1 00:00:00,150 --> 00:00:05,490 Afternoon and welcome, everybody. It's lovely to see you, at least as attendees. 2 00:00:05,490 --> 00:00:21,300 I don't see your faces. Welcome to our first ever virtual Israel Study Seminar and the first seminar of this new and different Michaelmas term. 3 00:00:21,300 --> 00:00:29,520 The nature of teams life events is such that we cannot see the faces of all the attendees or participants. 4 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:37,740 And I have to apologise for this, but this is part of the package of allowing everybody to just join, on the other hand. 5 00:00:37,740 --> 00:00:42,030 We do have the option to have a conversation through the Q&A. 6 00:00:42,030 --> 00:00:47,700 So if you look probably to the right of your screen, there is an option to post questions. 7 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:53,100 And after each presentation, you will be able to write your questions. 8 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:58,590 And I will be moderating this in a way. 9 00:00:58,590 --> 00:01:07,910 And I guess I have to ask you to bear with us as we are learning together how to how to utilise this to it. 10 00:01:07,910 --> 00:01:10,410 It is with immense pleasure. 11 00:01:10,410 --> 00:01:20,190 And while some sadness that I don't that I'm not able to do it in person, really face to face or at least for us to maths that. 12 00:01:20,190 --> 00:01:26,970 But real, genuine, ultimate pleasure to present to you the speaker, Professor Sandy Kedar. 13 00:01:26,970 --> 00:01:31,890 Professor Cadeau teaches law at the Haifa University's law school. 14 00:01:31,890 --> 00:01:40,620 His research focuses on legal geography, legal history, law and society and land regimes instead of killer societies. 15 00:01:40,620 --> 00:01:46,950 And so we only into Israel. He served as the president of the Israeli Law and Society Association. 16 00:01:46,950 --> 00:01:55,110 He is the co-ordinator of the Legal Geography Sciarra End of the Law and Society Association. 17 00:01:55,110 --> 00:01:59,790 And he is a man. He is a member of the International Committee of this association. 18 00:01:59,790 --> 00:02:10,970 He is the co-founder in 2003 and director of the Association for Distributive Justice, an Israeli NGO addressing these issues. 19 00:02:10,970 --> 00:02:19,290 I must also note maybe on a more personal note, that the first time I met Sandy was some 20 years ago. 20 00:02:19,290 --> 00:02:25,350 So when a small group of people organised as there is roughly Democratic Rainbow was 21 00:02:25,350 --> 00:02:30,920 celebrating a legal victory of what is usually known today as the article code, 22 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:36,600 a landmark decision by the Israeli court regarding the distribution of state help blends. 23 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:45,840 Sandy was a main person or the main person to oversee the litigation on the rainbow's side. 24 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:54,630 And he is credited, duly credited, amongst many other things, also with this landmark decision or victory. 25 00:02:54,630 --> 00:03:00,600 The title of Professor Cadeaux stock today is that of his recently published book, 26 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:06,810 Emptied Lens Lands Legal Geography of the Bedouin Rights in the Negev. 27 00:03:06,810 --> 00:03:11,280 And now I Should. Bring to life, Sandy. 28 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,540 Thank you. My life. 29 00:03:15,540 --> 00:03:19,620 You answer, you know, I don't know. Well, hi. 30 00:03:19,620 --> 00:03:23,890 So everybody sees me now because I see you. It's okay with the. 31 00:03:23,890 --> 00:03:29,950 Yes, sir. Okay. So. Hello. 32 00:03:29,950 --> 00:03:38,060 Yeah, I must say that I would have preferred to be with you in Oxford instead of sitting in my room in my home. 33 00:03:38,060 --> 00:03:45,530 But I think it's part of our age and time. I hope it won't last too long. 34 00:03:45,530 --> 00:03:56,450 So really, I wanted to thank Oxford University and they the Centre for Global and Area Studies and particularly CO that I know, 35 00:03:56,450 --> 00:03:59,120 as he said for many, many years. 36 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:09,840 And what I would like to do is to talk for about a 40 minutes, something like that, to present some issues that we touch upon. 37 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:25,910 A in my co-authored a book, Empty Lance, which I published with a legal a scholar, a mother and a political geographer, and it all went to hell. 38 00:04:25,910 --> 00:04:31,820 So now I will try to share my presentation with you. 39 00:04:31,820 --> 00:04:37,790 I hope it works. Can you see a ago? I can't hear you. 40 00:04:37,790 --> 00:04:43,700 Now, wait. Yes. We are seeing you and the presentation alongside it. 41 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:56,600 OK. So what I would like to do in the lecture is first to say a few things about my involvement in the issue of the between a land rights, 42 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:07,400 then move to give a bit of very short background at the situation of the Bedouins in the Negev, then give a short overview of the book, 43 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:21,560 then in the land dispute between Israel and the Bedouins of the Negev and focus on what we term the dead Negev doctrine, or in short, the Andes, 44 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:30,860 which we argue is a major legal and geographical doctrine that enables Israel to 45 00:05:30,860 --> 00:05:37,910 claim or to argue that Bedouins here are trespassers on their historical land. 46 00:05:37,910 --> 00:05:47,570 If you aren't, and I will also give offer some critique of the dead negative Edwards. 47 00:05:47,570 --> 00:05:55,010 So when we talk about a a Bedouins and recognise there between settlements, 48 00:05:55,010 --> 00:06:03,530 I should say that there are about a quarter of a million Bedouins in the area of the Negev after that. 49 00:06:03,530 --> 00:06:12,800 I will show you also some maps and that the Bedouins historically have been organised as 50 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:24,590 many tribes or indigenous people in the region of origin into what we call confederations, 51 00:06:24,590 --> 00:06:29,390 which are groupings of different tribes. 52 00:06:29,390 --> 00:06:36,560 And then they are, in their turn, divided into tribes and subtribes and so on. 53 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:44,600 So it's a very tribal or indigenous system of social organisation. 54 00:06:44,600 --> 00:07:00,380 I could talk about it later, but it's not the subject of the book or the presentation and half of the Bedouins that are living in the Negev. 55 00:07:00,380 --> 00:07:10,490 About half leaving. What is is what is recognised. A titling is unrecognised or a legal settlement. 56 00:07:10,490 --> 00:07:17,480 That's very important. So as some Bedouins are saying, the minute I'm born, I'm illegal. 57 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:25,190 Because though a many of them are living there and their parents for generations. 58 00:07:25,190 --> 00:07:39,500 But even though they are considered as trespassing on what is defined as a state land, and not only they don't receive any rights, 59 00:07:39,500 --> 00:07:57,140 but they also don't receive even basic system, a basic services, including, for example, shelters or a schools where they leave. 60 00:07:57,140 --> 00:08:04,910 They have to a commute, some sometimes very far away to go to school. 61 00:08:04,910 --> 00:08:10,250 In many cases, they don't have medical services in their space for Israel. 62 00:08:10,250 --> 00:08:11,640 They don't have electricity. 63 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:25,430 They don't have running water because the state considered it as state land and says that it will not allow these people to receive these services. 64 00:08:25,430 --> 00:08:30,140 I say sincere. It's not your land and you built without permit. 65 00:08:30,140 --> 00:08:36,920 You are trespassing on this land. And there is also I mean, the waves. 66 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:48,140 But there is. Quite an intensive process of state destruction of dwellings. 67 00:08:48,140 --> 00:08:55,280 By and large, you can say that on average, many more houses, a dwelling, 68 00:08:55,280 --> 00:09:01,470 I want to say dwelling or houses, but it's done time also shops and stuff like that. 69 00:09:01,470 --> 00:09:11,030 The destructed by the state, by Israel. And there are many more that destruction's in Bedouin dwellings than in the occupied territories. 70 00:09:11,030 --> 00:09:15,420 Just to give you of Palestinian house, I'm talking about Palestinian houses. 71 00:09:15,420 --> 00:09:28,790 Not about the outposts of Jewish outposts. And talking about Palestinian and Palestinian dwellings in all days is a based on a 72 00:09:28,790 --> 00:09:38,600 formalised system of settlement of title that is based on a British import and imported. 73 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:46,100 And they adhere to a legislated system which is called the tolerance system of land settlement, 74 00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:54,920 which is kind of geographical legal system that defines who owns certain area. 75 00:09:54,920 --> 00:10:07,460 And it's a very formal, quasi judicial system in which Israel is arguing that practically all the Negev is state land. 76 00:10:07,460 --> 00:10:17,750 Now, just to give you an idea. So this is, if you want to photos that it unrecognised village near Bayle Sheva. 77 00:10:17,750 --> 00:10:24,800 It's very standout if you want to general processes of what some scholars call 78 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:32,330 the illegal cities or shanty towns that they're spread around major cities, 79 00:10:32,330 --> 00:10:39,810 particularly in the in the south. And because the land is. 80 00:10:39,810 --> 00:10:44,730 Not recognise Israel, it is in the process of house demolition. 81 00:10:44,730 --> 00:10:54,490 Over and over, for example, the village of Eilat McCabe, which is on the record. 82 00:10:54,490 --> 00:11:04,950 That village has been destroyed over and over and over by the state, and the Bedouins are clinging to their dwellings. 83 00:11:04,950 --> 00:11:10,100 And so now, just to say a a. 84 00:11:10,100 --> 00:11:17,740 Just a. A, to present my involvement. 85 00:11:17,740 --> 00:11:36,890 So I am, first of all, an academic scholar, but I am in a position no, my view is that academic scholars can be also a intellectual Ongar as a person. 86 00:11:36,890 --> 00:11:48,950 So I believe that sometime you should use your knowledge in order to struggle over social issues. 87 00:11:48,950 --> 00:12:01,070 We could talk about it a bit in the QCA about the connexion between academic work in academic truth and being involved in a specific struggle. 88 00:12:01,070 --> 00:12:07,760 It's not easy, but I think I'd be happy to open this issue because I think it's interesting. 89 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,430 But so I would say that I am involved. 90 00:12:10,430 --> 00:12:21,740 I was involved in a case that reached the Israeli Supreme Court, a Lukumi case, which we cover also in the book. 91 00:12:21,740 --> 00:12:29,930 And I'm somehow also involved in another case now of in a Lulla Cabe, 92 00:12:29,930 --> 00:12:41,870 where Bedwin Sheth is in and out of jail for trespassing over the land of what he claims to be. 93 00:12:41,870 --> 00:12:45,740 Are you his tribal land? So. 94 00:12:45,740 --> 00:12:50,780 So this is this is a beginning. So I look to the book. 95 00:12:50,780 --> 00:13:04,430 So this is the book. And the picture of the book is actually a demolition of a dwelling in our cube and some nice doves over it. 96 00:13:04,430 --> 00:13:12,800 And what I would like to do in the nest next to bark is to present shortly the book. 97 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:25,970 How it is structured. And I would like to talk to a focus on the fact that it is a very interdisciplinary book. 98 00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:32,600 I see myself or I work within, I would say, several fields generally. 99 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:39,170 I studied history and law. So I made a nice studied legal history. 100 00:13:39,170 --> 00:13:51,320 I did my doctora doctoral dissertation with Professor Morton Horvitz with a very famous legal historian at Harvard. 101 00:13:51,320 --> 00:14:04,340 And I slowly became involved in a general field of law in society and also more and more in legal geography. 102 00:14:04,340 --> 00:14:14,060 My co-author, Armida Mother, who is also a lawyer, became did his speech d on Automan Legal History. 103 00:14:14,060 --> 00:14:18,410 You also studied Ottoman Turkish. 104 00:14:18,410 --> 00:14:27,980 So you can read the documents and part of its work was to go to the archives in Istanbul and Uncle LA and study the issue. 105 00:14:27,980 --> 00:14:34,670 And our third Orta is when you time Luis APPL, a political geographer, but also a planner. 106 00:14:34,670 --> 00:14:45,740 So I think that what we can say is that the book also reflect the relatively wide range of the three authors. 107 00:14:45,740 --> 00:14:50,630 It's not very easy because we write differently. We come from different disciplines. 108 00:14:50,630 --> 00:14:58,610 So we had many, many versions of the book. But I think that it's worthwhile if you try to tackle with a very complex issue. 109 00:14:58,610 --> 00:15:06,650 I think it's very difficult to be able to master it from only one disciplinary perspective, 110 00:15:06,650 --> 00:15:11,370 because while we're talking about is very intertwined itself. 111 00:15:11,370 --> 00:15:17,360 So. The book goes like that. 112 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:31,010 We begin with the setting of the book, we gave no general overview of several stories of the land dispute between the Bedouins and the state. 113 00:15:31,010 --> 00:15:44,750 Several examples. For example, we talk about the fact that during Irae operation, one of the last operation in Gaza, 114 00:15:44,750 --> 00:15:53,420 one of the only Israeli victims, was a Bedouin in an unrecognised village that was hit by a Hamas. 115 00:15:53,420 --> 00:16:03,860 And we discovered I mean, it was discovered that Iron Dome does not work in unrecognised villages because it's not on the maps. 116 00:16:03,860 --> 00:16:06,230 So they are not protecting it. 117 00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:14,930 Oh, at least that was the official story or a presentation of the Israeli state to the Supreme Court when it dealt with it. 118 00:16:14,930 --> 00:16:19,370 So being unrecognised is extremely. 119 00:16:19,370 --> 00:16:28,000 I mean, we introduced the reader to the life and death issue of being unrecognised. 120 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:37,130 And for example, when Israel Israeli authorities are planning Route six, which is the major north south route, 121 00:16:37,130 --> 00:16:42,560 they just planet on unrecognised villages because they are not on the map. 122 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,570 So they don't take account of it, just drive through it. 123 00:16:47,570 --> 00:16:52,910 So we talk about several issues and give examples. 124 00:16:52,910 --> 00:16:58,200 And mainly the book is also structured again. 125 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:04,160 We we take. We have our main character, who is Norway. 126 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:09,290 Look me with a Bedouin. Now, he's in his mid 70s. 127 00:17:09,290 --> 00:17:15,590 Was BNA actually educated in a kibbutz? And, uh, but he's part of fair. 128 00:17:15,590 --> 00:17:21,260 They'll be driveby and he's struggling over the land rights and the. 129 00:17:21,260 --> 00:17:28,700 The book weaves his attempt to overcome or try to gain what he he really believes 130 00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:34,310 in these early system or try in the legal system and tries to get his rights. 131 00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:40,850 And we go with him from the lower courts up to the Supreme Court. 132 00:17:40,850 --> 00:17:45,200 But we give us a general overview. So this is the introduction. 133 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:52,220 Then we gave it a few scholarly and legal frameworks. 134 00:17:52,220 --> 00:18:00,710 We explain a bit. What are the Bedouin Arabs? And also, you know what I was talking about. 135 00:18:00,710 --> 00:18:10,550 Good for duration tribes. It's quite complicated and is in many cases with indigenous people. 136 00:18:10,550 --> 00:18:22,870 We use legal geography and we work within the framework of settler, colonial and indigenous. 137 00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:32,360 Indigenous. Yes, persay dispossession. We also use the term of Noch Russy that they own if to fail has coined. 138 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:39,470 So this is generally this kind of setting the scholarly and legal frameworks. 139 00:18:39,470 --> 00:18:49,610 Then we move to a critical and legal history of what we call the dead Negev doctrine. 140 00:18:49,610 --> 00:18:57,050 And what we do here is we divided it into three major period. 141 00:18:57,050 --> 00:19:00,770 One is the late Ottoman period. 142 00:19:00,770 --> 00:19:09,580 So we tried to explain. What were the laws in force during the Ottoman period? 143 00:19:09,580 --> 00:19:15,850 And it's not always very easy to discover and what law was enforced and what not, 144 00:19:15,850 --> 00:19:30,550 but it's very important to understand the role of the legal setting of the Ottoman period, because as I will show later, the Israeli state, 145 00:19:30,550 --> 00:19:44,200 one of the important claims of the Israeli state is that it is not dispossessing the Bedouins and it is not changing the law because what it is 146 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:57,010 doing is implementing the law that was in force before the establishment of Israel and specifically and even more during the late Ottoman period. 147 00:19:57,010 --> 00:20:06,340 So we'll say claim. What do you want from us? We are just protecting what was defined as state land under the Ottomans who are even Muslim. 148 00:20:06,340 --> 00:20:12,270 So it's not that the Zionist state is doing anything to dispossess Bedouin. 149 00:20:12,270 --> 00:20:23,920 But on the contrary. So the first I mean, chapter two shows that there is a need to petition of the Ottoman legislation is very problematic. 150 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:33,130 So I want to stress that as a legal scholar, I am not a formalised legal scholar. 151 00:20:33,130 --> 00:20:38,260 I think that in most cases, law does not speak for itself. 152 00:20:38,260 --> 00:20:42,280 You have to go through interpretation and you have to understand the context. 153 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,960 So you cannot just look at the words and decide that this is it. 154 00:20:46,960 --> 00:21:01,390 So one of the arguments is that Israel in every junction is opting for the most detrimental interpretation of the laws to the Bedouins. 155 00:21:01,390 --> 00:21:09,250 OK. So it's not that you can first of all, some of the laws, it's not even, you know, 156 00:21:09,250 --> 00:21:15,310 a clear if they were enforce or not, whether they're published, whether they were at any hour. 157 00:21:15,310 --> 00:21:24,850 What is important is that the major legislation, which which is the Ottoman land code from 1858, 158 00:21:24,850 --> 00:21:31,870 remains the major bone of contention of actually both the Bedouins and the Palestinian, 159 00:21:31,870 --> 00:21:38,440 or a major bone of contention between Bedouins and also Palestinians in occupied territory. 160 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:51,130 More than 150 years after it was enacted and more than, I don't know, decades after it was. 161 00:21:51,130 --> 00:21:57,820 I know a Newald in Turkey on entitlements or it has its does not exist in Turkey, 162 00:21:57,820 --> 00:22:06,670 but it still is a major law in force here in the area, in the in the in Israel and in Palestine. 163 00:22:06,670 --> 00:22:10,450 If you aren't. And so it's very important to understand it. 164 00:22:10,450 --> 00:22:13,450 So we did a lot of work on that. 165 00:22:13,450 --> 00:22:26,530 Then we move to the British mandate period, which also proceeded Israel, and we analyse the changes introduced by the British, amongst others. 166 00:22:26,530 --> 00:22:36,790 As I said before, the settlement of title system and also a. 167 00:22:36,790 --> 00:22:40,760 Yeah. If you dock, I don't hear you. I see you moving, but I don't know. 168 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:48,190 I don't hear you. I don't. Oh, boy. No, no, I'm listening very attentively because, you know. 169 00:22:48,190 --> 00:22:54,030 OK. And that so there are some issues like it changes a lot. 170 00:22:54,030 --> 00:23:02,620 The British introduced they make some amendments to the Automan and a relevant legislation on something called the Mel Watt. 171 00:23:02,620 --> 00:23:08,740 It's a kind of flattened land type that is relies on. 172 00:23:08,740 --> 00:23:16,840 So we analyse that and we go over the cases from the up from the British mandate period and analyse them and 173 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:25,630 show what was going on in the law by the courts that they ruled in Palestine during the British mandate. 174 00:23:25,630 --> 00:23:37,750 And then the last part of this chapter, we review and analyse the constructions, what we call the dead Negev doctrine that we'll explain. 175 00:23:37,750 --> 00:23:46,360 But essentially, our understanding is that it is a very similar to the doctrine of terra nullius that was, for example, 176 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:56,630 used in Australia or empty land is doctrine that the land is empty and therefore nobody had rights on the land. 177 00:23:56,630 --> 00:24:12,160 So this is based on analysis of committees and governmental committees and legal cases and so on, 178 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:20,680 that we show the construction of this doctrine and we continue until today or until a few years ago. 179 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:31,180 Then after we established this pillar, which we had, the PLO would say of the legal history, we move to the legal geography of the Negev. 180 00:24:31,180 --> 00:24:41,270 And here we have two majors. Chapter one, a look as the question of. 181 00:24:41,270 --> 00:24:52,410 They stoical geography of the Negev. One of the arguments which is also very common for settler colonial discourse and also for it, 182 00:24:52,410 --> 00:24:59,240 and how many of you are knowledgeable of legal doctrine. 183 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:05,330 But, for example, the view of John Locke, of who has a right to the land, a person who ties labour, 184 00:25:05,330 --> 00:25:10,970 the theory of labour of John Locke, which is very prominent in issues of property. 185 00:25:10,970 --> 00:25:17,570 So the idea is that Bedouins where nomads, they did not cultivate the land. 186 00:25:17,570 --> 00:25:22,520 They had no no connexion to the land. So they didn't have any right. 187 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,120 If even if they were there, they were just passing through. 188 00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:33,020 Just like, you know, Aborigines in Australia or Native Americans in North Africa and so on. 189 00:25:33,020 --> 00:25:42,290 So we analyse it and actually show based on a lot of documents that Bedouins had quite a lot of agriculture. 190 00:25:42,290 --> 00:25:53,480 For example, they were a major exporter as of, say, barley to a beer industry in Europe, in England. 191 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,410 Then they actually and then in other places, you know, so. 192 00:25:58,410 --> 00:26:07,550 And so we show that the construction of the Bedouins is a not a tiling. 193 00:26:07,550 --> 00:26:13,540 The land is just incorrect. It's all, of course, debated and the debate continues. 194 00:26:13,540 --> 00:26:16,340 But. And then the next step, a chapter, 195 00:26:16,340 --> 00:26:30,950 Chapter six goes and looks at the question of their concept of territory and settlements because according to Israeli understanding. 196 00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:37,010 Bedouins were nomads. So not only they did not cultivate their land, but they don't have any attachment. 197 00:26:37,010 --> 00:26:47,720 And they were and the symbol is the tent. And we show that Bedouins had in the period, at least since the 19th century. 198 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:53,900 But even before that, the pattern that is called Sami nomadism, which is very different. 199 00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:59,510 And they were moving but from regular or permanent places. 200 00:26:59,510 --> 00:27:06,830 So that the winter and summer place. But sometimes they return to the same poles of their tents. 201 00:27:06,830 --> 00:27:10,250 And everybody knew very well who owns what and where. 202 00:27:10,250 --> 00:27:19,250 So we show that the idea of the Bedouins roaming all over, I don't know. 203 00:27:19,250 --> 00:27:26,780 All over the Middle East is just incorrect historically. And yet it also has an importance. 204 00:27:26,780 --> 00:27:36,320 Then at the next. Chapter or part looks in international comparative, an Israeli perspective. 205 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:42,350 And we look at the question whether Bedouins are indigenous or not. 206 00:27:42,350 --> 00:27:47,950 And this is important because. Well, first of all, 207 00:27:47,950 --> 00:27:58,690 it's very important because when we talk about indigenous Israelis in Israelis are immediately terrified that if the Bedouins are indigenous, 208 00:27:58,690 --> 00:28:01,090 what does it mean that we, the Israeli Jews, 209 00:28:01,090 --> 00:28:10,090 are a I at least think that more than one group can be indigenous to the land because people can construct. 210 00:28:10,090 --> 00:28:16,720 Because I think that all these things are constructed identities. Anyhow, I think that it's not an objective thing. 211 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:22,240 So anyhow, we can talk about it. Well, so did not agree. Bumped up the authors about all the details. 212 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:30,250 But it's also very important legally, because if we are correct, 213 00:28:30,250 --> 00:28:41,080 as we show in Chapter seven, that the Bedouin fit their structure of being indigenous. 214 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:51,770 And when you compare it to other groups, not only in European settler colonial places, but also in Africa, in Asia. 215 00:28:51,770 --> 00:28:55,930 OK. Indigenous group in Asia and Africa. And we like. 216 00:28:55,930 --> 00:29:01,240 There is no agreed upon definition of indigenous people. But there are characteristics. 217 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,980 And we argue that based on the characteristics that we suggest, 218 00:29:05,980 --> 00:29:14,830 Bedouins are not less indigenous than other groups that are perceived as indigenous by other indigenous groups. 219 00:29:14,830 --> 00:29:17,860 And if we are correct in what we say in Chapter seven. 220 00:29:17,860 --> 00:29:27,580 And I think we are, then I just say that not only Israelis are unhappy with the definition of Bedouins as indigenous, 221 00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:32,500 but also many Palestinian Arabs in Palestine nonperson. 222 00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:38,860 A Palestinian Israeli Arabs say we are all indigenous in other Palestine. 223 00:29:38,860 --> 00:29:42,520 So there it's it's a very interesting debate. We can talk about it. 224 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,800 But at least my position is that the Bedouins are indigenous. 225 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:53,920 According to the definition, they they got the international law characterisation. 226 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:59,800 I mean, there is a difference between anthropology, sociology and so on. 227 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:09,010 I think that when you look at the legal discourse, the international law discourse, then they feed their characterisation. 228 00:30:09,010 --> 00:30:18,190 And that is important because in Chapter eight, we argue that. 229 00:30:18,190 --> 00:30:28,360 The Beddawi the international law currently since the UN Declaration of Indigenous People of 2008. 230 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:40,100 Seven. What we could think, 2007 forgood, at least. 231 00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:47,960 This declaration became what we call amongst legal scholars, customary international law. 232 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:58,220 Part of it and customary international law is and norms that states must comply to. 233 00:30:58,220 --> 00:31:06,410 I mean, it's compelling the states and their countries unless they legislate directly against it. 234 00:31:06,410 --> 00:31:09,930 And there is no Israeli legislation against it. 235 00:31:09,930 --> 00:31:21,650 And according to the Israeli system, the internal legally Eastham system, Israel is obliged to follow customary international law doesn't do it. 236 00:31:21,650 --> 00:31:31,010 I mean, it's different in the occupied territories, but in Israel proper, Israel formally is obliged and compelled to abide by it. 237 00:31:31,010 --> 00:31:39,380 And therefore, if we are right, Israel, including the Israeli Supreme Court, are not following international law. 238 00:31:39,380 --> 00:31:44,720 So it has at least the argument is very important that since anyhow, 239 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:58,010 the next ay ay in last part is contested futures in which we look at state solutions, 240 00:31:58,010 --> 00:32:06,380 processes and proposal, how to solve that issue, not through a legal system, but kind of other alternative ways. 241 00:32:06,380 --> 00:32:11,950 And also what we call seeking planning solution. 242 00:32:11,950 --> 00:32:26,780 Oh, and if I had my co-author was heading a long term project of trying to use Israeli planning principles on Bedwin unrecognised settlements. 243 00:32:26,780 --> 00:32:36,500 They went and made a lot of workshops with Bedouins and they reached the conclusion that about 90, 90 percent, 244 00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:45,990 99 percent of the cases, or 90 percent, more than 90 percent of the cases, if you apply the Israeli planning system. 245 00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:58,620 On the bed weeks, including things similar to keyboard, would too much of the same to a private, to a individual ranchers and so on. 246 00:32:58,620 --> 00:33:05,940 And you allocate the land not on the basis of ethnicity, but on the basis of citizenship. 247 00:33:05,940 --> 00:33:09,570 Practically all Bedouins could be settlements. 248 00:33:09,570 --> 00:33:14,880 What we call unrecognised settlements could be recognised where they are. 249 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:19,650 And we conclude in the conclusion, the conclusion is based on two parts. 250 00:33:19,650 --> 00:33:23,140 The first part is. 251 00:33:23,140 --> 00:33:35,960 A review of the Israeli Supreme Court case in a big case which was delivered right when we were writing the book and rejected all the arguments. 252 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:48,010 What we told you here. Essentially, these eight currently the decision was written by the current president of the Supreme Court. 253 00:33:48,010 --> 00:33:55,270 I. But she'd then she wasn't a president, but essentially she rejected all of argument. 254 00:33:55,270 --> 00:34:08,470 And we put a. Unallied, her decision also in a criticise it and then conclude, I mean, there is a part about future and so on. 255 00:34:08,470 --> 00:34:13,740 So this is if you aren't there a structure of the book and what. 256 00:34:13,740 --> 00:34:22,450 But it how long do give me ten. Fifteen. I don't hear I think about ten more minutes would be. 257 00:34:22,450 --> 00:34:29,350 Yeah. OK. So what do I do now is I just give you were talking. 258 00:34:29,350 --> 00:34:33,460 Can you see also my my cursor or or just. Yes. 259 00:34:33,460 --> 00:34:39,790 Because you're cursed too. Okay. So the area of the unrecognised villages is about here today. 260 00:34:39,790 --> 00:34:51,280 Mostly. I mean, this is the Negev. Before that, the Bedouins were mostly in a northern part of the Negev, but there were also Bedouins in the south. 261 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:57,340 This is if you want it's part of the appendixes affair, our book and the maps. 262 00:34:57,340 --> 00:35:04,720 So this is where most every point here is the location of the Bedouins. 263 00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:08,860 This is the land claims. 264 00:35:08,860 --> 00:35:13,840 Again, most of the land claims that the Bedouins has filed. 265 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:19,990 This is just a photo for destruction's going on in the Negev. 266 00:35:19,990 --> 00:35:29,320 And what I want to do in the next few minutes is just to give you an overview of the dead Negev doctrine and then a bit of criticism. 267 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:35,520 And you stop me and it probably will not have time to say everything. So you stop me whenever you feel like. 268 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,760 So when we talk about the dead Negev doctrine, 269 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:48,580 what I say is that Israel created a legal doctrine that for Citilink facilitates a settlement and land nationalisation, 270 00:35:48,580 --> 00:35:57,010 which is called a dead negative doctrine. And it's a logic resembles that of the terra nullius. 271 00:35:57,010 --> 00:36:05,620 But we have seen a lot of distortions in the dead Neka doctrine and essentially in each legal, 272 00:36:05,620 --> 00:36:14,080 historical, geographical and discretion point, there is a choice made. 273 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:19,230 And this is important. I said I'm not deformities. There is a choice to the detriment of the Bedouin. 274 00:36:19,230 --> 00:36:26,800 So in all that is incremental. So in the end, in it, in each dot point, they lose. 275 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:38,770 In the end, they lose almost all cases. So what I want to stress is that often indigenous dispossession entails also denial. 276 00:36:38,770 --> 00:36:43,060 We all like to think about ourselves as good people or most of us. 277 00:36:43,060 --> 00:36:45,710 And they are a dead negative. 278 00:36:45,710 --> 00:36:56,050 Doug Darwin is a spatial legal justice figure story doctrine, which is very good because it dispossesses, while simultaneously didn't matter, 279 00:36:56,050 --> 00:37:05,240 denying that his position because say we're not taking anything from you because it's belonging to the state and it's based on intertwined, 280 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:16,480 often ambiguous historical, legal and geographical claims and procedural and evidentiary legal tools which we contest throughout the book. 281 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:24,490 One of key moves was declared VCAT classification of the entire Negev region as dead or not. 282 00:37:24,490 --> 00:37:37,750 What land, which this term derives from Muslim tradition and later appears in the Ottoman land God and also in British mandate legislation. 283 00:37:37,750 --> 00:37:45,310 We devote a lot of time to it. But because of fair time limit, I will not get into it now. 284 00:37:45,310 --> 00:37:55,720 And. That dead Negev doctrine is constantly where varying between norms and facts, substance and procedure, law. 285 00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:59,330 History and geography and its inherent skills. 286 00:37:59,330 --> 00:38:03,740 And theirs is an important channel by which each. 287 00:38:03,740 --> 00:38:14,770 A, it's a Germanic powers fought. And what is important is that it all the time the choice is presented as a constraint. 288 00:38:14,770 --> 00:38:24,120 But we distilled and refuted. Eight core DeAnda components, and now I'll tried to run on on them. 289 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:36,760 Eight. And in that. So the first one is that Israel claims legal continuity with an scrupulous application of Ottoman and British landlords, 290 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:43,480 particularly the settlement of title legislation in those regulating Milwaukie and merely land. 291 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:49,960 But we show lack of continuity with Ottoman and British mandate law and practises. 292 00:38:49,960 --> 00:39:00,820 This is the first part of the book. Then Israel claims lack of organised functioning and prop up the land system within the Bedouins. 293 00:39:00,820 --> 00:39:12,360 But we show that there was it in existence and persistent of an elaborate, consistent and well functioning indigenous, a tribal land system. 294 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:20,280 I continue. A previous regime never recognised, so goes Israel. 295 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,580 Bedwin legal autonomy or customary law. 296 00:39:23,580 --> 00:39:37,320 But what we show is that there was a lack of effective Ottoman rule in the region until at the very least 19 01 when Bill Sheva was established. 297 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:46,980 And there was legal and a autonomy granted to the Bedouins by the autobahns and by the British mandate trollers. 298 00:39:46,980 --> 00:39:57,030 We also showed that there was an extensive, extensive sale of Bedouin land to Jewish and Arab purchasers during Lut late 299 00:39:57,030 --> 00:40:05,190 Automan in particular British times and in its successful title registration, 300 00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:10,530 which confirmed the Bedouins traditional land system and the position of previous government. 301 00:40:10,530 --> 00:40:20,740 But they did not own the land. Israel argues that the Bedouin also failed to register the land deal a specific date. 302 00:40:20,740 --> 00:40:31,830 I will not get into it now, but I'll give you some examples of recognition, recognition by previous regime. 303 00:40:31,830 --> 00:40:43,920 So, for example, the Ottoman blocked the land from four building Be'er Sheva by from the Bedouins. 304 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:49,500 So if they did if they thought it did not belong to the Bedouin, they would not have bought it. 305 00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:54,360 Churchill, the secretary of state, it appeared. 306 00:40:54,360 --> 00:41:01,870 They wrote that he reaffirms the assurances already given in Be'er Sheva by the high commissioner to the 307 00:41:01,870 --> 00:41:10,540 chair that the special rights and custom of the Bedouin tribes of Be'er Sheva will not be interfered with. 308 00:41:10,540 --> 00:41:22,630 In a letter to Ben Go on, the British Mandate wrote that they regard the land as belonging to Bedouin tribes. 309 00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:31,570 I will not get into it because of the time that was regular acquisition of land from Bedouin and by Jews, 310 00:41:31,570 --> 00:41:38,750 and it was registered by the Ottoman and British authorities. Actually, my great. 311 00:41:38,750 --> 00:41:47,080 Mushes Wilonsky was buying land from Dave Edwards, the author Mushes Wilonsky, and it's a high quantity. 312 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:54,130 I'm running because I'm running out of time, so. And we can see, for example, a map. 313 00:41:54,130 --> 00:42:05,680 Actually, all the Jewish settlements were that were established before 1948 were built on bedwin of land, both from the Bedouins. 314 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:14,530 I continue the argument goes that until at least 1921, Bedouins did not cultivate regularly, didn't give land. 315 00:42:14,530 --> 00:42:26,440 But we show that there was a Pathet pervasive cultivation and also the argument that there were nomadic, lacking permanent settlements. 316 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,720 But we show that. 317 00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:43,460 There were semi nomadic and not nomadic, for example, here, for example, we have a map which is based on aerial photos of made by the British. 318 00:42:43,460 --> 00:42:57,110 Of all that tents in the Negev. And we analyse it and we show that it's based on a settlement pattern that is very logical and not just spread out. 319 00:42:57,110 --> 00:43:04,550 As I said. So we show it and then we can show, for example, reports. 320 00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:12,140 This is by the Palestine Land Development Company, a very important Jewish company, 321 00:43:12,140 --> 00:43:20,600 reports on land cultivation and a ownership of land, as they perceived it by a. 322 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:26,240 In this case, it's Arabic Kabbani, which is the name for Lucumi Tribe. 323 00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:32,240 I continue. I have two more and then I finish the Bedouins, the argument goes, are not indigenous. 324 00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:45,770 Grieb a group, but we show we show that they're they fit the characterisation of indigenous people in international law. 325 00:43:45,770 --> 00:43:53,720 Israel argues that the legal burden to establish the right, the right gets all these stipulations. 326 00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:56,270 That is one, two, seven. 327 00:43:56,270 --> 00:44:05,030 All the legal, almost illegal border burden is on the Bedouin, which is almost impossible because you look at the case in Israel, 328 00:44:05,030 --> 00:44:10,310 a common Bedouin tribe, or burzan a claimant and ask for recognition. 329 00:44:10,310 --> 00:44:21,490 And Israel says you have to show that you cultivated these specific do knowm of land, this specific tract of land. 330 00:44:21,490 --> 00:44:26,380 In eight before 1858, sometimes. And how can you do it? 331 00:44:26,380 --> 00:44:36,850 There is no aerial photos when we bring some. When they bring some description by people that we're moving in the area. 332 00:44:36,850 --> 00:44:51,580 For example, people that wear. Searching for the Bible traces, I know all these kind of people that we're running around or even spies and so on, 333 00:44:51,580 --> 00:44:53,680 the court said it's not accurate enough. 334 00:44:53,680 --> 00:45:01,900 I mean, somebody is describing that you walked three hours south west of I don't know what, but how do we know it is your truck? 335 00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:06,610 And when they describe that they encounter something, it's not good enough. 336 00:45:06,610 --> 00:45:13,270 So in a way, I wish it's very clear that this is in a way, a game. 337 00:45:13,270 --> 00:45:22,360 I mean, they get it. The game is very important in legitimation legitimation and say you can try to prove your you failed to prove you fail to prove. 338 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:27,190 That means you are a trespasser on state land and we protect the state land. 339 00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:32,680 On the other hand, in international, regional and national norms, 340 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:39,760 they increasingly grant land and territorial rights to indigenous community and also adopt 341 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:45,700 procedural and evidence rules to be more conquerors with indigenous dorms and practises. 342 00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:56,920 For example, the Canadian Supreme Court recently said, well, you cannot demand an indigenous group to act as if he was 200 years ago, 343 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:03,130 acting according to our system of laws with a lawyer cancelling them how to register the land. 344 00:46:03,130 --> 00:46:07,750 It's just impossible. But Israel continues. 345 00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:17,380 So I will stop here and I will probably try to stop the sheer. 346 00:46:17,380 --> 00:46:21,670 Screen all you can do it, I. Thank you, Sandy. 347 00:46:21,670 --> 00:46:25,520 I think I have the control over this. This is fascinating. So much. 348 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,590 I'm behind that bet I. You're under it now. 349 00:46:29,590 --> 00:46:35,020 I think people see me for a second before you are back for questions and answers I need to make. 350 00:46:35,020 --> 00:46:40,570 Just one clarification to ask questions. I think that people are doing this already. 351 00:46:40,570 --> 00:46:46,660 You can post your question. And I have somehow the censorship role of choosing which to publish in which not to publish. 352 00:46:46,660 --> 00:46:53,050 Obviously, I will publish all that are not crazy, I guess. 353 00:46:53,050 --> 00:46:57,430 And I think the best would be for us, Sandy, for me to read the questions, just for the record. 354 00:46:57,430 --> 00:47:01,720 This is people asking that necessarily my own questions. 355 00:47:01,720 --> 00:47:05,950 And you let's take them one by one so you can choose which to answer. 356 00:47:05,950 --> 00:47:13,810 So let me just put you on an. 357 00:47:13,810 --> 00:47:26,630 I'm publishing the questions right now. So the first question I think all can see, if you open the questions that answer tab, you can see the. 358 00:47:26,630 --> 00:47:31,040 Thank you, sir. I'd like to see it if I just read it aloud then. 359 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:35,930 So the question is only before and disappeared. I don't know why it's under published now. 360 00:47:35,930 --> 00:47:48,480 If you go on to published, you can see them. So this is from an anonymous anonymous attendee who writes, The Palestinians are indigenous. 361 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:57,000 What are they? Are they doing or not? Modern international law is colonial legal system that structurally discriminates against non-state groups. 362 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:02,580 And like any like any legal system, its application is a matter of power. 363 00:48:02,580 --> 00:48:09,630 So Israel refers. Refers to or relies on international law when it serves its interests. 364 00:48:09,630 --> 00:48:16,170 On the other hand, Israel relies on international law to claim that its colonial state is legitimate. 365 00:48:16,170 --> 00:48:24,660 On the other hand, Israel consistently claims that international laws should not apply to its act because of one or another excuse. 366 00:48:24,660 --> 00:48:32,630 So the question is, do you believe that the national law can influence the Israeli court decisions? 367 00:48:32,630 --> 00:48:39,120 OK. So it's an excellent question. I don't know why I don't see the previous question, but I've seen it before. 368 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:44,460 And then he disappeared. But anyhow, I know if it will be easier, because I. 369 00:48:44,460 --> 00:48:52,120 I mean, now I have a sign saying no new questions anyhow. Do you think the public's questions, though, if you ever published the. 370 00:48:52,120 --> 00:49:00,990 Why on the Q&A, does it published anyhow? 371 00:49:00,990 --> 00:49:10,310 I don't see it, but I will answer anyhow. So the questions is. 372 00:49:10,310 --> 00:49:19,730 Is based on several sub quish, it's the first one is the question whether Palestinians are an indigenous people. 373 00:49:19,730 --> 00:49:28,250 I mean, it's not a question, it's a statement, but it's a statement that we discussed amongst the authors. 374 00:49:28,250 --> 00:49:34,490 And actually now I'm writing an article which is a speech, this of mine. 375 00:49:34,490 --> 00:49:39,860 And she's in the Palestinian Israeli Palestinian office. 376 00:49:39,860 --> 00:49:44,420 Palestinian citizens of Israel. And we agreed not to agree. 377 00:49:44,420 --> 00:49:49,100 So we my view is the following. There is a difference. 378 00:49:49,100 --> 00:49:53,540 Indigenous is actually, of course, a Western creation. It's a Western term. 379 00:49:53,540 --> 00:50:03,470 Nobody was born. Indigenous people were born. I don't know, Maori and they and a Cherokee and so on. 380 00:50:03,470 --> 00:50:08,390 So nobody was born as indigenous, indigenous as a creation and Western creation. 381 00:50:08,390 --> 00:50:15,210 It's comes from French and deejayed. And it was used Derrell, in a derogatory way. 382 00:50:15,210 --> 00:50:22,880 And then after that, in a very interesting way indigenous people use this term is to empower them. 383 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:26,750 So I did hear is it in our chapter about indigenous people? 384 00:50:26,750 --> 00:50:34,670 There is an analysis of the term. And what I want to stress is the following. 385 00:50:34,670 --> 00:50:47,240 In different disciplines, there are different definition. Now, I think that and by the way, neither are and no Armon do agree with me. 386 00:50:47,240 --> 00:50:52,260 OK. So we didn't put it in the book. We have a discussion. I think. 387 00:50:52,260 --> 00:51:08,280 That Beduins feet. The characteristic of indigenous people in a different way, that, let's say somebody in Ramallah fits this definition. 388 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:20,700 Now my. My, my, my, my understanding is that following Bedouins are indigenous. 389 00:51:20,700 --> 00:51:33,900 Also, Arab citizens of Israel, the ultra Palestinians, there are many other things like I'm also many other things on the other hand. 390 00:51:33,900 --> 00:51:42,690 In the international law definition, I don't think the Palestinians fit the narrow characterisation of indigenous people, 391 00:51:42,690 --> 00:51:49,710 but they fit a much more powerful definition, which is there are people, they are a nation. 392 00:51:49,710 --> 00:51:54,840 They have a right to their own state. I mean, so it's more powerful. 393 00:51:54,840 --> 00:52:04,140 I mean, to be indigenous is weaker than to be a nation or state a or a people are. 394 00:52:04,140 --> 00:52:13,260 And, for example, indigenous don't have a right to the people that don't have the right to their own country's own state. 395 00:52:13,260 --> 00:52:22,910 So. And I think that Palestinians are indigenous to the land, 396 00:52:22,910 --> 00:52:31,110 but are not indigenous people according to the narrow definition of what is indigenous in international. 397 00:52:31,110 --> 00:52:46,150 So they just might. But the answer to the first part of the question, the second is whether I mean, we chose as scholars that work with the Bedouins. 398 00:52:46,150 --> 00:52:55,330 And also, some of the Bedwin chose this definition because in a specific context of Israel. 399 00:52:55,330 --> 00:53:00,520 It can help their land claims. It can assist do land claims. 400 00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:09,420 It's not not in other context. It can be detrimental, but but in this context. 401 00:53:09,420 --> 00:53:20,410 We think that they can have some kind of. Benefits from being defined as indigenous, 402 00:53:20,410 --> 00:53:33,160 particularly in the sense that it moves the debate away only from internal Israeli courts to a more international arena. 403 00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:41,080 Now, unfortunately, unlike, for example, what happens in Africa and in the Americas, 404 00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:47,110 where there are regional international courts, Israel is not subject to such courts. 405 00:53:47,110 --> 00:53:52,810 But in the general discussion, there is a benefit to that. 406 00:53:52,810 --> 00:53:54,310 So I don't think and of course, 407 00:53:54,310 --> 00:54:00,250 Israel is not abiding by international law in many other places and many other countries are not abiding by international law. 408 00:54:00,250 --> 00:54:12,840 But isn't it is a discourse. I think that it has benefits, especially when you don't have clearcut property rights. 409 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,410 I hope I answered this question. Thank you. 410 00:54:16,410 --> 00:54:22,050 I will read the next question. This is from Makeda asking the US here. 411 00:54:22,050 --> 00:54:31,110 This is the thank you for a very interesting talk. Alexander, what is the status of Beduins land claim against the state of Israel now? 412 00:54:31,110 --> 00:54:36,960 So the status is the following. 413 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:46,350 They last important case was the Lockerbie case, which was ruled about four or five years ago. 414 00:54:46,350 --> 00:54:55,380 It reached the Supreme Court, as I said, and then it was even reached a further hearing, 415 00:54:55,380 --> 00:55:03,480 which is another Statler's and further hearing by the president and president of the Israeli Supreme Court was denied. 416 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:13,450 So. Many of the arguments that where. 417 00:55:13,450 --> 00:55:20,260 Made by day a look be. Were dismissed by the Israeli Supreme Court, however. 418 00:55:20,260 --> 00:55:24,670 I am now somehow involved in another case. 419 00:55:24,670 --> 00:55:33,630 I mean, we could talk about the problem with a local big case, but it began. 420 00:55:33,630 --> 00:55:40,210 Lawyers that were not really. Extremely. 421 00:55:40,210 --> 00:55:46,020 I don't know how to say it. I will stop here and in the middle of the case. 422 00:55:46,020 --> 00:55:49,630 We got involved and convinced I was not involved. 423 00:55:49,630 --> 00:55:55,530 Guess from the beginning we got involved. Oh, and if the Fed has an expert opinion, then what? 424 00:55:55,530 --> 00:55:59,730 I was there in a sabbatical and I returned to Israel and got involved. 425 00:55:59,730 --> 00:56:07,440 And we convinced Norway, look, B two, that we might it might be a good idea to change his lawyers. 426 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:14,280 And then he changed it into one of the best, a lawyer in Israel on these issues. 427 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:25,110 Michaelides filed was a work a lot in the occupied territories, but it was too late for introducing some of the evidence. 428 00:56:25,110 --> 00:56:30,370 I mean, there were a lot of mistakes made in the procedure. 429 00:56:30,370 --> 00:56:37,200 So now the other case is started from the beginning with me, Hertzfeld. 430 00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:42,810 So we think that we might. We might. 431 00:56:42,810 --> 00:56:48,930 I'm not sure. I know it's very good anywhere we might make some gains, but in general, 432 00:56:48,930 --> 00:56:56,520 I would say that the land claims they lost 100 percent of their land claims so far in Israeli courts. 433 00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:10,160 So. Yeah, a couple of technical questions and there were maybe suggestions, so first of all, 434 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:18,990 the that who appeared as anonymous to ask the questions is noting that they were not meant to be anonymous, but they are sent anonymously. 435 00:57:18,990 --> 00:57:22,200 This is how Life Teams event works. 436 00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:28,380 So I can just suggest if you want your name to be mentioned, I think it would be great to see who's asking what specific that we are. 437 00:57:28,380 --> 00:57:35,250 You know, we're 20 people or now. But it's a large enough group to know each other, not well enough to know each other. 438 00:57:35,250 --> 00:57:39,930 You can just write your name before the question and we'll know who's asking and I'll present you. 439 00:57:39,930 --> 00:57:45,930 You can, of course, remain anonymous. Another question is, if you can move, if you can change to zoom. 440 00:57:45,930 --> 00:57:49,710 Not this term. So many different elements playing here. 441 00:57:49,710 --> 00:57:50,730 I know this is a pain. 442 00:57:50,730 --> 00:57:59,160 Also, I can tell you for myself, but it was between the financial and the legal that the university is asking us to do this or I'm sorry. 443 00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:05,760 Ordering us to do it this way. And I think I'm picking my fights selectively right now. 444 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:15,980 So moving on to the third question, which was also actually on my list of issues to. 445 00:58:15,980 --> 00:58:21,740 Bring to discussion. It has to do with their Beduins involvement in the Israeli army. 446 00:58:21,740 --> 00:58:29,690 The question again from Anonymous, who probably didn't mean to be anonymous. How do you explain the very powerful involvement of bedlam in the IDF? 447 00:58:29,690 --> 00:58:38,720 In view of the terrible treatment of them, the Bedouin in the Israeli by the Israeli public and the legal system that you have so clearly outlined? 448 00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:48,250 So. It's also a very good question, and I would say that the involvement is not very strong. 449 00:58:48,250 --> 00:58:55,430 I mean, not every bed. I mean, the bed Beduins that are serving in days where the army are a minority of the Beddawi. 450 00:58:55,430 --> 00:58:58,180 I mean. 451 00:58:58,180 --> 00:59:09,280 Now, you have to understand a bit the history of the Beduins, I will say a few words about the history of what happened after, before and after 1948. 452 00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:16,960 So there is a debate about how many Bedouins were there before 1948 in the Negev. 453 00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:21,760 We estimate that something between 80, 200000 Bedouins. 454 00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:27,040 Israel thinks that it it it'll be a less. But it's not vey important for your question. 455 00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:40,420 What is important is to know that most Bedouins during the war moved away from the fighting forces during the war in the Negev, 456 00:59:40,420 --> 00:59:53,680 and the borders were not very clear. And then some of them moved, let's say, to Sinai or to to Jordan and so on. 457 00:59:53,680 --> 01:00:07,590 And then after 1948, there was a committee established during actually immediately during the war, after the war to decide. 458 01:00:07,590 --> 01:00:12,600 Who could return or remain in Israel of the Bedouins? 459 01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:20,160 And the committee that was headed, I think, by Yigal alone was the commander of this southern front. 460 01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:27,560 And so some very high ranking. Officers, not only an army, 461 01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:39,500 but officials also decided that what they called the friendly Beduins will be allowed to remain friendly Bedouins where Beduins, 462 01:00:39,500 --> 01:00:44,760 for example, that sold land to Jews before 1948. 463 01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:56,620 We're doing that. We're helping the IDF during or dagga now during the war, for example, as spies and stuff like that. 464 01:00:56,620 --> 01:01:06,940 Also, Beduins, that we're neutrals in subsets. So out of this many, many Beduins that existed lived in the area before 1948. 465 01:01:06,940 --> 01:01:11,840 They remain. I mean, it's a change until the late 50s. 466 01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:17,750 But there remained about twelve to fifteen thousand Bedouins in the Negev and there 467 01:01:17,750 --> 01:01:25,880 where the friendly Bedouins and the many of them received weapons from the Israeli army. 468 01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:33,890 And we're helping the Israeli army to keep the borders against the other Bedouins 469 01:01:33,890 --> 01:01:38,310 because Israel also used internal strife and so on and paid them and so on. 470 01:01:38,310 --> 01:01:46,270 So they began it. And I would also say that the Bedouins were not. 471 01:01:46,270 --> 01:01:50,080 A lot of them were very different. Their identity was not Palestinian. 472 01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:56,980 A lot of them, not all of them, but a lot of them have their internal Bedouin identity, their tribal identity. 473 01:01:56,980 --> 01:02:11,070 Many of them, not all of them, but some of them at least were not connected to, let's say, the Palestinian strife or at least those that remained. 474 01:02:11,070 --> 01:02:23,910 And so a Israel allow them to volunteer, it was not a draught that allowed them to volunteer to the IDF, to the Israeli Defence Forces. 475 01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:29,490 And it's also you have to understand that their occupation, their work. 476 01:02:29,490 --> 01:02:33,570 I mean, possibilities are not very big. We're not very big. 477 01:02:33,570 --> 01:02:41,040 So one of the things they could do is go and serve in the police, in the army and and so on. 478 01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:51,780 But in their last years, there is also a strong change within the Bedouin population and the Islamic movement is getting stronger. 479 01:02:51,780 --> 01:02:58,240 And also so there is also a decrease in their military service that will end in the following. 480 01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:01,530 Still, there are a lot of people that are serving officers. 481 01:03:01,530 --> 01:03:14,520 For example, I once took I was teaching a course in in society to a master in four Israeli judges, and I took them to our Dan recording's villages. 482 01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:23,310 And then came a Bedouin who said, look, on my left hand, this is my arm, me losing my. 483 01:03:23,310 --> 01:03:31,830 I just came back from serving in the reserve duty. And on the right side, it's the demolition order. 484 01:03:31,830 --> 01:03:35,470 And, you know, so. So this is also happening. 485 01:03:35,470 --> 01:03:40,680 I hear. I hear that guy. Yeah. This is my fault. 486 01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:49,060 I'm sorry I opened my microphone a bit too early. OK. So this is my my answer. 487 01:03:49,060 --> 01:03:53,400 Yes. Send it out. Several more very interesting questions. 488 01:03:53,400 --> 01:04:00,720 May I just ask you. I want to get to all of them. So if you're just, you know, answer them in an unsatisfactory, quick manner. 489 01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:08,640 OK. So these are questions for people who are probably within the organisations that we should we see their names. 490 01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:13,920 Joe Bergin asks well, says thank you for an excellent brief. 491 01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:19,950 Did the Bedouin of the Negev have a coherent political identity to make it to me to 492 01:04:19,950 --> 01:04:26,100 make this case that you have very clearly explained today formally for themselves? 493 01:04:26,100 --> 01:04:33,790 Do these really lawmakers? If not, how will the issue be addressed effectively? 494 01:04:33,790 --> 01:04:39,190 Well, you know, again, I'll be short. 495 01:04:39,190 --> 01:04:44,860 They don't have I mean, they see I mean, no, they don't have a coherent identity. 496 01:04:44,860 --> 01:04:49,080 I think, Nate, nobody of us has a green, coherent identity. 497 01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:55,360 I don't believe in coherence in identities, any help. And I think that the Bedouins are not different. 498 01:04:55,360 --> 01:05:03,340 For example, there is a fascinating movement of Bedouin feminist activists, which is amazing. 499 01:05:03,340 --> 01:05:11,020 For example, a Bedouin woman or a struggling against polygamy on one side in there. 500 01:05:11,020 --> 01:05:20,050 And they're against their dispossession of Bedouin and the other side in their demoralisation of woman and trying to go over, 501 01:05:20,050 --> 01:05:26,560 for example, tribal strife. And they're a key on marketings and stuff like that. 502 01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:32,710 So, of course, we now go here and I don't believe in coherence anyhow. 503 01:05:32,710 --> 01:05:35,680 I mean, full coherence. 504 01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:46,120 But does some organisation of the Bedouins, for example, there is an organisation which is called the Regional Council of UNrecognised Villages, 505 01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:52,270 which represent all the unrecognised villages and are pretty sophisticated. 506 01:05:52,270 --> 01:05:57,400 They use also the help of professionals, for example, the work that oh, 507 01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:06,170 and if the Fed did on planning was done with NGOs and with the regional council. 508 01:06:06,170 --> 01:06:16,300 So an. Now, politicians, us and are intellectuals, so. 509 01:06:16,300 --> 01:06:20,870 And now going sending a representative to the U.N. and so on. 510 01:06:20,870 --> 01:06:25,490 So but of course, say like many other things. 511 01:06:25,490 --> 01:06:33,890 There is also a policy of fair divide and rule by these very state that are, you know, things going on underneath. 512 01:06:33,890 --> 01:06:38,510 For example, people that receive land. 513 01:06:38,510 --> 01:06:40,490 And it's not clear how, you know, 514 01:06:40,490 --> 01:06:50,060 days where tries to buy some cooperation from leaders and they will give you access to water or electricity or I don't know what. 515 01:06:50,060 --> 01:06:56,550 But it's also very, very typical to politics of indigenous groups and the relationship with state. 516 01:06:56,550 --> 01:07:04,950 So this is the short answer. But now we are muted. 517 01:07:04,950 --> 01:07:05,590 Thank you. 518 01:07:05,590 --> 01:07:14,040 A short question that is probably deserving much more attention than we can give it in, you know, in whatever time we left is from Richard Kaplan. 519 01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:19,890 What is the legal. The Israeli public reaction to the murder in question? 520 01:07:19,890 --> 01:07:27,870 Again, Israeli public is general, but. And, you know, there are many different voices. 521 01:07:27,870 --> 01:07:36,480 It's interesting. I mean. It's the Bedouins are. 522 01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:44,340 I mean, Israel tries to concentrate the Bedouins in townships, but it's not it's not very successful. 523 01:07:44,340 --> 01:07:51,290 They destroy houses they are building. You know, there are a lot of people there. So. 524 01:07:51,290 --> 01:08:07,890 Even. I've thought a part of the officials, the authorities are understanding that there should be some kind of accommodation. 525 01:08:07,890 --> 01:08:09,890 There, for example, 526 01:08:09,890 --> 01:08:22,180 some mayors of their Jewish cities in the region that are working with the Bedouins because they understand that they have common interests also. 527 01:08:22,180 --> 01:08:29,300 There are some activists that work with the Bedouins, but by and large, there is a group. 528 01:08:29,300 --> 01:08:33,000 Right wing or groups are very much against it. 529 01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:41,130 For example, the NGO called Daily Gavin, which is also actually knockabout territory, is very active against them. 530 01:08:41,130 --> 01:08:45,660 People like Smoots, each in the right, a Edenic. 531 01:08:45,660 --> 01:08:54,180 You mean our party is really anti Beduins? Every even attempt of the state to make concession is seen as a selling. 532 01:08:54,180 --> 01:09:01,830 Did the land to the Bedouins and they opening the corridor between Gaza and the West Bank. 533 01:09:01,830 --> 01:09:08,670 If an Arab corridor moving from and threatening to the state. 534 01:09:08,670 --> 01:09:14,490 So it's it's it's very varied. 535 01:09:14,490 --> 01:09:20,400 But I would say most of the most of the public is just doesn't care a lot. 536 01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:28,510 At least if you don't live in the Negev and you don't. I would say, you know, there are also. 537 01:09:28,510 --> 01:09:40,660 And a lot of problems going on, you know, there is some criminality going on amongst some of the Bedouins. 538 01:09:40,660 --> 01:09:45,070 You know, it's when you look you were born as illegal. 539 01:09:45,070 --> 01:09:51,110 You know, some of them might. Again, it's complicated. So. So and. 540 01:09:51,110 --> 01:09:54,560 When you have no core or not, you know, there is, for example, 541 01:09:54,560 --> 01:10:06,440 that there was a very high rate of Karar nine out the largest recognise between village, a downtown city actually already. 542 01:10:06,440 --> 01:10:10,360 And of course, the Bedouins are working in Balser line, working in the in the region. 543 01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:16,430 So. So, you know, it's not that they leave it like that, that the distance is very small. 544 01:10:16,430 --> 01:10:23,820 It's not that we're not talking about Alaska. You know. 545 01:10:23,820 --> 01:10:31,110 Period. At least someone's question actually relates to the first question you touched upon slightly where you can expand, 546 01:10:31,110 --> 01:10:35,230 the question is what civil society organisations are involved in decision. 547 01:10:35,230 --> 01:10:41,160 Maybe you can name them on behalf of the Beduins. You also mentioned those who work against them. 548 01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:42,870 And the question continues. 549 01:10:42,870 --> 01:10:51,830 Do you think there is another domain which would be more helpful and successful added than the court system to advance the Bedouin case? 550 01:10:51,830 --> 01:11:01,680 OK, so there are quite a few ideals. As I said, the original Council of Fed, I'd recognised villagers. 551 01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:13,680 There is something called phone Dukey home was Jewish, Arab, some organisation of Yunker Bedouins like St. Divine. 552 01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:23,490 Others, they are just co-chairs of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel is working with them. 553 01:11:23,490 --> 01:11:34,650 Sometimes a dollar. And there is even though there is a bunch of fat and mules working with them and a bunch of NGO is working against them. 554 01:11:34,650 --> 01:11:43,590 Also activist or. That are not in angels' or publications and so on. 555 01:11:43,590 --> 01:11:52,200 So now about the alternative. I think actually that the court system is not it is not the right place for for solving. 556 01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:59,580 I was in favour of mediation, but there was an attempt. 557 01:11:59,580 --> 01:12:09,480 But then there is it happens often in Israel. Is that. When a new minister is nominated, they move to another system. 558 01:12:09,480 --> 01:12:22,380 So Sheetrit was the minister responsible for the Beduins about 15 years ago and cheque the possibility of having a mediation even brought a group. 559 01:12:22,380 --> 01:12:30,990 A lot as it had experienced a fair negotiation between state and the Native American tribes in the US. 560 01:12:30,990 --> 01:12:37,080 And they did a pilot and it seemed to have some kind of potential. 561 01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:40,140 But then they moved it to another body. 562 01:12:40,140 --> 01:12:50,880 See, I think that actually I think that that my view is that what can be very successful is a combination of several means. 563 01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:57,090 First of all, is what they call or the Palestine call, the summit, the clinging to the land. 564 01:12:57,090 --> 01:13:07,710 You know, it's very difficult. Each demolition of each house, you have to bring hundreds of policemen and other people. 565 01:13:07,710 --> 01:13:14,760 And it's costly and it's done. 566 01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:21,430 It's problematic. And then you build that and then you'd say you did it, demolish four or five houses. 567 01:13:21,430 --> 01:13:26,700 But now it's not very difficult to build them again. So they clinked. 568 01:13:26,700 --> 01:13:34,650 You know, if Israel also is somehow limited it, it's what it wants to do it it will do. 569 01:13:34,650 --> 01:13:38,520 I mean, if you want to win the Bedouins, really, you have to put Domina in in a camp, 570 01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:42,060 you know, even that it will not be ever very happy to close them there. 571 01:13:42,060 --> 01:13:53,580 So the sue mood, I think, is very effective. The fact that they cling to the land and also there is some effectiveness in international discourse. 572 01:13:53,580 --> 01:14:04,510 So my view. And also some kind of cooperation with a Jewish when you see balladeers and locals and so on. 573 01:14:04,510 --> 01:14:13,270 So Israel has been at trying to oust the Bedouins, Rahmat what they see as its own land for. 574 01:14:13,270 --> 01:14:18,310 At least since the last 20 years. 575 01:14:18,310 --> 01:14:33,160 And it has not been very successful. So that's yeah, yeah, I guess it's a lesson in UN political action. 576 01:14:33,160 --> 01:14:41,020 Maybe the last question from the Q&A and I would maybe allow myself one closing question. 577 01:14:41,020 --> 01:14:45,400 The question is for my handleable friend who is writing. 578 01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:50,530 Thank you very much for the talk I did is quoting you. 579 01:14:50,530 --> 01:14:57,250 The legal burden to establish the rights against this stipulations rests solely on the Bedouin. 580 01:14:57,250 --> 01:15:06,490 And if your quote. Can you elaborate on this more and how they can get past this obstacle that imposed on them? 581 01:15:06,490 --> 01:15:11,600 Is there any chance that they will prove their ownership in the Israeli court system? 582 01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:18,460 Secondly, activism versus academia, what you mentioned maybe earlier in the opening. 583 01:15:18,460 --> 01:15:25,750 This is a fascinating topic. How can you draw the line were to be involved in the cases as an activist and intellectual, 584 01:15:25,750 --> 01:15:30,460 engaged, intellectual and not and not interfere with your work as a scholar. 585 01:15:30,460 --> 01:15:36,280 Nowadays, we need those voices in academia in order to engage with the changes we are hoping for. 586 01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:41,120 Thank you. OK. Thank you very much. 587 01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:46,820 So first question is about the burden of proof. I understand how you can overcome it. 588 01:15:46,820 --> 01:15:53,140 Yeah. So. Israel. 589 01:15:53,140 --> 01:16:05,350 I mean, I've written about it for many years already. This is a great system of legitimation because you don't say you then have a right. 590 01:16:05,350 --> 01:16:13,190 But what you say is you make the procedures and the burden of proof very, very difficult. 591 01:16:13,190 --> 01:16:16,840 So, again, we did not invent it. It happened in many settler colonial system. 592 01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:27,790 You say you just have to prove or you have a certain amount of day to file a complaint or a two to claim a claim. 593 01:16:27,790 --> 01:16:31,040 And you know that. 594 01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:42,980 Because of internal dynamics, because of problem, of bringing the the the the the proof and did evidence, you cannot do it in 30 days or a year then. 595 01:16:42,980 --> 01:16:45,530 So. And then the cases ended. 596 01:16:45,530 --> 01:16:56,850 You know, I've I've done some comparative work on what happened with the Cardinals in a southern United States when it was conquered by you. 597 01:16:56,850 --> 01:17:03,920 Bye bye. The United States, you know, Mexico with conquered and they tried to claim their rights to the land, 598 01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:08,330 actually, that were Mexican origin, who came from Spain or whatever. 599 01:17:08,330 --> 01:17:14,510 But they where many of them were not natives, but they were their enemy anyhow. 600 01:17:14,510 --> 01:17:29,330 So. So usually, I mean, it's Israel establish certain rules which says that when you argue against. 601 01:17:29,330 --> 01:17:34,080 The claim of its state of the state on land shoes. 602 01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:41,930 The burden is on you. Now, as I said. 603 01:17:41,930 --> 01:17:47,990 It's almost ending the discourse. It's it's a mechanism that legitimating it. 604 01:17:47,990 --> 01:17:51,860 Now, what can you do? You can struggle about it. You can show it. 605 01:17:51,860 --> 01:17:59,170 You can show that it's it's like saying that you don't have a right. 606 01:17:59,170 --> 01:18:04,820 And in other countries, they start to understand that this is this is not justice. 607 01:18:04,820 --> 01:18:11,290 This is ridiculous. So what can we do? 608 01:18:11,290 --> 01:18:16,620 You have to struggle. About activism and and academia. 609 01:18:16,620 --> 01:18:21,940 So. I think that there are several models of academics. 610 01:18:21,940 --> 01:18:28,510 There is a model that a scientist does not talk to the viruses. 611 01:18:28,510 --> 01:18:33,280 OK? You don't you don't befriend with viruses and so on. 612 01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:38,340 If you want to do research, I. 613 01:18:38,340 --> 01:18:44,290 I don't believe in it. I mean, for myself, I think that we are a privileged group. 614 01:18:44,290 --> 01:18:53,380 And my view as the social role of academics of myself, I don't say it's the only model is that I am a very few in a privileged position. 615 01:18:53,380 --> 01:18:56,890 I can do what I want. I can research what I want. 616 01:18:56,890 --> 01:19:10,360 I can say I have tenure and I can produce knowledge that is autonomous, unlike what happens with people that work for the state or for the market. 617 01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:21,960 So we have a privileged position of producing knowledge. Now, I think that people would say that they are objective, often not. 618 01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:27,850 I just think the best they think they are objective, but they come with their pretty preconditions. 619 01:19:27,850 --> 01:19:39,280 Now, what I do and of course, in my field, if you work and give counselling to reach people or reach companies, that's fine. 620 01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:44,360 Or if you do volunteer work for Beduins, then you are not objective, you know. 621 01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:50,190 And I do. It is a on a volunteer basis. So. 622 01:19:50,190 --> 01:20:00,300 But my position is the following. I see academic knowledge as a group endeavour and not as a private endeavour. 623 01:20:00,300 --> 01:20:11,190 Now, what we do in this book, for example, we knew there is another group of scholars like what is working with the state. 624 01:20:11,190 --> 01:20:16,230 We write about it in the book, you know, of the politics of academia and so on. 625 01:20:16,230 --> 01:20:24,540 And it's very similar to things that happened in Australia in the Mabu case, which is a very important case about Aboriginal land rights. 626 01:20:24,540 --> 01:20:35,040 So when we wrote the book, I knew that every footnote, as I say, every sentence and every footnote will be checked. 627 01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:41,900 And I made sure that on every footnote, not on the I checked, but independently, 628 01:20:41,900 --> 01:20:56,030 two research assistants checked what I was writing because I knew that it will be under much more scrutiny than regular work. 629 01:20:56,030 --> 01:21:06,230 And indeed, since the book was published and before that with published articles, that there was a lot of criticism so far, 630 01:21:06,230 --> 01:21:13,640 I think I must say I'm very happy that they did not find anything that we lied or wasn't correct. 631 01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:24,020 But this is the way I see it. I mean, I see knowledge, academic knowledge as a working out of discourse and debate. 632 01:21:24,020 --> 01:21:31,550 And you refute something and you continue. And I put my prejudice upfront or my position upfront. 633 01:21:31,550 --> 01:21:35,060 I also don't do that when I teach. I say this is where I do. 634 01:21:35,060 --> 01:21:43,060 This is where I come. And you let a student have to be critical specifically about his position. 635 01:21:43,060 --> 01:21:47,030 Well, when I do it, that's the best. 636 01:21:47,030 --> 01:21:51,050 I think it did. Thank. 637 01:21:51,050 --> 01:21:58,310 Thank you so much. Um, exercise self-control and, uh, avoid asking all those questions that I have for you. 638 01:21:58,310 --> 01:22:05,720 Maybe we'll keep it for a more personal session. Unfortunately, I can invite you not to have tea together. 639 01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:09,980 I want to thank you so much for this fascinating dog. Thank you also for the attendees. 640 01:22:09,980 --> 01:22:15,800 I'm sorry we cannot see you and we cannot hang around for the small dog. 641 01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:22,820 Maybe that's the most crucial element missing from those virtual forums that we don't have now. 642 01:22:22,820 --> 01:22:28,030 The chance to mingle together and to ask question. I am allowing myself to speak in this. 643 01:22:28,030 --> 01:22:36,350 And his name, if you want to ask more than I did in reading your work, maybe you can reach out to him immediately, directly write to him. 644 01:22:36,350 --> 01:22:44,540 And I'm sure he'd be happy to continue the conversation. Please note that our Israel study seminar is now going bi weekly. 645 01:22:44,540 --> 01:22:54,770 And next week we're dedicating that same spot for a different see, similar serious reconsidering early Jewish nationalism. 646 01:22:54,770 --> 01:23:01,820 Where you Wollar from a source will be the speaker you have the details for with on all relevant websites. 647 01:23:01,820 --> 01:23:08,170 Thank you so much for attending. Thank you, Sandy, for making yourself available in these hard times. 648 01:23:08,170 --> 01:23:19,967 And and good luck with your work. Thank you very much.