1 00:00:00,450 --> 00:00:13,530 As Julie mentioned, they the debates around decolonising museums has really come to Oxford as a very lively conversation over the past few months. 2 00:00:13,530 --> 00:00:18,420 It's been present in Mainland Europe for a little while. 3 00:00:18,420 --> 00:00:32,340 The Dutch have been really quite enthusiastically discussing how best to approach rebalancing museum collections for some time now for many years. 4 00:00:32,340 --> 00:00:39,360 And the Germans also, to a degree and particularly in my own area of natural history, 5 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,900 have been discussing decolonisation of natural history collections, 6 00:00:42,900 --> 00:00:49,860 natural history collections, or perhaps a little later to the table than the collections based on human artefacts, 7 00:00:49,860 --> 00:00:54,600 but the same principles nevertheless apply. 8 00:00:54,600 --> 00:01:05,660 And then everything is very much accelerated in recent months, mainly due to President Macron's statements about the French policy on repatriation, 9 00:01:05,660 --> 00:01:14,310 and I was fortunate enough to be a debate and international debate at the Museum of American Art in Berlin last November, 10 00:01:14,310 --> 00:01:24,690 when there were representatives from Kenya and beginning to have that dialogue about the best approaches in Oxford. 11 00:01:24,690 --> 00:01:30,570 This discussion has been led very much by Lowry from Brookhaven, who very unfortunately can't be with us today. 12 00:01:30,570 --> 00:01:38,730 For those of you who don't know her. She's the director of the Rivers Museum, which of course, is very actively engaged in this discussion. 13 00:01:38,730 --> 00:01:49,090 And given Laura's professional ancestry where she she works until three years ago in the Leiden museums, 14 00:01:49,090 --> 00:01:53,670 she's very familiar with this debate and very passionate about this debate. 15 00:01:53,670 --> 00:02:01,080 So across the gardens, libraries and museums in Oxford, glum we've begun to see very actively discussed this. 16 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:15,300 It's been laid out in his museum, and they are currently developing a draught policy for decolonising at decolonising policy for the Oxford museums. 17 00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:19,320 It will be adopted in the rivers as a first step, 18 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:27,180 and it will be fine tuned iteratively to make sure that it takes into account all of the different voices 19 00:02:27,180 --> 00:02:33,900 in this debate and then will begin to look at how it can be rolled out across the different museums. 20 00:02:33,900 --> 00:02:39,780 Initially, because the debate affects all of our collections, 21 00:02:39,780 --> 00:02:46,710 whether it's natural history or the archaeology in the Ashmolean or the collections and the rivers. 22 00:02:46,710 --> 00:02:56,640 Perhaps less so in the history of Science Museum, it became very life is a discussion for us in the past few weeks when we were on the 23 00:02:56,640 --> 00:03:04,740 fringes of a biopiracy discussion and and material that was collected in Sarawak, 24 00:03:04,740 --> 00:03:09,390 for which the the presence of the necessary permits was debateable. 25 00:03:09,390 --> 00:03:16,380 And so there was very active discussion about bio piracy in the leading science magazine science. 26 00:03:16,380 --> 00:03:24,390 And then that was picked up by the New York Times and the Times. So this is a debate that we're going to come to. 27 00:03:24,390 --> 00:03:29,160 With increasing frequency, I think, over the next few weeks, months and years. 28 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:36,570 And as Julia mentioned, it's really important that this is a dialogue, not a Eurocentric monotone conversation. 29 00:03:36,570 --> 00:03:43,320 So it's particularly welcome that you're here tonight to give us your perspective, and I'll hand over this point. 30 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:49,560 Thank you very much, Professor Smith. Thank you all of you for coming here. 31 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:57,540 It's really a very good honour for me to be here talking about conditions that have our home, that initial home in Africa, 32 00:03:57,540 --> 00:04:08,100 and that across different parts of Europe and also beyond Europe, the US and Australia in other parts of the world. 33 00:04:08,100 --> 00:04:17,310 I must say it's a very these are very interesting times to me and I believe most of us because the world is beginning 34 00:04:17,310 --> 00:04:29,190 to realise the need for truly the world to become a global village as opposed to to having a big or small brother. 35 00:04:29,190 --> 00:04:40,590 And I must say that this particular debate is very welcome in Africa by virtually all of the museums, 36 00:04:40,590 --> 00:04:45,660 as as far as I know it will come in Kenya is will come in, 37 00:04:45,660 --> 00:04:58,140 believe in South Africa and in western Africa, where we have lots of artwork in museums across across Europe and across even beyond Europe. 38 00:04:58,140 --> 00:05:03,710 But I think as we. Look into this debate and move forward in this debate. 39 00:05:03,710 --> 00:05:10,460 I think we need to ask ourselves some very hard questions. How did these coalitions end up in Europe? 40 00:05:10,460 --> 00:05:19,310 I think it's fair to ask ourselves that very hard question how do these coalitions find their way in Europe? 41 00:05:19,310 --> 00:05:27,020 We know the east of Africa. We know we have. Most of us, I believe we are familiar with how Africa was colonised. 42 00:05:27,020 --> 00:05:36,980 And this map clearly shows how the European nations are partitioned Africa and and and and really, 43 00:05:36,980 --> 00:05:47,300 really were able to push Africa sometimes into some very bad and very, very often restrictions. 44 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:52,400 And a good example is Kenya, where I come from and also South Africa. 45 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:59,480 We all know that when the British colonies Kenya, a lot of people lost their lives, many people. 46 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:00,970 And there's been a debate, in fact, 47 00:06:00,970 --> 00:06:13,520 in Kenya as to how feel the UK or Britain or England can compensate for the many lives of Kenyans that we have lost those many years ago. 48 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:24,530 I was talking to my wife, who is here, Grace, and I say that my my grandfather was killed when he, when he, 49 00:06:24,530 --> 00:06:38,270 when he was fighting for the British and and my mom was, I think my grandfather was killed six months after my mum was was born. 50 00:06:38,270 --> 00:06:43,970 So in fact, my mom never saw how her father sold. 51 00:06:43,970 --> 00:06:49,430 I, six months old, is a very and you no sense of will you or your dad is? 52 00:06:49,430 --> 00:06:54,440 So these are questions that a lot of people ask ourselves. Really? 53 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,130 Yes, it happens. And we kind of go back into that past. 54 00:06:58,130 --> 00:07:06,180 So it's it's a terrible past that that's really we have to live with. And to me, being able to to stand in front of you, 55 00:07:06,180 --> 00:07:15,980 all of you and talk about really how wonderful it is to see European nations taking a leading role in this debate. 56 00:07:15,980 --> 00:07:26,600 To me, it's wonderful. Wonderful. I know museums across Africa lost a lot of I mean, countries across Africa lost a lot of collections. 57 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,800 West Africa is is it's one one big area. 58 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:36,770 They lost a lot of artwork. Mali, Sierra Leone, Benin and Ghana. 59 00:07:36,770 --> 00:07:46,440 Fossil on Nigeria and Ethiopia also lost a good chunk of their artwork on eastern Africa. 60 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:51,110 Are we lost? We lost a lot of our natural history collections. 61 00:07:51,110 --> 00:08:04,610 Kenya's mummy is one of them. Even today, some of our collection, some of our fossil collections are deposited in museums in here in the UK. 62 00:08:04,610 --> 00:08:13,160 The Natural History Museum. We have some wonderful fossils that are two catalogued in in museums here of Tanzania. 63 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:18,320 Our neighbour, one of them, one of the very famous dinosaur. 64 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:23,570 I know we, we we all know it's an exhibition at the British Museum of Natural History. 65 00:08:23,570 --> 00:08:32,780 And a few years a few years ago, I went to the museum and I was able to engage the the DG, the director general, Prof. 66 00:08:32,780 --> 00:08:39,140 Vogel and I spent a lot of time talking talking about these collections with him. 67 00:08:39,140 --> 00:08:47,820 And this is a clear indication that all of us need to engage with one another South Africa. 68 00:08:47,820 --> 00:08:52,100 I'm sure I believe this to this to have collections housed in different parts of the world. 69 00:08:52,100 --> 00:08:54,530 South Africa has some collections house in Australia. 70 00:08:54,530 --> 00:09:01,630 When I was preparing for this talk, I was I didn't know that that Australia also has collections from Africa, 71 00:09:01,630 --> 00:09:10,490 and I learnt about this a few days ago that some collections from from South Africa are held in museums in Australia. 72 00:09:10,490 --> 00:09:16,040 So it's really an issue that that all of us need to debate. 73 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:28,700 And this month is so but as possible, because I think it's a debate that we really have to to face and in in a subtle way because as African museums, 74 00:09:28,700 --> 00:09:36,920 we we need to go on the drawing on the table discussion because table really Sobha to 75 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:43,490 the to the to ensure that we don't really go and go there with the history of the past, 76 00:09:43,490 --> 00:09:45,410 in our minds or in our hearts. 77 00:09:45,410 --> 00:09:56,240 We need to face all the reality as some very hard questions and really move on this particular discussion in the right way possible. 78 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:07,420 I know, I know, I know this is a debate and I didn't. Place in Europe, the French President Macron has really done very well in leading this debate, 79 00:10:07,420 --> 00:10:18,130 and I was very surprised today to learn to read in the papers that Italy was not very happy with this debate that that Macron erased the other day, 80 00:10:18,130 --> 00:10:22,330 that some nations in Europe that are not very happy with the debate. 81 00:10:22,330 --> 00:10:27,490 But I'm also very happy to see these countries are very happy to see the Germany, 82 00:10:27,490 --> 00:10:34,630 Netherlands and other countries really leading the way in this debate and asking themselves some very hard questions. 83 00:10:34,630 --> 00:10:43,990 What can we do to really, really change that history and help repatriate these collections to Africa? 84 00:10:43,990 --> 00:10:52,630 And even I'm also aware that, in fact, that some of the coalitions from Chile also held in museums in Europe, Chile, Greece. 85 00:10:52,630 --> 00:10:58,480 So these coalitions are not just from Africa, they are from other other countries across the world. 86 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,100 So I'm pretty sure that this debate, as we debate about the African coalitions, 87 00:11:03,100 --> 00:11:12,100 other other countries like Greece and Chile was, will be able to come come on board into this discussion. 88 00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:19,570 But the hard questions that we need to ask ourselves, do we just want to take the collections to Africa? 89 00:11:19,570 --> 00:11:25,450 The question may be no, I think we need to ask some very hard questions. 90 00:11:25,450 --> 00:11:36,670 It's one thing taking the collections to Africa and another another thing ensuring that these collections are survive in Africa for posterity. 91 00:11:36,670 --> 00:11:42,310 Most African nations have a lot of challenges, a lot of challenges. 92 00:11:42,310 --> 00:11:47,470 The history of Africa didn't really play very well for the continent. 93 00:11:47,470 --> 00:11:56,830 We we every country in Africa with grappling with different challenges, economic challenges, political challenges, social challenges. 94 00:11:56,830 --> 00:12:07,630 So most missions, most governments in Africa may not have the resources to take care of those collections just before before I came for this talk. 95 00:12:07,630 --> 00:12:18,820 Originally, the news that the government of Sudan has been toppled a few minutes ago Al Bashir al-Bashir is gone. 96 00:12:18,820 --> 00:12:31,630 So now if you if you if you, if you, if this country here had collections from from Sudan, the question is, is the new the transitional government? 97 00:12:31,630 --> 00:12:37,850 Are they going to be ready to engage in those discussions when they have all these other issues? 98 00:12:37,850 --> 00:12:44,110 There's a question of when you ask ourselves, Kenya, where I come from, we we are very fortunate. 99 00:12:44,110 --> 00:12:49,960 We have one of the biggest museums of, say, in Africa or even even what over a wonderful museum. 100 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,460 And I'm very proud to really be a Kenyan. 101 00:12:54,460 --> 00:13:01,220 We have a wonderful museum that has wonderful collections that draws people from all over the world or come to study the collections. 102 00:13:01,220 --> 00:13:11,590 We have wonderful collections, archaeological collections, Palio collections are botanical collections and we are a big, big museum. 103 00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:17,050 But it's too we have a lot of challenges as a museum. 104 00:13:17,050 --> 00:13:22,720 We have a lot of challenges as a museum. We have issues to do with space. 105 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:29,410 Where do we? Where do we what we stole our collections like in the next 10 years? 106 00:13:29,410 --> 00:13:33,550 We have issues to do with all your old. 107 00:13:33,550 --> 00:13:35,440 We take care of those collections. 108 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:45,160 You may have this space, but you also need some like financial support to curate the collections, to take care of the collections and all that. 109 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:57,220 So. So if you were to ask for the return of old fossil collections housed in museums in Europe, are we going to have the capacity? 110 00:13:57,220 --> 00:14:01,900 The answer is yes, and sometimes no. 111 00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:12,010 Our museum may have some capacity because the government supports us in some way because like our government pays for salaries, so. 112 00:14:12,010 --> 00:14:19,360 So at least we'll be able to take care of the collections. But there come a time when we may not have the resources to curate the collections 113 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:26,140 and and and as more collections come into the labs from the different projects, 114 00:14:26,140 --> 00:14:38,760 then run out of space. In fact, right now, one of the issues that we are facing. 115 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:49,330 Is this issue of space in a museum and and on the Kennedy government are together with the National Museum of Kenya, 116 00:14:49,330 --> 00:15:01,710 we we've we've not embarked on a very ambitious campaign to raise funds and resources to to build a new research and the centre. 117 00:15:01,710 --> 00:15:06,990 The government is supporting us in this particular initiative, but I'm in, I'm in, I'm in. 118 00:15:06,990 --> 00:15:11,070 Governments across Africa will have this as a priority. 119 00:15:11,070 --> 00:15:19,800 Very few, very few countries, other other countries like Benin, which is a very, very poor country. 120 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:25,650 Other countries like Mali, Mali, they are having a lot of issues. They are munitions all over the place. 121 00:15:25,650 --> 00:15:33,870 There is no way Mali will think about a beautiful facility like this because they they have to do the issues, 122 00:15:33,870 --> 00:15:44,370 the issues of insecurity and the militias all over the place. So you really have to take all the artwork that are housed in Europe to Mali. 123 00:15:44,370 --> 00:15:46,350 That government will face a lot of challenges. 124 00:15:46,350 --> 00:15:56,250 So I think I think what I'm trying to say is as this debate moves forward, we need to ask ourselves, is it the right time to do this, to do this? 125 00:15:56,250 --> 00:16:03,780 The answer may be yes, but then ask ourselves then what needs to be done for these two to do? 126 00:16:03,780 --> 00:16:07,500 What will we need to worry? 127 00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:12,390 And I was very happy to hear Professor Smith talking about how Germany and other 128 00:16:12,390 --> 00:16:18,270 countries coming up with some policies now on how this process will be moved. 129 00:16:18,270 --> 00:16:26,490 Policies that that will that will ensure that it's are a smooth transition 130 00:16:26,490 --> 00:16:34,050 through the departure of the collections from from Europe all the way to Africa. 131 00:16:34,050 --> 00:16:37,050 And I think those policies need to be put in place. 132 00:16:37,050 --> 00:16:48,670 And that's why the museums are the African museums, the African governments and the European governments that hold African collections, 133 00:16:48,670 --> 00:17:00,990 neutral goods that African governments as much as possible. I think it has to be a two way traffic kind of a discussion whereby there is need to be 134 00:17:00,990 --> 00:17:07,590 proper engagements between between the UK government and Kenya and other countries, 135 00:17:07,590 --> 00:17:17,850 and also between the different museums. Because the government may not come off the nitty-gritty of picture of the very the very clear picture 136 00:17:17,850 --> 00:17:23,670 of how things are on the ground because those are those are those are because they lead from the top. 137 00:17:23,670 --> 00:17:31,350 But the coalition manages those guys all together, coalitions the research as they have a wonderful picture of all things out of the ground. 138 00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:41,370 So these discussions need to involve the the administrators are the government officials and also the curators who take care 139 00:17:41,370 --> 00:17:51,090 of those collections because they understand the all the challenges that they face on a daily basis as the as the cure rate. 140 00:17:51,090 --> 00:18:04,770 These these collections, then a very good example of of how these discussions should go has been given by Tanzania, Tanzania. 141 00:18:04,770 --> 00:18:15,650 They have. Be that. 142 00:18:15,650 --> 00:18:24,300 Sorry about that. OK. 143 00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:31,680 Yeah. There's been a push for the return of the dinosaur fossils from from Tanzania and then the government. 144 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:42,900 But recently there are some very interesting engagement can come up come about the Tanzania government as us as proposed, 145 00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:46,450 that instead of that fossil being taken back to Tanzania, 146 00:18:46,450 --> 00:18:55,830 let the Yemeni government or the British Museum of Natural History raise funds to train Tanzanians because it's one thing returning 147 00:18:55,830 --> 00:19:04,830 that fossil back to Tanzania and another thing ensuring that that particular fossil is taken care of these these good space, 148 00:19:04,830 --> 00:19:11,010 these these, that the capacity in terms of the training for them to take care of the collection. 149 00:19:11,010 --> 00:19:16,980 So they're proposing that they would provide for the Yemeni government, 150 00:19:16,980 --> 00:19:24,990 can raise funds to train Tanzanians and to build capacity and and the situation in Tanzania. 151 00:19:24,990 --> 00:19:29,530 It's not. It's a very interesting one for a long time. 152 00:19:29,530 --> 00:19:40,950 A museum in Nairobi held vitamin collections that we have collected from Tanzania by by Mary Ann and Rich and Nikki many, many years ago. 153 00:19:40,950 --> 00:19:46,470 Those collections were taken back to Tanzania about maybe more than 10 years ago or they about. 154 00:19:46,470 --> 00:19:50,910 But today it's those collections of I've not been unpacked. 155 00:19:50,910 --> 00:19:57,630 There's two boxes. And this is a shipment of material from Kenya to Tanzania. 156 00:19:57,630 --> 00:20:05,070 It's just driven next door how both of these collections come in from Europe to Tanzania. 157 00:20:05,070 --> 00:20:12,780 So the challenges are so big that I think we need to really, really engage one another as much as possible, as much as possible again. 158 00:20:12,780 --> 00:20:16,740 Also, there is also the issue of the safety of the collections. 159 00:20:16,740 --> 00:20:26,280 We have some very, very nice fossil collections that are held in in the Ebru Museum in Israel. 160 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:32,310 The other day I conduct I conduct conducted by the curator of that particular museum. 161 00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:39,780 And she said that as much as they would want to to have the fossils shipped to Nairobi, 162 00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:44,250 it doesn't make sense because they are very, very fragile, very fragile. 163 00:20:44,250 --> 00:20:51,300 So what would what we would do is we will try to recreate some 3-D images and out 164 00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:57,420 of the images are reproduced replicas of the same and those will be transported, 165 00:20:57,420 --> 00:21:06,030 transported to Nairobi. So I think we need to be also also very sensitive and ensure that the movement of these collections from 166 00:21:06,030 --> 00:21:15,120 Europe to Africa does not really jeopardise the safety of the safety of the collections and the good. 167 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:21,180 A good example is our collections, the wonderful crocodiles, and Chris Broussard, one of our colleagues from America, 168 00:21:21,180 --> 00:21:27,090 has been studying these collections and he went to this museum and he took pictures and other photos of me. 169 00:21:27,090 --> 00:21:32,970 These collections are very, very fragile, so there's no way, even as the national museums of Kenya, 170 00:21:32,970 --> 00:21:41,430 there's no way you will push this museum to transport the collections to Kenya, because all we will receive is just powder of just yet. 171 00:21:41,430 --> 00:21:45,840 Nothing more than that. Yes, I think we as as we engage one another, 172 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:53,280 we also have to look at case by case and really whether this particular fossil can be 173 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:59,940 transported to Africa or whether it can still be curated in the European Museum or institution, 174 00:21:59,940 --> 00:22:03,780 but have replicas of the same in the African museum. 175 00:22:03,780 --> 00:22:09,600 So these are really different scenarios that all of us have to deal with. 176 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:16,620 I will say that I want to say that it's a wonderful debate. I think we need to engage one another as much as possible. 177 00:22:16,620 --> 00:22:24,660 I don't think these these these days enough compensation that the European nations can can offer to Africa. 178 00:22:24,660 --> 00:22:29,340 But I think we need to engage one another as much as possible in this discussion. 179 00:22:29,340 --> 00:22:36,090 I think it's a wonderful start and we all look forward to really pushing this discussion forward for the 180 00:22:36,090 --> 00:22:42,750 benefit of the all the nations involved and for the benefit of humanity and also for the benefit of science. 181 00:22:42,750 --> 00:22:46,494 Thank you very much.