1 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:17,380 Narrative features. How did the stories we tell shape how we think about the future, the present and the past? 2 00:00:17,380 --> 00:00:27,380 What is speculation for and how might we construct better narratives for a better future? 3 00:00:27,380 --> 00:00:31,180 Narrative Futures is a podcast coming to you from Futures Thinking. 4 00:00:31,180 --> 00:00:41,280 A research network housed in the Oxford Centre for Research in the Humanities. 5 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:47,970 My name is Chelsea. Hey, I'm a doctoral researcher in the faculty of English here at the University of Oxford. 6 00:00:47,970 --> 00:00:55,650 Our guest for this fourth episode of Narrative Futures is Mahvish Murad, joining us to discuss editing speculative fiction, 7 00:00:55,650 --> 00:01:05,370 the art of the short story and the narrative and aesthetic value of Tick-Tock. 8 00:01:05,370 --> 00:01:08,850 This podcast is interactive, following the interview, 9 00:01:08,850 --> 00:01:16,380 you'll be treated to to writing prompts designed by novelist and creative writing tutor extraordinaire Louis Greenberg. 10 00:01:16,380 --> 00:01:26,100 We invite you to share your response to these with us via email at Futures Thinking at torch dot o x, dot ac dot UK. 11 00:01:26,100 --> 00:01:33,000 We'll share these on the blog where you'll also be able to find the full transcript of each episode with links to the books, 12 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:38,180 writers and ideas that we discuss. As the world so radically changes, 13 00:01:38,180 --> 00:01:49,300 we hope these conversations and ideas give you insight and inspiration to think about how else we might live and create collectively going forward. 14 00:01:49,300 --> 00:01:56,000 Mahvish Mirrored is an editor and voice artist from Karachi, Pakistan, who currently lives in Kuala Lumpur. 15 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:05,400 She is the editor for the Apex Book of World S.F. Vol. four and co-editor of the World Fantasy Award nominated short story collections, 16 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:10,040 The Jen Falls in Love and Other Stories and the Outcast Hours. 17 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:21,140 She writes about books regularly for Pakistan's leading English newspaper, Dawn and for dot com. 18 00:02:21,140 --> 00:02:26,840 So you want a longtime podcast's around midnight in Karachi where you've interviewed the likes of Margaret Atwood, 19 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:32,300 Emily Sinjin, Mendo, Medea Carful and Sami Shah, who also appears on this podcast. 20 00:02:32,300 --> 00:02:39,110 You also edit anthologies extensively and review frequently. So there's a few media forms that you work in. 21 00:02:39,110 --> 00:02:46,760 Do you have a preference for writing? No, I have a preference for reading. 22 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:52,990 I write answer for I have a purpose in reading and I have a preference for stories and that that's my answer. 23 00:02:52,990 --> 00:02:59,830 I'm going to stick to it. Absolutely. So when you're reading, do you have a favourite kind of form? 24 00:02:59,830 --> 00:03:05,920 So I'm thinking about obviously the outcast hours and the Djinn falls in love and other stories and of course, 25 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:09,910 the Apex Book of World Asef Volume four that you edited. 26 00:03:09,910 --> 00:03:15,940 What draws you to a short story? I'm going to answer this, but I'm not being facetious. 27 00:03:15,940 --> 00:03:23,060 The thing that struck me most to a short story is if it's actually short and I think brevity is key to a great deal of short stories, 28 00:03:23,060 --> 00:03:29,140 an end to the impact a short story makes. And this is something that I wanted very much to do with Jim. 29 00:03:29,140 --> 00:03:34,900 And I think Jode knew it from the start because people would ask us what we were doing, promo work for that anthology. 30 00:03:34,900 --> 00:03:38,620 What makes a good story? And I read what makes a good short story. 31 00:03:38,620 --> 00:03:46,390 And I would always say if it's short, because I think overindulgent editors also let some writers just write too much. 32 00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:53,560 But that can be said for novels, too. Yeah, I think that there's I think there's something really special about getting a short story to that perfect 33 00:03:53,560 --> 00:04:01,720 intersection of being concise and and also kind of leaving you or or never leaving you rather me. 34 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,750 My favourite short stories are the ones that just never go away. I think so. 35 00:04:05,750 --> 00:04:11,680 Shows reefers is something like that. Yeah. I'm really proud of Reep and. 36 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:16,690 I knew him socially and grazi much before he started writing fiction or I 37 00:04:16,690 --> 00:04:21,370 started doing this and I knew when I was putting DJed together that I needed. 38 00:04:21,370 --> 00:04:26,350 There was no way I could put this together without somebody from Karachi. And so it was the perfect person for it. 39 00:04:26,350 --> 00:04:31,930 And he is really great about his fiction because he's not precious about editing. 40 00:04:31,930 --> 00:04:35,290 I could flash out large chunks and say, you don't need this. You don't need this. 41 00:04:35,290 --> 00:04:42,190 Don't get carried away. And he can handle it. And it just ends up with a fart data through Saffy's. 42 00:04:42,190 --> 00:04:48,910 It's the tightness. It's almost the way we describe music, right. With the tightness of the short story and the like, the tightness of a band. 43 00:04:48,910 --> 00:04:52,480 And that's kind of what what creates that quality in your editing work. 44 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:57,490 What are you looking for when you are thinking about taking on somebody or, you know, 45 00:04:57,490 --> 00:05:04,540 you're reading something that's been published and you just kind of trying to draw out what is what is special about that text? 46 00:05:04,540 --> 00:05:11,800 It depends on who it is. When you ask about what I'm looking for in a short story, if I'm thinking about commissioning somebody, 47 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:18,160 then to be perfectly honest, we don't have any sort of open goal for these anthologies for Djin or Outcaste. 48 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,200 We had a very long list of writers and Jardín. 49 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:27,280 I'm not afraid to ask people who, you know, short of being dead, are impossible. 50 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:31,690 We have no problems getting knows for an answer, but people were also amazing. 51 00:05:31,690 --> 00:05:38,110 As you can see from the table of contents, we had all sorts of amazing people who said yes for both anthologies. 52 00:05:38,110 --> 00:05:43,400 So ultimately, if I look for somebody that somebody from whom I would just want to read a short story, 53 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,940 not necessarily edit one and not of course, everyone wants or needs editing. 54 00:05:48,940 --> 00:05:53,920 I guess we've been very lucky because all our writers have been very open to suggestions. But, you know, I'm not going to lie. 55 00:05:53,920 --> 00:06:01,240 It was really tough writing to Marina Warner, Dave Marino and saying, look, you we need to take a second look at your opening. 56 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:10,330 That was not easy now, but I think it's the task of a good a good editor to go in and no matter the status, do a bit of fixing. 57 00:06:10,330 --> 00:06:14,800 I can think of some writers who are doing very well and are very lauded, 58 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:21,430 who have kind of recent work makes me think, oh, I think your editors are just letting you do whatever. 59 00:06:21,430 --> 00:06:24,700 Oh, absolutely. And so many I see there's so much in fixin's. 60 00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:29,620 Well, and it comes back to lenth for me sometimes because there are books that I read that are good. 61 00:06:29,620 --> 00:06:33,700 But at the end of it all, I want to hold that book up and to shake it. 62 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:37,030 So all the excess falls off. 63 00:06:37,030 --> 00:06:45,010 And I feel like the editor has not done that because the writers, you know, published 20 books or won 500 awards or whatever it is. 64 00:06:45,010 --> 00:06:52,690 But at some point you have people like let's not take names, but you have famous writers who are just playing famous writers to not end it. 65 00:06:52,690 --> 00:06:58,720 Yes. So I think an editor needs to be a little more responsible to the story and less to the writer. 66 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:06,580 I think it's certainly during the writers service. And you'd be doing the story a disservice if he didn't try and kind of mine it from the rough. 67 00:07:06,580 --> 00:07:12,940 But at the same time, you have to keep in mind that's one perspective. Right. If I can go back to some is read as an example. 68 00:07:12,940 --> 00:07:17,500 If I remember correctly, he and I did five jobs. I mean, he did five draughts. 69 00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:25,120 I just gave him opinions on five jobs. And then eventually he made a case for the fourth job that made more sense. 70 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:30,430 And we went back to it. Luckily, he wasn't precious about the fact that he did a whole extra job that wasn't used, 71 00:07:30,430 --> 00:07:34,480 but it didn't mean that my opinion was 100 percent at the end. 72 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,250 Right. He made a good case for it. And we went with the fourth draught and it ended up being the best one. 73 00:07:39,250 --> 00:07:42,770 So it is still a matter of perspective. At some point, I guess you have to. 74 00:07:42,770 --> 00:07:46,530 The way to trust each other. I think a good story is a good story. 75 00:07:46,530 --> 00:07:54,680 Mm hmm. And that's it. I completely agree. I think it's like when he uses the literary geto phrase. 76 00:07:54,680 --> 00:08:03,510 Yeah. How do you feel about about that debate? I don't like the ghettoising of genre fiction. 77 00:08:03,510 --> 00:08:10,170 Out to the lines, the ghettoising of people of colour or women and my least favourite D word, which is diversity. 78 00:08:10,170 --> 00:08:14,580 I think we need to do that in order to judge. Good story. 79 00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:20,520 I love the dynamic that Edward Liquid had and the fact that they would write about 80 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,780 each other and that clearly they had a deep admiration for each other's work. 81 00:08:24,780 --> 00:08:31,590 And yet Atwood, who is a complete hero of mine as liquid, was Auntie Peggy, as I think of her, my head. 82 00:08:31,590 --> 00:08:38,540 She always insists she is speculative because like you've just pointed out, she doesn't want to be ghettoised in that way. 83 00:08:38,540 --> 00:08:47,770 And as much as I think it's silly, I kind of understand where she's coming from because speculative on genre fiction can be, 84 00:08:47,770 --> 00:08:52,070 I guess, cliquish in certain ways. And once you get in there, we'll really take you back. 85 00:08:52,070 --> 00:08:57,330 Well, they're not. It's strange to me. Why is that there? When did when did that happen to me? 86 00:08:57,330 --> 00:09:04,380 Everything is metaphore, right? I mean, the greatest joys, as far as I'm concerned, are speculative fiction at some level or the other. 87 00:09:04,380 --> 00:09:08,460 One of my favourite books of all time is Toni Morrison's Beloved. 88 00:09:08,460 --> 00:09:13,280 You tell me that's not a zombie story. You tell me that's not a ghost story. 89 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:21,260 I completely agree. Yeah, and there's a sort of failure in in, I suppose, the in the academy, too, 90 00:09:21,260 --> 00:09:32,990 to recognise the inherent literary ness that can be built into or be completely inherent to a zombie story or a ghost story or a story about djinn or, 91 00:09:32,990 --> 00:09:38,020 you know, monsters coming from the sea or aliens landing in Nigeria. 92 00:09:38,020 --> 00:09:42,560 Yeah, I think Margraf was trying to be practical in some way. 93 00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:47,540 But I just tried to work within the system, I suppose, which doesn't make the system OK. 94 00:09:47,540 --> 00:09:52,290 Absolutely. So thinking about another kind of Sean or ghettoised genre. 95 00:09:52,290 --> 00:09:56,480 When we talk about dystopian fiction and I suppose the huge popularity of that. 96 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:03,410 And you said that you're a huge fan of dystopian fiction. What do you I mean, how do you how do you think about dystopia? 97 00:10:03,410 --> 00:10:07,280 You know, what kind of tropes do you identify in it and what draws you to those? 98 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:14,750 So I have to say, my entire perspective has changed, given what 20-20 has been like for everyone all over the world. 99 00:10:14,750 --> 00:10:20,330 And I realised that as much as I thought reading lots and lots of dystopian fiction, 100 00:10:20,330 --> 00:10:25,910 starting from nineteen eighty four from what I was probably too young to have read it and onwards, 101 00:10:25,910 --> 00:10:31,580 everything else that I read to know, I thought I was prepared for the apocalypse. 102 00:10:31,580 --> 00:10:36,140 But what I didn't think about is that I'm not prepared for the actual apocalypse. 103 00:10:36,140 --> 00:10:44,330 I prepared for what comes after the apocalypse isn't always one big crash, boom, bang and everything falling apart. 104 00:10:44,330 --> 00:10:49,150 Sometimes it is a very slow, grinding halt of the machine. 105 00:10:49,150 --> 00:10:57,090 And the stock isn't as extreme as you think it is. It's what we now call the new normal. 106 00:10:57,090 --> 00:11:02,160 So it's been very strange for me to watch all of this happen because I do think that having 107 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:09,400 learnt everything I know about survival in a dystopia from fiction has to be reanalysed. 108 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,090 Yeah, that I love that idea of the slow, grinding halt of the machine. 109 00:11:13,090 --> 00:11:18,550 The perfect example of that is H.G. Wells is the machine stops, which I kept suggesting. 110 00:11:18,550 --> 00:11:23,080 Everyone I knew read when the quarantine set in the lockdown set in, 111 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:28,570 at least here in Malaysia, which might be a little earlier than other parts of the West. 112 00:11:28,570 --> 00:11:32,670 But I think that to me is the classic slow, grinding halt. Oh, I'm sorry. 113 00:11:32,670 --> 00:11:36,700 That's H.G. Wells. Why? I always think that's impulsive. Wednesday. 114 00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:43,990 No, no. There's also, I suppose, the the argument about what kind of author is a literary author versus what kind of author of the genre. 115 00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:49,630 Author because we don't think of the enforcer as a absolute as a speculative author. 116 00:11:49,630 --> 00:11:54,560 And then, of course, Emily Sinjin Mandel had the same thing happen to her when she wrote Station 11. 117 00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:59,260 She was like, oh, so if it's set in the future now, it's speculative. Yeah, well, you can't. 118 00:11:59,260 --> 00:12:03,070 This is my Freudian slip right there. Right. Why do I say H.G. Wells? 119 00:12:03,070 --> 00:12:10,510 I know it's not H.G. Wells, but my brain doesn't compute. It's not someone considered a science fiction writer who wrote The Machine Stops. 120 00:12:10,510 --> 00:12:14,310 So there's a lot for how my brain's been socialised about all this. Yeah. 121 00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:18,460 And it's a weird it's it's interesting to think about it as the kind of socialisation. Right. 122 00:12:18,460 --> 00:12:25,890 Because we have to kind of work against it. It's a little bit like inherent misogyny or inherent racism's that you kind of then have a 123 00:12:25,890 --> 00:12:30,760 little you have to fight back against because it's it's part of a larger power structure. 124 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:35,890 Absolutely. And I think I mentioned to you earlier in our e-mails that I grew up in Karachi. 125 00:12:35,890 --> 00:12:41,260 She was born and raised there. And my university years were spent in Montreal. 126 00:12:41,260 --> 00:12:45,500 University is real life. So let's leave those three years out of it. 127 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:50,410 But genuinely, when I entered this world of publishing, 128 00:12:50,410 --> 00:13:00,310 there is yet so much that I do not understand because I wasn't socialised to sort of, you know, geared that way. 129 00:13:00,310 --> 00:13:06,770 Jared and I read a very long column on Tawakol on a reread of Dragon Lungs, 130 00:13:06,770 --> 00:13:13,540 and I had no clue until I was an adult that those stories were based on tabletop games. 131 00:13:13,540 --> 00:13:23,390 I didn't know what Dungeons and Dragons was. I read those books because I found them in a bazaar in Karachi or, you know, moth eaten paperbacks. 132 00:13:23,390 --> 00:13:31,500 And that's all I thought they were. I thought they were original fiction. So there's a lot of things that I'm still trying to figure out, 133 00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:38,740 and sometimes I wonder if my the fact that my perspective is so skewed is a good thing or a bad thing. 134 00:13:38,740 --> 00:13:44,920 I have not yet decided. I mean, I think it's entirely necessary kind of value judgements and good or bad. 135 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,690 Entirely aside, I think it's really, really useful. 136 00:13:47,690 --> 00:13:53,860 And I think what you know, what Taus Head Patrick has said about the present being the golden age of science fiction, 137 00:13:53,860 --> 00:14:01,690 because now for the first time, perspectives that are not those that would already know about a tabletop game or, 138 00:14:01,690 --> 00:14:09,790 you know, just men writing, you know, space, fascism, you know, that that era is over and that we now have, you know, 139 00:14:09,790 --> 00:14:16,420 people who are writing stories that are said in the future will have a speculative element or fantastical in some way. 140 00:14:16,420 --> 00:14:22,450 But it's almost more about the characters and the worldbuilding is not put to the side. 141 00:14:22,450 --> 00:14:29,710 But no. The key thing, because it's what people do in different circumstances, I think, which is what we're interested in. 142 00:14:29,710 --> 00:14:37,090 Right? We are. And I, I can't agree with them fully because I don't think it's that I think it's starting. 143 00:14:37,090 --> 00:14:44,250 But I think there's still I genuinely believe diversity is a ghetto and I don't know when we'll get out of that. 144 00:14:44,250 --> 00:14:52,230 So I have huge problems with those judgements or bringing in the whole diversity angle. 145 00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:56,870 I don't understand why they're doing it. But it's still. 146 00:14:56,870 --> 00:15:07,870 Don't accept it quite so easily. For example, I had to actively choose a few years ago to say that I'm not going to talk about diversity. 147 00:15:07,870 --> 00:15:15,400 To say that you cannot just ask me my opinion of something as a Pakistani woman because I have 148 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:20,950 opinions and other things that have nothing to do with the fact that I'm a Pakistani woman. And so I think it's complicated. 149 00:15:20,950 --> 00:15:25,600 The whole diverse thinking thing is complicated. I'm really glad that publishing is opening up. 150 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:33,310 I do still think it's not open enough, of course, because what is enough read how to have a completely open, fair playground. 151 00:15:33,310 --> 00:15:44,290 You can't when everybody is coming with different baggage or different lack of exposure or education or whatever it is, I'm summarising greatly here. 152 00:15:44,290 --> 00:15:48,730 But yeah. So I think it's going to take a long time for us to get to that point. I think it's opening up. 153 00:15:48,730 --> 00:15:51,580 I do think, interestingly, if you bring this back to dystopia. 154 00:15:51,580 --> 00:16:00,640 There are perspectives that I read in their books that I read and I think, oh, this is Karachi in 1996, you know, 155 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:07,420 and then I'll read reviews where people talk about how there's this awful, terrible, dystopic vision in this book. 156 00:16:07,420 --> 00:16:12,910 And I just laugh because the onus so much of that is on the reader. 157 00:16:12,910 --> 00:16:18,230 And it's so much of a reader as baggage that they bring into every story. 158 00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:24,550 So someone might think that this is the golden age of science fiction. 159 00:16:24,550 --> 00:16:32,300 I'm not going to agree because I come from a completely different perspective, and I think this stuff just a lot more work to be done. 160 00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:33,710 I think part of this problem, right, 161 00:16:33,710 --> 00:16:44,990 is the idea that you can slap diversity on on a on a publisher's Web site and be done with it rather than actively engaging in those power, 162 00:16:44,990 --> 00:16:51,500 know those power structures that, you know, that limit or that in some way exalts also size, alternative perspective. 163 00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:54,980 So much so much of that exists. 164 00:16:54,980 --> 00:17:02,720 And, you know, show at some level, I suppose all of us are meant to be grateful that we have the chance of representing, 165 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:08,210 you know, unfolds at a wider world view in this quest for diversity. 166 00:17:08,210 --> 00:17:14,810 But at the same time, it's, you know, risk of being fetishising the exotic sites. 167 00:17:14,810 --> 00:17:18,680 And that's that whole what it would say. You call it. It's Orientalism. 168 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:26,690 Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, think if we're thinking about worldbuilding here and the idea of Orientalism, 169 00:17:26,690 --> 00:17:31,790 I mean, what do you think the dos and don'ts, if any, of worldbuilding with that? 170 00:17:31,790 --> 00:17:36,350 With our conversation in mind? I think this is too hard. 171 00:17:36,350 --> 00:17:42,360 This is so hard to describe, to understand, to even have a. 172 00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:48,050 One solid opinion on it. You know what I mean, because it's growing and changing so much. 173 00:17:48,050 --> 00:17:52,340 I would never tell somebody who was someone in the West, a white person in the West. 174 00:17:52,340 --> 00:17:56,150 I would never say to them, oh, you're not allowed to write a broad character. 175 00:17:56,150 --> 00:18:00,020 Of course not. You know what I mean? Human experience is a completely shed. 176 00:18:00,020 --> 00:18:03,490 Why would I not want you to have people of all sorts. 177 00:18:03,490 --> 00:18:08,980 In your book. Well, that in my mind or anyone else's mind, is that line crossed. 178 00:18:08,980 --> 00:18:19,300 And are you appropriating of leading to a certain audience? Where then are you crossing a line between representing a world that we live in? 179 00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:25,420 Or sticking diversity as a little sticker on your Goodreads reviews. 180 00:18:25,420 --> 00:18:29,800 You know what I mean? So when I like it, it's not I don't have an answer for you on this. 181 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,210 I don't think anyone does to some extent. I want to say it comes from the writers intent. 182 00:18:34,210 --> 00:18:40,030 Like, you know, how much is this is the authenticity of this story or not. 183 00:18:40,030 --> 00:18:44,080 But at the same time, it's. Sometimes the stories just not. 184 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,650 OK, good. So it doesn't work out either way. 185 00:18:47,650 --> 00:18:51,310 Yeah, and I think, as you said earlier, there's also the readers baggage, right? 186 00:18:51,310 --> 00:18:59,140 So when when we're reading particular texts in the West, you know, I'm speaking to you in Kuala Lumpur from Oxford. 187 00:18:59,140 --> 00:19:07,300 But, you know, texts that I read here are very different to those that I read in Johannesburg growing up because those contexts are so different. 188 00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:12,310 Have everyone have access to everything? I just don't know what kind of global platform that would be. 189 00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:16,930 I mean, let's first started getting people to read more. Or just let's see. 190 00:19:16,930 --> 00:19:20,740 Let's take it a step further back. Well, this is the thing people complain about, 191 00:19:20,740 --> 00:19:29,170 about people not reading enough or I suppose those of us who read too much complain about those who don't read enough. 192 00:19:29,170 --> 00:19:33,940 I mean, I don't know what reading enough entails or what that would be, what that would look like. 193 00:19:33,940 --> 00:19:41,560 But I think, yeah, going further back is a question of literacy, of what kind of knowledge is kind of count as literacy. 194 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,330 Right. And what kind of culture we develop. 195 00:19:45,330 --> 00:19:53,080 Kids who, again, we're told by privilege, overdog, by kids who have been taught to read or have access to things to read. 196 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:59,790 And even within that tiny, privileged lot, are we creating a culture of storytelling? 197 00:19:59,790 --> 00:20:03,880 Mm hmm. Yeah. Or is it all Instagram and ticktock? 198 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:11,380 Well, this links us, I think, quite closely to the title of the podcast, which is Narrative Futures and thinking about what kind of kind of I mean, 199 00:20:11,380 --> 00:20:17,380 the very short ness of the narratives on something like Tick Tock or Snapchat or Instagram, for example. 200 00:20:17,380 --> 00:20:23,950 And also a curated narrative, these being very, very different ways of expressing oneself or communicating. 201 00:20:23,950 --> 00:20:31,720 And I think, yeah, I think it's really interesting to to think about different ways that we construct narrative. 202 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,970 I mean, what are the things that you're seeing that you're most interested in or struck by? 203 00:20:35,970 --> 00:20:40,000 I've actually mentioned four things that I'm afraid of. 204 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:45,670 It is literally I have a 12 year old daughter, so she's out there and she's always been a reader, which is great. 205 00:20:45,670 --> 00:20:50,830 But she's at that point where electronics are more interesting. Her friends are getting smartphones. 206 00:20:50,830 --> 00:20:55,150 They have Instagram girls, which I keep. That's completely illegal because you're underage. 207 00:20:55,150 --> 00:21:03,190 But, you know, it's all happening. My fear is and I see this as an adult in myself with the constant use of my phone. 208 00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:10,610 For example, the concentration spans of everyone are decreasing so much. 209 00:21:10,610 --> 00:21:15,290 And I worry that will not result in better short stories. 210 00:21:15,290 --> 00:21:21,410 It will result in absolute trash. All tick tock passing off as I don't know. 211 00:21:21,410 --> 00:21:27,080 Creative expression or creative narratives. And I'm sure that there are people who are using things like the dog. 212 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,820 I'm not on to talk that old enough about it. Let me preface with that. 213 00:21:31,820 --> 00:21:37,130 But I'm sure there are people saying valid things on tick tock. 214 00:21:37,130 --> 00:21:44,240 But I think I fear that it would be a sort of a cancer where the good will get of burnt out by the bad. 215 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:52,710 Mm hmm. And then my fear is that that's what we end up with, is just a bunch of, like, little mini Tick-Tock dances. 216 00:21:52,710 --> 00:22:00,740 And is that really going to be our what our representation is off of the next generation's creative art or narrative? 217 00:22:00,740 --> 00:22:04,760 I really hope a big, really extreme. That right now seems to be like the worst case, 218 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:11,610 dystopic future that could be right now because everybody's locked in their homes that all they've got is the Internet and their phones. 219 00:22:11,610 --> 00:22:19,250 Yeah. I think it's some I think the idea of kind of being locked in with our phones with which are portals essentially. 220 00:22:19,250 --> 00:22:23,660 You know what? We're all we're all time travelling all the time. 221 00:22:23,660 --> 00:22:31,460 Time and space shopping. And it's a great connexion, but it's so easy to make into a completely superficial collection as well. 222 00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:35,270 Yeah. And then there's and then I suppose there's the presumption that we we think about 223 00:22:35,270 --> 00:22:40,690 particular kinds of travel time and space travel is as permissible and good, 224 00:22:40,690 --> 00:22:45,410 you know, and others is as less good. But then, well, it comes back to the author's intention. 225 00:22:45,410 --> 00:22:45,590 Right. 226 00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:55,490 Or the creator's intention in this case, as well as the as well as whoever is receiving it begins in the second to the narrow geology of Tick-Tock. 227 00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:58,880 The two of us have gone out. I mean, I'm not even onto jokes. 228 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,780 I'm really basing this on the little idle. 229 00:23:00,780 --> 00:23:06,800 And I'm hoping that someone would write in that state that I'm completely wrong and I would want to hear that I am. 230 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,670 But it's interesting what you say about Fawn's being portal's bucks on your article, Morsan. 231 00:23:10,670 --> 00:23:14,400 Hobbies. I had a book out a couple of years ago called Exit West. 232 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,360 Yes. In the second chapter of my thesis. Oh, yeah. 233 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:24,310 Well, you know, the book that's you know, that it's about portals or doorways that suddenly pop up all over the world. 234 00:23:24,310 --> 00:23:35,420 Yes. And these are not metaphorical is the physical door that you can walk through and you enter another space in the same time, but another space. 235 00:23:35,420 --> 00:23:40,690 And so you have essentially refugees going from one space to the other and moving all around. 236 00:23:40,690 --> 00:23:46,270 And then the portals get guarded because the ones that are entering first world countries, everybody wants to storm into. 237 00:23:46,270 --> 00:23:50,330 But, you know, there are people with guns on the other side making sure you can't come in. 238 00:23:50,330 --> 00:23:54,110 But the ones entering your poorer country is a wide open because no one wants to go there. 239 00:23:54,110 --> 00:24:00,050 I mean, it ends up being quite literally of literally being taken as a doorway because that's what it is. 240 00:24:00,050 --> 00:24:08,780 But to me, the first half of that book was essentially a portal fantasy, no different from Narnia or anything like that. 241 00:24:08,780 --> 00:24:13,330 And I know Mawson and I know that he's a science fiction geek as a child he had been. 242 00:24:13,330 --> 00:24:19,590 And that sort of stays in him. And I wish he pushed further with that in the second half of the book. 243 00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:23,760 But I really enjoy the fact that we look at. 244 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:30,120 Refugees or people wanting to move to a better life as people who are trying to live out their fantasies. 245 00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:36,290 Because what else is migration, if not a fantasy? 246 00:24:36,290 --> 00:24:41,990 So I found that particularly interesting because I think forms do that for us as well. 247 00:24:41,990 --> 00:24:47,900 They are little doorways. They are little portals. And through them we enter into the space. 248 00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:53,610 And very often it's wish fulfilment when we walk through that portal. 249 00:24:53,610 --> 00:25:04,930 Yeah, that's really, really beautiful. Very profound. I think I think thinking about most Mohammed's exit west and movement across space and time, 250 00:25:04,930 --> 00:25:11,910 and I think the fact that Nadia and Sade's sort of city of origin is never named is really important to that, 251 00:25:11,910 --> 00:25:19,850 because it's kind of this coming from nowhere to somewhere. But obviously, it's it's I mean, it's kind of characterised as Lahore or Islamabad. 252 00:25:19,850 --> 00:25:24,210 Yeah. In my mind, it was Lahore because Muslims from Lahore in Lahore. 253 00:25:24,210 --> 00:25:27,030 My father's from Lahore. I have family there. I know it well. 254 00:25:27,030 --> 00:25:32,250 It's interesting that you mention the name of the city because I recently wrote an essay on Exar, the West. 255 00:25:32,250 --> 00:25:37,530 Let's not go into for where? For it to be published in a book. But the person who was editing it wrote back and said, Well, you left. 256 00:25:37,530 --> 00:25:44,670 You said it's the name the city. And some reviewers have thought that this was somewhere in Iraq or somewhere somewhere else. 257 00:25:44,670 --> 00:25:47,120 And do you want to talk a little bit more about this? 258 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:53,410 And I wrote back to this editorial comment saying, who are these reviewers who don't know that Pakistan? 259 00:25:53,410 --> 00:25:57,510 Because you're amazing to me. And so that's what I mean about the readers on us. 260 00:25:57,510 --> 00:26:00,060 If you don't know anything about Pakistan, 261 00:26:00,060 --> 00:26:07,980 you will assume that it is a country like Iraq that you might have heard more about in the news, for example. 262 00:26:07,980 --> 00:26:12,540 Or you might think it's a country like Jordan which is flooded with refugees from Palestine. 263 00:26:12,540 --> 00:26:17,670 You know what I mean? Or you might think it's Lebanon, but you don't think it's possible because you don't know enough about like that, 264 00:26:17,670 --> 00:26:22,920 whereas somebody who knows anything about Mossad or Pakistan would immediately know that this is Lahore. 265 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:29,920 Yes. You never appeared to have left it nameless, of course, but it was yet again an example to be of the readers, 266 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:34,110 understand, and what the reader brings to what they're reading. Mm hmm. I mean, I think so. 267 00:26:34,110 --> 00:26:39,210 I think some of the stories thinking about what gin's are. So the stories in the jinn falls in love. 268 00:26:39,210 --> 00:26:44,910 You know, this idea that there are that there are some myths or. 269 00:26:44,910 --> 00:26:51,660 Yes, some kind of folkloric myths that pervade kind of all cultures and appear in different ways. 270 00:26:51,660 --> 00:26:59,970 But then, you know, it's it's the. Yes. The readers kind of context that that fills in the you know, that fills in the colour, I suppose. 271 00:26:59,970 --> 00:27:02,250 I think that you've spoken previously. 272 00:27:02,250 --> 00:27:11,700 I think to Atwood about about, you know, the role of folklore in in the narrative and how now how that plays out. 273 00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:17,190 Yeah, we have. I mean, what else would you speak to Mark Lunsford about that? 274 00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:25,440 Well, a lot of other things, I suppose. But the thing with Jeff was very simply was just logistically represented to me the other. 275 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:31,780 And that's not something that is lacking in any culture in the world. 276 00:27:31,780 --> 00:27:39,900 There is always. The idea of the other someone who is not you and yet you is something uncanny. 277 00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:47,480 It's hard to avoid regardless of whether it stems from Islamic folklore or not. 278 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,690 And I think that's what made the idea of, you know, 279 00:27:51,690 --> 00:27:58,590 the real reason they wanted to put together the reason I pitched a gerontology to Jonah in the first place was because I said, 280 00:27:58,590 --> 00:28:05,380 why on earth isn't there one? Because the story is I want to read, because there was so many that we grew up with. 281 00:28:05,380 --> 00:28:10,660 It made sense to just have everyone from all over the world because it wasn't something that anybody. 282 00:28:10,660 --> 00:28:15,280 I think even right as we all just had to think very hard about it. 283 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:20,320 Is that kind of a universal idea? Yeah, absolutely. 284 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:26,150 That is I think that's really interesting that that that sense of it being something universal. 285 00:28:26,150 --> 00:28:31,000 And when we think about, you know, think about narrative and we think about knowledge in different cultures, 286 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,070 kind of use narrative in different ways and different places. And, you know, I'm South African. 287 00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:42,460 So there's a lot of discussion around oral narrative and oral traditions and literatures. 288 00:28:42,460 --> 00:28:48,580 And yet the chin manifests everywhere. I can think of South Africa's version of that, too. 289 00:28:48,580 --> 00:28:52,090 God knows how we accidentally managed to ask people from all over the world. 290 00:28:52,090 --> 00:28:58,000 Like, that's not possible. Know you think it was hard or something shocking. 291 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,390 Yeah. Good achievements. But it's. Yeah, exactly. But. 292 00:29:01,390 --> 00:29:05,340 But but it's not. Yeah. I mean, did you have the same experience with the outcast. 293 00:29:05,340 --> 00:29:15,850 I was absolutely like. I mean, you don't. Like I said, I make these long lists and I always joke with them saying short of people being dead. 294 00:29:15,850 --> 00:29:20,910 We will just put them on our list. Because you know what? What's the worst that can happen? Someone will say no big deal. 295 00:29:20,910 --> 00:29:27,430 We'll just you know, we'll keep talking. We works, as you can imagine, on John Malone and keep asking people. 296 00:29:27,430 --> 00:29:33,610 But we ask writers, we want to read and we think we'd just write really interesting stories. 297 00:29:33,610 --> 00:29:40,900 So even without cars, we put together that. And again, shocking that you end up with a list that other people would call diverse. 298 00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:45,780 I won't use that word. And, you know, has as many women in it are women writers. 299 00:29:45,780 --> 00:29:51,220 And so I always think, what if I can manage this without much of an effort? 300 00:29:51,220 --> 00:29:54,930 Everybody else who says that they have to really try to put that together. 301 00:29:54,930 --> 00:30:00,700 That throws me you know, it means there's something inherently wrong in how you're doing this or more importantly, 302 00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:09,140 something inherently wrong with how you're reading. Because I think if you're reading only a certain bracket or, you know, kind of writer. 303 00:30:09,140 --> 00:30:14,720 Yeah, demographic. There's a will demographic. That's the word. And then you was an editor of. 304 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,230 Are going to find it difficult to step outside the demographic and not see people don't make an effort. 305 00:30:19,230 --> 00:30:26,970 Of course people do. There are plenty of anthologies out there that have wide ranging demographic of writers and for whom I have great respect. 306 00:30:26,970 --> 00:30:36,550 But I do not believe that that is a very difficult thing to do. 307 00:30:36,550 --> 00:30:42,220 Narrative features. For those writers and speculators listening, 308 00:30:42,220 --> 00:30:50,410 stay with us now for writing prompts and exercises designed to encourage putting pen to paper or hands to keyboard, 309 00:30:50,410 --> 00:31:01,770 as well as reflection on the writing process. This section is designed and presented by Lee. 310 00:31:01,770 --> 00:31:05,760 Mahvish Meuron says that from an editor's point of view, brevity is key. 311 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,690 I'm going to keep this brief. Take what you're working on right now and summarise it first. 312 00:31:10,690 --> 00:31:17,490 The story idea in a 200 word paragraph. Second, a one line elevator pitch. 313 00:31:17,490 --> 00:31:23,460 If you're not working on anything now, choose something you've written recently. 314 00:31:23,460 --> 00:31:31,530 After that planned access to the last book you read or film you watched, does this access tell you anything about your story? 315 00:31:31,530 --> 00:31:38,310 Does it help clarify your intentions in any way, comparing your work in progress with the produced film or book? 316 00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:52,590 Is it easier to find the synopsis or pitch in one or the other? Do you prefer books or films whose central point is easily identifiable? 317 00:31:52,590 --> 00:31:59,340 Murad tells us that the djinn represents the figure of the other and connects it with an uncanny mirroring, 318 00:31:59,340 --> 00:32:03,960 the gene is clearly a powerful psycho mythological Murchie throughout the world. 319 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:14,100 Tokoloshe is an leprechaun's and Jekyll's and Trickster's and started in every culture, boogie under every bed and in every jar in the corner. 320 00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:18,630 For your next exercise. Describe your own personal gym. 321 00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:25,530 What specific little monsters scared you as a child? Why do you think it was scaring you to keep you in line? 322 00:32:25,530 --> 00:32:30,990 To warn of dangers, to offer a sense of the supernatural or the other? 323 00:32:30,990 --> 00:32:37,320 To what purpose? Describe what they look like and how they communicate and behave. 324 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:47,160 What do they do? Are they malicious? It's a tricky psychological that is internal or social and external. 325 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:58,140 Can you imagine a story playing out with this character? If you can plot it up briefly. 326 00:32:58,140 --> 00:33:02,280 Thanks to Mahvish for joining us on this episode of Narrative Futures. 327 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:09,510 Next week, we'll be hosting Mahvish as co-editor and collaborator Jared Suran to discuss indie publishing, 328 00:33:09,510 --> 00:33:23,304 the coaches awards and literary institutions and the genres that defy them.