When did you come to the rescue effort, which year did you come to the right place?
1960. Right. So this is we're talking to either in about two or three years, but it was a fairly strong movement.
And I can't give you from with any accuracy names of people involved.
Some people were the old guard and said they were near the Redcliff.
Could be developed a great deal more years. And we can keep up with the times.
And you must remember, penicillin was used here first. We've got weeks and these remarkable people and their achievements.
So that is one side and then is the other side who I think wasn't necessarily confined to the younger man.
A number of the older men, including Sam Correa, were very keen to see plans laid down for a completely new hospital career,
of course, and very carefully made sure that the hospital had preserved ownership of the mental health side.
Yes, and that was the basis of it that you had this big division now or the hospital has,
of course, at that time been in severe financial difficulties.
It overspent largely due to Alesund developing his department.
And so the restrictions were on.
But it was put to Lord Franks, who was a fine man.
He really was a good guy, but no nonsense.
And Lord, all of our Franks and he, I think, very firmly came to the conclusion that a completely a fresh start,
a completely new set aside was inevitable if we were to hold our place in the world.
And this was debated certainly by the board of governors and certainly by did we call it the medical staff committee, the main consultants committee.
That probably was it. Council, yes. Yours is probably a medical staff council.
And that meant roughly once and all the consultants, you know, invited to attend.
And the issue came up very strongly there. And there were people who spoke very strongly for or against.
And I can't honestly remember who which side the various people on.
But perhaps we just believe that there were proponents of the Churchill like us will come to that later.
We discover that it developed then, uh, that, um, the oh,
I would advise you to refer to the minutes of the Board of Governors and the minutes of the Medical Staff Council,
if they still exist, if they'd because it will all be there.
And it was decided clearly by the board of Governors that there should be a move towards a completely new hospital,
uh, to the extent to which they decided to appoint a planning team.
Now, I would guess the planning team, um, would have been in early.
The decision to get a team together would have been in early 1963.
Right. That's when things started to move up now because I was due bresh and incautious best way of silencing a man who's being a nuisance,
his responsibility. So the initial planning team was done already and we'll come to him in a moment.
I remember our most important person, excellent man was John Oddie,
who was really representing the regional boards, and John Badenoch myself, just the three of us.
And eventually we had a secretary, a male secretary.
His name may have been level, but I'm not certain of that.
We also had attached a nursing representative, again from memory, and I couldn't find any records.
I can't remember her name. So that was the group? No.
We were brought together and I am going to remind myself I have made a few little things here.
Um, yes.
Um. Oh.
The planning team first started to be seriously, oh, here we are in from June nineteen sixty three onwards.
Um, and um, when I say seriously, we were meeting often two times a week, sometimes more often than that, we would go visiting various places.
We went to the ministry once.
We certainly spent quite a few days visiting Scandinavia, you know, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, all of whom had modern hospitals particularly.
I think Denmark was regarded as one of the leading hospital designs.
Um. Now, the initial tasks were to decide the architect, uh, the site to be chosen.
And we'll come to that in a moment.
Um, and as an additional thing, what would happen eventually long term to the Radclyffe site and, um, uh, taking those in some sort of order?
Uh, the sites we deliberated the planning team carefully and for the sort of reasons I mentioned just now,
it would be impossible to imagine a really big structure being placed on the right side.
So that pushed us onto the possibility of the Churchill or the Malarone site.
I can't remember the strong arguments, but we all came down emphatically that by far the best way was to go to what was,
in essence, a large virgin site, um, waiting to be developed.
Um, and we did this in the belief it would be possible to get a special road constructed between the Northern Bypass and the hospital site.
We did it in the belief that this would be possible, although we realised that it would upset firstly people.
But it seemed to us very necessary. But it may just add as a corollary, that didn't happen.
And consequently, you have relatively poor access to the hospital, but it could be done to stop it happening sooner or later.
Um, so that was the decision made to develop it at the site?
Um, I think it was help.
The Churchill site was too restricted as regards the access.
It was going to be a very big upheaval to build on the site.
Um, I'm sure there were a number of other points we raised at the time, but, um,
it was a unanimous and strong decision that the Manor House site as well were there for financial reasons,
because I think the United Oxford Hospital, then the Manor site, and I'm just not sure about the Churchill.
I've always heard rumours that it was partly to save money, that they went to the manor house.
So they went to the cost of demolishing it and having temporary buildings to house the church.
I know not. I would have been a fairly complex process.
Did the regional board own it or. They're very close by and they might have.
Yes, they might have. Yes. Uh, I can't give you an accurate answer to that, but that is that decision taken.
Now, the running parallel with that was beginning to look around for architects.
Um, and the decision of the architects was, I think, finally made round about August of nineteen sixty three.
Um, they had the possibility of four architects or firms.
There was just one. And eventually it boils down to and they were interviewed,
representatives of interviewed um that the firm of York model and Rosenberg should take the job on that.
Rosenberg was a. A remarkable man. It's a very sharp, razor sharp personality, very amusing with a loud voice,
and didn't hesitate to express himself possibly and didn't hesitate to drive everyone in project very firmly as well.
So, in fact, he was an excellent man. I remember one of the questions I was asked to remember the planning team.
Well, why did you go with them? And I said, well, we were very impressed with Rozenberg.
I am just in passing on the way, um, when we were travelling,
we would often have conversations where do you found that I would be part of the British army invading Germany?
So, um, uh, he his hatred of the Germans very strong, came about.
Um, anyway, we were meant to do too much.
Um. Now, the other thing which we laid down from the beginning, and I think, uh,
John Vedat most certainly would feel like this and, uh, so did I, although I was only a recent coming to Oxford University.
Was that the site of the Radcliffe Infirmary?
Um, if it were completely evacuated, which would seem likely,
eventually the site must go into the hands of the university and it would give the university an opportunity they wouldn't
have had for hundred years of expanding the area within central Oxford of virtually the entire Oxford political purposes.
And in fact, 40 years later, that is what is happening, provided they haven't finished yet.
So, in fact, they those sort of three principles that we've settled on and pursued, um, have all been realised and built and expanded upon.
Yes. Uh, then the next thing that was decided was still there was the order of actually building, um.
Now, John Stallworth was very keen to see a completely new hospital on the new site.
And I think there's a little touch of encouraging him.
Obstetrics and gynaecology was to be the first bill, which indeed is what happened.
And he was delighted about this, what he wanted to give him room to do, run things as he as he wanted.
But he was one of the people, fortunately, who was, uh, Peter keen on this.
Um, I was going to make another point, um, that he wanted to take the risk, as it were, being the first step there, John.
Yes. A bit of risk associated with the risks. Yes, indeed. Yes.
Oh, I may say that Rozenberg from the word go was most encouraging.
Um, he said, oh, very good.
It's on a site on the hillside and was more for the upper part, you got wonderful views across Oxfordshire.
And so so he was delighted because to him, uh, building on the hillside was much more interesting than just on, uh, and there we are.
And yes, I can't tell you much more about the nursing officer.
You I you I'm sure you find in your records, uh,
her name and this the male secretary who is a young a very eager young man who died in a car accident locally not long afterwards.
Um, his name may have been level once again. You'll find that in the in the.
Yes, um, yeah. Woman It's, um.
Oh, we travelled, um, in, um, the Scandinavian countries with the architect.
Well there was a young architect as well, um, uh, particularly to address the problem of the appearance of the hospital.
Um, you can either have a lovely building.
I could have possibly a good looking building.
And, um, it was decided particularly Rosenberg was keen on the format we have at the moment, which is very similar to the format also used at a wing.
A big addition, uh, at. Do I mention Thomas's, which is the one opposite the house is Thomas, Thomas is, yes, some Thomas.
They built a new wing, the same architect.
Right. But, um, I think you will perhaps agree with me that if you're going to have a big building,
uh, the general arrangement of the windows is, uh, is not bad.
It's about as good as you could possibly get if you're going to have a big, rather monolithic building.
Um, and of course, the observant guy, anyone the was going to match as well.
Now, I remember going to the time and I can't quite remember where it was or who it was, um,
there was a big debate going on in the common room of the college where I was dining and on this very matter of the hospital,
um, and, uh, one chair loudly and vociferously spoke up and said, uh,
the only thing is excusable is that the nature of the building is that it's to be a hospital any other for any other purpose of building of that size.
And, uh, easy visibility from Oxford itself would be quite inexcusable.
So they felt the hospital might pass muster with, uh, General Collegiate Fox.
But, um, now because it is on the skyline, isn't that a very good position?
You see it from a long way and taking the reverse. Um, I have a very major operation.
And Brazil for a while afterwards, uh, four years ago now, and the room I was in gave you the best view of the world.
I've had distantly.
But, uh, as 8:00 in the morning when the sun was shining times from east, from the east, it would illuminate Oxford most wonderfully.
It is lovely you there. And I never succeeded in getting a good photograph, although I'm very keen on, um,
I think a lot of trees have been allowed to grow and have rather removed the, um, you know, the number of rooms you can actually see that you.
Right. But that's the Tribune is, uh, now various people who are involved.
I'll come back to you in a moment because he's absolutely key. Uh, Rotaru, of course, I think involved she died five years ago or something like that.
But she was, of course, excellent and very helpful. And there were many conversations with him.
Um, there really this was, um, a joint enterprise, uh, between, I suppose, three.
You've got the, uh, Oxford Hospital itself, United Docs and hospitals or whatever they were called in those days.
The regional board and the university were were the people, people involved.
Um, now, um.
Oddly, he was, I think, high up in the administrative staff of the regional boards, he was a very capable man his age, uh, he qualified at 42.
I would say he would be, uh, about four years older than myself.
So at that stage, he would have been in his mid forties. In other words, at his height, yes, he had after his name.
And I never unravelled it in capital letters and full stop D as C, which stands for Distinguished Service Cross.
No, I don't know what that's what he did to earn this.
He did spend while in New Zealand, um, and he had made a bit of a speciality upon, uh, planning and commissioning hospitals.
He was an ideal man for it. He was a likeable man.
He was very capable. Uh, we would all agree on what was to be done and then he would translate it into words, which is absolutely vital.
So we didn't have an awful lot of writing to do, John Beilock and myself, because he would, as I say, put it into words.
Now, I had hoped to be able to.
Give you more than this, but this is something this is the first report of a planning team, right?
And there's this September coming within three months.
We are and we did work extremely hard. We had got out a very important document.
Um, I think you'll find that it's also the same.
I can do who's William's commitment, who is with this? Oh, he will.
He was warden of Rhodes House, a bloke called Williams. Yes.
And he was already with the first lady, Williams with his wife.
He'd been the map organiser for Montgomery and the Desert.
And then he became boss of Rhodes House. And he was always sort of vaguely linked with the hospital.
So I think it's probably him rather than her. Later on, she had there were Williams committed under her.
And of course, I find in my diary his name keeps cropping up and he was obviously involved a good British business.
So I'm fairly sure you're fine. But I to be absolutely sure the.
They say and I will continue sort of index at the front that this is.
Our second report be the second report of the Williams family is OK.
I think it does also contain a third report involved in this.
But anyway, this is the first and second reports of the is marvellous.
And I'm pretty sure, although it's not dated and it doesn't give any names, um, I'm pretty sure that that's the one area.
Yes, it does, doesn't it? Yes, right. You're welcome.
Very happy here. All right. So, yeah, I find it amusingly a bit of paper, which is a paper.
They may relate to that. And I don't know whose handwriting this is.
Um, I noticed that there are no private beds mentioned for mental hospital or manor house.
Um, it is inevitable that provision should be made for this for your deliberations.
Not tonight. So, uh, but anyway. Yes, we did.
Uh, I've forgotten what we did do, but it wasn't a particularly big priority provision.
Ted Maloney might have written that. And he could be.
It could be. I haven't seen it.
Ted was one of the guards who didn't want to see it. Right. I could be wrong.
Quite wrong about that. He may have had an open mind. Uh, Tim, still, I'm pretty sure I would have thought it was a good idea.
Yes, he was a good man.
Thank you very much. Um, no other people on the scene.
I'm afraid you'll find that nearly everyone who is on the scene and actively involved have died, passed on.
Um, now somebody who who is probably alive and may have been involved was it wasn't Megan to Mitzy Megan term, as I call it, but I mean.
All things to see now, I grew up thinking that people that for the manor house, Pickering was a supporter.
Well, Richard Russell was a great Churchill advocate. You could be right.
No joke. Oh, Churchill advocate against the new hospital.
Yes, I would have it on the judges, but probably to keep both the infirmary going.
Right. Because that was the other option, of course, to keep the refurbish the infirmary in some way and have, you know, the two sides.
Yes, there could well be. And of course, all these sorts of variations and things were rather vehemently discussed.
I mean, why don't you people who didn't speak to me for about ten years, I should have called.
But anyway, um, I think Ted Williams probably is the other person you mentioned about Richard Russell's reference.
Pickering was Formentera down to 30 years, and Ritchie wanted things on the Churchill.
Yes. Well, it was a perfectly valid belief that it would be the better side.
But looking back at it all now, I'm sure it was better to, um, use the bad sites.
And the Churchill site is still largely available and has already started the process of expansion or it hasn't.
Incidentally, as an aside, you know, the big new building.
Have you been into the cancer centre? Yes, I have. Vastly oversized.
Vastly over extravagant. Yes, it's built with private money and we rent it with a huge sum for other people.
One of the epiphytes is, um, now, incidentally, it has, however, two interesting architectural features.
One is the board right down so they get hot water from 50 feet under.
And the other is we've got solar panels on the roof, which provides hot water.
Well, that's good. So I mean, cost anyway. And interestingly, that's not really there, except that, uh,
it was probably an argument that it was a good idea to leave the church aside as a reserve, as it were.
Yes. Um, perhaps some time, which I just mentioned, you know, looking at what were the defects,
looking at it now, how long is it since we moved up into it?
Was it about nineteen for the main move, I think was about nineteen eighty about B, right.
I can't move but we are looking at it now if you like.
Thirty years or whatever it is later. Um car parking completely flummoxed us as they expected.
Um I hadn't expected anything like the huge deluge of cars to be parked.
Uh they had their eyes on what was called the camel's hair.
Head on the map you can see a camel and uh,
right there on the little spot where they talked about building a multistorey car park where it was tucked away and outside,
but they've probably been insufficient. So that was one thing that drove it, took their breath away.
That was a disappointment that we didn't succeed in getting a much better access into the hospital,
possibly directly from the normal, as we had earlier on bypass.
Uh, but I think the local council refused to sanction that because they felt it would upset,
you know, maybe fifty houses might be displaced or something like this,
um, because there was a bit of an outcry when they had to take off, uh, half the garden, the people, the present entrance.
Yes. But I was so there we are.
Um, the, um, another thing which was disappointing, we had hoped to have, um, bigger living quarters for nurses and particularly for doctors,
uh, um, but they weren't able to get more than a comparatively small number.
And so that that had to fall by the wayside. Other things were done.
There was like a colony says all the windows had wooden.
Frames instead of everlasting aluminium or something like that, that may or may not be a very heavy maintenance, but yes, I don't know.
But all in all, I would say, apart from various gaffes that have occurred, um, it has lent itself, as we hoped it would,
to considerable expansion, as you did cardiac unit was founded and then the children had something else done.
His latest itself, as we had hoped to expansion like that.
And it is a building which is capable of considerable internal modification.
And, uh, uh, the only part that I feel I suffered from this when I myself was the patient, uh,
left me unhappy was the rather dungeon effect and claustrophobic, um, atmosphere of, um, the lowest-level with a radio out much of the radio.
And, uh, if you're a patient, um, there was one occasion when I was feeling very ill and they wanted to X-ray me and I told them there was no need to.
They said, well, you really ought to be down there. And as soon as we got down there and I was parked there on the stretcher, uh,
they announced loudly that they were very sorry that it was going to be quite a long
delay up to now because it had been a traffic accident and people were coming in.
And I found myself in a large, uh, semi dark room, um, filled with people.
And the chap next to me was coughing and coughing and, you know, really highly productive cough.
Um, so in the end, I couldn't stand it any longer.
So I called Nurse over to look. Could I remind you that I used to be a senior surgeon here in this hospital and I do not want to have this X-ray.
Please take me back to my ward. And she looked to tropical systems that you spoke to the sister and I was very soon returned for good.
And of course, the fact that.
A little bit of but he should have not been more cooperative,
but there was one of the difficulties I have no doubt one could think of is that travelling between the two hospitals wasn't too difficult.
If you had your own wheels is easy enough. And I think it was the bus service is fairly good for patients.
Now, when they built the main bit of the phase two,
when they built face to the story always was the winter of discontent around
that time of year and that they had to cut down because of a shortage of money.
They had to, you know, not do some things they were intending to.
Was that a big issue or when was that?
Well, this should be about eighty two, I guess when they're doing phase two, it was when the Catalan government were facing the unions.
That's so hard time. What did we have to cut down on?
Well, I don't know what they did cut, but I remember hearing and it may have just been gossip that because of the shortage of money,
they'd had to pare back down the plans on the outside.
I think give us some of it was the cladding wasn't as good as it was meant to be, I believe.
Could have been, um, I can't reliably remember that.
And there were upsets over the years. Where how long did you stay on the planning team, as it were?
Well, because of home difficulties, I gave up.
I think it just a year I was planning July, but we did in that time frame all the vital decisions to the site.
The architect and the university should have first claim on the site.
Indeed, one little detail, which was selfish perhaps in the planning phase, and this was later when Hudson was on board,
um, they were beginning to plan the interior arrangements and they were good with all the surgeons,
um, instead of giving them separate offices to have them all in one big room or there was a name for not jumbo open,
open, open plan, something like that. And I very vociferously urged Hodgson, who was in favour of the open plan.
I remember he was the least. Yeah.
Didn't have the same requirements as we did that surgeons must have an individual office and they did on that floor.
They built a number of compartments as each of the surgeons, if I think six of us altogether had their own room where the secretary could work.
Were all your own records kept? And that worked out very well at that time.
And who followed you on the planning team as a surgeon who succeeded your prep?
The surgeon didn't know to and it.
Right. I get it. Yes. I don't know where they put John Badenoch stayed on.
It didn't really do. Yes, because remember, he was very involved.
He was a tower of strength and wisdom. You felt that. So he would protect the university and the physicians.
Yes. Their interests. Um, did you find the physicians had adequate facilities when they moved into jail to.
Uh, yes, I did. Said by and large, yes. I mean, the outpatients I really felt were much better.
Yes, the wards had improvements.
Um, the great difference was because of the lift of the high building, you used to go up and down in the lift and never meet anybody in the area.
Down the long corridors, you would be meeting people and doing business.
And it was interesting how that did make it a yes. Yes, no.
I can remember with the surgeons meeting, one of the surgeons raised a certain point.
They I said to him very firmly, this is Malcolm go.
Oh, yes. Um, look, I always walk the five flights.
We are going up five flights. It's good for your health. Very good.
And he said, I prefer to get my exercise by playing golf and I had to do seven seventy nine.
True, it is, I think nowadays you would want to build that into your life, and one of the reasons why I'm glad in this house we're not a cottage, we.
Yes. You have to go upstairs at the drop of a hat to probably go with that [INAUDIBLE].
Then I got back to doing the stairs towards the end because I thought it was good exercise.
I quite agree. But the professorial units, the surgical unit was very good.
And I think the medical profession, you know, they had lots of space.
And of course, Peter expanded out and got a much bigger staff. And Peter Morrison did that very well.
Now, the medical artists. Yes, full detail, they they had much better facilities and they ever had before near the restaurant.
I'll tell you one thing which. Uh.
Yes, at the RBI, they had excellent post rooms with excellent facilities for students to see and at the Redcliff,
the facilities with Rob Smith of were privative.
You know, I remember going to. Yes, and it's terrible.
When I first went there, it was a surgical case. And, uh, Rod Smith is doing the PM and he was furious because I, as I had been used to, uh,
started saying a lot about the case, what we had expected and what we might find here.
And he was curious because he wanted to hold the fort right away.
But anyway, so really and very odoriferous if you are sensitive, Beltsville and they Redcliffs,
first of all, the facilities and the ability to demonstrate them to surgeons was very unfair.
It was. It was. And I'm just trying to think about I don't think they all that good in the end.
You know, that's what I was thinking, too. They weren't just trying to think where one win because the postmortems guys,
they had very good facilities and one would often have a Mars bar and be quietly crunching in the back of a group of students on a,
you know, watching post post-mortem. And they were brilliantly displayed, um, postmortems by medical registrars,
usually senior registrars and your cars, and drive it in the driver's side, um, saying yes.
Yes. Well, display, of course, brilliantly.
Keith Simpson, have you ever heard of them? I worked closely with her for a while.
He was absolutely superb and he was very funny.
Yes. In a very weird stories, the cat bloody footprints.
So I know he was a wonderful character. He really was.
Um, and he always he was impressed with the students because he always had a good
looking secretary in the with him busy typing because of course they didn't have,
um, you know, microphone. I think I know all sorts of things there.
But anyways. But those guys guys had a great place in the area.
It was true. Oh yes. Um, so what was the surgical view of Pickering and.
Oh there's always great respect. Yes. Yes. Um, no, I think those are you talking about in the new hospital generally.
Generally when he came in he was held in high esteem. Yes.
Um, he was in favour of a new hospital, wasn't he?
He was, uh, and he was always a great pleasure to be an examiner.
I mean, he had all the sort of examiners lunch afterwards on the last day or something.
Uh, and you tell the story, for instance, of how they had a full orchestra, um, playing the eighteen Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture Musical.
Um, and instead of using drums for the cannon, they brought in extra artillery pieces.
Everyone had predicted the Chatel when the call, but it didn't bring difficult Pickering story that uh oh, he was a super guy.
Yes. Um. No, I think it's been a great scene.
I used to imagine it still is. Oh, I think seriously, we used to have outstanding characters.
Um, I was going to and I'm sure they exist today, but I was just going to digress a little bit and see how I did find it.
A disappointment in the attitude often of consultants coming in to advise upon me when I had my orders and
how some would willingly come and make no charge or whatever and others would charge absolutely maximums and.
To do those things you need.
David, what you need. Well, shall I do that in.
Again, I'll get the milk. Um, do you do with your wife?
Yes. Did you work in the Redcliff? Yes.
She was haematologists all ten years.
Yes. Yes, please. Yes, fine. Thank you. She was a neurologist.
Oh yes. She really wanted to do chest disease in London.
Yes. And she was at the wrong time. Yes. And they said you ought to do more about tuberculosis.
So she came down to Oxford to do the M.D. with honours with the tuberculosis meningitis.
Yes. Yes, she did that. And by that time she was a neurologist, you know what I mean?
Because she stayed in Oxford because we were getting married.
And so she was in the neurology department with Richard and she was either at Stoke Mandeville or, you know, I mean, the Churchill.
Then later she was with Charles with a migraine clinic, that sort of thing.
And then she became a paediatric neurologist, child, neurologist, paediatric allergist.
Did she know? She did. Kidnappee Oh, yes.
Wichai who died years in. No, indeed she did.
No, I've no idea because many of your diabetic cases forfeits amputation or is.
I've got to cut it down by the ankle. Yes, sure.
But I mean,
we always recommend not to go higher than below the knee as aggressive strokes with limb fittings that it didn't particularly like gritty strokes,
but they were very useful because the patient getting out of bed tonight could at a pinch
sort of put that on the chair across the room as it was much more used to the patient.
Yes, we really don't know what they're doing now, but I always wished I could have had a hand in between if and hers was hers.
Were done for diabetics. Yes, they were right as they were.
And then there was Robert that they too I mean, he got into trouble, didn't he?
I don't know what happened. I don't know.
But it was pretty rare to lose a limb for I think he had iliac occlusion, cultural clues, right?
Yes. Well, shall I stop this?
Because you've really given us a lovely umbrella. But if you think of other things just.
Tissue hospital, we became one of the few bull's eyes is I think it's a very fine hospital visits there.
I always had I felt very sorry for Westby.
Yes, uh, I did. Well, I don't quite know.
I don't quite know what happened. But he was a very good surgeon.
He was very unlucky that all this arose.
Um, but at the same time, if he wasn't getting the numbers, maybe there was a case of centralising them somewhere else.
Yes. But I think there's no doubt about his ability as a surgeon.
But having said that, it does require a very special ability to operate on a particular instrument with heart disease.
For sure. Six month old.
And, um, but I did, uh, his name came up, um, in the election of surgeons to become representatives in the Royal College of Surgeons,
members of the Council of the Royal College of Surgeons or whatever.
And, um, and to my surprise, I looked through I didn't know any of them.
Well, they pointed boogying. If you George and I were all surprised they even offered me.
But I believe in trying to take my interest. But then I noticed his name right at the end.
So I support this man. So I have supported him.
And I I think he's got some very interesting ideas that you get in know.
Oh, no, it hasn't been decided right now because he did spend a lot of time on this cardiac pump and it was still hard.
Well, that's yes. I mean, it could be very important. Uh.
Well, I think the technology is not quite there that. No, he's done a lot.
But the main issue has been on children. Yes.
Very young infants ideology. Um, but so I hope he thrives.
It's been a great asset. I think he's right.
He should have. And I think he has now got another surgeon with him, hasn't he?
Well, at one time there were five of them, the five codecs, and that was one of the troubles.
There were too many for the number. The patient doesn't have it. So they all started squabbling.
Yes. Um, but it was Westerby and Pipe, an Indian who I like very much.
They were the two for some time. And then they were going to expand and they got these other three.
And then it didn't happen, as it were. Yes. And there were troubles with one or two of them, you know, the wrong instruments or the wrong operations.
I didn't know if it was a sad business.
That remains that name, run a very good car, do they do the service excellent?
Yes, absolutely. And the transplantations developed well, I think and yes, they do.
They did not. Oh, no, sorry.
I don't do any I honestly don't know. They didn't used to, but I don't know now.
But kidney and pancreas have gone well, you know.
Have they. Well, kidney certainly, you know, real success. You know, pancreas about as well as anybody else, which is very good really.
Um, no, I haven't recently seen their results numbers.
Um, but, um, Peter Morris set up a good unit there and I imagine they continue no renal, um,
think things terribly important because it is something like nine times out of ten will work for a prolonged period and um and save the day.
Um I, I was it I was I had to sign up for something and they also driving licence.
But again, to get well, I think I'll stop this now, because there's been a super well, I will talk.