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Right, so, um, so what I've done with the book is for each person, I've done sort of biographical details,

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and then I try to select an area which I think would be a particular interest to Oxford.

3
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And so I sort of feel happy to talk about the Institute of Molecular Medicine, that,

4
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first of all, sort of what made you interested in haematology or pure chance, really?

5
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I had to I was one of the last to do national service after the, um, uh,

6
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they used to let doctors finish the clinical training and then do their national service.

7
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And for some reason, I think they lost my address.

8
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So I didn't even get the usual call about doing the house job.

9
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And so I thought, well.

10
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A bit pompous to remind them, so I took charge of cleaning house office a job in Liverpool and decided to have the membership.

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They then did catch up with me during and after about six months, and they said I could have one go at the membership and just through in the home.

12
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And we got the membership on the way to being in their there.

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And then I volunteered to do my national service in the UK because I'm terrified of flying and insects and snakes.

14
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And so they sent me to Singapore, typical army,

15
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because that had no experience in paediatrics and they were in deep trouble and this huge paediatric ward in the military

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hospital and looked after the kids of diverse Commonwealth forces and the Gurkhas and all that the war was going on in Malaysia.

17
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So I know that it wasn't just me who got to the children's ward for the first year and said,

18
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I'm one of the I grouped into a child who is what turned out to be thalassaemia after me.

19
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And so I really switched on an interest in genetics and blood disease.

20
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So I went off and got training and I was straight after the.

21
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I kept pushing general medicine all these miles between the states I went to, Johns Hopkins and Liverpool had a connexion because Cyril Clark,

22
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who is the professor of medicine and one of the first things after the setting up to realise

23
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that genetically he went into genetics because he was healthy breeding butterflies,

24
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and then said that the genetics and started a kind of a partnership with Johns Hopkins would take the famous German guy,

25
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got Hopkins and one of the founders of medical genetics. So I went I went over to Hopkins and spent four years,

26
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the one couple years in genetics and a couple of years I was born in haematology and was also a part time appointment in biophysics.

27
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And they were trying to learn some protein chemistry and some.

28
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What do you think of Johns Hopkins? I mean, the kids my age, I think he was one of the founders of the Johns Hopkins.

29
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Yeah, um, well, Hopkins was, of course, the first modern medical school.

30
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So it was the model that Flexner faced with all these reforms of the medical state,

31
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um, largely because I think the founder, um, had spent time in Germany.

32
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They had already got these kind of strong patients based in medical education and training.

33
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And it was in the late 50s, early 60s.

34
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It was, um, it was very good.

35
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Um, it was a bit like Oxford, extremely self-satisfied.

36
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And it's a really good looking and probably at that time, not as great as it had been.

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They had these great figures like Blakelock in charge of the first kind of heart operation,

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congenital heart technicians and that kind of thing, and then knows about himself and the founders of those early three big names in America.

39
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But, um, and then it had this ring back in the 60s.

40
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I think it's probably one of the top medical schools in the States.

41
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And, you know, I was and I'm on the external review board for Harvard Medical School, and I was there last week reviewing them and.

42
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A couple of people from Hopkins were there. I think it's going very strong.

43
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But it was pretty much in the 60s, early 60s,

44
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a funny mixture of chemical and science and various young and being rather overt, kind of rather overstating it.

45
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So it's kind of the level of research and clinical teaching was actually as well.

46
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The, um, the best clinical teachers were the guys who came in at gun rights in the hospital.

47
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They were in private. She wanted to teach.

48
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And but, um, the kind of students, you know, the clinical the research that's dropping them, you've got a quick rejuvenation.

49
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In the late 60s, when I was going to ask you, who is your most memorable patient?

50
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Would it be that thalassaemia that you.

51
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We knew that there was going to be no facilities for. Transfusion and that she was going to survive very long and then they had this wonderful

52
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picture of the Lady Mountbatten with their own lady back in State of the Union.

53
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So roadmap. Wonderful, wonderful. This picture was taken by local press photographer.

54
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And I'm sure it was the last photograph of my wife.

55
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We had a local Indian artist to make a big drawing on the ground.

56
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What I learnt was a story of disappeared in the press many years later, completely wrong.

57
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Know all about this girl with leukaemia. And so I wrote the story and then read a very nice letter back.

58
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That was just before I already blew him up. But the more I got there, they sent me a copy of the picture.

59
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Recently, I was writing a small history of the thalassaemia and beautiful picture.

60
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So I suppose she was the patient that started me off that research.

61
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Of all the things you've done in your career, what are you most proud of?

62
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I know this place, perhaps this place.

63
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Um, yeah, I think this is going quite well. The.

64
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Probably this place and the the road we've done in lots of years in setting up all these partnerships in the developing country and my party,

65
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I mean, in my own mind, when we started these partnerships in nineteen seventy nine, which leads to go to places like China and India,

66
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I think I think that is a successful model in an economic way to help the developing countries right now.

67
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So something like that. And then.

68
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Oh yes. I was going to ask you about the taste, but let's that's how did that come about when I came about?

69
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That gives you a vivid memory, because I've only been in office for about two weeks.

70
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And then that strange secretary,

71
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because I realise inherited from my predecessor who came in the office of the old Rackley for when he was a young man wants to see you.

72
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You better see him quickly because you think he's been in charge a bit on this coming from Liverpool, nail nails, as usual.

73
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So anyway, he did look a bit depressed as he was a university press and.

74
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A staff member doesn't exactly he was one of the editors anyway, and he said that they just published,

75
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I think it was the 13th edition that checked the prices of textbooks much.

76
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And it did come out to a rather lukewarm reviews, to put it mildly.

77
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So he banged some of these reviews on the desk and the first reviews in the Annals of Internal Medicine.

78
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And this was a review that said, when I opened this textbook, I noticed that the senior editor is a physician to her majesty the Queen.

79
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Have you read the book? I only saw God Save the Queen and help.

80
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The reviews are all about that. And it was quite clear this is not going to be a bestseller.

81
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So he said that they just really needed a new textbook and, I don't know, stupid enough.

82
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I talked to John Ledingham, and the only thing that the idea,

83
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any idea directed me was that if we could produce a textbook of medicine that was much more global coverage rather than the standard Western.

84
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And so we got hold of David Rowe. You had a lot of tropical experience and the three of us did it.

85
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But I think it was I mean, the question of whether there was a place for journalists.

86
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I mean, it was. I think some of the other reviews of the and maybe the first position and

87
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Reiser and Joni Mitchell when she was the first professor of medicine not to.

88
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So, so, so dinosaurs. I think it is biological knowledge on the minds of dinosaurs.

89
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They said that they died because they fell under their own weight, which is not exactly what happened as far as I know.

90
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But and these books will do exactly this. And then there is no place really for walks of that type anymore.

91
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But I always thought that was really because I think if you practising any speciality in medicine, we do need a general guide.

92
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Um, anyway, it went OK and it's still going, but they're revising it online and you know,

93
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things like I got an email from them just this week saying they don't think revising

94
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a lot of the chapters for online versions anymore has had an intellectual appeal.

95
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I'm sure, because students like to say that it's the one thing that they're to to.

96
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So I think it is in practise disseminated news.

97
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The big problem is caused in the first two editions, I think.

98
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Well, you had this the British government had this kind of aid system,

99
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which was a system whereby one could get books printed for reduced price and dissemination in the poorer countries.

100
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That programme finished. So I think we got to watch the first and second edition.

101
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Gone that way, but after that, it's finished. And it's very difficult now because we knew this was a major textbook, I think, on thalassaemia.

102
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And the fourth edition that came to.

103
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2001, when I went back a couple of years ago, what was then Blackwells, the fifth edition,

104
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I said it would only do it if they would produce a cheaper copy from the developing countries because that's where it's needed.

105
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It's very kind. They told me, why don't you do that before 80000?

106
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And she's still thinking about it is very difficult.

107
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I've got a copy of your book, and I've also got is this six edition, which 96 one.

108
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And I find it fascinating to see, obviously, what things they cover.

109
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And, you know, the pages and pages on TV. We see this most recent, um, you know.

110
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Yes. Yes, you've got. And the original.

111
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And of course, the Johns Hopkins people read the issues that they put together and seen a copy of that recently,

112
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McGee, how Harvey did it, I and a couple of others.

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Now, I was going to ask you about your society leaving do about the money for the hospitals in Sri Lanka.

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Instead of your retirement policy, I wasn't the only one.

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Know, I was a trustee of the wealth and I try for about 10 years.

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And when you finished the well, they gave you a rather splendid dinner.

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And I would like Michael dextrously. And I would suggest to him at the time and I told him that I wanted to leave him alone if they

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could give me a bit of money towards building this treatment centre for the kids in Sri Lanka.

119
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So they gave me a bit of giving.

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I was given the time that I way you can do a lot in Sri Lanka for that amount.

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So I found a retired architect and former British architect who said you would do it for nothing.

122
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And so with the welcome that we got off the west.

123
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But it was the welcome. Oh, right. Yes, yes. You know, we said we just forgotten how much money it was.

124
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I mean, obviously, this programme worked and it was a few thousand, right?

125
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Yes. Yes. And you still go back to Sri Lanka quite often.

126
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Yeah. Yeah, I'm going back. But I'm on average about four times a year.

127
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And it started really by chance I was giving a lecture that must really be just like these kids die,

128
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a paediatrician only paediatrician who try to set up the new treatment for them.

129
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And then they sit in the middle of the island for poor neighbourhoods that could negative stereotypes and high spirits.

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Had the disease. And she asked me to go and help them out.

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And so I.

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We've got a lot of samples back to find out what type of disease is somehow and I started going at first year with awful people that

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had no facilities and the kids used to come in for a transfusion and there was no work for the mothers news to lie on the floor.

134
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They couldn't get the blood ready, so they had to spend the night being transfused.

135
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Who? The patient population, obviously.

136
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So we tried to fill in for the story, first, broke the story, and then the second floor.

137
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For the older patients, the idea, the role of the patient through these very complicated set of cases,

138
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so many different forms, different from treatment and then.

139
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And then we train the boy here, we did this deal with me, but I didn't do that on this issue like disease problems.

140
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And and then he went back and managed to get to know the British dead and to

141
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give us the money to go with the Diagnostic Centre for DNA Diagnostic Centre,

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not just the thalassaemia from infectious diseases.

143
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So they've got to get it done and then gradually work just a national programme and screening programme or watch pretty slow.

144
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And then with the war places we couldn't go to.

145
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But now we've just done a complete set of. Twenty seven percent is on the island.

146
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Seven thousand children face amazing diseases even on that relatively small island.

147
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It's very patchy investigation. And so just checked in wanting to give you no idea that so much.

148
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But know it has been an story.

149
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Do you think is the life expectancy and improve it?

150
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Oh, yes, yes, yes, very much.

151
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And that's why my big problem has been that they have a kind of union this week to be in charge of the commission now that it's 40.

152
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I mean, you know, it must be no overlap. The unions don't like it.

153
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And so no training and paediatricians was OK, but it was never going to work out.

154
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Any problem getting they have to be based on the British system.

155
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They have these kind of call. If you help, if you have had recent college, you even don't have a college of pathology.

156
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They have a college, haematology college or college of microbiology has five members and haematology about 12.

157
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But college is not very effective.

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You just have to break through it with the grade and go straight to work up to these kids to.

159
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So there's quite a lot of people to wait to jealousy, the usual thing,

160
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but probably if you imagine somebody from Sri Lanka coming in and telling you, you know, so, yeah, it's it's only natural, I think.

161
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And things like blood transfusion and bone marrow transplants, is that easy?

162
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Well, you know, they it's used a lot in many countries now, particularly marrow transplants.

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If there's a compatible donor being fairly successful,

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but they've not got the transplants to be achieved in Sri Lanka would be a lot of talk about it.

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But they done some of the other places I've worked on in Thailand, for example.

166
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There's a huge problem, but they have just fairly recently developed a mother's marrow transplant programme.

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And certainly in India, there was a very good programme, a couple of very good programmes, but it's been a bit slow getting off the ground.

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And it's only you know, it's only valuable if if they do have a day and by and large, they are really much more successful,

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often early in life size, once the results decline quite dramatically in the older patients.

170
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So it's not the answer, you know, and and what do you think will be pizza developments that thalassaemia?

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Well, probably like a lot of single gene disorders.

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I think I'm fairly confident now that gene therapy will be successful if it's been incredibly slow and has been unsuccessful.

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Well, let me rephrase that. There's been one case where what's been done and the donor haemoglobin has been produced and at least to year.

174
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But it's a funny case and I think about it.

175
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But my guess is it goes to the French and got that system going quite well

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for one of the genetic immune disease is known as the outbreak of leukaemia.

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And the kids have been treated and they found this gene, that protein that moved in right next to a kind of oncogene.

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And they did a very good job in sorting that out.

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And to do the recent genes that are being portrayed, I know go kind of fail safe regions around them,

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which make it very unlikely that they would, in fact, change was too high.

181
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Yeah, but I think I think the secondary technical details are grossly underplayed in nature.

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But it will happen. And it's just there's another big trial going starting earlier this year from the group in New York.

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But it's great. I think people have grossly underestimated the complexity of sticking genes into people.

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I mean, something in your area and they're really in the conventional.

185
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Yeah, it's and it's looking quite promising.

186
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Yes. And I suppose because the reality is. Yeah.

187
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And you can also test to see haematology, you would lend itself to that,

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knowing whether you've got success and the ability to study them and you can get.

189
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I really it's not like having to put something in the living room or anything,

190
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but there must be an inherent tension between having a disease that's common in less developed

191
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parts of the world and having that technology to do things like bone marrow transplants,

192
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or do you have to be in a much safer environment? You have got the resources to use them for safety.

193
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The problem of knowing how to use things.

194
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A unit such as yours must bridge that gap to a certain extent.

195
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Well, we have to, and that's why we need lots of places.

196
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We've really focussed on prenatal diagnosis because just simply the cost effectiveness of HIV and AIDS and the fact that it does give the family,

197
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if they wish, on the certainty of knowing that child can explode and probably turn have not only one child.

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That's been one of the tragedies in Sri Lanka, for example.

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The first of all, however, due to genetic counselling, you cannot persuade Sri Lankan male to child any part of him.

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It's always the woman who followed the family's journey to break up these very high suicide rate families and the counsellor and the principal,

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actually, because they've got very few trained counsellors.

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And that's been quite a big part of our effort in trying to improve the kind of social that to change.

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And then in Sri Lanka, they were not allowed prenatal diagnosis yet.

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It's not. It's interesting, I got to remember the Buddhists, by and large, accepted it, enjoy the same brand of Buddhism, but they say not true.

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I think. I think what's happened in Sri Lanka is that Buddhists have been a bit of a Christian religion,

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Jewish Catholicism, and they've pushed very hard against it and it's still not.

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But it's now developed in most countries in Asia and huge effect on the raw numbers in place in the Middle East and the Muslim religion,

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except for the. And the fascinating.

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Talk to these people, I've been to several community meetings and listening to the Islamic view, which is a fantastic,

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beautifully illustrated, potentially a dreadful day, but they believe that the soul enters the future thinking about 14 weeks, the breathing.

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So if you go in before that and the benefit to the family, then we don't know.

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What about any changes in medical school?

213
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I mean, we just don't have anything interesting happening or anything.

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I don't know. My overall view is that when I first came to the, um,

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the clinical side of the Department of Medicine is really quite strong and decisive and clinical about both courageous, I guess.

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And it was a little bit.

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I'm not a little bit silly, no, but quite strong on the political side,

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and then I was lucky enough to have a readership before I even got in and want to join a very strong teacher.

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And what the findings seemed to me to be your this the research done.

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So we started building that to go on to people in different fields from my own field.

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And then the mostly came along and offered me a unit as a unit.

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And it soon became apparent that medical research was going to take on more cellular and molecular biology.

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A lot of these men were injured and people in the medical school constantly coming to

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us to borrow equipment or was quite clear that there was a need for somewhere where

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clinicians could get trained in this kind of technology and also a place where young

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scientists wanted to practise something or their research could be in the medical direction.

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And there was no way for that either.

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So that's why eventually we went to the NRC and tried to what this building was originally set up shop corridors.

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Who was that? People the geologists worked with sheep.

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Extraordinarily, when I first came to the place was a ship building where Wellingtons, you know, we started in the real John Radcliffe in the area.

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And the observatory used to carry these and this fire was stuck.

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And then they built this building for it here.

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And then for some reason, the university was going through another period of financial depression anyway.

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So they couldn't afford to when he retired, they couldn't afford to live in the region and then they're going to just shut it down.

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So I suggested that we try and develop a building with this type of work that we've done a strong accent really on training,

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not making it too rigid in this kind of research direction, just using this technology.

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And I went to the emergency and.

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Jim James Jones was running them at that time, and he was very enthusiastic about this, but he didn't have quite enough money.

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So they put in some money. And then we went to the University of Virginia and then we set up a two story building right at the last minute.

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It was headed down to research funded.

241
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So they'd like a bit of it. So they put in some money.

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So that's how it all started. I think we come back to the medical school and I think the other interesting

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thing was that we started this graduate programme and my last days and three,

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that's been public service success when the graduate in three months.

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Yeah. Oh, yeah. In fact, we had a lot to worry about and really very quickly.

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And it's now when the price the.

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Yeah. I mean the big problem here was, was with the with the reform and GMC reforms, they were obviously desperate for us to go and were,

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I'd say, dilute the science a bit and make sure these kids were exposed to patients.

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They one but private friends.

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And, you know, it seemed to me that medicine was to this place for a diversity of medical students who will probably end with first degree,

251
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a strong base in science, which we had some interesting discussions,

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discussions, but I think we managed to compromise with them and the danger of closing the place now,

253
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because it's expanded to a certain extent, it's not a large amount of 60 each year, which 30 in 2010.

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And that balance might shift. It is going to be a good idea.

255
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Yeah, yeah. But the the final on a school element, which I think is still recognised as being very important.

256
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Yeah. You need to do this. I mean I, I know the external review board for Harvard Medical School.

257
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I was there last week and the losses are really to remember the first degree.

258
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And even the the in that sense it's rather similar.

259
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But I think you would have been right there.

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And then, of course, we're that as the research spread and be expanded, expanded you.

261
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And so all in all, it a fairly successful and I think the medical sciences division is the biggest one and it's the size of it.

262
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Last year there was absolutely no new.

263
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I mean, they thought we were a complete idiot. So this is you know, we do the science and you do the clinical medicine.

264
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Yeah, that's. It was amazing, but it was the same.

265
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That wasn't unique to me when I came back to Liverpool.

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They had no teaching in college and there wasn't a professor of physiology at

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Liverpool who regularly discovered the gastro he has from the physiological blood.

268
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But he told his people don't really trust me.

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So it was pretty cool. So he had all my first three tapes and feedback.

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That's not to say about the sort of scientific treatment to the present atmosphere right across the country, I mean, the division between the field.

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So I think it's improved a lot.

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What's interesting, reading Flexner, 100 years old,

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to see how that to what extent we have held on to that in England as well as the United States and comparing it with Europe is quite interesting,

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I think, because the German students that come to us see this as a major general,

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to say that the clinical aspects of emotional and physical medicine, well, I think exclude those aspects of the United States.

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And certainly when our elective students go to major institutions, they come back on their clinical skills, involvement with patients.

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So that must be satisfactions at the bedside end of the bench to bedside and the bench.

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And what we're preparing for the future is another matter.

279
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I told you that. But at the year I've been doing the.

280
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Master's course in the Harvard Business School at the same time.

281
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And when I had my breakfast with them all these meetings, and I thought it was because they were all going to be administrators.

282
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And so, you know, no, I didn't practise medicine in the States without having some proper training in business to make a big difference.

283
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And is that so that they can go out and set up boring institutions in some ways and become independent?

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Well, to some degree, they're good. They're very proud as [INAUDIBLE].

285
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But you they've got the primary rate goes up your prime rate.

286
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But in fact, it's kind of like just a big extension of the kind of office and know I'm real

287
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good comes the concept of family doctors next year or any time criticising it.

288
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But, you know, they're just generalists who work in offices and they call that primary care, which seems to me to be the same as, say.

289
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And just the last thing the ladies have any projects happening in this institute I could talk about in the last year or to some of the projects?

290
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Well, you know, the mixture.

291
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These the. There you go.

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And when I retired, then I would see a unit going under Douglas Haig and the military molecular biology,

293
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and they and they are less politically orientated than I was.

294
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But I mean, their major goal was to try to understand how basically they had the elements of the blood to form and the kind of

295
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regulatory mechanisms in the formation of blood and that is being applied to certain forms of malignant disease.

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Well. Some of the groups yeah, I think the the genetics with Andrew Wilkie has been extremely strong as well.

297
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And they're continuing to try to understand the major through that and understand the genetic basis for some facial deformities.

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Jose. I think that probably as good as anybody, you know, did not feel very, very good.

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But then they're gone.

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They're still the kinds of strong kinds of groups that work in various aspects of cancer.

301
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Then the immunology group and Andrew MacMichael took over from the director of the institute.

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And his group has been and still is very much involved with community AIDS, HIV.

303
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And I think they've done a lot of really important fundamental work on understanding HIV of

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Raksha immune system and the fact that he was the first interview in science last year.

305
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It's nice to see that the group in here had the highest citation index and any.

306
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More than all, these big American needs might be related to work on the board looking at things outside the European Union.

307
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Oh, I think so, yeah. And particularly the relationship of HIV AIDS, tuberculosis.

308
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And, you know, the other thing that's interesting, that's less it is more global we're looking at.

309
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Yeah. Yeah. Because of the relationship to peripheral units based in the US.

310
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Yeah. Well that's that's also been the same this we had have a very strong parasitology

311
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group in here as well with this new poll and the link to Cambridge recently,

312
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we're doing these big mapping of the genome to show the world that they can't afford in the laboratory back up for the people.

313
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And and that will typically in Thailand.

314
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And he joins us now from.

315
00:52:47,030 --> 00:53:02,900
And there's also some very interesting work going on in the video, particularly in relation to malaria as well,

316
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:09,260
because iron deficiency is a huge problem in the developing countries, as you know.

317
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And but resistant malaria makes it really very complicated to kind of manage on deficiency and that they've

318
00:53:24,890 --> 00:53:39,210
been involved in some very important work suggesting that the body's response to malaria makes it.

319
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This encourages the and absorption. And that's what you really need to do with these children in the developing countries,

320
00:53:47,870 --> 00:54:00,040
is modify your periods of replacement to the low malaria transmission seasons and so on to get this type of thing.

321
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:08,990
A practical point of view. Very important. You know, just a few thoughts.

322
00:54:08,990 --> 00:54:17,200
I think there's always the question is, can you think of anything else?

323
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:31,870
I think the idea was very appealing, but it has in general worked outwards and it's in its endeavour scientific.

324
00:54:31,870 --> 00:54:42,370
And I would see your role in bringing together the clinical and scientific in setting up units such as the ones you Lanka as being a very important.

325
00:54:42,370 --> 00:54:45,220
Is this a sort of combination of rigour,

326
00:54:45,220 --> 00:54:55,730
but also an understanding of what's possible both within and I suppose if you have a good cadre of people who are clinically very.

327
00:54:55,730 --> 00:55:01,980
Well trained, then you're more likely to get good results for the amount of money that you spent wisely,

328
00:55:01,980 --> 00:55:14,690
if the critical underpinning is success, which lets the financial side of this is really very important to get this message over to a good one.

329
00:55:14,690 --> 00:55:17,990
In fact, may maybe they're slowly getting it.

330
00:55:17,990 --> 00:55:27,020
But if you throw these partnerships and you do have control over the difference

331
00:55:27,020 --> 00:55:32,200
and throwing aid into a country and throwing aid to foreign governments,

332
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:36,620
I know what happens to a lot of that and places over there.

333
00:55:36,620 --> 00:55:43,830
And we do have some control over the situation with the genuine partnership and.

334
00:55:43,830 --> 00:55:52,070
And you can control the kind of cash flow in your life. And but they've done extremely well.

335
00:55:52,070 --> 00:56:01,580
I mean, you don't want to live in a nation with this malaria programme.

336
00:56:01,580 --> 00:56:05,300
And he's coming back to give the second Wetherall Lecture in May. That's right.

337
00:56:05,300 --> 00:56:09,170
You have been delighted that you were able to come to the diary.

338
00:56:09,170 --> 00:56:17,890
Well, and the other fascinating one is tuberculosis, because as he was mentioning, TB was an important component in this.

339
00:56:17,890 --> 00:56:22,880
And it's hugely important to me. I feel it sort of knocking at the door.

340
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:32,900
And you hate seeing some of the cases in relation to my own HIV work in London to see the impact of this very,

341
00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:39,370
very sick and the interplay of malaria with HIV and population.

342
00:56:39,370 --> 00:56:43,880
And I think that's a very isolating. Oh, yeah.

343
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:59,360
The vaccine programmes here are. I haven't I haven't seen the latest reports of Adrian, and he didn't say anything.

344
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:05,960
I think they're going into the next stage of trance. Yeah, we'll be going into Q1 and I've done some early work.

345
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:11,480
I think we're going into human with with with the malaria vaccine.

346
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:18,870
And I think it started with TB. TB, yeah. It's promising early days, but I think will be on.

347
00:57:18,870 --> 00:57:33,390
Yeah, well, there's all this noise made about a malaria vaccine last year, but we got to know that The Guardian had a piece of this meeting.

348
00:57:33,390 --> 00:57:42,340
This was saying the scientists were in tears and on the Web, which really is this.

349
00:57:42,340 --> 00:57:53,930
This is. You give me partial protection for up to six months, rather early days.

350
00:57:53,930 --> 00:58:04,150
It's been a huge problem and I don't know anything else to say about the school

351
00:58:04,150 --> 00:58:07,270
is the one very amusing story that you always tell about your appointment.

352
00:58:07,270 --> 00:58:13,140
I don't know whether you want to go on record that, oh, you had to contact them.

353
00:58:13,140 --> 00:58:26,600
Yeah, that's right. It really was bizarre in the sense that I got an invitation to come down here

354
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:36,470
and talk about this job and then I went back to it and it was a big set up,

355
00:58:36,470 --> 00:58:47,030
actually. I mean, it's probably not publishable and it should dull the office.

356
00:58:47,030 --> 00:58:53,360
This job, though, is much more or less without telling anybody.

357
00:58:53,360 --> 00:59:02,990
And they go to Big Boss. And so they wanted to have a quick look at a few of the people.

358
00:59:02,990 --> 00:59:15,530
And I was invited down you nothing. I told you I'd only been here one day trip with my parents as a kid.

359
00:59:15,530 --> 00:59:22,460
But, um, so about a week after I've been down here, I got these phone calls.

360
00:59:22,460 --> 00:59:29,450
And you were unanimously elected not to be a professor of clinical medicine.

361
00:59:29,450 --> 00:59:42,440
Please give us an answer in 24 hours. So I did chat with my mates in the pool and decided they didn't seem to do better ones.

362
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:47,280
We didn't need to bring this research group to theirs to move.

363
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:59,410
And so I said, OK. And they said that well in advance to say I wouldn't be taking a job for 18 months, but.

364
00:59:59,410 --> 01:00:07,910
Building on John. I have some say in what they're doing anyway.

365
01:00:07,910 --> 01:00:26,750
I literally did not hear anything for a year and then I to tell you about it, at least to the vice chancellor who might be leaving.

366
01:00:26,750 --> 01:00:39,380
And so I. I contacted his office and he said he knew Alex would become worried.

367
01:00:39,380 --> 01:00:45,170
So you better find out if it's all a mistake.

368
01:00:45,170 --> 01:00:50,780
Keep a place for you. So I didn't have the courage to ring them.

369
01:00:50,780 --> 01:01:00,470
I got my dear little secretary, old lady, Mrs. Coughlin, and I say, bring them up.

370
01:01:00,470 --> 01:01:05,940
Nice with you. She came back from the phone.

371
01:01:05,940 --> 01:01:14,110
She's such a dear old character, the real Liverpool.

372
01:01:14,110 --> 01:01:19,940
She was away and she came back. You can't go to.

373
01:01:19,940 --> 01:01:24,710
I said, why? But what did they say?

374
01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:29,000
Well, I said to them, Principal, you thought you been to that.

375
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:35,220
You were assured that nothing from me. And there was a long silence.

376
01:01:35,220 --> 01:01:39,470
And then this woman came on the phone.

377
01:01:39,470 --> 01:01:45,620
She says, Oh, my God. Um, what does he want?

378
01:01:45,620 --> 01:01:52,430
It was announced in the Times, wasn't it? What more does he want?

379
01:01:52,430 --> 01:02:01,430
I never had anything on paper all over the region.

380
01:02:01,430 --> 01:02:12,400
Now, let me just tell you that Margaret Thatcher said, I have it in mind.

381
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:17,990
She had to. And that kind of language,

382
01:02:17,990 --> 01:02:24,180
which is mind to put your name forward to the queen as though it would be quite easy for you not

383
01:02:24,180 --> 01:02:32,930
to have a chance to get nothing from nothing in his office or the university or from you know,

384
01:02:32,930 --> 01:02:41,900
it's not his thing. So there's no record of is that going to be at least two times in your life where you've taken

385
01:02:41,900 --> 01:02:51,230
a deep breath and just gone or come on arrived and found that you were greeted with open arms,

386
01:02:51,230 --> 01:02:54,320
open mouth to say, oh, no.

387
01:02:54,320 --> 01:03:08,630
And my grief, my first reaching and walking up the long corridor in the right place in the moment circle with little man running out at me.

388
01:03:08,630 --> 01:03:16,280
But I think I told you that before I turned right into the country.

389
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:29,560
And then my mind rushed out and said, You must be better off in the service.

390
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,740
Is your predecessor gave me space the.

391
01:03:33,740 --> 01:03:37,880
And then I replied, Can I assume you're not going to take.

392
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:45,050
You don't mean I got it right.

393
01:03:45,050 --> 01:03:56,330
You know, I didn't want to as I said, I'm sure I didn't write something, not realising and I'd just given away half my research.

394
01:03:56,330 --> 01:04:03,950
Oh, good. He said and stumped off down the corridor. And then he turned round and he said, Oh, by the way, I should have introduced myself.

395
01:04:03,950 --> 01:04:34,220
My name's Hans Krebs. And so indeed I remember the first story is Seven told me later that he was desperately worried about me coming in case he had.

396
01:04:34,220 --> 01:04:43,470
Fascinating. This is fascinating to this, the old boy was.

397
01:04:43,470 --> 01:04:49,740
Actually, not really doing very much, but he had this huge working,

398
01:04:49,740 --> 01:04:58,800
so she had to be in the lab on Saturday and Sunday and in the end they were running a trying to keep him company.

399
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:03,990
Yes, that's true. I remember coming to the end of the corridor and only going up to the boards.

400
01:05:03,990 --> 01:05:08,880
And there's always something going on in that little room with lots of glassware.

401
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:21,930
Right. So, you know, it's always somebody that was just paperwork and all of that now completely.

402
01:05:21,930 --> 01:05:31,550
There was no stranger to get anything for the things people walked up cause.

403
01:05:31,550 --> 01:05:43,690
And all the people who were looked up for your drummers training and teaching you is not isolated spot.

404
01:05:43,690 --> 01:05:46,971
He's got what you need. I have great hope for.