1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:20,190 So, John, there seems to be functioning now, um, you told me over lunch that, uh, you started your career in urology by being a student. 2 00:00:20,190 --> 00:00:29,180 Um, how surgeon for, uh, cans of the Radcliffe Infirmary during the war is that? 3 00:00:29,180 --> 00:00:40,220 Uh, that's, uh, quite correct. Um, but I think before I say any more. 4 00:00:40,220 --> 00:00:54,380 I ought to and say that I've been told that I was to talk about my time in jail and so I should apologise to my distinguished colleagues, 5 00:00:54,380 --> 00:01:04,820 um, whom I do not mention, and perhaps it just as well I don't mention them because I wouldn't be able to do them justice. 6 00:01:04,820 --> 00:01:19,000 Yes. And I was a student husband, uh, a few cans, because during the war on nearly all the young doctors, 7 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:24,880 uh, were in the 40s, uh, so there were no registrars. 8 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:42,880 And the qualified housemen, uh, were divided between, uh, two wards and the students as I the students, um, uh, as I said, this harassment. 9 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:57,840 Right. And then and then and, uh and uh and after I done, uh, a job and as a house physician, 10 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:10,950 I realised that I didn't know how to examine the nervous system, which I thought would be a good idea, uh, to work for you and. 11 00:02:10,950 --> 00:02:19,790 I was quite right that I didn't know how to examine the nervous system, but I remember that. 12 00:02:19,790 --> 00:02:29,270 Um, and early on, he tore up my notes and, uh, patient and said that I ought to, uh. 13 00:02:29,270 --> 00:02:34,410 Right, right. Write them again and get them right. 14 00:02:34,410 --> 00:02:50,840 Uh, you can put an up to a large extent concerned at the time with the military hospital for, uh, head injuries, it's a huge college. 15 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:57,220 But he played some part in the ward. 16 00:02:57,220 --> 00:03:04,240 But a great deal of the work was done by Joe Pennebaker. 17 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:14,990 You can with a pupil of Harvey Cushing's, uh, Harvey Cushing in the United States, who made. 18 00:03:14,990 --> 00:03:23,130 Uh, neurosurgery, a successful business. 19 00:03:23,130 --> 00:03:28,820 Yeah, Harvey, uh, showed that. 20 00:03:28,820 --> 00:03:34,750 Your system was to be, um, very slow and meticulous. 21 00:03:34,750 --> 00:03:48,330 And you can like the other three, uh, British pupils of Harvey Cushing, um, um, and, uh, Jeff Jefferson and Dot. 22 00:03:48,330 --> 00:04:05,000 Um, yeah, you operated slowly and were meticulous, whereas Joe Pennebaker, um, was quick and meticulous. 23 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:21,240 And you can very kindly became my my medical medical adviser, um, um, uh, after I mean, that his housemen. 24 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,920 I did when I qualified, I did various types of jobs. 25 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:43,150 Um. And I worked for, uh, Russell Brand and Daglish MacAlpine, um, in London and, uh, unfertilised. 26 00:04:43,150 --> 00:04:56,770 Uh. And the end end of that time, you you say that Richard Russell, an agent and assistant. 27 00:04:56,770 --> 00:05:05,570 Uh, and why didn't Dad become a combat assistant, Richie? 28 00:05:05,570 --> 00:05:12,170 I had been a consultant in Edinburgh, but was easily, uh, we ran away. 29 00:05:12,170 --> 00:05:18,660 He tried to use up the hospital. 30 00:05:18,660 --> 00:05:28,530 So you guys knew his work. And he was happy to leave and the, um. 31 00:05:28,530 --> 00:05:37,960 Well, neurologists were, uh, dominated by, uh, by Norman not. 32 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:49,580 However, when he started this department, uh, was in the corridor outside another one. 33 00:05:49,580 --> 00:06:04,090 And there was a chair with a, uh, uh, a table with a typewriter on it and the chair for his secretary and Richard sat in a low chair. 34 00:06:04,090 --> 00:06:11,440 Um, uh, BIA's. And people walked up and down the corridor. 35 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:19,370 He had to withdraw his long legs. And I have a. 36 00:06:19,370 --> 00:06:34,550 And by this time, the head injuries hospital had moved to Wheatly or more strictly to Hilton on the sides of the president school and then. 37 00:06:34,550 --> 00:06:44,500 Uh, Richard, and Challenge, which is his number two and I. 38 00:06:44,500 --> 00:07:03,310 Oh, what that, um, um, uh, uh, the punch cards and the original notes and, um, derived from the, uh, head injuries hospital. 39 00:07:03,310 --> 00:07:13,710 She had created the punch cards. On all the patients with penetrating head injuries. 40 00:07:13,710 --> 00:07:32,650 One of his. Colleagues describe this as Russell's folly, but they they proved extremely helpful and gave rise to a lot of papers. 41 00:07:32,650 --> 00:07:40,080 Where work you put me onto? Uh, the. 42 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:46,120 Uh, um, the injuries, uh, the small injuries. 43 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:56,900 Affecting the, uh, visual radiation and the, um, visual cortex. 44 00:07:56,900 --> 00:08:03,280 I go to New Hampshire for four more years, experience in the first four. 45 00:08:03,280 --> 00:09:05,190 And, uh, emphasise. And that the visual radiation had an upper and lower part, which. 46 00:09:05,190 --> 00:09:15,910 Gordon Adams had emphasised that the visual radiation was divided into an upper and the lower part, which were quite distinct. 47 00:09:15,910 --> 00:09:21,900 But I was able to show that it was a continuous, uh, sheet. 48 00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:27,970 And I showed the visual effect, which came from. 49 00:09:27,970 --> 00:09:34,800 Uh, damage to the intermediate part and I was able to show. 50 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:48,500 No, to give more detail to the representation on the visual field, uh, in the, uh, uh, visual visual cortex. 51 00:09:48,500 --> 00:10:05,300 And. If I could interrupt you one note, my impression is that your first paper, uh, published paper was on Pheochromocytoma. 52 00:10:05,300 --> 00:10:10,610 Your your impression is quite correct, right? 53 00:10:10,610 --> 00:10:17,970 How does that come about? When I was. Before I did a. 54 00:10:17,970 --> 00:10:29,910 Um. The job, if you can, I was Professor Alliss, a student Harshman. 55 00:10:29,910 --> 00:10:37,550 And. We had a patient with a fake tamer. 56 00:10:37,550 --> 00:10:47,100 And in those days, the BMJ would publish. Uh, unusual cases as single cases. 57 00:10:47,100 --> 00:10:56,360 Uh, so with, uh, the help from Alice Stewart, who is really running provincial elections, um. 58 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:05,100 Uh, uh, uh, this patient up, uh, and he was published in the BMJ. 59 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:10,240 Right, but I interrupted you all on the visual system. 60 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:20,760 Um, also at that time or that time, you published a famous paper on No Forms. 61 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:28,110 Well. That came a bit later because the. 62 00:11:28,110 --> 00:11:36,360 Uh, head injury hospital, head injury hospital was still receiving. 63 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:52,210 Uh, new patients because of the wars in Malaya and, uh, against the mammo in Kenya. 64 00:11:52,210 --> 00:12:00,300 And some of these patients needed, uh, rehabilitation, quite long rehabilitation. 65 00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:10,910 And this was done at Headington Hill Hall, later at the home of Robert Maxwell. 66 00:12:10,910 --> 00:12:22,990 And. Amongst these patients was somebody who had, uh. 67 00:12:22,990 --> 00:12:30,360 Quite a localised, uh, penetrating injury. 68 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:36,910 And he complained. And if he'd lost his sense of direction. 69 00:12:36,910 --> 00:12:41,130 For instance, when he came out of. 70 00:12:41,130 --> 00:12:53,580 Um, in an underground station like Piccadilly, which had several exits, he had no idea in which direction you ought to go. 71 00:12:53,580 --> 00:12:59,110 Of Zengerle, um, was interested in this patient. 72 00:12:59,110 --> 00:13:08,870 And, uh, and he discovered. This man also had lost his number four on. 73 00:13:08,870 --> 00:13:16,560 No, no form. And only a limited number of people. 74 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:24,460 And I have no form. And incidentally. 75 00:13:24,460 --> 00:13:33,310 It was first described in the eighteen hundreds by the same man who described, uh, the, 76 00:13:33,310 --> 00:13:44,490 uh, you know, the, uh, fingerprints, uh, and how they were different in every person. 77 00:13:44,490 --> 00:13:55,940 A number four means. The people who happen, they can see numbers in a particular pattern. 78 00:13:55,940 --> 00:14:05,490 Uh. It may be difficult for them actually to describe the pattern. 79 00:14:05,490 --> 00:14:16,550 And it can be, um, uh, of no particular geometrical shape, but. 80 00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:34,900 Um, just at random. And you may have no phones, but the weak phones and the phone and I dare say, um, in other cities. 81 00:14:34,900 --> 00:14:50,560 And these may be. Yeah, and also random or, uh, some in some particular shape, um, like their lips. 82 00:14:50,560 --> 00:15:01,780 Anyway, this patient in lost his number home. And. 83 00:15:01,780 --> 00:15:11,330 To establish the parts of the brain, which might be a concern with this Unnim, the angle and I. 84 00:15:11,330 --> 00:15:20,640 And the patient up. And all of us will put all all the work into it. 85 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:33,120 I know all the knowledge you. But he said that when he published papers, he always insisted on the authors being in alphabetical order. 86 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:39,810 Um, an interesting feature for somebody named Z. 87 00:15:39,810 --> 00:15:54,710 And. So this was your brief ish excursion into the neurology of her cerebral function? 88 00:15:54,710 --> 00:16:03,010 Well, you see, you have the visual cortex and that is this with the visual purposes. 89 00:16:03,010 --> 00:16:09,440 Yes. Um, the no form. Yes, yes. Yes. Um, that must have fascinated Richie. 90 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,120 Uh, he was interested. Yes. Yes, yes. 91 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:24,510 Yeah. He was pleased about that. But then he turned you to the area that really made you famous. 92 00:16:24,510 --> 00:16:45,280 Um. Yes. When he started, he didn't have many facilities and none of the facilities he lacked was any beds in Oxford. 93 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:55,450 His bids were at stake, Mandaville. Which is 20 miles away and the. 94 00:16:55,450 --> 00:17:06,090 That in itself was a convenient. Also, it was the hospital where Goodman was and then. 95 00:17:06,090 --> 00:17:15,640 A dominant. And Goodman wasn't the easiest person to get on with. 96 00:17:15,640 --> 00:18:18,000 It's. But this was a minor disadvantage. 97 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:32,620 More important. With the fact that there were no facilities for, uh, proper investigation, uh, neurological patients. 98 00:18:32,620 --> 00:18:44,110 Professor, which was an official professor of medicine and has his main page in the Radcliffe Infirmary and on the College Board, but he also had. 99 00:18:44,110 --> 00:18:49,170 Umbrage at the church, a hospital in Ward 13 and 14. 100 00:18:49,170 --> 00:18:58,980 Um. And it was arranged that. Uh, uh, Richie could use, uh, four of those beds. 101 00:18:58,980 --> 00:19:11,700 If a patient who would have an planful grams and Jerry Grams or MG. 102 00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:17,130 Yeah, in case they've been forgotten and careful, careful, 103 00:19:17,130 --> 00:19:32,270 REM's involved putting a needle into the base of the skull and bubbling out and upset the ventricles and, uh, and they showed up on X-rays. 104 00:19:32,270 --> 00:19:43,620 And Grams were done by injections directly into the carotid artery. 105 00:19:43,620 --> 00:19:54,440 Now, this this was inconvenient, but reasonably satisfactory, except that I needed a six page. 106 00:19:54,440 --> 00:20:04,970 Not for. And on the rare occasions when which himself was going to pass. 107 00:20:04,970 --> 00:20:10,840 Right, right. Um, you have the Churchill. The Churchill. 108 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:21,540 There would always be panic to try and explain. We had six patients when he was only entitled to four. 109 00:20:21,540 --> 00:20:36,230 And. And she was inclined to be, uh. 110 00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:55,240 A distressed at. At the prospect of the festivities of Christmas and one Christmas, he said to me, John will never get in bed with. 111 00:20:55,240 --> 00:21:02,750 Which being interpreted. I mean, we're just about to get better, you know? 112 00:21:02,750 --> 00:21:10,490 And then we got an 13 and 14. 113 00:21:10,490 --> 00:21:19,300 In their entirety, in their entirety. Uh. 114 00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:28,600 And on another occasion, he said to me, John, we'll never get you a permanent job in Oxford. 115 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:34,910 Which also meant that I was just about to get to become a consultant. 116 00:21:34,910 --> 00:21:42,040 It's spoil my Christmas, but I'm glad I'm glad that it turned out all right. 117 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:49,300 But you knew him well by then, did you recognised that this was a good prognostic sign? 118 00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:57,470 I did not recognise it. It's not my Christmas, David. And. 119 00:21:57,470 --> 00:22:11,370 Round about this time. Yeah, um, uh, Nuffield for you was built on top of the, uh, the other other two world awards in the NFL block. 120 00:22:11,370 --> 00:22:25,130 And. I was allotted space in what was colloquially known as the neurological nassery. 121 00:22:25,130 --> 00:22:31,460 And I shared it with John Marshall, who later was a professor at Green Square. 122 00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:44,260 And with our pool, uh, the, uh, egg expert. 123 00:22:44,260 --> 00:22:52,270 Polio was rife at this time, um. 124 00:22:52,270 --> 00:23:05,680 All over Europe. This may have been because of the Americans, uh, coming over in quantity in the war. 125 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:12,080 Polio had been rife. Yeah, in America before the war. 126 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:19,000 The most celebrated patient being, uh, President Roosevelt. 127 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:26,820 And you know who got it early in life not long before he was president? 128 00:23:26,820 --> 00:23:42,170 Um. Eleven hundred patients who were infected with the virus and only one were to get symptoms. 129 00:23:42,170 --> 00:23:51,720 The other. I might go on excreting the virus for two or three weeks. 130 00:23:51,720 --> 00:24:02,420 So there was ample opportunity for people to spread, spread, spread the, uh, the virus. 131 00:24:02,420 --> 00:24:11,250 Anyway, there were. A lot lot of breaks in your. 132 00:24:11,250 --> 00:24:18,460 In the Oxford district, the paediatricians will take patients with palaeo. 133 00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:26,990 Because the disease had been known as infantile paralysis. But. 134 00:24:26,990 --> 00:24:37,440 And this time, infants were not affected at and if as young adults who are being affected. 135 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:52,010 The orthopaedic surgeon. It would take the patient to retaliate, but only when they'd cease to be infected and say after two or three weeks. 136 00:24:52,010 --> 00:24:57,910 And that was the. Respiration was affected. 137 00:24:57,910 --> 00:25:06,590 That was the time when. Uh, the patients were in greatest danger. 138 00:25:06,590 --> 00:25:18,170 These patients used to go to the infectious diseases hospital who did not have the facilities for looking after a patient with respiratory difficulty. 139 00:25:18,170 --> 00:25:24,240 So a. I decided to. 140 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:32,700 And give treatment. And to these these people who otherwise would not be treated. 141 00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:39,420 There was a there in the neighbourhood of Aylesbury and he set up. 142 00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:48,030 Uh, you need that to treat and the rest Wikipedia. 143 00:25:48,030 --> 00:26:04,830 And he treated them in tank respirators. What proportion, approximately, were requiring respiratory assistance amongst those who became symptomatic, 144 00:26:04,830 --> 00:26:16,680 amongst those who became symptomatic, when was it a big problem, a respiratory and weakness? 145 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:25,510 I don't know what what proportion it was. But. 146 00:26:25,510 --> 00:26:40,240 One of the ways in which polio. It could become localised or worse with exercise and lots of people take exercise in their legs. 147 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:53,720 So there was a great deal of polarity in, you know, um, uh, fixing primarily the legs like President Roosevelt. 148 00:26:53,720 --> 00:27:01,120 But also. It could affect any part of the body. 149 00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:11,220 So I think it's pretty parallel with. It was relatively uncommon, but because there were so many cases of polio. 150 00:27:11,220 --> 00:27:21,190 Um. And the settlement, there were quite a number of cases of polio. 151 00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:38,370 And was the task given to you to essentially take over and develop the methods of, uh, managing the respiratory failure? 152 00:27:38,370 --> 00:27:53,620 I was not concerned. And with the Al Amesbury respiratory patients who were all treated in 10 French patients, right. 153 00:27:53,620 --> 00:28:00,940 And the tankless writer. It is a box. 154 00:28:00,940 --> 00:28:14,020 And about the shape of a coffin, but with the patient's head sticking out and an airtight seal around the neck. 155 00:28:14,020 --> 00:28:22,570 And it works well in the air and in it to produce respiration. 156 00:28:22,570 --> 00:28:28,060 There was a big pump which sucked out of the respirator. 157 00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:35,180 So that, uh, atmospheric pressure, uh, pushed into the lungs. 158 00:28:35,180 --> 00:28:46,220 And then the process was reversed and the patient breathes out. And this happened at whatever time remains. 159 00:28:46,220 --> 00:28:52,100 I would I would say. The tunnel was. 160 00:28:52,100 --> 00:28:58,770 The patient who had respiratory failure. Usually, but not always. 161 00:28:58,770 --> 00:29:04,100 I definitely was following. So that. 162 00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:09,870 The saliva was touching with each breath. 163 00:29:09,870 --> 00:29:18,250 Uh, and the patients were not able to cough, so their lungs got damaged. 164 00:29:18,250 --> 00:29:30,450 Uh, and they died. Uh. 165 00:29:30,450 --> 00:29:38,980 The Dems argued that was a lack of hygiene. 166 00:29:38,980 --> 00:29:45,060 And that in Denmark was a very hygienic place. 167 00:29:45,060 --> 00:29:56,500 So when they got an outbreak of polio. That they hadn't any respirators to fall back on. 168 00:29:56,500 --> 00:30:03,770 And unless the infectious diseases, a doctor and his anaesthetise. 169 00:30:03,770 --> 00:30:17,340 Argued that a patient with respiratory failure. There's much in the same state as a patient in paralysed with care for an operation. 170 00:30:17,340 --> 00:30:22,620 So they treated that patient with rectally failure. 171 00:30:22,620 --> 00:30:29,100 But integrating them and connecting them to an understanding machine. 172 00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:36,290 And having medical students to squeeze the bag of the anaesthetic machine. 173 00:30:36,290 --> 00:30:58,000 Um. This eliminates the problem of, um, swallowing because the, uh, intercranial tubes were cuffed and, uh, sealed off the saliva from the lungs. 174 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:04,220 As soon as this paper was published, I think about nineteen fifty one. 175 00:31:04,220 --> 00:31:13,190 It was obvious that this was the way to go. Um. 176 00:31:13,190 --> 00:31:23,330 But we couldn't have a medical student, so we needed a machine to do the same work. 177 00:31:23,330 --> 00:31:37,160 It gets used in all sorts of, uh, uh, uh, independent means, had been making apparatus, uh, on demand for the physiologies, 178 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:47,150 uh, since the middle of the war, and Ritchie asked him to devise and, uh, um, uh, respirator. 179 00:31:47,150 --> 00:31:59,110 We should take the place of the medical student. It just went through, um, a number of different phases. 180 00:31:59,110 --> 00:32:04,160 But ultimately became a commercial machine. 181 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,490 And then there's the East Rateliff, uh, brainteaser. 182 00:32:09,490 --> 00:32:32,960 And this. Continued to sell well until, uh, electronics, uh, made, uh, the control of respecters, uh, so much, uh, but better, uh, and easier. 183 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:39,610 Blaming dry up into. Uh. 184 00:32:39,610 --> 00:32:53,150 The language. Uh, uh, can cause them secretions to form across, um, which can't be sacked out again. 185 00:32:53,150 --> 00:33:05,330 Yeah, so John Marshall and I. Made a humidifier, a hot water humidifier. 186 00:33:05,330 --> 00:33:18,390 In the. Uh, it was blowing blown into the lungs by the respirator and pass over this side so that only, 187 00:33:18,390 --> 00:33:32,770 uh, w w, uh, went in and this was incorporated, incorporated in the Streetlife, uh, respirator. 188 00:33:32,770 --> 00:33:40,130 Yeah. And then having. 189 00:33:40,130 --> 00:33:52,370 Developed this method of, uh, maintaining respiration and polio, you then, I think, moved on to. 190 00:33:52,370 --> 00:34:00,280 But quite a range of neurological conditions. Uh, yes, we did. 191 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:06,390 And. Now, the year says the success of this. 192 00:34:06,390 --> 00:34:17,660 No, it was a huge help because Richie went to Professor Macintosh of the Department of Anaesthetics. 193 00:34:17,660 --> 00:34:22,610 And Arthur. And anaesthetise to. 194 00:34:22,610 --> 00:34:32,380 Um. And you may be allotted to and the respiration is. 195 00:34:32,380 --> 00:34:42,020 Yeah, this is Alex Cramton Smith. Who has an excellent anaesthetise? 196 00:34:42,020 --> 00:34:57,700 And particularly come under stress. And it was it was also by chance, and he and I lived in different parts of the same house. 197 00:34:57,700 --> 00:35:07,740 He said that we could discuss together the problems which seemed so difficult at the time and so straightforward now. 198 00:35:07,740 --> 00:35:20,530 And. Polio is in everybody's mind. 199 00:35:20,530 --> 00:35:32,830 And therefore, there was a lot of charitable money going towards it and the the polio fund was founded. 200 00:35:32,830 --> 00:35:40,440 Well, uh, very active. Uh, uh, chief, the chief executive. 201 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:48,720 The bailout fund built opposite, what, 13 of a restoration unit? 202 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:54,150 Uh. Which provided for. 203 00:35:54,150 --> 00:36:01,470 Uh, uh, uh, to a three to bed ward. 204 00:36:01,470 --> 00:36:15,710 And, uh. Not only to beat it, but big enough, you have, uh, to put to rest rotation, just unusual offices. 205 00:36:15,710 --> 00:36:22,760 And it also builds the opposite, what, 14? Uh uh. 206 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:43,240 And, uh, officers, uh, offices, uh, and, uh, laboratory. 207 00:36:43,240 --> 00:37:00,550 The patients who were, um, intubated had more irritation, endotracheal tube, and then they than the modern ones. 208 00:37:00,550 --> 00:37:06,850 And if they do remain in place in the larynx, the larynx was damaged. 209 00:37:06,850 --> 00:37:18,570 So tracheotomy. Yeah, in trying to make sure we're done so that the larynx was not damaged. 210 00:37:18,570 --> 00:37:25,300 At first, we cut down the tubes. But. 211 00:37:25,300 --> 00:37:32,630 And. And. And Smith and I. 212 00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:48,700 Uh, uh, introduced, and then a tracheotomy to a cough cough to try a tracheotomy to, um, with the right angle, which are much more convenient. 213 00:37:48,700 --> 00:38:00,980 He's also enabled. The pipe from the respirator had to be connected, um, by, uh. 214 00:38:00,980 --> 00:38:05,810 A magnet, which is a much better, safer. 215 00:38:05,810 --> 00:38:16,730 It couldn't, of course, be screwed on because the Nazis used to ask questions out of the church whenever necessary. 216 00:38:16,730 --> 00:38:32,450 Uh. As you were saying, John, well, the results from. 217 00:38:32,450 --> 00:38:51,960 Treating that makes. And the best result was the man who continued to be continued as a down there on his colleagues, gave him a dance Aastrom. 218 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:59,780 That in most of the patients. There was considerable disability. 219 00:38:59,780 --> 00:39:07,030 And quite a number of them. They remain paralysed from the neck down. 220 00:39:07,030 --> 00:39:15,600 And they returned home and looked after my devoted relatives, all carried. 221 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:30,980 And some of them made quite a life of it. But I remember one who refused to have a magnet, a magnetic connexion to his tracheostomy tube. 222 00:39:30,980 --> 00:39:39,700 He tried to make. Uh, what had been a promising career. 223 00:39:39,700 --> 00:39:46,530 But, uh, it was not successful in that. And his. 224 00:39:46,530 --> 00:39:54,030 Uh, aspirator became disconnected. And he died. 225 00:39:54,030 --> 00:40:05,910 His sister just, uh, uh, told me that he did not want to leave, and I imagine that, gee, wish he would have disconnected it. 226 00:40:05,910 --> 00:40:12,270 Um. But we also had an. 227 00:40:12,270 --> 00:40:20,370 The other patients who are great deal. And that more, according to St. 228 00:40:20,370 --> 00:40:30,080 These included early on. And patient and patient Galen Badday syndrome. 229 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:39,450 The first one we had. And, uh, w. 230 00:40:39,450 --> 00:40:46,340 It could only communicate by moving her eyes. And. 231 00:40:46,340 --> 00:42:32,640 Up for years and sideways for No. I grew up. 232 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:45,930 Uh, four years inside biosphere, no, but yet after she was discharged, she was playing in a tennis tournament in Oxford. 233 00:42:45,930 --> 00:42:56,720 It must've been, uh, very exciting moment when you, uh, took to extending the diagnosis that you were treating. 234 00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:05,380 It certainly was. In fact, she referred to it as a case of Periyar. 235 00:43:05,380 --> 00:43:12,550 Well, that was also the difficult diagnosis, wasn't it, depended on whether there was sensory abnormality or not? 236 00:43:12,550 --> 00:43:17,870 Absolutely right. Yes, yes. And in fact. 237 00:43:17,870 --> 00:43:22,370 Polio never or hardly ever affects the face. 238 00:43:22,370 --> 00:43:31,870 Where is it? It was quite a notable feature of gay marriage in the. 239 00:43:31,870 --> 00:43:38,830 But, uh. This was not not, uh. 240 00:43:38,830 --> 00:43:48,280 Not widely appreciated as it was when, uh, the differential diagnosis became important. 241 00:43:48,280 --> 00:44:01,710 Yeah. Well, then you moved or you extended, I shouldn't say move, you extend it to my senior Gravas to terseness. 242 00:44:01,710 --> 00:44:06,780 Yes. And to probably various other things as well. 243 00:44:06,780 --> 00:44:14,610 Well, myasthenia gravis. And we could keep them alive, but of course, we. 244 00:44:14,610 --> 00:44:19,740 Uh, just try and make them stronger. And we tried various things. 245 00:44:19,740 --> 00:44:23,470 We are modest, says. 246 00:44:23,470 --> 00:44:39,390 The stakes now seem please, please let me bother with them, because and when I retired, they very kindly, um, gave me a living, uh. 247 00:44:39,390 --> 00:44:58,220 And he also treated tetanus. And I found a lot of adults were involved in the war and my, um, inoculated against tetanus, 248 00:44:58,220 --> 00:45:09,850 but they a bit too early to be involved in the war and those who are young who were not immunised. 249 00:45:09,850 --> 00:45:19,130 So are you still seeing it? I remember one patient who. 250 00:45:19,130 --> 00:45:26,410 It was digging her kitchen garden and stuck before through her foot. 251 00:45:26,410 --> 00:45:31,420 And she said it yourself, I must get to and I get it it. 252 00:45:31,420 --> 00:45:43,310 And she went to a neighbour. His professional life involved worked with the state in this business and he said you might get tetanus. 253 00:45:43,310 --> 00:45:51,030 But they did nothing to prevent her getting tetanus. And she did get to finish. 254 00:45:51,030 --> 00:46:02,340 And she said to me. I've seen people die of tetanus in the First World War when I was a kid, and it's a terrible death. 255 00:46:02,340 --> 00:46:08,040 And don't prolong things. Yeah, yeah, so what? 256 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:14,940 Why don't I get on that? But I persuaded her to be bebetter. 257 00:46:14,940 --> 00:46:21,780 And if you let her not let her live, so so we treated her. 258 00:46:21,780 --> 00:46:27,710 And the way that we treated this with some. 259 00:46:27,710 --> 00:46:33,940 And Bikila Yagman. Uh, so they're paralysed. 260 00:46:33,940 --> 00:46:41,750 And the spouses spasms, uh, se. 261 00:46:41,750 --> 00:46:49,920 Writing in Kira, reporting on the treatment sheet the same day, the same debate on. 262 00:46:49,920 --> 00:47:05,550 But the. The only sensible way would feel are to allow the Nazis to give me more whenever movement movement started. 263 00:47:05,550 --> 00:47:17,420 And at the same time as, uh, developing the treatment in the sense of extending, um. 264 00:47:17,420 --> 00:47:30,230 Positive pressure, respiration to more diseases, you were also developing research into the nose system, I imagine, 265 00:47:30,230 --> 00:47:41,510 because, uh, the, uh, autonomic complications of, uh, both the disease process and perhaps also the method of treatment. 266 00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:52,160 Yes, that's absolutely true. But before I mentioned that. 267 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:57,220 Perhaps I should say. That. 268 00:47:57,220 --> 00:48:10,790 Uh, this time, the BBC started a programme called Your Life in their Hands and the kind of treatments that went on in hospitals. 269 00:48:10,790 --> 00:48:25,880 And the first of these programmes. Um, it was from the Ressurection and it was a, um and, um. 270 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:41,260 Uh. I showed up at my part of the programme, which to show the patients and describe what I know now that I've been treated, 271 00:48:41,260 --> 00:48:48,170 and this is quite easy to do because there have been various, uh, medical visits before. 272 00:48:48,170 --> 00:48:54,210 Uh, and, um, I had given that description. 273 00:48:54,210 --> 00:49:04,430 Yeah, yeah, uh, plenty of times. The programme went out on a Wednesday evening, uh, live. 274 00:49:04,430 --> 00:49:16,360 And. Uh, the BMJ went to press on Wednesday morning. 275 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:25,550 And in spite of that, they had no editorial. About the programme. 276 00:49:25,550 --> 00:49:31,290 Which they did not approve. On the ground. 277 00:49:31,290 --> 00:49:39,420 Uh. The patient couldn't possibly possibly understand it. 278 00:49:39,420 --> 00:49:50,470 And that. Uh, there is a grave risk that patients, uh, might start making decisions for themselves. 279 00:49:50,470 --> 00:49:56,290 This gave rise to a lively correspondence which gave welcomed publication. 280 00:49:56,290 --> 00:50:09,220 Um, yeah. Uh uh uh uh, which I welcome leaves, um, promoted interest in the programme. 281 00:50:09,220 --> 00:50:18,920 Oh, uh, yes. Uh, John, you were saying that. 282 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:24,980 And then we got interested in the autonomic. 283 00:50:24,980 --> 00:50:39,030 And the reason for this was that both the gay marriage and the tetanus patients had trouble with their blood pressure or. 284 00:50:39,030 --> 00:50:46,690 And when we first took the patience of our first very patient. 285 00:50:46,690 --> 00:51:00,380 In, uh, to me, where they took the Patriots test on gay marriage, a patient in D.C. fixed up. 286 00:51:00,380 --> 00:51:10,190 Uh, respirator. We were horrified that she was unconscious. 287 00:51:10,190 --> 00:51:16,810 The parents fortune, they thought that actually if you underestimated unconscious. 288 00:51:16,810 --> 00:51:37,460 But what had happened was that her blood pressure had vanished. And we tip that the head of the bed down and, uh, that visual imagery recovered. 289 00:51:37,460 --> 00:51:43,860 And this sort of thing was a feature of the gay marriage. 290 00:51:43,860 --> 00:51:49,450 The people, on the other hand, had exactly the opposite problem. 291 00:51:49,450 --> 00:51:59,730 Their blood pressure went into this guy's. Even on one occasion, as high as two hundred and forty, one hundred and forty. 292 00:51:59,730 --> 00:52:09,610 And they were not compatible with life for too long. 293 00:52:09,610 --> 00:52:20,760 Uh. And ideological colleagues couldn't help as to the nature of this problem or what you might do about it. 294 00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:31,500 Sir. So with the help of Geoffrey George, you I know a new college. 295 00:52:31,500 --> 00:52:47,470 We started some investigations. We did the, uh, continuous records of the blood pressure from an arterial cannula. 296 00:52:47,470 --> 00:52:54,990 And. You also had, um, intervenors, cannulate. 297 00:52:54,990 --> 00:53:13,950 To measure the pressures and flows. We also, uh, tested, sweating. 298 00:53:13,950 --> 00:53:26,490 And and with this apparatus. We applied various, uh, stresses to the. 299 00:53:26,490 --> 00:53:36,490 Uh, circulatory system. And so whether the responses were normal. 300 00:53:36,490 --> 00:53:52,290 In the game game barrier system. In patients who have circulatory system, uh, responses were not normal. 301 00:53:52,290 --> 00:54:06,820 And some of them still retain the power to sweat, indicating that the, um, sympathetic system was intact or generate more or less intact. 302 00:54:06,820 --> 00:54:23,440 And them probably the interruption of the secretary's reflexes was because they lost the afferent part of the. 303 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:29,420 Particularly. The input from the scientists. 304 00:54:29,420 --> 00:54:35,850 And no doubt the. Um. 305 00:54:35,850 --> 00:54:43,670 Uh, and then I never saw them naked and I see enough to the periphery. 306 00:54:43,670 --> 00:54:52,880 Uh uh, well, uh. But then you were joined by various research assistant. 307 00:54:52,880 --> 00:55:00,710 So we went through some of who went on to notable careers. 308 00:55:00,710 --> 00:55:08,600 Yes. But we. 309 00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:18,200 And the. There are other things to do with the Tiflis. 310 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:26,470 Tetanus is due to. Well, and the normal Lemonier and. 311 00:55:26,470 --> 00:55:31,930 Is controlled in partly by acceptation. 312 00:55:31,930 --> 00:55:43,900 And partly by an inhibition, and the tetanus toxin inhibits inhibition, leaving the excitation. 313 00:55:43,900 --> 00:55:53,130 Uh, um, uh, I'm touched and this produces muscle spasm. 314 00:55:53,130 --> 00:56:06,370 And we showed that. The same process affects the sympathetic system or can affect this sympathetic system. 315 00:56:06,370 --> 00:56:16,720 So that. And there's intense, very basic construction and the especially the blood pressure at. 316 00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:24,840 And at the same time. There's intense sweating. 317 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:35,980 No. And the fact that there were intense sweating, it was important because. 318 00:56:35,980 --> 00:56:41,110 We were getting into a mess of a fluid balance. 319 00:56:41,110 --> 00:56:48,050 And this because. We regarded an intangible loss. 320 00:56:48,050 --> 00:56:55,710 As much the same as in most patient, when, in fact it was huge. 321 00:56:55,710 --> 00:57:04,480 Unfortunately, when we discovered what was going on in the tetanus patients. 322 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:16,550 Uh, drugs were coming on the market, which enabled us, uh, to treat them. 323 00:57:16,550 --> 00:57:22,110 They would have been beta blockers or beta blockers. 324 00:57:22,110 --> 00:57:31,950 Yes, yes, yes. We had some other. 325 00:57:31,950 --> 00:57:34,820 And we could look at the autonomic. 326 00:57:34,820 --> 00:57:53,450 And people with other circulatory failures know came our way, including people with orthostatic hypotension whenever they showed up and they fainted. 327 00:57:53,450 --> 00:58:03,440 Uh. But we weren't successful in keeping these people alive. 328 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:09,510 And David Oppenheimer, I looked at that pathology. 329 00:58:09,510 --> 00:58:16,910 And so that the. Um. 330 00:58:16,910 --> 00:58:25,690 Pregaming Glienicke sympathetic fire, but, yeah, pretty similar sympathetic nerve cells. 331 00:58:25,690 --> 00:58:33,680 Up in the spinal cord. And disappeared. 332 00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:46,900 And there were also troubled. Uh, uh, LTA elsewhere in the central nervous system, particularly the cerebellar connexions. 333 00:58:46,900 --> 00:59:00,530 And he and the rest of us described this as multiple, multiple system disease. 334 00:59:00,530 --> 00:59:05,860 There's also. Something rather similar. 335 00:59:05,860 --> 00:59:16,840 Um, uh, clinical presentation, which, uh, Rajeevan this later described as a progressive autonomic. 336 00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:29,750 Uh, Opah. Um. 337 00:59:29,750 --> 00:59:36,940 And then we looked at spinal patients with spinal cord disease. 338 00:59:36,940 --> 00:59:46,590 To see how many autonomic reflexes I persisted in the isolated spinal cord. 339 00:59:46,590 --> 00:59:58,300 Uh. And in this would be people with spinal cord injury, people with spinal cord transactions. 340 00:59:58,300 --> 01:00:05,410 Yes. And with his continued. 341 01:00:05,410 --> 01:00:14,920 We would be concerned to a man who had a, uh, it's a bank transaction. 342 01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:24,470 We applied. Uh, icepacks to his limits in these strong. 343 01:00:24,470 --> 01:00:32,530 And his central temperature was quite considerably below normal. 344 01:00:32,530 --> 01:00:42,320 And he said he didn't feel at all called. But he knew he must be careful because his teeth were chattering. 345 01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:49,330 So this indicates that the sensation of Carol, depending on your skin temperature. 346 01:00:49,330 --> 01:01:08,420 Whereas, you know, shrivelling depend on your central temperature. And I had an interesting interlude. 347 01:01:08,420 --> 01:01:17,540 Went on this mission, I went to Morocco. Uh. 348 01:01:17,540 --> 01:01:23,410 There had been an outbreak of paralysis. 349 01:01:23,410 --> 01:01:29,970 Uh, and in Morocco. At first. 350 01:01:29,970 --> 01:01:38,030 A few. A bit later. Up to several hundred a day. 351 01:01:38,030 --> 01:01:46,930 Patients becoming paralysed. So the. 352 01:01:46,930 --> 01:01:55,150 And I couldn't walk. And this was happening. 353 01:01:55,150 --> 01:02:02,590 In a good deal of northern Morocco, but particularly in Magnis. 354 01:02:02,590 --> 01:02:13,840 I say, what happened? This was just before the feast of the feast of the birth of the primate group. 355 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:23,910 And. This was celebrated by the king and therefore by the court. 356 01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:33,330 Giving. Through one of the four capital cities. And it was the turn of magnet that year. 357 01:02:33,330 --> 01:02:40,630 So. It threatened. 358 01:02:40,630 --> 01:02:46,610 Um, uh, well, he cultivated an anxiety. 359 01:02:46,610 --> 01:02:51,180 And the president said that it was all under control. 360 01:02:51,180 --> 01:03:02,270 They were taking the necessary measures. But when asked for the necessary measures where they said they didn't know. 361 01:03:02,270 --> 01:03:11,030 So they appealed to the United Nations, they couldn't get they couldn't appeal to France because France and just just, 362 01:03:11,030 --> 01:03:19,740 uh, free and free Morocco, so they went to the United Nations and said, please send us some help. 363 01:03:19,740 --> 01:03:32,280 We know that this is not a. So as Richie was an expert on earlier, he was asked for help and he sent. 364 01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:40,810 On me. Yeah, and, um. 365 01:03:40,810 --> 01:03:48,960 Indirectly, it became obvious that wasn't an infection and there was suspicion about. 366 01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:56,200 Uh, the cooking oil. And we came back with a larger sample of. 367 01:03:56,200 --> 01:04:05,030 Some of which were really very, very strange, looking at one of them being bright green was. 368 01:04:05,030 --> 01:04:11,490 And we send them to the. A local. Uh. 369 01:04:11,490 --> 01:04:17,070 Uh, yes, uh, chemical agency. 370 01:04:17,070 --> 01:04:26,680 Who didn't did nothing, not after a fortnight said that he was too young, long in the tooth to examine that side. 371 01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:32,220 Say, 20, 30. But, Fortunata. 372 01:04:32,220 --> 01:04:36,940 On his brother was chairman of Shell. 373 01:04:36,940 --> 01:04:43,110 And so he said she sent the samples. 374 01:04:43,110 --> 01:04:55,530 To the. Uh. And, uh, uh, no, uh, laboratories, I think, in North Wales. 375 01:04:55,530 --> 01:05:05,880 Who said that? They had applied various tests and including the particularly sensitive one, you're spending it. 376 01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:12,850 And. I thought and confirmed can chemically. 377 01:05:12,850 --> 01:05:18,480 The resident. A particular sort of oil and No. 378 01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:27,630 One oh nine seven six or something similar. And this was a very expensive oil. 379 01:05:27,630 --> 01:05:34,470 Which had been made. Four jet engines. 380 01:05:34,470 --> 01:05:46,070 And it turned out. That the Americans had an airbase in Morocco, which for political reasons, they were closing down. 381 01:05:46,070 --> 01:05:50,790 And they were selling off the oil. 382 01:05:50,790 --> 01:05:59,980 I wish I had on the base. Uh, as a lubricant, no. 383 01:05:59,980 --> 01:06:05,050 Um. They didn't take it away because. 384 01:06:05,050 --> 01:06:13,020 The new aeroplanes have new engines and use a new sort of oil. 385 01:06:13,020 --> 01:06:21,340 So. A large quantity of this oil came on the market. 386 01:06:21,340 --> 01:06:31,010 That by the time you lubricated all the all the bicycle's in Morocco, you're still left with a lot of oil over. 387 01:06:31,010 --> 01:06:40,240 So it was put on the market as a cooking oil, but unfortunately it contained also traditional phosphate. 388 01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:54,260 Which was put in because it will stand the great temperatures in, uh, jet jet engine. 389 01:06:54,260 --> 01:07:01,570 But he was also known for an outbreak in the. 1920S. 390 01:07:01,570 --> 01:07:10,120 To, of course. Um, paralysis in the United States. 391 01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:25,400 It had in the time of prohibition. And it being put into this, uh, something called Ginger Jake, which people drank, uh, 392 01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:32,560 in the hope that it would be a substitute for alcohol during a particularly bad choice. 393 01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:39,740 Because it doesn't have a taste and it is not easy for. 394 01:07:39,740 --> 01:07:52,880 But anyway, it does cause paralysis. One of the people who the people in Morocco say they were. 395 01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:59,210 Julie. Uh, approach to, uh, to justice. 396 01:07:59,210 --> 01:08:06,450 And condemned to death. If a damaging the population in a big way. 397 01:08:06,450 --> 01:08:16,480 And then that sentence was commuted. However, those who still had the oil. 398 01:08:16,480 --> 01:08:25,220 I wanted to make some money, but I'd say it's ended up to the north of the country and started selling at the. 399 01:08:25,220 --> 01:08:31,950 Well, there was another outbreak of paralysis. Surrenders. 400 01:08:31,950 --> 01:08:43,980 And how long did you spend in Morocco? Um, on this project in the. 401 01:08:43,980 --> 01:08:57,500 Uh, as long as it took and I think it took about a week, a week or so, uh, tomorrow, it's incredible to practise the result of being there for a week. 402 01:08:57,500 --> 01:09:01,550 Uh, well, uh, people were helpful. 403 01:09:01,550 --> 01:09:12,010 Well, that's, uh. But, uh, I mean, practically everything you would like to mention, uh, had been suggested. 404 01:09:12,010 --> 01:09:25,400 Uh uh, Joan, if I could just ask you, you have this you, uh, you set up a system for, um, 405 01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:35,450 treating people with neurological diseases that, uh, uh, involved, um, respiratory embarrassment. 406 01:09:35,450 --> 01:09:45,230 So, um, you, uh, set up a system for, uh, investigation of the autonomic nervous system. 407 01:09:45,230 --> 01:09:53,270 Basically, I know that you, uh, published, uh, something in the region of, uh, a hundred, 408 01:09:53,270 --> 01:10:07,430 uh, um, the same time as, you know, working, uh, busy general neurologists, uh, and also. 409 01:10:07,430 --> 01:10:19,570 But also in Northampton. Yes. Yes. How did you, uh, successfully combine all of this new Congress? 410 01:10:19,570 --> 01:10:30,340 I that one had to do? Uh uh, well, if you send me a refund to do anything. 411 01:10:30,340 --> 01:10:45,960 But, uh, you were mentioning earlier that we had a lot of, uh, taxation, uh, able students who did a huge amount of the work. 412 01:10:45,960 --> 01:11:09,140 And. And one of them was a little lady who was that a AP a lot of years who returned to his native South Africa where he worked on hypertension, 413 01:11:09,140 --> 01:11:24,630 uh, and cardiology. And he's recently been given an award for lifetime work on cardiology, 414 01:11:24,630 --> 01:11:37,570 which attracted a lot of attention not only in medicine, but, uh, also amongst the general public. 415 01:11:37,570 --> 01:12:05,140 I know that as a result, or maybe not. And I would also be pleased that the. 416 01:12:05,140 --> 01:12:12,910 Who became professor of physiology in Edinburgh. 417 01:12:12,910 --> 01:12:22,240 But I'm sorry to say that he died and there was Ralph Johnson. 418 01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:29,230 With whom I probably could them in quite a lot of papers, 419 01:12:29,230 --> 01:12:42,460 and he went down to Glasgow and then he was a professor at Wellington University and then he was a professor at Oxford. 420 01:12:42,460 --> 01:12:55,180 Yeah, and he sadly died for a blistering witch and no good reason to introduce me to his garden. 421 01:12:55,180 --> 01:13:04,710 And you published a book which I published by the Disorder on your system. 422 01:13:04,710 --> 01:13:13,580 Uh. And then there's a Christmas at. 423 01:13:13,580 --> 01:13:28,090 From India. And he did a lot of work, particularly on the spinal cord injuries and some of that back then, so Mandaville. 424 01:13:28,090 --> 01:13:45,950 Um. And he said. Pressure in London at Madison and the Freedom Square. 425 01:13:45,950 --> 01:13:50,480 And finally, when I was 60, 426 01:13:50,480 --> 01:14:09,720 all that about the method of examining the system was changing from measuring vascular pressures and play to measuring chemistry and in the blood, 427 01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:19,180 which we were setting up an entirely different sort of laboratory. 428 01:14:19,180 --> 01:14:26,590 I would be far more difficult to understand. Uh. 429 01:14:26,590 --> 01:14:32,090 I finished my time on the Council of the College of Physicians. 430 01:14:32,090 --> 01:14:43,880 Um. And the Energy Department. 431 01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:50,420 We're going to move fairly soon to the John John, uh, 432 01:14:50,420 --> 01:15:06,620 Radcliffe and the restoration unit would be amalgamated with the intensive care unit very sensibly, but I would not I would no longer be involved. 433 01:15:06,620 --> 01:15:09,860 Well, under attack. 434 01:15:09,860 --> 01:15:23,870 Well, I think I think after that, you deserve to be able to move to the other things that you enjoy with some of the substance of this. 435 01:15:23,870 --> 01:15:32,320 But really, what's selling them? Oh, yes. Yes. I wouldn't say that I love it. 436 01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:37,950 Yeah, that was great fun. And then. 437 01:15:37,950 --> 01:15:51,790 When we ran out of new places to sail to there, we'd been to Scotland and Ireland and Russia and Denmark. 438 01:15:51,790 --> 01:15:58,350 Uh, uh, uh. And finally, finally to East Anglia. 439 01:15:58,350 --> 01:16:13,560 And when we'd done all that and were beginning to feel a bit old for sailing, um, we took the bird watching, but. 440 01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:20,720 We were, uh, to to, uh, to get any good at. 441 01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:28,190 It's best to start when you are about 12 bird watching, bird watching pretty well. 442 01:16:28,190 --> 01:16:38,950 We were never twitchers, twitchers. Yeah, we'll drive one hundred miles to see a bad road, 443 01:16:38,950 --> 01:16:49,920 whereas we probably wouldn't have driven more than five miles to see a but we didn't go to and then, uh, Lattman to see a bag. 444 01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:57,250 Yeah, that's not a very long journey, but it was so much fun. So it was there when you got there. 445 01:16:57,250 --> 01:17:02,090 Yes. Yes. No, you said yes, of course. 446 01:17:02,090 --> 01:17:07,100 Did you also served with Alex Smith? Because, uh, right. 447 01:17:07,100 --> 01:17:12,550 He was a sailor. Too young, too much. 448 01:17:12,550 --> 01:17:19,550 But when I was up there, it was based in port. His words. 449 01:17:19,550 --> 01:17:26,990 He took his through the Mediterranean, through and through by the French French canals, 450 01:17:26,990 --> 01:17:33,660 and he used to invite us down for a couple of weeks every year. 451 01:17:33,660 --> 01:17:41,520 And he occasionally crewed for us. We had the best of both the north and the south. 452 01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:48,180 So you sailed a lot on your own. But but you settled in in the Mediterranean. 453 01:17:48,180 --> 01:17:55,190 Yes, on. Alex Crompton says yes, but he served with you and the North Sea. 454 01:17:55,190 --> 01:18:01,950 Yeah, well, we like to actually act in the sea. 455 01:18:01,950 --> 01:18:06,270 Yes. Yes. You going to go to work? 456 01:18:06,270 --> 01:18:17,860 Cause, uh, we were on our way and, uh, we were on our way to Scotland. 457 01:18:17,860 --> 01:18:27,430 What's fascinating, John, I thought I knew quite of I thought I knew, um, for the moment of the things that you had done, 458 01:18:27,430 --> 01:18:34,640 um, was quite clear from what you been say in the, uh, last hour and half or hour. 459 01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:41,590 But no one is about. But I can assure you now. 460 01:18:41,590 --> 01:18:49,800 And how could you. Well, I, uh, I should have, uh, because, uh, you're one of my former bosses, of course. 461 01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:59,360 Well, yes. Yes. And, um, so that's I about, um, that, uh, you should have. 462 01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:11,691 How could love this. I couldn't. Now one of the things that you, uh, you said, you know, one of the things I was surprised how well-informed you were.