1 00:00:01,150 --> 00:00:14,610 You know, and I have to say that in contrast to all these wonderfully prepared fluent and elegant papers and and and both Andy and Jeremy's remarks, 2 00:00:14,610 --> 00:00:16,950 mine are going to probably seem a bit scattergun. 3 00:00:16,950 --> 00:00:25,310 And this is really because I'm a historian of international relations and I've been working in the field of the sort of new, 4 00:00:25,310 --> 00:00:33,630 newer histories of international institutions in the 19th and 20th century that in some way should connect to undo, 5 00:00:33,630 --> 00:00:39,630 connect to the history of capitalism. But I'm also full in 1919 mode with the founding of the League of Nations. 6 00:00:39,630 --> 00:00:44,280 And what's been very striking there is the way that markets are absent. 7 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:51,670 So last week I was at an event in Lisbon where they had originally a hundred and thirty five submissions of papers on the League of Nations. 8 00:00:51,670 --> 00:00:58,200 It's kind of I was shocked at how much history you could get out of, although you know about to be entirely digitised archive. 9 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:04,020 But really, the challenge and for me, one of the core framings of my own work is the relationship, 10 00:01:04,020 --> 00:01:08,490 you know, formed by Andy Warhol's work between states, markets and civil society. 11 00:01:08,490 --> 00:01:13,620 When we're trying to understand global order and how that's institutionalised and 12 00:01:13,620 --> 00:01:17,880 the kind of emergence of global governance from the mid-19th century onwards. 13 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:26,190 And what's very striking in discussions about the history of the League of Nations on the United Nations and all of its 91 different institutions, 14 00:01:26,190 --> 00:01:33,240 as well as NGOs, is in that field of writing. You get the interaction of civil society and states. 15 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,750 But how that then connects to markets is much less well developed. 16 00:01:37,750 --> 00:01:44,340 So I sort of in that sense, my reflections pick up where where Jeremy's ended. 17 00:01:44,340 --> 00:01:51,540 And of course, partly the drive has been to understand where these institutions come from and what drives them from the inside. 18 00:01:51,540 --> 00:02:00,510 And what that's revealed, on the one hand, is the interplay and the primacy of interstate relations from the late 19th century international 19 00:02:00,510 --> 00:02:06,270 markets as an inter national with a hyphen in between rather than transnational currents. 20 00:02:06,270 --> 00:02:09,480 That's one thing that's there, and it's strongly asserted, 21 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:17,400 but it's also a contradiction in the writing of these new international organisations is also it's clear that they are spaces, 22 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,910 whether they're on a kind of global level or on a regional level. 23 00:02:20,910 --> 00:02:26,850 Also, for claims to be made and for new worlds, new world orders to be imagined and articulated. 24 00:02:26,850 --> 00:02:36,330 So these two sort of fields are a way of connecting also to the history of of of of the divergence and the history of of capitalism. 25 00:02:36,330 --> 00:02:44,520 It's where public policy is debated and contested. It's where imperialism is challenged, sometimes in very weak forms. 26 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:51,240 But nonetheless, the archives of these institutions are a way of really retrieving that dynamic. 27 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:57,600 And, of course, international organisations in the history until very recently are also a kind of forcing ground 28 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:03,600 for for capitalism to have that sort of deeper trends that have been driving that history, 29 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:13,230 on the one hand, have been to look at legal norms because this is a place at which global governance a world order hits the ground because it, 30 00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:17,250 you know, the legal norms are then the basis of contestation. 31 00:03:17,250 --> 00:03:21,000 And you know, I've been engaged in some bizarre conversations with international lawyers. 32 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:30,350 Why I suddenly realised that international lawyers thinks that international law de-politicize is the global order. 33 00:03:30,350 --> 00:03:35,880 Well, it does absolutely the opposite. It actually just becomes a new field of contestation. 34 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:41,430 And of course, living here, you know, BRICS is absolutely that you just think like going to lose your mind. 35 00:03:41,430 --> 00:03:45,630 But, you know, in particular, one of the areas that where it would connect very particularly. 36 00:03:45,630 --> 00:03:52,500 I think this sort of the importance of legal norms is to some of the issues that surfaced that surfaced in the last panel in particular, 37 00:03:52,500 --> 00:03:57,000 because on the one hand, the narrative of the, you know, the emergence of global capitalism. 38 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,230 We talked yesterday in particular about free trade, of course, is about legal norms, 39 00:04:01,230 --> 00:04:06,660 particularly the most favoured nations clause being used as a way of liberating and opening up trade. 40 00:04:06,660 --> 00:04:08,970 But of course, the other side of that, to me, is paper. 41 00:04:08,970 --> 00:04:17,250 It was very clear that you also have at the same time as that's operating the emergence of enormous discrimination against the labour market. 42 00:04:17,250 --> 00:04:25,320 And we tend to write that history separately. But of course, those conversations are happening in dialogue with one another. 43 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,760 And I remember listening years ago to a paper presented in Australia, which actually oddly brought that out, 44 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:34,590 though the the the person who was writing about labour discrimination against the Chinese didn't 45 00:04:34,590 --> 00:04:39,930 realise that the Chinese critique was actually using the language of free trade around it. 46 00:04:39,930 --> 00:04:46,710 So there's quite a lot of work there that we could still do. 47 00:04:46,710 --> 00:04:51,810 The other element in that, too, is the other kind of stand, apart from looking at new legal norms, 48 00:04:51,810 --> 00:04:56,160 is also focussing on practises that's shaped in particular from the field of AI. 49 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,980 Also looking at the practise term it practise turn. 50 00:04:59,980 --> 00:05:05,050 In the way that institutions, non-governmental organisations, international institutions, 51 00:05:05,050 --> 00:05:10,480 regional institutions operate, so how they establish ways of working the international, 52 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:17,170 the global and of course, what that's really brought out on the one hand in relation to global capital is the 53 00:05:17,170 --> 00:05:22,090 importance until very recently of the growth paradigm that that's there all over the place. 54 00:05:22,090 --> 00:05:26,890 And it's a way of of stabilising, stabilising capital, stabilising and shaping markets. 55 00:05:26,890 --> 00:05:38,750 And of course, you know, resolving conflicts over distribution of resources of different kinds and. 56 00:05:38,750 --> 00:05:45,500 And I suppose the further strand is the primacy of economics in that, you know, 57 00:05:45,500 --> 00:05:49,910 that economists also serve economic serves as the dominant scientific paradigm, 58 00:05:49,910 --> 00:05:56,360 and economists start to proliferate in states and in all sorts of organisations in different ways. 59 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:01,970 And people who were writing in different fields become economists in the period that I'm that I'm studying. 60 00:06:01,970 --> 00:06:08,090 But also, of course, the challenge to the growth paradigm emerges in international organisations, particularly. 61 00:06:08,090 --> 00:06:16,460 So of course, I'm thinking of the OECD's report on the limits of growth and the way that that's now destabilising. 62 00:06:16,460 --> 00:06:22,370 The purpose of international organisations and also their priorities. 63 00:06:22,370 --> 00:06:27,380 And in that dynamic to the relationship between expert advice. 64 00:06:27,380 --> 00:06:32,100 I mean, this is something that's a very live issue in the League of Nations and what they're called representative advice. 65 00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:40,130 So the dynamic in the relationship between science, what science is doing and then the elected or empowered representatives. 66 00:06:40,130 --> 00:06:49,890 And however, however, that might be configured. So, yeah, so I suppose that's also something it's not so much the place of economics, 67 00:06:49,890 --> 00:06:58,830 but also the place of economists and economic thinking in in in the in the in the global order that is 68 00:06:58,830 --> 00:07:08,000 now being challenged and the roots of an alternative version of the rules based international system. 69 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:13,070 In terms of the kind of architecture of international relations and understanding the place of capitalism, 70 00:07:13,070 --> 00:07:17,630 one of the things that in my own work is especially striking is the way that 71 00:07:17,630 --> 00:07:24,260 from the in the wake of really crisis after crisis in the 1920s and 1930s, 72 00:07:24,260 --> 00:07:29,630 the management of capitalism becomes the dominant focus of the organisation of the League of Nations, 73 00:07:29,630 --> 00:07:38,840 which is a multipurpose organisation, and that becomes the basis on which a new liberal order, a new world order, is imagined after 1945. 74 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,850 But what distinguishes that world order is the separation of the management of capital 75 00:07:43,850 --> 00:07:49,220 from the management of labour markets in the sense that goes and is remains in the ILO. 76 00:07:49,220 --> 00:07:55,310 Whereas you have the Bretton Woods institutions which are about managing capital, and then you have the GATT, 77 00:07:55,310 --> 00:08:01,100 which is about managing trade and you have the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation, which is about managing food. 78 00:08:01,100 --> 00:08:10,370 So there's also a compartmentalisation of capitalism and how it operates that is now we know 79 00:08:10,370 --> 00:08:14,780 is challenged by some of the issues that were raised in the last panel about labour rights, 80 00:08:14,780 --> 00:08:23,150 about racism because that also sort of stabilises capitalism, but it stabilises it in a very particular form. 81 00:08:23,150 --> 00:08:30,110 Inside those organisations, though, it's often the discourse is not necessarily about stability or about capital. 82 00:08:30,110 --> 00:08:34,190 It's about security. It's about the origins of war. 83 00:08:34,190 --> 00:08:41,870 And I think that's also one of the risky territories that we're entering into now because of the language around conflict and conflict resource. 84 00:08:41,870 --> 00:08:44,990 You know, the world now is finite. It has finite resources. 85 00:08:44,990 --> 00:08:51,590 I mean, this is a kind of classic trope of the 1920s, the 1930s, whether those are hard commodities or soft commodities. 86 00:08:51,590 --> 00:08:59,030 They are now finite, whereas there were periods after 1945 where there was a sort of sense in which they might be infinite, 87 00:08:59,030 --> 00:09:03,320 that you could just keep developing, you could keep growing and these problems would resolve themselves. 88 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:09,950 And I think that that's also just to finish on something that came up a number of times yesterday and today I was 89 00:09:09,950 --> 00:09:19,100 thinking particularly of Rebecca's very sort of sharp interventions about gender because and authority in these debates, 90 00:09:19,100 --> 00:09:26,840 really, because that's very, you know, that's a that's a very marked something I'm sort of engaged with at the moment. 91 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:35,540 And I was really shocked when Patricia Owens bomb a year ago presented some of her research on the place of women in international relations. 92 00:09:35,540 --> 00:09:43,280 And she did this kind of schema of women being cited when it comes to the history of war and peace, which is really what drives much of I thought. 93 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:49,940 And she discovered that only three women are cited as authorities in the field of AI are Susan Strange, 94 00:09:49,940 --> 00:09:59,210 who writes Actually on the political economy Rosa Luxemburg, and I've just managed to forget the third one, which is really terrible. 95 00:09:59,210 --> 00:10:04,820 Hannah Arendt, of course, those those three, those three and even those three only make up, 96 00:10:04,820 --> 00:10:08,720 I think, nine and two point nine, seven percent of all citations. 97 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:18,050 It's just shocking. And of course, that's where the history of capitalism and actually the history of war and peace animates so many women. 98 00:10:18,050 --> 00:10:24,530 But women in the history of in the kind of states and civil market version of international history, 99 00:10:24,530 --> 00:10:30,530 their interventions are described as humanitarian. All they're described as being preoccupied with women's rights. 100 00:10:30,530 --> 00:10:36,440 No, they are writing about the effects of capital and capitalism on the prospects of, 101 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,550 you know, of their families and on the prospects of war and peace and so on. 102 00:10:40,550 --> 00:10:47,400 That little homily I will on the Sunday morning and thank you.