1 00:00:01,140 --> 00:00:07,020 Francis Skaife is a courier in the northeast of England in their hometown of Teeside. 2 00:00:07,020 --> 00:00:12,720 It's a home and they love it, but it's a town that suffered heavily from deindustrialisation. 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:18,180 We have like, well, we had up industry like steelworks and ISCI. 4 00:00:18,180 --> 00:00:22,890 Things like that. But it's also just totally died out. It's not the best place to live. 5 00:00:22,890 --> 00:00:27,920 Sometimes it's quite big when you're at work and night is like a lone female. 6 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:37,570 Is that scary? No, like, it's it's OK. It's just it's just one of those kind of forgotten towns in the north that people don't really know about. 7 00:00:37,570 --> 00:00:46,200 Francis HUF pronouns are they then work for the gig economy platforms do it, making deliveries around their local area. 8 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,060 They suffered from several health conditions and have done for many years now and 9 00:00:51,060 --> 00:00:55,660 working for Stewart with their first job after being out of work for some time. 10 00:00:55,660 --> 00:01:00,480 So my first day in prison, I think I was pretty quiet. 11 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:05,730 I remember being like in KFC carpark, parked my car here. 12 00:01:05,730 --> 00:01:12,570 My best friend Gere's context makes the left and then like one of her friends to the left of her and we'll pop them like a roll. 13 00:01:12,570 --> 00:01:20,790 And I remember taking a selfie with everyone, like it was just really nice to actually be out and be getting paid to sit with your pals basically, 14 00:01:20,790 --> 00:01:25,980 you know, on a slope knowing that you're going to get money regardless if it was busy. 15 00:01:25,980 --> 00:01:30,680 So it was really nice. It was just really it was like liberating is the right word. 16 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:38,650 But I've been out of work for so long and just feeling like I wasn't useful to suddenly having this job where, 17 00:01:38,650 --> 00:01:43,080 you know, it's not a huge amount of responsibility. But, you know, I was getting paid. 18 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:49,820 They expected me to do a job. And, you know, it was just nice to feel like I was actually working again on Rowby Waran. 19 00:01:49,820 --> 00:01:56,610 And this is the Fair Work podcast. And look at the lives of the people working within the gig economy. 20 00:01:56,610 --> 00:02:05,370 This episode looks at management. What's it like working for a platform where the principal colleague you're working with is your smartphone? 21 00:02:05,370 --> 00:02:26,160 And how do you deal with the problems you encounter in your working day? When you have no human manager to turn to? 22 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:35,080 Frances is classed as a self-employed independent contractor, meaning they don't have access to any forms of sick pay or holiday pay. 23 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:40,150 So I live with chronic fatigue syndrome and five myalgia. 24 00:02:40,150 --> 00:02:46,420 That's sort of the main issues. So going through tests, the list unlost syndrome. 25 00:02:46,420 --> 00:02:56,020 So it basically just means that I have quite a of chronic fatigue, pain like muscle and joint pains. 26 00:02:56,020 --> 00:03:06,520 I get like dislocations in my knees and my arm calls. So it just it makes obviously I am sitting down quite a lot as like a driver in a car at work. 27 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:14,260 But yeah, it does affect it. Like what I get these flare ups pain and I just can't go to bed and I know I need to go to work. 28 00:03:14,260 --> 00:03:16,210 I want money that week. 29 00:03:16,210 --> 00:03:25,450 So that's that's been something that's been quite tough recently as my health has been declining a bit is like having shed those sectors both not 30 00:03:25,450 --> 00:03:36,250 really having access to any sort of sick pay for how to operate the system whereby couriers can even work on slot or float on slot machines, 31 00:03:36,250 --> 00:03:40,780 that careers are guaranteed an hourly wage for a predetermined period, 32 00:03:40,780 --> 00:03:46,480 but must be in a specific zone for an exact amount of time and follow certain rules. 33 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,580 This includes the inability to reject work off. 34 00:03:50,580 --> 00:03:57,610 On the other hand, give correas more freedom, including when and where they work and what jobs they accept and decline. 35 00:03:57,610 --> 00:04:04,780 Francis prefers working off slot duty with flexibility, but sometimes feels the need to work on slot. 36 00:04:04,780 --> 00:04:10,810 I asked Francis about what it's like working for this app and what it's like communicating must to it. 37 00:04:10,810 --> 00:04:17,350 So I would take communicating with Stewart is like pulling hen's teeth. It's just it's painful. 38 00:04:17,350 --> 00:04:24,910 It's long, it's slow, it's arduous. You basically say you have an issue on the job. 39 00:04:24,910 --> 00:04:28,770 You know, a customer hasn't answered the door. You need to return the food to a restaurant. 40 00:04:28,770 --> 00:04:36,640 You contact them through the app and they will make you sit and wait like ten minutes and you've got to jump through all these hoops. 41 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:45,100 But it's often like they have also reply. I think they have some kind of like something subtle to filter out certain words 42 00:04:45,100 --> 00:04:51,040 that you message them and it will just auto reply something related to that. 43 00:04:51,040 --> 00:05:00,790 So if you say something like, this job is too far away, you might get a reply back just saying, like, why have you not delivered the food yet? 44 00:05:00,790 --> 00:05:08,830 And it's like often I think it's just totally unrelated and it just feels like, I don't know, like anyone else. 45 00:05:08,830 --> 00:05:15,820 If you have an issue at work. Kentucky box. Right. You go you can go and talk to someone you can talk to or whatever. 46 00:05:15,820 --> 00:05:19,690 But with us, it's like you have this off, you can email us. 47 00:05:19,690 --> 00:05:26,490 We can't really promise you'll get the reply that you want. There's no sort of appeal if you think something's wrong. 48 00:05:26,490 --> 00:05:33,100 And it just feels like we are totally disposable and we don't really like that. 49 00:05:33,100 --> 00:05:40,880 That's the first thing I would say is important, is that communication with your boss or with your superiors. 50 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:47,320 And we just don't have. I think it makes me just feel, as I said, like quite disposable. 51 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:52,540 Like, they don't really they don't really care. 52 00:05:52,540 --> 00:06:01,210 I think at an all there, they're a huge, huge multinational company that is, you know, raking quite a lot of money. 53 00:06:01,210 --> 00:06:07,480 And I feel like they could put so much more effort into that contact with their workers, 54 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:12,280 you know, the very people who are delivering their packages that they want delivered. 55 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:17,500 If you can't even have the most basic sort of set of communication with those people, 56 00:06:17,500 --> 00:06:25,450 how can you expect them to sort of work for you and be happy about working for you, especially if you can't even you know, 57 00:06:25,450 --> 00:06:31,660 it makes me feel crap that, you know, if I have an issue on a job or if someone, you know, 58 00:06:31,660 --> 00:06:40,480 times where I've message where I felt my safety was at risk and you get some auto generated reply where someone hasn't read your message. 59 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:48,060 Francis had numerous cases where they felt worried about their safety whilst at work and turned to the platform for help and support. 60 00:06:48,060 --> 00:06:52,660 Yeah, I mean, there's been a few times where, like, I felt like safety was at risk. 61 00:06:52,660 --> 00:07:02,740 That's you. And like, I think one of them in particular, I was at a guy's house delivering some food and he like literally grabbed my arm and like, 62 00:07:02,740 --> 00:07:12,130 stodge pulled me and I just, like, pulled myself back in my car on the road away and like, managed to get hot message. 63 00:07:12,130 --> 00:07:18,880 Stuart and I got just some kind of I think it was just some kind of auto generated reply, as I said, 64 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:25,330 that they use this filter system on certain words and it just didn't even relate back to what I'd said. 65 00:07:25,330 --> 00:07:29,420 And I was just like some guys basically just assaulted me. 66 00:07:29,420 --> 00:07:37,980 And you haven't even bothered to reply properly, you have even bothered to give me a constructive you know, what I can do about this situation. 67 00:07:37,980 --> 00:07:44,430 Can I flag this person's house or put a complaint in? It was literally just I can't remember specifically what it was, 68 00:07:44,430 --> 00:07:51,390 but I just remember it was some object generated by that didn't didn't even relate to what happened. 69 00:07:51,390 --> 00:07:53,250 But it seems to happen quite a lot. 70 00:07:53,250 --> 00:08:01,860 Like I, I don't do delivery's in certain areas because of, you know, my safety and worrying that something's going to happen there. 71 00:08:01,860 --> 00:08:27,890 And knowing that if I contact Suer, it's probably not a be a very good reply to that. 72 00:08:27,890 --> 00:08:39,120 As a means to manage workers. The Stewart app runs a scoring system for all of its careers known as a client performance school or CPS. 73 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:44,210 The school is a tool to let kuris know how well or badly they're performing. 74 00:08:44,210 --> 00:08:50,400 It's based around how many jobs you take and how many slots you take or how many slots you don't turn 75 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:56,880 before it counts all of those things and gives you sort of a weekly score of how well you're doing. 76 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:01,910 And it's like how satisfied all your clients are with your work. 77 00:09:01,910 --> 00:09:11,960 And you can sort of be penalised by, say, you take slots for a week and you don't turn up for two or three of them. 78 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:21,680 Your good CPS would be penalised because you you got to and not to end up essentially just like not turning up for not shift at work. 79 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:26,240 A key aspect of the scoring system is that Stewart doesn't make public how schools 80 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:31,940 actually impact careers and how they use within the process of algorithmic management. 81 00:09:31,940 --> 00:09:37,790 This is the thing. I don't know. I don't know if the high or CPS score is the more jobs are assigned to you 82 00:09:37,790 --> 00:09:42,580 or I don't know what their job allocation is like or why they allocate jobs, 83 00:09:42,580 --> 00:09:52,640 certainly. But I think some of us definitely wouldn't wondered if having a higher CPS score would mean you're allocated more jobs as well. 84 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:57,320 In addition, schools can be used as a reason for terminating someone's account. 85 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:04,310 But yeah, it's with you, CPS. It's this sort of looming threat that if it ever goes beyond like a below a certain 86 00:10:04,310 --> 00:10:08,900 point that you might get your account looked into and possibly terminate it. 87 00:10:08,900 --> 00:10:15,500 But it definitely looms over me and sort of feels like they're sort of dangling my employment over me and saying, look, 88 00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:23,090 if you don't you don't have a high score, then we'll we'll terminate your accounts, because that I think has happened. 89 00:10:23,090 --> 00:10:29,180 People will fall away if you go below ground to very give you, I think, a fault. 90 00:10:29,180 --> 00:10:34,040 I also to improve your score. If it doesn't improve, they'll they'll terminate your account. 91 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,780 So I think that definitely worries me sometimes because mine's only about three. 92 00:10:38,780 --> 00:10:45,050 It's not great. And that's because obviously I've had a lot of sick time off for, you know, the day before shift. 93 00:10:45,050 --> 00:10:49,040 I'll have a flare, but I need to consulate, so I'll I'll be penalised for that. 94 00:10:49,040 --> 00:11:07,190 So I definitely worry about my CPA score. I wonder if it's going to ever come and bite me in the butt. 95 00:11:07,190 --> 00:11:13,670 For Francis, communicating with Stewart has always been difficult as a platform. 96 00:11:13,670 --> 00:11:21,900 It operates no fixed offices in the area where Francis works and all communications take place via email. 97 00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:28,810 At the start of the U.K., first national lockdown, couriers were facing difficulties related to their work. 98 00:11:28,810 --> 00:11:31,800 France has turned to Stuart for help. 99 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:42,000 We were having a lot of issues accessing toilets like delivery partners, being able to access toilets at places where they were picking jobs. 100 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:47,580 And there was this sort of requirement that all couriers wash their hands before each and after every delivery. 101 00:11:47,580 --> 00:11:51,780 But there was no effort to do it because places just weren't letting us in the toilets. 102 00:11:51,780 --> 00:11:58,000 So I crafted this really great email. Took me days. This email, I thought was fantastic. 103 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:04,890 That was really sassy, I thought, when I got my point across. And I got this sort of. 104 00:12:04,890 --> 00:12:08,580 It was so. So. I couldn't even put it into words. 105 00:12:08,580 --> 00:12:12,320 This I spent ages on my email. It was pages long. 106 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,670 And I got this reply, which wasn't even a couple of lines, wasn't even a paragraph. 107 00:12:16,670 --> 00:12:22,260 And it just said, we are aware of the issue and are discussing it with curious like. 108 00:12:22,260 --> 00:12:26,790 And that was it. I don't even think she said like, hello. Hello, how are you? It was just very much. 109 00:12:26,790 --> 00:12:31,140 We know we're discussing it. Thank you very much. Bye. 110 00:12:31,140 --> 00:12:41,130 I think the whole my response to it was, you know, that situation not being able to access toilets was humiliating enough. 111 00:12:41,130 --> 00:12:47,580 And I had really spent a lot of time trying to get the point across this lady about why it was an issue, 112 00:12:47,580 --> 00:12:59,130 why it was important and why it was against the law. And it was just this whole like it's just it's how Stewart is this blunt, blousy. 113 00:12:59,130 --> 00:13:08,850 They don't really have time for you. So there's just craft this tiny little email and it just makes you feel like so small. 114 00:13:08,850 --> 00:13:14,490 Because I know it was it's it was crap having to deal with that, not being able to access toilets. 115 00:13:14,490 --> 00:13:20,010 You don't have to go outside some careers. You know, it was really desperate. 116 00:13:20,010 --> 00:13:28,110 Some couriers got toilet in streets and in bushes and, you know, it was demoralising and painful enough to even go through. 117 00:13:28,110 --> 00:13:35,430 So for them to reply with not even a paragraph, you know, not I don't even think they even said hello or said my name. 118 00:13:35,430 --> 00:13:39,180 It was just we are discussing it with correas. Thank you. 119 00:13:39,180 --> 00:13:44,880 She probably didn't think so. I think I'm being too nice. Well, I just thought, you know what? 120 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:50,100 I'm one of you down, Corea's. I've worked for for nearly two years now. 121 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:57,970 Do I not get a say in this conversation? I just think there needed some kind of quick response to get me off the case. 122 00:13:57,970 --> 00:14:03,450 And I don't think think realise that I'm like a dog with a bone and I'm not letting all these issues go. 123 00:14:03,450 --> 00:14:16,560 They're not getting away with it. Thanks to Frontispiece Skaife for sharing their story at Fair Work. 124 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:24,510 We believe that all work can and should be characterised by fair pay, fair condition, fair contracts, 125 00:14:24,510 --> 00:14:33,450 fair representation and fair management platforms ultimately have the power to improve standards and the ability to choose. 126 00:14:33,450 --> 00:14:39,810 Too many platforms operate management structures that opaque and with little capability 127 00:14:39,810 --> 00:14:45,180 for workers to understand the process by which work is managed and distributed, 128 00:14:45,180 --> 00:14:47,420 platforms can improve the work they provide. 129 00:14:47,420 --> 00:14:55,550 By opening up communication channels for workers with human representatives, by taking active steps to ensure that discrimination does not occur, 130 00:14:55,550 --> 00:15:02,270 and by opening up documented channels for workers to appear low ratings and deactivation. 131 00:15:02,270 --> 00:15:09,530 We're actively campaigning to improve the conditions for workers around the world and whole platform to account. 132 00:15:09,530 --> 00:15:15,890 You can find out more Fair Work. 133 00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:38,318 This episode was written and produced by Robbie, wherein our music was composed by Louis Borlase with additional competition by rookie Barry.