1 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:12,110 Good afternoon and welcome, everybody. My name is Jack Cobargo. 2 00:00:12,110 --> 00:00:19,790 For those of you are used to see Peter opening these sessions, I have to apologise for taking over. 3 00:00:19,790 --> 00:00:26,330 The reason for me taking over is that. And the format of our seminar today would be slightly different. 4 00:00:26,330 --> 00:00:40,110 Our guest today is a real delight and pleasure to actually welcome you while you wait for the second time to Oxford, the Israeli studies universe. 5 00:00:40,110 --> 00:00:50,330 Dr. Evil, every who is currently in the delivery room, early career fellow at King's College and deals in his research on cultural and 6 00:00:50,330 --> 00:00:56,390 political history of Palestine on the land of Israel at the turn of the 20th century. 7 00:00:56,390 --> 00:01:05,900 And he's dealt extensively with issues of far in our Jewish thought, which lie really at the heart of his research. 8 00:01:05,900 --> 00:01:08,270 And as if end of this teaching. 9 00:01:08,270 --> 00:01:18,320 I'm sorry, you can't research traces a multi lingual translations and cultural models that emerged in the beginning of the 20th century, 10 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:20,120 Palestine or Land of Israel, 11 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:30,010 and explores how their fluidity inherent in these cultural models becomes a source of resistance to the dominant monolingual forces, 12 00:01:30,010 --> 00:01:38,750 a method that we've discussed quite extensively in this similar serious and to any exclusive claims of ownership of land, 13 00:01:38,750 --> 00:01:48,530 text, traditions or languages. And the occasion for the seminar today is the publications of a publication of you was new Hebrew 14 00:01:48,530 --> 00:01:57,890 book The Return to the Loose Dispute over a Safadi culture and Identity between Arabic and Hebrew, 15 00:01:57,890 --> 00:02:01,850 which was published earlier this year by McGinest Press. 16 00:02:01,850 --> 00:02:11,340 The Hebrew University is a UVB Noyce's press, and I should also say that this is a wonderful occasion to also celebrate, in a sense, 17 00:02:11,340 --> 00:02:22,480 a farewell to your vile who is leaving us soon to the land of prose Trump to take their moreish 18 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:30,080 an account sharing Ottoman with Rock and Sephardi Jewish studies at Brandeis University. 19 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:35,310 So we will. Will. Thank you. And welcome to the seminar. 20 00:02:35,310 --> 00:02:39,550 Thank you, cost. And thank you for this kind introduction and for the invitation. 21 00:02:39,550 --> 00:02:49,940 Thank you, Peter, for that. So the format of the seminar today and again, this is why I took over from from Peter. 22 00:02:49,940 --> 00:02:58,240 And thank you, Peter, for allowing us to do so. Is that instead of a lecture and a one sided presentation of the book, 23 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:07,720 we thought it would be more intuitive and more maybe interesting with the flow of this format to have a discussion, not really a dialogue, 24 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:15,040 because I want to ask the questions and I hope you will find them interesting to answer, 25 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:20,770 but maybe this will give us a better understanding of the project, which is of immense importance. 26 00:03:20,770 --> 00:03:25,540 So you will let us start with this. Very well, you're right. 27 00:03:25,540 --> 00:03:28,270 Let's just note that the book talks about the father, 28 00:03:28,270 --> 00:03:37,210 the food which Hebrew allows us to inflict to add the nest to save our day nests in a sense in which doesn't really accept it. 29 00:03:37,210 --> 00:03:42,610 And there's something interesting going on with identifying if our duties are phenomena. 30 00:03:42,610 --> 00:03:52,270 The book suggests that we return to to the discussion, the historical discussion or debate over Safaa. 31 00:03:52,270 --> 00:03:56,620 The author of Safadi Dienes. Let's call it the history, 32 00:03:56,620 --> 00:04:06,550 the tradition that is identified under SSAFA readiness and also maybe to begin with a 33 00:04:06,550 --> 00:04:14,470 re-examination of the Israeli present or maybe Weiden in that the Jewish global present. 34 00:04:14,470 --> 00:04:26,770 You do so by retracing, in a sense, a political thought, historical cultural interventions, but by a fascinating list of intellectuals. 35 00:04:26,770 --> 00:04:33,460 I thought maybe if you allow me this, I'm taking too much with one question just to mention the names. 36 00:04:33,460 --> 00:04:37,420 I think this is someone like Sami Shalom. 37 00:04:37,420 --> 00:04:42,530 She tweets boyin were, you know, narrating the name is the action, the act. 38 00:04:42,530 --> 00:04:47,520 But just to mention the names, because they're not often heard. And I don't want you to feel uncomfortable mentioning all of them. 39 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:59,710 Time and again, amongst those who study and I'm reading from the book itself, we can count Avraham Shalom, Yuda, Shole, Abdallah Yousef, 40 00:04:59,710 --> 00:05:12,450 the video, Lehn, Yousef, Me or Hust Shame on Moyal, Estelle Moyal as Hari Yousef David Ma'mun Nissim Malu Haim Natale Mohamed Mallia, Yusef Ali. 41 00:05:12,450 --> 00:05:15,000 I will flush the video we saw Ali. 42 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:25,480 I will assure you that Bhullar you Huck our buddy the end Hindman kicky each one of them, an intellectual giant who unfortunately kind of, you know, 43 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:35,980 most of the missing or missing either from the discourse at large or missing from the Safadi discourse, such as the case of the video link. 44 00:05:35,980 --> 00:05:43,150 So let us start and finally ask the question by really trying to figure out what this disturbed means. 45 00:05:43,150 --> 00:05:46,960 What is it for the youth? What is the far readiness? How do you understand it? 46 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:54,050 And how did this intellectuals whom you follow understood it? 47 00:05:54,050 --> 00:06:00,570 OK. Thank you very much. Colin, I want to start with saying that I'm really happy that we're doing this format of discussion, 48 00:06:00,570 --> 00:06:05,820 because doing my writing this book, I had lots of discussion with you and I learnt a lot from it. 49 00:06:05,820 --> 00:06:18,110 And in a way, it's continuation of this discussions. So in the way that the initial the initial interest in what you said sissified you would Safadi. 50 00:06:18,110 --> 00:06:24,630 And this was part of a research journey into the long, what you call it, 51 00:06:24,630 --> 00:06:33,570 the long Safadi Miyazaki Eastby inquest into Zahidi story beyond the boundaries of the national estate from the beginning, 52 00:06:33,570 --> 00:06:41,520 its bulk set of questions, how can we write to find the exactly history in a post partitioned era? 53 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:48,120 How can we we imagine its historical geographical scope after more than a can, 54 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:55,530 essentially of physical, social, cultural and political displacements, marginalisation and negation. 55 00:06:55,530 --> 00:07:02,580 But it a step partition. And you found not only to the partition of Palestine in 1948, but also this. 56 00:07:02,580 --> 00:07:08,110 So the separations of disciplines, traditions, histories and languages. 57 00:07:08,110 --> 00:07:15,230 The suppression of people in Arabic, Hebrew literature, in Arabic literature of Judaism and Islam. 58 00:07:15,230 --> 00:07:19,410 And Zionism and Arab nationalism. Jewishness, madness. 59 00:07:19,410 --> 00:07:23,730 And the suppression of Alanda Lowson and Spide. 60 00:07:23,730 --> 00:07:32,130 So it is not surprising that in the post partition environment, this partition environment, boundaries become such a crucial, 61 00:07:32,130 --> 00:07:43,830 crucial issue in the research of modern safadi Arab Jewish history and the bonda a boundary lines in terms of language and plurality and space place. 62 00:07:43,830 --> 00:07:50,850 They are far from being clear. What, for instance, is the linguistic scope of what the linguist? 63 00:07:50,850 --> 00:07:57,960 What is that? The language that we need to research, says Safadi Ness, a modern Sephardic history. 64 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:06,050 Is it a literate Arabic? Is a table Judeo-Arabic, Ladino, Spanish, French or English? 65 00:08:06,050 --> 00:08:12,150 It should be discussed in the research. This is a division of a larger Jewish history. 66 00:08:12,150 --> 00:08:20,670 Or should it be considered as part of Hebrew, Arabic, Middle Eastern, Spanish or post-colonial historical framework? 67 00:08:20,670 --> 00:08:25,890 In addition to that, we have the question of meaning. And that's a critical question. 68 00:08:25,890 --> 00:08:31,590 And it's it's going back to what you started with. What is five Udaltsov fuzziness? 69 00:08:31,590 --> 00:08:40,140 So which term should we use to define the collective entity or identity which lies at the centre of this research field? 70 00:08:40,140 --> 00:08:45,960 Is it the Sephardi Jews? Is it Arab Jews, Muslim, Ottoman Jews? 71 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:56,660 Or maybe Middle East regions? What kind of historical, lingual geographical and political sets of issues are encoded in each term? 72 00:08:56,660 --> 00:09:03,770 In fact, there is no one name or term that can fully represent this unified entity, 73 00:09:03,770 --> 00:09:10,420 and in my book I try to trace the formation of different names and terms. 74 00:09:10,420 --> 00:09:18,380 So from early stages of my research, I understood that we, meaning me and other scholars of Safadi history, 75 00:09:18,380 --> 00:09:27,860 already navigating in their narrow and limited scope and adapting into the posts, partition, fragmented academic landscape and political reality. 76 00:09:27,860 --> 00:09:35,280 And I also understood that the need for adapting to adapting new metal or new ways 77 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:41,930 stone-Cold frameworks which recognised by by also go beyond calling geographical, 78 00:09:41,930 --> 00:09:53,150 historical and disciplinary boundaries and in a way to to explore Safadi of Jewish Misrati history in its fullness and complexity. 79 00:09:53,150 --> 00:09:59,930 So the first thing I decided to do is to to shift the focus to the pro partition era and to explore 80 00:09:59,930 --> 00:10:06,950 the partitioning process itself by shifting the focus to those formative moments of transition, 81 00:10:06,950 --> 00:10:11,120 such as the turn of the 20th century. That is in the centre of my book. 82 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:19,130 We can identify cultural and political divisions that emerge at the time, but were negated, marginalised and forgotten. 83 00:10:19,130 --> 00:10:27,140 It also enable us to trace episodes of resistance, destruction and dispute that appears during these crucial moments. 84 00:10:27,140 --> 00:10:31,220 But it's vanished from the official historical narrative. 85 00:10:31,220 --> 00:10:41,430 So the turn of the 20th century Palestine is if it is a formative period in the model and Jewish history and in the history of Israel Palestine. 86 00:10:41,430 --> 00:10:47,270 It is a period of shifting gay imperial orders and time of emerging national movement. 87 00:10:47,270 --> 00:10:53,260 It is also that Zuhur moment of the Israeli Palestinian national conflict. 88 00:10:53,260 --> 00:11:01,940 So against the background, what's this dramatic political and social events of the period that the book explores the way in which Safad, 89 00:11:01,940 --> 00:11:10,500 the intellectuals fundamental, fundamentally challenged their nationalistic and monolingual separatist ideologies? 90 00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:16,750 And that was dominant in their time and propose and ultimately political and cultural roots. 91 00:11:16,750 --> 00:11:24,380 So you have intellectuals there. The names that you mentioned who died and then in Malaysia, Isobar, 92 00:11:24,380 --> 00:11:32,440 Malia Simulcasts and others were part of most of them, born in the second part of the 19th century. 93 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:38,260 Most of them in Palestine. Not all of them were part of the growing circles of Safadi local scholars and 94 00:11:38,260 --> 00:11:42,790 were engaged in different intellectual and activities such as translation. 95 00:11:42,790 --> 00:11:50,200 If you read the patient journalism, technology and education and they wrote extensively on them, 96 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:57,410 the Lucien thinkers and poet such as My Munadi Susan Levy, modest in a given as I mean you've been, 97 00:11:57,410 --> 00:12:07,570 they focus focussing on their intimate connexion to Arabic philosophy and for its readers and those historical figures represented there for them, 98 00:12:07,570 --> 00:12:12,770 an ideal type, you can say, for Jewish modernisation and modern looks. 99 00:12:12,770 --> 00:12:22,730 People are be in some symbiosis of three Hebrew and Jewish cultural revival in conversation, in connexion with Arabic language and me. 100 00:12:22,730 --> 00:12:30,730 Some thought in this context that they view their historical moment as a kind of Andalusian moment. 101 00:12:30,730 --> 00:12:37,540 So here again, Safadi Ness coming back. So fabulous as a moment, as an idea, as it is a model. 102 00:12:37,540 --> 00:12:43,550 It was a moment of reunion of Jews and Muslims, Arabs and Hebrews in a shared homeland here. 103 00:12:43,550 --> 00:12:52,230 Now, Palestine, as it was in London's before the expulsion of Jews and Muslims from the land as the not the most this moment. 104 00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:57,010 Also the opportunities for establishing a joint Hebrew in our country, 105 00:12:57,010 --> 00:13:11,080 a moment of new encounters and promises of shared culture and and a shared future based on revival of the great Judeo-Arabic Andalusian heritage. 106 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:15,360 So this intellectuals again, Bonning, their second part of the ninth century, 107 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:21,550 where are active members in both Hebrew and Arabic revival movements at the time that's collapsed. 108 00:13:21,550 --> 00:13:25,660 And then that same moment. 109 00:13:25,660 --> 00:13:36,550 During the late Ottoman era, they operated within a range of conflicting political and ideological affinities of the time they were committed today, 110 00:13:36,550 --> 00:13:42,040 merging national Jewish Zionism the day they considered their certain Zionists. 111 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,600 In that time, we'll talk maybe later what it means. 112 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:53,530 They identified they identified with their Ottoman political formation, then Zormat, and with the ethos of the shared Ottoman homeland, its waste. 113 00:13:53,530 --> 00:13:56,470 In that time. That moment. 114 00:13:56,470 --> 00:14:05,050 And they emphasised their affiliation with the Arab revival movement with the not and the joint historical legacy and Judeo Muslim into their country. 115 00:14:05,050 --> 00:14:13,010 This kind of affiliation and multiple affiliation with people and loyalties may be considered as contradictory for them in that moment. 116 00:14:13,010 --> 00:14:17,770 It's something was even a complimentary help to to establish that vibe. 117 00:14:17,770 --> 00:14:21,650 He bought the gun together with Reviser looks at how we can sign so far. 118 00:14:21,650 --> 00:14:30,160 We can talk about it maybe later in our conversation in a way that was developed in relation and his reaction to the emergence 119 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:39,820 of Hebrew in Arabic national cultural movement that the Devizes is an wonderly monolingual and nationalistic movement. 120 00:14:39,820 --> 00:14:49,150 And the day amongst themselves and with the European Jewish counterparts, Ashkenazi, they discussed and debated how they research it, 121 00:14:49,150 --> 00:14:55,260 how to research cultural heritage of an Andalusia, the Safadi legacy that she points me of Spain. 122 00:14:55,260 --> 00:15:02,420 How is it on the Hebrew legacy? Is it they have to be outby Keibel email a bilingual legacy. 123 00:15:02,420 --> 00:15:05,930 Is it Easter and legacy, its Western legacy? 124 00:15:05,930 --> 00:15:15,860 But in addition, they debated how their modern Jewish Cultural and national project in Palestine, Zionism should relate to the Arabic language. 125 00:15:15,860 --> 00:15:20,220 Did the language of the land therefore speak with the language of their own language? 126 00:15:20,220 --> 00:15:27,460 Jewish. Is the Jewish language to the Palestinian Arab natives into the Ottoman state. 127 00:15:27,460 --> 00:15:35,260 So in a way, the book, by explaining these debates in this contested representation of Andalusian identity and culture, 128 00:15:35,260 --> 00:15:40,180 a re-examines some fundamental issues that imagine the turn of the century. 129 00:15:40,180 --> 00:15:46,670 And we still continue with Asanti today that the national conflict between Jews and Palestinians, 130 00:15:46,670 --> 00:15:55,960 the conflicts and splits between people and cultures and the ethnic Parbo relations between those. 131 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:05,110 Thank you. Is this a rather short introduction? Suggested so much in this book and do so much to discuss that we, you know, 132 00:16:05,110 --> 00:16:13,060 couldn't possibly cover all but to maybe focus stays on the theme of the seven or serious. 133 00:16:13,060 --> 00:16:17,230 You know, we we call it the reconsidering. Yeah. 134 00:16:17,230 --> 00:16:23,310 We were afraid to hold the seminar is reconsidering early Jewish nationalism or modern Jewish nationalism. 135 00:16:23,310 --> 00:16:28,850 And this is where your contribution is so important. 136 00:16:28,850 --> 00:16:38,500 Until now, all of our discussions were European, not only in geographical and historical terms, but also in conceptual and epistemological terms. 137 00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:48,820 It was a thinking of Jewish nationalism within the European history and the European conceptual toolkit in a sense. 138 00:16:48,820 --> 00:16:54,330 And the reference points have always been towards other European cases. 139 00:16:54,330 --> 00:16:59,110 And this brings me to the question. I want to actually I would like you again to expand on. 140 00:16:59,110 --> 00:17:00,400 So as you already suggested, 141 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:14,080 a main theme of your whole investigation is how this diverse group of writers and different opinions on address and on the loose. 142 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:18,510 Southern Spain, this historical event, even moment. 143 00:17:18,510 --> 00:17:29,760 And as a role model is something that could maybe inspire a rejuvenation or a rethinking of the president. 144 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:35,740 And they don't do this in a vacuum because they have counterparts also from the Palestinian side, from the Arab world, who do the same. 145 00:17:35,740 --> 00:17:40,540 Also from obviously the European side. So maybe let's start with this issue. 146 00:17:40,540 --> 00:17:45,700 What does the Luce mean to this diverse group of people? 147 00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:52,240 What is in this model that is so promising? 148 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:57,040 And also, let me just, you know, to to ask a question, how does it correspond with competing? 149 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,030 What specifically? I think you mentioned it already in your introduction that what what we have 150 00:18:01,030 --> 00:18:05,620 you in play is an alternative to this rising notion of Jewish nationalism, 151 00:18:05,620 --> 00:18:09,310 as Zionism also is the boon that other group of that. 152 00:18:09,310 --> 00:18:20,790 So once you tell us what the Lusi is, can you also explain what what alternative that is holds regarding that kind of nationalism? 153 00:18:20,790 --> 00:18:25,020 Yes. I think it's you know, I think that the essence of the book, 154 00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:35,240 it in a ways is this is to trace a Londolozi or sex aloud all the names of the billionaire heritage. 155 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,960 Joe Oh. Oh, she. That's flat. 156 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:49,270 And the identity of a Sephardic Jewish identity as a moment that devised in the 19th century in different naming and different representations. 157 00:18:49,270 --> 00:18:57,970 So this intellectuals are seen that they in in in the creation of Jewish studies that really establish the end of the ninth century, 158 00:18:57,970 --> 00:19:07,420 early 20th century through history, and that the Hebrew literature and the study of people literature and that did rise the ninth century, 159 00:19:07,420 --> 00:19:15,280 mainly in European circles, killing Jewish circles and then in the TIAR, the Jewish year has collapsed. 160 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:26,230 He Muscala circles Safad and on the Sephardic tradition of mediaeval time, becoming very important point of reference. 161 00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:37,270 So people from Mendelssohn onwards see he sees a philander is a point of reference to it as a model for modernisation of Jewish culture, 162 00:19:37,270 --> 00:19:44,410 as a model for them, as a as for European culture. The way Jewish you would think culture Jewish should great culture aside. 163 00:19:44,410 --> 00:19:52,310 Also another, you know, Jewish tradition, culture and culture that arise inside of a big culture. 164 00:19:52,310 --> 00:19:58,360 Same as happening in Europe in the way that they emphasise this aspect in the Hebrew school 165 00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:04,470 out there that emphasised aspects of Hebrew and nationalisations or a marginalisation, 166 00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:09,830 commercialisation. And they see themselves as heresy of this culture. 167 00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:23,030 In the same time, they they separate this this this legacy from their SAFADI communities that they meet in Palestine and the Ottoman Empire. 168 00:20:23,030 --> 00:20:28,420 And they do see them in a way, the opposite. They're not the heroes of this legacy if they're too far. 169 00:20:28,420 --> 00:20:39,730 The legacy of evil is his rationale is that his western Israel is one of the golden ages or the golden points of Jewish history. 170 00:20:39,730 --> 00:20:42,970 It is Sephardic Jews in Ottoman Empire out there coming, 171 00:20:42,970 --> 00:20:50,980 the representatives of eastern mass of backwoods, a culture of the opposite of what happened to them, 172 00:20:50,980 --> 00:21:00,940 and that this is kind of the the intellectuals, the being the centre of this of this Balkan and who and others are scholars of something. 173 00:21:00,940 --> 00:21:06,850 Even they have the German scholarship in that sense. And they see this movement and they are disputing against. 174 00:21:06,850 --> 00:21:12,750 First of all, they dispute it against their negation of our big stick into them. 175 00:21:12,750 --> 00:21:18,730 So far, the legacy of mediæval, they say you can learn you would then Ellisville was a seaborn asla. 176 00:21:18,730 --> 00:21:25,660 Oh it. Oh, humble mon. Other great thinkers and writers of Off-Air mediaeval Spain without knowing Arabic, 177 00:21:25,660 --> 00:21:31,150 not knowing, are to understand the great influence of Arabic into this writing. 178 00:21:31,150 --> 00:21:44,080 And for them it's a it's a legacy of of of bi lingual and coexistence of Judeo Muslim that you can't you can make it without one in another. 179 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:53,590 And then they see that that the trend will be that there is the separation until you can see until today that you can study Hebrew literature and oh, 180 00:21:53,590 --> 00:21:57,280 you are leaving the university without knowing how said to them. 181 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:06,070 So it's it's that that's the trend today. They wanted to stop and they saw the same thing happening in how they had the separation between Safadi, 182 00:22:06,070 --> 00:22:09,790 modern safadi control and identity with this legacy. 183 00:22:09,790 --> 00:22:13,090 And they were against it and they saw it in the same way. 184 00:22:13,090 --> 00:22:22,690 And for them, it was the same thing of what happened with the settlers first settler Zionists coming to Palestine and not learning Arabic, 185 00:22:22,690 --> 00:22:27,100 the language of the land. For them, it's the simplest test. Exactly if you want to revive Hebrew. 186 00:22:27,100 --> 00:22:33,370 And there were the first the first committee of that was one of the first people that we people. 187 00:22:33,370 --> 00:22:37,180 But they saw it as a joint. Exactly what happened in London. 188 00:22:37,180 --> 00:22:42,100 Again, this is coming back as a joint project. The people in Arabic revivalism. 189 00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:50,710 So it's it's for them, it's exactly the same logic that they were bringing scholars negating Arabic in the research of psephology. 190 00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:57,750 That's a father's tragic legacy of mediaeval time. And the ones that come into Palestine don't are big as the language of the Lengen. 191 00:22:57,750 --> 00:23:06,670 And there's a Jewish language because the language and the language of Udai Levy and others really important scholars. 192 00:23:06,670 --> 00:23:20,060 So what? So I think they're very crudely we could separate the two interesting elements within this land. 193 00:23:20,060 --> 00:23:24,240 Uh, Orlanda Luther. Well, one more dead. 194 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:29,690 There's a cultural one, which is, you know. 195 00:23:29,690 --> 00:23:38,540 Could be appropriated by non Sephardim, not just in the sense of, you know, not belonging to a SAFADI tradition, 196 00:23:38,540 --> 00:23:49,130 but almost to a point of know orientalism, the objects that have carried so far. 197 00:23:49,130 --> 00:23:56,070 And then recruited within. A different understanding of Jewish modernity all together. 198 00:23:56,070 --> 00:24:01,860 And then there's a political reading of this is, I think, what I would ask you to focus on for a second. 199 00:24:01,860 --> 00:24:06,860 What what political horizons would Woody Allen, 200 00:24:06,860 --> 00:24:13,500 Linda Lucy and Ron Moore then offer these thinkers just to to to clarify the 201 00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:20,120 point when when we discuss the turn of the century national thinking in Europe, 202 00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:24,150 it's clear that the nation state is the horizon on that island. 203 00:24:24,150 --> 00:24:30,090 Alanda, lose. The one thing we can say wider than the loose in terms of Jewish history is that there wasn't Jewish sovereignty, 204 00:24:30,090 --> 00:24:34,090 there wasn't Jewish self-rule, there was Jewish politics. 205 00:24:34,090 --> 00:24:42,150 Some Jews took famously has Davidge your fruit was a, you know, a military man and an A and a diploma. 206 00:24:42,150 --> 00:24:52,710 But it couldn't possibly, I would say, naively be understood as a model for modern Jewish nation state ism. 207 00:24:52,710 --> 00:24:56,480 So what is the political horizon or promise there? 208 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:02,100 Yes, I think it is. It is two questions. The first question is why? 209 00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:03,750 Alanda Loose is very important, 210 00:25:03,750 --> 00:25:11,430 not only because the discussion with the European Jewish think in the same time they see that in the mad that the revival 211 00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:21,210 of the Arabic and Arabic nationalism Alanda misses the point of reference as well for the Arab scholars of the time. 212 00:25:21,210 --> 00:25:25,080 And they saw themselves as part some of them were really part of this circle. 213 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:32,100 Some of them, when he saw it from afar, but very in affiliations of people like you, Mr. Moir lent him only and in the summer, 214 00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:41,300 lool actively in this circles of mad that in the same time they were actively in the seconds of a scholar and he will evangelise. 215 00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:46,270 And so they see that the Arab nationalism, the local nationalism of the place is going back as well. 216 00:25:46,270 --> 00:25:51,180 Well, Lankan's. So this is a point of reference if we want to be in the shared society. 217 00:25:51,180 --> 00:25:58,950 So it's a point of reference that you can speak to the Arab world living with us, that this is going to be the base of our living together. 218 00:25:58,950 --> 00:26:05,030 The second point of reference that is usually missed in and now the reason we tend to it and I'm happy about it. 219 00:26:05,030 --> 00:26:12,980 And I think it's very important is the Ottoman context. Usually we talk about there, there, there, there the Palestinian Jewish conflict. 220 00:26:12,980 --> 00:26:16,560 And there is your point is the British. And we avoid the ultimate. 221 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:23,190 And I think it's very important context and it's bringing different kinds of logics and it's political objects that happened there. 222 00:26:23,190 --> 00:26:28,920 And the logic that the Ottoman developed in either developing in the Ottoman Empire in the end of the 223 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:37,350 19th century is a logic of multiple realities that people can be isolated as Armenians and the Ottoman. 224 00:26:37,350 --> 00:26:43,200 And there's no live in sort of Mekhi and Stenborg in other parts of the Ottoman Empire. 225 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:52,270 And the same way it was was right for the people that lived under the Arab province of the Ottoman Empire. 226 00:26:52,270 --> 00:27:00,080 So it can be Arab nationalism, maybe not the movement and an Ottoman National in the same time. 227 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:08,010 And it's the same for this Ottoman Jews and native Jews that were, again, 228 00:27:08,010 --> 00:27:19,440 very part of this kind of nationalisation of the Ottoman Empire and the building of their shared the Ottoman there in a nation that they saw the day, 229 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:20,430 their project of. 230 00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:28,680 Of the Zionist project, of the point of the Vaska loved Hebrew in a revival of people cultural going together with their project of Ottoman musician. 231 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:33,150 And the project of ABBA and the Arab. 232 00:27:33,150 --> 00:27:39,750 So this kind of multiple that, you know, you can see it very strongly in their debates because they understand it. 233 00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:47,390 And the settlers then secondly, are people with common resisted their their suggestion to open their newspaper 234 00:27:47,390 --> 00:27:52,460 to Jewish newspapers in Arabic and that and etc. don't understand this logic. 235 00:27:52,460 --> 00:27:56,640 And they're going back again. You know, the logic of the Ottoman Empire is different. 236 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:01,760 It's not competing loyalties is the loyalties that are coming together. 237 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,280 And we can walk and is of course, we've gone back and we'll talk later. 238 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:11,700 What about language? It's not a monolingual it's a multilingual language is can operate together. 239 00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:14,740 So this is there if you going back. 240 00:28:14,740 --> 00:28:23,190 This is the moment that that's that the political and the political horizon within walking out of it would be interesting to see. 241 00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:27,270 And the book is going into the transition from the Ottoman Empire to the British mandate. 242 00:28:27,270 --> 00:28:34,260 And for me, I think that that's it's a critical moment for Safadi to understand what Safadi ness and what's this Safadi intellectual 243 00:28:34,260 --> 00:28:43,890 happened to them from an Ottoman then imperial and subjects that the going back to air to air under British, 244 00:28:43,890 --> 00:28:49,420 but very into the national concept of ethnic some from an Ottoman man. 245 00:28:49,420 --> 00:29:00,340 And of course, the. Transition is between the logic of multiple loyalties to the logic that the British bring, is the logical partition contested? 246 00:29:00,340 --> 00:29:05,550 Yes. So let us press this point for a second, 247 00:29:05,550 --> 00:29:12,660 because I think it's a it's critical to understand the potentiality of the moment in any sense and how it is lost. 248 00:29:12,660 --> 00:29:20,910 You know, we now non-binding binary became a catchword for, you know, for enlightened gender understanding. 249 00:29:20,910 --> 00:29:24,010 But this is an interesting take on modernity. 250 00:29:24,010 --> 00:29:32,910 The turn of the 20th century were non binary identity, more widely understood, not just not necessarily on terms of gender, 251 00:29:32,910 --> 00:29:41,910 but in terms of ethnicities and culture and then language and also nationality. 252 00:29:41,910 --> 00:29:46,110 Is presented as the solution in a sense within. 253 00:29:46,110 --> 00:29:51,840 So the question would immediately be interesting to would be immediately interesting to ask. 254 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,490 First is how do they relate to emerging Arab nationalism? 255 00:29:56,490 --> 00:30:02,720 Do they see themselves as potentially part of an Arab nationalist movement? Again, it depends. 256 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:09,410 It depends in which moment we get we'll be going to them and to which one out of there. 257 00:30:09,410 --> 00:30:13,620 I think most of them see it. Some of them are really part of it. 258 00:30:13,620 --> 00:30:18,270 Stumbly. I definitely even more than Zionism and the Hebrew nationalism. 259 00:30:18,270 --> 00:30:22,380 She was part of Arab now that she saw itself as part of it. 260 00:30:22,380 --> 00:30:27,810 And the reference was what we're going to do with the European influence on our culture. 261 00:30:27,810 --> 00:30:34,290 Our culture is the Arab culture or the Ottoman culture. But there is European influence, the French coming in culture. 262 00:30:34,290 --> 00:30:38,130 What we gonna do? How we present our culture. And that's for her. 263 00:30:38,130 --> 00:30:41,430 It was their entrance for feminism as well. 264 00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:45,630 She's a she's an Arab. Somebody is one of the first activists. 265 00:30:45,630 --> 00:30:53,250 So it's so of course, for them, it's it's it's it's it's part of the discussion with Arab nationalism that, again, in that moment for them, 266 00:30:53,250 --> 00:31:05,970 it's their cross, her cultural politically engaged in the question of of native Zahra or of homeland in a way that Ottoman, 267 00:31:05,970 --> 00:31:12,300 you know, Ottoman subject to. This is starting. Is that closer than the European Jews are coming from outside? 268 00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:19,470 So what they want to do is to convince the European Jews that coming from outside not to be settlers and acts as colonialists, 269 00:31:19,470 --> 00:31:25,800 coming to lots of them to integrate this Ottomans, to be part of this kind of world. 270 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:32,870 So this is really the crux of the off of the historical moment. 271 00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:37,850 You have an empire in the shape of this multiple identities, multiple modernities, 272 00:31:37,850 --> 00:31:45,050 almost a reformed Ottoman Empire being replaced by the British Empire. 273 00:31:45,050 --> 00:31:52,060 And you have the partition minded, as you describe. You have the British. 274 00:31:52,060 --> 00:32:00,750 Bringing with design his project to Palestine, this notion that Jew and Arab are mutually oppositional. 275 00:32:00,750 --> 00:32:07,480 And you have a reality of Palestinian Jews. 276 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,390 We'll see. The exact opposite is the horizon. 277 00:32:10,390 --> 00:32:19,240 So the question is, how do they react and how do they really relate to the Zionist movement in Palestine? 278 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:26,800 I know. I know having read the book, I know that they've had their innocence endlessly trying to turn the there that got about. 279 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:32,740 Listen to us. We understand something that you don't how it is always it. 280 00:32:32,740 --> 00:32:40,140 Was that it? Politically, I think it's it's it's a very interesting question and very important question. 281 00:32:40,140 --> 00:32:44,360 And I think, again, in the end of the Ottoman Empire, they have. 282 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:53,020 There is a fierce debate between them and they're their second aliya establishment of the time. 283 00:32:53,020 --> 00:33:00,450 In a way, I doubt that in the end of the Ottoman Empire, that took him from a position of majority peoples. 284 00:33:00,450 --> 00:33:07,010 Without that, the subject of the Ottoman Empire then not and that the one that hosteen the new immigrants are coming, 285 00:33:07,010 --> 00:33:14,340 but most of them very young, very close. They need a lot of support and their support of the delectables come form a very established family. 286 00:33:14,340 --> 00:33:18,910 So. And they ended and they offer a different kind of nationality, 287 00:33:18,910 --> 00:33:27,280 native nationality in their Jewish nationality that is connected to the to the places and so on, so forth. 288 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,510 I think that that the crucial moment for understanding what happened then. 289 00:33:31,510 --> 00:33:37,840 And I think to understand what happened with Mr. Theme in Islam today is that transition from Ottoman Empire. 290 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:44,050 And to the mandatory. I think that the declaration and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, 291 00:33:44,050 --> 00:33:52,160 so that all the Safadi ness that is connected to the bigger Ottoman sphere, Jewish and Jewish, is collapsing. 292 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:57,270 And it's redacting their identity to a different kind of way. 293 00:33:57,270 --> 00:34:04,990 And the transition from that then used to be their representatives of the Jewish community in Palestine into their 294 00:34:04,990 --> 00:34:14,290 imperial rule as a humble she and other institutions where there and they're being replaced by the Zionist defended. 295 00:34:14,290 --> 00:34:22,480 Most of them, they don't know that. That's Madeleine beginning Bateman and the people in London and then that the institution in Palestine 296 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:31,330 themselves have been established and they been marginalised and been assigned in that sense. 297 00:34:31,330 --> 00:34:39,730 And they've become from being natives. They become people that we need to integrate that that other discussions change. 298 00:34:39,730 --> 00:34:48,430 But I think that the most important moment, again, the transition is that they first of all, there are some of them, 299 00:34:48,430 --> 00:35:00,130 most of them were very critical, critical of not taking a opposing gave out completely, but critical about the Butler declaration. 300 00:35:00,130 --> 00:35:03,700 They didn't think about that. The natives of the land. 301 00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:13,880 Then the Jews ended and Arabs. And second day they understood their mistake of this kind of proposal. 302 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:22,370 It doesn't look at there that they're there, that the local Arab and going to the British and the alliance with the British mandate. 303 00:35:22,370 --> 00:35:31,060 And in that moment there, the logic of multiple. They want the try to continue the logic of multiple realities, but it's becoming really hard. 304 00:35:31,060 --> 00:35:38,290 First of all, the Ashkenazi Jews look at demonstrators or people that you can't really trust because they're very close to the Arabs. 305 00:35:38,290 --> 00:35:49,240 So you are against us. So with us and I you given the voice of the Arabs, all you are part of us is the coalition of building a Jewish home. 306 00:35:49,240 --> 00:36:02,650 The Palestinians did something where their friends are going to get in to school or colleagues or in commerce and Pratten ships in the day. 307 00:36:02,650 --> 00:36:12,190 They will expecting them to be critical about Zionism like them and back declaration to declare the Dow and then Dow natives like them. 308 00:36:12,190 --> 00:36:16,630 And they are against this European power that come in from outside and controlled us. 309 00:36:16,630 --> 00:36:24,820 And they even trying to appeal to them in 1920 21 with probably a declaration that we understand you. 310 00:36:24,820 --> 00:36:28,150 There is so the you know, the making of the land. 311 00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:35,390 You are part of us come to us. You want us to be together. It's great to walk together against these, you know, outsiders. 312 00:36:35,390 --> 00:36:43,520 The settlers come in and they tried to separate the Palestinian leaderships, trying to say, we always been we are not anti Jews. 313 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,670 We are always living together with our local Jews, with our society, with the native Jews, 314 00:36:47,670 --> 00:36:51,460 that we are against this, you know, settler movement that come from outside. 315 00:36:51,460 --> 00:36:54,820 Zionism, not Judaism, as we know it. 316 00:36:54,820 --> 00:37:03,010 And so I think it's it's a critical moment in that sense to understand and and that in that the question of necessity. 317 00:37:03,010 --> 00:37:07,630 It's another interesting moment. People that walk in on this city and. 318 00:37:07,630 --> 00:37:12,220 It's kind of Zimm population usually going back to 1948, 2050. 319 00:37:12,220 --> 00:37:20,650 I think it's interesting to see what happened in that moment when their SAFADI identity is becoming part of an ethnic relation of Ashkenazi. 320 00:37:20,650 --> 00:37:27,730 It's reductive from the Ottoman context that was larger to non Ashkenazi identity. 321 00:37:27,730 --> 00:37:35,040 And there and there are political. It's the beginning of we conceived the political safadi. 322 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:45,190 You know, a movements to try to claim for representatives inside or to try to get more voices or more places and more jobs. 323 00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:54,460 So you can see it from the early 1920s, 30s, the same arguments that we want to be part of, the establishment of the establishment reject us. 324 00:37:54,460 --> 00:37:59,580 And that's a moment of reductive into an ethnic identity. 325 00:37:59,580 --> 00:38:04,630 And so I have to digressed here from the list of questions I have in my mind. And just ask you this outright. 326 00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:06,460 Did they understand at the time? 327 00:38:06,460 --> 00:38:15,700 This is I mean, I guess that barely the first two decades of the 20th century did they understand at the time that they are now being relegated, 328 00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:25,040 in a sense, to the dustbin of Jewish history because of the changing of this Germany in the Jewish one? 329 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:32,360 So some of the some of them and very interestingly, are getting they are getting in very quickly. 330 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:37,760 So one of them is kind been kicking a figure and discussing this book and other discussant, other places. 331 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:47,810 Fascinating intellectual body to various find the intellectual and from the early 1920s publish really critical 332 00:38:47,810 --> 00:38:54,120 articles against not only then what happened with Balfour Declaration and then what happened with disadvantages. 333 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,440 We understand what happened there, that the Ottoman. 334 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:06,300 What will happen in its transition from Ottoman to British rule and what it means to our identity of the of the area as it is again, 335 00:39:06,300 --> 00:39:15,990 is a native Ottoman that continue. So what will happen to our space of place in the play, in what we call Palestine? 336 00:39:15,990 --> 00:39:21,320 India, when we are not connected to Arabic and we are not connected to the Ottoman, 337 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:28,760 their connexion and to disavowed the heritage that's coming out at a long time back. 338 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,600 And he, you know, in a way is is forming. 339 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:39,050 And this is critical. It is critical also what's happened in modern Turkey, trying to to you know, 340 00:39:39,050 --> 00:39:45,110 to negate in that time that the Islamic part of it and then changing the script and 341 00:39:45,110 --> 00:39:49,280 doing the same things that he see that happens in Palestine with the Jewish settler. 342 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:57,560 So is his view is really interesting. You see assumption we have very interesting views in that time and that they understand it. 343 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:04,580 And I think that one of the one of the things that we need to understand, or I learnt a lot from watching this group, 344 00:40:04,580 --> 00:40:07,190 is that usually we're talking about Safadi or, you know, 345 00:40:07,190 --> 00:40:17,510 imagination in Jewish a Jewish studies that so far they are more lock-Up came to modernity late and late. 346 00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:24,930 They were very influenced or maybe French and the Anscombe and changed them, or they're always reactive to things. 347 00:40:24,930 --> 00:40:28,390 And I think what they learnt here in this is, like we said, 348 00:40:28,390 --> 00:40:33,400 this despite all of the Safadi intellectuals that I was working on were very global as well. 349 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,790 A very global, very imperial subjects. That is true. 350 00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:44,600 The Imperiale and Logic's. And they knew how to walk with difficult I'm schlemiel that was there in Spain for. 351 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:50,750 And there he played a different kind of imperial game. And he was part of the Ottoman and played different kind of imperial. 352 00:40:50,750 --> 00:40:54,470 So he wasn't a transnational subject. McCamey a local. 353 00:40:54,470 --> 00:40:57,800 There were have connexions to local locality in local places. 354 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:04,540 But there had movements and transnational movements and there was other kind of modernity in that sense. 355 00:41:04,540 --> 00:41:14,960 I think it's very important to put it there. And this generation understood that their position is becoming reductive into a national ethnic question, 356 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,950 that they saw themselves much bigger than that. 357 00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:30,200 So this is maybe the right Segway to move to what you already hinted at and I think is probably one of the biggest the themes of your work, 358 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:38,300 but also of discussion, specifically in the context of our seminar, the issue of multilingualism, or Polly Gluck teased him. 359 00:41:38,300 --> 00:41:42,440 All of your protagonist in this book are polyglots. 360 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:52,790 All of them are not just bilingual. They live in different spheres of languages, from German to Arabic to Hebrew to to Turkish and Judeo, 361 00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:59,100 Spanish and whatever and whatever else was in the mixture. 362 00:41:59,100 --> 00:42:12,140 And they encounter exactly a global phenomena of unilingual ism and a national motivation for erasure of these other languages. 363 00:42:12,140 --> 00:42:19,490 So can you just explain to us how they understood the role of this multilingualism in their in their being in the world, 364 00:42:19,490 --> 00:42:24,770 in this, you know, not necessarily empirical mindset, but as a global mindset? 365 00:42:24,770 --> 00:42:32,920 And what is the option they offer us in term? 366 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:41,960 You know, if we, you know, try to learn a lesson from this in terms of creating not just a shared society, but a multilingual society? 367 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:48,920 Yeah, I think it's it's a it's a very important question. I think in in in my research today, 368 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:54,890 I'm trying to trying to delve into this kind of off of option that they offer 369 00:42:54,890 --> 00:42:59,480 that I think mainly in their translation and less debt deal with it in the book. 370 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,560 But then the translation project. So it's a fascinating project. 371 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:12,830 But I think that I agree, you know, that of 9th century was the time of a of expulsions of that it was a possibility of learning 372 00:43:12,830 --> 00:43:20,120 languages and endow there that they were raised in the time that they can learn new languages. 373 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:24,500 Maybe people follow them and learn French, German. 374 00:43:24,500 --> 00:43:28,270 And stagnation matters, and they had the languages that they brought with them. 375 00:43:28,270 --> 00:43:37,330 And expand the languages of Hebrew and Arabic. That had revived in the time, modernised in the time in the Ottoman, Turkish in Ladino. 376 00:43:37,330 --> 00:43:41,400 And some of them even knew most of them with new Yiddish. 377 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:47,350 Yeah. The Jewish and Ashkenazi languages. 378 00:43:47,350 --> 00:43:56,760 And and some of them were very fascinating philology. So they were in a way, they were in the creators of of a standardisation of languages. 379 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:01,300 But they are very influential, multiple languages. I would say. 380 00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:10,270 And now I'm talking from my perspective, my research today, I'm really interested in if this is the moment that of an invention. 381 00:44:10,270 --> 00:44:14,920 What is it? What is their mother tongue? What is monolingualism? 382 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,050 Because before that, I think for them, 383 00:44:17,050 --> 00:44:27,070 the differentiation between Arabic in Hebrew is separate languages that the boundary between Arabic stops and when he starts or vice versa. 384 00:44:27,070 --> 00:44:33,950 It was not so clear, as we understand it today. And for a pause, UDR because was part of it. 385 00:44:33,950 --> 00:44:36,430 Of course, Arabic in Hebrew script. 386 00:44:36,430 --> 00:44:44,180 But not only that, you can see the inferences between how we can keep the movement between Hebrew in Arabic and in that time, 387 00:44:44,180 --> 00:44:53,020 and of course, underoos Wednesday. And of course, Ottoman boards coming in and league in Ladino when talking about Latinos can be, of course, Spanish. 388 00:44:53,020 --> 00:45:04,040 There is intuitive Ottoman Arabic. So for them, language is not as we see it, as it is a monolingual invention, something that is closed that we have. 389 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,770 We we we can it we can go out of it. Of course we can bring something from outside. 390 00:45:08,770 --> 00:45:10,750 Something is fine to eat something. 391 00:45:10,750 --> 00:45:20,260 So I think this is this kind of understanding helps them to understand better what's what sovereignty can be a Shetland lacking language. 392 00:45:20,260 --> 00:45:24,250 You don't have the borders can be more flexible, flexible. 393 00:45:24,250 --> 00:45:31,450 You can share borders. You can share traditions. They've gone back to traditions and that doesn't have origin. 394 00:45:31,450 --> 00:45:37,820 Even the biblical stories that these middle class chants translate is the biblical is becoming the, 395 00:45:37,820 --> 00:45:44,200 you know, the original who is the owner of the Texan, who is the owner of the original tradition. 396 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:50,740 He's going to the Palestinian oral history of the biblical text and translate it to a biblical Hebrew, 397 00:45:50,740 --> 00:45:59,430 connect it with lots of Arabic words into it in a in a way and a political move to dismantle this kind of separations. 398 00:45:59,430 --> 00:46:05,800 Or they're going to elsley lower level two to 1000, 1008 stories that, you know. 399 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,990 What's the origins of this kind of tradition? 400 00:46:07,990 --> 00:46:15,490 And then translated, it's coming for, you know, Sanskrit, Persian to our big two to two Hebrew word to multiple other languages. 401 00:46:15,490 --> 00:46:19,340 It's something that happened. Oh, he loved them. That they're going to these kind of traditions. 402 00:46:19,340 --> 00:46:24,610 It doesn't have an origin or two translation that does. 403 00:46:24,610 --> 00:46:30,390 Mixed into it, you know, again, I think in a way to to resist this kind of separation of the languages, 404 00:46:30,390 --> 00:46:42,630 its traditions, and that happened in that time. So just as they challenge money or unilingual isn't they also challenge the whole, 405 00:46:42,630 --> 00:46:49,790 they say, the union modernity or the unified European narrative of modernity. 406 00:46:49,790 --> 00:46:59,000 It took Europeans corners about another century to realise that modernity is maybe multiple different ways of understanding, whether it is. 407 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:07,040 But already, again, at the turn of the 20th century, your protagonist all kind of trying to reassert the sense of this world, 408 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:12,350 duplicity of ways of being what they are as modern as any other player in the field. 409 00:47:12,350 --> 00:47:20,780 But they understand the possibilities differently. And this has to do again with the fact that, again, in the context of our seminar, at least, 410 00:47:20,780 --> 00:47:32,570 it's the first time that we are considering a narrative of Jewish culture, of, uh, of Jewish history, of Jewish identity or Jewish nationalism. 411 00:47:32,570 --> 00:47:41,330 That does not nourish necessarily only on European sources, although obviously it corresponds with them and with European notions of modernity. 412 00:47:41,330 --> 00:47:44,150 So, for example, as you just noted, it doesn't have to be an integration. 413 00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:51,440 Is modernity in the sense that either you in the state or you are with the state, you can be both in and out and in different states at the same time. 414 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,820 Can you say something a little bit about the way they understood modernity? 415 00:47:55,820 --> 00:48:01,670 Yeah, I think it's it's a it's a very important point. And I was fascinated with this scandal. 416 00:48:01,670 --> 00:48:08,060 I tried to you know, again, it's most of the things came out of the sources themselves. 417 00:48:08,060 --> 00:48:16,650 And it was fascinating with with their with their modernity projects that Europe is not in the century. 418 00:48:16,650 --> 00:48:24,530 Again, if you going back to Jewish history, Augustine Mosque, most of them research on to find in modernity or modernity, 419 00:48:24,530 --> 00:48:30,800 not of their land or within the deal Misaka Jews connected from the European. 420 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:36,710 There is instruments from European phenomena that starts in Europe and then come to the other Lanard, 421 00:48:36,710 --> 00:48:45,170 other parts of Jewish culture in and outside of Europe through this kind of mechanisms. 422 00:48:45,170 --> 00:48:50,150 And here you can find different kind of modalities that Europe is not in the centre. 423 00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:58,430 And in a way, it's even if it's it's in the different model of what we used to see as Jewish modernity. 424 00:48:58,430 --> 00:49:07,040 One of them, one of the fascinating models that I am recounting in the book is that in one not the Baghdadi diaspora, 425 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:14,600 the creation of the Baghdadi diaspora in the 19th century in that Bombay, India. 426 00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:21,870 And what today, China, a lot of merchants, that grain's from the 9th and middle of the 9th century onwards. 427 00:49:21,870 --> 00:49:28,460 You know, Tom, from Baghdad and Iraq of today to this kind of centres and doing a modernisation 428 00:49:28,460 --> 00:49:32,690 project that they have the cultural aspect to it because their journalism and 429 00:49:32,690 --> 00:49:37,760 their language and they have their and their set of questions of what's to be a 430 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,710 modern and even elastic questions and and so on and so forth that is going back, 431 00:49:42,710 --> 00:49:47,000 going and physically and symbolically eastwards. Yeah. 432 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:52,220 And going back to the Arabic text, because they're all there in the beginning, 433 00:49:52,220 --> 00:49:57,980 the first second generation of this kind of companies is the Sun Family Companion and Condola and others. 434 00:49:57,980 --> 00:50:01,910 They all their writings was they are all the bureaucracy wasn't, you know. 435 00:50:01,910 --> 00:50:05,560 So they even talked to people as a modern language. 436 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:15,290 And they they had their translation project of translating modern novels into judo and began publishing house that was dissimulating. 437 00:50:15,290 --> 00:50:19,700 And they and they sponsored a lot of modernisation of schools in Iraq and other places. 438 00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:29,370 So this is interesting modernisation project that the Jews are going going physically eastward and going back to did Arabic, not to European country. 439 00:50:29,370 --> 00:50:36,860 And it's a modern modernisation. Yes. I agree with you that it's never only that he's going to show up, Delo said. 440 00:50:36,860 --> 00:50:41,960 It's one of the things they needed this journey and he was waiting in Hong Kong. 441 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,370 He was very connected to the British, of course, and he was a British subject. 442 00:50:46,370 --> 00:50:57,470 He was had they rehearsed? He had them. And, you know, and he was a trader in Hong Kong and he walked in different kind of imperial logic. 443 00:50:57,470 --> 00:51:03,300 But he had the logic as well of modernisation going east and going back to. 444 00:51:03,300 --> 00:51:09,500 No, I. I don't realise how fast time runs with so much. 445 00:51:09,500 --> 00:51:16,520 Interesting topic to discuss. I have just one more question and then I want to open this for questions from the audience. 446 00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:24,110 We already have a couple. But just to your people, please write down the questions and we'll. 447 00:51:24,110 --> 00:51:29,390 You have to ask your violin. I'll read this and then you will answer. 448 00:51:29,390 --> 00:51:34,900 But of course, I want to to to maybe conclude this part of the seminar you. 449 00:51:34,900 --> 00:51:42,370 Is to press the fast forward and ask what does this history tell us about the present? 450 00:51:42,370 --> 00:51:50,940 So first of all, let me state historically or still by way of narrating his story, what happened to this? 451 00:51:50,940 --> 00:51:56,190 Array of viewpoints, this different takes on Jewish identity and history. 452 00:51:56,190 --> 00:52:00,720 What happened to them in Israel? Are there any hair heirs today? 453 00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:12,060 Is there anyone else, anyone contemporary who wants to fight intellectual you would identify as maybe carrying on this tradition or this voice? 454 00:52:12,060 --> 00:52:18,400 Did they fail? Did they fall victim to Zionist nationalism? And what then? 455 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:29,870 You know, looking forward, what models may they offer for a rethinking of the Israeli contemporary situation? 456 00:52:29,870 --> 00:52:35,280 Yeah, it's it's a question that I'm merely dealing with it a lot and then I'm dealing with it in there. 457 00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,810 The epilogue with them, including gave chapter. 458 00:52:39,810 --> 00:52:48,740 And now I was afraid to be in to get into its trap of the missed opportunity paradigm, meaning there was there. 459 00:52:48,740 --> 00:52:54,500 Back then it was missed an opportunity diminished demise. 460 00:52:54,500 --> 00:52:58,580 It's not there that it's not relevant anymore. 461 00:52:58,580 --> 00:53:07,460 We can't really we can reflect on Atum the past. We can look at it as an object of the past, but doesn't have any. 462 00:53:07,460 --> 00:53:13,100 Doesn't have any connexion to what we have in the present or the future of Palestine. 463 00:53:13,100 --> 00:53:20,200 But I think that they are at me in first of all, you can see, of course, that the tragic of what we saw, 464 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:29,780 that partition languages with Arabic in the petitions of Jewish and Arab as even as identity of Jews is something that we can see in Israel today. 465 00:53:29,780 --> 00:53:37,700 And most of them. Exactly. Jews today want consider settlers, Arabs, even though their parents and grandparents were Arabs. 466 00:53:37,700 --> 00:53:43,390 And part of the society, most of them won't be able to speak out to without me. 467 00:53:43,390 --> 00:53:52,010 There was a great survey that they only mandoline for sedition have did the body had knowledge of Israelis, Jewish, Israelis of Arabic. 468 00:53:52,010 --> 00:53:56,900 And it said that even Ashkenazi in my generation, no Ashkenazi, some of them because of intelligence, 469 00:53:56,900 --> 00:54:00,720 know a little bit more Arabic then third generation of Arab Jews. 470 00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:08,590 So they did that then they're the negation of Arabic is is very strong and is the negation of identities. 471 00:54:08,590 --> 00:54:17,780 At the same time, you can see traces of these kind of possibilities coming along the way all the time that traces there. 472 00:54:17,780 --> 00:54:22,790 So in a way, there is continuities of of of logics. 473 00:54:22,790 --> 00:54:29,090 If it doing the political side of it seised scholars and thinkers that are going 474 00:54:29,090 --> 00:54:35,690 back to these kind of identities and and logic and models today in Israel. 475 00:54:35,690 --> 00:54:42,200 But you can see you can very strongly music and the peut and popular music in Israel. 476 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:46,680 You have the third generation of Arab Jews going back to Yemen, music, Emmonak music. 477 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:57,230 So I'll be clemmy under our and Iraqi music like the Tarzan Moroccan music like in that they are kayum and yet Z4 cascaded down. 478 00:54:57,230 --> 00:55:03,110 And you have done the loosing Andalusian musical traditions and orchestra. 479 00:55:03,110 --> 00:55:08,380 So you can see it in the music that there is the places that you can still see the continuation. 480 00:55:08,380 --> 00:55:14,880 And even if you're going to Jerusalem to a synagogue necessarily, Zinner will be Jerusalem today where I used to live in Oslo, 481 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:20,390 you will still hear the Arabic, you know, the popular Arabic Egyptian music into the prayer. 482 00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:26,410 And it's still there, the Arabic, even though that may be most of the people to pray there. 483 00:55:26,410 --> 00:55:33,950 You know, Bibi supporters or cracklings supporters of Sensabaugh, they were, but they're still Arabic is very present there. 484 00:55:33,950 --> 00:55:38,870 And you still see the Arab Jewish tradition very present in the events. 485 00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:52,320 So this kind of continuation and Trace's is really interesting to go in and rethink about them in in light of this long history. 486 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:58,260 Well, I you know, I don't think anyone can doubt this, but I would still, just as a note, not as evident as a question, 487 00:55:58,260 --> 00:56:08,790 I would still raise the issue of is this how would I call it the popularisation or follicle or rosacea? 488 00:56:08,790 --> 00:56:19,350 And also from a dude, in effect, it's a politicisation. So it's a it's you know, it's a neutering of it's a political potential, which is a. 489 00:56:19,350 --> 00:56:25,020 Yeah. I think the less optimistic view of the situation. 490 00:56:25,020 --> 00:56:28,710 Now, again, please write down your questions. We have a couple of questions. 491 00:56:28,710 --> 00:56:33,810 And I just want the one is one me. Mattel was asking you why. 492 00:56:33,810 --> 00:56:39,750 First of all, congrats on the Brandos chair. Is there an English translation of the book in the works? 493 00:56:39,750 --> 00:56:45,150 Yeah, yeah. It's first of all, thank you for the congratulations. 494 00:56:45,150 --> 00:56:49,690 And yes, yes, that's the beginning of this process. 495 00:56:49,690 --> 00:56:53,650 Sidelights. Wonderful. 496 00:56:53,650 --> 00:57:02,830 Mark, is this asking regarding your Figlio with Agonistic or Safa, the Arab Jewish figures? 497 00:57:02,830 --> 00:57:15,510 Were they discussing. I'm sorry. Were they ever entered into a dialogue with Martin Buber related with his activities in breach along and or the Ehud. 498 00:57:15,510 --> 00:57:23,290 Yeah. This is really interesting subject, and I wondered what about it already in the 40s and what a great article about it in 499 00:57:23,290 --> 00:57:28,120 these to be beer and newspaper called Tetum is like they wondered what about it, 500 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:33,310 interestingly, is your are Evelyn, the father of the current president of Israel that was in a way, 501 00:57:33,310 --> 00:57:41,860 raised his Ashkenazi native both ways, that he was married to you, who does not know his first wife. 502 00:57:41,860 --> 00:57:47,230 And he was, you know, a student of Tokyo. One of my goodness. 503 00:57:47,230 --> 00:57:51,580 Then he tried to claim the dead. The dead. 504 00:57:51,580 --> 00:57:56,970 There is a differentiation between the people who are coming from outside the European that come from outside. 505 00:57:56,970 --> 00:58:09,690 I know I was voguing notion of what's what's living together and the natives and a Jewish perspective that have a different kind of offer of affair, 506 00:58:09,690 --> 00:58:13,560 of their vision, of living together. That is not the same. Exactly. 507 00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:20,770 And he tried to do the differentiation. But I would say that, of course, a hood in particular, it was in touch with and kept my business. 508 00:58:20,770 --> 00:58:24,570 I was in touch with its founding director and some of them were part of it. 509 00:58:24,570 --> 00:58:29,530 Did I call it Charlie in the beginning? And the left and the whole de Tocqueville that came to some of the meetings. 510 00:58:29,530 --> 00:58:32,650 So there was, of course, the connexion between the two. 511 00:58:32,650 --> 00:58:39,040 I think it will be interesting to see what's the differential between a native perspective of this called coexistence 512 00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:47,760 or shared life and and and and the model that come formally to be from outside from the European perspective? 513 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,550 No way. But that's it. Interesting game. 514 00:58:51,550 --> 00:59:00,730 And, you know, we don't have more questions on the question and answer and just very well for allowing people the more just I have one more question, 515 00:59:00,730 --> 00:59:07,360 which is actually outside of the of the premise of the book, but it would be interesting to note. 516 00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:18,680 Can you say something about contemporary Arab appropriation or discussion with these writers we listen to there, 517 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:25,480 Arab writers, or do you notify the writers? Yeah, I want to say something about how they been used. 518 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:29,770 Now, there is a reason we tend to discount thinkers, but it's interesting. 519 00:59:29,770 --> 00:59:32,800 In the Zionist sphere. 520 00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:40,510 So there is now there was a very important book by taking it to a level that they said that the detective was we were also Zionist. 521 00:59:40,510 --> 00:59:45,880 So he went to this group to show that he and the safadi was the first down. 522 00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:50,080 And so he took it to a different kind of their authority. 523 00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:55,060 And there is others that going back there will say here we can see the first day of revivals of Hebrew. 524 00:59:55,060 --> 00:59:59,150 We have that. We don't talk about that. So let's do the same framework of zombies. 525 00:59:59,150 --> 01:00:03,610 You start to see that we had. But let's find missed voices and put them together. 526 01:00:03,610 --> 01:00:07,750 But we don't change how we organise the setting itself. 527 01:00:07,750 --> 01:00:15,960 And there is a very interesting and we tend to this thinkers inside an Arab intellectual and world 528 01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:21,880 and into Mali wrote beautifully about it's Chami and his work as part of Palestinian history. 529 01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:31,370 I know that historians are more committed. Steinert historians Arby Stones are walking with these candles texts on the contribution from that house. 530 01:00:31,370 --> 01:00:35,890 Yalcin their stumbly and was written in this kind of framework. 531 01:00:35,890 --> 01:00:45,220 So there is we tend to them as part of revivalism, all part of Palestinian history and as natives of the land. 532 01:00:45,220 --> 01:00:51,460 So this is another interesting. And of course, there is the Misaka aspect of trying to. 533 01:00:51,460 --> 01:00:57,550 And we tend to early voices of bizarre resistance of Ms. 534 01:00:57,550 --> 01:01:03,910 Uschi. Voice on culture. And this I think all of them have. 535 01:01:03,910 --> 01:01:12,190 It's interesting. You know, it's it's it's important. But all of them have the danger of mechanistic a way to look at them. 536 01:01:12,190 --> 01:01:16,630 Because I think most of the categories that's what I meant in the beginning of my 537 01:01:16,630 --> 01:01:24,820 talk when I spoke about the partition environment in academically and politically, 538 01:01:24,820 --> 01:01:33,640 that it's always going it can be. We do understand the categories that we used today doesn't really apply to the categories that they use, 539 01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:40,390 even though that, you know, Zionist or not Zionist, secular or religious or Eastern and Western and all, just kind of. 540 01:01:40,390 --> 01:01:48,670 I'll be Kaju in all these kind of categories that are essential in our discussion today is not really applying fully to them. 541 01:01:48,670 --> 01:01:54,730 So the last question will take is actually from our core convenor, Peter Bergen. 542 01:01:54,730 --> 01:02:03,750 Peter, would you allow me to show you so you could ask the question yourself? All right. 543 01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:07,740 So I'm need now. So you've all thanks and sorry for showing up late. Thank you. 544 01:02:07,740 --> 01:02:15,120 You can blame Microsoft and technology, which seems to be following me around like like the Grim Reaper at the moment. 545 01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:21,900 Anyway, you mentioned very quickly that the Hapsburg Empire and I was thinking through the hot part of your talk that I 546 01:02:21,900 --> 01:02:28,260 heard that there is certainly a parallel between this cop Seeberg and Ottoman concepts of multiple realities. 547 01:02:28,260 --> 01:02:35,700 And they certainly are coming from different opposite sides, say, of this, but going together and meeting in the middle somewhere. 548 01:02:35,700 --> 01:02:37,890 And I thought maybe you could just say a little bit more about this, 549 01:02:37,890 --> 01:02:43,360 because it struck me as something very, very interesting that never occurred to me before. 550 01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:48,670 Yeah, that's really, really interesting point, and I think those are interesting walk now on the metre Shamsky. 551 01:02:48,670 --> 01:02:53,480 You know, and you've just did them. Great book about them then. 552 01:02:53,480 --> 01:03:01,330 And you have to read from them. He'll be Benyamin and others that day trying to understand that I was born again. 553 01:03:01,330 --> 01:03:11,020 You know, multilingual multinational empire as as a as a model for Jews that came to Palestine being Jews, 554 01:03:11,020 --> 01:03:20,810 that had a different kind of a fair, you know, political model created in Goulburn and their Hugel Balga man. 555 01:03:20,810 --> 01:03:25,230 And Benyamin and others. And they traced back into that. 556 01:03:25,230 --> 01:03:33,550 Absolutely. And a connexion. I think it's it'll be interesting to see how some of them understood that the Ottoman Empire is the same logic. 557 01:03:33,550 --> 01:03:38,050 I think. You mean if you go in. I remember was the one that understood it better. 558 01:03:38,050 --> 01:03:42,940 And he even wanted to become a safadi is in the end of the Ottoman Empire. 559 01:03:42,940 --> 01:03:49,130 It was like in Safadi. Can you stay crazy? You understood that the right part of being a native. 560 01:03:49,130 --> 01:03:54,020 It's that conversion will change. And that is so public. 561 01:03:54,020 --> 01:04:01,540 Apollos, I'm not sure that the other side. Similarly, I think that we are as historians would be really, really interesting to compare the two. 562 01:04:01,540 --> 01:04:04,750 And to put it in conversation, these models. 563 01:04:04,750 --> 01:04:12,430 And in a way, you know, it was a transition from empire to nation state is something that we need to put in question. 564 01:04:12,430 --> 01:04:17,200 How Nation state, a continuing empire logic. 565 01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:24,130 And vice versa. Now, in their empire setting, there is a national logic and I think. 566 01:04:24,130 --> 01:04:31,810 Absolutely. And the Ottoman tool, the less talk them in the is the Palestinian setting. 567 01:04:31,810 --> 01:04:35,140 And I think that very important, the discussion. 568 01:04:35,140 --> 01:04:39,760 And I was just going to say, kind of as an aside, I was looking frantically through my documents while you were talking. 569 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:45,850 But just this morning, I was actually cataloguing something from this archive I'm working on. 570 01:04:45,850 --> 01:04:49,870 And I think, you know, I was looking at the 19th Zionist Congress from 1935. 571 01:04:49,870 --> 01:04:58,510 That's the first time that somebody appeals for a separate SAFADI department or for even some of the funding to be even brought into the conversation. 572 01:04:58,510 --> 01:05:05,380 By the way, it was Paul Goodman, Martin's grandfather, Ya'acov. But and it's also interesting, I was noticed, too, that, in fact, you know, 573 01:05:05,380 --> 01:05:11,740 1935 takes place and was certain that we still at this point, we have a very, very strong Keibel cultural element to everything. 574 01:05:11,740 --> 01:05:14,560 But not all of the reports are still published in German. 575 01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:19,570 I mean, and I think it not just because it took place in Switzerland, but I think this is somehow the regu with the Zionists. 576 01:05:19,570 --> 01:05:22,960 They continued to kind of think in German. I find it. Absolutely, yeah. 577 01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:28,290 I was reading it this morning thinking this is absolutely crazy. Anyway, that's my final my final comment. 578 01:05:28,290 --> 01:05:33,900 A depressing one. Well, with what better way to end within it. 579 01:05:33,900 --> 01:05:38,560 A depressing note. Well, thank you well for this fascinating talk. 580 01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:44,560 The book, again, is in Hebrew. Has she really, Alan, on the loose, available for mugginess press. 581 01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:53,890 Also as an e-book, if you just want to log in and buy the book and or if you can't read Hebrew, wait for the English translation. 582 01:05:53,890 --> 01:05:57,400 Also, follow your Woz work wherever you can find it. 583 01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:01,270 I'm sure you'll find it very interesting. 584 01:06:01,270 --> 01:06:11,890 Next week's Israel Study Seminar is actually Peter's on lecture about how should I say, Jewish terrorism and that of the British mandate. 585 01:06:11,890 --> 01:06:15,580 Do come with us next the next week. 586 01:06:15,580 --> 01:06:19,930 And thank you all. Thank you. Good luck. Thank you very much. 587 01:06:19,930 --> 01:06:28,062 Thank you for having me. Thank you very much.