1 00:00:00,540 --> 00:00:04,950 Hello and welcome to Regional Classics, a podcast from the University of Oxford, 2 00:00:04,950 --> 00:00:11,820 which reflects and celebrates the diverse voices of Oxford classicists past and present from different parts of the UK. 3 00:00:11,820 --> 00:00:14,760 All the while creating thought provoking conversations, 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:20,820 breaking down barriers and showing that if you want to study the ancient world, any aspect of politics, 5 00:00:20,820 --> 00:00:26,880 history, art, science, literature, culture and much more than you can observe, 6 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,350 classicists do not and need not come from only a narrow cross-section of society. 7 00:00:31,350 --> 00:00:38,130 In this episode, I'm delighted to be joined by three Scottish classicists: Professor Bill Allan, 8 00:00:38,130 --> 00:00:43,530 a fellow and tutor at University College, where he specialises in Greek literature. 9 00:00:43,530 --> 00:00:51,180 Dr Arlene Holmes Henderson, a St Hilda's Classics alumna and now a senior research fellow in classics education, 10 00:00:51,180 --> 00:00:56,190 and Jessica Curry, a third year classics undergraduate at St Hugh's College. 11 00:00:56,190 --> 00:01:02,580 Thank you all very much for joining me today. So, Bill, I know that you're from Fife originally. 12 00:01:02,580 --> 00:01:08,580 Can you remember when you first became aware of the study of the ancient world? 13 00:01:08,580 --> 00:01:20,460 Yep, I grew up in a small village in Fife, Bowhill, a former coal mining area, and then went to high school in Glenrothes, Glenrothes High School. 14 00:01:20,460 --> 00:01:29,100 And in those days, there was still the possibility of doing Latin and classical studies at the school. 15 00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:35,130 That's no longer the case now because since my teacher retired, he hasn't been replaced by a classics teacher. 16 00:01:35,130 --> 00:01:42,150 But at the time I was very lucky to get the chance to do Latin as well as classical studies. 17 00:01:42,150 --> 00:01:48,660 And then I was sort of headhunted to do Greek as a kind of experiment. 18 00:01:48,660 --> 00:01:57,000 And so I got to do Greek kind of off-curriculum. And I was further headhunted by the religious studies teacher to do classical Hebrew. 19 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:05,430 And so I did classical Hebrew A-level in the lunch hour. So although it was a state school, it was it was you know, 20 00:02:05,430 --> 00:02:17,430 there were a few teachers there who were very academically oriented and they spotted a talent for languages and me and were very kind and supportive. 21 00:02:17,430 --> 00:02:18,600 And as a result, 22 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:27,360 I became the first person in my family to go to university and and I'm able to pay the mortgage from teaching ancient Greek and Latin, 23 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:33,970 which is pretty cool. So on the whole, it's been a story with a pretty happy ending. 24 00:02:33,970 --> 00:02:38,490 I'm very glad to hear it and fascinating, too, that you got that chance to study Hebrew as well. 25 00:02:38,490 --> 00:02:43,240 And Arlene, how about you? Yeah, but pretty similar to Bill, actually. 26 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:48,430 And so I grew up in South Lanarkshire, which is near Glasgow. 27 00:02:48,430 --> 00:02:52,060 So I come from a village about 20 miles south of Glasgow. 28 00:02:52,060 --> 00:02:59,920 And I had absolutely no access to the study of the ancient world whatsoever until I got to high school. 29 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:08,140 And on my very first day of high school, I had Latin lesson and I opened up Ecce Romani, which was the course that was used. 30 00:03:08,140 --> 00:03:14,290 That's a publication by the Scottish Classics Group, which was used a lot in Scottish high schools. 31 00:03:14,290 --> 00:03:31,030 And I met Cornelia and Flavia and Marcus and I just loved Latin and I just read the first couple of sentences of this Latin text book and I got it. 32 00:03:31,030 --> 00:03:35,350 I loved being able to spot some English words and the Latin words. 33 00:03:35,350 --> 00:03:44,830 And unlike many of the people that I have spoken to since it had exposure to classical mythology in primary school, 34 00:03:44,830 --> 00:03:55,600 having had absolutely none of that, I had my first way in as an 11 year old at high school. 35 00:03:55,600 --> 00:04:01,000 And for me, that was a voyage of discovery into the classical world. 36 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:06,160 And I have never looked back. Fantastic. And Jess? sure. 37 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:13,040 So, yeah, I'm also from kind of near Glasgow, I'm from Inverclyde and I'm from a village there, 38 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,600 and my first exposure to classics was actually kind of similar. 39 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:22,520 Again, was also from getting to study it at high school. 40 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,990 And we had the choice of Latin or classical studies. I'm not sure if I should say on this. 41 00:04:26,990 --> 00:04:34,280 I actually had the opposite experience. I think I was happier not doing Latin and I'd ask the tutor, the teacher, 42 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:39,770 if we could switch to classical studies because I didn't immediately connect with the language. 43 00:04:39,770 --> 00:04: But then it was halfway through my kind of national 5 course and we started studying Catullus. 44 00:04:45,050 --> 00:04:51,890 And so we started being able to actually translate with the Latin that we were learning, and that was when I really got hooked on it. 45 00:04:51,890 --> 00:05:00,140 So, yeah, that was great. I should say that I study at St Hugh's with someone who didn't do classical civilisations or Latin, however. 46 00:05:00,140 --> 00:05:04,250 So I feel like we've all kind of come from different backgrounds of studying at the school. 47 00:05:04,250 --> 00:05:08,510 But I know those people at Oxford to do either. Well, exactly. 48 00:05:08,510 --> 00:05:15,510 And I mean, certainly at the moment, I think less than one percent of Scottish students do have access to classical subjects at school. 49 00:05:15,510 --> 00:05:22,940 So it's something that is quite rare. Firstly, what are your thoughts on that and how that provision potentially could be improved? 50 00:05:22,940 --> 00:05:27,890 But also, what would you say to those students that haven't got the opportunity to study to school right now, 51 00:05:27,890 --> 00:05:35,510 but might still want to be able to access the ancient world in some way and find that passion for it that you've all found at various points? 52 00:05:35,510 --> 00:05:40,430 Well, I think I mentioned earlier about my teacher retiring and not being replaced. 53 00:05:40,430 --> 00:05:48,620 And as I understand it, the PGDE in Latin and in the classical studies has been reintroduced to Moray House in Edinburgh. 54 00:05:48,620 --> 00:05:55,220 Is that really true - Arlene? You know more about this than I do. I think the hope is that it's going to be reintroduced. 55 00:05:55,220 --> 00:05:57,960 I think it's up for consultation at the moment. 56 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:04,340 So there'll be a great step forward, because obviously when headmasters and headmistress see people retiring and they think, 57 00:06:04,340 --> 00:06:10,340 oh, well, we'll have to play some of the classes, you need a stock of well qualified teachers there to fill the gaps. 58 00:06:10,340 --> 00:06:19,220 So if we can produce more in Scotland and not not import them or rely on important classics teachers, 59 00:06:19,220 --> 00:06:25,490 they'll certainly help maybe even increase the number of people teaching Latin or the classical studies, in Scottish high schools. 60 00:06:25,490 --> 00:06:29,780 And I'd say to people who are thinking of or who are interested in classics and who haven't had a chance to 61 00:06:29,780 --> 00:06:38,060 do it at school because not everybody is as lucky as we were to have Latin or Greek or classical studies. 62 00:06:38,060 --> 00:06:42,880 At high school is read widely yourself, obviously study, 63 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,930 the subjects that you most enjoy at school that are available and then apply for classics just the same, 64 00:06:47,930 --> 00:06:55,940 because every university has the equivalent of what we call course 2 in Oxford where you begin Latin or Greek from scratch. 65 00:06:55,940 --> 00:07:05,360 And some of my best students, I've been a tutor for 17 years at Univ and in the 17 years some of my best students have been course 2 students. 66 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,810 You know, by the time they do the first public exams, after five terms, 67 00:07:08,810 --> 00:07:13,370 they've caught up with and overtaken people who've been to Eton or Westminster. 68 00:07:13,370 --> 00:07:17,090 They go on. I've even had a student who got the top first. 69 00:07:17,090 --> 00:07:23,360 in Greats and she was a course 2 student. So, you know, with hard work and dedication and enthusiasm. 70 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:29,180 You can absolutely thrive in in any university in Britain. 71 00:07:29,180 --> 00:07:39,170 I would say on this question of access to classics in Scotland, there's a real disconnect between policy ambition and policy delivery. 72 00:07:39,170 --> 00:07:48,590 So I was involved with curriculum for excellence in the early stages when I was actually a high school teacher in Scotland in the mid 2000s. 73 00:07:48,590 --> 00:07:55,700 And the fact of the matter is that Classics actually is considered a mainstream subject in curriculum for excellence. 74 00:07:55,700 --> 00:08:01,550 So Latin is a language alongside modern languages in curriculum for excellence. 75 00:08:01,550 --> 00:08:03,860 There is no distinction made for Latin. 76 00:08:03,860 --> 00:08:14,600 And so we have a real possibility for Latin to be rolled out widely in Scottish schools because the policy support is there. in the same breath, 77 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:22,860 Classical studies is a social subject in curriculum for excellence alongside modern studies, history and other social subjects. 78 00:08:22,860 --> 00:08:31,280 So at a policy level, there is absolutely no reason why every child in Scotland should not have access to classical studies. 79 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:42,170 Bill is absolutely right. The problem lies with the lack of supply of qualified teachers, with registration, with the general teaching council of Scotland. 80 00:08:42,170 --> 00:08:49,070 So until we have an investment at strategic level in the training of teachers in order 81 00:08:49,070 --> 00:08:56,240 to roll out the supply of teachers to teach Latin and classical studies in Scotland, 82 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:03,180 we are not going to be able to fulfil that policy ambition and the withdrawal of classical Greek by the Scottish 83 00:09:03,180 --> 00:09:03,970 Qualifications Authority, 84 00:09:03,970 --> 00:09:11,730 means that it is simply impossible for young people in Scotland to sit qualifications in classical Greek with SQA and they, 85 00:09:11,730 --> 00:09:16,170 maybe have to sit the English classical Greek qualification. 86 00:09:16,170 --> 00:09:20,760 And that obviously is a really sad set of circumstances. 87 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:27,840 It is indeed. But what about at the primary level? Well, this is where there's actually some good news to report. 88 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:37,050 We have been working hard with the Classical Association of Scotland and the Scottish National Centre for 89 00:09:37,050 --> 00:09:46,320 Languages (SILT) to ways access to Latin using Scotland's one plus two languages policy, 90 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:53,760 which allows for the teaching of Latin as the third language in Scottish primary schools. 91 00:09:53,760 --> 00:10:01,560 Scottish pupils as their first language will have either English or Gaelic as their second language. 92 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:09,870 They have the opportunity to learn any other modern language, and they will also study before they go to high school. 93 00:10:09,870 --> 00:10:17,250 A third language, which could be any other modern language, or they have the option of studying an ancient language. 94 00:10:17,250 --> 00:10:26,190 And we've had a lot of success in widening access to the study of Latin, particularly in certain local authorities. 95 00:10:26,190 --> 00:10:32,370 And I would say that Glasgow City Council has been a real pioneer in this regard. 96 00:10:32,370 --> 00:10:38,940 They were one of the first local authorities to work with the Classical Association of Scotland to roll out the teaching of 97 00:10:38,940 --> 00:10:48,660 Latin in primary schools in areas that previously didn't offer Latin as a language to pupils in those schools. 98 00:10:48,660 --> 00:10:55,260 And we've seen really positive feedback from pupils and from parents, from teachers, 99 00:10:55,260 --> 00:11:05,250 from school leavers who are delighted that young people have the opportunity to study an ancient language that their parents 100 00:11:05,250 --> 00:11:11,850 and their teachers didn't have that opportunity to study when they were at school in Glasgow or in other parts of Scotland. 101 00:11:11,850 --> 00:11:21,660 So, you know, we've talked about some of the disappointing aspects in terms of access to classics in Scottish schools today. 102 00:11:21,660 --> 00:11:26,250 But I think that things are changing at the primary level. 103 00:11:26,250 --> 00:11:33,990 And so there is a glimmer of hope on the horizon thanks to the one plus two languages policy at the primary level. 104 00:11:33,990 --> 00:11:41,250 Fantastic. I'm interested in what led the three of you then to choose to come to English universities. 105 00:11:41,250 --> 00:11:45,360 I mean, in Scotland, obviously, there is the difference in the funding situation. 106 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:52,440 So perhaps there had to be greater external reasons for you to come to study in England and then later to teach and work there. 107 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:59,160 What were those journeys like for the three of you? So in terms of, I guess, the reasons I wanted to apply to Oxford, 108 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,300 I think it was quite intuitive to me once I knew that I really wanted to study 109 00:12:03,300 --> 00:12:07,290 classics and I did know I really wanted to study classics by fifth year. 110 00:12:07,290 --> 00:12:14,400 I think I just kind of fell in love with the subject. And I think as someone who wasn't sure entirely what they wanted to do after university, 111 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:20,170 it was kind of this perfect mash up of of my interests of literature and history and almost politics in a way as well, 112 00:12:20,170 --> 00:12:27,240 except that's quite a long time ago. And then in terms of my process of applying to Oxford, 113 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:35,100 I was really lucky in that my Latin teacher was really supportive and kind of gave me a practise interview, which was really helpful. 114 00:12:35,100 --> 00:12:41,490 My family were really excited for me to apply. So again, like all of these things that helped with the process. 115 00:12:41,490 --> 00:12:50,250 And I think the other thing which propelled me was I think I was I think I was lucky to apply to St Hugh's as well at the time, 116 00:12:50,250 --> 00:12:57,300 just insofar as I found the interview, I think Hugh's is used to having people who maybe perform. 117 00:12:57,300 --> 00:13:04,500 This is not true of all Scottish people. But for me, as I was coming, my Latin was less strong than my essay subjects. 118 00:13:04,500 --> 00:13:11,910 And I think St Hugh's was very interested to have someone who might not necessarily have the highest mark at Mods, which turned out to be true, 119 00:13:11,910 --> 00:13:20,250 but was was maybe going to benefit from the four year structure, which they had actually spoken to me a little bit about. 120 00:13:20,250 --> 00:13:25,620 At an open day, I was lucky enough to go the tutors and tell me about that. 121 00:13:25,620 --> 00:13:30,120 And then I guess I actually can definitely understand your point of view. 122 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:36,690 When I studied classics at Oxford, I was in a very similar position where I much preferred the history and the archaeology than other aspects. 123 00:13:36,690 --> 00:13:41,430 And and it was taking that long term view over the. That's the benefit really of the four year course. 124 00:13:41,430 --> 00:13:45,870 I know, Bill, originally you said that you were the first person in your family to go to university. 125 00:13:45,870 --> 00:13:50,610 Can you talk a bit more about how your background influenced your Classics journey 126 00:13:50,610 --> 00:13:54,660 at that point and what people's perceptions were about the study of classics, 127 00:13:54,660 --> 00:14:01,680 especially if it wasn't something that was hugely mainstream? Yeah, I mean, my mum, so I grew up in a single parent family. 128 00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:03,440 So it's me and my mum and my brother. 129 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:12,650 And my uncles and aunties, nobody's been to university and nobody knew what Classics was so later on when I became a classicist and I became an academic, 130 00:14:12,650 --> 00:14:19,070 people might bump into my mom in the street, say, how's William? How's his French coming along? from my mom, you know, Latin, Greek. 131 00:14:19,070 --> 00:14:20,360 It was a language. 132 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:25,940 So as far as she knew, she told people that I was a professor of French because that was basically the only language she could remember. 133 00:14:25,940 --> 00:14:30,260 And so people would say, oh, you still teaching French at Cambridge? Yeah, kind of. 134 00:14:30,260 --> 00:14:38,690 Yeah, sort of. So I mean, the plus side of not having any pressure from your family to go to university is that 135 00:14:38,690 --> 00:14:42,170 you go there because you want to go there and you think it's going to be interesting. 136 00:14:42,170 --> 00:14:47,900 And there was no pressure on me to study a particular subject or to go to university or anything like that. 137 00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:57,830 And as I said, I owe everything to my teachers who spotted something in me as a 12, 13 year old and encouraged me. 138 00:14:57,830 --> 00:15:03,840 And yeah, I hadn't been out of Fife. I think I'd been to Blackpool on holiday once when I was 11. 139 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,430 But otherwise, you know, we didn't have a car. I never went out of Fife. 140 00:15:07,430 --> 00:15:14,600 And for me the distant metropolis was Edinburgh. And I wanted to, it didn't occur to me that I would study anywhere else. 141 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,890 So I put one university on my UCAS form, Edinburgh, 142 00:15:18,890 --> 00:15:27,800 and got in luckily and and then I think everybody in Edinburgh department had been to Balliol at some point 143 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:34,520 because there's a very strong connection between Glasgow and Edinburgh and St Andrews and Balliol over the years. 144 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,720 And so they'd all studied as undergraduates or graduates there by by chance. 145 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:44,480 And so when I said to them, I'm thinking of becoming an academic, they all said, no, don't do it. 146 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:49,820 It will ruin your life, become an advocate, which is a Scottish equivalent of a barrister. 147 00:15:49,820 --> 00:15:54,450 And I said, well, maybe I'll try that, but I'll try, try and do a PhD, because in Oxford, 148 00:15:54,450 --> 00:15:58,610 the biggest, most famous department in the world, I knew that by then. 149 00:15:58,610 --> 00:16:07,640 I didn't know that when I was 17. And so I disregarded that advice and I went to Balliol and did a PhD and then eventually ended up here. 150 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:14,810 I always wanted to be a teacher. I was a high school teacher between finishing my PhD and coming back into academia, which I loved. 151 00:16:14,810 --> 00:16:23,450 Had I not got back into the kind of rat race of academia at that stage, I would have been very happy as a high school teacher in classics. 152 00:16:23,450 --> 00:16:23,720 Yeah. 153 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:33,050 So that's I didn't have any there was no pressure to go to university or and certainly no pressure to do classics because nobody knew what it was. 154 00:16:33,050 --> 00:16:35,390 But it was purely I enjoyed languages. 155 00:16:35,390 --> 00:16:45,810 I seemed to be quite good at them and particularly Greek literature as soon as I read the Iliad and Odyssey, I was hooked and just took it from there. 156 00:16:45,810 --> 00:16:52,620 That's interesting that both you and Arlene are now academics, but I've also had that time being schoolteachers. 157 00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:59,070 How Arlene first perhaps how was that influenced the way that you've then kind of come back to academia? 158 00:16:59,070 --> 00:17:04,140 Has it given you a different perspective on the study of classics? Yeah, I think it has. 159 00:17:04,140 --> 00:17:15,450 It's giving me a reality check because I know what life is like being the person at the front of the room enacting educational policy. 160 00:17:15,450 --> 00:17:24,480 I know what it's like to have to enthuse thirty people about ancient literature and to 161 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,460 have to do the marking and the parents evenings and deal with staffroom politics. 162 00:17:29,460 --> 00:17:34,920 And the life of a teacher is incredibly challenging. 163 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:40,650 It is not a part time job the way that it's sometimes portrayed in the media. 164 00:17:40,650 --> 00:17:48,990 So I think the time that I spent as a classroom teacher, I was in schools for more than a decade with the teacher and in leadership positions. 165 00:17:48,990 --> 00:17:55,770 And I think that has been incredibly useful for me as an academic, working and researching classics education, 166 00:17:55,770 --> 00:18:02,040 because the conversations that I have with academic colleagues and now with policymakers 167 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:08,650 are all the more credible and authentic from the point of view of knowledge exchange. 168 00:18:08,650 --> 00:18:13,570 And I know in your research that you focussed quite a lot on on ancient rhetoric, 169 00:18:13,570 --> 00:18:20,410 which must be something that you employ in the classroom itself, in that very oral style of communication and teaching, 170 00:18:20,410 --> 00:18:23,060 that obviously is one thing that we do gain from the ancient world, 171 00:18:23,060 --> 00:18:29,110 certainly is our use of language and probably something that is very much practiced within the Oxford degree. 172 00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:36,730 What are some of those other sort of skills that are developed by the study of classics and and how have you both experienced them 173 00:18:36,730 --> 00:18:45,070 as far as whether it be the student desk or is somebody kind of on the other side of that tutorial system or academic relationship? 174 00:18:45,070 --> 00:18:53,400 I think, again, I've mentioned this before, but I really like the kind of I think it's like interdisciplinary nature of the Oxford course. 175 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:59,830 So if you've got an interest, you probably have it developed over the first year and a half of the Oxford course. 176 00:18:59,830 --> 00:19:06,880 You do modules in almost pure literature, like when you're looking at the Iliad, for example. 177 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,940 But then you also have this module called texts and contexts, 178 00:19:09,940 --> 00:19:16,120 which I really enjoyed because it took a period of time in classical history that I didn't know much about at all. 179 00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:25,240 So that's the kind of classical Athens. And you're looking at a text which maybe you're looking at Athenians playwrights, 180 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,930 but at the same time you're having to consider the cultural setting of that. 181 00:19:28,930 --> 00:19:32,620 You're looking at any archaeological evidence you have that would intersect with it. 182 00:19:32,620 --> 00:19:39,430 So in terms of the skills that comes from that, I think it gives you a really interesting way of looking at the world, I think. 183 00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:45,340 And then and then the skills that you kind of want to develop more as you move into your third and fourth year, 184 00:19:45,340 --> 00:19:50,230 you kind of get to pick from something like 80 modules, I think it is now. 185 00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:56,360 And so I really I really like writing arguments, building literature analysis. 186 00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:59,350 So I'm doing a lot of literature and history modules. 187 00:19:59,350 --> 00:20:05,120 Some people are much more interested in linguistics, so maybe that's the kind of skills that they're building. 188 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:14,290 Yeah, fantastic. What are your thoughts on that Arlene? So reflecting both on my own time as an undergraduate and now as a member of faculty. 189 00:20:14,290 --> 00:20:21,340 I think one of the key skills that the study of classics helps cultivate is communication. 190 00:20:21,340 --> 00:20:27,910 We are able to communicate both in written form and also orally. 191 00:20:27,910 --> 00:20:38,740 And we know from a number of surveys that what employers are looking for is people who are able to communicate effectively and are 192 00:20:38,740 --> 00:20:51,250 able to evidence their arguments and are able to show that they can communicate with a number of diversely position stakeholders. 193 00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:59,300 And that is something which we can be really proud of as graduates of classics. 194 00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:06,940 I think it's something that we are not particularly good at promoting and talking about. 195 00:21:06,940 --> 00:21:13,990 So, yes, obviously, as somebody who researches rhetoric is something which I'm deeply embedded in. 196 00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:22,470 But I think the communication skills that come from studying classics are something that we could do better to talk about. 197 00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:27,870 Going back though Arlene to when you came to Saint Hilda's to do classics as an undergraduate, 198 00:21:27,870 --> 00:21:31,050 I'm interested in how you felt that your Scottish background 199 00:21:31,050 --> 00:21:35,970 And your lived experience to that point influenced both your experience as an undergraduate 200 00:21:35,970 --> 00:21:40,620 and then also the parts of classics that appeal to you and the things that you enjoyed. 201 00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:46,560 So I think my Scottish background contributed to a number of giggles initially. 202 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:51,360 I guess the elephant in the room that we perhaps haven't got so far is accents, 203 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:56,250 we can't get away from the fact that as Scots we come to Oxford and sound different. 204 00:21:56,250 --> 00:22:01,590 And this was definitely something that I experienced very quickly when I came 205 00:22:01,590 --> 00:22:06,750 as an undergraduate to Oxford and with friends initially in Freshers Week. 206 00:22:06,750 --> 00:22:11,220 It was just funny, I would say, you know, I need to find where Boots is. 207 00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:15,300 And they would be like, Oh, that's a funny. She says, bits, bits, bits. 208 00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:19,560 And they would all kind of repeat it. And it was OK. Like I didn't find it. 209 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,330 I didn't think of upsetting because I'm somebody who is quite proud of my Scottish accent. 210 00:22:24,330 --> 00:22:29,950 So it was just funny. And I was very proud because when I went to my first MILC class. 211 00:22:29,950 --> 00:22:34,230 So that's the kind of morning language class the classicists have. 212 00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:41,910 James Morwood at the time and a great teacher complimented me on the way that I read Greek. 213 00:22:41,910 --> 00:22:50,340 like he thought that the Glaswegian pronunciation of Greek vowels was really very beautiful. 214 00:22:50,340 --> 00:22:55,740 So that really made me feel happy about my Glaswegian accent and made me feel proud of it. 215 00:22:55,740 --> 00:23:01,140 But I hadn't realised that a lot of the words that I was using were Scots words. 216 00:23:01,140 --> 00:23:04,020 I didn't I just hadn't realised that these weren't English words. 217 00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:11,910 So I used the word fankle and I got something in a fankle and I didn't realise that, like English people didn't know what the fine for me. 218 00:23:11,910 --> 00:23:17,460 So for people who are listening, if you get something, in a fankle it's all twisted and knotted up and you need to untie it. 219 00:23:17,460 --> 00:23:21,210 And I say something was shuggely and they were like, what does shuggely mean? 220 00:23:21,210 --> 00:23:23,370 And it means it's kind of like unsteady. 221 00:23:23,370 --> 00:23:31,920 And I said, this dessert that was served at Hilda's dining room one day was sleggery, I really don't like sleggery food. 222 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:38,970 What does sleggery mean? It means it's slimy. Hust to clarify, the chocolate mousse is very delicious. 223 00:23:38,970 --> 00:23:47,400 The food at St Hilda's it is actually delicious. I had a very happy time. It's just that my personal preference is not for that style of dessert. 224 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,540 And my English friends were just like, oh my goodness, she's speaking a different language. 225 00:23:51,540 --> 00:23:55,320 We're learning Latin, we're learning Greek and now we're learning Scots! 226 00:23:55,320 --> 00:24:08,160 So I think my my Scottish background really did come with me to Oxford and maybe maybe I did add a certain sprinkle of something to my time at Hilda's. 227 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:14,040 And Bill when you came to Balliol and then later to Univ, how do you think your heritage has influenced you? 228 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:19,590 Yeah, I mean, come on, as a graduate students was a wee bit different because you know, so much more international. 229 00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:27,300 I mean, no, Balliol also had this huge graduate community just outside the the main college site. 230 00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:37,890 And so, you know, you're meeting people from not just over, probably not probably about 60 percent of the people are overseas students. 231 00:24:37,890 --> 00:24:47,220 And there were other Scots there, mainly from Glasgow University, because of the Snell scholarship that exists between Glasgow and Balliol. 232 00:24:47,220 --> 00:24:51,510 And yeah, so, you know, I wasn't as conscious. 233 00:24:51,510 --> 00:24:57,840 I'm sure I'd have been an undergraduate. I would have been much more conscious about that than I was as a graduate student. 234 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:04,770 But what Arlene said reminds me, there's a great podcast by Val McDermid who was also in Hilda's. 235 00:25:04,770 --> 00:25:09,600 She's a great Scottish writer. You might know her books. 236 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:15,930 She's dear to my heart, not just cos she's a great writer but because she sponsors Raith Rovers football team. 237 00:25:15,930 --> 00:25:20,580 You've got Val McDermid dot com on their on their shirts. 238 00:25:20,580 --> 00:25:28,560 My local team. I mean there's a wonderful podcast on the Oxford University website of McDermid's experiences as a 239 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:36,020 as a as a Fife student coming to become a Hildebeast as they were called then back in the US. 240 00:25:36,020 --> 00:25:41,130 No Bill, we're the Hildababes. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 241 00:25:41,130 --> 00:25:47,190 Well, yeah, she she describes herself as in those terms back and back in the day. 242 00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:55,440 I mean, I think the other elephant in the room, to use the expression that we used on this topic is, is fees. 243 00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:04,950 I mean, if you're getting like I can comment on this better than I can, but I mean, coming from a background like mine where there is no money, 244 00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:12,240 but you've got the chance to go to university because, you know, you're bright enough and people teachers encourage you, would you? 245 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,180 OK, the Oxford tutorial system is unique. And, you know, 246 00:26:15,180 --> 00:26:21,510 you're getting a bit of value added there so that you're not getting maybe if you're going to Durham, Bristol or other English universities, 247 00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:30,820 but if you. My position, is it worth nine grand a year, would it occur to you to go to university outside Scotland if you can go for free in Scotland? 248 00:26:30,820 --> 00:26:36,460 That's a huge issue. Individual pupils and their parents you know have got to discuss and think about 249 00:26:36,460 --> 00:26:45,490 because if you're getting the added prestige and kudos of the Oxford degree, but there are costs as well as benefits for Scottish students specifically. 250 00:26:45,490 --> 00:26:50,110 Yeah, absolutely. And that's something that a few people from my school had said at the time. 251 00:26:50,110 --> 00:26:55,180 I was applying the sense of there are so many great universities in Scotland why are you 252 00:26:55,180 --> 00:27:00,970 going to pay for something which you can have subsidised by staying within the country. 253 00:27:00,970 --> 00:27:12,220 I think I think I was lucky to not think of the debt insofar as the student loan service (SAS) can cover your fees. 254 00:27:12,220 --> 00:27:17,620 They also can offer a maintenance loan, which sort of covers as much as that would be for my college system. 255 00:27:17,620 --> 00:27:22,150 It's almost exactly the same, which means that the only thing you're self funding is, 256 00:27:22,150 --> 00:27:28,070 is food and anything doing out with that so you can have immediate cost. 257 00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:33,430 Was it something which I was I was lucky enough not to have to worry about too much with both of those combined. 258 00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:38,880 I know of Scottish people from my college who are in a similar position. 259 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:45,310 who benefited from one of the college bursaries. 260 00:27:45,310 --> 00:27:51,520 So I think these things can sort of ease the dilemma to a certain extent. 261 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:57,620 And I think for me, at point I had the offer from Oxford, I would find it very difficult to give up just because, like you say, 262 00:27:57,620 --> 00:28:04,840 or maybe maybe partly as well, because of the prestige and the kudos as well as the fact that I was keen to do the tutorial system. 263 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,390 But yes, it's only my third year graduate next year. 264 00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:15,080 So the fact that the loans do have to be paid back at some point has started to occur to me, which it hadn't done at all, 265 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:21,700 because then I tried to think of them in my head is almost sort of like a tax for going to university insofar 266 00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:29,200 as they will get paid back and hopefully quite small instalments and only once you are earning a certain wealth threshold. 267 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,270 So, yeah, that's how I kind of try to think about them in my head. And that was the Trade-Off I made to come here. 268 00:28:34,270 --> 00:28:41,920 And I think it may be worth at this point saying that there are also a couple of initiatives which are being run by the university, 269 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:47,260 which interested perspective Scottish applicants could have a look at. 270 00:28:47,260 --> 00:28:53,620 One is Oxford for Scotland. So this is the university, the Central Universities Outreach Initiative, 271 00:28:53,620 --> 00:29:01,750 where prospective applicants can go on the Oxford for Scotland website and see how the university is supporting Scottish applicants. 272 00:29:01,750 --> 00:29:06,240 I am on that webpage because I'm one of the co-founders of that project and actually 273 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:12,220 Jessica's head of house Dame Elish Angiolini is also a driving force behind that initiative. 274 00:29:12,220 --> 00:29:20,740 The other is the Clydeside Project, which features a number of current Scottish undergraduates who have got profiles featured on that website, 275 00:29:20,740 --> 00:29:25,540 talking about their motivations for applying for a range of subjects at Oxford 276 00:29:25,540 --> 00:29:30,850 and saying that they are happy to be contacted by prospective applicants. 277 00:29:30,850 --> 00:29:39,490 And they will provide support and assistance and mentoring to prospective applicants who are interested in applying to Oxford and Cambridge. 278 00:29:39,490 --> 00:29:44,890 So they are two websites which we will link to together with this podcast. 279 00:29:44,890 --> 00:29:50,320 Indeed we will. And do you feel that there are any other ways in which not just Oxford classics, 280 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:57,010 but classicists more generally can try and help make the ancient world a bit more accessible to people from all 281 00:29:57,010 --> 00:30:02,350 over and particularly from Scotland or any other other ways that these barriers can be broken down. 282 00:30:02,350 --> 00:30:09,210 Do you think? I mentor with the Clydeside project and it's definitely something which is worth signing up to 283 00:30:09,210 --> 00:30:17,380 I think it's a really good way for if you're under 18, especially if you aren't used to having small class sizes, I think it's good. 284 00:30:17,380 --> 00:30:20,500 We just can get used to speaking about maybe your passion for classics, 285 00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:23,680 which is something which is really helpful when it comes to any potential interviews. 286 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:30,700 And I also last year I worked with Oxford Classics Society, and one of the things which we did, which we found had quite a lot of interest, 287 00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:33,490 was just making the talks that we were doing because they were all in so many 288 00:30:33,490 --> 00:30:37,690 ways available for the school students as well as all university members, 289 00:30:37,690 --> 00:30:44,020 which is such a I mean, it's the zero cost thing to do. And we did find that there was lots of interest to people who were 15, 16, 290 00:30:44,020 --> 00:30:48,250 and just wanted to find out a bit more about classics and see if it was something that they were engaged about to listen in. 291 00:30:48,250 --> 00:30:57,040 So we had positive responses for that. So I think just kind of sharing resources a bit is helpful because there are people who want to take them up. 292 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:07,970 So a myth I would like to dispel is about who outreach events are for and potential applicants sitting in Scotland. 293 00:31:07,970 --> 00:31:11,570 who might just have completed national qualifications. 294 00:31:11,570 --> 00:31:21,820 National 4, or national five, may be sitting browsing university websites and see that this event or talk about this event is aimed at. 295 00:31:21,820 --> 00:31:28,570 students in year 12 or year 13 or people who are sitting GCSE and A-levels 296 00:31:28,570 --> 00:31:34,990 and having been one of those students reading those outreach websites, 297 00:31:34,990 --> 00:31:45,340 I can absolutely see that it is challenging to understand what that means and whether that means, well, does that include me? 298 00:31:45,340 --> 00:31:50,950 I'm Scottish. I haven't done GCSEs, I'm not in year 12, am I allowed to attend this event? 299 00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:56,200 And what I want to say is absolutely. This includes you. 300 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:05,890 I'm sorry if there are still parts of the university, either Oxford or other English universities, who aren't using Scottish terminology, 301 00:32:05,890 --> 00:32:13,690 who aren't talking about nationals or Highers or advanced highers or S4, S5, S6, we absolutely should be. 302 00:32:13,690 --> 00:32:23,110 Scottish students are one hundred percent welcome at outreach events and one hundred percent welcome to apply to Oxford. 303 00:32:23,110 --> 00:32:32,920 If you have any doubt whatsoever about whether year 12 matches up with S5 or what this terminology means, please just email and ask. 304 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:39,220 And as somebody who's been through the Scottish system, if anybody is listening to this, who works in outreach and feels like, oh, 305 00:32:39,220 --> 00:32:46,000 they don't fully understand this system and how this translates into how they can advertise their events, 306 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:52,060 I'm really happy to help them do that translation process. Onto a slightly more general question. 307 00:32:52,060 --> 00:33:00,160 Now, I think about the nature. We've talked briefly about how interdisciplinary Classics is and how it is very definitely multifaceted. 308 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:08,020 And we've all got different research interests within it. But I'd like to ask the three of you, what does Classics mean to you? 309 00:33:08,020 --> 00:33:13,070 And that might mean in terms of the word itself or it might be a more kind of personal 310 00:33:13,070 --> 00:33:23,860 Your reflections on what Classics has meant to you so far, so far - a steady salary! 311 00:33:23,860 --> 00:33:28,930 I mean, I think if you're in humanities or social sciences, the main reason to do the subjects is, because it's fun. 312 00:33:28,930 --> 00:33:30,310 I mean, that's true of every subject. 313 00:33:30,310 --> 00:33:36,950 As an undergraduate, you choose to go to university to do classics because that's your favourite subject and you enjoy it. 314 00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:44,560 As we mentioned earlier, we have the luxury in Britain, unlike in some countries where if you do Latin or Greek at university, 315 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:49,390 you're kind of funnelled into Latin and Greek teaching at schools or university. 316 00:33:49,390 --> 00:33:56,710 In Britain, we've got the luxury that if you've got a good two, one or above degree in classics from any British university, 317 00:33:56,710 --> 00:34:02,350 because they're all excellent universities, you can do basically anything, you know. 318 00:34:02,350 --> 00:34:07,330 And that's reflected in my undergraduate that at Uni on the average year, 1/3 will go into 319 00:34:07,330 --> 00:34:11,770 law conversion, a third go into the city and finance and various descriptions, 320 00:34:11,770 --> 00:34:15,940 and the other third will do all the other interesting jobs in the world from being 321 00:34:15,940 --> 00:34:21,250 theatre directors or writers or classics teachers or professional rugby players. 322 00:34:21,250 --> 00:34:26,110 I mean, you name it, they do everything. So it should never be a barrier. 323 00:34:26,110 --> 00:34:30,430 You are listening to this and your parents are saying you'll never get a job. 324 00:34:30,430 --> 00:34:37,750 Just say no. Actually, I will. The statistics show, you know, all these things online about save the humanities, save English. 325 00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:45,910 You know, the people at the top of so many companies, including tech companies, computer computer programming companies, Google, 326 00:34:45,910 --> 00:34:53,860 the people at the top did humanities subjects, 80 percent of them, they did French and Music University, and then they moved into that field. 327 00:34:53,860 --> 00:34:58,450 So I think we're very lucky in Britain that if you've got a passion for classics, 328 00:34:58,450 --> 00:35:04,420 you can pursue it at university without it narrowing down your career options in any way. 329 00:35:04,420 --> 00:35:08,950 But for me, classics is fun. I mean, I do it. I do because I enjoy teaching. 330 00:35:08,950 --> 00:35:14,140 I happen to be pretty good at Latin and Greek. I enjoy it and I'm very happy. 331 00:35:14,140 --> 00:35:20,290 But the main reason to do it is it's fun as well as, you know, the grand intellectual reasons of plumbing 332 00:35:20,290 --> 00:35:25,180 the depths of the human condition, which classics obviously does as well. 333 00:35:25,180 --> 00:35:29,260 How about you Jess? Yeah, I think exactly. 334 00:35:29,260 --> 00:35:34,750 It's just incredibly fun and it's something so exciting as well and quite special to be. 335 00:35:34,750 --> 00:35:37,420 I mean, my age and to know nothing at all. 336 00:35:37,420 --> 00:35:46,000 And then to go back to two thousand years and be reading some love poetry or whatever it is that your main interest is, 337 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,860 would be like, oh, well, these people, knew nothing as well, or they knew lots. 338 00:35:50,860 --> 00:35:55,900 I find it really exciting to be reading something from someone so long ago and going, oh, well, I can feel that same way. 339 00:35:55,900 --> 00:36:01,960 So you get this really engaging mix of kind of big questions, but also individual connections. 340 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,020 And yeah, I think I think I think that's something which is quite special. 341 00:36:05,020 --> 00:36:13,690 I'm sure everyone who does the humanities thinks that the subject helps them connect to, you know, these big cultural questions in the best way. 342 00:36:13,690 --> 00:36:16,150 But I do think that's true for classics. 343 00:36:16,150 --> 00:36:20,710 And I think it's having such a popular resurgence that you kind of know that this is something quite universal. 344 00:36:20,710 --> 00:36:27,610 So not everyone's going to decide that their passion for classics means that they want to study for years, 345 00:36:27,610 --> 00:36:33,960 for years here, but we've seen kind of like a resurgence in Madeline Miller Song of Achilles 346 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:40,360 So I got into roman history because of the Robert Harris Cicero books 347 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:47,620 So, yeah, I think it's really nice to study this thing, which I do think everyone everyone wants to know about the ancient world to some extent. 348 00:36:47,620 --> 00:36:53,110 And certainly. And Arlene, what does it mean to you? I'm very much like Bill and Jess, 349 00:36:53,110 --> 00:36:57,910 I think Classics is a really exciting subject. 350 00:36:57,910 --> 00:37:04,000 I mean, at the moment I'm doing a lot of work with policymakers and classics doesn't really mean an awful lot to them, 351 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:09,580 because as far as they're concerned, they work with the terminology of qualifications. 352 00:37:09,580 --> 00:37:14,710 So in Scotland we have Latin and we have classical studies. 353 00:37:14,710 --> 00:37:24,910 That's what classics means in Scotland and in England, it's Latin, classical Greek, ancient history and classical civilisation. 354 00:37:24,910 --> 00:37:30,910 So that's what we're working with at the moment. As you know, there is a lot of discussion, 355 00:37:30,910 --> 00:37:42,730 some of it heated at the moment about what Classics means and whether that term is helpful or actually unhelpful. 356 00:37:42,730 --> 00:37:47,800 And those conversations, I imagine, are going to run on for quite some time. 357 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:54,880 Twitter is a place where those conversations are happening in a very public way. 358 00:37:54,880 --> 00:38:03,070 So anyone who's interested in this classic Twitter is the place to go to be part of those conversations. 359 00:38:03,070 --> 00:38:10,830 How has though the ancient past and I suppose maybe Bill come to you first, informed your understanding of the world today? 360 00:38:10,830 --> 00:38:16,120 So not just it obviously is your job and it's your career and it's something that you take a lot of enjoyment from. 361 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:25,540 But are there any aspects that you think maybe historically, politically that feed into your understanding of the world in twenty twenty one? 362 00:38:25,540 --> 00:38:26,230 Yeah, I guess. 363 00:38:26,230 --> 00:38:37,840 I mean, I've been doing classics for many years and one thing I've learnt from my extensive study of the past is that the past was largely rubbish. 364 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:46,960 And I'm really, really happy that I'm alive today when people don't die willy nilly in childbirth or because they've got a toothache. 365 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,410 So I'm a firm believer in human progress. 366 00:38:50,410 --> 00:38:57,910 Nevertheless, there are certain things in the human condition that remain big questions that remain fundamentally the same. 367 00:38:57,910 --> 00:39:05,410 And although they are addressed in different ways, in different cultures, are pretty pancultural issues to do with morality, 368 00:39:05,410 --> 00:39:09,820 life and death and love and all the big issues that make life worth living. 369 00:39:09,820 --> 00:39:21,520 And, you know, to read Sappho on love or to read Aeschylus on Justice or to read Cicero on Cicero is a great fun. 370 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:28,780 It's a cliche, but like many cliches, it's true that you see history repeat itself and you can see things that you've read about in 371 00:39:28,780 --> 00:39:35,500 Thucydides or Herodotus or Suetonius literally happening on the front pages of your newspaper. 372 00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:40,210 And it's interesting to compare and contrast different cultures' 373 00:39:40,210 --> 00:39:44,230 responses to them as well with all the stuff that we already alluded to about transferable 374 00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:53,770 skills and what classics that sets you up for the real world beyond college university. 375 00:39:53,770 --> 00:39:59,350 But it is true that having that awareness of historical events and especially when you read them in textual forms, 376 00:39:59,350 --> 00:40:04,630 you've understood not just the kind of the facts as far as we know, but also you can read that bias. 377 00:40:04,630 --> 00:40:08,620 And you've kind of seen it through a lens of a contemporary author at the time 378 00:40:08,620 --> 00:40:14,170 does give you such a perspective on modern modern politics around the world. 379 00:40:14,170 --> 00:40:20,800 Arlene and Jess, are there any other ways as well that you feel that the ancient world informed your understanding of modern life? 380 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:31,210 One of the most exciting ways I've interacted with classics was by seeing a production from the Trojan Women Project, which they they were recently based in Glasgow. 381 00:40:31,210 --> 00:40:36,980 And it was and this is a group of Syrian refugees who are now living in Glasgow, rebuilding their lives, 382 00:40:36,980 --> 00:40:47,060 there who put on a performance of the Trojan women which is this kind of very ancient anti war play and listening to interviews from the cast members, 383 00:40:47,060 --> 00:40:51,130 they kind of speak about finding that voice to process this horrible trauma. 384 00:40:51,130 --> 00:40:59,200 But with the framework of a really ancient play and I think it's very, very powerful to watch, 385 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:06,520 because you understand that these are people who can understand this classical play in a way that you never will, never will. 386 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:12,770 But I think it really did show a sort of enduring power to the script, amongst many other things. 387 00:41:12,770 --> 00:41:23,030 I would say the exhibition at the Hunterian museum in Glasgow of the Romans in Scotland was something that I really enjoyed visiting. 388 00:41:23,030 --> 00:41:28,790 So they have this permanent display called The Last Frontier. 389 00:41:28,790 --> 00:41:37,820 And as somebody who had grown up in the west of Scotland and somebody who had studied the higher and advanced Latin course, 390 00:41:37,820 --> 00:41:42,770 I only visited this exhibition a few years ago and couldn't believe that actually 391 00:41:42,770 --> 00:41:49,880 there were a number of pieces of material culture on display in the west of Scotland, 392 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:56,240 which brought to life the legacy of the Romans and the west of Scotland, 393 00:41:56,240 --> 00:42:01,730 which had come from places near where I had grown up and where I had gone to school. 394 00:42:01,730 --> 00:42:09,650 And yet I had at no point in my school career known anything about them, didn't know that they exist and hadn't gone to see them. 395 00:42:09,650 --> 00:42:19,970 So I think that there are ways of entwining the ancient past with learning about the ancient past and museums that are a great place to do that. 396 00:42:19,970 --> 00:42:23,480 And a project I'm working on now with funding from the Arts and Humanities Research 397 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:28,940 Council is trying to do some of the joining of the dots between museums and schools. 398 00:42:28,940 --> 00:42:33,560 It's called improving access to classical studies in museums and schools. 399 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:38,750 And I think that bringing the ancient world to life for young people by connecting 400 00:42:38,750 --> 00:42:43,490 museum curators and school teachers is something that can be really very powerful. 401 00:42:43,490 --> 00:42:54,540 And I would love to see more young people in Scottish schools learning about the legacy of the Romans and Scotland through material culture. 402 00:42:54,540 --> 00:42:58,950 And that's a fantastic way to start to bring our episode to a close. 403 00:42:58,950 --> 00:43:05,010 So before I do that, I want to just ask if there's anything that any of you would like to talk about or mention or highlight, 404 00:43:05,010 --> 00:43:10,990 and if not, then the final question. Any myths or barriers that you feel that we haven't quite covered or that you would like to dispel? 405 00:43:10,990 --> 00:43:15,210 I mean, I think we've I think we've successfully busted most myths today. 406 00:43:15,210 --> 00:43:20,910 So we busted the myth that we're not studying a subject that's relevant to the modern world. 407 00:43:20,910 --> 00:43:25,180 We've busted the myth. The classics is a dead end career wise. 408 00:43:25,180 --> 00:43:28,920 I mean, as far as Oxford is concerned, then the main myth is busting . 409 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,490 The myth, that classics, per se is the subject is elitist, which is absurd. 410 00:43:32,490 --> 00:43:36,990 I mean, as a subject, it's no more elitist per se than physics or chemistry or English. 411 00:43:36,990 --> 00:43:40,200 It's structural things that lead to elitism. 412 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:49,740 And the best way of breaking them down is obviously we mentioned the return of PGDE at Moray House and hopefully Latin and classical studies, 413 00:43:49,740 --> 00:43:55,050 if not Greek being more widely available in Scotland in the future. 414 00:43:55,050 --> 00:43:59,790 I guess another myth you sometimes meet at outreach events is where people come in. 415 00:43:59,790 --> 00:44:04,500 They say, oh, I don't have access to or I've only done classical civilisation. 416 00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:08,970 Will I cope with the Oxford degree? Yes, of course you will. 417 00:44:08,970 --> 00:44:14,680 Or I haven't done any classics will I cope with Oxford Degree. Is it going to be supportive of people from my background? 418 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,200 And the answer is yes. 419 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:24,930 I mean, the ab initio Latin and Greek have been running for for many decades now and are very well oiled machine and as I say, 420 00:44:24,930 --> 00:44:29,520 the really bright students who are on it achieve excellent results. 421 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:37,560 Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes maybe applying to ab initio, at least, it could be quite helpful in some ways insofar as, 422 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,700 you know, you've got this really excellent sometimes one on one teaching from the get go. 423 00:44:41,700 --> 00:44:47,580 But that's true, I think for most courses, but for classics, no matter what course you come on to, 424 00:44:47,580 --> 00:44:51,030 one of the great things is that as much as school, even more than school, 425 00:44:51,030 --> 00:44:52,880 there's help, which is not true everywhere you go, 426 00:44:52,880 --> 00:45:00,600 it's very easy to reach out to your senior tutor or someone who you have for your one on one or two and one tutorials. 427 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,770 So getting help, I think, getting support, something which is really possible. 428 00:45:04,770 --> 00:45:11,670 And I think I agree that the big myth, I think for Oxford is, is that somewhere that I even want to go is a Scottish person. 429 00:45:11,670 --> 00:45:14,730 And then I think it's something I want to study, 430 00:45:14,730 --> 00:45:21,570 maybe compounds that question in terms of I think I think it does bear the burden of sounding like something very elitist. 431 00:45:21,570 --> 00:45:27,540 And I know people from high school who are very clever and doing very well at university, 432 00:45:27,540 --> 00:45:33,000 but who just thought, oh, well, why would I want to go to to Oxford, when I can apply X, Y and Z? 433 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:42,430 And I think that's a fair question. But I think there's not loads of people from Scotland who are in Oxford right now and it would be great for there to be more people. 434 00:45:42,430 --> 00:45:47,580 I remember my first the kind of thinking, oh, I'm going to tell people in from Glasgow is more interesting than my village, 435 00:45:47,580 --> 00:45:51,990 which is Kilmacolm, and I'll get away with that because there's not going to be Scots to meet. 436 00:45:51,990 --> 00:45:56,510 And then in about the first two minutes, I met three Glaswegian boys. 437 00:45:56,510 --> 00:46:02,220 who all told me I had to stop saying I was Glaswegian and that was from Kilmacolm, which is quite nice, actually. 438 00:46:02,220 --> 00:46:04,920 And I think it's definitely a nice community to be friends. 439 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:11,580 So insofar as should I like it because it might be difficult, I think it's always going to be difficult to apply to university. 440 00:46:11,580 --> 00:46:16,710 But if it's something that you do want to do, then there's definitely the support in terms of should I apply because well, 441 00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:18,810 I actually enjoy it when I get, like, the answers. So. 442 00:46:18,810 --> 00:46:25,260 So, yes, I've not really spoken to anyone who's going to come with the classics and just building on what Jess just said, 443 00:46:25,260 --> 00:46:36,030 I would say from the faculty classics perspective, we are actively open and welcoming to applications from Scottish students. 444 00:46:36,030 --> 00:46:43,200 We would love to see more applications from students who are going to school in Scotland. 445 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,000 So please, please, 446 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:52,650 if you are currently studying Latin or classical studies in Scotland or you're currently not studying Latin or classical studies in Scotland, 447 00:46:52,650 --> 00:47:01,530 but you're interested in studying classics, course 1 or course 2 or any of the joint schools and classics in Oxford please do apply. 448 00:47:01,530 --> 00:47:13,860 We would love to see an application from you. It is absolutely the case that the classics admissions tests require you to have learned vocabulary. 449 00:47:13,860 --> 00:47:22,230 And it is also the case that when you do higher Latin, you are given a wordlist. 450 00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:31,560 So my top tip is that over the summer after you have done your higher and before you do the test in November, 451 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:35,880 learn vocabulary because there is no exception made for Scottish students, 452 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:42,810 the expectation is that you will just learn enough vocabulary in order to do your best on the classic admissions test. 453 00:47:42,810 --> 00:47:50,850 And I just want to say a huge thank you to all three of our panellists today for sharing their experiences and for capturing, 454 00:47:50,850 --> 00:47:54,380 I think, as always, the joy that classics can bring and 455 00:47:54,380 --> 00:47:57,980 The fun that can be had with it as a subject, especially here in Oxford. 456 00:47:57,980 --> 00:48:04,109 Thank you very much, Arlene, Bill and Jessica, for your time today on this episode of Regional Classics.