1 00:00:01,050 --> 00:00:09,910 Hello, everyone. Hi. Oh, thank you so much for braving the weather and fighting the rain and being here. 2 00:00:09,910 --> 00:00:15,940 Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the second in seconds, Hillary time. 3 00:00:15,940 --> 00:00:23,520 Yeah, yeah. OK. Oxford lingo is lost on many of us. 4 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,050 So welcome. Welcome. And we're really grateful that you you made it here today. 5 00:00:28,050 --> 00:00:32,450 For those who are joining us for the first time, a very warm welcome. 6 00:00:32,450 --> 00:00:38,760 Our folks in the skies are really the most exciting thing you could be doing on a Friday afternoon. 7 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:44,970 And for those who haven't been here, for those who are regulars, I folks, my folks, people where you are. 8 00:00:44,970 --> 00:00:48,660 Yes, regulars, regulars. Regulars. Yours truly. 9 00:00:48,660 --> 00:00:52,800 Thank you very much for keeping on supporting the work that we do. 10 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:57,900 The other folks. What initiative really seeks to pull together Africa interest across the university? 11 00:00:57,900 --> 00:01:02,370 And our main goal is to make engagement with Africa a strategic priority for Oxford. 12 00:01:02,370 --> 00:01:07,560 And your presence here shows how important that is. So thank you so much for coming. 13 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:12,870 You're not here to hear me speak, so allow me to introduce our speakers for today. 14 00:01:12,870 --> 00:01:24,150 Every Sucka special to today is super special. We have a speaker from the other place, but our first speaker today is one of our own. 15 00:01:24,150 --> 00:01:32,970 Malcolm and Professor Malcolm is really an interesting fellow and we just discovered that he has the skill to be in two places at the same time. 16 00:01:32,970 --> 00:01:41,430 So what you're seeing here is not what you see. Malcolm is an engineer, is an associate professor in engineering and science. 17 00:01:41,430 --> 00:01:46,980 He's been the head co-director for the Oxford Martin programme on integrating renewable energy. 18 00:01:46,980 --> 00:01:54,780 He does everything from domestic energy in domestic energy sector and so forth, and renewable energy energy for development. 19 00:01:54,780 --> 00:01:58,770 Anything that has energy to it. He's probably involved in it. 20 00:01:58,770 --> 00:02:04,830 Most importantly, he's going to be the guy who will save us from energy bills because he's doing something in Oxford, 21 00:02:04,830 --> 00:02:19,260 and I'm hoping he will touch a little bit on that. So with the very hot to are folks welcome, please, let's welcome back. 22 00:02:19,260 --> 00:02:39,500 Let's see if we can get the technology working, the. 23 00:02:39,500 --> 00:02:45,950 Here you go, Ray Rice. 24 00:02:45,950 --> 00:02:52,910 Welcome, everybody. This is a first for me in a number of ways. 25 00:02:52,910 --> 00:03:00,320 One is that the first time I'm actually trying to be deliberately provocative and for myself, which is not my usual staff. 26 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:07,570 And secondly, I'm talking about stuff I'm not gonna work on yet. 27 00:03:07,570 --> 00:03:15,200 So which is kind of unusual. But what I'm trying to do is actually on a very far, very, very hard question. 28 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,490 Yes, I was thinking about it that I had not come to the final conclusions yet. 29 00:03:19,490 --> 00:03:21,320 So this is kind of like a work in progress. 30 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:26,930 And I thought, actually, there might be some really interesting conversations report from you guys as well to see, Okay, 31 00:03:26,930 --> 00:03:36,470 there's a there might be a rounded way of looking at this question, and the provocative question I'm asking is, is energy bad for Africa? 32 00:03:36,470 --> 00:03:44,090 Now, normally that's a topic that the Nobel talked about today because of course, energy got to be good for Africa, OK? 33 00:03:44,090 --> 00:03:50,120 But yes, the but there's a lot of evidence that we like to ignore. 34 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:57,770 There's actually things might not be so great. So what I wanted to do was the first one called Gates to say, Let's have a look. 35 00:03:57,770 --> 00:04:02,660 It's very broad, sketchy outline of what some of the issues might be. 36 00:04:02,660 --> 00:04:10,580 Then to say, I'm going to take a course in Tanzania parable to help us relook at the problem. 37 00:04:10,580 --> 00:04:18,830 They don't want to relook and say, OK, maybe there's a different way of approaching the problems and we might get our way out of it. 38 00:04:18,830 --> 00:04:24,650 OK, those of you have been in my thoughts as well know that this is never just the talk about me. 39 00:04:24,650 --> 00:04:26,660 You guys get involved as well. 40 00:04:26,660 --> 00:04:33,860 So this is no different, but you've got you going to use 30 seconds of my precious time talking about the person next to you to say, 41 00:04:33,860 --> 00:04:41,640 what is the biggest challenge that's putting Africa from flattery to loving Africa should flourish. 42 00:04:41,640 --> 00:05:16,230 What are the biggest challenges? You've got 30 seconds talking to each other. Go introduce yourself and talk. 43 00:05:16,230 --> 00:05:21,790 Right. The. OK. 44 00:05:21,790 --> 00:05:31,650 I'm hoping that one of the things you didn't say, OK, I hope, was that you did not say is that the people are very unfriendly in Africa. 45 00:05:31,650 --> 00:05:36,140 You. Walked through the think? Yeah. Okay, right. 46 00:05:36,140 --> 00:05:42,880 So some of you may have said some thoughts about it, and hopefully that is perhaps the ultimate way of thinking about where I'm coming from. 47 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:48,160 I guess I don't fall behind that, and what I do is decide who's come out of the macroeconomic dialogue. 48 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,360 Just remember, I'm a stupid engineer and just remember that. 49 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,950 So I'm going to be talking about economics a little bit, but it's just to kind of it. 50 00:05:56,950 --> 00:05:59,890 It's all thinking about the issues. So what are the results said? 51 00:05:59,890 --> 00:06:06,640 Okay, I knew that if I did this talk about a month ago in my mind, but really from the bottom would be done. 52 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:17,250 So what are the is that sporadically over the way I was looking at the Financial Times and just picking up any article about Africa and energy? 53 00:06:17,250 --> 00:06:27,640 OK. So just to start with, you give a little support that there are some people up on the hill, you know, softer than bullish on oil prospects. 54 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:35,860 Sounds brilliant. Yeah. Okay. This is one of the some of the little details yet reduced oil revenues and energy management both on the border, 55 00:06:35,860 --> 00:06:44,650 but particularly the that fell by 80 percent hold on eighty five percent in one year. 56 00:06:44,650 --> 00:06:55,570 Why? Because of the oil price falling and what happened to protest and some serious challenges. 57 00:06:55,570 --> 00:07:01,750 So this is a good news story, but underneath it, actually this the spot at the point of all of this. 58 00:07:01,750 --> 00:07:06,400 And if you're sitting in here, what's going on? OK, so that's that's the Gulf oil. 59 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:12,850 One example to some of you may come across in Algeria and you know the that happened here. 60 00:07:12,850 --> 00:07:17,200 So that was West Africa. This is a part of East Africa. This is kind of North Africa. 61 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,040 If you haven't done here, we go to the wrong place. 62 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:28,720 But then she points out new economic elites have grown rich of infrastructure projects funded by petrodollars. 63 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:36,490 Do you call them for corruption? Where's the funding from energy? 64 00:07:36,490 --> 00:07:40,870 Is that a great thing for Africa? I'm not sure. OK? 65 00:07:40,870 --> 00:07:44,290 And is my favourite one, and I have to declare an interest in this one. 66 00:07:44,290 --> 00:07:56,170 I was most likely to be quite modest as the South African power company because they lost four point sixty four point eight billion dollars, 67 00:07:56,170 --> 00:08:05,290 bailed out Eskom, the gas and electrical company, electrical utility and supposedly one of the strongest economies in Africa. 68 00:08:05,290 --> 00:08:10,780 And yet the utility is having to be bailed out by four point eight billion dollars. 69 00:08:10,780 --> 00:08:15,700 OK, and some of you might know some of the backstory behind it. 70 00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:19,250 OK. And you can see that Cyril Ramaphosa is trying to sort it out, 71 00:08:19,250 --> 00:08:24,790 and you can realise that it's Cyril Ramaphosa trying to sort it out, not his predecessor. 72 00:08:24,790 --> 00:08:30,850 OK. So curiously, he's actually on a macro level, 73 00:08:30,850 --> 00:08:36,370 and these are not only these are only three articles of the foreign and energy, none of them had a good news story. 74 00:08:36,370 --> 00:08:42,550 OK, thank goodness they're not looking for any book like this is what's going on here. 75 00:08:42,550 --> 00:08:45,310 So that's a macro at the macro level. 76 00:08:45,310 --> 00:08:51,910 I'm going to go with another focussed mainly on this point here that some of the ideas will translate through to other energy systems as well. 77 00:08:51,910 --> 00:08:58,270 But let's just concentrate on the business side. I want to look at more specifics at the micro levels. 78 00:08:58,270 --> 00:09:02,110 We finished off with the utility. I'm going to carry on with the utility side below the liquid effect. 79 00:09:02,110 --> 00:09:12,580 You'll see it. My company bearer of a utility that's in Kenya and undergoing a massive electrification process. 80 00:09:12,580 --> 00:09:22,660 Well, sounds great. OK, except you know, the issue cost them about a thousand dollars per home to electrify. 81 00:09:22,660 --> 00:09:35,680 OK, the average consumption for the homes that are being that you buy after three years is around about 250 kilowatt hours. 82 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:42,150 To give you a rough idea in the UK, average is about 50 kilowatt hours a day. 83 00:09:42,150 --> 00:09:49,990 OK, there's 50 kilowatt hours and this is four. This is the average consumption tool for the rich people for low cost and low 84 00:09:49,990 --> 00:09:54,460 in the rural areas that goes down to something like 10 kilowatt hours a day. 85 00:09:54,460 --> 00:10:06,080 And if they charge you something, why they'll be earning something like seven or eight per kilowatt hour because they're not buying right? 86 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:14,440 I got used to the to. What happens is that the infrastructure project is done on bank loans, international bank loans. 87 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:22,020 They are not. They're not to pay. A couple that actually they're getting sort of a huge debt trap. 88 00:10:22,020 --> 00:10:28,050 And then in serious trouble, and they are also going to go bankrupt, pretty faithful to slavery, OK? 89 00:10:28,050 --> 00:10:36,450 And in fact, it's interesting is that they're all very, very, very few utilities in Africa that are not bankrupt at the moment. 90 00:10:36,450 --> 00:10:41,830 So at the individual company level? Right? OK. 91 00:10:41,830 --> 00:10:47,370 Let's look for some good news and use the benefits. 92 00:10:47,370 --> 00:10:51,030 OK. So what does that say when you're not smoky room? 93 00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:56,400 Why the smoky? Because we're cooking. OK, so because that's a classic. 94 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,960 We have three things that we've all been there done right? 95 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:06,330 And one of the interesting questions that means that surely electrification will be good for end users. 96 00:11:06,330 --> 00:11:09,600 Well, some of you know the work that's done on Berkeley, 97 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:16,960 they've been looking at Kenya and I've been talking to guys in Kenya and others, and we corroborate this. 98 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:25,020 This finding is that I'm looking at electrification benefits to many users across three 99 00:11:25,020 --> 00:11:32,250 different metrics a model of financial uplift because they were they brought electricity. 100 00:11:32,250 --> 00:11:37,950 Secondly was health improvements because he's not having to have that. 101 00:11:37,950 --> 00:11:42,630 And the third one was educational and educational attainment. 102 00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:46,260 And what they do is the amount full price that they look to have in. 103 00:11:46,260 --> 00:11:54,060 I think about 10 different regions in Kenya of people who were off grid and weren't connected in the same. 104 00:11:54,060 --> 00:12:00,680 It will play area. Those who were connected and looked at what the documents are. 105 00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:05,040 Let's talk with financial attainable financial increases. 106 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:15,780 Statistically, no difference between those who are connected and those who weren't connected of health attainment. 107 00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:21,000 Same story, no matter what's going on here. 108 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:28,320 Educational attainment negative. OK, hold on. 109 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,920 Let me say that if you it's good for people, what's going on here? 110 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:39,840 What does that tell you to experience? Well, what I did was this happened. Well, electricity is expensive, so to cook. 111 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:45,660 We're using a lot of energy. It's very expensive. If you think about your 10 kilowatt hours that you brought in, that's one. 112 00:12:45,660 --> 00:12:49,140 Must you become a millionaire? Yeah. So they run using it for cooking. 113 00:12:49,140 --> 00:12:57,450 And in fact, one of the things I noticed is that we're doing some projects like we saw a y going into the house and smoke Panopto. 114 00:12:57,450 --> 00:13:05,070 Yeah, because I was told to be finished with it because electricity is too expensive for it to to do the cooking. 115 00:13:05,070 --> 00:13:19,220 Second one is if you looked at financial outcomes who thought that giving somebody electricity would turn them into an entrepreneur doesn't. 116 00:13:19,220 --> 00:13:23,460 You need something else to enable people to become entrepreneurial. 117 00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:31,370 And thirdly, increasingly important is I've worked in schools in Africa from when I was quite young, 118 00:13:31,370 --> 00:13:36,060 and I know that when kids want to learn, they will learn. No matter what. 119 00:13:36,060 --> 00:13:40,100 Yeah, it doesn't matter you. They don't know. Like whatever they will, 120 00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:44,170 they have a little call and they will be looking at and they will be doing their best to 121 00:13:44,170 --> 00:13:49,010 learn because we do not really want to learn what happens when you put electricity in. 122 00:13:49,010 --> 00:13:54,170 It is not going to copy where you're going to be. So what are we not going to do? 123 00:13:54,170 --> 00:14:00,330 How about tonight? I wonder just what markets you're listening and I'm on. 124 00:14:00,330 --> 00:14:05,290 Okay, so. So it hasn't all been slow enough. You've can't be saying, Okay, hold on. 125 00:14:05,290 --> 00:14:12,110 No. This is right. So although the education offering might be low, in other words, the quality exams and everything is great, 126 00:14:12,110 --> 00:14:15,710 at least they're being exposed to a wider world and the outlook is changed. 127 00:14:15,710 --> 00:14:18,300 So there's some positive there. And of course, 128 00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:27,220 they get to support their favourite premium football for football because what is the main thing that used in Kenya for TV is premiership football. 129 00:14:27,220 --> 00:14:31,400 Yeah, the soccer is the main thing. So it is a benefit. 130 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,020 Question mark, is that OK? 131 00:14:36,020 --> 00:14:45,530 So yeah, maybe then you can use that. 132 00:14:45,530 --> 00:14:50,630 And this is where I got to about midnight last night as this copyright. 133 00:14:50,630 --> 00:14:58,460 OK, so so it's a wisdom story that I came across many, many years ago and I thought I'd look for a picture from it. 134 00:14:58,460 --> 00:15:05,030 But suddenly discovered that actually, it wasn't for from Africa. I don't know if anybody knows the story. 135 00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:14,630 OK. You. It's about a trip of monkeys were living on the plains, and it's celebrating the rain and the rain and the right. 136 00:15:14,630 --> 00:15:19,790 And what happens is what the rivers flooded their bags and basically the water froze. 137 00:15:19,790 --> 00:15:25,130 But the monkeys were good enough. They could actually climb into the trees and they could get up to the higher ground. 138 00:15:25,130 --> 00:15:34,910 But what they to do that they noticed in the water, these other animals that was probably, you know, that the fish were struggling in the water. 139 00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:43,850 The monkey thought, You know this, this be good guys. And that's what we'll do is we will sweep the fish up and stop them from drowning. 140 00:15:43,850 --> 00:15:49,880 And that's what they did. And that felt really good about themselves to say, Hey, guys, we can skip these fish off. 141 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:55,070 Put them on on the backs and they we are not saving all the fish. 142 00:15:55,070 --> 00:16:01,250 My worry is, am I one of the monkeys saving the fish from drowning? 143 00:16:01,250 --> 00:16:07,240 Are we all in that category? Question mark. 144 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:12,970 All in all, when you said this was a good news story. Why is it even news? 145 00:16:12,970 --> 00:16:20,440 What went wrong? I told the person, next, you what went wrong with the story? 146 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:32,520 You got 10 seconds. Go quick, quick, quick. So. 147 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:48,330 All right. Of the. 148 00:16:48,330 --> 00:16:57,870 OK, maybe you can hold the same place that I painted, which was what was the mistake of the. 149 00:16:57,870 --> 00:17:04,740 They were saying the fish from the eyes of the monkey knocking on the fish. 150 00:17:04,740 --> 00:17:10,290 So maybe what we should be doing is looking at the problem through the eyes of the fish. 151 00:17:10,290 --> 00:17:16,740 OK, so that means can we relook at things slightly differently? OK, so here's where I get into trouble. 152 00:17:16,740 --> 00:17:27,850 OK? Anybody know who those two people are? If anybody sociologists, anybody economists call us? 153 00:17:27,850 --> 00:17:35,580 OK, so one of them is the founder of Geography. The other one's a prise, a Nobel prise winner in economics. 154 00:17:35,580 --> 00:17:39,630 OK. This guy is Max Faber. Oh, OK. 155 00:17:39,630 --> 00:17:50,700 Anybody other than a favour? Yeah, OK. And this is how this law is used for positive economics and why one of these two guys are 156 00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:56,940 the reason I these two guys off is because it's not because they are white males like me, 157 00:17:56,940 --> 00:18:00,330 but rather because they actually have some fun, interesting things to say. 158 00:18:00,330 --> 00:18:06,970 The first one was that Matt, very good, was working in the state, and he sees the state as a single outcome. 159 00:18:06,970 --> 00:18:15,750 OK, so he sees the state as a single actor, and the primary thing is is that he sees that the state has a monopoly over force. 160 00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:21,780 In other words, the state controls the police and the military. 161 00:18:21,780 --> 00:18:30,260 And what they are doing that is they are using that will not be a force to reduce the amount of violence in the society. 162 00:18:30,260 --> 00:18:36,450 Yeah, because basically, if you think about what are the courts of law and police and all that type of things to do is to 163 00:18:36,450 --> 00:18:41,670 basically make sure that if you wanted to get somebody else's retribution against you by the state, 164 00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:50,040 I guess it's not minimises the whole thing is designed to minimise violence and other things where you the world. 165 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,610 Basically, everybody has access to all institutions, 166 00:18:53,610 --> 00:19:01,110 and this system in the broadest sense of the things basically means anybody can become a lawyer and businessman as long as they've got the capability. 167 00:19:01,110 --> 00:19:06,090 It's not who they know, it's what they know and what the capabilities are. 168 00:19:06,090 --> 00:19:10,380 And that's part of what my when I was until about a month ago. 169 00:19:10,380 --> 00:19:15,120 That's how you do. The whole world was like this, OK? 170 00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:25,170 And you kind of think that. And that's because the fact is, we live in a kind of full us into what we think of what the world is along comes north. 171 00:19:25,170 --> 00:19:30,930 And he says, actually, the Van Dam demonstrates is really, really unusual. 172 00:19:30,930 --> 00:19:40,740 It's an oddity. It's not normality the usual way because you actually have multiple actors, each having access to force. 173 00:19:40,740 --> 00:19:49,560 OK, so for those of you in the UK, you can think about the barriers, you know, each of the variants that are in the warming internet access. 174 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:55,830 Because if you go to something like inner city London at the moment, you think of the games, 175 00:19:55,830 --> 00:20:01,440 each of those that taxes the police, if you go to something like Africa, you can think of the different tribes. 176 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,220 Each of them had access to that kind of military army. 177 00:20:04,220 --> 00:20:17,590 And looking at that and what he says is that actually what they do is you have an elite who basically control that force in that particular area. 178 00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:22,860 And if I use the UK example, you are the baron he's about, it didn't talk to the army. 179 00:20:22,860 --> 00:20:26,770 I've seen it where you go to Kenya and the guy guys running the charcoal things is that you 180 00:20:26,770 --> 00:20:31,170 got one guy who actually controls a strong man and they control the top called hotspots. 181 00:20:31,170 --> 00:20:40,590 Same, same same principle. OK. And what these guys do is those elites limit access to functions. 182 00:20:40,590 --> 00:20:49,530 OK, so they they provide doors to closed door, just normal people get the access and access things. 183 00:20:49,530 --> 00:21:02,310 How do those doors open? My money because they seek rent to minimise violence. 184 00:21:02,310 --> 00:21:12,390 OK, so what they do is by having access. You then have a mechanism to create money and to make it worth your while to have this whole equal pay. 185 00:21:12,390 --> 00:21:16,800 Because you think about how you pay, you've got to make money. 186 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:24,840 No, we're why don't to pay for stuff because we have this phrase which was just like, just help to the ground, he said. 187 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:32,820 In these societies, you need to have rent seeking in order to minimise violence. 188 00:21:32,820 --> 00:21:37,290 Remember my very first logical? What happened? 189 00:21:37,290 --> 00:21:44,220 We said that we lost the money. What happened? Violence. We lost the ability to see create violence. 190 00:21:44,220 --> 00:21:49,890 And. OK, so this was going. 191 00:21:49,890 --> 00:21:54,750 OK, so so now this is actually in the world we working in. 192 00:21:54,750 --> 00:21:59,640 This is something we have the technical now. Let me just say this is not just an African problem. 193 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,440 You've got to look through the thought look through the empty. 194 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:07,740 Today, there were five articles of Western companies and cultures exhibiting this type of behaviour. 195 00:22:07,740 --> 00:22:14,580 It's not just an African problem, it's it's. And remember, Noel said, this is the normal sector. 196 00:22:14,580 --> 00:22:20,520 So given that that's that's we've got to think things on the macro side, we've got to rethink whatever we do. 197 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,350 We got to make sure we rub along with this and not make it worse. 198 00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:34,080 But if we can stop this, if we stop the rent Typekit taking it, potentially increasing violence now, that's an interesting and hard question. 199 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:40,810 I haven't resolved that one yet. Oops. The wrong way. We were micro-level. 200 00:22:40,810 --> 00:22:50,670 This is what we think of as water utilities, and that's basically one of the largest new coal stations being built in South Africa. 201 00:22:50,670 --> 00:22:59,520 But I can say the equivalent London, and this could be the STEVE here, basically very large projects in order to do large scale energy. 202 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:04,380 The reason we do that is because we think this is what they used to look like. 203 00:23:04,380 --> 00:23:13,110 Yeah, that we need lots of energy, all the fastest. And this is if you think about the way the energy infrastructure has been designed in Africa, 204 00:23:13,110 --> 00:23:19,290 it's got this model behind this large scale infrastructure to do large-scale industry. 205 00:23:19,290 --> 00:23:26,160 And that's not necessarily true. So how do we think things through? 206 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:33,030 So I think it's to say that what we're going to do is going to sit back from those models and rethink things a little more carefully. 207 00:23:33,030 --> 00:23:38,410 So my conclusion to this is actually six questions. 208 00:23:38,410 --> 00:23:43,740 OK, first question. That's more like the use that we should be thinking about. 209 00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:46,440 This is actually a community development. 210 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:54,450 And the key thing is we should be working with the community to understand what does university if those benefits all? 211 00:23:54,450 --> 00:24:02,550 And how do we design a system to meet those benefits, not the benefits of what we thought earlier on. 212 00:24:02,550 --> 00:24:08,100 The second question is to say energy is only part of the solution. 213 00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:14,670 Remember a set of art? You don't become entrepreneur without it just because you put an energy system. 214 00:24:14,670 --> 00:24:17,880 So the solution is we'll put some training schemes around that. 215 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,360 So you create entrepreneurs alongside that or you create better farming 216 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:25,110 techniques so you create ways of actually doing your distribution of your goods. 217 00:24:25,110 --> 00:24:29,160 You've got to think about this not just as an energy thing, having one of the problems that we have, 218 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:35,670 but I have to say this is funders as well as for the practitioners, is we tend to think about silos. 219 00:24:35,670 --> 00:24:40,110 So how many times have gone up to particularly areas and you find this is about education? 220 00:24:40,110 --> 00:24:44,460 And then then you go to another committee, had one of our energy. No one is about water. 221 00:24:44,460 --> 00:24:48,930 Never in the same place. Because if we don't, the joined up thinking into that. 222 00:24:48,930 --> 00:24:53,940 Actually, it's a whole problem we need to be solving simultaneously. 223 00:24:53,940 --> 00:25:05,110 But the good news is to say, actually, because of things like solar technology, this is my power station now cost me up to $7000 to make. 224 00:25:05,110 --> 00:25:10,320 OK. It's still high, but it's not the billion dollars that the other one is costing. 225 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:21,390 OK. So because of the way says technologies improving economies, that capital is becoming less of a barrier to entry to create an energy system. 226 00:25:21,390 --> 00:25:26,280 So how does that allow us to rethink things through and specifically goes on to the next questions to say, 227 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,930 Well, look, the role of a utility anyway doesn't need to be a big scale thing. 228 00:25:30,930 --> 00:25:38,800 Can it be a community interest group? For me, the best utility dinosaur was when I was working in BP, in northern Uganda, in the refugee camp. 229 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:50,820 They were a group of five guys with a lot on solar panel, a battery, and they had created an invisibility, a music centre, a game centre. 230 00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:56,120 And for the women, I had lot. 231 00:25:56,120 --> 00:26:05,780 With one panel. So you can decide, actually, maybe utility is more than just a scintilla of utility, it's providing a range of goods. 232 00:26:05,780 --> 00:26:12,560 So you've got to rethink about what do we mean by. And then the next question is to say, 233 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:19,710 how do we think of two government structures because government structures are often the way that we ensure we can see great. 234 00:26:19,710 --> 00:26:33,390 And that's, I think, what regulators under a Bavarian state regulators of that to ensure that users on mistreated prison, 235 00:26:33,390 --> 00:26:39,370 an audience site, they basically there as a way of accessing right. 236 00:26:39,370 --> 00:26:45,980 It becomes not anybody know what this is to soccer. 237 00:26:45,980 --> 00:26:50,570 And actually a community, that governance mechanism might be the way that we go to think about, for instance, 238 00:26:50,570 --> 00:26:56,180 to say, how do we actually work with alongside African cultures, to say, how do we actually do things? 239 00:26:56,180 --> 00:27:03,110 And the last piece is to say, maybe what you should be looking at is a way of having a much more distributed energy system. 240 00:27:03,110 --> 00:27:10,370 So it's much harder to gain large amounts of rent, actually small amount of retyping along the way. 241 00:27:10,370 --> 00:27:16,090 It's probably good for things, good for people because it allows for build-up of capital is actually wasted. 242 00:27:16,090 --> 00:27:27,480 I'm convinced it's controversial, but anyway, so in the end, it's maybe the way we view energy for Africa is that energy itself. 243 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:33,934 And that's my conclusion. Thank you very much, Robert.