1
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When did you come to the rescue effort, which year did you come to the right place?

2
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1960. Right. So this is we're talking to either in about two or three years, but it was a fairly strong movement.

3
00:00:20,580 --> 00:00:27,700
And I can't give you from with any accuracy names of people involved.

4
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Some people were the old guard and said they were near the Redcliff.

5
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Could be developed a great deal more years. And we can keep up with the times.

6
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And you must remember, penicillin was used here first. We've got weeks and these remarkable people and their achievements.

7
00:00:46,980 --> 00:00:56,820
So that is one side and then is the other side who I think wasn't necessarily confined to the younger man.

8
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A number of the older men, including Sam Correa, were very keen to see plans laid down for a completely new hospital career,

9
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of course, and very carefully made sure that the hospital had preserved ownership of the mental health side.

10
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Yes, and that was the basis of it that you had this big division now or the hospital has,

11
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of course, at that time been in severe financial difficulties.

12
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It overspent largely due to Alesund developing his department.

13
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And so the restrictions were on.

14
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But it was put to Lord Franks, who was a fine man.

15
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He really was a good guy, but no nonsense.

16
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And Lord, all of our Franks and he, I think, very firmly came to the conclusion that a completely a fresh start,

17
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a completely new set aside was inevitable if we were to hold our place in the world.

18
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And this was debated certainly by the board of governors and certainly by did we call it the medical staff committee, the main consultants committee.

19
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That probably was it. Council, yes. Yours is probably a medical staff council.

20
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And that meant roughly once and all the consultants, you know, invited to attend.

21
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And the issue came up very strongly there. And there were people who spoke very strongly for or against.

22
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And I can't honestly remember who which side the various people on.

23
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But perhaps we just believe that there were proponents of the Churchill like us will come to that later.

24
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We discover that it developed then, uh, that, um, the oh,

25
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I would advise you to refer to the minutes of the Board of Governors and the minutes of the Medical Staff Council,

26
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if they still exist, if they'd because it will all be there.

27
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And it was decided clearly by the board of Governors that there should be a move towards a completely new hospital,

28
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uh, to the extent to which they decided to appoint a planning team.

29
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Now, I would guess the planning team, um, would have been in early.

30
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The decision to get a team together would have been in early 1963.

31
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Right. That's when things started to move up now because I was due bresh and incautious best way of silencing a man who's being a nuisance,

32
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his responsibility. So the initial planning team was done already and we'll come to him in a moment.

33
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I remember our most important person, excellent man was John Oddie,

34
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who was really representing the regional boards, and John Badenoch myself, just the three of us.

35
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And eventually we had a secretary, a male secretary.

36
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His name may have been level, but I'm not certain of that.

37
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We also had attached a nursing representative, again from memory, and I couldn't find any records.

38
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I can't remember her name. So that was the group? No.

39
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We were brought together and I am going to remind myself I have made a few little things here.

40
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Um, yes.

41
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Um. Oh.

42
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The planning team first started to be seriously, oh, here we are in from June nineteen sixty three onwards.

43
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Um, and um, when I say seriously, we were meeting often two times a week, sometimes more often than that, we would go visiting various places.

44
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We went to the ministry once.

45
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We certainly spent quite a few days visiting Scandinavia, you know, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, all of whom had modern hospitals particularly.

46
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I think Denmark was regarded as one of the leading hospital designs.

47
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Um. Now, the initial tasks were to decide the architect, uh, the site to be chosen.

48
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And we'll come to that in a moment.

49
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Um, and as an additional thing, what would happen eventually long term to the Radclyffe site and, um, uh, taking those in some sort of order?

50
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Uh, the sites we deliberated the planning team carefully and for the sort of reasons I mentioned just now,

51
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it would be impossible to imagine a really big structure being placed on the right side.

52
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So that pushed us onto the possibility of the Churchill or the Malarone site.

53
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I can't remember the strong arguments, but we all came down emphatically that by far the best way was to go to what was,

54
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in essence, a large virgin site, um, waiting to be developed.

55
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Um, and we did this in the belief it would be possible to get a special road constructed between the Northern Bypass and the hospital site.

56
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We did it in the belief that this would be possible, although we realised that it would upset firstly people.

57
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But it seemed to us very necessary. But it may just add as a corollary, that didn't happen.

58
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And consequently, you have relatively poor access to the hospital, but it could be done to stop it happening sooner or later.

59
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Um, so that was the decision made to develop it at the site?

60
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Um, I think it was help.

61
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The Churchill site was too restricted as regards the access.

62
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It was going to be a very big upheaval to build on the site.

63
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Um, I'm sure there were a number of other points we raised at the time, but, um,

64
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it was a unanimous and strong decision that the Manor House site as well were there for financial reasons,

65
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because I think the United Oxford Hospital, then the Manor site, and I'm just not sure about the Churchill.

66
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I've always heard rumours that it was partly to save money, that they went to the manor house.

67
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So they went to the cost of demolishing it and having temporary buildings to house the church.

68
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I know not. I would have been a fairly complex process.

69
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Did the regional board own it or. They're very close by and they might have.

70
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Yes, they might have. Yes. Uh, I can't give you an accurate answer to that, but that is that decision taken.

71
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Now, the running parallel with that was beginning to look around for architects.

72
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Um, and the decision of the architects was, I think, finally made round about August of nineteen sixty three.

73
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Um, they had the possibility of four architects or firms.

74
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There was just one. And eventually it boils down to and they were interviewed,

75
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representatives of interviewed um that the firm of York model and Rosenberg should take the job on that.

76
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Rosenberg was a. A remarkable man. It's a very sharp, razor sharp personality, very amusing with a loud voice,

77
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and didn't hesitate to express himself possibly and didn't hesitate to drive everyone in project very firmly as well.

78
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So, in fact, he was an excellent man. I remember one of the questions I was asked to remember the planning team.

79
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Well, why did you go with them? And I said, well, we were very impressed with Rozenberg.

80
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I am just in passing on the way, um, when we were travelling,

81
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we would often have conversations where do you found that I would be part of the British army invading Germany?

82
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So, um, uh, he his hatred of the Germans very strong, came about.

83
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Um, anyway, we were meant to do too much.

84
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Um. Now, the other thing which we laid down from the beginning, and I think, uh,

85
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John Vedat most certainly would feel like this and, uh, so did I, although I was only a recent coming to Oxford University.

86
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Was that the site of the Radcliffe Infirmary?

87
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Um, if it were completely evacuated, which would seem likely,

88
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eventually the site must go into the hands of the university and it would give the university an opportunity they wouldn't

89
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have had for hundred years of expanding the area within central Oxford of virtually the entire Oxford political purposes.

90
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And in fact, 40 years later, that is what is happening, provided they haven't finished yet.

91
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So, in fact, they those sort of three principles that we've settled on and pursued, um, have all been realised and built and expanded upon.

92
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Yes. Uh, then the next thing that was decided was still there was the order of actually building, um.

93
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Now, John Stallworth was very keen to see a completely new hospital on the new site.

94
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And I think there's a little touch of encouraging him.

95
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Obstetrics and gynaecology was to be the first bill, which indeed is what happened.

96
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And he was delighted about this, what he wanted to give him room to do, run things as he as he wanted.

97
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But he was one of the people, fortunately, who was, uh, Peter keen on this.

98
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Um, I was going to make another point, um, that he wanted to take the risk, as it were, being the first step there, John.

99
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Yes. A bit of risk associated with the risks. Yes, indeed. Yes.

100
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Oh, I may say that Rozenberg from the word go was most encouraging.

101
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Um, he said, oh, very good.

102
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It's on a site on the hillside and was more for the upper part, you got wonderful views across Oxfordshire.

103
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And so so he was delighted because to him, uh, building on the hillside was much more interesting than just on, uh, and there we are.

104
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And yes, I can't tell you much more about the nursing officer.

105
00:14:57,660 --> 00:15:02,130
You I you I'm sure you find in your records, uh,

106
00:15:02,130 --> 00:15:13,920
her name and this the male secretary who is a young a very eager young man who died in a car accident locally not long afterwards.

107
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:19,650
Um, his name may have been level once again. You'll find that in the in the.

108
00:15:19,650 --> 00:15:25,080
Yes, um, yeah. Woman It's, um.

109
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Oh, we travelled, um, in, um, the Scandinavian countries with the architect.

110
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Well there was a young architect as well, um, uh, particularly to address the problem of the appearance of the hospital.

111
00:15:50,610 --> 00:15:54,810
Um, you can either have a lovely building.

112
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I could have possibly a good looking building.

113
00:15:58,740 --> 00:16:15,750
And, um, it was decided particularly Rosenberg was keen on the format we have at the moment, which is very similar to the format also used at a wing.

114
00:16:15,750 --> 00:16:29,000
A big addition, uh, at. Do I mention Thomas's, which is the one opposite the house is Thomas, Thomas is, yes, some Thomas.

115
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,750
They built a new wing, the same architect.

116
00:16:32,750 --> 00:16:44,150
Right. But, um, I think you will perhaps agree with me that if you're going to have a big building,

117
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uh, the general arrangement of the windows is, uh, is not bad.

118
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:57,320
It's about as good as you could possibly get if you're going to have a big, rather monolithic building.

119
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Um, and of course, the observant guy, anyone the was going to match as well.

120
00:17:03,740 --> 00:17:10,790
Now, I remember going to the time and I can't quite remember where it was or who it was, um,

121
00:17:10,790 --> 00:17:20,480
there was a big debate going on in the common room of the college where I was dining and on this very matter of the hospital,

122
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um, and, uh, one chair loudly and vociferously spoke up and said, uh,

123
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the only thing is excusable is that the nature of the building is that it's to be a hospital any other for any other purpose of building of that size.

124
00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:48,470
And, uh, easy visibility from Oxford itself would be quite inexcusable.

125
00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:54,800
So they felt the hospital might pass muster with, uh, General Collegiate Fox.

126
00:17:54,800 --> 00:18:02,000
But, um, now because it is on the skyline, isn't that a very good position?

127
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You see it from a long way and taking the reverse. Um, I have a very major operation.

128
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:23,130
And Brazil for a while afterwards, uh, four years ago now, and the room I was in gave you the best view of the world.

129
00:18:23,130 --> 00:18:25,130
I've had distantly.

130
00:18:25,130 --> 00:18:34,130
But, uh, as 8:00 in the morning when the sun was shining times from east, from the east, it would illuminate Oxford most wonderfully.

131
00:18:34,130 --> 00:18:42,290
It is lovely you there. And I never succeeded in getting a good photograph, although I'm very keen on, um,

132
00:18:42,290 --> 00:18:53,180
I think a lot of trees have been allowed to grow and have rather removed the, um, you know, the number of rooms you can actually see that you.

133
00:18:53,180 --> 00:19:05,120
Right. But that's the Tribune is, uh, now various people who are involved.

134
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:15,440
I'll come back to you in a moment because he's absolutely key. Uh, Rotaru, of course, I think involved she died five years ago or something like that.

135
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:22,130
But she was, of course, excellent and very helpful. And there were many conversations with him.

136
00:19:22,130 --> 00:19:31,130
Um, there really this was, um, a joint enterprise, uh, between, I suppose, three.

137
00:19:31,130 --> 00:19:38,960
You've got the, uh, Oxford Hospital itself, United Docs and hospitals or whatever they were called in those days.

138
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:45,440
The regional board and the university were were the people, people involved.

139
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:52,320
Um, now, um.

140
00:19:52,320 --> 00:20:13,740
Oddly, he was, I think, high up in the administrative staff of the regional boards, he was a very capable man his age, uh, he qualified at 42.

141
00:20:13,740 --> 00:20:19,920
I would say he would be, uh, about four years older than myself.

142
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:27,870
So at that stage, he would have been in his mid forties. In other words, at his height, yes, he had after his name.

143
00:20:27,870 --> 00:20:39,840
And I never unravelled it in capital letters and full stop D as C, which stands for Distinguished Service Cross.

144
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,730
No, I don't know what that's what he did to earn this.

145
00:20:44,730 --> 00:20:55,770
He did spend while in New Zealand, um, and he had made a bit of a speciality upon, uh, planning and commissioning hospitals.

146
00:20:55,770 --> 00:20:59,700
He was an ideal man for it. He was a likeable man.

147
00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:12,690
He was very capable. Uh, we would all agree on what was to be done and then he would translate it into words, which is absolutely vital.

148
00:21:12,690 --> 00:21:24,840
So we didn't have an awful lot of writing to do, John Beilock and myself, because he would, as I say, put it into words.

149
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:33,780
Now, I had hoped to be able to.

150
00:21:33,780 --> 00:21:40,620
Give you more than this, but this is something this is the first report of a planning team, right?

151
00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:45,960
And there's this September coming within three months.

152
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:55,920
We are and we did work extremely hard. We had got out a very important document.

153
00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:13,180
Um, I think you'll find that it's also the same.

154
00:22:13,180 --> 00:22:17,140
I can do who's William's commitment, who is with this? Oh, he will.

155
00:22:17,140 --> 00:22:21,040
He was warden of Rhodes House, a bloke called Williams. Yes.

156
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:26,000
And he was already with the first lady, Williams with his wife.

157
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:32,740
He'd been the map organiser for Montgomery and the Desert.

158
00:22:32,740 --> 00:22:39,320
And then he became boss of Rhodes House. And he was always sort of vaguely linked with the hospital.

159
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:46,000
So I think it's probably him rather than her. Later on, she had there were Williams committed under her.

160
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:53,960
And of course, I find in my diary his name keeps cropping up and he was obviously involved a good British business.

161
00:22:53,960 --> 00:23:06,830
So I'm fairly sure you're fine. But I to be absolutely sure the.

162
00:23:06,830 --> 00:23:19,160
They say and I will continue sort of index at the front that this is.

163
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:26,420
Our second report be the second report of the Williams family is OK.

164
00:23:26,420 --> 00:23:31,460
I think it does also contain a third report involved in this.

165
00:23:31,460 --> 00:23:41,150
But anyway, this is the first and second reports of the is marvellous.

166
00:23:41,150 --> 00:23:51,050
And I'm pretty sure, although it's not dated and it doesn't give any names, um, I'm pretty sure that that's the one area.

167
00:23:51,050 --> 00:23:55,640
Yes, it does, doesn't it? Yes, right. You're welcome.

168
00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:07,350
Very happy here. All right. So, yeah, I find it amusingly a bit of paper, which is a paper.

169
00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:13,820
They may relate to that. And I don't know whose handwriting this is.

170
00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:21,710
Um, I noticed that there are no private beds mentioned for mental hospital or manor house.

171
00:24:21,710 --> 00:24:28,640
Um, it is inevitable that provision should be made for this for your deliberations.

172
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,170
Not tonight. So, uh, but anyway. Yes, we did.

173
00:24:33,170 --> 00:24:41,300
Uh, I've forgotten what we did do, but it wasn't a particularly big priority provision.

174
00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:45,140
Ted Maloney might have written that. And he could be.

175
00:24:45,140 --> 00:24:48,640
It could be. I haven't seen it.

176
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:53,600
Ted was one of the guards who didn't want to see it. Right. I could be wrong.

177
00:24:53,600 --> 00:25:02,090
Quite wrong about that. He may have had an open mind. Uh, Tim, still, I'm pretty sure I would have thought it was a good idea.

178
00:25:02,090 --> 00:25:06,230
Yes, he was a good man.

179
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:12,470
Thank you very much. Um, no other people on the scene.

180
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:21,110
I'm afraid you'll find that nearly everyone who is on the scene and actively involved have died, passed on.

181
00:25:21,110 --> 00:27:14,080
Um, now somebody who who is probably alive and may have been involved was it wasn't Megan to Mitzy Megan term, as I call it, but I mean.

182
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:24,400
All things to see now, I grew up thinking that people that for the manor house, Pickering was a supporter.

183
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:29,200
Well, Richard Russell was a great Churchill advocate. You could be right.

184
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,040
No joke. Oh, Churchill advocate against the new hospital.

185
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:40,720
Yes, I would have it on the judges, but probably to keep both the infirmary going.

186
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:51,130
Right. Because that was the other option, of course, to keep the refurbish the infirmary in some way and have, you know, the two sides.

187
00:27:51,130 --> 00:28:02,370
Yes, there could well be. And of course, all these sorts of variations and things were rather vehemently discussed.

188
00:28:02,370 --> 00:28:10,420
I mean, why don't you people who didn't speak to me for about ten years, I should have called.

189
00:28:10,420 --> 00:28:19,540
But anyway, um, I think Ted Williams probably is the other person you mentioned about Richard Russell's reference.

190
00:28:19,540 --> 00:28:25,150
Pickering was Formentera down to 30 years, and Ritchie wanted things on the Churchill.

191
00:28:25,150 --> 00:28:33,280
Yes. Well, it was a perfectly valid belief that it would be the better side.

192
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:43,420
But looking back at it all now, I'm sure it was better to, um, use the bad sites.

193
00:28:43,420 --> 00:28:54,460
And the Churchill site is still largely available and has already started the process of expansion or it hasn't.

194
00:28:54,460 --> 00:28:58,300
Incidentally, as an aside, you know, the big new building.

195
00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:03,610
Have you been into the cancer centre? Yes, I have. Vastly oversized.

196
00:29:03,610 --> 00:29:11,440
Vastly over extravagant. Yes, it's built with private money and we rent it with a huge sum for other people.

197
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:19,420
One of the epiphytes is, um, now, incidentally, it has, however, two interesting architectural features.

198
00:29:19,420 --> 00:29:24,520
One is the board right down so they get hot water from 50 feet under.

199
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:30,730
And the other is we've got solar panels on the roof, which provides hot water.

200
00:29:30,730 --> 00:29:41,020
Well, that's good. So I mean, cost anyway. And interestingly, that's not really there, except that, uh,

201
00:29:41,020 --> 00:29:49,060
it was probably an argument that it was a good idea to leave the church aside as a reserve, as it were.

202
00:29:49,060 --> 00:30:00,940
Yes. Um, perhaps some time, which I just mentioned, you know, looking at what were the defects,

203
00:30:00,940 --> 00:30:06,880
looking at it now, how long is it since we moved up into it?

204
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:13,690
Was it about nineteen for the main move, I think was about nineteen eighty about B, right.

205
00:30:13,690 --> 00:30:17,620
I can't move but we are looking at it now if you like.

206
00:30:17,620 --> 00:30:28,240
Thirty years or whatever it is later. Um car parking completely flummoxed us as they expected.

207
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:35,530
Um I hadn't expected anything like the huge deluge of cars to be parked.

208
00:30:35,530 --> 00:30:39,370
Uh they had their eyes on what was called the camel's hair.

209
00:30:39,370 --> 00:30:43,960
Head on the map you can see a camel and uh,

210
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:51,760
right there on the little spot where they talked about building a multistorey car park where it was tucked away and outside,

211
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:59,050
but they've probably been insufficient. So that was one thing that drove it, took their breath away.

212
00:30:59,050 --> 00:31:07,720
That was a disappointment that we didn't succeed in getting a much better access into the hospital,

213
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,520
possibly directly from the normal, as we had earlier on bypass.

214
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:22,750
Uh, but I think the local council refused to sanction that because they felt it would upset,

215
00:31:22,750 --> 00:31:27,090
you know, maybe fifty houses might be displaced or something like this,

216
00:31:27,090 --> 00:31:36,400
um, because there was a bit of an outcry when they had to take off, uh, half the garden, the people, the present entrance.

217
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,820
Yes. But I was so there we are.

218
00:31:40,820 --> 00:31:58,810
Um, the, um, another thing which was disappointing, we had hoped to have, um, bigger living quarters for nurses and particularly for doctors,

219
00:31:58,810 --> 00:32:04,690
uh, um, but they weren't able to get more than a comparatively small number.

220
00:32:04,690 --> 00:32:09,850
And so that that had to fall by the wayside. Other things were done.

221
00:32:09,850 --> 00:32:13,760
There was like a colony says all the windows had wooden.

222
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:24,160
Frames instead of everlasting aluminium or something like that, that may or may not be a very heavy maintenance, but yes, I don't know.

223
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:35,830
But all in all, I would say, apart from various gaffes that have occurred, um, it has lent itself, as we hoped it would,

224
00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:44,650
to considerable expansion, as you did cardiac unit was founded and then the children had something else done.

225
00:32:44,650 --> 00:32:49,120
His latest itself, as we had hoped to expansion like that.

226
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:56,110
And it is a building which is capable of considerable internal modification.

227
00:32:56,110 --> 00:33:04,240
And, uh, uh, the only part that I feel I suffered from this when I myself was the patient, uh,

228
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:19,810
left me unhappy was the rather dungeon effect and claustrophobic, um, atmosphere of, um, the lowest-level with a radio out much of the radio.

229
00:33:19,810 --> 00:33:31,030
And, uh, if you're a patient, um, there was one occasion when I was feeling very ill and they wanted to X-ray me and I told them there was no need to.

230
00:33:31,030 --> 00:33:39,460
They said, well, you really ought to be down there. And as soon as we got down there and I was parked there on the stretcher, uh,

231
00:33:39,460 --> 00:33:44,110
they announced loudly that they were very sorry that it was going to be quite a long

232
00:33:44,110 --> 00:33:49,330
delay up to now because it had been a traffic accident and people were coming in.

233
00:33:49,330 --> 00:33:57,580
And I found myself in a large, uh, semi dark room, um, filled with people.

234
00:33:57,580 --> 00:34:05,770
And the chap next to me was coughing and coughing and, you know, really highly productive cough.

235
00:34:05,770 --> 00:34:09,320
Um, so in the end, I couldn't stand it any longer.

236
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:19,210
So I called Nurse over to look. Could I remind you that I used to be a senior surgeon here in this hospital and I do not want to have this X-ray.

237
00:34:19,210 --> 00:34:32,300
Please take me back to my ward. And she looked to tropical systems that you spoke to the sister and I was very soon returned for good.

238
00:34:32,300 --> 00:38:17,670
And of course, the fact that.

239
00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:22,170
A little bit of but he should have not been more cooperative,

240
00:38:22,170 --> 00:38:35,620
but there was one of the difficulties I have no doubt one could think of is that travelling between the two hospitals wasn't too difficult.

241
00:38:35,620 --> 00:38:48,480
If you had your own wheels is easy enough. And I think it was the bus service is fairly good for patients.

242
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,620
Now, when they built the main bit of the phase two,

243
00:38:52,620 --> 00:38:58,410
when they built face to the story always was the winter of discontent around

244
00:38:58,410 --> 00:39:04,110
that time of year and that they had to cut down because of a shortage of money.

245
00:39:04,110 --> 00:39:08,790
They had to, you know, not do some things they were intending to.

246
00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:12,570
Was that a big issue or when was that?

247
00:39:12,570 --> 00:39:23,010
Well, this should be about eighty two, I guess when they're doing phase two, it was when the Catalan government were facing the unions.

248
00:39:23,010 --> 00:39:27,390
That's so hard time. What did we have to cut down on?

249
00:39:27,390 --> 00:39:35,520
Well, I don't know what they did cut, but I remember hearing and it may have just been gossip that because of the shortage of money,

250
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:40,020
they'd had to pare back down the plans on the outside.

251
00:39:40,020 --> 00:39:46,020
I think give us some of it was the cladding wasn't as good as it was meant to be, I believe.

252
00:39:46,020 --> 00:39:50,760
Could have been, um, I can't reliably remember that.

253
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:57,120
And there were upsets over the years. Where how long did you stay on the planning team, as it were?

254
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:04,170
Well, because of home difficulties, I gave up.

255
00:40:04,170 --> 00:40:12,480
I think it just a year I was planning July, but we did in that time frame all the vital decisions to the site.

256
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:20,220
The architect and the university should have first claim on the site.

257
00:40:20,220 --> 00:40:33,540
Indeed, one little detail, which was selfish perhaps in the planning phase, and this was later when Hudson was on board,

258
00:40:33,540 --> 00:40:43,140
um, they were beginning to plan the interior arrangements and they were good with all the surgeons,

259
00:40:43,140 --> 00:40:53,730
um, instead of giving them separate offices to have them all in one big room or there was a name for not jumbo open,

260
00:40:53,730 --> 00:41:04,680
open, open plan, something like that. And I very vociferously urged Hodgson, who was in favour of the open plan.

261
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,540
I remember he was the least. Yeah.

262
00:41:06,540 --> 00:41:16,290
Didn't have the same requirements as we did that surgeons must have an individual office and they did on that floor.

263
00:41:16,290 --> 00:41:29,340
They built a number of compartments as each of the surgeons, if I think six of us altogether had their own room where the secretary could work.

264
00:41:29,340 --> 00:41:36,480
Were all your own records kept? And that worked out very well at that time.

265
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:42,480
And who followed you on the planning team as a surgeon who succeeded your prep?

266
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,650
The surgeon didn't know to and it.

267
00:41:46,650 --> 00:41:51,480
Right. I get it. Yes. I don't know where they put John Badenoch stayed on.

268
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:56,250
It didn't really do. Yes, because remember, he was very involved.

269
00:41:56,250 --> 00:42:03,840
He was a tower of strength and wisdom. You felt that. So he would protect the university and the physicians.

270
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:15,670
Yes. Their interests. Um, did you find the physicians had adequate facilities when they moved into jail to.

271
00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:22,050
Uh, yes, I did. Said by and large, yes. I mean, the outpatients I really felt were much better.

272
00:42:22,050 --> 00:42:24,870
Yes, the wards had improvements.

273
00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:36,420
Um, the great difference was because of the lift of the high building, you used to go up and down in the lift and never meet anybody in the area.

274
00:42:36,420 --> 00:42:40,830
Down the long corridors, you would be meeting people and doing business.

275
00:42:40,830 --> 00:42:45,270
And it was interesting how that did make it a yes. Yes, no.

276
00:42:45,270 --> 00:42:50,580
I can remember with the surgeons meeting, one of the surgeons raised a certain point.

277
00:42:50,580 --> 00:42:54,750
They I said to him very firmly, this is Malcolm go.

278
00:42:54,750 --> 00:43:00,660
Oh, yes. Um, look, I always walk the five flights.

279
00:43:00,660 --> 00:43:05,580
We are going up five flights. It's good for your health. Very good.

280
00:43:05,580 --> 00:43:17,310
And he said, I prefer to get my exercise by playing golf and I had to do seven seventy nine.

281
00:43:17,310 --> 00:43:27,430
True, it is, I think nowadays you would want to build that into your life, and one of the reasons why I'm glad in this house we're not a cottage, we.

282
00:43:27,430 --> 00:43:34,230
Yes. You have to go upstairs at the drop of a hat to probably go with that [INAUDIBLE].

283
00:43:34,230 --> 00:43:40,110
Then I got back to doing the stairs towards the end because I thought it was good exercise.

284
00:43:40,110 --> 00:43:45,960
I quite agree. But the professorial units, the surgical unit was very good.

285
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,760
And I think the medical profession, you know, they had lots of space.

286
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:58,530
And of course, Peter expanded out and got a much bigger staff. And Peter Morrison did that very well.

287
00:43:58,530 --> 00:44:06,990
Now, the medical artists. Yes, full detail, they they had much better facilities and they ever had before near the restaurant.

288
00:44:06,990 --> 00:44:15,320
I'll tell you one thing which. Uh.

289
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:30,710
Yes, at the RBI, they had excellent post rooms with excellent facilities for students to see and at the Redcliff,

290
00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:35,540
the facilities with Rob Smith of were privative.

291
00:44:35,540 --> 00:44:40,850
You know, I remember going to. Yes, and it's terrible.

292
00:44:40,850 --> 00:44:54,920
When I first went there, it was a surgical case. And, uh, Rod Smith is doing the PM and he was furious because I, as I had been used to, uh,

293
00:44:54,920 --> 00:45:00,380
started saying a lot about the case, what we had expected and what we might find here.

294
00:45:00,380 --> 00:45:05,930
And he was curious because he wanted to hold the fort right away.

295
00:45:05,930 --> 00:45:14,210
But anyway, so really and very odoriferous if you are sensitive, Beltsville and they Redcliffs,

296
00:45:14,210 --> 00:45:23,750
first of all, the facilities and the ability to demonstrate them to surgeons was very unfair.

297
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:29,120
It was. It was. And I'm just trying to think about I don't think they all that good in the end.

298
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:37,080
You know, that's what I was thinking, too. They weren't just trying to think where one win because the postmortems guys,

299
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:48,470
they had very good facilities and one would often have a Mars bar and be quietly crunching in the back of a group of students on a,

300
00:45:48,470 --> 00:46:01,340
you know, watching post post-mortem. And they were brilliantly displayed, um, postmortems by medical registrars,

301
00:46:01,340 --> 00:46:16,880
usually senior registrars and your cars, and drive it in the driver's side, um, saying yes.

302
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,110
Yes. Well, display, of course, brilliantly.

303
00:46:21,110 --> 00:46:26,210
Keith Simpson, have you ever heard of them? I worked closely with her for a while.

304
00:46:26,210 --> 00:46:29,600
He was absolutely superb and he was very funny.

305
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:37,580
Yes. In a very weird stories, the cat bloody footprints.

306
00:46:37,580 --> 00:46:42,020
So I know he was a wonderful character. He really was.

307
00:46:42,020 --> 00:46:48,080
Um, and he always he was impressed with the students because he always had a good

308
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:54,320
looking secretary in the with him busy typing because of course they didn't have,

309
00:46:54,320 --> 00:47:01,340
um, you know, microphone. I think I know all sorts of things there.

310
00:47:01,340 --> 00:47:06,020
But anyways. But those guys guys had a great place in the area.

311
00:47:06,020 --> 00:47:15,320
It was true. Oh yes. Um, so what was the surgical view of Pickering and.

312
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:26,690
Oh there's always great respect. Yes. Yes. Um, no, I think those are you talking about in the new hospital generally.

313
00:47:26,690 --> 00:47:30,500
Generally when he came in he was held in high esteem. Yes.

314
00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:33,920
Um, he was in favour of a new hospital, wasn't he?

315
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:38,330
He was, uh, and he was always a great pleasure to be an examiner.

316
00:47:38,330 --> 00:47:43,190
I mean, he had all the sort of examiners lunch afterwards on the last day or something.

317
00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:59,180
Uh, and you tell the story, for instance, of how they had a full orchestra, um, playing the eighteen Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture Musical.

318
00:47:59,180 --> 00:48:07,850
Um, and instead of using drums for the cannon, they brought in extra artillery pieces.

319
00:48:07,850 --> 00:48:22,370
Everyone had predicted the Chatel when the call, but it didn't bring difficult Pickering story that uh oh, he was a super guy.

320
00:48:22,370 --> 00:48:36,990
Yes. Um. No, I think it's been a great scene.

321
00:48:36,990 --> 00:48:43,350
I used to imagine it still is. Oh, I think seriously, we used to have outstanding characters.

322
00:48:43,350 --> 00:48:57,930
Um, I was going to and I'm sure they exist today, but I was just going to digress a little bit and see how I did find it.

323
00:48:57,930 --> 00:49:12,000
A disappointment in the attitude often of consultants coming in to advise upon me when I had my orders and

324
00:49:12,000 --> 00:51:22,520
how some would willingly come and make no charge or whatever and others would charge absolutely maximums and.

325
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:26,350
To do those things you need.

326
00:51:26,350 --> 00:51:38,950
David, what you need. Well, shall I do that in.

327
00:51:38,950 --> 00:51:46,450
Again, I'll get the milk. Um, do you do with your wife?

328
00:51:46,450 --> 00:51:50,930
Yes. Did you work in the Redcliff? Yes.

329
00:51:50,930 --> 00:51:56,050
She was haematologists all ten years.

330
00:51:56,050 --> 00:52:01,570
Yes. Yes, please. Yes, fine. Thank you. She was a neurologist.

331
00:52:01,570 --> 00:52:05,860
Oh yes. She really wanted to do chest disease in London.

332
00:52:05,860 --> 00:52:11,830
Yes. And she was at the wrong time. Yes. And they said you ought to do more about tuberculosis.

333
00:52:11,830 --> 00:52:20,020
So she came down to Oxford to do the M.D. with honours with the tuberculosis meningitis.

334
00:52:20,020 --> 00:52:25,330
Yes. Yes, she did that. And by that time she was a neurologist, you know what I mean?

335
00:52:25,330 --> 00:52:28,810
Because she stayed in Oxford because we were getting married.

336
00:52:28,810 --> 00:52:38,230
And so she was in the neurology department with Richard and she was either at Stoke Mandeville or, you know, I mean, the Churchill.

337
00:52:38,230 --> 00:52:43,120
Then later she was with Charles with a migraine clinic, that sort of thing.

338
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:49,060
And then she became a paediatric neurologist, child, neurologist, paediatric allergist.

339
00:52:49,060 --> 00:52:54,460
Did she know? She did. Kidnappee Oh, yes.

340
00:52:54,460 --> 00:55:23,950
Wichai who died years in. No, indeed she did.

341
00:55:23,950 --> 00:55:31,420
No, I've no idea because many of your diabetic cases forfeits amputation or is.

342
00:55:31,420 --> 00:55:34,960
I've got to cut it down by the ankle. Yes, sure.

343
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:35,830
But I mean,

344
00:55:35,830 --> 00:55:44,410
we always recommend not to go higher than below the knee as aggressive strokes with limb fittings that it didn't particularly like gritty strokes,

345
00:55:44,410 --> 00:55:49,480
but they were very useful because the patient getting out of bed tonight could at a pinch

346
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:56,420
sort of put that on the chair across the room as it was much more used to the patient.

347
00:55:56,420 --> 00:56:07,120
Yes, we really don't know what they're doing now, but I always wished I could have had a hand in between if and hers was hers.

348
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:11,620
Were done for diabetics. Yes, they were right as they were.

349
00:56:11,620 --> 00:56:15,540
And then there was Robert that they too I mean, he got into trouble, didn't he?

350
00:56:15,540 --> 00:56:20,170
I don't know what happened. I don't know.

351
00:56:20,170 --> 00:56:29,260
But it was pretty rare to lose a limb for I think he had iliac occlusion, cultural clues, right?

352
00:56:29,260 --> 00:56:34,480
Yes. Well, shall I stop this?

353
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:48,060
Because you've really given us a lovely umbrella. But if you think of other things just.

354
00:56:48,060 --> 00:57:00,380
Tissue hospital, we became one of the few bull's eyes is I think it's a very fine hospital visits there.

355
00:57:00,380 --> 00:57:05,070
I always had I felt very sorry for Westby.

356
00:57:05,070 --> 00:57:09,570
Yes, uh, I did. Well, I don't quite know.

357
00:57:09,570 --> 00:57:14,520
I don't quite know what happened. But he was a very good surgeon.

358
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,680
He was very unlucky that all this arose.

359
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:25,560
Um, but at the same time, if he wasn't getting the numbers, maybe there was a case of centralising them somewhere else.

360
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:30,900
Yes. But I think there's no doubt about his ability as a surgeon.

361
00:57:30,900 --> 00:57:40,390
But having said that, it does require a very special ability to operate on a particular instrument with heart disease.

362
00:57:40,390 --> 00:57:42,240
For sure. Six month old.

363
00:57:42,240 --> 00:58:02,960
And, um, but I did, uh, his name came up, um, in the election of surgeons to become representatives in the Royal College of Surgeons,

364
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:07,050
members of the Council of the Royal College of Surgeons or whatever.

365
00:58:07,050 --> 00:58:12,340
And, um, and to my surprise, I looked through I didn't know any of them.

366
00:58:12,340 --> 00:58:18,480
Well, they pointed boogying. If you George and I were all surprised they even offered me.

367
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:25,830
But I believe in trying to take my interest. But then I noticed his name right at the end.

368
00:58:25,830 --> 00:58:30,360
So I support this man. So I have supported him.

369
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:35,220
And I I think he's got some very interesting ideas that you get in know.

370
00:58:35,220 --> 00:58:43,880
Oh, no, it hasn't been decided right now because he did spend a lot of time on this cardiac pump and it was still hard.

371
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:48,030
Well, that's yes. I mean, it could be very important. Uh.

372
00:58:48,030 --> 00:58:52,380
Well, I think the technology is not quite there that. No, he's done a lot.

373
00:58:52,380 --> 00:58:56,310
But the main issue has been on children. Yes.

374
00:58:56,310 --> 00:59:04,350
Very young infants ideology. Um, but so I hope he thrives.

375
00:59:04,350 --> 00:59:08,370
It's been a great asset. I think he's right.

376
00:59:08,370 --> 00:59:13,560
He should have. And I think he has now got another surgeon with him, hasn't he?

377
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:19,050
Well, at one time there were five of them, the five codecs, and that was one of the troubles.

378
00:59:19,050 --> 00:59:23,250
There were too many for the number. The patient doesn't have it. So they all started squabbling.

379
00:59:23,250 --> 00:59:30,300
Yes. Um, but it was Westerby and Pipe, an Indian who I like very much.

380
00:59:30,300 --> 00:59:36,120
They were the two for some time. And then they were going to expand and they got these other three.

381
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:45,210
And then it didn't happen, as it were. Yes. And there were troubles with one or two of them, you know, the wrong instruments or the wrong operations.

382
00:59:45,210 --> 00:59:53,810
I didn't know if it was a sad business.

383
00:59:53,810 --> 01:00:02,540
That remains that name, run a very good car, do they do the service excellent?

384
01:00:02,540 --> 01:00:09,660
Yes, absolutely. And the transplantations developed well, I think and yes, they do.

385
01:00:09,660 --> 01:00:14,390
They did not. Oh, no, sorry.

386
01:00:14,390 --> 01:00:20,570
I don't do any I honestly don't know. They didn't used to, but I don't know now.

387
01:00:20,570 --> 01:00:26,840
But kidney and pancreas have gone well, you know.

388
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:34,930
Have they. Well, kidney certainly, you know, real success. You know, pancreas about as well as anybody else, which is very good really.

389
01:00:34,930 --> 01:00:39,950
Um, no, I haven't recently seen their results numbers.

390
01:00:39,950 --> 01:00:50,570
Um, but, um, Peter Morris set up a good unit there and I imagine they continue no renal, um,

391
01:00:50,570 --> 01:01:00,650
think things terribly important because it is something like nine times out of ten will work for a prolonged period and um and save the day.

392
01:01:00,650 --> 01:01:35,910
Um I, I was it I was I had to sign up for something and they also driving licence.

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01:01:35,910 --> 01:01:43,249
But again, to get well, I think I'll stop this now, because there's been a super well, I will talk.