1 00:00:10,390 --> 00:00:18,580 It's a huge pleasure that I had to introduce Professor Stephen Gillett to, Stevens is visiting us within scope at the moment, 2 00:00:18,580 --> 00:00:26,530 just the three days while he's doing some other projects in and around Europe, so we're lucky to have him here. 3 00:00:26,530 --> 00:00:32,490 Stephen is professor of Adult Education in the School of Education and Professional Studies at Griffith University. 4 00:00:32,490 --> 00:00:38,950 It's quite a mouthful. Stephen has worked as a vocational educator, a church administrator, teacher, 5 00:00:38,950 --> 00:00:42,940 educator and professional development practitioner and policy development 6 00:00:42,940 --> 00:00:48,640 within the Institute for Pigmentation and Training System for a long time now. 7 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:57,190 And Stephen is an honorary research fellow in this parliament quite recently, and we're very pleased to have him here. 8 00:00:57,190 --> 00:01:05,140 Religion for the presentation, our students said. If you've got questions during, please ask, but we can also give it to the end. 9 00:01:05,140 --> 00:01:11,560 Yep. Okay. Thanks, Susan. Nice to be here and thanks for coming along on a cold evening. 10 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,450 Of the various topics that perhaps I could have spoken about this evening, we've chosen this topic, 11 00:01:16,450 --> 00:01:27,430 which is one very much about how we come to think about an act to integrate the experiences which tertiary education students have in the workplace, 12 00:01:27,430 --> 00:01:36,850 but also in the education institution, and it builds upon a series of projects that I've undertaken in Australia. 13 00:01:36,850 --> 00:01:42,220 The case sort of is that currently significant institutional and personal 14 00:01:42,220 --> 00:01:47,230 resources are being expended to provide students with with workplace experiences, 15 00:01:47,230 --> 00:02:00,160 certainly in Australia, and this is directed towards preparing them for readiness of the world of work upon graduation and trying 16 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:08,410 to also prepare them for lifelong learning to be able to learn and progress across their working lives. 17 00:02:08,410 --> 00:02:16,750 And much of the emphasis. The rhetoric anyway, is about the integration of these experiences and how that might happen. 18 00:02:16,750 --> 00:02:29,500 And within that, a consideration of what kind of goals should be achieved and how this is organised and enacted through work integrated education. 19 00:02:29,500 --> 00:02:37,030 So what I want to discuss really is the kinds of educational goals that such activities are directed towards. 20 00:02:37,030 --> 00:02:42,910 Firstly, and then a consideration of three things the curriculum and pedagogy, 21 00:02:42,910 --> 00:02:51,730 practises and personal practises as well that might shape those outcomes and how these experiences, 22 00:02:51,730 --> 00:02:57,640 students experiences and workplaces might be augmented and rich as it were. 23 00:02:57,640 --> 00:03:06,970 And this draws upon three recent projects that have taken place across 20 Australian universities. 24 00:03:06,970 --> 00:03:14,590 And the most current one, which I'm desperately trying to finish, is focussing on the post practicum experiences. 25 00:03:14,590 --> 00:03:22,270 When students have had an experience with this grant, by the way, I thought had finished it, and it was worth about half million dollars. 26 00:03:22,270 --> 00:03:31,880 And then the report was in, and then I got contacted by the federal government to say what happened to the the interest that was earned on the grant. 27 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,230 They've had that one before. 28 00:03:33,230 --> 00:03:40,790 And sure enough, in the contract, they said that the money that was earned on the interest had to be expended on the grant. 29 00:03:40,790 --> 00:03:50,330 And so the grant keeps on going and going as I have to find a way of extending the nine thousand six hundred dollars that was earned on interest. 30 00:03:50,330 --> 00:04:01,160 So anyway, so here we go. And a key concern is how we align educational goals with curriculum practises and pedagogy practises. 31 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:11,690 But you'll also see within all of this a very strong emphasis on students, their interest, their goals and how that plays out in these arrangements. 32 00:04:11,690 --> 00:04:18,770 So how lots of progress is talk initially about the educational purposes for tertiary and higher education, 33 00:04:18,770 --> 00:04:23,270 and I'm using the word tertiary education because I do work across a number of 34 00:04:23,270 --> 00:04:28,420 countries and what constitutes higher education in one country and another country. 35 00:04:28,420 --> 00:04:35,120 It's not so easy to discern. It's so tertiary education is a, you know, is the post schooling education, 36 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:43,640 which includes vocational education and what is called higher education, and then manifested differently across countries. 37 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:49,700 The importance of integrating and augmenting work experience is through three studies which I'll briefly refer to. 38 00:04:49,700 --> 00:05:03,120 And then so what? In the modern era, a key goal for tertiary education has been to prepare people graduates for occupations. 39 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:09,600 And I would hold that even so-called liberal education sets about achieving that goal. 40 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,910 In fact, liberal education is very much about ensuring that or trying to ensure that the 41 00:05:14,910 --> 00:05:20,760 sons and daughters of upper middle class children end up doing clean work. 42 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,050 Working in the clergy, the public service or diplomatic corps. 43 00:05:25,050 --> 00:05:31,200 So although some forms of of education are seen not to be specifically vocational, 44 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:37,260 I think there's an argument to say that the vast majority of it is directed towards occupational purposes. 45 00:05:37,260 --> 00:05:49,380 However, in recent times there's the goal has changed somewhat, and that is now there's a strong emphasis on graduates being job ready. 46 00:05:49,380 --> 00:05:55,290 This is one of these slippages in higher education policy or education policy, 47 00:05:55,290 --> 00:06:02,080 which is often made by governments without an understanding of the of the differences between them. 48 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:09,450 It's funny when I was here in 2003, the last time the paper I gave, 49 00:06:09,450 --> 00:06:14,370 which ended up being published in the Oxford Education Review, was entitled What was it called? 50 00:06:14,370 --> 00:06:20,020 Sorry? From your business to our business. 51 00:06:20,020 --> 00:06:28,810 And what I argued was that business in Australia was saying to Vocational Education System that you don't 52 00:06:28,810 --> 00:06:36,310 know enough about the business of business and we need business to guide the vocational education provision. 53 00:06:36,310 --> 00:06:45,290 And I reviewed a whole series of initiatives that are taking place, and I concluded that business didn't understand the business of education. 54 00:06:45,290 --> 00:06:47,060 And I think this is another of these examples, 55 00:06:47,060 --> 00:06:56,960 because there's a big difference between preparing people for an occupation when you have set standards and actually preparing people to be job ready. 56 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:02,330 And this is a particularly tough task because, for instance, 57 00:07:02,330 --> 00:07:10,760 we don't know where graduates will end up being employed or the requirements of that employment. 58 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:19,560 Now if, for instance, a particular occupations say teaching was going to be exactly the same requirements across every school. 59 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:24,030 That would be fine, but I think we all know that the skills required, 60 00:07:24,030 --> 00:07:31,860 the capacities needed, the disposition that is necessary varies from school to school. 61 00:07:31,860 --> 00:07:36,180 And you could be a great teacher in a small country school and you would been 62 00:07:36,180 --> 00:07:41,310 monstered in a school that is in perhaps the fringes of an Australian city, 63 00:07:41,310 --> 00:07:46,530 for instance, where the kids are perhaps not as easy to engage with as others. 64 00:07:46,530 --> 00:07:50,400 So without actually knowing where our graduates will end up. 65 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,450 It's a bit hard to say that they should be job ready. 66 00:07:54,450 --> 00:08:03,840 And this requires quite different educational goals and also processes than simply occupational preparation. 67 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:11,070 Now, having said that, I don't think that's a bad thing, because presumably what we want from educational provisions, 68 00:08:11,070 --> 00:08:19,110 the outcome of it is that US graduates, our students should be able to adapt to different circumstances and engage differently. 69 00:08:19,110 --> 00:08:23,100 So for me, it's a reasonable, reasonable proposition. 70 00:08:23,100 --> 00:08:32,070 However, we need the goals and the processes in place to ensure that and part of that is a focus on adaptability, 71 00:08:32,070 --> 00:08:40,530 how we can generate that in students rather than meeting specified requirements and coming from vocational education. 72 00:08:40,530 --> 00:08:48,180 A lot of that has been generated through competency based training and national standards that were to be achieved. 73 00:08:48,180 --> 00:08:58,590 And that, by the way, in a country that what our plumber does in the Northern Territory is very different than what a plumber does in cold Tasmania. 74 00:08:58,590 --> 00:09:06,870 What a horticulturalist does in Tasmania is very different than what a horticultural does in Western Australia or the Northern Territory, 75 00:09:06,870 --> 00:09:11,580 so the occupational practises are often quite different. 76 00:09:11,580 --> 00:09:17,520 So in terms of educational purposes, we know that the project of education should be intentional. 77 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:26,280 There should be particular goals associated with it and for those for occupational purposes, have particular qualities. 78 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:32,640 And I use this term the canonical OK canonical occupational knowledge that is the 79 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:38,220 kind of knowledge which anybody who's working at a particular field needs to have. 80 00:09:38,220 --> 00:09:48,360 And the three kinds of knowledge the what people need to know to do and to value knowing is conceptual knowledge. 81 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:55,500 The Americans often refer to it as declarative knowledge that is knowledge you can speak or write down. 82 00:09:55,500 --> 00:09:59,850 Then this procedural knowledge and that is how we go about achieving goals. 83 00:09:59,850 --> 00:10:05,180 And that knowledge is not you can't write it down, you, because we don't know actually how we do it. 84 00:10:05,180 --> 00:10:14,820 We can indicate how we think that's the case, but we're not quite sure about that and then the importance of dispositions. 85 00:10:14,820 --> 00:10:19,290 Now these three forms of knowledge are all interrelated. 86 00:10:19,290 --> 00:10:24,960 Whenever you engage in your thinking you, you're thinking in part is is value driven. 87 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:31,080 And in the process of thinking you're using cognitive procedures and you're also thinking about it. 88 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:38,260 So the three forms of knowledge, every time you think about something when you drive, for instance, you're using concepts of what is safe driving, 89 00:10:38,260 --> 00:10:46,050 you're using procedures to drive with and you're using values associated with how you go about driving what is safe practise. 90 00:10:46,050 --> 00:10:53,220 For instance, my family tell me that I drive far too quickly and get far too close to cars in front of me. 91 00:10:53,220 --> 00:10:57,900 I claim I'm a positive driver. They don't. Yeah, anyway. 92 00:10:57,900 --> 00:11:07,440 Um, but these three forms of knowledge while they come together, as we think and act, actually have quite different means of being developed. 93 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:12,960 So, for instance, dispositions values often arise from observation, 94 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:21,360 whereas procedures to be able to do something that requires sometimes ethical engagement in practises to improve 95 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:30,840 those and then conceptual understanding often comes about through being able to access and understand knowledge. 96 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:36,330 Now, while we well and these exist at this level and these are often the stuff that's tried to 97 00:11:36,330 --> 00:11:42,630 be captured in national standards and also in statements about occupational practise, 98 00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:54,540 however, there's also the situational manifestations of of this these that move from the canonical to the actual practise. 99 00:11:54,540 --> 00:11:59,790 And these are what permit job performance and they have. 100 00:11:59,790 --> 00:12:06,630 They constitute particular manifestations of what is need to be known can be done and valued. 101 00:12:06,630 --> 00:12:12,630 Now claim I make is that there is no such thing as an occupational expert. 102 00:12:12,630 --> 00:12:19,230 There's no such thing as an expert doctor per, say, an expert teacher per say or an expert nurse, et cetera, 103 00:12:19,230 --> 00:12:30,060 because expertise involves the ability to respond to non-routine problems and those problems arise in particular circumstances of practise. 104 00:12:30,060 --> 00:12:34,560 So in the state I live in in Queensland, which is a very big state nurses, 105 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:41,670 the Poisons Act has been relaxed so that nurses I think 250 kilometres from Brisbane 106 00:12:41,670 --> 00:12:46,410 are able to prescribe some kind of medicines because if they weren't doing it, 107 00:12:46,410 --> 00:12:50,370 there would be nobody there to do it. So there's different requirements, performance. 108 00:12:50,370 --> 00:12:52,490 And so we have things like medical, 109 00:12:52,490 --> 00:12:57,780 what medical folk doing a large teaching hospital is clearly very different than what they do in small regional hospitals, 110 00:12:57,780 --> 00:13:03,510 in small country towns, et cetera. The same with a whole range of other other occupations, 111 00:13:03,510 --> 00:13:12,300 and it's the ability to respond to those problems and respond to those needs at local level that really determines what expertise is. 112 00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:19,500 And and educational intents, therefore must include not only the development of the canonical knowledge, 113 00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:23,430 but the ability to respond at the local level. 114 00:13:23,430 --> 00:13:27,630 By the way, I can see somebody taking images this handouts here for everything that's going to be up there. 115 00:13:27,630 --> 00:13:38,280 And there's also another handout there, so developing adaptability becomes an important goal for curriculum and pedagogy. 116 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:46,530 Some some ideas that help me make sense of all this are as follows that the first one is the concept of a duality 117 00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:55,620 that learning from the perspectives I engage in is that it arises from what the social world affords people, 118 00:13:55,620 --> 00:14:04,530 the invitational qualities, the experience that have provided on the one hand and how individuals come to engage with them. 119 00:14:04,530 --> 00:14:10,230 And whether I look at how people learn in education institutions or in the workplace, I see the same patterns. 120 00:14:10,230 --> 00:14:21,240 It's the duality between those two things what is what experiences are afforded provided on the one hand and how the person comes to engage with them. 121 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:32,340 And I'm sure you're aware of this adage from education that educational experiences are nothing more or less than an invitation to change. 122 00:14:32,340 --> 00:14:36,600 And it's how students take up that invitation, 123 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:43,260 which is important and clearly designed to be a difference between a student engaging superficially or just 124 00:14:43,260 --> 00:14:54,240 being directed towards assessment items than somebody student engaging deeply and rigorously in the content. 125 00:14:54,240 --> 00:15:04,860 Also that while there's much talk about independent learners, clearly we want to develop learners who are interdependent, engaging with others, 126 00:15:04,860 --> 00:15:16,770 artefacts, technologies, text, et cetera, and that the integration of experiences that students have is very much a personal fact. 127 00:15:16,770 --> 00:15:24,120 It relates to how that person makes sense of those experiences, how they come to construe them and construct them. 128 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:29,160 So while we might have educational arrangements to provide different experiences, 129 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:34,740 ultimately it's down to students in terms of how they come to engage. 130 00:15:34,740 --> 00:15:42,690 And I don't know if this is an issue here, but increasingly in Australia, people referring to work, integrated learning this thing called will. 131 00:15:42,690 --> 00:15:52,260 But I think it's being used and not not correctly, because most of what is being talked about is actually work. 132 00:15:52,260 --> 00:15:57,510 Integrated education and the difference between the two is learning is what the person does 133 00:15:57,510 --> 00:16:01,920 in terms of making sense of experiences and construing and constructing knowledge from them, 134 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,430 whereas education is the provision of experiences. 135 00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:13,830 Now why I think making this this distinction is important is that if you look across the literature on lifelong learning, 136 00:16:13,830 --> 00:16:20,160 what you'll see is most of it refers to something which is lifelong education. 137 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,520 Those reports from UNESCO's the OECD. 138 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:30,450 What they like to refer to when they refer to lifelong learning is the provision of experiences a bit like this here? 139 00:16:30,450 --> 00:16:38,010 What you miss out in that in terms of lifelong learning, is all of the experiences that people have outside of education, 140 00:16:38,010 --> 00:16:45,900 institution, which and programmes, which is the vast majority of how people learn across across their working lives, et cetera. 141 00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:53,580 And the need for student agency and engagement become centre stage becomes 142 00:16:53,580 --> 00:16:59,250 very important because it's essential to support rich and effective learning. 143 00:16:59,250 --> 00:17:08,730 It's important to press learners into higher order thinking, demanding learning and also to engage with others. 144 00:17:08,730 --> 00:17:13,860 So in the engagement of the learner comes, I think, centrally to all of this discussion. 145 00:17:13,860 --> 00:17:21,240 And yet there are a series of barriers to this happening, and that includes caution on the part of students, 146 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:30,490 uncertainty on the part of students and also what I've referred to as time jealousy. 147 00:17:30,490 --> 00:17:39,520 Often students are referred to as being time poor, but arising from these studies, that seems to be that explanation is inadequate. 148 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,460 It's not a question of students not having the time, 149 00:17:42,460 --> 00:17:50,140 but rather they actually use their time strategically because they have many, many competing demands upon their time. 150 00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:57,250 Most higher education students in Australia work significant amounts of paid part time work. 151 00:17:57,250 --> 00:18:03,010 They want, they need to do that to survive. They come to the university. 152 00:18:03,010 --> 00:18:08,290 They have won a social life and then we ask them to go and spend time in the workplace. 153 00:18:08,290 --> 00:18:15,010 And so they'll make decisions about what they engage in and what they won't engage in, but also how they engage with it. 154 00:18:15,010 --> 00:18:23,830 And by the way, there's also time jealous teachers because teachers are under all sorts of pressures. 155 00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:30,940 And if they don't believe that something is important, they will engage in it superficially as well. 156 00:18:30,940 --> 00:18:39,220 By the way, there's also resource jealous workplaces because workplaces are being asked to provide experiences for students of all kinds. 157 00:18:39,220 --> 00:18:43,900 Schools, students, vocational education students and higher education students. 158 00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:48,310 The health system in the state of New South Wales and Australia a few years ago, 159 00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:52,840 they said they would have to ration the provision of experiences for students, 160 00:18:52,840 --> 00:19:02,920 and they would first give first priority to New South Wales residents, then to Australians and then to overseas students. 161 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:12,880 And there has been some kickback from enterprises who are saying we don't mind providing work placements for young Australians. 162 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:20,590 However, we resent providing workplace experiences for full fee paying overseas students, for instance. 163 00:19:20,590 --> 00:19:32,930 So there's this is a contested area that's emerging as everybody, these different institutions want to access work experiences. 164 00:19:32,930 --> 00:19:35,810 So the first study was a pilot study, and it's fairly small. 165 00:19:35,810 --> 00:19:44,400 It involved four discipline areas of nursing, physiotherapy, human services and midwifery across five university programmes, 166 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:54,490 and the focus of this was how we would generate students, how we would assist students become active genetic learners and. 167 00:19:54,490 --> 00:20:02,230 The key premises are there that that work integrated learning is required to develop these forms of knowledge. 168 00:20:02,230 --> 00:20:08,350 But it was important that the students had to be positioned as actively in that process, 169 00:20:08,350 --> 00:20:16,330 and it looked at how we could generate these these qualities in those full discipline areas. 170 00:20:16,330 --> 00:20:21,610 The findings are as follows. Firstly, that preparation was provided. 171 00:20:21,610 --> 00:20:30,320 It was necessary to prepare students for engaging in the workplace that merely providing the experience was inadequate, 172 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:38,050 that more than that need to happen. And it was important to make the students of aware of of the active role that they had to play, 173 00:20:38,050 --> 00:20:44,020 that their engagement was going to be different than it might be in a more passive form of engagement, 174 00:20:44,020 --> 00:20:48,580 such as in a lecture or two told that they had a tutorial. 175 00:20:48,580 --> 00:21:00,880 They had a key role to engage. And having peer or other forms of support during that engagement was often important because it was very important for 176 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:07,660 students to talk to one another to understand what was going on to share experiences while they were having them. 177 00:21:07,660 --> 00:21:18,490 And the reports came through of of student nurses feeling very lonely in a place, a huge hospital because they were on their own and isolated. 178 00:21:18,490 --> 00:21:28,330 Yet the opportunities for them to come together in things like learning circles, et cetera, was helpful for them to make sense of those experiences. 179 00:21:28,330 --> 00:21:35,080 And students learnt the processes and valued this idea of being a genetic. 180 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:47,280 And from this was this importance of students having the opportunity to share, compare and contrast their experiences. 181 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:55,680 The next study. This was a pilot when the next study was a large study that went across an entire group of universities, 182 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:04,620 which in Australia recalled the the innovative research universities, these universities, I think there was a total of six involved in this project. 183 00:22:04,620 --> 00:22:11,130 The handout reporting the study is this one here, and I'm going to refer to a few aspects of it. 184 00:22:11,130 --> 00:22:20,250 And. What's interesting is that of these six universities, five of them were founded as being social science universities, 185 00:22:20,250 --> 00:22:26,340 but were moving to be what is referred to as a comprehensive university which offers medicine and law, 186 00:22:26,340 --> 00:22:36,240 et cetera, and a key a key concern that the graduates would be employable and that the knowledge learnt would be applicable. 187 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:44,940 The project comprised collaborative processes across 20 projects across six Australian universities. 188 00:22:44,940 --> 00:22:54,330 And this and the all of these three projects we had within them processes that was about capacity building for the participants, 189 00:22:54,330 --> 00:22:59,580 generating outcomes for them, as well as just participating in a project. 190 00:22:59,580 --> 00:23:08,790 And throughout the project, there was a sharing of of of across the projects to learn from each other that was done with face to face meetings. 191 00:23:08,790 --> 00:23:17,430 And as you know, Australia is a big place. So we had to use video conferences, but we had a dialogue forum where people came together to discuss. 192 00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:21,990 And the important thing is that the teachers participating in this weren't teaching heroes. 193 00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:26,160 These weren't necessarily people who were at the National Teaching Awards or whatever. 194 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:34,130 These were just plain folk who were balancing their teaching with other commitments, such as service and research. 195 00:23:34,130 --> 00:23:41,210 In terms of the kind of different purposes that that you can direct work integrated 196 00:23:41,210 --> 00:23:49,700 education towards are multifold and the the the here and when you look down that list, 197 00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:59,520 what you realise is that the these purposes have quite different focuses and quite different the processes leading to them. 198 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:06,300 Many students engage in programmes to participate in an occupation which they haven't experienced, 199 00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:10,080 and that's an issue because they think they want to do it. 200 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:18,270 But then we find, for instance, there's very high attrition rates. Nursing would be a good example of that where there's very high attrition rates. 201 00:24:18,270 --> 00:24:30,000 Same as teaching and some other occupations. And it's interesting with nursing also in vacation education, with hairdressing we have in Australia, 202 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:38,430 we have about a 50 percent attrition, more than 50 percent attrition rate in apprenticeships and hairdressing has a huge attrition rate. 203 00:24:38,430 --> 00:24:43,740 And that is that students female students, largely because that's what they are, 204 00:24:43,740 --> 00:24:48,750 dutifully complete a four year apprenticeship and then leave the occupation in droves. 205 00:24:48,750 --> 00:24:53,250 And I think it's an occupation like nursing, like hairdressing. 206 00:24:53,250 --> 00:24:55,560 Young women often engage in that at a time. 207 00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:03,600 They're forming a gender identity and think that being a nurse is a nice thing to do because you look after people and that's makes you a nice person, 208 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,180 and hairdressing is something that you know. 209 00:25:06,180 --> 00:25:14,610 And as a consequence of going into an occupation which they don't know anything about, that ultimately leads to very high attrition rates. 210 00:25:14,610 --> 00:25:18,180 There's a key difference between that, for instance, and if we take one of these have a goal, 211 00:25:18,180 --> 00:25:27,650 such as developing specific occupational skills, you having the opportunity to practise and learn to be a nurse to put. 212 00:25:27,650 --> 00:25:32,660 Dressings on all stents in ought to be a hairdresser to put rods and curlers and stuff in. 213 00:25:32,660 --> 00:25:40,640 So this this key differences in those particular goals and how they're to be achieved, and I'll return to that in a second. 214 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:50,030 Some of the key findings from this large study, the second one was that again, just having workplace experiences was was was was insufficient, 215 00:25:50,030 --> 00:25:55,370 that they needed to be augmented in some way and the importance of preparing students for and 216 00:25:55,370 --> 00:26:01,970 supporting them during and then finding some way of some way of connecting the experiences afterwards. 217 00:26:01,970 --> 00:26:10,520 Student readiness We often talk about student readiness in terms of their the technical readiness, their ability to engage effectively in something. 218 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:17,750 But there's also more than that, and that was their interest, and for many of them to go into the workplace was quite a challenge. 219 00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:26,000 For instance, one of my colleagues in physiotherapy was trying to engage physiotherapy students in understanding adult learning 220 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:34,250 principles just before they were going on their 13 week placement on a mat on that placement for the first time. 221 00:26:34,250 --> 00:26:43,700 They would be laying hens upon patients, and these patients weren't necessarily elite athletes whose limbs they were massaging. 222 00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:50,270 These were likely to be 80 year old people in aged care facilities and trying to get the phlegm off their chest. 223 00:26:50,270 --> 00:26:58,580 But for many of these students, this was the first time that they were about to be judged on anything other than writing assignments. 224 00:26:58,580 --> 00:27:07,760 And so the timing of of of what Liz tried to do was probably inappropriate simply because the students were focussed elsewhere. 225 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:14,510 As you can, I'm sure you can imagine and also hear the importance. 226 00:27:14,510 --> 00:27:18,380 So the importance of the the experience curriculum, 227 00:27:18,380 --> 00:27:27,320 what how students experience and students make sense of things and what the students said they wanted was incremental exposure. 228 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:35,750 They wanted to slowly engage in activities and be supported in that they didn't want to be thrown in the deep end. 229 00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:42,920 And so providing students with expectations about requirements was important. 230 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,200 Now a couple of tables here which are reproduced there is that here's some curriculum considerations 231 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:53,040 and the three concepts I used to help me make sense of curriculum the intended curriculum. 232 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,140 You know what is often written down in a document or a syllabus they enacted curriculum? 233 00:27:57,140 --> 00:28:04,550 What actually happens when it's enacted? And for me, the most important one is the experience curriculum, how students make sense of things. 234 00:28:04,550 --> 00:28:10,130 And in that table, there's a set of considerations for all of this. 235 00:28:10,130 --> 00:28:14,750 And I mean, I'll just take one of these to give you an example here, for instance, 236 00:28:14,750 --> 00:28:21,500 down here providing additional specific experiences for a group of students now. 237 00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:31,010 And one of the courses, it was a social work course, and many of the students doing the course were from overseas came straight from overseas, 238 00:28:31,010 --> 00:28:37,160 and many of them came from countries that didn't have social workers and didn't have a social welfare system. 239 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:45,080 And on week two of this course, they would be going out to work in social welfare settings, and they didn't have the basic understanding. 240 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,670 So what they did was they put a special programme on for the international students 241 00:28:49,670 --> 00:28:54,080 to help them understand social welfare society and the role of social workers, 242 00:28:54,080 --> 00:29:02,630 and that was to address their needs. It was interesting afterwards, the some of the lecturers said, Well, actually, 243 00:29:02,630 --> 00:29:08,270 probably many of the Australian students would benefit from that as well because they grew up in perhaps 244 00:29:08,270 --> 00:29:15,290 middle class families and didn't have hadn't had experience of the justice system or anything like that. 245 00:29:15,290 --> 00:29:22,970 So through thinking about it, they said, Well, actually, we probably made some assumptions about the Australian students as well. 246 00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:30,590 Now, in another publication, what I did was those series of educational purposes. 247 00:29:30,590 --> 00:29:33,570 What I tried to think about is what are the consequences? 248 00:29:33,570 --> 00:29:41,180 Well, the curriculum consequences for timing and sequence duration, organisation and engagement and kinds of experiences. 249 00:29:41,180 --> 00:29:45,200 So that the simple point I'm making here is that depending upon what kind of 250 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:50,210 educational purpose you're trying to achieve is likely to be quite different. 251 00:29:50,210 --> 00:29:54,950 Approaches need to be taken and the experiences that are provided. 252 00:29:54,950 --> 00:30:01,970 And then in terms of the pedagogical practises for that come from this, 253 00:30:01,970 --> 00:30:10,880 it was easy to try and locate things of what happens before students go into the workplace, during the workplace experience and after them. 254 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:20,150 And just to take an example. What? I don't know what happens in Britain, but what preparing for contestation that might arise. 255 00:30:20,150 --> 00:30:27,110 So many students report they go into the workplace and people in the workplace say, forget that rubbish you've learnt at. 256 00:30:27,110 --> 00:30:31,820 University, this is what we do here now. 257 00:30:31,820 --> 00:30:37,520 If you prepare the students and say, well, that might happen and you need to make some judgements about whether what 258 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,630 we've taught you is rubbish and what you're being asked to do is appropriate, 259 00:30:41,630 --> 00:30:48,260 or is there some sort of middle ground that you don't have to take on your supervisors, but you need to think about those things? 260 00:30:48,260 --> 00:30:57,410 So preparing for those sort of things may might be helpful and emphasising, for instance, 261 00:30:57,410 --> 00:31:05,520 that that students need to take an active role as a learner during their work 262 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:11,150 work the time the and things that they might want to do after those experiences. 263 00:31:11,150 --> 00:31:20,900 So that was a set of of of pedagogic concerns that that drove practise out of that 264 00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:26,690 study became pretty obvious that once students had had the workplace experiences, 265 00:31:26,690 --> 00:31:35,510 they had something to share, compare and contrast with. So that if you only had a pound to spend, that would be the place to spend it. 266 00:31:35,510 --> 00:31:46,460 So this third study, which is the one I'm trying to complete as soon as I can spend the money and on the interest is the focus of this was 267 00:31:46,460 --> 00:31:54,500 to promote learning student learning associated associated with employability through post practicum interventions. 268 00:31:54,500 --> 00:32:03,590 That is, once students have had that experience is what kind of interventions can we have to engage with them to enrich the learning experiences? 269 00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:12,410 And again, this was a large project. It involved a lot of a lot of folk about a total of over 40 projects across. 270 00:32:12,410 --> 00:32:24,140 I think it was 25 disciplines, over 16 universities, I think, and we started off with one group of individuals which were from health care. 271 00:32:24,140 --> 00:32:33,290 There was 14 projects in health and social care. That's medicine, nursing, midwifery, dietetics, speech pathology, 272 00:32:33,290 --> 00:32:40,550 etc. And we started with a developmental conference where these people came together and we talked about what we would do, how would go about it. 273 00:32:40,550 --> 00:32:44,420 They had total freedom to engage in the project they wanted. 274 00:32:44,420 --> 00:32:50,180 So the first round occurred and then they came back a year later and presented their 275 00:32:50,180 --> 00:32:58,640 processes and findings to 30 other projects to go forward over the the next year. 276 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:06,800 And across all of these, there are a range of approaches adopted to engaging students in these post practicum experiences, 277 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:12,080 feedback, learning circles, debriefs, et cetera, et cetera. 278 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,460 And we also ran a student survey, 279 00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:27,920 and it was interesting to see what purposes did students want to engage in post practicum experiences and what kind of process did they prefer? 280 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,180 Now this is where you begin to find out gaps in your own knowledge. 281 00:33:32,180 --> 00:33:40,820 One of the assumptions behind this entire project was that the students would be very keen to organise their experiences, 282 00:33:40,820 --> 00:33:46,460 and that came from study number two that students thought this would be a good thing to do. 283 00:33:46,460 --> 00:33:54,260 And the survey results said quite the opposite. So I will show you some of the data here. 284 00:33:54,260 --> 00:34:03,440 We've gone on having published from this as you do, and there was a series of interventions which we suggested to the students they 285 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,990 might like and they to say which of these they wanted and for what reason. 286 00:34:08,990 --> 00:34:19,220 And here is some findings. So what the students said, and I should say, first of all, these students were all from the health and social care system. 287 00:34:19,220 --> 00:34:26,930 And that is, they're they're engaging in occupations that tend to be have a very hierarchical structure to them. 288 00:34:26,930 --> 00:34:33,260 So they might not that might be they might not be common to other areas. But this was the common group here. 289 00:34:33,260 --> 00:34:39,260 And they said that their preference was in terms of purposes was to gauge how they were progressing, 290 00:34:39,260 --> 00:34:47,030 which is not surprising and further develop their occupational capacity so that they would be employed upon graduation. 291 00:34:47,030 --> 00:34:56,900 And so that they wanted to know about their readiness to secure employment, how they were progressing and the processes they suggested they wanted. 292 00:34:56,900 --> 00:35:03,920 Those that were led, facilitated by and guided by teachers or experts, clinicians, for instance. 293 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:12,290 And they preferred those over student organised and led processes, which is quite the opposite of what I'd expected. 294 00:35:12,290 --> 00:35:20,750 And there was a alignment with what the students were saying, what they wanted to achieve and the processes that they wanted to achieve it. 295 00:35:20,750 --> 00:35:26,860 So there's some coherence there in what they're proposing. And students placed low value. 296 00:35:26,860 --> 00:35:33,850 On peer assistance and feedback, which was terribly depressing. And this contradict contradicts much of the literature, 297 00:35:33,850 --> 00:35:42,580 which is indicating that students want to come together to do this, and they wanted to engage effectively. 298 00:35:42,580 --> 00:35:48,670 And it sort of heightens the concern for us as educators about how do we respond to that, 299 00:35:48,670 --> 00:35:56,980 do respond to it is is what is that's what they want or do we respond in a different way and say, well, that's not what what should be. 300 00:35:56,980 --> 00:36:02,830 Should we challenge them? Should we make them engage in these activities? Here's some of the data. 301 00:36:02,830 --> 00:36:10,390 So this is data which indicates their preferences for particular interventions, 302 00:36:10,390 --> 00:36:15,560 and you'll see across here that that's an aggregation of high preference, OK? 303 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:22,150 Then over here would not participate. So this is trying to capture time jealous students, 304 00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:32,230 and you'll see that the things they wanted and preferred were working in small groups to three of six three to six students small groups, 305 00:36:32,230 --> 00:36:39,520 one on one with teacher, one on, one with more experienced students and then small groups. 306 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,440 Now this I don't know what you have here. We have called vice chancellors in Australia, 307 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:52,120 people who run universities and this is their nightmare because what they want is they want 300 students in a lecture theatre. 308 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:57,340 And that's that. And the idea of what these students are asking for is quite the opposite of what they want. 309 00:36:57,340 --> 00:37:04,120 It's also interesting looking at what they didn't want, and you'll see down here that the students didn't want. 310 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:14,750 For instance, online mode online moderated by a tutor online with peers presentation to peers that wasn't at all popular. 311 00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:22,550 And something students should organise, they didn't like that at all. Now the point is that students have the capacity to engage or disengage. 312 00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:32,750 And that's why it's important to capture those in the first round, which was in the health and social care. 313 00:37:32,750 --> 00:37:38,360 These are the kind of stress strategies that we used you'll see down here. 314 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,930 The first one, for instance, was an oral assessment task. 315 00:37:41,930 --> 00:37:49,880 And this was used to help nursing students demonstrate and practise their ability to engage in clinical reasoning. 316 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,110 So rather than write a case on a patient condition, 317 00:37:54,110 --> 00:37:59,810 what they're asked to do is to give an oral presentation, which is what they would have to do on the ward. 318 00:37:59,810 --> 00:38:07,430 And so it's putting them in a position where they were replicating the kind of performance they would need to do on the ward and perhaps to a doctor, 319 00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:16,640 for instance. Then there was written assignments and then there was reflective writing and a structured learning circles. 320 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:25,070 And there was structured clinical debriefing sessions and that was with medical students and medical students are the ones that 321 00:38:25,070 --> 00:38:32,330 claim that they are the most time jealous and with some justification because they do have an incredibly intense programme. 322 00:38:32,330 --> 00:38:39,140 And then personalised feedback and then workshops comprising experiences. 323 00:38:39,140 --> 00:38:45,620 There's a whole range of these initiatives, which were enacted far too many to refer to here. 324 00:38:45,620 --> 00:38:49,940 And some of the key issues that came and this is almost the last slide. 325 00:38:49,940 --> 00:38:57,360 You'll be pleased to know some of the key issues that came from this are as follows that. 326 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:06,630 Firstly, learner expectation. Students really valued these interventions when they could see the worth in them, 327 00:39:06,630 --> 00:39:15,060 when they built their capacities to be able to practise effectively in a way that reflected the stage 328 00:39:15,060 --> 00:39:23,370 of readiness where they were at and the kind of goals they were trying to achieve and readiness 329 00:39:23,370 --> 00:39:30,060 and is important in terms of students being adequately prepared for practicum so they can go in and 330 00:39:30,060 --> 00:39:36,750 contribute something and they've got something to share and negotiate with with other students. 331 00:39:36,750 --> 00:39:42,630 And this issue kept on coming up about students being Tom Jealous or time pressures. 332 00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:51,960 For instance, in one of the projects, the. It was in dietetics and at the end of the end of the year, 333 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,890 they brought all of that as dietetic students together and put them through this daylong group 334 00:39:55,890 --> 00:40:01,920 process where they shared their ideas and they started off one on one move to small groups, 335 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,670 and they're allowed to exclude things that they didn't want to share with others. 336 00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:14,250 And then they moved into a whole group activity. The students rated it as being a very productive session. 337 00:40:14,250 --> 00:40:20,460 They thought it was great. But when they asked them, would you repeat it, would you be involved in again? 338 00:40:20,460 --> 00:40:24,260 It was very high incidence of them saying no. 339 00:40:24,260 --> 00:40:31,010 So even something that I appreciated the whole time jealousy thing, so this whole issue of engagement of students is not something that's trivial. 340 00:40:31,010 --> 00:40:43,030 I think it's quite central to to what's going on. And this other issue is, do you make an activity compulsory or voluntary? 341 00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:46,330 If you make it compulsory, students engage in it, 342 00:40:46,330 --> 00:40:54,070 but they might engage in it quite superficially and other work I've done with students doing learning journals, you know, 343 00:40:54,070 --> 00:40:58,570 with the right up journals in midwifery and in one programme, 344 00:40:58,570 --> 00:41:06,100 the students had to write up a learning journal for every print, you know, at the birth of every child. 345 00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:13,110 And the first ones were written out in great detail. Poetic. 346 00:41:13,110 --> 00:41:17,970 It was a clear night. The child's cry was heard. 347 00:41:17,970 --> 00:41:21,240 A baby is born by thirty two. 348 00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:29,250 It was the sperm dropped out. And so these things can lose their impact because by the time they get to that one, the sick of them. 349 00:41:29,250 --> 00:41:35,790 So it's a consideration of how effective these things can be to be useful. 350 00:41:35,790 --> 00:41:43,890 So if you make them compulsory, there's a risk. And the other thing was, by the way, that in that project on student midwives, 351 00:41:43,890 --> 00:41:49,690 they said, we interviewed graduates, they said we just fed you back what you wanted. 352 00:41:49,690 --> 00:41:56,080 It wasn't they weren't really reflecting on the stuff they were actually feeding back to pass the course like they were saying, 353 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,630 we fed you about what you wanted because they were very busy people. 354 00:41:58,630 --> 00:42:07,330 By the way, most of them were women who had family care responsibilities and had to do what is called a 30 follow throughs, 355 00:42:07,330 --> 00:42:13,960 which is following 30 women through the entire birthing process. And that was on top of all their responsibilities. 356 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:20,860 If, however, you make them voluntary. Of course, the students that perhaps most need to turn up don't turn up. 357 00:42:20,860 --> 00:42:25,540 So what do you do? A couple of examples came from this project, which I thought were interesting. 358 00:42:25,540 --> 00:42:30,490 And one was both of them were actually from medical students who are the most time jealous of students. 359 00:42:30,490 --> 00:42:35,130 And in both instances, the students seem to find the activity important. 360 00:42:35,130 --> 00:42:40,210 The the teachers, a woman called Julia Harrison from Monash University in Melbourne, 361 00:42:40,210 --> 00:42:44,380 and she's she's an emergency physician and teaches medical students. 362 00:42:44,380 --> 00:42:52,510 The first one was she gave the students a series of case scenarios online that they had to respond to and they only had to respond to. 363 00:42:52,510 --> 00:42:57,370 I think it was two. And what she found that many of them engaged in three or four. 364 00:42:57,370 --> 00:43:06,640 So they did more than that because they found that to be useful. The other thing she did was that she had this debriefing activity where the students 365 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,360 had to come along because I can element of the course they have to learn about. 366 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:17,530 And after that, they were put in groups and allowed to discuss recent incidents they'd had in clinical practise. 367 00:43:17,530 --> 00:43:21,880 And this provided a sort of a private space that they could share with other students, 368 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,260 the experiences they'd had, the disappointments they have, perhaps the mistakes they've made. 369 00:43:26,260 --> 00:43:31,000 And once that was established, while not all students attended, 370 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:36,430 a significant number of the students attended because there was a combination of things that turn up for, 371 00:43:36,430 --> 00:43:39,310 but also an opportunity to share experiences. 372 00:43:39,310 --> 00:43:46,030 So I think it's a difficult balance to make something compulsory with some is superficial, responded to or to make something voluntary. 373 00:43:46,030 --> 00:43:53,350 So I think the Julia succeeded coming up with an instructional design which was engaging for the students 374 00:43:53,350 --> 00:44:02,790 and associated that was having a safe environment in which students can come to share their experiences, 375 00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:07,600 you know, their mistakes and what's been confronting for them. 376 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:16,870 And that seems to be very important. And I keep on coming across this in a range of a range of disciplines within health care in particular, 377 00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:22,240 where students want to engage with others with whom they can share issues and 378 00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:26,500 have confidence in those people and those people will keep their confidence, 379 00:44:26,500 --> 00:44:34,030 etc. And that actually goes on into practise. And then if you're aware, but there's something in and professional development of doctors, 380 00:44:34,030 --> 00:44:39,760 which are called journal clubs, and this is where they come together extensively to read journals. 381 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:46,210 But in actual fact, their practise often is that they share recent clinical experiences, 382 00:44:46,210 --> 00:44:50,320 and they do so in a group of people that they can be confident and sharing. 383 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:57,130 It's confidential. And they know it won't go beyond the group, but these are very powerful learning experiences. 384 00:44:57,130 --> 00:45:03,640 So this issue of having a psychologically safe space seem to be important. 385 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:12,250 And, yeah, so trying to align interventions that with what the students need to learn and 386 00:45:12,250 --> 00:45:16,240 this and how they will engage in the course outcome seems to be essential. 387 00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:23,350 And I think, for instance, the work that Julia did with her medical students and and some of the others, by the way, was quite effective. 388 00:45:23,350 --> 00:45:28,160 And there in this book that we published earlier this year in some to finish them, 389 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:34,720 I think we need to position work integrated education well within current discussions about tertiary education. 390 00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:41,710 And this requirement for making people to be job ready and changing requirements have been Japanese 391 00:45:41,710 --> 00:45:50,500 and to assist students effectively engage in the learning process of work integrated education. 392 00:45:50,500 --> 00:45:56,860 And I think there's clear roles in addressing both those agendas and trying to assist 393 00:45:56,860 --> 00:46:03,370 individuals identify what pathways and occupational destinations they want to secure. 394 00:46:03,370 --> 00:46:12,310 And I think importantly, we need obviously students to learn the canons the canonical knowledge of the occupation, 395 00:46:12,310 --> 00:46:19,390 but also have the ability to understand that how practise occurs is going to be different. 396 00:46:19,390 --> 00:46:25,390 And the reality is that yes, the students might have spent considerable time in a work setting, 397 00:46:25,390 --> 00:46:32,080 but the job that they get on graduation might not and is unlikely to be in the in that kind of setting. 398 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:40,960 So making and developing the ability to be adaptable to those circumstances seems to be an important educational goal. 399 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:46,420 And sitting within that is that ability to learn across working life. 400 00:46:46,420 --> 00:46:58,390 And hopefully then if this is done effectively, there's a prospect of achieving both societal goals because we want effective doctors and nurses, 401 00:46:58,390 --> 00:47:05,950 et cetera, as well as assisting people engage effectively in those occupations and not leave them, for instance. 402 00:47:05,950 --> 00:47:18,058 OK, so I'll finish there and hopefully some time for questions.