1 00:00:01,980 --> 00:00:05,430 Don, thank you very much for letting me come and talk to you. 2 00:00:05,430 --> 00:00:12,360 And this is the 31st of October, two and three talking about the Oxford Medical School, really. 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:19,650 And you've just been telling me actually about how you came here with the idea initially to read chemistry. 4 00:00:19,650 --> 00:00:23,850 That's right. Yes. But then Christchurch was very acceptable. 5 00:00:23,850 --> 00:00:33,420 They were I guess my chemistry teacher asked the whole group of us who'd attended him for the very first time, 6 00:00:33,420 --> 00:00:41,040 and he said everyone happy with their cause. And I said, I'd like to get medicine and said, please. 7 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,900 And he said, Of course, boy, we'll see that through. Yes, and he did. 8 00:00:45,900 --> 00:00:50,550 So how long did you take on the prelims? These are very important. 9 00:00:50,550 --> 00:00:56,730 And I think they ran parallel with the some of the first medical ones. 10 00:00:56,730 --> 00:01:10,920 And I did that for two terms. And so I extended my time in also from three years and a term up to four years, which is nice and summertime. 11 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:16,710 And what do you really remember the first two years when you were doing anatomy and physiology mainly? 12 00:01:16,710 --> 00:01:34,560 Yeah, well, one of my great inspirations came in those years because Dan Cunningham and it was the bright, bright light in the physiology department. 13 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,420 Then, of course, they were interested in things respiratory. 14 00:01:39,420 --> 00:01:44,370 And I got a I liked both of them and they taught well. 15 00:01:44,370 --> 00:01:52,110 And I'm sure that is one of the factors that eventually pushed me into respiratory medicine. 16 00:01:52,110 --> 00:01:58,380 Douglas Wood have retired by then, is that right? Pretty slim, Douglas, you know. 17 00:01:58,380 --> 00:02:02,900 Yes. Yes, they they'd gone. But yeah, I've still got that book. 18 00:02:02,900 --> 00:02:08,490 Yes, but how about Meadows of laboratories is the procedure now. 19 00:02:08,490 --> 00:02:12,330 I do remember. Yes. I thought you might. Yes. Yes, that's right. 20 00:02:12,330 --> 00:02:28,890 And of course, one of the most striking episodes in the laboratories was not there, but it was when we were doing the the the dance school. 21 00:02:28,890 --> 00:02:41,040 And when Flora, you know, the microbiologist Varnum volume, he was there. 22 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:53,940 And during our time, some misguided young man who was in on the course tipped down the drain, I think, with some salmonella. 23 00:02:53,940 --> 00:02:59,800 And he was literally kicked out of the school. 24 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:08,850 Yeah. Yeah. Um, so did he you know, did he qualify, as it were, if he was kicked out, what did you know? 25 00:03:08,850 --> 00:03:12,990 None of us knew about him. I don't remember. No. No. So what happened to him? 26 00:03:12,990 --> 00:03:18,000 No, no. I mean, certainly not after going to the microbiology. 27 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:28,020 Yeah. And later on in my life, I as a junior doctor, I met him socially. 28 00:03:28,020 --> 00:03:39,870 He was still as as he was. And because his daughter Dorothy and I were both house officers and the old OWSLA Pavilion. 29 00:03:39,870 --> 00:03:49,020 Yes, she was doing the neurology part with the patients who got, um, tuberculous. 30 00:03:49,020 --> 00:03:58,290 Mutata. Yeah. So it's all tuberculosis. And we because when she was off, I had to do this. 31 00:03:58,290 --> 00:04:06,990 And that was the phase where they were injecting into the spinal cord tuberculin in or right in mind. 32 00:04:06,990 --> 00:04:15,600 You go into this. But Dorothy did it and I did it and it seemed to produce some results. 33 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:26,250 But of course, how can you say from the way we were I in those days so honest, Miss Smith was a sort of memories of her. 34 00:04:26,250 --> 00:04:33,090 I thought she was a lovely eccentric and a very good neurologist. 35 00:04:33,090 --> 00:04:41,220 The my most lasting memory is quite some time later when I first became a consultant and I 36 00:04:41,220 --> 00:04:48,420 did general medicine down at the old Radcliffe and respiratory medicine up at the Churchill. 37 00:04:48,420 --> 00:04:59,870 But in my first started on the 1st of January 1971, I suppose it could be maybe 70. 38 00:04:59,870 --> 00:05:14,640 And we had two cases of meningitis and one was tuberculosis, and the he took she took him off very quickly. 39 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:24,830 The other one was was not. And, uh, I sought her advice. 40 00:05:24,830 --> 00:05:31,970 This guy had got an inner ear infection which had spread inwards and he was pretty sick. 41 00:05:31,970 --> 00:05:47,900 And we'd got, uh, mostly organism, uh, pneumococcal, you know, of course, it was pneumococcal and I can see her now. 42 00:05:47,900 --> 00:05:57,230 She came in from one of her outside pursuits, leant over the edge of the bed, looked at the patient, 43 00:05:57,230 --> 00:06:09,140 approached him about it because they said I'd been giving her on the advice of the professor of medicine, no less than besom. 44 00:06:09,140 --> 00:06:18,380 Right. I mean, we've been doing, you know, twenty whatever units they were a day into the into the group of eight. 45 00:06:18,380 --> 00:06:29,320 And she said no, this man needs intrathecal. And that was quite against peace and edicts on that. 46 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:43,160 And he was after all, an infectious disease am and she said he needs Baho because we couldn't get back into the spinal cord down there in the bay. 47 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:53,840 Yes. And so she pushed him off into the next and they drilled holes. 48 00:06:53,840 --> 00:07:03,020 And of course, it was purely because of all guns. They got out and he had this the penicillin. 49 00:07:03,020 --> 00:07:11,060 But it is faecal cavity. Yeah. And he was the first one to survive after 10. 50 00:07:11,060 --> 00:07:20,030 Very good. Yeah. And I was very impressed. And she was such a she was such a unique character. 51 00:07:20,030 --> 00:07:24,410 She, you know, she was so very good, so very kind. 52 00:07:24,410 --> 00:07:28,350 I thought she understood patients very well. 53 00:07:28,350 --> 00:07:34,160 And that's because she had a very broad base in her intellectual interests. 54 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:40,210 She did. But just to go back. Yeah. With your TUJ there for the first two years in Christchurch. 55 00:07:40,210 --> 00:07:44,840 Um, Heaton. Oh gosh yes. 56 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:51,920 He was just down to what. He was just retiring. Yes. 57 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,710 That was a surprise. 58 00:07:54,710 --> 00:08:04,970 And meeting a man of that calibre and interesting different social backgrounds to the little boy from a grammar school in and south London. 59 00:08:04,970 --> 00:08:10,610 But you know, I mean he taught me quite a lot and there was also a right at the end. 60 00:08:10,610 --> 00:08:16,040 There was a temporary one, too. Didn't didn't I didn't see much of. 61 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:25,220 But mostly Heaton and I remember going out to his house in St. Giles for a tutorial or to you know where that is. 62 00:08:25,220 --> 00:08:30,320 Yeah, it's just about where some child breaks into the to right. 63 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,220 And it's on the west side and is set back from the road. 64 00:08:34,220 --> 00:08:45,140 It's still a road. I suppose it's still in Christchurch. And did you did he turn to you for schools to for the third year for the anatomy? 65 00:08:45,140 --> 00:08:49,130 And, you know, he'd have gone by then if the your fourth year. 66 00:08:49,130 --> 00:08:58,060 Yes. Yes. You know, I don't remember I can't remember the name of this other guy who was a guy just then. 67 00:08:58,060 --> 00:09:04,970 Livingston No, no, no. And then where did you have your clinical training? 68 00:09:04,970 --> 00:09:08,540 Well, I got I got some sort of exhibition Tebartz had. 69 00:09:08,540 --> 00:09:18,860 Yes, I went to my interviews syntheses and Bardes Dosis clearly wanted me to be able to play rugby and I couldn't. 70 00:09:18,860 --> 00:09:24,290 Well I stopped because, I mean, I did my first year. 71 00:09:24,290 --> 00:09:33,230 I was never a great rugby, but I played in the school first game and not good enough since all of this. 72 00:09:33,230 --> 00:09:41,650 Um, so I'm going to pass. Did you enjoy that? 73 00:09:41,650 --> 00:09:56,200 I did, um. We certainly saw a lot of different people go live, they as you moved around the hospital, 74 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:02,710 you saw plenty of people there, lots of interesting memories of the bombastic ones. 75 00:10:02,710 --> 00:10:19,210 And I have to say that I wasn't greatly enamoured with the Professor Skowron gun and skull. 76 00:10:19,210 --> 00:10:26,320 That's right. Uh, except for one amazing factor. 77 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:33,940 One of our group was a diabetic, and he came in to the hospital. 78 00:10:33,940 --> 00:10:39,340 He was admitted to the hospital in a diabetic coma. 79 00:10:39,340 --> 00:10:54,340 And I think he that was the result of. He got pleurisy and he got the fusion skull and treated him himself, 80 00:10:54,340 --> 00:11:04,000 that actually altered my view of him because he'd been I I had felt that he was rather rough on his junior colleagues. 81 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,840 I mean I mean, the consultants that were in his team. 82 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,110 Right. He looked down on them and he made it. 83 00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:17,680 Evidently, he didn't think they were as good as he was. He worked with either a yes. 84 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:21,560 Yes, he was. I didn't see a lot of it. 85 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:26,950 Right. He wasn't in the scan team. He was on the edge of it. 86 00:11:26,950 --> 00:11:30,610 Well, yes, but he he was he had more strength. 87 00:11:30,610 --> 00:11:43,090 And some of it was the ones that arrived during my time, but that it struck me that he was not going to have any upstart and pushing him on one side. 88 00:11:43,090 --> 00:11:49,200 And was there a young chap called John Crawl who. 89 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,860 No. No reason. Right. You know, and then you did his job. 90 00:11:53,860 --> 00:11:59,560 Did you know of the story behind that? 91 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:06,460 Is that in my last year, I got married. 92 00:12:06,460 --> 00:12:14,950 Right. And despite the fact I think I came second in the last and final exams, you know, 93 00:12:14,950 --> 00:12:24,610 and they said if you're married, you either do my house job or you or you stay married, you know? 94 00:12:24,610 --> 00:12:28,890 So that was how it was in those days. I know, but terrible. 95 00:12:28,890 --> 00:12:33,190 Yeah. I mean, these days, I mean, they'd be in the law courts. 96 00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:38,860 I mean with late fifties probably. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 97 00:12:38,860 --> 00:12:46,210 Where did you get them. Well I went to one of the places that we went to for our outside experience and that was a Red Hill. 98 00:12:46,210 --> 00:13:03,040 Yes. I enjoyed immensely about the three jobs there started, but surgery then medicine and then I did a non emergency admissions one. 99 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,760 Seeing anything, any need. Yes, that sort of thing is. 100 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:11,380 And did you know you wanted to be a physician by then? Yes. 101 00:13:11,380 --> 00:13:16,030 It's so I mean, doing surgery first was another thing to be able to darkness. 102 00:13:16,030 --> 00:13:34,780 You know, again, that was a very good experience because and the chap in Norman Pitt was the consultant and he was he was a good surgeon. 103 00:13:34,780 --> 00:13:45,000 And and he let us do things particularly I remember well, perhaps not so much with him personally, but certainly with his senior. 104 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:50,500 We know there was a senior there, just a registrar may average on him. 105 00:13:50,500 --> 00:14:01,960 That's right. And the registrar whose name escapes me, he was very good to our students first year people, and he allowed us quite a lot of leeway. 106 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:13,750 And in that six months, I did a dozen appendicectomy and a dozen whatever we would never tonsillectomies to. 107 00:14:13,750 --> 00:14:17,950 I suppose it were tonsillectomies. Yes. Yeah. 108 00:14:17,950 --> 00:14:23,830 And it was a very good experience. Yes. So what about anaesthetics? 109 00:14:23,830 --> 00:14:29,790 Were you doing that too? No, I don't think I ever did any actual. 110 00:14:29,790 --> 00:14:39,420 But as a student, what was your memory of that? Because mine is absolutely primitive at the middle the. 111 00:14:39,420 --> 00:14:48,790 Yeah, I know I can't separate it from other allostatic experiences much later in life, I can't. 112 00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:56,730 So where were you, a registrar registrar? Well, you see, I did so I did eight months there. 113 00:14:56,730 --> 00:15:07,170 Then I came up here. Right. And did I got a post registration house job. 114 00:15:07,170 --> 00:15:11,530 And that was at the OWSLA, right? Yeah, the pavilion. 115 00:15:11,530 --> 00:15:15,750 That's where Dorothy Rodham was working and was on and still. 116 00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:18,480 Yes. It was still there. Yeah. 117 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:34,800 And you know, we were there in the field of sheep, a couple of buildings and on the the manor house was where the nurses lived. 118 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:40,530 I enjoy that because we got plenty of experience. So there was a lot of TB still around. 119 00:15:40,530 --> 00:15:48,060 And there was this age where people were doing still doing getting the chemotherapy, right. 120 00:15:48,060 --> 00:15:58,310 Yes. And doing lots of trials. And were you doing the bromide, Rasiah? 121 00:15:58,310 --> 00:16:05,390 No, I don't know. And you weren't having the multiple sclerosis patients, you know, and I was playing tuberculin. 122 00:16:05,390 --> 00:16:12,350 Now they're just tuberculous up there. How long had you intended to come back to Oxford? 123 00:16:12,350 --> 00:16:18,140 I mean, was it a late decision or had you always thought you'd come back to Oxford to work? 124 00:16:18,140 --> 00:16:25,820 I thought no. I felt I would rather go to Oxford than go back to London. 125 00:16:25,820 --> 00:16:31,880 I felt I'd been so deeply debt they wouldn't have me. 126 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:38,120 But I did want to go back to Oxford and that allows just for that one job. 127 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,440 And so I asked about our things there. 128 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:47,880 And I guess my next job came when somebody said, why don't you go out to Manchester? 129 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:59,630 There's a lot of good things going on there. And so basically, I went up there and did a senior House officer job with a chap called Brockbank. 130 00:16:59,630 --> 00:17:11,270 He was one of the traditional old medical bachelors who lived for the medical school and for his hospital. 131 00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:15,570 And he was a tremendous man, lovely big man as well. 132 00:17:15,570 --> 00:17:23,060 And everybody very generous, very kind. You know, one of his first things to me was when we arrived and also he said, 133 00:17:23,060 --> 00:17:27,020 now I want to know that you've got somewhere to live and no happy with that. 134 00:17:27,020 --> 00:17:31,460 Can't have a chap who's wondering about where he's going to live. 135 00:17:31,460 --> 00:17:37,910 And we had we bought our first house there south of Manchester. 136 00:17:37,910 --> 00:17:48,920 So I enjoyed that. And because he was good and Douglas Black was the professor then and he was good, I can always remember several things. 137 00:17:48,920 --> 00:18:04,180 One sees in one's mind doesn't only one of them was the the milk drip for all these people with various forms of indigestion. 138 00:18:04,180 --> 00:18:11,090 Yeah, well, they're also not I don't know. 139 00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:16,760 But this is Paul and I can see those things hanging around the wall. 140 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:27,960 And then I also got this man was he was a wonderful man because he he has a brilliant mind. 141 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:40,670 He spoke the most perfect English, Scottish, English, and the way in which he formulated his sentences, both in speech and in writing, was impeccable. 142 00:18:40,670 --> 00:18:47,780 There was a little club where people will be which we will meet, and he would be the chairman there. 143 00:18:47,780 --> 00:18:56,690 And he always had something wonderful to say, if you could hear it, because he had this very quiet voice, 144 00:18:56,690 --> 00:19:04,910 um, and a lot of his jokes were aside and you had to be really all over the place. 145 00:19:04,910 --> 00:19:08,030 And they were always some dry humour, but he was very good. 146 00:19:08,030 --> 00:19:18,680 I can remember in saying this, he said the only people who really need to be in bed are for an illness. 147 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:30,050 He wanted it for people with renal failure and particularly when there was that. 148 00:19:30,050 --> 00:19:33,800 And I guess what for? 149 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:39,740 Yeah, he allowed them, but he thought most people shouldn't be lying in bed all the time is right. 150 00:19:39,740 --> 00:19:44,030 But he was absolutely right before he died. Yeah. 151 00:19:44,030 --> 00:19:50,270 So how much of the family would you say doing that job of of the family. 152 00:19:50,270 --> 00:19:56,060 Would you see the family. You mean. 153 00:19:56,060 --> 00:20:07,880 I mean your wife. My own family. Oh no. Well, for that year it wasn't that bad or thought I had to go into Manchester, Iowa. 154 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:18,940 We lived about. Ten miles away, I was, but I had going above, but then I had two years there doing research. 155 00:20:18,940 --> 00:20:25,060 Jack how right. And whilst I did have some clerical duties, they were data and computers. 156 00:20:25,060 --> 00:20:29,560 Great clinic. Yes, but I did two years then with him. 157 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:35,540 So you were researching that? Yeah, that was when I did my research. And that was a doctorate, was it? 158 00:20:35,540 --> 00:20:49,330 Yeah. What was that? It was a time when there were two things going on in our area. 159 00:20:49,330 --> 00:20:53,030 People were interested in what they call blue bloaters and ping pong. 160 00:20:53,030 --> 00:21:01,900 And I remember I do that largely gone out of the sights of people these days. 161 00:21:01,900 --> 00:21:11,050 And I think it is because they never the blue bloaters never get to that stage these days because they're treated much earlier than they've got. 162 00:21:11,050 --> 00:21:15,590 We've got better medicine. I mean, I can remember the time when I'm an offline came in. 163 00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:22,960 You had to inject it into a vein. I can India, you know, we really didn't have the kit. 164 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:34,840 Yeah. And we were interested Jack was interested in whether this was something to do with a controlled and cerebral control. 165 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:41,170 And and we we did various studies of that. 166 00:21:41,170 --> 00:21:53,140 And we certainly found that the people who were Blue Bloaters, their CO2 was rising very quickly through as they got more sick, 167 00:21:53,140 --> 00:22:00,160 whereas the Pink Panthers, they it it stayed relatively flat and they shot up at the end. 168 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,570 And so we thought that was something to do with central control. 169 00:22:04,570 --> 00:22:12,560 And we did quite a lot of, um, no punctures on the poor chaps and chronic obstructive lung disease. 170 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,890 I don't remember going through any ethics committee or anything like that. 171 00:22:17,890 --> 00:22:23,570 Just a little break in your back. And it was certainly the. 172 00:22:23,570 --> 00:22:28,520 Do you measure the CO2? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. 173 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:36,130 Yes. And we certainly saw it going up and the brain seemed to have no control over it, 174 00:22:36,130 --> 00:22:45,900 whereas in most of the other disturbances of acid base, the body managed to get things right, but it didn't couldn't do it. 175 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:52,690 I'm here. Right here. And these people, of course, went into respiratory failure. 176 00:22:52,690 --> 00:22:59,560 So that was one aspect of it. We we did quite a lot of work on that and that came into it. 177 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:07,710 And also we were interested in the the nature of breathlessness. 178 00:23:07,710 --> 00:23:15,700 It was about the time and Jack Howel and more and more and more accountable brought out their Baucom breathlessness. 179 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:19,720 And it was very it's a very difficult area. 180 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:35,190 I don't think we got very far the one thing we did manage to show that we were measuring. 181 00:23:35,190 --> 00:23:46,050 Why don't we get this right? Yes, we felt that the real problem with the breath that this was that the lungs were expanding 182 00:23:46,050 --> 00:23:53,790 and instead of you being able to breathe out to the natural equilibrium point, 183 00:23:53,790 --> 00:24:01,680 they couldn't do it. And so all the time they were breathing at that top of their respiratory excursion. 184 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,400 Right. And and I can remember, I think more I'm more accountable. 185 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:17,190 So this time when we make it and he and he would say to the students, take a big breath in and now try and breathe in and out. 186 00:24:17,190 --> 00:24:21,750 You could see he was absolutely right. And we measured that. 187 00:24:21,750 --> 00:24:29,370 We could show that that was the case and that continue the bit after I you know, when I came here eventually. 188 00:24:29,370 --> 00:24:33,120 So after jackhammers, you came back to Oxford, did you? Yeah. 189 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:38,400 Yeah. Interpretor convinced. No, that was an interesting one. 190 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:43,690 I applied for reasons registrar, I suppose, just to register all there is. 191 00:24:43,690 --> 00:24:56,490 I became a senior, right? Yeah. And I didn't I mean, I heard nothing and somebody. 192 00:24:56,490 --> 00:25:02,390 Oh, Ralph Wright was still here in Oxford and somebody in Oxford knew a name. 193 00:25:02,390 --> 00:25:07,410 I just knew him who jacked my train him and they both went to Southampton and. 194 00:25:07,410 --> 00:25:10,680 Yeah, Jack didn't. Yes I know. But that would be late. Yeah. 195 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,340 Know. Sure. Yeah. OK, I can see the guy. 196 00:25:13,340 --> 00:25:24,330 I can't remember his eye but he said to Ralph who got that job and I've about a young appointed anyone he didn't like any of the applicants. 197 00:25:24,330 --> 00:25:33,180 So this chap very cos he gave me a little boost and I had to telephone call what I come down and see Professor Beeston. 198 00:25:33,180 --> 00:25:37,440 I went out, obviously the person there went through his office. We chatted for over half. 199 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:45,990 Now my my job is I mean again, those were the days. 200 00:25:45,990 --> 00:25:51,360 And so I did a couple of years as a percentage of my dentist or registrar. 201 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:59,700 And then they when that was out, they made me into a lecturer and I was joined in between medicine and anaesthetics. 202 00:25:59,700 --> 00:26:10,270 So I didn't do anything. And as I was doing lung function there, well, then when it came to the end of that, 203 00:26:10,270 --> 00:26:18,750 um, the job came up with the at the Churchill or the Justice Department. 204 00:26:18,750 --> 00:26:22,620 And again, they gave me a joint job with medicine, but. Yeah. 205 00:26:22,620 --> 00:26:27,420 Yeah. So what are your memories really about? Was the guy who retired, right. 206 00:26:27,420 --> 00:26:41,340 Yeah. What are your memories of Basson. A frustrated man, Gurche. 207 00:26:41,340 --> 00:26:49,590 He was used to being in command when he said something could be done, should be done, it was done, 208 00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:56,220 you know, said he needed to go through the rigmarole of all the universities or anyone else. 209 00:26:56,220 --> 00:27:04,050 So, yeah, and he was like, well, but then in no immediate sense on the wards. 210 00:27:04,050 --> 00:27:11,320 Oh, you have a man. No, I, I'm afraid I think it reflected on everything he did. 211 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:16,490 I found him a sad but in many ways. 212 00:27:16,490 --> 00:27:20,340 OK. Yeah. And who was holding his hand. 213 00:27:20,340 --> 00:27:29,340 Jim Holt was his registrar. Yeah. And who was the. 214 00:27:29,340 --> 00:27:41,040 They got a guy who went into the, uh. Names go. 215 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:54,660 Yeah, but went into when he went into the politics side of medicine, Atcheson, right? 216 00:27:54,660 --> 00:27:58,620 Yeah, he was he was the right hand man there. 217 00:27:58,620 --> 00:28:04,800 Yeah. What do you remember of him? Because he was a quiet guy. 218 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:10,800 Yeah. But he was also very rigid. Yeah. Well, all right. 219 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,010 I'll give you an anecdote of those times. 220 00:28:14,010 --> 00:28:24,600 We had those meetings where the cases that were around the board were discussed so that everybody who have had to say, 221 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:36,210 I can remember Jim Holt describing a patient, and he said he came from some Irish bog or other. 222 00:28:36,210 --> 00:28:41,790 And I just said lifted his head up with it. 223 00:28:41,790 --> 00:28:50,260 Which bog, Jim, sit wherever it was I used to live? 224 00:28:50,260 --> 00:28:54,270 Well, yes. 225 00:28:54,270 --> 00:29:02,340 No, I don't go that rigid every now. You then. But he still have a door that wasn't rigid. 226 00:29:02,340 --> 00:29:09,970 Nobody. I thought. Oh, yes, I thought because then there was a lot of haematology going on in the cabin had on and not very well. 227 00:29:09,970 --> 00:29:13,750 Sheila good. Yeah. Yeah. So she was very good lady. 228 00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:18,420 Yes. Yes. And Besom was very infectious disease was. 229 00:29:18,420 --> 00:29:22,380 Yes. I don't know how much he was actually doing infectious disease. 230 00:29:22,380 --> 00:29:26,550 I think he is more is much more than that though. 231 00:29:26,550 --> 00:29:29,970 He was called in when there were infectious disease problems of course. 232 00:29:29,970 --> 00:29:39,270 And I remember calling him myself. Yeah. So from business plays did you see anything of Pickering. 233 00:29:39,270 --> 00:29:44,190 Um, not a lot, no. 234 00:29:44,190 --> 00:29:49,720 I mean he was there of there were often what you you saw him about the place 235 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,610 and you sometimes went to meetings or seminars and things that he was doing. 236 00:29:53,610 --> 00:29:55,110 No, I didn't see much. 237 00:29:55,110 --> 00:30:03,280 I think I remember most about him cycling to Oxford, particularly when he got one leg that wasn't operating and still was doing it. 238 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:12,390 Yes. Yes, I do. Did he French that he had he had osteoarthritis and he had a hip replaced the one time. 239 00:30:12,390 --> 00:30:19,320 But yeah, I forget which. OK, so then you got your job at the just the Churchill. 240 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:25,290 Yes. General medicine. How easy was it to combine those. 241 00:30:25,290 --> 00:30:37,080 It was OK and I cycled everywhere in those days so I got quite fit because well it was easy enough going down to the, 242 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,820 the old infirmary was a little bit tough coming back out of the church and that was. 243 00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:45,960 All right. We lived in the old road. Yes. Yeah. 244 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:56,160 Uh, no, I found it reasonable. And again, I got two very experienced seniors and Bill Hamilton and John back. 245 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:01,290 Um, and the other person who was around then was Bob Marshall. 246 00:31:01,290 --> 00:31:18,720 Yes. I remember very quiet, withdrawn man, almost a painfully shy and company, but absolutely brilliant in one to one conversation and. 247 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:27,360 If he was doing lung function, you see in that part of surgery before his time, yes. 248 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:33,160 With Alison. Well, Alison is well, I suppose he must have been appointed by others to do that job. 249 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:41,040 Yes. Yeah. And when you work for the anaesthetic people that are directly for up at the church, 250 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:48,720 we didn't I didn't really work with them, even though I had a name, I think, which just where they got the money. 251 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:55,740 Yeah. No, yeah. I mean, I did a lung function there and I did and yes. 252 00:31:55,740 --> 00:32:01,230 And I did a little bit of research into various things. 253 00:32:01,230 --> 00:32:05,400 There was always there because Cramton Smith would have been going. 254 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,390 Yeah. Yes. Did you. 255 00:32:09,390 --> 00:32:13,260 Yes. I think he'd already started when I when I got that job. 256 00:32:13,260 --> 00:32:17,910 Is he did. Yes. And I liked him enormously. Yeah. He was very, very good. 257 00:32:17,910 --> 00:32:21,490 And John Spalding was around. John was great to me. 258 00:32:21,490 --> 00:32:29,160 So because it's been interesting talking to people, some John should be made the professor of neurology. 259 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:37,980 And then a bit later, I think he and Crompton's Smith simultaneously applied for the chair of anaesthetics. 260 00:32:37,980 --> 00:32:41,580 Which of them should have got it? Oh, I think Alex. 261 00:32:41,580 --> 00:32:46,500 Yeah, he was he was in need for this. Yes, absolutely. 262 00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:53,590 And I came in touch with them. 263 00:32:53,590 --> 00:33:03,070 That it was a time when there were still patients around who had polio and had respiratory problems, 264 00:33:03,070 --> 00:33:09,370 and it was with the world, particularly with Alex, 265 00:33:09,370 --> 00:33:17,230 we invented this extraordinary machine because we realised that this all tied in with my asset 266 00:33:17,230 --> 00:33:25,690 base staff because these people basically had respiratory failure due to not being able to move, 267 00:33:25,690 --> 00:33:37,300 really. And what we found was it was really quite extraordinary that if we could rather than put them into an iron lung 268 00:33:37,300 --> 00:33:46,510 because they weren't bad enough that if he could give them some device whereby every so often in the day, 269 00:33:46,510 --> 00:34:01,390 three or four times, Alex's team in the in the department produced a an inverted vacuum cleaner, in fact, 270 00:34:01,390 --> 00:34:11,560 a handheld black vacuum so that the air that came out went into a pipe and they put the pipe in their mouth and they put their lungs up. 271 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:24,730 Okay. I mean, it was crude, but in fact, we found a significant, not clinical and objective improvement by doing this. 272 00:34:24,730 --> 00:34:28,480 And they didn't have to do it on site. That was the interesting thing. 273 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,440 Their CO2 came down, their own steam went up. Right. 274 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,220 Which is and there was I remember some of those patients. 275 00:34:36,220 --> 00:34:46,240 They were absolutely wonderful people. Yes. You know, they would go round the world in a van with all the kids in the back and things like that. 276 00:34:46,240 --> 00:34:50,140 They were, I think, people with that sort of disability. 277 00:34:50,140 --> 00:34:53,980 And I saw it later in life with the system. I process lot. 278 00:34:53,980 --> 00:34:58,000 They've all got guts and by Jove, did it. 279 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,110 I mean, that's half the battle in not over everything, isn't there? 280 00:35:02,110 --> 00:35:10,690 But it certainly is with health. And if you fight it, the doctors can sometimes help you along the way. 281 00:35:10,690 --> 00:35:14,800 So there were huge changes in the chest unit in your time. 282 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:24,070 Yes. And just talk about those, because what you did change in the sort of patient makes us think, 283 00:35:24,070 --> 00:35:31,630 yeah, you see, it started that well, even before I got a job of their own, 284 00:35:31,630 --> 00:35:35,260 they also had the second bit sunny side that was called, 285 00:35:35,260 --> 00:35:45,850 which was the I think anybody could anybody in the old Raclette could use that for recuperation, for people who couldn't quite get home. 286 00:35:45,850 --> 00:35:47,440 Is there that sort of thing? 287 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:56,530 But it was essentially taken over for the other forms of justices' and the tuberculosis died down and all the rest built up. 288 00:35:56,530 --> 00:36:07,120 And of course, we were on the side where the John Raclette was going to be put up so that in nineteen seventy 289 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:17,320 eight nine we were ousted out of there and went to put beds in the Churchill beds in the slide. 290 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:22,210 And, you know, it was it was a bit piecemeal. 291 00:36:22,210 --> 00:36:43,150 Yes. And at that time we the main respiratory unit settled on the Churchill and we had to move to wards there. 292 00:36:43,150 --> 00:36:50,080 So that was when I just started at the church. You no one had moved. 293 00:36:50,080 --> 00:37:02,170 It was extra, was it? Yeah. Yeah, we are. When when all that was when when when that was knocked down to build the jawan we we were scattered. 294 00:37:02,170 --> 00:37:06,010 Yeah. But before that there had been chest's. Oh yes. 295 00:37:06,010 --> 00:37:12,970 Oh yes. That same time was the TB one right back to the time when I was a house officer. 296 00:37:12,970 --> 00:37:21,520 Yeah. And of course Bill Hamilton and John Bloke retired at about that same time. 297 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:29,650 So after I'd been imposed for about ten days, about ten years. 298 00:37:29,650 --> 00:37:37,870 And that was when Malcolm Bense game and Malcolm and I were also Bob Marshall. 299 00:37:37,870 --> 00:37:42,670 But we didn't get another new consultant for some time after that. 300 00:37:42,670 --> 00:37:51,070 So we had we had more patients. But because a lot of the patients with respiratory disease came straight to us. 301 00:37:51,070 --> 00:37:55,750 Instead of going to the emergency. Yes, but what if they went to the emergency room, 302 00:37:55,750 --> 00:38:12,880 they came to us quickly and then the other change that then occurred is that the by the time the jail, too, was built, more patients went up there. 303 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:19,510 And we then got John in imposed and he was developing all sleep and clear stuff. 304 00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:27,460 And so there was a great shift in that direction. But asthma seemed for an outsider to become more important. 305 00:38:27,460 --> 00:38:43,210 Yes. Well, the asthma story is the story there is that in 19 it must about seventy four or five. 306 00:38:43,210 --> 00:38:49,960 I was asked by O u p to write a book on asthma for the lay public. 307 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:55,810 You know, the series name of disease, follow the words of the father, etc. 308 00:38:55,810 --> 00:39:02,950 Yeah, I had of course been working on asthma with Jack. 309 00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:08,830 How I brought back that far because it was he who worked with Roger. 310 00:39:08,830 --> 00:39:14,110 I'll tune in to produce Intel. Right. 311 00:39:14,110 --> 00:39:26,740 So like it. Yeah. Which was the first drug that ever attempted to be a protective rather than the treatment of emergency asthma. 312 00:39:26,740 --> 00:39:35,320 And it was a good job, but it wasn't very powerful. And so that got me interested in that side of things. 313 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:44,890 So I've written this book and then in nineteen seventy eight I returned to Warwick, got in touch with you and said, well, 314 00:39:44,890 --> 00:39:52,180 I come on to the Cancer Research Council to look into the question of whether 315 00:39:52,180 --> 00:39:57,820 there is a need for an asthma society or something like that for patients. 316 00:39:57,820 --> 00:40:04,840 So I did. And the short answer to that is we decided yes, we need it. 317 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:14,330 And so I was the there were there was a lady who had run what they called the friends of the Asthma Research Council. 318 00:40:14,330 --> 00:40:21,160 That was a pure fundraiser. But of course, you can't have fundraisers going to meetings without asking questions. 319 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:29,750 So it was natural that this should happen. And the other thing, of course, is that during that time, inhalers had come in. 320 00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:37,960 I had the best story about that is one that held by Charles Fletcher. 321 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:44,620 And he said, I could see we were in the middle of a sort of meely of people. 322 00:40:44,620 --> 00:40:51,340 And he said, I really I realised last week that this organisation is very much needed. 323 00:40:51,340 --> 00:40:55,960 I said to my patient, show me how you use your inhaler. 324 00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:06,580 And she did it like that. And then when in other words, he she she was using her armpit as the place that she thought she was. 325 00:41:06,580 --> 00:41:13,540 But this spray. So, yes, we thought we were probably the regular. 326 00:41:13,540 --> 00:41:30,430 Yeah, yeah. I then I got really embroiled with that because I spent a lot of my time talking about asthma and we went through the first up to nine, 327 00:41:30,430 --> 00:41:44,050 so that was nineteen ninety eight that we started this thing that was called the Asthma Society and friends of the National Research Council, 328 00:41:44,050 --> 00:41:53,230 because the very forceful lady who'd set up that wasn't going to let me go, but she was the first chairperson and I was the vice chairman. 329 00:41:53,230 --> 00:42:01,450 And then she dropped out and I took over. I didn't 99 t yes. 330 00:42:01,450 --> 00:42:09,460 We we met. One of the problems was that the money that had been given to the Cancer Research Council 331 00:42:09,460 --> 00:42:18,310 was ring fenced for that and couldn't be used for the the patient help in any way. 332 00:42:18,310 --> 00:42:24,370 And so we had to raise our money in other ways. 333 00:42:24,370 --> 00:42:35,080 But at the end of the nineteen eighties we managed to get round this, but by some legal thing rather than they were. 334 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:51,100 And again, I was chairman of that organisation and I still keep in touch with somebody who was the chief executive then. 335 00:42:51,100 --> 00:43:00,580 So, yes, she lives in Herefordshire, along with her husband and several dogs, and I'll be honest, 336 00:43:00,580 --> 00:43:07,750 I go to that part of the World Music Festival where I see her, where we always we meet up. 337 00:43:07,750 --> 00:43:14,710 And so, yes, they ASPO took over a lot of my time and to the end of my career. 338 00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:19,000 And the beta blocker inhalers were their great advance. 339 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:24,220 And no, I do. 340 00:43:24,220 --> 00:43:35,280 I think I do. I mean. That. 341 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,980 I think that, um. 342 00:43:39,980 --> 00:43:44,840 Yes, all right, undoubtedly they were a great advance, 343 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:55,970 but it was still what we were all looking for was that was something that could be taken regularly and prevent attacks. 344 00:43:55,970 --> 00:44:12,290 Yes. Because however clever the relief is, by using your bed to do whatever it sometimes is not infrequently too late. 345 00:44:12,290 --> 00:44:17,600 And I sent the one one saw the bad end of the spectrum. 346 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:24,680 I know there's a lot of mild asthma that is clearly, easily controlled. 347 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:37,970 So it really was a steroid inhalers when they came in, they gave us much more likelihood of preventing that line from certain cromoglycate. 348 00:44:37,970 --> 00:44:46,400 People were researching that. And indeed, I was involved in one segment called 911. 349 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:55,040 There was another drug that they thought would be a preventive and wasn't a steroid, but that didn't really last very long. 350 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,580 So they got there and it there still isn't anything. 351 00:44:59,580 --> 00:45:06,200 There's been no real advance in the preventive treatment of asthma since the steroid inhaler. 352 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:12,950 And Malcolm Benson was doing more. Respiratory failure was a sort of chronic bronchitis, emphysema. 353 00:45:12,950 --> 00:45:24,080 I think we were all doing that. Yes, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were all very cosmopolitan, actually. 354 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:30,260 We did. And it was Malcolm and I, we we did whatever came to the door. 355 00:45:30,260 --> 00:45:34,960 And it's still in those days, we're still doing a lot of lung cancer. Yes, of course. 356 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:43,620 Including the treatment of it. And now that we've been taken away so wrongly, when did you stop medicine? 357 00:45:43,620 --> 00:45:49,820 Oh, that was at the time when the GI Bill to open. So that would be right. 358 00:45:49,820 --> 00:45:52,370 OK, and what made you stop? 359 00:45:52,370 --> 00:46:03,840 Oh, because when Malcolm came, they insisted that he did general medicine and there was no place for me to be annoyed at that or not. 360 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,900 No, no. 361 00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:16,760 I mean, I think it's incredibly important that people are doing a rather specialist area, even though there's very few of us who's got a big area. 362 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,710 It's still specialised in relation to general medicine, if you've done the general. 363 00:46:21,710 --> 00:46:34,070 But we don't make silly mistakes. And I think all people doing specialist things should do a spell, whether it's adequately catered for. 364 00:46:34,070 --> 00:46:39,920 Now, when they do the work, they do three months, a year or something like that, I don't know. 365 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:44,780 But certainly that continuous spell of Nellie, I think was nine years ago. 366 00:46:44,780 --> 00:46:55,070 Yeah, I never get tired of that. I always remember to Bill Hamilton, although he never did general medicine he'd done he worked in the army. 367 00:46:55,070 --> 00:47:09,240 So you'd see all sorts of other things. But he was very aware of all the non research things that could cause breathlessness. 368 00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:16,850 And if you think about it this enormous, you've got anaemia. Yes, you've got neuromuscular disease. 369 00:47:16,850 --> 00:47:24,820 You know, you've got heart disease. You know, it's a it is very important. 370 00:47:24,820 --> 00:47:28,810 You think things have. Yeah. 371 00:47:28,810 --> 00:47:37,460 And and then Julian Hook and Joe and we had Julian and John Prescott travelling. 372 00:47:37,460 --> 00:47:42,050 I think it was John first and then John, you know, still around Julie and then John. 373 00:47:42,050 --> 00:47:46,700 That was when the last we were given money to get our hands on, 374 00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:56,500 because I think the spell when Malcolm and I were doing a loan, it was pretty hard and. 375 00:47:56,500 --> 00:48:09,800 We always had good seigniorage. Yes, and Morang, too, I can think once you were a consultant, we always NHS or was there any university input? 376 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:18,780 Oh no I stayed I for. 377 00:48:18,780 --> 00:48:30,100 Up until I became. Up until the time when I became just chessboxing, right, I have two university sessions. 378 00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:36,720 Yes, and they. Yeah, yeah. And then you became entirely and it got yes, 379 00:48:36,720 --> 00:48:45,920 I know the only private patients I saw were those who usually university people who've got some sort of insurance. 380 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:53,030 And they wanted to come, you know, and say, who can't say that at the moment. 381 00:48:53,030 --> 00:49:02,450 And you'd have been working with her now with Julian, the one who brought genetics in. 382 00:49:02,450 --> 00:49:11,190 Oh, yeah. Yeah. And did that help? 383 00:49:11,190 --> 00:49:23,150 It helped the reputation of the department and they brought a very lively and delightful man here to the department and a man who was. 384 00:49:23,150 --> 00:49:38,600 Quite he had more clever ideas and understanding and indeed success in proving his ideas than most people I know more than his fair share. 385 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,290 He was really he was a very inventive mind. 386 00:49:42,290 --> 00:49:49,070 Yes. But that genetic knowledge has probably not changed things, nor has it the system. 387 00:49:49,070 --> 00:49:57,680 I mean, he's still a well, when he was when he went to Swansea, he was still working on. 388 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:04,880 I mean, he he was interested in it was he was certainly asked by the whole of allergy. 389 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,870 And he was quite convinced. And I think he had some good evidence. 390 00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:15,950 I was up to it since. But in the chain from the allergy and hitting the part, the damage, 391 00:50:15,950 --> 00:50:21,740 the body in the cell, there was a whole train before you got the allergic reaction. 392 00:50:21,740 --> 00:50:31,130 And in the middle somewhere there, he was convinced there was a very small molecule that could be dealt with. 393 00:50:31,130 --> 00:50:36,830 Right. And that, you know, he was still enthusiastic about the last time. 394 00:50:36,830 --> 00:50:40,730 I haven't seen him for two or three years. And Bill Cookson was here. 395 00:50:40,730 --> 00:50:44,860 And Bill, I haven't seen Bill for ages. And he's down in London, I think. 396 00:50:44,860 --> 00:50:54,650 Yes, that's right. Yes. Now, sort of on the national scene, you obviously have the Asthma Society and there's any other commitments. 397 00:50:54,650 --> 00:51:07,840 And our CEO, you know, well, I was committees of the Thoracic Society, and one always gets one year's term as a president, right. 398 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:12,230 When you are a sort of figure of, more than anything, a win win. 399 00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:22,810 Ninety two, three arguments here. And what any memories of that. 400 00:51:22,810 --> 00:51:26,830 Yes, but only sort of joking around here. 401 00:51:26,830 --> 00:51:40,440 I mean, the London meeting that it was still at the time when we held a big dinner and ours was on or on that occasion it was out of Madame Tussauds. 402 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:54,160 Right. And I think I did a jokey speech about my about imagining my various colleagues in there and what they looked like. 403 00:51:54,160 --> 00:52:05,990 Now, looking back, do you think your Oxford education helped you and your medical career? 404 00:52:05,990 --> 00:52:15,350 But I wouldn't have had anybody without it, and I certainly, as I said before, 405 00:52:15,350 --> 00:52:23,330 I certainly think that the physiology, the respiratory physiology I learnt stayed with me and was very valuable. 406 00:52:23,330 --> 00:52:31,970 Yes. And the rest, it all impinged in some way or other. 407 00:52:31,970 --> 00:52:36,470 I don't think there's any way in which it couldn't. 408 00:52:36,470 --> 00:52:58,260 And I yes, I that I, I do I do feel the way in which all Oxford teaches you does give you the ability to think outside the box. 409 00:52:58,260 --> 00:53:03,920 And that is terribly important. Yes. Yeah. And it's it's very important in medicine. 410 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:09,410 It's. Then cause cystic fibrosis, your brother died. 411 00:53:09,410 --> 00:53:14,570 Yeah, but you saw the changes in that, or were they in paediatrics? Oh, absolutely. 412 00:53:14,570 --> 00:53:22,370 I knew that was and that's that was an incredible change when we got heart lung transplant. 413 00:53:22,370 --> 00:53:32,610 But, of course. One has to say that the genetic people haven't helped, but they tried very hard, 414 00:53:32,610 --> 00:53:50,400 but they haven't got the answer and the success that gradually occurred was just by good medical care with the tools we had available and the 415 00:53:50,400 --> 00:54:00,540 increasing complexity of the organisms and therefore the increasing search for antibiotics and antimicrobials that would deal with those. 416 00:54:00,540 --> 00:54:06,210 And that certainly happened. And I saw that change and I saw you see when my brother died. 417 00:54:06,210 --> 00:54:11,370 And that was an interesting, again, little anecdote. 418 00:54:11,370 --> 00:54:16,770 You say he was 15 at a time when he was born. 419 00:54:16,770 --> 00:54:21,330 The disease didn't exist. It was one of the wasting disease of childhood. 420 00:54:21,330 --> 00:54:31,710 And about 1940, 41, it was split off from coeliac disease that they thought they were now different. 421 00:54:31,710 --> 00:54:42,840 Just a bit of clinical observation that really. And then but now that time, the average survival was two years, you see. 422 00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,410 And of course, by the time I came to the end of my career, 423 00:54:46,410 --> 00:54:57,300 it was very obvious because we were finding so many different genetic differences and different types of. 424 00:54:57,300 --> 00:55:09,120 Yeah, and clearly he was a very. Well, you say mild and he lives with degrees, and that was mild in those days. 425 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:18,780 I remember meeting at some it was a historical conference a lot of us were at about. 426 00:55:18,780 --> 00:55:26,430 I think it's about asthma, really. But Archie Norman was there, who was the paediatrician at Thomas's? 427 00:55:26,430 --> 00:55:32,670 I looked after my brother and I spoke to him and I said who I was. 428 00:55:32,670 --> 00:55:37,170 And I said, I don't suppose you remember my brother. And he said, Of course I do. 429 00:55:37,170 --> 00:55:40,960 And then, of course, they don't. Of course he did. Nobody else lived to 50. 430 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:48,120 No. Yes. And he was a lucky man to be sober. 431 00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:54,810 But of course, we saw with the the improvement in clinical care not done by the doctors, 432 00:55:54,810 --> 00:56:01,800 but by all those wonderful people who did all the sort of the physiotherapists and the nurses and all that. 433 00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:08,230 And then we got heart lung transplant. Yes. And so you linked up with what I did for you? 434 00:56:08,230 --> 00:56:12,990 Yeah, I. Oh, no. Oh, yes. In that sense, yes. 435 00:56:12,990 --> 00:56:20,550 But what I saw was that the paediatricians in Oxford, Brian Brown, 436 00:56:20,550 --> 00:56:30,450 were they I used to go to these clinics so I would take over the patients when they reached the age that they should be in and out of planning. 437 00:56:30,450 --> 00:56:37,500 And that's continued, of course, since. And of course, now the survival is available today and it is 40 plus. 438 00:56:37,500 --> 00:56:44,550 It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. That's still just good clinical care with the development of antibiotics. 439 00:56:44,550 --> 00:56:48,470 Oh, I'm with the. Yeah. You will have to have the antibiotics. That's clinical care. 440 00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:57,960 Oh yes. I'm dealing with the disease. Yeah. Um, I mean after the cephalosporins, what have been the big advances in antibiotics to you. 441 00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:05,230 I mean you're asking me to remember the name. 442 00:57:05,230 --> 00:57:09,940 I think you're dealing with the pseudomonas. Yes. 443 00:57:09,940 --> 00:57:13,770 Yeah, yeah. I don't know where they got to with that of the one. 444 00:57:13,770 --> 00:57:17,400 I don't know that. But I think that was the devil. 445 00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:26,380 Yes. And the Harefield. I mean, did you find it easy to get patients in their. 446 00:57:26,380 --> 00:57:36,990 It was if you made a good case, yes, you could get patients in saying yes, um. 447 00:57:36,990 --> 00:57:44,490 We did quite a lot of them and we were down to Papworth, right, okay. 448 00:57:44,490 --> 00:57:57,030 That's the sort of old university, you know, some of the things that I'm trying to think back, I think that was probably took more of us, right? 449 00:57:57,030 --> 00:58:03,120 Yeah, because Maureen Thompson, the paediatrician, she works with afeared, it seems to me. 450 00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:12,330 I mean, when you hear her talk about things. Yeah, well, yeah, that may be some connexion that she's also had and in some direction. 451 00:58:12,330 --> 00:58:16,620 Yes. With Pappa's Terrance English. Oh yes. 452 00:58:16,620 --> 00:58:22,650 He was hurt very much. But you know, they would grade and not done anything. 453 00:58:22,650 --> 00:58:35,720 I should have asked you about that. You want to say. 454 00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:45,590 No, and I tell you one thing, I would say there's got nothing to do with medicine, but a lot to do with the hospital, right? 455 00:58:45,590 --> 00:58:56,210 That is one of the legacies that I should be most pleased to leave behind if it's still there when I first is the hospital orchestra, right? 456 00:58:56,210 --> 00:59:12,680 Yes, because we started that in nineteen when the first concert given by medical staff in, uh, for raising money was in 1978. 457 00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:28,930 And that was a nurse died of melanoma and her parents worked in the hospital and there was a visiting Australian singer. 458 00:59:28,930 --> 00:59:38,560 And he and one of the surgeons who was on they were on the same ward and were asked by the parents, 459 00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:49,390 could they do a concert in honour of the memory of Jill Braudis who had died? 460 00:59:49,390 --> 00:59:57,940 And I was part of that. Then the next year, the Australian who organised it the first he got back to Australia. 461 00:59:57,940 --> 01:00:04,840 So the parents said to me what I did. So we did one. And then it builds up and we finished up. 462 01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:11,770 And we always have done concerts for medical charities. That's the way to get bums on seats. 463 01:00:11,770 --> 01:00:20,650 Yes, because they get all the money. Since we do it in the hospital, there's no fee for the venue. 464 01:00:20,650 --> 01:00:37,570 And in fact, we're doing one Saturday we find you do one a year or three a year, three and and the 100th should fall on in March 16, 23. 465 01:00:37,570 --> 01:00:49,810 All right. Terrific to see that. I mean, I think that I I think I might be remembered more for that, but I know what you mean. 466 01:00:49,810 --> 01:01:00,340 Yeah, I'm sure I'm very I am very pleased that that happened and thinking way back now you had been in. 467 01:01:00,340 --> 01:01:06,830 But I know the medical you know the marriage business, but you must have had an idea of the standard of care. 468 01:01:06,830 --> 01:01:11,830 But and when you came to Oxford, how would you say it compared with both. 469 01:01:11,830 --> 01:01:46,780 Oh, or with Regio, for that matter. If you are talking about the currency where the health service is being lambasted for standards of care, 470 01:01:46,780 --> 01:02:00,700 I don't think that at that stage I was able to draw any conclusion by comparing Oxford parts and Redhill. 471 01:02:00,700 --> 01:02:05,590 Um, but you must have this is a good ship. 472 01:02:05,590 --> 01:02:23,000 Oh, this is a dump. I mean, what was your feeling when you came close to the of a billion? 473 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:32,040 I think I thought with that directly from Fairbury. 474 01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:41,200 Was. Better, yeah, it was better than but. 475 01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:49,270 It was incredibly specialised, and I'm sure they did great things for people with specialised skills and. 476 01:02:49,270 --> 01:02:55,020 All right, it was also the first aid post for Smithfield Market. 477 01:02:55,020 --> 01:02:58,930 But as students, we can see a lot of that now. 478 01:02:58,930 --> 01:03:03,290 We saw a lot of the specialist stuff. 479 01:03:03,290 --> 01:03:15,020 And as far as our training was concerned, I certainly learnt more about being a doctor and the techniques that you needed to be a police officer. 480 01:03:15,020 --> 01:03:20,330 When I got my office job, rather than in preparation for it, yes, 481 01:03:20,330 --> 01:03:29,990 because I had never done a loved one until the registrar in the surgical ward at Red Hill told me that. 482 01:03:29,990 --> 01:03:35,680 And he had been trained. He'd done a lot of work in Africa where he did a lot of it. 483 01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:41,480 And I know how to do it. But the patient sitting up because he would have to throw them out there. 484 01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:45,320 One, two, three. Right. Yeah, that's interesting. 485 01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:53,270 Yeah. So I, I think Barnes did not give me a good technical training. 486 01:03:53,270 --> 01:03:57,900 Had it ever occurred to you to do your clinical in Oxford back then? 487 01:03:57,900 --> 01:04:06,020 No. Well, no, not many people do. No, no. People said to us, you don't want to do anything that's dangerous. 488 01:04:06,020 --> 01:04:11,750 But at the time I came here, I was the consultant. Yeah, well, at the end of the year before. 489 01:04:11,750 --> 01:04:16,310 The years before. Yeah, I thought it was pretty good and it was. 490 01:04:16,310 --> 01:04:21,560 Did you ever go to the Witchery for case presentations or was he always busy? 491 01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:29,570 No, I went to the military. And what do you think of them? I mean, I always gained something in those. 492 01:04:29,570 --> 01:04:40,230 Yeah. Yeah. I remember, you know, talks about the electrolytes for some reason. 493 01:04:40,230 --> 01:04:44,540 There was always when it would be old cook. Yes, I cook. 494 01:04:44,540 --> 01:04:48,830 Yeah, I cook. He would raise things about potassium. 495 01:04:48,830 --> 01:04:53,360 Yeah. I can I get kind of like. Yes. 496 01:04:53,360 --> 01:05:03,090 Can I am I right in remembering that he was like well I learnt all about potassium and they got their stuff and I know all about sodium. 497 01:05:03,090 --> 01:05:08,150 Now they've got this stuff. Potassium, you know about it. 498 01:05:08,150 --> 01:05:11,830 I don't know. 499 01:05:11,830 --> 01:05:15,770 Probably going to finish. I know the answer. And to say we've done very well. 500 01:05:15,770 --> 01:05:19,730 Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, right. 501 01:05:19,730 --> 01:05:23,640 All the best. And I want to thank you for coming.