1
00:00:10,300 --> 00:00:17,390
How did the stories we tell shape how we think about the future, the present and the past?

2
00:00:17,390 --> 00:00:27,380
What is speculation for? And how might we construct better narratives for a better future?

3
00:00:27,380 --> 00:00:31,180
Narrative Futures is a podcast coming to you from Futures Thinking.

4
00:00:31,180 --> 00:00:41,270
A research network housed in the Oxford Centre for Research in the Humanities.

5
00:00:41,270 --> 00:00:48,490
My name is Chelsea, hey, I'm a doctoral researcher in the faculty of English here at the University of Oxford.

6
00:00:48,490 --> 00:00:54,250
We're extremely honoured to host today. Thompson on this, the final episode of Narrative Futures and Hope.

7
00:00:54,250 --> 00:00:58,690
You enjoy our discussion of, amongst other things, metaphors of alien invasion,

8
00:00:58,690 --> 00:01:11,390
the role of narrative in psychoanalysis and the Ngoma awards for African speculative fiction.

9
00:01:11,390 --> 00:01:14,840
This podcast is interactive, following the interview,

10
00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:22,370
you'll be treated to to writing prompts designed by novelist and creative writing tutor extraordinaire Louis Greenberg.

11
00:01:22,370 --> 00:01:31,970
We invite you to share your response to these with us via email at Futures Thinking at torch dot o x, dot ac dot UK.

12
00:01:31,970 --> 00:01:38,870
We'll share these on the blog where you'll also be able to find the full transcript of each episode with links to the books,

13
00:01:38,870 --> 00:01:45,740
writers and ideas that we discuss. As the world so radically changes,

14
00:01:45,740 --> 00:01:57,610
we hope these conversations and ideas give you insight and inspiration to think about how else we might live and create collectively going forward.

15
00:01:57,610 --> 00:02:01,570
Tara Thompson is the author of the award winning Wormwood trilogy.

16
00:02:01,570 --> 00:02:05,650
He won the AFC Clark Award for the first novel in that trilogy, Rosewater,

17
00:02:05,650 --> 00:02:11,740
and has also won a kitschy Golden Tentacle Award and the inaugural Nomo Lubow Prise for best novel.

18
00:02:11,740 --> 00:02:19,300
He writes short fiction and novellas, one of which the murders of Molly s born has been optioned for screen adaptation in 2018.

19
00:02:19,300 --> 00:02:25,720
He wrote the important essay, Please Stop Talking about the rise of African science fiction for Literary Hub.

20
00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:38,740
Today is a psychiatrist and has a background in social anthropology and a voracious appetite for reading.

21
00:02:38,740 --> 00:02:44,350
What I do is I decide what I'm going to spend my time doing on a particular day, at a particular time.

22
00:02:44,350 --> 00:02:45,650
And.

23
00:02:45,650 --> 00:02:52,250
Anything else that comes up, I just don't do because everything you agree to do, when you agree to do something, you're missing out on something else.

24
00:02:52,250 --> 00:02:58,460
So if I decided that I'm going to write a thousand words today, I'm going to write a thousand words in the next hour.

25
00:02:58,460 --> 00:03:05,860
If anything comes up for that hour, I have to say no. It's the opportunity cost of writing those thousand words.

26
00:03:05,860 --> 00:03:10,900
Most of us, I suppose, are not were not very deliberate about our time.

27
00:03:10,900 --> 00:03:18,670
So we kind of let things drift and we, you know, you'd be surprised at how much time we waste allowing things to drift in that way.

28
00:03:18,670 --> 00:03:22,510
So, yeah, that's it's time. It's time management, nothing else. I am.

29
00:03:22,510 --> 00:03:27,520
I take baby steps, but consistent baby steps.

30
00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,000
So why take a vote?

31
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:38,970
So, for example, I'm currently writing a screenplay which is probably going to go into one hundred and twenty hundred and thirty pages.

32
00:03:38,970 --> 00:03:45,910
And I'm just doing it three pages a day and I'm consistently doing it three pages a day and at some point it will finish.

33
00:03:45,910 --> 00:03:53,590
But each day seems like a very little amount. It is not stressful for me to do that, but it will get done, you know, and that's that's what I do.

34
00:03:53,590 --> 00:04:01,180
I take lots of little steps every day. That's really Berlins advice for any of the writers who will be listening to this.

35
00:04:01,180 --> 00:04:07,690
And I was wondering, as a psychiatrist by day, what role do you think narrative plays in how we think about the future?

36
00:04:07,690 --> 00:04:11,390
I mean, your sense of kind of incremental working towards, you know,

37
00:04:11,390 --> 00:04:16,260
it doesn't feel like you've taken baby steps given the huge output you've had in the last five years.

38
00:04:16,260 --> 00:04:21,730
But, yeah, what do you think about in in terms of narrative and kind of deciding and determining a future

39
00:04:21,730 --> 00:04:27,070
both on the micro level and the individual level and I suppose a slightly larger macro level?

40
00:04:27,070 --> 00:04:36,730
Well, narrative is everything. I mean, I subscribe to the idea that we tell stories for the purpose of continuing a particular kind of knowledge,

41
00:04:36,730 --> 00:04:42,340
telling ourselves a particular kind of knowledge. I mean, it's diverting, you know, so there's that.

42
00:04:42,340 --> 00:04:52,030
But basically, the very first thing we do about ourselves is we we have our own personal histories and we tell our own stories.

43
00:04:52,030 --> 00:04:56,340
But even when we're telling our own stories, we're already subtly editing it.

44
00:04:56,340 --> 00:05:04,630
And if some if you have an account of something, once you begin to edit it, it means you are foregrounding some things and backgrounding other things.

45
00:05:04,630 --> 00:05:13,450
And that's really what writing is. That's what storytelling is. You remove stuff that you think is extraneous to the message you want to be delivered.

46
00:05:13,450 --> 00:05:18,100
The stories that we tell ourselves, and this speaks to psychiatry as well,

47
00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:24,910
the stories that we tell ourselves are the most important, you know, the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves.

48
00:05:24,910 --> 00:05:32,380
So as individuals, we have our own personal myths. And part of my job.

49
00:05:32,380 --> 00:05:40,240
Is to see people you could look at mental illness as as as as personal myths gone awry.

50
00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:46,780
So in other words, a person who is depressed thinks I am worthless. Nothing I do will ever mean anything.

51
00:05:46,780 --> 00:05:51,150
There is no point being alive. I am a waste of space.

52
00:05:51,150 --> 00:05:57,460
You know, these are distortions of someone's personal story because those things aren't really true of anybody.

53
00:05:57,460 --> 00:06:03,040
But they begin to believe those things and they act accordingly. Sometimes they stop eating, sometimes.

54
00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,970
Sometimes they eat too much. Sometimes they harm themselves.

55
00:06:06,970 --> 00:06:13,270
You know, sometimes they you know, they go there to go other destructive behaviour.

56
00:06:13,270 --> 00:06:19,960
But at the root of everything is a personal story that has become distorted, a personal history that has become distorted.

57
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,940
It's not to say that bad things have happened to the person,

58
00:06:23,940 --> 00:06:29,470
and it's not to say that there's no possible neurochemical problem that is causing those thoughts.

59
00:06:29,470 --> 00:06:35,380
But primarily the way we find out about it is because of a distortion of a person's story.

60
00:06:35,380 --> 00:06:40,270
So the ability to narrow it is extremely important to all of us.

61
00:06:40,270 --> 00:06:46,210
It is it is one of the reasons why, you know, children are kind of natural storytellers.

62
00:06:46,210 --> 00:06:50,290
They'll just tell you a story no matter what. They'll tell you what happened at school. They'll do all of that.

63
00:06:50,290 --> 00:06:51,940
And it might be unsophisticated,

64
00:06:51,940 --> 00:06:59,110
but they know instinctively that storytelling is how human beings pass knowledge from one generation to the next and from one person to the next.

65
00:06:59,110 --> 00:07:06,640
Our ability to communicate is is is primary is of the utmost importance and as a group.

66
00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:11,410
Any grouping of human beings. They basically follow the same thing that the individual follows.

67
00:07:11,410 --> 00:07:19,460
They have a group myth. We are X. In other words, starting Lukie, we say, for example, we are doctors.

68
00:07:19,460 --> 00:07:26,410
So we are regulated by the General Medical Council. We belong to a royal college, whatever our speciality is.

69
00:07:26,410 --> 00:07:32,410
And the Royal College kind of determines a bit our group identity or I belong to a gang.

70
00:07:32,410 --> 00:07:39,550
This is our name. These are our gang signs. This is our sign that we will spray onto the wall.

71
00:07:39,550 --> 00:07:43,720
And this is how we identify ourselves. We operate on Tottenham Court Road.

72
00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:48,190
We live there. And therefore, that's our identity.

73
00:07:48,190 --> 00:07:57,070
We tell ourselves these stories to bring about cohesion and bring about a kind of unified personhood.

74
00:07:57,070 --> 00:08:00,820
And that's what we do as a group. And we do the same thing as a country. We say this is our history.

75
00:08:00,820 --> 00:08:04,510
This is what defines us as a country, as a country. And so on.

76
00:08:04,510 --> 00:08:13,840
And I believe if we had if we had real extraterrestrials, we would have an earth identity, which we would we we would try to promote to them.

77
00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,000
But it's all stories. It's all narratives.

78
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:23,290
And as the people with the best story or rather let me I was I was about to say the people were the best story tend to predominate,

79
00:08:23,290 --> 00:08:28,420
but actually the people who predominately tend to have the best story because they can force their story and everybody.

80
00:08:28,420 --> 00:08:34,030
Yeah, well, it it's the story of the victor, isn't it? The victor writes the the narrative of the conquest.

81
00:08:34,030 --> 00:08:38,140
I'm really interested in all these ideas about personal myth, kind of national myth.

82
00:08:38,140 --> 00:08:45,490
I think the UK is currently suffering from a skewed view of a national myth.

83
00:08:45,490 --> 00:08:54,040
And I was thinking a little bit about some of the myths around Rosewater and how and how that story came to you and I why if you could speak

84
00:08:54,040 --> 00:09:03,940
a little bit about that and kind of your your road to to investigating what what personal myth is and how that relates to a national myth,

85
00:09:03,940 --> 00:09:09,490
because Caros journey is very much kind of implicated in both of those.

86
00:09:09,490 --> 00:09:13,210
Yes. I mean, the origin of all of it.

87
00:09:13,210 --> 00:09:20,380
I think the earliest origin of of the Rosewell two stories on the books and everything has to be declassified, CIA documents.

88
00:09:20,380 --> 00:09:25,120
I spent a lot of time reading them because it's stranger than fiction.

89
00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:31,870
It's fascinating. I just can't I can't get enough of the stupidity of 20th century in particular.

90
00:09:31,870 --> 00:09:40,900
I just can't get enough of the things that they did. What led me there in the first place was, you know, was the murder of Patrice Lumumba.

91
00:09:40,900 --> 00:09:46,480
You know, and I kind of got into a rabbit hole and I really started investigating things to do with that particular murder.

92
00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,860
And then I just kind of went off on tangents because that's the kind of person I am.

93
00:09:50,860 --> 00:09:56,610
And I got to M.K. Ultra, which was a mind control experiments.

94
00:09:56,610 --> 00:10:02,890
M.K. Delta, which is the same thing, was done on foreign soil when it got to mind control.

95
00:10:02,890 --> 00:10:10,760
I started to wonder about that and I looked at the tests they did. They actually tested people like Uri Geller and anybody claiming to be a psychic.

96
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:16,510
They actually put them in experimental conditions and tested them to see if this actually existed.

97
00:10:16,510 --> 00:10:20,590
I have to say their methodology wasn't great, but it was being done.

98
00:10:20,590 --> 00:10:25,100
So I wanted to tell a story about this, but I didn't I didn't know what it was.

99
00:10:25,100 --> 00:10:28,680
It was something to do with mind control or telepathy, something like that.

100
00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:31,890
And I started to ask myself how it would happen or how it would work.

101
00:10:31,890 --> 00:10:38,110
And I realised, okay, the idea that there'll be nothing in between a subject and a recipient and vice versa is ridiculous,

102
00:10:38,110 --> 00:10:45,370
that there has to be something in between them. And I kind of played around with entanglements and in the sense quantum entanglement.

103
00:10:45,370 --> 00:10:53,110
But the idea is to experimental. And then I thought, okay, well, what if there were something connecting them?

104
00:10:53,110 --> 00:10:58,020
And the idea of somebody connected them came from a news report I read in 2011 about

105
00:10:58,020 --> 00:11:01,840
why there were these twins that were conjoin twins who were connected by the brain.

106
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,170
And they could think each other's thoughts or they could hear each other's thoughts.

107
00:11:05,170 --> 00:11:10,420
So I figured, OK, in between, if there were some if there were some connexion between the brains of people,

108
00:11:10,420 --> 00:11:15,700
then they could hear each other's thoughts, even if that connexion was just one neurone thick or invisible.

109
00:11:15,700 --> 00:11:18,490
And since I really like, how would that happen?

110
00:11:18,490 --> 00:11:26,350
And I realised that for people to be connected, just the very basic Day-To-Day stuff is going to rip the Connexions apart.

111
00:11:26,350 --> 00:11:31,180
So I needed something that would be able to be torn apart and reform itself.

112
00:11:31,180 --> 00:11:38,650
And I thought, thought and thought. And I thought about fungus, you know, looking at a fungus, how the hyphy work, the fruiting body, then the lights.

113
00:11:38,650 --> 00:11:39,670
And I figured, OK,

114
00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:46,450
so if we had a microscopic fungus all around everywhere in the world that you'd be connected to and it would disconnect occasionally,

115
00:11:46,450 --> 00:11:51,100
but then it would just branch out and connect again. That could work now for a reason that I'm not going to go into.

116
00:11:51,100 --> 00:11:58,160
I was also at the time I was interested in computer networking.

117
00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:06,180
I might do some sometime in the distant past. Actually, I've done some some internetworking training and all of that.

118
00:12:06,180 --> 00:12:07,830
You know, I knew I knew how that worked,

119
00:12:07,830 --> 00:12:17,160
and I used I used that to Soki find they would send messages to each other like small packets to say this connexion is open and all of that.

120
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:22,500
But this was just ideas. I didn't have characters and I didn't have a setting yet.

121
00:12:22,500 --> 00:12:29,920
So I kind of just left the idea to Peter to percolate a little bit more.

122
00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:38,920
What what then activated, it was when I remembered a cop, a convicted criminal I met once who was a thief,

123
00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:44,670
and he told me stories, he told me stories about his life, how he became a thief.

124
00:12:44,670 --> 00:12:51,320
He went to prison and all of that. And I realised that he would actually make a good character for this.

125
00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,400
You know, some modified version of him would make a good character for this,

126
00:12:54,400 --> 00:13:01,230
because once I thought of him in the kind of world where he would need to steal.

127
00:13:01,230 --> 00:13:06,280
And I realised that I keep being telepathic would be a good skill for a person who was a thief.

128
00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,840
Then the story started building from there. That's really where it came from. It's really beautiful.

129
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:23,550
I love the characterisation in the Wormwood trilogy because the old sci fi is so built around the world building and is so invested in,

130
00:13:23,550 --> 00:13:30,840
you know, the explaining, the science, what you do so, so beautifully, but without losing the without losing the characters.

131
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:39,730
No cars, the thief, the sort of mahrous, irreverent, irresponsible, but ironically, fundamentally human protagonist.

132
00:13:39,730 --> 00:13:44,890
And you've said elsewhere that you're more interested in characters than than worldbuilding.

133
00:13:44,890 --> 00:13:52,240
Do you think that there's an emerging shift towards thinking about the human element

134
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:59,440
of the sort of the human to human experience of narrative features and sci fi worlds,

135
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:04,720
a shift away perhaps from the 1950s, 1960s style speculative fiction?

136
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:11,410
Well, there had better be, I think, in some way it's held science fiction back our.

137
00:14:11,410 --> 00:14:17,470
Our fascination with the nuts and bolts of the world of technology in this space for all kinds of science fiction,

138
00:14:17,470 --> 00:14:21,970
I would say there are people who really love that technical astrophysics,

139
00:14:21,970 --> 00:14:27,590
that mathematical you know, there are people who really love that detail and stuff.

140
00:14:27,590 --> 00:14:32,400
That's not me. I think stories are about characters.

141
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:40,330
And I think science fiction is the science. Fictional world is a backdrop for kids interacting with each other.

142
00:14:40,330 --> 00:14:51,910
I don't identify very well with with science fiction or even fantasy that spends too much time on the minutiae of what's going on in this world.

143
00:14:51,910 --> 00:15:00,220
My perspective is this. If you were writing a non science fiction story, for example, if you're writing a story about, I don't know,

144
00:15:00,220 --> 00:15:06,850
suburbia or even, you know, are people in an urban environment, you will not be explaining how cars work.

145
00:15:06,850 --> 00:15:11,290
You wouldn't be talking about how electricity works because the characters don't care.

146
00:15:11,290 --> 00:15:14,920
They just cannot when they get into the car in the morning, when they stop the car. It works.

147
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:20,620
And when they script, when they turn the light switch, it comes on. Nobody cares how it works until it doesn't work.

148
00:15:20,620 --> 00:15:22,180
And when it doesn't work, you get an expert.

149
00:15:22,180 --> 00:15:31,750
So I can't imagine someone telling a story about the 21st century like right now and start to explain air travel.

150
00:15:31,750 --> 00:15:35,470
This is how air travel works. Who cares? I don't care.

151
00:15:35,470 --> 00:15:44,210
I just want to know who's flying in the plane. You know, tell me about the people flying in the plane and their anxieties about flying and their,

152
00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:51,710
you know, their air sickness, their anxieties about legally, the fact that the person next to them smells or, you know,

153
00:15:51,710 --> 00:15:57,830
the fact that they can't relax because someone is played songs f if, you know, earphones are too loud.

154
00:15:57,830 --> 00:16:04,640
Things like that. Those are the things I want to know. You know, I don't want to know about left.

155
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,170
I don't want to know about drag unless unless that particular story is about that.

156
00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:12,710
Unless there's about to be a crash or something.

157
00:16:12,710 --> 00:16:16,730
But, you know, I don't like those kind of obsessions. I don't enjoy those kind of obsessions.

158
00:16:16,730 --> 00:16:22,970
I enjoy people. I want to know about flawed people in interesting circumstances.

159
00:16:22,970 --> 00:16:30,620
I love that the idea that the it's the circumstances that are interesting, but it's the characters responses to them that are that on the story.

160
00:16:30,620 --> 00:16:39,260
And I think the kinds of speculative fiction we're seeing nowadays is life sort of since the 1980s is richer

161
00:16:39,260 --> 00:16:46,940
and perhaps more popular for being engaged in the human element or more engaged in the human element.

162
00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:56,600
I was thinking a little bit about your work having been kind of tied or having been described as having parallels to William Gibson's Neuromancer,

163
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:02,510
Ted Chiang's arrival and your own nods to Michael Crichton's The Andromeda Strain

164
00:17:02,510 --> 00:17:09,650
and the title Rosewater and Rosewell in New Mexico being like worlds apart.

165
00:17:09,650 --> 00:17:15,830
And I was thinking in relation to that, Owen does put downs of the British character Bellamy in the first book.

166
00:17:15,830 --> 00:17:20,870
And the analogies between alien invasion and colonialism, if you would speak a little bit more about that.

167
00:17:20,870 --> 00:17:25,730
Well, innovation is colonialism. I mean, there is no to me, there is no better metaphor.

168
00:17:25,730 --> 00:17:32,410
That is what that metaphor is about. To me, the metaphor of innovation is people with.

169
00:17:32,410 --> 00:17:40,380
Evil intent and better technology arriving in your space and trying to take over or taking over.

170
00:17:40,380 --> 00:17:50,110
That's what it is. There is no there there is no better experience of alien invasions than that of former colonies.

171
00:17:50,110 --> 00:17:53,550
There is no there is no better description of abduction,

172
00:17:53,550 --> 00:18:01,900
of alien abduction than that of former slaves who are who find themselves taken away and taken into nations

173
00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:09,700
where their language is despised and their very physical beings are used as markers to despise them.

174
00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:13,850
You know where that culture is, that their culture is erased as fast as possible.

175
00:18:13,850 --> 00:18:20,890
They're trying to make it there. They are made to assimilate one way or the other.

176
00:18:20,890 --> 00:18:22,720
I'm.

177
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:32,110
I am very it's very difficult for me to write about aliens and for things like colonialism or slavery not to come out, because that is what it is.

178
00:18:32,110 --> 00:18:39,160
That is what it is a metaphor for. Otherwise, we're just writing exciting space battles under which.

179
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,780
Generally leaves me cold anyway. I'm not I'm not a big fan of militaristic science fiction.

180
00:18:43,780 --> 00:18:53,200
I will read it. And I you know, it's not that I can't watch a spectacle and enjoy the spectacle, but it doesn't because.

181
00:18:53,200 --> 00:19:00,750
Conquest has been a tool used against my people for centuries because it because of what it has led to all of the time,

182
00:19:00,750 --> 00:19:04,690
I find it very difficult to enjoy a militaristic science fiction. Yeah.

183
00:19:04,690 --> 00:19:12,370
The Robert Heinlein Fusion of Space Fascism.

184
00:19:12,370 --> 00:19:19,030
So when you're talking about what you do enjoy and thinking about texts that engage with

185
00:19:19,030 --> 00:19:23,020
with the real history of the world when we're in an era where we're kind of negotiating,

186
00:19:23,020 --> 00:19:25,300
well, is colonialism actually over?

187
00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:34,300
I'm thinking about with the proliferation of genres like indigenous future isms, which is particularly booming in North America and in Australia.

188
00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:40,850
What kind of texts are you seeing and what authors are you following and particular excited to read?

189
00:19:40,850 --> 00:19:46,600
Okay, so I think as you talk a little bit about the idea of post colonialism first.

190
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:58,570
So one of the things I don't like, though, or that I don't enjoy is the idea of indigenous art being seen as post-colonial ism,

191
00:19:58,570 --> 00:20:03,430
as if it has to be seen in relation to something someone else has done.

192
00:20:03,430 --> 00:20:12,190
I would prefer to see it as something that is its own thing and not not a reaction to something else.

193
00:20:12,190 --> 00:20:17,300
It has to be it has to exist, as you know, as the thing itself,

194
00:20:17,300 --> 00:20:23,050
what Microsoft or elusively it has to be its own thing, not something that is in response to this.

195
00:20:23,050 --> 00:20:26,540
As long as you remain in response to this, you might as well still be a colony.

196
00:20:26,540 --> 00:20:31,240
You have to still be a slave if you're still responding to the things that have happened.

197
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:36,790
So there is a place for the response and there's a place for, okay, look, now we're just telling our stories.

198
00:20:36,790 --> 00:20:42,580
We don't actually care about you guys, you know. Yes, this happened. Boodhoo But this is what we're doing now.

199
00:20:42,580 --> 00:20:49,990
That's the role of the art, right? Yes, exactly. Yeah. And it still goes back to the thing I said about defining ourselves with stories.

200
00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:54,940
What stories to tell Taliban ourselves. It's important to want to move beyond it.

201
00:20:54,940 --> 00:21:00,940
In other words, they get back to a history that precedes colonialism.

202
00:21:00,940 --> 00:21:06,580
A lot of which was removed or are erased. To me, it's more important to get back to that.

203
00:21:06,580 --> 00:21:11,130
And it's more policy to start thinking actually about the future, like.

204
00:21:11,130 --> 00:21:18,000
Where are we going, what are we now, how do we want to define ourselves? Those kind of thoughts are the thoughts that I am that I wish we had.

205
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:25,150
You know, unfortunately, a lot of what we're writing is still reactionary and mimetic.

206
00:21:25,150 --> 00:21:32,060
You know, some of it is more like, okay, well, this is similar to what science fiction has already done,

207
00:21:32,060 --> 00:21:39,350
largely because this is how we think science fiction needs to be done. And all writers respond to what they've read, right, without it.

208
00:21:39,350 --> 00:21:41,960
That is correct. You have to you will respond to what you've read.

209
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:47,300
And when you're in a particular stage, there will be that anxiety of influence because you think,

210
00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:53,190
OK, this is coming out just like blah is just coming up, just like Stephen King's work was coming out just like this, you know,

211
00:21:53,190 --> 00:21:59,110
and what you're supposed to do is right through that, you just keep writing until your own particular.

212
00:21:59,110 --> 00:22:04,600
Individuality emerges, you know, and then the stories that you care about then begin to come out.

213
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:10,100
I mean, one of the books I enjoyed the most I read recently was The Old Drift by Unwealthy Subpanel.

214
00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:15,070
It's extremely well written. It's like a generational epic.

215
00:22:15,070 --> 00:22:19,840
Yeah. So good for a debut. And I mean, so good as a novel, yet it's genius.

216
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,930
The Zambian space programme. Yes. Yeah. It's fantastic.

217
00:22:23,930 --> 00:22:31,050
You know that that is the kind of novel I enjoy reading. Well, you won't be surprised to hear I'm a fan of Ursula Lagoon.

218
00:22:31,050 --> 00:22:35,170
Read a front of that kind of writing that explores ideas.

219
00:22:35,170 --> 00:22:42,220
You know, to the extent that, you know, that has beautiful language at the same time, you know, explores the depth of emotion.

220
00:22:42,220 --> 00:22:48,040
It's just, you know, that's that's the kind of book I enjoy. I believe we still have a way to go.

221
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:57,590
But part of it is, is what's the real the real aspect of colonialism that I tried to address in Rosewater is the is a mental colonialism.

222
00:22:57,590 --> 00:23:00,240
Neo colonialism where.

223
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:09,390
We see success in the Western world and we try to mimic it in the way we tell our stories and the way we the way we formulate our art.

224
00:23:09,390 --> 00:23:18,510
We have inferiority feelings that make us think, OK, we have to ape what we see in order to be successful.

225
00:23:18,510 --> 00:23:24,620
That is true to an extent. You know, what you're producing can't be so esoteric and nobody can understand it.

226
00:23:24,620 --> 00:23:28,010
So it has to have some elements of some, I don't know,

227
00:23:28,010 --> 00:23:34,610
some anchors that an audience can can pay attention to while they're consuming the new or unique stuff.

228
00:23:34,610 --> 00:23:36,500
You're trying to say I mean,

229
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:46,050
I think family's character is really interesting for that in the subsequent novels because she's she's just not having any of it.

230
00:23:46,050 --> 00:23:49,670
It's important making sure that we are not going to do this the American way.

231
00:23:49,670 --> 00:23:55,910
Absolutely not. Well, exactly. I mean, vetting is great, are great.

232
00:23:55,910 --> 00:24:03,270
She's actually basically someone like someone I know as well. You know, the way she navigates the world she's in, which is largely sexist.

233
00:24:03,270 --> 00:24:09,920
You know, she's got the president to sexist to her even subordinate. You know, Kyra, her subordinates is certainly sexist.

234
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:18,700
So she's navigating a a sexist world where women's power is not.

235
00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:23,630
You know, it is not a settled thing. You know, it's precarious.

236
00:24:23,630 --> 00:24:29,640
So she may have the position and she may have.

237
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,410
Let's say she has wealth, for example, because she does,

238
00:24:32,410 --> 00:24:40,990
but she still is in a very precarious position where she has to manage the emotions of the powerful men around her.

239
00:24:40,990 --> 00:24:49,850
You know, I deliberately I deliberately wanted to. Wanted to show that it's still, you know, the world in which they exist is still a world in which.

240
00:24:49,850 --> 00:24:55,400
Power is largely held by men and has to be negotiated in a sense.

241
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,190
Things like her having to say, okay, look, how are we going to do this?

242
00:24:58,190 --> 00:25:05,450
You know, a certain degree of ruthlessness is required and a certain degree of callousness because of the end goal.

243
00:25:05,450 --> 00:25:13,030
And in the entire book, she's the only one who saw the end goal from the start and knew what she had to do.

244
00:25:13,030 --> 00:25:19,640
Yeah, she's she's brilliant in that kind of. There is an obvious, overriding narrative that she sees that.

245
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:26,970
But Carol, I can't imagine what a what a compliment to the person that you've based her on.

246
00:25:26,970 --> 00:25:34,870
I want to talk a little bit now about the NOMO awards and your involvement with them following your win of the inaugural Nobel Prise for best novel.

247
00:25:34,870 --> 00:25:41,260
And I was wondering what you think is the significance of the NOMO Awards and the African Speculative Fiction Society specifically?

248
00:25:41,260 --> 00:25:44,830
It's I mean, obviously, it's a it's a massive honour.

249
00:25:44,830 --> 00:25:51,840
It's the first speculative fiction award, you know, for Africans that there is it's the very first one.

250
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:58,000
Now, I was there from the onset, from the beginning when we started having casual conversations on Facebook about this.

251
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,020
And we were like part of the problem that that African offers,

252
00:26:02,020 --> 00:26:14,020
like continental African authors and the like have is that sometimes the storytelling traditions are not really well understood by Western editors,

253
00:26:14,020 --> 00:26:19,090
you know. Is there still it still is a problem that I see now. It's a problem you had at the outset of your career.

254
00:26:19,090 --> 00:26:27,610
Yes. Yes. You ask anybody from, you know, from any kind of minority or any kind of anybody who is not in a position of power,

255
00:26:27,610 --> 00:26:34,630
so to speak, and their stories tend to be marginalised. One of the reasons the stories are marginalised is what you said before.

256
00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:40,420
Another was the victors write the stories. In other words, the victors decide how stories are to be told.

257
00:26:40,420 --> 00:26:47,200
The other aspect is simply audiences are trained to understand particular types of storytelling.

258
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:54,550
All right. Little Miss Muffet sat on a tough editing recursion. Way along came a spider and sat down beside there and frightened mismo for the way.

259
00:26:54,550 --> 00:27:03,170
You know, that is a storytelling tradition. Now, if you are a child and you've been told that kind of story all your life.

260
00:27:03,170 --> 00:27:07,730
When you grow up and you finish from secondary school and you go into university and you study

261
00:27:07,730 --> 00:27:13,340
literature and you study creative writing and you become an editor in your you still have an MBA,

262
00:27:13,340 --> 00:27:21,290
regardless of what your training is, regardless of what kind of text you read in university, you will still have that imprint on your head.

263
00:27:21,290 --> 00:27:27,140
This is what a story is. A story is a beginning, middle and end, which is different from the same person.

264
00:27:27,140 --> 00:27:31,950
Grew up, for example, not in person, didn't grow up in Welwyn Garden City.

265
00:27:31,950 --> 00:27:36,830
The person grew up in Tokyo, for example. Ideas of stories are different people.

266
00:27:36,830 --> 00:27:42,800
In Lagos, your ideas of stories will still incorporate the Western way because of colonialism.

267
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:51,410
But underneath all of that, we have our own storytelling traditions and those are going to lead to different types of of narratives.

268
00:27:51,410 --> 00:27:57,320
When you when you begin to produce plays and screenplays and novels and short stories,

269
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,990
they're going to have different traditions because audiences are trained differently. Absolutely.

270
00:28:01,990 --> 00:28:07,490
But I was thinking about from what you're saying now and how we think about memory and narrative.

271
00:28:07,490 --> 00:28:14,690
Right. And the sort of linearity of what the supposed linearity of memory, which is, of course, not how we remember things.

272
00:28:14,690 --> 00:28:18,590
And that connexion with the linear narrative story, Little Miss Muffet.

273
00:28:18,590 --> 00:28:23,060
And then. And then. And then and that kind of pushing against that,

274
00:28:23,060 --> 00:28:31,160
which I think is so important in in our in our reading practises and absolutely a kind of a kind of bias that we have to work against.

275
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:36,250
That's true. Yeah. And the sense that that these narratives can kind of disrupt,

276
00:28:36,250 --> 00:28:44,300
but that there is also that element of if this is what you've grown up with and if your first is a little Miss Muffet stories,

277
00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:49,930
then you've got to then you've been there is going to be in somewhat.

278
00:28:49,930 --> 00:28:53,550
And so a reading blindspot. Yeah.

279
00:28:53,550 --> 00:28:58,900
Yes. I think that's one way of looking at it. There's so many ways of telling the story.

280
00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:05,840
You know, there's so many ways of thinking of certain ways of starting, you know, starting the story.

281
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:12,560
Yeah. I love the idea of the kind of thinking about something that, you know, a childhood narrative,

282
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:19,850
that kind of reshaping that to think about how how narrative works for novels for older people and how your

283
00:29:19,850 --> 00:29:26,480
formative reading can really shape and change who you become and the kind of stories that you can tell.

284
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:32,090
And you're a huge fan of Frankenstein, but you've also said the House of Leaves by Mark Z.

285
00:29:32,090 --> 00:29:39,590
Danielewski is a comfort read in different novels, reread, interestingly, innovative in different ways.

286
00:29:39,590 --> 00:29:44,810
Yeah, I wonder if you'd speak a little bit to that, because I think. Yeah. I think that there's so much going on there.

287
00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:50,150
I like I like playing with form. I like I like stories that play with form.

288
00:29:50,150 --> 00:30:00,700
So Frankenstein, even for its time, you know, already had the intersecting stories, you know, it was a, you know, like a Russian dolls Nestl stories,

289
00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:10,610
the story nested in in Victor Frankenstein story nested in Woolton, story nested in the narrative of them going to the North Pole.

290
00:30:10,610 --> 00:30:17,060
I loved that structure, the basic unreliability of the narratives all the way through, you know,

291
00:30:17,060 --> 00:30:23,810
because really we only have victors word about certain things to do with the creature.

292
00:30:23,810 --> 00:30:29,570
We only have this word for those things. That doesn't necessarily mean that's actually how it happened.

293
00:30:29,570 --> 00:30:37,280
And what did he admits so that he would look good. I like that you can think about Frankenstein, for example, in infinite ways.

294
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:43,550
You can sit down and start thinking, well, is it possible that.

295
00:30:43,550 --> 00:30:47,780
Victor was actually just some disturbed guy picked up and he was delirious and

296
00:30:47,780 --> 00:30:58,550
he was telling a complete fib that the whole thing wasn't even true anyway. Is it possible that Walton made the whole thing up to amuse his sister?

297
00:30:58,550 --> 00:31:04,310
Is it you know, there's so many there's so many ways to think about the story itself that just so many ways,

298
00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:08,390
if you sit down and obviously I have spent too much time reflecting on it.

299
00:31:08,390 --> 00:31:12,920
But you know what? I love it for that. I love it because it's not linear.

300
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:21,830
It's not it doesn't lend itself to easy explanations. You know, I love it because of the emotional complexity of Victor Frankenstein.

301
00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:31,250
True love not being Elizabeth, but actually being, you know, his friend and his dedication being something that's actually quite macabre.

302
00:31:31,250 --> 00:31:36,050
That's not actually a positive scientific story.

303
00:31:36,050 --> 00:31:42,470
Not unlike in the films in the book, you know, Victor isn't actually a doctor that often people say things like doctor friends,

304
00:31:42,470 --> 00:31:50,130
but he's not actually a doctor, is a medical student. So he didn't he he hadn't gone through all of the training.

305
00:31:50,130 --> 00:31:58,350
And then presumably he didn't go through the part that dealt with ethics ethics before it went ahead and did what he did.

306
00:31:58,350 --> 00:32:06,770
Mm hmm. You know, and at heart, you know, it's it's the it's the story of of an abandoned child at heart, which is Shelly's story as well.

307
00:32:06,770 --> 00:32:13,610
Yes, it's exactly. Shali story, Shelley. Story of, you know, having powerhouse intellectuals for parents,

308
00:32:13,610 --> 00:32:20,360
having activists for parents, and then not only being abandoned more or less by her parents,

309
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:26,530
not not true about her, but actual effective de facto abandonment, but also being abandoned by her husband.

310
00:32:26,530 --> 00:32:30,650
You know, at the same time, you know, pretty much at the time of writing the book.

311
00:32:30,650 --> 00:32:39,740
So it reflected in her life, which is, you know, pretty much as interesting as the book is, you know, in her father's life and her mother's life.

312
00:32:39,740 --> 00:32:45,780
It's so it's just it's a little mixed. So there's a nexus of interesting intersections, all of it.

313
00:32:45,780 --> 00:32:52,990
And in terms of the Laskey. You know, because, again, it has several layers of storytelling.

314
00:32:52,990 --> 00:32:58,660
You know, as the direct story, you know, of the inevitable documents of what's going on in this particular house.

315
00:32:58,660 --> 00:33:08,110
Then there's the story told in the footnotes about the discovery of the documents and discovery of the book and the experiments with texts,

316
00:33:08,110 --> 00:33:19,420
with structure, with everything. It worked very through work so well for me and I, you know, you know, so I like the uniqueness of it.

317
00:33:19,420 --> 00:33:23,200
As much as nothing is ever completely unique. But I like the uniqueness of it.

318
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,910
I like the inventiveness. And I like the fact that I can open any page and be interested in whatever I'm reading.

319
00:33:27,910 --> 00:33:31,720
Yeah, a beautifully disrupts what we think a book should be, right.

320
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:37,360
Yes. What is inside the covers and how we how we engage with that.

321
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,830
Have you read Frankenstein by Jeanette Winterson. Yes, I have.

322
00:33:40,830 --> 00:33:46,240
Yes. I loved I loved that as well. It's brilliant, isn't it? I love the spreading those stories together.

323
00:33:46,240 --> 00:34:02,410
And the idea of, you know, Victor walks amongst us can actually love you know, I love Julia Winston anyway.

324
00:34:02,410 --> 00:34:05,000
For those writers and speculators listening,

325
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:13,190
stay with us now for writing prompts and exercises designed to encourage putting pen to paper or hands to keyboard,

326
00:34:13,190 --> 00:34:25,280
as well as reflection on the writing process. This section is designed and presented by Larry Greenberg.

327
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:31,270
In this interview today, Thompson says that alien invasion stories are pure metaphor for colonialism.

328
00:34:31,270 --> 00:34:38,130
That's the powerful metaphor, then invites an empathetic jump. Entire cultures are appropriated and erased.

329
00:34:38,130 --> 00:34:44,020
Languages and appearances are disguised. People are stolen. Their homes appropriated.

330
00:34:44,020 --> 00:34:51,930
There are countless alien invasion stories available, told from every angle and often these centre on technological dominance.

331
00:34:51,930 --> 00:34:53,250
On a related note,

332
00:34:53,250 --> 00:35:03,120
Thompson also says he doesn't identify with stories that spend too much time on technological and logistical minutiae at the expense of character.

333
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:09,510
I think we need to talk about colonialism and I'm short on dialogue prompts in the series and maybe getting

334
00:35:09,510 --> 00:35:17,710
characters to talk to one another rather than invade each other will be a good idea for this exercise.

335
00:35:17,710 --> 00:35:27,150
Try to write a passage of pure dialogue, just speech and a minimum of associated description between an invader and an invader.

336
00:35:27,150 --> 00:35:32,430
It's up to you who they are, where they are, what they talk about.

337
00:35:32,430 --> 00:35:38,790
They might be barked orders and protestations or the conversation may become cathartic.

338
00:35:38,790 --> 00:35:45,080
In addition to Thompson's feelings on technology, let's these technologized the scene.

339
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:51,630
Should be no technology in the scene. No machines, no computers, no spacecraft.

340
00:35:51,630 --> 00:35:56,400
Just people or aliens, as the case may be.

341
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:09,350
Please share your ideas and consider how the restrictions have affected your vision and how it compares with any other pieces posted.

342
00:36:09,350 --> 00:36:18,590
Thompson Sacher analytical background and his interest and character, above all, recalled several strands in therapeutic creativity.

343
00:36:18,590 --> 00:36:25,640
Julia Cameron is the artist Sway or Natalie Goldberg's Writing Down the Bones or Margaret Atwood's Negotiating with

344
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:33,770
the Dead are just some examples of writing or creativity guides that take a therapeutic approach to creativity.

345
00:36:33,770 --> 00:36:41,990
One of Julia Cameron's key exercises is the narrative timeline, telling your own personal history as if it's a story.

346
00:36:41,990 --> 00:36:47,010
This helps us identify important themes and arcs in our own lives.

347
00:36:47,010 --> 00:36:53,450
For your final prompt, write your narrative timeline or just a brief segment of it.

348
00:36:53,450 --> 00:36:58,850
Then edited retail it. Reframe it in any way you like.

349
00:36:58,850 --> 00:37:05,960
You might like to pause now and return when you've written the exercise. Consider the following.

350
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,770
How have you retold your story? Do things get better or worst?

351
00:37:09,770 --> 00:37:17,210
In your new version, in the new story, are you someone completely different or recognisably the same?

352
00:37:17,210 --> 00:37:23,840
Do you live in a different place? Do you do different work, have different levels of influence?

353
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:33,290
Are the changes to the story small and subtle or sweeping? Did you avoid the hard stare inside and actually describe someone else?

354
00:37:33,290 --> 00:37:37,910
If you read the notes in the opening prompt of the Lauren Beukes interview.

355
00:37:37,910 --> 00:37:46,550
Look back at it now. Do you feel any more or less inspired to write despite the isolation of writing itself?

356
00:37:46,550 --> 00:37:59,280
Creativity is a communal act, so we've helped you feel more connected and inspired.

357
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,840
And that concludes the final episode of the Narrative Futures podcast.

358
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,990
Thanks to Today Thompson for joining us on this episode.

359
00:38:06,990 --> 00:38:15,330
And to all of you listening in for engaging with these ideas and debates, if you have any comments or contributions, you can tweet us at think fut.

360
00:38:15,330 --> 00:38:24,720
Now, your host on this podcast is Chelsea Haith, and you can tweet me at Chelsie, Underscore Haith and Louie at Louis Greenberg.

361
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:31,800
The transcripts of the podcast are available on the Torch Web site under the Future Thinking Tab and include links to the authors,

362
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:37,530
books and ideas we've discussed over the course of the podcast. Thank you to all of our listeners and guests.

363
00:38:37,530 --> 00:38:47,249
Feel careful, thought and contributions that narratives for a better future.