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Great. Good afternoon, everybody. I'm Peter Bergman, and welcome to this third.

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Well, in fact, really, in reality, the second seminar for the reconsidering Zionist early Jewish Nationalist Ideology Seminar,

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which we probably should have renamed the victory of Human Perseverance in the Face of Technological Adversity seminar.

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But anyway, here we are. It's really my pleasure today to introduce to our speaker my argued and Zuckermann,

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who is the postdoctoral fellow at the Department of Management, Politics and Philosophy at Copenhagen Business School.

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Meyer was the Jim Josef Postdoctoral Fellow at Education and Jewish Studies at Stanford University.

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Her research centres around questions related to modern and contemporary Jewish citizenship.

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The Civil Sphere and National Inter Exclusion Relations.

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She is co-editor of a book called New Perspectives on Jewish Cultural History Boundary's Experiences and Sensemaking

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that was published by Routledge and 20 19 year old from the University of Southern Denmark in the Middle Eastern.

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Studies on Amancio Theology and Anthropology from Tel Aviv University.

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Maya, over to you. Thank you very, very much for speaking to us today. Thank you so much.

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Thank you for spending the afternoon here. And so I would have loved to be in Oxford right now.

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I will stay here in Copenhagen. So it seems like almost surreal pleasure and honour to be grounded.

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Forty five minutes to actual practise. What I don't generally just have time to preach as I've been acting for some years now.

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I contend that early scientism should be studied and understood as a range of manifold ongoing processes rather than discrete events or entities.

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However, the thing about manifold processes is that it takes some time to unfold an outline them in front of an audience.

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Moreover, it's often an incomplete task as processes infinite in both time and space.

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So nevertheless, I'll use my time today to give you an extended example of how scientist emergence can be seen.

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It's a fragmented, ongoing,

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fluid process that was always negotiated through practises and meaning making to state my purpose as concisely as possible.

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I want in this lecture to show scientist emergence as a cultural process of meaning making.

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So let me now flesh out what I mean with these times.

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One by one, so that it becomes clear what added value this perspective can have for the study of early Jewish nationalism.

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And after this brief conceptual mapping, and I promise it will be brief.

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I will move on to the fun part of bringing us all back to the spring of eighteen ninety seven,

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where we'll travel with a group of Jews to Palestine in order to understand what virtual

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Palestine and Jewish national collectivity could mean for Western identified Jews.

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At the end of the century. So I want to briefly address three concepts and that are important to this lecture.

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I tie these concept to the general framework of cultural and pragmatic sociology.

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Following the lead, amongst others, of Yale Professor Jeffrey Alexander.

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So the three concepts, a process meaning making and cultural structure.

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And if you could go to next. Thank you.

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The emphasis on seeing scientist emergence as process is based on the conviction that we need to pay more attention to the

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ongoing unstable ways in which a movement a scientism became rather than seeing it as a defined entity that was already settled.

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So to, quote, shoot and to engage with the world by.

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Sorry, I quote, to engage with the world by seeing process as fundamental does not imply to deny the existence of state events, entity, other things.

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It does, however, draw attention to the ways in which any object can be unpacked to reveal the complex processes involved in the objects institution.

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End of quote.

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So thus, rather than seeing scientism as an idea or personal pamphlet, that is as an entity that moved around without being moved itself.

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Unmoved mover. If you want the process perspective attempts to trace the many activities and trends actions

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that continuously had to be in place for scientism to become a force that could create,

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coordinate and transform Jewish lives around the world.

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So the second concept is meaning making. So the canon of Jewish nationalist historiography outlines the set,

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central text and pantheon through which we are taught to understand Jewish nationalist emergence.

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So this Canham most famously assembled in Oslo, a hedge book, The Scientist Idea it displays house.

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How thinkers and politicians articulated and fought for different version of Jewish nationhood, hatchback and other historians.

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Then provide the context to show us how these ideas and strategies either failed or succeeded.

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And as they were played out, how. A very big gap still exist in which we see and learn through ethnographic descriptions how Jews came

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to make sense of science and what prevented the processes through which Zionism was seen as relevant,

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meaningful, pressel important are the opposite in ordinary Jewish lives.

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So what I'm asking is both a call for bottom up history, but sort also wish to see meaning and meaning,

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making as crucial historical players in how change and process come about when the final concept is cultural structure.

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I find this particularly important in the context of scientist historiography as the

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concept of culture here carries its own rather confused meaning and trajectory.

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So in a semiotic anthropological sense, culture is paraphrasing goods, webs of significance that people are suspended it in yet have spun themselves.

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So Jeffrey Alexander has restated the importance through which we should understand how

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cultural codes of significance and cultural negotiation dominate the social order.

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We need to see cultural structures as the normative meaning, making historically embedded yet future oriented navigation code.

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That are all in different ways and times informed by it and reacting to it.

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So Jewish historical culture studies have the last decade shown us how different national,

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social, racial and cultural code coach would need negotiated by Jewish citizens.

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However, these approaches have not been fully used or explored within the study of Jewish politics.

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I contend at least so in this field, we still seem to believe that culture and meaning making belonging in another disciplinary subdepartment.

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But nothing I hope to show you today could be further from the truth.

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The webs of significance that the early scientists and explorers were spun in and continue to spin should not be

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seen as political because they were central meanings through which these people read and acted in the world.

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An intern will read and interacted with so enough conceptual outlining for now.

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Let's jump into the thrust of the matter. For the rest of the lecture,

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I want to unfold an example of how we can understand early Jewish national emergence as a process that centres on meaning making and cultural coding.

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So let me bring you back to the renowned year of 1897. It's not dead almost.

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The first sign is Congress does not. Even the horizon for the twenty nine year old thing is Jewish physician Louis Hemen Klingel and a next light.

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He's living in Copenhagen. And here I'm fortunate I don't have a picture of him as a 29.

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Yo, you will see some in a moment, but here's the more standard pictures of him.

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So he's living in Copenhagen at the time where he was born, raised and educated.

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Louis Tankel is in many ways, in many ways, a product of his time.

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His father, Nathan Spangle, was a textile and silk most merchant who inherited the business from his father before him.

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During the second half of the 19th century,

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Nathan succeeded in developing his father's more humble business into a thriving textile enterprise that serves the Danish upper middle class.

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So when Stingley was born in 1868, Nathan's business was going well.

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The family that eventually would count three kids had moved into a butcher his apartment in the centre of Copenhagen.

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So in back in 1814, Denmark allowed Jews to enter guilds and gave them more rights as citizens,

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which was confirmed and expanded with the Constitution of 1849 and which, amongst other things, stressed freedom of religion.

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After Denmark lost the war to Germany in 1864, Nathan Franco continued to do business in Germany and visit the family in the region.

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But he also made sure that his sons received a good Danish education and understood the importance of dedicated national allegiance.

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And Single went on to study medicine at Copenhagen University. But he did us also volunteer to Danish Army.

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And he developed the National Ambulance Service to rural part of the country, the first in the country.

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So the single family was just like many other things, Jewish urban families.

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At the end of the 19th century,

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they were working hard at securing and reaffirming themselves as assertively Danish as ingroup members of the Danish society.

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However, as one of the few in the younger post 1860 fourth generation swankier,

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also insisting on educating, educating and engaging himself in Orthodox Judaism.

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As a physician, he helped articulate and reform the procedure of circumcision so that it aligned with the medical discourse at the time.

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And he took private classes with the chief rabbi, David Simonsen.

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Whenever he had a break from the hospital, so think was interested in discussing Talmudic questions,

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thinking about interpretation of rituals relating to historical Jewish events as bridges and signposts for the present day.

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While these theological question. Interested Finckel.

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And they did not push him to reorganise or challenge accepted the social values or social relations in the community.

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So prior to 1897, he could make perfect sense of his Jewishness within this, that this community norms and practises of his time.

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OK. So 80, 90, seven rolls around. Unthankful has just passed this final medical exam and is not planning to open his own clinic in Copenhagen.

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He's not yet married and is left feeling rather free to explore the world before settling down.

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An invitation arrives from London to travel to Palestine with the Maccabean pilgrimage, which ignites something in him.

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We have a document. We are so lucky to have a document. And that testifies as to how Franklin interprets this invitation because he communicates

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its content to Rabbi Simonsen as he tries to convince the rabbi to come along.

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So the letter, which was written March eight, 1897. And you can go to the next like AM.

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So I will quote in part of the letter that we see written in the right.

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And it's also part of the letter on the backside we have on the picture is Rabbi Simonson and his wife.

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And this is from his house. His apartment. OK, I will quote.

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Hi, Justine. Mr. Chief Rabbi, can I tend to use openings and decorum, my setting him so the children of Israel when onward and all their journeys.

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Don't you feel like doing just that on April six? A splendid opportunity offers itself.

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It go from London, Riyadh, Dover, Calais,

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Paris to Marseilles on April eight from here to Alexandria and tracks from there to Cairo and Ismailia and with the ship,

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which we again will encounter in Port Said each week.

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Yes, well, the colonies will be visited and then you'll go with Train to Jerusalem Hotel Jerusalem to stay here until Monday morning.

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From here, you will again hold from Jerusalem to Damascus, which will be between 30 to 40 miles.

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The trip will pass first bettles kilo shift.

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And you saw said mountable to the leg of Tiberius, where will arrest the last two days of Pista Sunday 25th.

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We will continue the ride to Damascus and from there to buy route from where the ship takes the group to smear and Maputo's and back to Mercy.

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So then Stangl quotes directly in English from the itinerary on your own.

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You don't have that here. So we quote in English. What I've read so far wasn't Danish with my translations being this kosher food

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will be provided throughout unbolt the steamer at the hotels and on camping,

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too, and in Palestine. And the Jewish cook of shuffle will accompany the party.

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And I think that continues. And we've added to this. And he goes back to English.

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Washing is done at the hotels, but not in Cannes. I would say that it all looks very tempting and this has probably not ended.

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The purpose of the tour is to arouse interest amongst the Jews for Palestine.

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And there's this hope that the tour will be basis for literary works. So end of quote,

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without wrapping up the suggested further single in the letter immediately moved on to mention

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the edit he had been doing on the recent proposal to reform the procedure of circumcision.

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And he asked the rabbi to confer more on this matter when we return home from the medical visit at the Royal Farm Clinic in Drayson,

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where he's currently at. He ended the letter noting that there wasn't much to say about placement.

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He writes, quote,

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The Jews were living an odd secluded life and there was not much life in the other residents except when they burn off their churches.

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End of quote. So as we just heard,

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Single framed the trip to Palestine with this biblical quote from Exodus and thus from the outset and cast Endeavour with

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purpose and meaning related to the theological ambiguous meaning of a Islam that is as a promised land and a group of people.

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The trip in this context speaks to some of the core values of Judaism,

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namely the idea of a nexus in which the chosen people and promised land come together to form a sacred unity.

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That it is disputable whether this next war should be carried out in the specific and

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mundane forms that the rest of the let us suggest is initially a subordinate point.

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So, in fact, would suggest in the letter that it was the many exciting stops and the comfortable

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amenities of the travel that would bring the Israel of the children of Israel onwards.

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The letter seemed to express an excitement of the synergy between these elements, which made it all look very tempting.

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Palestine. The grand tour and luxury amenities. Only at this point in the letter did the thinking mentioned a supposedly larger

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purpose behind the tool to evoke interest for Palestine amongst Jews and inspire.

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Literary works based on the journey so well, Stengel noted that these were the purposes.

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He did not act at excitement or expand further on these purposes.

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Instead, they appeared rather isolated from the rest of the described synergy and newness.

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So the purpose was mentioned there, but not part of a cycle. What got excited about going?

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And presumably also what not what he thought would get Rabbi Simonsen going.

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So more one spangle grounded the letter in mundane and immediate matters,

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namely a discussion surrounding the question of reforming or editing the legislation related to circumcision.

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And finally, there was the observation of the withdrawn Jewish life of Leysen.

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But fill that list. Thankful, unimpressed and somewhat disdainful about the local Jewish community.

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So why does this matter? How can this letter be seen as a fresh cue in the tracing of the cultural process of science meaningly?

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So first and foremost, let us offer us a quite unique and thick description of the situated circumstances in

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which the suggestion to travel on a Jewish tour to Palestine in 1897 inserted itself.

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The letter juxtaposed different issues that doughnut related and immediate concern are related to certain cultural coding of collective Jewish life.

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In early 1897. So sad and backwards to what's the physical presence of West Bengal was currently situated the City of Lights.

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When Single chose to convey to Simonsen what he chose to convey to Simonsen

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about the city was that the Jews were not asserting themselves in public life.

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He did not speculate.

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And the reason for why this withdrawal, but just noted that their choice of life seemed odd off not to be Jews living their life in the public sphere.

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Secondly, he mentioned the ongoing world of work about editing the circumcision recommendation.

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This was important work work for Franco as he apologised to Simonsen for the

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minute edits he had offered and his wish to continue to work further on it.

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For Finkel, who stood in the beginning of his medical career and who was extremely curious about the latest medical developments.

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He was also deeply invested in getting circumcision to be accepted and fit into modern medical discourse and government regulations.

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And there was no dichotomy, the hesitation mentioned here. These thoughts and practises belong in the same room of present day urban Jewish life.

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Then comes the very spectacular reason for the letter.

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The opportunity to travel to Palestine as part of a group of European Jews.

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So this journey belonged in the same real time of circumcision efforts and disdain of placing Jews in the intersection

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between practising modern European life and exploring and valorising specific Jewish path and meanings within it.

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So what we learnt from the letter is that Sikelel was a man who in early 1897 was aware and engaged in some of the challenges in European Jewish life.

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And a man interested in experiencing the excitement of a Europe that was opening up for Jews.

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From his perspective, Palestine seemed like a thrilling destination,

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both through a religious lens and an explorative tourist lens, which for him at the time was not mutually exclusive.

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To make a long story short of this point, Stangl joined the two months later in London while Chief Rabbi Simonsen stayed back home.

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Now let's unravel some of the circumstances of the Maccabean pilgrimage and how it

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became the supposedly first scientist to achieve Palestine and change like that.

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And the Maccabean pilgrimage has been mentioned and several scientists to help Rafi's ladies.

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Perhaps most well known and obvious, Shavitz promised land as it was his great grandfather, Herbert Benn, which would help organise it.

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And what's its two Leedham push a bit. The trip took place from the trip, which took place from April to May 1897,

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was a manifestation of the Jewish nation state dream that was at the core of Hurtfully and Zionism.

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It was a living attempt to connect the ideas of Hertel with the territory of Palestine and thus lay the groundwork for the state in the making.

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This was the perspective in that I should be present in this book, however, and there is a very big.

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However, this was not the purpose of the two at the time, and this was not what was really taking place.

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Doing to him. So she'll shove it does not unfold the complex meaning making that was taking

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place at the time and he does misses out on a fantastic opportunity to see what

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and how this first group of Jews who set out to assess Hurtles idea vis a vis

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the reality of Palestine and how they would engage themselves in this project.

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So it overlooks the web of meanings that they try to make sense of navigate in.

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And this becomes clear already when we look at the public discussion between Hertel and bandwidths about the very purpose and framing of the tool.

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So just a brief background into how the pilgrimage came about in the first place.

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So in their Uden stop, which Hetal had published a year earlier,

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Hadsell explicitly stated that he believed that a group of Western Jews should be in charge of materialising what he termed the scientist idea.

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He called this body the Society of the Jews and hope the Anglo Jewish intellectuals would comprise the bulk of this society.

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He had therefore presented his ideas for the Maccabean Club, a forum he identified as fitting the bill.

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The Maccabean Club was created in 1891 and whose official aim was to form a, quote,

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social intercourse and cooperation amongst its members with a view to the promotion of the interests of the Jewish race.

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So indeed, it was a club that aimed at creating an intellectual Jewish Monier without expressing affiliating with any political,

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religious or economic parties or interests. Its interests in Palestine was explicitly intellectual.

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It had invited Hadsell into its club in the summer of 1896. As a Jew of letters, not politics, as it was mentioned in its programme.

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So doing his talk in the club, Hadsell spoke passionately about the need for British Jews to engage in the future

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of European Jews and the need for creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

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The Maccabee ends hesitantly decided to establish a commission to enquire into Capsule's

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plan and subsequently and to send an expedition to Palestine to explore its potential.

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However, these were kind of empty or lofty meeting decisions that basically postponed the action to undefined future.

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It was to be, but no one really put it into practise how it was to be.

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Most of the Maccabees wanted to silence Purtell, but not but not generate any further action.

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However, community activist,

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lawyer and Maccabean member Herbert Banbridge wanted a different tree and was in fact very keen on exploring the validity of Hertz's ideas.

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So Benowitz had been a founding member of the London tent of Holovaty and was Orthodox Jews

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with a big hat and interest in strengthening both local and international Jewish communities.

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So together with the travel company Thomas Cook, he single handedly managed to organise what became known as the Maccabean pilgrimage to Palestine.

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He gradually began to see that the Maccabean members were neither going to help organise the tour nor going to participate.

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They made it clear to Benwood that a Jewish expedition to Palestine was not who they were and wanted to be.

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Bentwood soon began adjusting the Palestine to accordingly. He named it a pilgrimage instead of an expedition.

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He downgraded any political motive and finally invited queues from around the world to join him so that

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the notion of a commission or society of British Jews were replaced with a broader Jewish community.

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So in the itinerary, it was stated in the U. Could we go to the next slide, please?

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And I quote. And here's the picture of which in the pilgrimage is going to be one.

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And the Pilkey, it is going to be one of more than local.

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A personal concern. Not that we're going for any specifically religious, much less for any political purpose.

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Nor are we going as prospect, us or philanthropist and yet another man.

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Curiosity on hundreds of sites use. We shall go as Western Jews, evidencing only by our participation in the pilgrimage.

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The great truth for feeling of identity and brotherhood between our people, whatever they may be, speck of interest in our lands.

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However far we may be removed from it. And the quote.

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So bentwood here distinguish what the purpose, first of all was not before he came around to define the purpose in more positive terms.

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He laid out a whole series of dichotomies to which he carved out the two.

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And here we can move on to the next. Just so we can see in the more affirmative sight.

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The pilgrims were briston Jews.

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They had a relationship between their sense of peoplehood and their interest in their land, and they had a feeling of identity and brotherhood.

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They were not prospectors, philanthropist, curiosity, hundred sites.

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So, yes, they did not have any local personally concern in Palestine and they did not have any religious or political,

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religious or political purpose there. So that was a binary list of binaries that were listed from this description.

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We can learn quite a lot about the cultural codes that were underpinning the two leaders understanding of the travelling Jews and their mission.

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The binary is listed here stress the point that Western Jews stood above all the petty and particular concerns and

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purposes that non Western Jews and Western non Jews might have in their luggage when they travelled to Palestine.

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And what seems to be the key sexualising feature of these Jews were their affiliation with the West as Western Jews.

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They could have feelings of Jewish identity and brotherhood, which made them interested in the land of Israel without this being of a

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religious or political nature and without losing any of the Western affiliation.

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So in other words, travelling as Western Jews would not change their national or civic status,

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which is native Western, as apparently was unchangeable.

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The travel would instead simply allow them to strengthen a specific subquery to which was their Jewish identity.

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It seemed so paramount to bend which to flesh this point out Jews travel to Palestine would not change inch

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of the core Western values and would obviously not interfere with the national political affiliation.

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So these were clearly not up for grabs as the two began at least.

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So before we turn to the travel itself, let's look at how Hertel percent this journey.

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He was very invested in the idea that this travel would be a significant endeavour for the scientist movement.

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And here we can move on to the next leg under the title, The Return to Palestine.

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He wrote in the Jewish Chronicle on January 22nd, 1897, I quote, political scientist and sets to work Ahmad with all the means of the present day.

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In this sense, the pilgrimage of Mr. Bent, which is of significance, which cannot be underrated for the first time, a band of modern culture,

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Jews of all confession with a disturbing leading idea, make their way to the land of our fathers in order to personally explore it.

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It is a national enquiry commission singler of its kind.

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One calculated to raise our hopes and Hurtsville emphasis emphasised that this form of travel wasn't deemed a political act,

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since the group in Hurtles Eyes constituted a national unity entity.

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He insisted that the travelling Jews represented a national Jewish collectivity, that while being modern and cultured as it also bent,

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which states also had their own distinct political agenda about the Jewish future in Palestine.

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So to avoid these meanings would simply make the tour an empty gesture from Herschel's perspective.

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So, in other words, insisted on seeing the travel and its purpose as an entity which the Jewish

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community should see should see as part of the emergent scientist movement.

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The organising itself showed that there was no entity and there was no unified political agenda behind it.

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In order to actually organise a tour to Palestine in early 1897, Bentwood had to adapt and adjust to.

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And the. To outline in a way that resonated with enough Jews who were willing and ready

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to set out and could afford it to set out to Palestine as a Jewish pilgrimage.

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He needed to find the Frankel's in Jewish communities around the world who could identify and project their feelings and understanding of Jewish past,

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present and future in a way that makes signing up and going to Palestine a move, a meaningful and an exciting endeavour.

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So now let's find this zoom in on some of the stops on the journey where we see

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some of these negotiations of what Jewish nation would meant for these travellers.

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So in the end of logical literature on pilgrimage, we generally see studies divided into three parts.

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We have this we have the travelling, the journey, the destination and the return.

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Right. And while thankful has it, that has had his eye solidly focussed on Palestine,

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the twenty one participant who ended up going quickly seem much more in miss in the travelling itself.

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The American Jewish pilgrim Fennimore wrote. And here we can go to next book.

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So I quote. So that small incongruence. Body was made up of so many salts, and yet in the few weeks that we shared all with each other,

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there was nothing but kindness on the part of one and all the six days and the beautiful blue Mediterranean with it,

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with its very short of Italy and Sardinia, were most delightful part of our journey.

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We were all well acquainted by this time, having been together more in those days than years of ordinary life.

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Thank you. Throughout the whole trip.

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Wrote one to two letters home to his mom and wrote diaries which we have which I found in the Danish state archives.

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So frankly, it was even more enthusiastic about being in motion with a group of international Jews.

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And we can move on to the next slide. I quote, It is a pleasure to be part of this trip where everyone, men and women, are such good friends.

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It would have been impossible to get 20 people from Denmark on a tour like this without

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some of them choking and eating Thai food on another table or smoking on Shabbas.

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One does not have room for homesickness.

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One is completely at home here, and that in the middle of the sea where we see no living creature other than ourselves.

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And of course, so as prescribed in the anthropological pilgrimage literature,

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the travelling itself creates an intense sense of community and a temporary ratio of social differences.

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Commune communities is the anthropological concept for this phenomenon.

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So but what is interesting in this part of the process of the Jewish pilgrimage is that the space created amongst the travellers was not,

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in fact a classic to turn in case of a. structure.

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That is a liminal space liberated from normal structural conditions.

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As Franco enthusiastically noted, the space was in fact structured around Jewish time and Jewish meanings for Franco.

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This was my idea of a Jewish ritual practise that made it tangibly different than non Jewish spaces.

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The second remarkable aspect of this tool was that it felt like a Jewish home, though it had no territorial attachment is right.

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Fennimore went as far as to call the time on the boat itself. Homecoming.

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So when they come to the boat, when they have been on show and come back to the boat, she said, I'm coming home.

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So almost identical to what Hertzel later wrote in Neulasta.

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I wonder whether he has he had read that if any more writing.

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So what he wrote in an island when he described Western travellers coming to Palestine declaring unbolt the ship, that that was in fact, Siân itself.

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And these views expressed, in other words,

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a Jewish belonging to each other and the non territorial community that had taken shape and meaning before the group went ashore in Palestine.

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This group feeling was not expressed in political terms submission, but it was noted as a new experience of Jewish collectivity.

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It was marked as a different Jewish community sensation than they had hitherto hitherto engaged

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in with social and religious differences were put aside and geographical attachments forgotten.

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Arriving to Palestine, however, and here you can take the next picture.

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Arriving to Palestine, however, generated much more conflictual feelings for Palestine, was not a shrine or organised, formalised, sacral destination.

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At the end of pilgrimage traditionally entails the feeling of intake of elevated Jewish collectivity that was generated along the way quickly

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began to disintegrate as the participants tried to make sense of the things they experienced in Palestine and connected these with the past.

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They embodied in the future they imagined. So just like the travel itself proved to generate a lot of unexpected feelings of

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Jewish collectivity that were not irrelevant for the Latvian nationalist project.

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The actual seeing and being in Palestine proved paramount.

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A new layer of feelings amongst the pilgrims, as we shall see now.

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These feelings did not, however, align neatly with hurtles image of a new Jewish homeland.

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So Fanni, ma'am, the excitement and joy about the whole pilgrimage so far that ended almost as soon as they went ashore in Palestine.

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In her own words, I quote, So ended those quiet, peaceful, happy times.

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End of quote. So in rather oh, in complete Orientalists time, she described the arrival to Yaffa as follow.

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I quote the arrival on shore where eastern life in all its degrading aspect, met.

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In reality, the walk through the town amidst great filth happened to be maggoty.

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The human beings, animals, vegetables, meat and fruit formed one mass that reviewing it from the balcony of the hotel was entire punk liberation.

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The streets is narrow and as I said, very filthy.

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End of quote. In this perspective, Palestine was immediately identified as the backward east that represented all the values and social

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forms that the West and thus also these Western Jews had either rejected or progressed away from.

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For these pilgrims, Palestine could hardly be distinguished from from the landscape.

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Jewish Palestine could not be distinguished. British Jewish writer Samuel Levy Bensoussan turned into the most Palestine critical pilgrim.

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After the visit, which can be read in his description of Jerusalem, which was published in Jewish in the Jewish Chronicle on May 14, 1897.

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So yeah, quote, The people who pray for the return to Jerusalem, who hope that Israel may again become a nation,

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who are enthusiastic about the city of our forefathers, would do well to spend a short time in the city.

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Jerusalem and through the medium of a first impression is a city hopelessly sad and sadly hopeless.

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And though there is a perceptible quiver of new life in the younger generation,

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it is as yet too faint to justify an anticipation of the return of ancient glories and of, quote, another British Jewish writer more known.

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Israel sang. Will echoed some of these sentiments when he described Jerusalem as, quote,

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a ruined country in which one road for hours admit rocks and stones then made him feel himself in the presence of the rip of Mother Earth.

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End of quote. However, for single, there was a silver lining in the whole Palestine experience.

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Unlike Bensoussan saying will go strong to some of the Jewish inhabitants that he met, which he described as, quote,

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fascinating types of both kind of dreamers, those who dream with their eyes shut and those who dreams with their eyes open.

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And though Singles' encounter with these people through saying Wiltse encounter with

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these people he engaged with rather than rejecting part of his own Jewish self.

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It gave him food for thought. Though he did not sign him up unequivocally for the scientist course, fulfilling Flagel and Benowitz.

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However, two Jews who shared an Orthodox background and both worked in the liberal professions.

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The experience of Palestine became key to the future commitment to scientism.

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Unlike many of the other pilgrims, what Finckel and Ben, which saw and perceived during their stay in Palestine,

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added further layers to the Jewish community or commonality, their solidarity and the homeliness that they experienced on the journey so far.

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And Finkel expressed this in organic, sedentary nationalist terms when he wrote home, and I quote.

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Even though we have not yet seen milk and honey flow,

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I don't believe that I've ever seen such a fertile country, nor have been in such a lovely climate.

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You feel that you belong here, and I can almost compare us with flowers that have been standing in a pot, but now a planet where they're taken from.

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The comparison is not mine, but it's pretty and it's true. End of quote Banbridge Road and Jewish Chronicle and Jew.

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June 4th, 1897. That my quote The Pilgrims found the land, a garden, the path for days etched by a very garland of flowers.

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It wasn't a country with might be said to flow with milk and honey and the scenery to which they passed.

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Had every verity of charm in it, from the imposing grandeur of the Alps to the softness and diversity of our English place.

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Jerusalem, the much maligned, was still a beautiful city and of gold.

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So while Thankful expressed an identification of true and authentic Jewish roots in the country,

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a nativist kind of belonging bent which rather depicted how you could see European and European topography in Palestine.

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Palestine would thus align with the Western Jewish values through association between these two places.

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So these were rather different interpretation of the relationship between Palestine and the Western Jewish pilgrimage.

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Though both of these reasserted some aspect of the Hurtles scheme.

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So returning to the question of Zionist emergence.

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I'll begin by noting that the various experience, feelings and opinions that the pilgrims develop about Palestine and such a.

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About scientism was it was not there prior to the trip.

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This might seem very banal and that's a self-evident point,

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but it relates to a key matter in the study of scientist emergence and its later consolidation into different camps and oppositional movements.

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The words and thoughts of Hadsell and any of the other early scientist thinkers

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were not in themselves enough for these Jews to develop any deep or life changing,

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changing commitments to scientism. Rather, it became the travel itself, both to and in Palestine,

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that made a string of differences appear relevant and important for the pilgrims to relate to and make sense of

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that individual and collective Jewishness changed form and meaning doing the trip as these differences were felt,

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expressed and reflected upon. However, as long as the trip was on and the group remained together, the participants seemed to stay in a friendly mood.

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Their sense of togetherness overrode their different experience interpretations of Palestine.

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So as the final horseback ride from Jerusalem to Damascus, which lasted several days,

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it also foregrounded physical breadth rather than ideological differences, right?

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So as if they followed eternal symbolic model of pilgrimage, the sense of community has lasted, in other words,

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until the pilgrims left the group and returned home to a different Jewish communities and countries.

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It is from this point the return from Palestine and the Jewish pilgrimage and to the Jewish communities.

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This from this point that we can begin to identify the crystallisation of different

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collective agreements and disagreement related to Palestine and Western duty.

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We can begin to identify not just divisions of perspective,

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but organised Mac differences that would that would eventually be further organised into recognisable Zionist territorial and nonsense stance.

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So I'll show now in my final part. So let's return to thank you and the Danish Jews for as is known in Scandinavian Jewish history.

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Following the trip to Palestine,

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Finckel actually became the dominant figure within the region to promote and organise scientism in both formal and informal ways.

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In 1983, he established and chaired the Danish Scientist Association,

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and 10 years later he was a key force behind the creation of the Scandinavian Science Association.

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However, in this historiography,

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these attempts have generally been described as futile and thankful himself as a one man powerhouse that made a lot of things happen

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but never really managed to create any change or not succeed in turning 20th century Scandinavian Jews into alyea oriented scientist.

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The question always comes up how many Jews ended up immigrating?

388
00:42:08,990 --> 00:42:16,180
So he's seen as some kind of a failure in this perspective, thankless travel and his many experience along the way.

389
00:42:16,180 --> 00:42:22,040
Died out in his return to Denmark. Scientism was this idea that he sent it to the Danish Jews.

390
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,780
They rejected it. End of story, though. However,

391
00:42:26,780 --> 00:42:36,470
if we refrain from seeing scientism scientist emergence as something that consisted of fixed entities that could either be accepted or received

392
00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:45,170
and instead look for cultural processes where meaning making in cultural codes or practise experience negotiating means made sense of,

393
00:42:45,170 --> 00:42:53,660
we can actually see that both the travel and science and came to play significant roles and they need Jewish meaning making in the following decades.

394
00:42:53,660 --> 00:43:04,080
So Justice Bend, which early on had realised that the Maccabean Jews did not want overt political symbols connected with the travel to Palestine.

395
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,770
We'll use the next decade testing, developing,

396
00:43:06,770 --> 00:43:16,040
adjusting and reasserting how different versions of Jewish national collectivity related to Palestine, how that sat with the Danish Jews.

397
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:21,690
While Feingold became a paying and dedicated member of the scientist organisation and publicly identified with

398
00:43:21,690 --> 00:43:30,800
Hertz's political vision of Jewish homeland of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and Panopto wanted to be in Palestine.

399
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:35,660
He also realised that he needed to engage and reshuffle some of the core values

400
00:43:35,660 --> 00:43:40,250
with the debt within the Danish Jewish community for them to follow his lead.

401
00:43:40,250 --> 00:43:45,800
The distance from formal and its commitment to communal Danish Jewish affairs and

402
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:51,420
engagement was simply too far for Frankel's simply two percent scientism as the truth.

403
00:43:51,420 --> 00:43:54,950
God not only realise this in incongruence,

404
00:43:54,950 --> 00:44:02,750
but he also found the task of renegotiation in these cultural codes absolutely central for the future of Danish jewellery.

405
00:44:02,750 --> 00:44:09,260
And he took this task upon him. So, I mean, here we can go to less like them.

406
00:44:09,260 --> 00:44:13,880
These are pictures of some of his activities and I won't have time to go over all the.

407
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:19,160
Activities that Finckel initiated in this effort to try to change.

408
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:24,680
They need to Jewish community without foregrounding any explicit scientist agenda.

409
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,820
But I will give you an example of one of his most popular ways.

410
00:44:28,820 --> 00:44:37,840
That is the illustrated lectures. His most popular lecture was titled And Here Comes The Big Surprise of Palestine Journey,

411
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:44,090
and was held for the first time in early eighteen early, eighteen ninety eight.

412
00:44:44,090 --> 00:44:53,000
And it was repeated over and over again over the next ten years and also revised, attracting each time hundreds of people.

413
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,590
It was organised not as a scientist event, though. Sometimes it was also a scientist event.

414
00:44:57,590 --> 00:45:05,300
But many, most of the time it was not a scientist event but an event for the Jewish and non Jewish cultural public of Copenhagen.

415
00:45:05,300 --> 00:45:12,680
Finkel invited the audience to join him on a trip to Palestine. And he I quote, ladies and gentlemen, he opened the lecture.

416
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:18,050
We are going on a pretty long journey and are going to see quite a lot in a very short time.

417
00:45:18,050 --> 00:45:22,220
The largest Mediterranean steamer, she'll bring us to Palestine.

418
00:45:22,220 --> 00:45:31,460
And with more than one hundred pictures of Palestine accompanying him, which he had received from his scientist contacts in Berlin,

419
00:45:31,460 --> 00:45:39,500
he took the Jewish and non Jewish audience through a highly selected tour of what he evoked as a Jewish Palestine.

420
00:45:39,500 --> 00:45:43,440
An example of this can be seen in his evocation of Jerusalem.

421
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:50,000
I quote, Finally, we are in Jerusalem. What unique sound has the word Jerusalem?

422
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:57,380
We have heard about it from childhood. There has always covered something mystic about it, something eternally distant in time and space.

423
00:45:57,380 --> 00:46:03,170
And now here we are to describe the impression one gets.

424
00:46:03,170 --> 00:46:07,340
The first time one puts his foot down on the ground here is impossible.

425
00:46:07,340 --> 00:46:12,320
It has to be felt. One is both happy and overwrought at the same time.

426
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:19,400
And of course, so the lecture was one long evocation of a Palestine that was contemporary, alive.

427
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:24,530
Accessible Western and yet distinctively Jewish.

428
00:46:24,530 --> 00:46:29,000
At no point did Frankel mention Zionism. Instead, he placed people,

429
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,890
the audience in this performative place where they were there with their senses and could

430
00:46:33,890 --> 00:46:39,950
experience what it was like to travel and be a part of a Jewish homeland in the making.

431
00:46:39,950 --> 00:46:44,180
Rather than try to convince Copenhagen Jews to sign up for the movement,

432
00:46:44,180 --> 00:46:50,270
he tried to change their immediate feeling and perception of contemporary Palestine and Jewish belonging.

433
00:46:50,270 --> 00:46:54,440
So in this process, Finckel needed over and over again.

434
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:58,100
Some of the core values of Danish Chewey that, amongst other things,

435
00:46:58,100 --> 00:47:05,150
defined the Danish Jews through privatised religious belonging and Danish territorial nationality.

436
00:47:05,150 --> 00:47:12,560
To continuously place modern Jewish Palestine in the middle of the Danish Jewish public was in fact a major accomplishment.

437
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:18,710
That gradually gave way to a more expansive, expansive understanding of Danish Jewish belonging.

438
00:47:18,710 --> 00:47:25,430
While the vast majority of Danish Jewish Jews prior to World War Two never identified a scientist,

439
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:35,840
many in practise began an act of Jewishness that allowed for an ethnic identification with Jewish others, both inside and outside the Danish borders.

440
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:45,260
So Palestine, Jewish immigrants, Jewish politics and Jewish Walti affair gradually ceased to be seen as something antithetical to Danish Jewishness.

441
00:47:45,260 --> 00:47:54,740
Instead, it became the real of what they need to. Jews could and sometimes even did relate to join disgust and sometimes appropriate.

442
00:47:54,740 --> 00:48:02,540
So just to round up now, did the travel to Palestine in eighteen ninety seven really cause all this can

443
00:48:02,540 --> 00:48:07,990
thankful and don't accurately be attributed as a central force behind these changes.

444
00:48:07,990 --> 00:48:14,290
No, from the cultural sociological perspective that I unfolded doing this lecture process,

445
00:48:14,290 --> 00:48:19,790
a meaning making rather than individual events, a person should be seen as central.

446
00:48:19,790 --> 00:48:27,990
As I've outlined over the last 40 minutes, many processes intersected for Franco to change his perspective and for him to

447
00:48:27,990 --> 00:48:32,420
manage to translate to some of these experience to a Danish Jewish audience.

448
00:48:32,420 --> 00:48:37,100
However, in the context of enriching our understanding of scientists, the merchants,

449
00:48:37,100 --> 00:48:41,840
we need to construct more empirically thick descriptions like the one that I presented you

450
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:47,270
with that represent the thrust of meaning making that was happening for scientism to evolve,

451
00:48:47,270 --> 00:48:53,490
create, change and get Jews mobilised both for and against its main ideas.

452
00:48:53,490 --> 00:49:14,100
Thank you. I think I read somewhere that you're still on mute, it's been like the most quoted sentence of 20, 20 anyway.

453
00:49:14,100 --> 00:49:22,260
And I'm happy to embody that sense and kind of own it. Maya, thank you so much for a really interesting and quite new, actually.

454
00:49:22,260 --> 00:49:26,010
You didn't take on all of this stuff. I have a fair few questions.

455
00:49:26,010 --> 00:49:30,390
I'm not sure how erudite some of them are. I think I was going to start off, if you don't mind.

456
00:49:30,390 --> 00:49:37,580
I'll take the advantage of taking the first question and maybe I should go to the chat just to see our questions already published.

457
00:49:37,580 --> 00:49:41,220
OK, so I can't see anything. Hold on.

458
00:49:41,220 --> 00:49:45,360
I just hope this is doesn't take my screen off. It does take my screen off.

459
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,870
OK. Right. OK. So I don't know.

460
00:49:48,870 --> 00:49:53,430
I've got it open anyway. All right.

461
00:49:53,430 --> 00:49:57,680
So much so. I can't. I can't get I can't see any of the questions yet.

462
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:03,700
Oh yes. I see it anyway. Sorry about Sowmya. I'm you talk about this this idea of the process, which I totally agree with you,

463
00:50:03,700 --> 00:50:08,370
that we we speak so much of kind of, you know, the teleological idea of Zionism.

464
00:50:08,370 --> 00:50:10,140
Of course, a team has changed over time.

465
00:50:10,140 --> 00:50:15,300
And we just think I'm not even sure we differ on the Telos at the beginning or that, you know, kind of, as you say,

466
00:50:15,300 --> 00:50:22,530
the protest on into the early Zionist defined as Tila's had a few few could have come up kind of things that I noticed as you were talking.

467
00:50:22,530 --> 00:50:26,760
Kercheval, 1897 is not really the beginning of Zionism.

468
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,580
Immigration's beginning and perhaps had in Zionist immigrant rights.

469
00:50:30,580 --> 00:50:35,670
It's a bit we would talk. It takes place already 17 years into what we might call the first Daliyah.

470
00:50:35,670 --> 00:50:38,850
I think that's just something I just would notice and maybe you could comment about that.

471
00:50:38,850 --> 00:50:47,070
But I guess going back to Dame Denmark, which is something we hear almost nothing about, which is why are so interested in having you speak for us.

472
00:50:47,070 --> 00:50:52,100
You know, there's this I suppose the one thing we didn't talk about too much and I wanted to maybe

473
00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:57,690
if you could comment on this is so much of what informed Zae is designed as more of the

474
00:50:57,690 --> 00:51:01,590
embrace of Zionism or the rejection of Zionism had something to do with the tension in

475
00:51:01,590 --> 00:51:06,450
each part in each particular European country between assimilation and anti-Semitism.

476
00:51:06,450 --> 00:51:11,880
I would say. And I just wondered if you could comment about that in the Danish context, please.

477
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:24,250
If that's not too crazy. And so, I mean, that has been when I started studying scientism in Scandinavia.

478
00:51:24,250 --> 00:51:26,670
The West is obvious. I mean, I'm saying obvious.

479
00:51:26,670 --> 00:51:36,120
There was this very accepted framework of how we understand the development of the Scandinavian what's the specific Danish community development.

480
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:41,880
And there was this obvious that the Danes during the 19th century became more assimilated.

481
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:46,230
Immigrants, Jewish immigrants came at end of 19th century and that faded.

482
00:51:46,230 --> 00:51:50,880
They they brought Zionism. So to say. And there was this crash.

483
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:56,700
There was this conflict. And this Emulex story kind of approach dominated.

484
00:51:56,700 --> 00:52:06,570
And so even though Stangel and his activities was noticed, there was like assimilation, that the safer assimilation was just too heavy or too.

485
00:52:06,570 --> 00:52:09,840
And so we we don't that's kind of what we don't see.

486
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:14,070
All that negotiation and meaning taking that action is taking place.

487
00:52:14,070 --> 00:52:20,490
What I mean, I almost stopped using the term assimilation because it just becomes this cloud.

488
00:52:20,490 --> 00:52:29,130
What we don't see all the movement actually happening. OK. And this is really where I want to integrate cultural and political studies,

489
00:52:29,130 --> 00:52:35,970
because there a lot of the self understanding of changing the fact that people meeting in different

490
00:52:35,970 --> 00:52:43,740
ways how the established Danish Jewish community had to meet the immigrants that first I mean,

491
00:52:43,740 --> 00:52:47,670
the the established Jewish community really wanted just to get the immigrants

492
00:52:47,670 --> 00:52:54,420
moving on like they all that they and they think they funded a lot of money,

493
00:52:54,420 --> 00:53:01,610
which simply which used as train tickets, also bought tickets to I mean, to London or to further on.

494
00:53:01,610 --> 00:53:06,300
And the immigrants were like, thank you. We didn't want to come to Copenhagen. We wanted to go to London all to us.

495
00:53:06,300 --> 00:53:09,890
So everyone was kind of happy. But thank you.

496
00:53:09,890 --> 00:53:16,380
He was like, no, no, no. This is a potential. This is we can widen the Jewish community actively engaged with the immigrants.

497
00:53:16,380 --> 00:53:21,990
But he told them Danish. He also sometimes signed them up for his courses.

498
00:53:21,990 --> 00:53:26,070
He called the Danish class a status like there was a lot of things going on at

499
00:53:26,070 --> 00:53:32,610
the same time where the term assimilation really doesn't cover all the many,

500
00:53:32,610 --> 00:53:36,810
many processes that were happening where where my and my argument is.

501
00:53:36,810 --> 00:53:46,080
Things change, like how you saw themselves, even though they didn't sign up in full for scientism and things were changing.

502
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:54,060
So I found that the this assimilated every kind of approach a little bit unhelpful.

503
00:53:54,060 --> 00:53:58,140
OK, so we've a question from Marcus, which I've not been able to access.

504
00:53:58,140 --> 00:54:03,490
So Marcus has fantastic presentation story. Many thanks. When will your book be published?

505
00:54:03,490 --> 00:54:11,820
So. So I guess. Not ready to give us any additional information about meetings or encounters of any between

506
00:54:11,820 --> 00:54:18,370
the pilgrims and the leaders of the Jewish communities that they encountered in Palestine, who I assume were mostly Sephardim.

507
00:54:18,370 --> 00:54:24,330
Oh, no. I mean, they met with the I mean, they as you were saying, like scientists had.

508
00:54:24,330 --> 00:54:31,050
I mean, scientists people had already scientist oriented people and people had already come there.

509
00:54:31,050 --> 00:54:38,010
So when they landed in UFO, Hendricks flew from Germany, was already there.

510
00:54:38,010 --> 00:54:42,960
He welcomed them. And then you, Hooda, they met with Ben.

511
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:48,480
You who did? They also met with the Sephardic, but they met with also all the people, the younger people,

512
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:55,500
the colonists, they called them and they also called them the Jewish cowboys in.

513
00:54:55,500 --> 00:55:03,870
And where did where did they go? They went to, of course, the arms and the agricultural school.

514
00:55:03,870 --> 00:55:13,870
And they met and they went to some of the colonies around. So they did definitely meet a in like they had many meetings a day with with the Jewish.

515
00:55:13,870 --> 00:55:18,150
And the issue that was there was a Jewish cowboys.

516
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:22,320
It's quite funny that Mr. Hote Cinema Centre's cinematographer.

517
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:26,670
But I know that was one would think later he said this is really just the whole cinema genre.

518
00:55:26,670 --> 00:55:31,380
We could have had this sort of the spaghetti western. We could have the night like Western and something like that.

519
00:55:31,380 --> 00:55:35,670
So so Mark Sullivan. So Ya'akov you're going to say something about it.

520
00:55:35,670 --> 00:55:40,590
Yes. About the book. Sorry Mark. It's in the making.

521
00:55:40,590 --> 00:55:46,680
I do. I do. It's yeah it is in the book.

522
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:52,800
So Mark Sullivan asks. Very interesting to see how Frankel developed his approach.

523
00:55:52,800 --> 00:56:00,540
Just before Hertz's eight, 1887 conference to move my mouth down but quickly became a follower of Hartzell,

524
00:56:00,540 --> 00:56:04,380
an advocate of Hertz's ideas, as I understand the dates in this lecture.

525
00:56:04,380 --> 00:56:09,600
I guess that's not just a comment. Why do you want to comment further on that by heart?

526
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:15,060
I think that's why I fell in love with this. I mean, this was not to be. This is my from my speech, the studies.

527
00:56:15,060 --> 00:56:19,830
And I wasn't simple. I was supposed to do like a 50 year any scientist development.

528
00:56:19,830 --> 00:56:23,940
And then I just found, you know, I started finding letters and finding this pilgrimage.

529
00:56:23,940 --> 00:56:33,840
And I mean, as a historian who believes as a logical historical it and a story inspired by anthropology, understanding this timeliness,

530
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:42,210
understanding that time before 1890, like, you know, I have always started my scientist historiography with August.

531
00:56:42,210 --> 00:56:49,230
What is it, thirty or twenty nine in 1897. So I found it extremely interesting to see the time before.

532
00:56:49,230 --> 00:56:54,060
And to understand what was crystallised. I mean, what positions were already there?

533
00:56:54,060 --> 00:56:57,420
What was in the making. How I mean that's really what I'm interested in.

534
00:56:57,420 --> 00:57:02,100
How does how do one develop your political positions?

535
00:57:02,100 --> 00:57:08,130
Right. And so I mean, it's I'm definitely, you know, find it fascinating.

536
00:57:08,130 --> 00:57:15,870
Exactly. That it's half a year before, while some know what is day Kanata sized dates of 1897.

537
00:57:15,870 --> 00:57:21,390
I mean, I would almost argue than 1897 kind of scientism becomes Western, you know.

538
00:57:21,390 --> 00:57:26,190
I mean, we have that kind of at the beginning was on immigration 1880, which is very much Eastern.

539
00:57:26,190 --> 00:57:30,150
But I wanted to ask I would have kind of lost something else that I was struck by.

540
00:57:30,150 --> 00:57:38,910
So you mentioned you quote Hartzog writing in the Jewish Chronicle. And I can remember exactly what he said, but I think it's not even not important.

541
00:57:38,910 --> 00:57:45,870
I think it's quite interesting to note that, you know, the just before the first sign, as Congress from Hertzfeld written, kind of,

542
00:57:45,870 --> 00:57:53,760
you know, the Jewish state, which is to a certain degree very much informed by his situation and Hapsburg as a Hapsburg Jew.

543
00:57:53,760 --> 00:58:01,630
And he you know, the first the first conference would take place in Basel, which I suppose is was I think was really supposed to be Munich, wasn't it?

544
00:58:01,630 --> 00:58:10,410
But he appeals to an English audience when he's talking about about the about would you call it a pilgrimage?

545
00:58:10,410 --> 00:58:17,220
It's quite interesting to me. And I'm wondering I mean, it's I suppose if I forget to talk about meeting like him in this appeal to England,

546
00:58:17,220 --> 00:58:22,740
it's very interesting to me, obviously, because it has very much take it where it becomes very, very important later on.

547
00:58:22,740 --> 00:58:27,100
But I just wanted to maybe it just struck me that this is rather interesting.

548
00:58:27,100 --> 00:58:34,310
So I wondered if you could comment or maybe suggest reasons, you know, perhaps his appeal to an English audience and the Jewish Chronicle.

549
00:58:34,310 --> 00:58:41,250
And so, I mean, there several questions. So it's no doubt who was like who is in?

550
00:58:41,250 --> 00:58:44,640
I mean, this is quite a few years back where I was sitting with these papers.

551
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:48,620
So I have to if I'm mistaking some of the chronology, please excuse me.

552
00:58:48,620 --> 00:58:55,100
But as I remember, it is NORDO who suggested he goes meet to meet Ishmael single.

553
00:58:55,100 --> 00:59:00,240
And I mean, first, it's not like Etzel is on one horse.

554
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:04,300
He's trying his luck several places. So I think, you know, as I remember.

555
00:59:04,300 --> 00:59:08,050
He was rejected in Paris. I mean, the French Jews were not interested in him.

556
00:59:08,050 --> 00:59:12,790
So he goes there. And what I mean, England, it's the colony. I mean, it's the empire.

557
00:59:12,790 --> 00:59:15,670
I mean, that is where he sees the potential.

558
00:59:15,670 --> 00:59:25,410
And what I find so fascinating and why I kind of just described a little bit the Maccabean Club, like these intellectual British Jews,

559
00:59:25,410 --> 00:59:31,930
like they just insisted, insisted, insisted on being described themselves as non-political,

560
00:59:31,930 --> 00:59:36,250
like the very you know, I went I think they're the the act.

561
00:59:36,250 --> 00:59:42,910
The archive of the Maccabean is in Southhampton at the Southampton Library.

562
00:59:42,910 --> 00:59:49,420
I went there and just to read to read up on what? And they just to form the club was kind of like, you know,

563
00:59:49,420 --> 00:59:58,400
to be Jews in a group was almost controversial for them because they did not want to be identified in any collective Jewish sense.

564
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:01,360
So they were very careful about that.

565
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:10,480
So I I'm just so struck about Hertzel coming there and having these ideas, what he can use, these British Jewish law and the British doing.

566
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:15,160
They were just so far away from that sense that he did not want.

567
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:21,040
It wasn't that they didn't want to be part of that project. They didn't even want to be defined in political terms.

568
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:25,540
So that's really what we see, like how far some of these positions were from each other.

569
01:00:25,540 --> 01:00:31,990
And, of course, people change. Like Ben, which change and some very pragmatic reasons and some out of commitments.

570
01:00:31,990 --> 01:00:37,580
Right. But it was really within a few years, we see a lot of change happening.

571
01:00:37,580 --> 01:00:43,780
And yeah, but I was also very and in my in my book, because it's not in my book,

572
01:00:43,780 --> 01:00:51,400
I am spending much more time on the English context because it is relevant to understand both Churchill's idea of why this group.

573
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:57,130
And also how it formed the idea of the pilgrimage. I have another question.

574
01:00:57,130 --> 01:01:00,850
Nobody else. I have a few questions. Want Target is not with my questions.

575
01:01:00,850 --> 01:01:10,120
My but I'm I suppose I could you just give a little bit more context as to the decision to to include Frenkel on the tour?

576
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:12,310
I mean, which way did it come from?

577
01:01:12,310 --> 01:01:19,880
You know, I might have missed this, by the way, but I've never found the first initial invitation, as I understand.

578
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:26,960
And Benbrika, after realising that I think there was three Maccabean signing up, it will saying Bill was one of them.

579
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:31,590
He he wrote he wrote out to Jewish communities around the world.

580
01:01:31,590 --> 01:01:36,520
I mean, those people from there was some Americans. There was Italian.

581
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:40,180
There was Klingel. So he said, just like, I need a community.

582
01:01:40,180 --> 01:01:43,960
I need I need I need participants. Yeah.

583
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:53,350
So he I mean, and it was upper middle class and Jews who were, as I was saying, I mean, it's interesting to think who wanted to go on this too.

584
01:01:53,350 --> 01:02:01,870
Of course, you have to have the economical means. You had to have the ability to like, you know, it was not in the context of today,

585
01:02:01,870 --> 01:02:07,180
like I think he said it out in December and the trip was gonna be in April to take two months off.

586
01:02:07,180 --> 01:02:11,900
That's what they said about the people who could do that.

587
01:02:11,900 --> 01:02:17,830
Yeah. But also understanding something about like.

588
01:02:17,830 --> 01:02:26,680
The group of Jews at this point who was interested in both understanding Palestine or like identifying, understanding and exploring Palestine.

589
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:33,910
Something about this mix of wanting to be proud of this openness and exploring not just Palestine, Europe.

590
01:02:33,910 --> 01:02:38,320
Right. And also being part of a Jewish chool.

591
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:43,750
And that was I don't think it was that big group who actually fit that bill.

592
01:02:43,750 --> 01:02:48,310
But I haven't done the full I think I've seen six travel diaries.

593
01:02:48,310 --> 01:02:55,800
And I mean, I still have like I'm still waking up in the middle of night and thinking they're still 15, 16.

594
01:02:55,800 --> 01:03:00,150
But I have quite a lot of material. I think it'd be interesting to find out.

595
01:03:00,150 --> 01:03:05,860
I don't actually know myself, but it'd be interesting to find out if this was kind of the first non Christian Victorian kind of expedition.

596
01:03:05,860 --> 01:03:10,060
And when you said they didn't want to call an expedition, I think that's it. That's very notable, actually.

597
01:03:10,060 --> 01:03:15,610
But, you know, there were there were a couple before that just before. And I you know, I should have should have looked this up before.

598
01:03:15,610 --> 01:03:21,730
I can think of the name of the group that undertook it. There's both an American and a British kind of Palestine exploration.

599
01:03:21,730 --> 01:03:26,920
So Ya'akov, you've got there's a note of caution from Mark if you can.

600
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:31,660
So I don't, I'm sorry I, I don't have a I'm sorry about that.

601
01:03:31,660 --> 01:03:33,550
I just don't have to scroll down.

602
01:03:33,550 --> 01:03:40,390
So can I ask my to say how Louis Frankel and his supporters in Denmark responded to the Balfour Declaration of 2nd November 1917.

603
01:03:40,390 --> 01:03:45,130
Was his activity after 1917 in Denmark and other Scandinavian countries?

604
01:03:45,130 --> 01:03:51,550
Danish Jews seem to have followed the much larger British Jewish community in its approach, so referred to benefit senior father.

605
01:03:51,550 --> 01:03:59,530
Norman, obviously, and Weitzman was the key figure after 1917. And so Mark Zandi just I got to put the two together.

606
01:03:59,530 --> 01:04:07,410
Mark notes also that Denmark was a neutral country in 1914 in a certain First World War and kept links with Britain through World War One.

607
01:04:07,410 --> 01:04:11,640
Yeah. So I think there's a few questions in there.

608
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:17,760
I mean, first of all, so the scientist headquarters doing World War One were in Copenhagen, right?

609
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:22,620
So you had to sign it. So there was quite a lot of activities, activity in those years.

610
01:04:22,620 --> 01:04:26,700
And frankly. I mean, he's connected with these.

611
01:04:26,700 --> 01:04:30,960
You put it. He's I mean, as a doctor, he starts working more.

612
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:38,280
He's travelling around in First World War trying to figure out what he can as a medical professional do.

613
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:43,800
But in the Balfour Declaration and the Jewish community was actually quite like embraced.

614
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:47,130
So I'm saying Jewish community. It was dominated, not dominated.

615
01:04:47,130 --> 01:04:51,900
But there was a big group of Jewish immigrants and the scientists headquarters and so on.

616
01:04:51,900 --> 01:04:58,170
So then there was the descriptions I read was that there was kind of, you know, flags and so on.

617
01:04:58,170 --> 01:05:02,070
So. So that was the first question.

618
01:05:02,070 --> 01:05:08,500
The second question was that how it developed after World War II getting into war years?

619
01:05:08,500 --> 01:05:15,770
Yeah. Yeah. What was his activity after 1917 in Denmark and other Scandinavian countries?

620
01:05:15,770 --> 01:05:20,780
So that really becomes a much. I mean, I haven't fully mapped that.

621
01:05:20,780 --> 01:05:26,360
I mean, I haven't mapped that into war years because there's many different kind of narratives going on.

622
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:31,790
One is, you know, just building on the first saying, like, you know, fascism was rejected.

623
01:05:31,790 --> 01:05:39,590
It was such a similar story, country and only when with and job with the refugees started coming.

624
01:05:39,590 --> 01:05:43,970
And later on, like the Jewish communities decided taking care.

625
01:05:43,970 --> 01:05:50,720
But that's I'm not convinced by that narrative because I see many of the Yiddish speaking.

626
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:56,300
I mean, the East European Jews who ended up settling in Copenhagen. They created a subculture.

627
01:05:56,300 --> 01:06:01,700
I wouldn't say a subculture parallel where there was future. There was many more journals.

628
01:06:01,700 --> 01:06:09,590
There was a cultural life there. There were some I mean, at some point eight.

629
01:06:09,590 --> 01:06:17,310
I think it's 1960 17. And Copenhagen was one of the biggest centres of Yiddish theatre before it moved to a shelter.

630
01:06:17,310 --> 01:06:19,600
My friend was there before we moved to New York.

631
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:27,440
So there was a small you know, there was a lot of happening in the in the war period, which I don't think has been properly like, you know,

632
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:36,620
it hasn't been properly mapped out because we keep on focussing on the established like the Danish Jewish institution didn't change almost.

633
01:06:36,620 --> 01:06:42,230
There was very little changed. The official policies wasn't that different.

634
01:06:42,230 --> 01:06:47,800
But what you do see is sports club coming scientist, sports club coming small.

635
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:53,530
Like there was the football club and there was other things where you see that it doesn't seem like a,

636
01:06:53,530 --> 01:06:59,660
you know, major change because, you know, I say and I keep on repeating, it's just seen as culture.

637
01:06:59,660 --> 01:07:08,150
But it changes completely the identification of the difference between a Jewish middle kid actually playing soccer with others.

638
01:07:08,150 --> 01:07:12,620
That is not, you know, that is has something to do with myself understanding.

639
01:07:12,620 --> 01:07:16,130
And as a Jew, where it's OK to to not.

640
01:07:16,130 --> 01:07:21,440
OK. But it's part of his kind of habits to actually sign up to social groups.

641
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:26,650
So this was a long and sad to say more research needed.

642
01:07:26,650 --> 01:07:32,000
So Jaco's got his hand up. Sorry, I got the question. Yes. So I started to scroll down.

643
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:38,120
This is. Sorry, guys. That's the logical Amarjit said yes, OK.

644
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:41,650
That's right. So I suppose I just have what maybe one comment that Michael.

645
01:07:41,650 --> 01:07:46,370
Probably a final comment. Now, that question. Yakup, go, please.

646
01:07:46,370 --> 01:07:55,700
Thank you. Thank you, Peter. Thank you, IRA, for this really thought-provoking to of different strands that go into an outside of

647
01:07:55,700 --> 01:08:02,840
your talk that I'm sure a book would be the necessary volume for considering this.

648
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:06,490
And I'm tempted to speculate on so many different things. For example, and this is not a question.

649
01:08:06,490 --> 01:08:11,300
It's just that it's interesting to think about this. First of all,

650
01:08:11,300 --> 01:08:23,330
this Western European Oriental is discussed from Palestine of this dreamer's it sounds very much like the Hertz's on their impressions of failure.

651
01:08:23,330 --> 01:08:25,820
Jerusalem would need Iraq to adjust and just couldn't get to it,

652
01:08:25,820 --> 01:08:32,730
couldn't wait to get out of it where it was for the real pilgrimage of the of the Kaiser.

653
01:08:32,730 --> 01:08:38,390
And it's also interesting to note the how burgeois own experiences.

654
01:08:38,390 --> 01:08:39,500
You noted that. Right.

655
01:08:39,500 --> 01:08:51,050
It's not just taking all the money and the luxuries that are promised by Thomas Cook was still selling travelling packages today,

656
01:08:51,050 --> 01:08:56,900
but but also the whole experience of visiting in order to return.

657
01:08:56,900 --> 01:09:05,420
And to compare this to to other kinds of visitations of Palestine of the time, they are obviously well, maybe not exactly the same point,

658
01:09:05,420 --> 01:09:12,350
but intent in 10 years time, 20 years times, the East Europeans would start coming allegedly to stay, most of them not.

659
01:09:12,350 --> 01:09:17,360
But those of them who stayed came to do something completely different.

660
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:22,570
And not only class wise, but ideologically speaking, actually taking over the Zionist project.

661
01:09:22,570 --> 01:09:28,680
So to think about speculation, what would have happened to design this project?

662
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:34,820
Were it not those East Europeans who took. Who was taken over the project?

663
01:09:34,820 --> 01:09:43,380
But this you are Western travellers who are looking for some excitement and some.

664
01:09:43,380 --> 01:09:52,850
And also, obviously, to compare this to Middle Eastern Jews who have been coming and going regularly as part of doing,

665
01:09:52,850 --> 01:09:55,610
you know, travelling in their own spaces.

666
01:09:55,610 --> 01:10:03,260
But that's just the comment that instead of question, I know I have two questions if you allow me, and I think we might exhaust our time together.

667
01:10:03,260 --> 01:10:07,020
The first is an obvious question that I'm sure many people are asking in the back of their mind.

668
01:10:07,020 --> 01:10:15,490
So have they met Palestinians? Have they had Arabs in. I mean, because you mentioned they met the of the Cowboys and some of the colonisers.

669
01:10:15,490 --> 01:10:22,910
But did anyone? Stop to think about the inhabitants of the land.

670
01:10:22,910 --> 01:10:27,080
And second, more specifically about Frankel.

671
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:30,940
I find it interesting that he invites the rabbi.

672
01:10:30,940 --> 01:10:35,670
B, he invites him while writing about circumcision. See, and I am doing it.

673
01:10:35,670 --> 01:10:39,440
I've read nothing. I mean, you're introducing him to me first time.

674
01:10:39,440 --> 01:10:42,020
So I don't know if I'm completely missing the point, the picture.

675
01:10:42,020 --> 01:10:51,440
But also when he writes this diary, he's complaining about it's assimilated or non observant Jews that they would run, you know?

676
01:10:51,440 --> 01:11:02,840
So it's clear that for him, this this fascination with the land has to do with a certain more traditional understanding of of Jewishness.

677
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:11,760
How did he feel with the secular dominance of listed Eastern European Zionists?

678
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:20,200
So there's nobody on the.

679
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:24,370
So let me just begin with the inhabitants of the land, as you said, the Palestinians.

680
01:11:24,370 --> 01:11:29,410
I mean, this is when you reap these, although most of the travel diaries that I've read,

681
01:11:29,410 --> 01:11:33,840
they describe to you some of the Jews that they meet as inhabitants of the land as well.

682
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,360
Like. So they don't. But of course, they distinguish Arabs.

683
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:42,450
And then they do they call them either just Jews or Palestinian Jews or something like that.

684
01:11:42,450 --> 01:11:52,660
So there's the you know, the they reckon I would not recognise they see these people even like a man like in Kloof who's been there for four years.

685
01:11:52,660 --> 01:12:02,150
You know, he's not really a part of this. And. And Professor Michael Berkovich from UCLA, UCL has written in.

686
01:12:02,150 --> 01:12:05,270
Actually one of some of his early work executives description.

687
01:12:05,270 --> 01:12:11,300
I mean, he has seen many of the different descriptions of some of the Jewish travellers before World War One,

688
01:12:11,300 --> 01:12:16,120
who there was this group of of travelled Jewish travellers who really distinguished especially.

689
01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:20,500
I think he analyses the arrival to Yaffa. So those are the Gafoor.

690
01:12:20,500 --> 01:12:25,220
There is the Orientalists where that is seeing as a arop. And then comes the colonies.

691
01:12:25,220 --> 01:12:33,200
And then there's the whole description. I think it's I mean, I think really also it's the scientist canonical work where we make sure that

692
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:37,040
there is this distinguish between the Jewish Palestine and the Palestine.

693
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:51,410
Right. And that becomes very important to see in the filth and the chaos versus the orderly road into the orderly road into into the.

694
01:12:51,410 --> 01:12:57,500
For instance, to the colonies. Right. It's being described as older and productive, the Jews.

695
01:12:57,500 --> 01:13:03,560
So that becomes one line. And this is where it's interesting to see that these pilgrims have not yet been schooled.

696
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:07,070
Right. They have not yet been schooled into seeing. No. No. You shouldn't see.

697
01:13:07,070 --> 01:13:11,690
Yeah. For as a picture of the all of all of Palestine.

698
01:13:11,690 --> 01:13:18,410
You should distinguish it. So just to say that there's a fine I have been very inspired by Professor Beck.

699
01:13:18,410 --> 01:13:25,430
Which work. And what did I wanted to learn.

700
01:13:25,430 --> 01:13:32,780
So. And what was Finckel and the secular. And I mean, he was brought up in this.

701
01:13:32,780 --> 01:13:37,820
I mean, this was not a surprise for him. The Jewish community in Copenhagen wasn't that big.

702
01:13:37,820 --> 01:13:49,520
He was actually the exception. And so he was used to in the more Scandinavian secular form, the East European scientism of a secular.

703
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:58,400
I think that's I mean, that Atum. I mean, I know there's been written a lot about the fights, but I'm actually also like both Banbridge and.

704
01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:05,690
And single. And and and Movea and Hammon's Fluke, who was also often they were writing together.

705
01:14:05,690 --> 01:14:14,100
They all were. All of them identified quite with Orthodox Judaism and ended up establishing their own site,

706
01:14:14,100 --> 01:14:20,960
then stuffing scientist organisation, which I try to reach their archives in Jerusalem.

707
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:27,590
But it has it's kind of quite chaotic. And so I haven't fully gone down that path yet.

708
01:14:27,590 --> 01:14:32,110
But there is something in that. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm giving you very a half.

709
01:14:32,110 --> 01:14:42,890
And so there. But I mean, what is so fascinating, which would let us in, all of them thinking that these keeps on seeing that he is not he's dead.

710
01:14:42,890 --> 01:14:49,670
He's experienced in Palestine and also on a travel that the distinctions at home between the religious and secular.

711
01:14:49,670 --> 01:14:54,530
It's different and it's different now because we had we are all Jews.

712
01:14:54,530 --> 01:15:01,810
There's some things in the process that makes that the religious secular divide less important.

713
01:15:01,810 --> 01:15:08,630
OK. He's seeing some elevated Jewish connectivity, which, of course, you know, Hatzolah would be happy to.

714
01:15:08,630 --> 01:15:14,220
Exactly. To you know, that is part of the. Yeah.

715
01:15:14,220 --> 01:15:20,660
But there we have more one more question. OK, I'll get that in part.

716
01:15:20,660 --> 01:15:28,070
So Anonymous says it so famously wrote that it was only by colonising Palestine that Jews could could become fully European.

717
01:15:28,070 --> 01:15:35,420
To what extent that those figures recognise themselves as colonisers. You mentioned just now that there was a reference to them as colonists.

718
01:15:35,420 --> 01:15:41,750
And obviously there was a Jewish colonial colonisation fund. How did the discourse of colonialism figure into this group's communications?

719
01:15:41,750 --> 01:15:46,220
And was there any connexion to Dutch colonialism? Oh, no.

720
01:15:46,220 --> 01:15:50,840
No connexion to Dutch colonialism. But they would definitely like that was the discussion.

721
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:58,310
I mean, if we take it completely out of a contemporary but and instead go back to the 19th century, had to like,

722
01:15:58,310 --> 01:16:04,580
yes, we want to be cologne like that would be a dream if we could, like, colonise that mean we would have power.

723
01:16:04,580 --> 01:16:17,320
That means the British would kind of have our back. That means where a bent which was like not out of, you know, obviously not out of it.

724
01:16:17,320 --> 01:16:24,140
What do you call it. Like that he didn't you know, he would love to have the power as the British colonialists,

725
01:16:24,140 --> 01:16:29,130
but he didn't want the British Jews to be seen as kind of independent unity.

726
01:16:29,130 --> 01:16:37,220
Right. That was the fear. So he was more like fully identifying with the English colonial project.

727
01:16:37,220 --> 01:16:42,830
Of course, he just didn't want these British Jews to be seen as some kind of independent.

728
01:16:42,830 --> 01:16:47,630
And that's why they went away from the language of exploration.

729
01:16:47,630 --> 01:16:51,410
Oh, expedition and all these colonial ways of life.

730
01:16:51,410 --> 01:16:55,250
Let's go out see this territory. I mean, the whole idea was a colonial idea.

731
01:16:55,250 --> 01:16:59,360
Right. Let's go and see the territory and see if we can build something.

732
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:05,710
I mean, that was the Hertel, but that's where we see Ben Twitch saying like,

733
01:17:05,710 --> 01:17:11,510
no, I think if we stop doing that, we stop being associated with like that.

734
01:17:11,510 --> 01:17:15,140
We want to distinguish ourself from the English, from the British.

735
01:17:15,140 --> 01:17:21,980
And we don't want to you know, we don't want to at this point be seen as, you know, having a political agenda of its own.

736
01:17:21,980 --> 01:17:29,120
So at this point, it was definitely seen as a, you know, a wonderful thing to be a part of the British Empire.

737
01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:35,960
And British colonialism at this point was completely accepted also by most of these Jews, normal middle class Jews.

738
01:17:35,960 --> 01:17:40,670
You know, it was Britain was part of the dream and the British Empire.

739
01:17:40,670 --> 01:17:45,560
Definitely so. Yeah. That's what I mean.

740
01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:50,930
You talked about, you know, the whole idea of process, which is is a very good case in point.

741
01:17:50,930 --> 01:17:54,270
Given that I think Zukerman. Thank you so much. I felt the need.

742
01:17:54,270 --> 01:17:58,560
Say all of your names anyway. Thank you so much for reading.

743
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:06,310
Reading, do really interesting reading. I'll just remind everybody else that next week we pick up again with the Israel Study Seminar.

744
01:18:06,310 --> 01:18:10,800
And two weeks will be the final reconsidering early Jewish Nationalist Ideology seminar.

745
01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:17,140
It will be a lot of Shapiro from the University for ungiven to coincide can embrace the applied arts.

746
01:18:17,140 --> 01:18:34,057
Sariego in Vienna. Who would be speaking on Berta Zuckerkandl and wienies nationalism and modernism.