1 00:00:01,500 --> 00:00:14,430 Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this evening's seminar on reimagining urban mobility after covered 19. 2 00:00:14,430 --> 00:00:29,250 This talk is part of the Oxford Martin School series on building back better the challenges and opportunities arising from the Cubitt 19 pandemic. 3 00:00:29,250 --> 00:00:37,080 My name is Jim Hall. I'm Professor of Climate Environmental Risks in the Evangel Mental Change Institute. 4 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:44,640 And I'm also lead researcher on the Oxford Martin Programme on Transboundary Resource Management. 5 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,880 But this afternoon, this evening, we're talking about mobility, 6 00:00:49,880 --> 00:01:02,160 how we all get around and the dramatic changes to transport behaviours have been really one of the most striking aspects of the pandemic. 7 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:15,390 Pretty much overnight, streets went silent. People noticed the impact on ongoings on air pollution, packed commuter trains and tube uninvented. 8 00:01:15,390 --> 00:01:21,660 And now they're being bailed out to the tune of billions of pounds. 9 00:01:21,660 --> 00:01:31,110 Many of the things that used to require mobility, like coming to a lecture in the Oxford Martin School, have gone online. 10 00:01:31,110 --> 00:01:43,860 But people are also feeling, I think, some of the deprivation of mobility, mobility to visit friends and family and to go on holiday. 11 00:01:43,860 --> 00:01:51,780 These are behavioural changes that all too, because they've they've studied for most of their careers. 12 00:01:51,780 --> 00:01:57,120 But there are changes, dramatic changes that happened pretty much overnight. 13 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:06,930 So we're in very good hands to understand those changes and understand what the implications might be for the future. 14 00:02:06,930 --> 00:02:09,340 We have Professor Tim Schwann, 15 00:02:09,340 --> 00:02:20,550 who's director of the Transport Studies Unit in the University of Oxford and is lead researcher on the Oxford Martin programme on informal cities. 16 00:02:20,550 --> 00:02:29,690 And Dr Jenny Middleton, who's a senior research fellow in Ability's than human geography in the Transport Studies Unit. 17 00:02:29,690 --> 00:02:35,370 And before I hand do that to Tim and Jenny. 18 00:02:35,370 --> 00:02:43,810 Let me remind you that this talk is being recorded. And this is very much a discussion. 19 00:02:43,810 --> 00:02:54,090 Will be an opportunity to pose questions after we've had some opening remarks from Tim and Jenny. 20 00:02:54,090 --> 00:02:57,390 And if you'd like to ask a question, 21 00:02:57,390 --> 00:03:09,180 then please click on the ad question button at the bottom right hand side of the screen and I will try and navigate my way through those questions. 22 00:03:09,180 --> 00:03:13,080 I think there's an opportunity to vote for them, 23 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:23,250 which will bump them up to the top of the list and will post them to are extremely well qualified speakers. 24 00:03:23,250 --> 00:03:37,110 But first of all, from opening remarks, first from Tim Trunnion and Tim N-E has been absolutely dramatic, hasn't it? 25 00:03:37,110 --> 00:03:47,590 But then, based on your understanding, take us through in your own words what has happened. 26 00:03:47,590 --> 00:03:58,800 And the question I think many of us are asking is how much of this is going to stick in the future and what should policymakers be doing about it? 27 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:05,760 Well, thank you, Jim. There's a lot that can be said in response to the questions you're asking. 28 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:15,180 I'm going to highlight three aspects. One is that obviously what has happened is a dramatic reduction in mobility. 29 00:04:15,180 --> 00:04:24,810 And there are now many studies being published in the academic literature from many different countries and cities. 30 00:04:24,810 --> 00:04:32,760 But what they show is somewhat of a reduction of personal mobility between roughly 60 to 90 percent. 31 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,570 We did a study recently using mobile phone data for one and a half. 32 00:04:36,570 --> 00:04:41,840 One point one million people in England, and it showed about 70 percent reduction. 33 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:52,270 That's the peak. And what we've seen is that gradually that reduction has come back in the sense it has become less. 34 00:04:52,270 --> 00:04:59,460 People started moving more again and perhaps more important than. 35 00:04:59,460 --> 00:05:03,660 Looking at the average picture, which we tend to do so often, 36 00:05:03,660 --> 00:05:12,150 is that because what the media does is thinking about differences within or behind those averages. 37 00:05:12,150 --> 00:05:13,680 And in this case, 38 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:26,310 one of the things that comes out quite strongly is that people with lower incomes and with more precarious jobs tend to have reduced their mobility, 39 00:05:26,310 --> 00:05:35,960 much less so. They tend to travel more in relative terms after the lockdowns that have been commonplace in so many cities and countries. 40 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:42,120 And quite what that shows is that one of the things we've seen is that to an extent, 41 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:47,490 being able to stay at home, even if the government tells you so, is a luxury. 42 00:05:47,490 --> 00:05:51,870 It's something that you have to be able to afford. Many people don't. 43 00:05:51,870 --> 00:05:59,550 And that holds for cities in the U.K. that holds just as much for a city like Accra in Ghana, 44 00:05:59,550 --> 00:06:05,400 where we happen to have been doing some research where you see that people who work in the informal economy, 45 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:15,390 people who are sort of relatively or have a low income, they just have to go out and work through exams. 46 00:06:15,390 --> 00:06:23,310 So there is a big. I think one lesson that we really need to learn from this is that we need to focus on social differences, 47 00:06:23,310 --> 00:06:29,520 spatial differences between people, rather than simply look at the average numbers. 48 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:40,380 Of course, we know that mobility is very important. And what the whole situation has shown, that's mobility is particularly important for economies. 49 00:06:40,380 --> 00:06:45,430 We knew that. We know that for a long time. You can already read it, Adam Smith, for instance. 50 00:06:45,430 --> 00:06:49,140 But it is also very important for our well-being and mental health. 51 00:06:49,140 --> 00:06:58,180 Much of the discussion about. About knockdowns and the detrimental effects on mental health is because people can't travel. 52 00:06:58,180 --> 00:07:05,310 It's not that travel necessarily in and of itself is bringing people health benefits, mental health benefits. 53 00:07:05,310 --> 00:07:13,850 It is because of the activities. It allows you to access in destinations. 54 00:07:13,850 --> 00:07:17,700 Lockdown, however, also has positives. Nothing. I want to highlight two. 55 00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:22,840 One is that's what many people thought was not going to happen. 56 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:35,790 Governments putting in place radical restrictions on mobility has all of a sudden happens even in very liberal in advance liberal democracies. 57 00:07:35,790 --> 00:07:39,240 And the interesting thing is that it shows us that if the urgency, 58 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:48,420 the perceived urgency is is strong enough, then governments are willing to do these kinds of restrictions. 59 00:07:48,420 --> 00:07:58,920 And that opens up new ways of thinking about what might happen once climate in the climate crisis really comes. 60 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,100 It becomes much more urgent. 61 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:15,620 Of course, saving lives, saving a health care system is not quite the same at present as reducing or avoiding certain environmental changes. 62 00:08:15,620 --> 00:08:20,400 But at least there's a precedent. And the thing that's something that's very interesting. 63 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:27,570 The other thing that's interesting is that for many people who've been locked into coal dominated lifestyles, 64 00:08:27,570 --> 00:08:34,620 they've seen something that many transport experts is kind of the ideal scenario for the future, 65 00:08:34,620 --> 00:08:44,070 where we walk and cycle much more, where our lives become much more localised, where we don't drive as much, we don't fly as much. 66 00:08:44,070 --> 00:08:47,520 And whether we want it or not, when we look about. 67 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:55,620 When we look at the situation that transport on the global scale finds itself in is the third largest emitter of CO2 emissions, 68 00:08:55,620 --> 00:09:00,630 then we need to think about radically, radically different ways of doing transport. 69 00:09:00,630 --> 00:09:08,910 Technology is very important. And we've seen sort of a real increase in technological innovations and the real 70 00:09:08,910 --> 00:09:14,190 uptake from automation to mobility as a service and digital payment systems. 71 00:09:14,190 --> 00:09:22,490 But technology alone or even infrastructure developments are not going to fix the problem of transport. 72 00:09:22,490 --> 00:09:28,410 Their contributions to CO2 emissions will have to reduce mobility. 73 00:09:28,410 --> 00:09:34,830 However unpalatable that message is politically and also to many people. 74 00:09:34,830 --> 00:09:43,260 So what this lockdown has shown is that actually we can lead lives not where mobility was not essential as it used to. 75 00:09:43,260 --> 00:09:47,910 It doesn't necessarily have to be that bad. 76 00:09:47,910 --> 00:09:55,920 The third thing I would say is that many governments have tried to seise on that momentum that the lockdown has created. 77 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,560 We've seen that in London where the low traffic neighbourhoods have. 78 00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:04,660 Put in place and we see that in cities elsewhere, in fact, 79 00:10:04,660 --> 00:10:14,740 that would say cities on the continent have been much more radical in pursuing these kinds of approaches and cities in the UK. 80 00:10:14,740 --> 00:10:22,290 But we also see that now that's the pandemic is it's going on. 81 00:10:22,290 --> 00:10:31,410 And then during I think we're seeing some of that early enthusiasm about low carbon mobility is becoming smaller. 82 00:10:31,410 --> 00:10:42,520 I think we're actually in a situation where there's a risk that governments and other actors are going to stimulate any kind of mobility. 83 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:47,440 Once the pandemic is declared over simply because they believe this is the prime. 84 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:53,340 This is a very sensible way of increasing economic growth, increasing economic development. 85 00:10:53,340 --> 00:11:02,320 Nothing. There's a genuine risk that we see the re re entrenchment of carbon intensive mobility going forward. 86 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:09,190 That's not the message I think I would like to we'd like to promote. 87 00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:14,870 But I think there's a real risk there and we need to prevent that from happening. 88 00:11:14,870 --> 00:11:23,090 The. Does that give you a kids point to start with? 89 00:11:23,090 --> 00:11:29,330 Well, it gets this going very well. Thanks very much indeed, Tim. 90 00:11:29,330 --> 00:11:37,680 And there are already a lot of questions coming up in the chat, a very wide ranging set of questions. 91 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:42,680 So thank you very much indeed for posing those. 92 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:46,490 Everyone in the audience here. And I'll come back to you in a moment. 93 00:11:46,490 --> 00:12:04,250 Tim, with some of those questions. But before I do, let me ask Dr. Jenny Middleton, senior research fellow in the Transport Studies Unit. 94 00:12:04,250 --> 00:12:08,920 To say a little bit more about active travel. 95 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,790 And in a moment, you can explain what you mean by that. 96 00:12:13,790 --> 00:12:20,780 But I'm sure people in the audience will have their own thoughts about that right now. 97 00:12:20,780 --> 00:12:29,470 But the in short, has Cauvin 19 actually been good for active travel? 98 00:12:29,470 --> 00:12:35,560 That's a great question, Jim, and thanks. I'm going to say I'm going to answer that with some of the points I want to make. 99 00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:39,610 With the help of a few slides song, I'm going to try and share my screen. 100 00:12:39,610 --> 00:12:53,380 I'm delighted to be here. Just the lights on the invitation. So I cheque the school. 101 00:12:53,380 --> 00:12:58,120 Can you see those slides? Yes, I can. 102 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:07,850 Go ahead. Brilliant. OK, great. So, as I said, I'm going to build a bit on the is just spoken about by talking about active travel and has, 103 00:13:07,850 --> 00:13:12,850 you know, has the pandemic being a positive thing for active travel. 104 00:13:12,850 --> 00:13:18,980 Now, debates around active travel have been central to the discussion of mobility and the pandemic. 105 00:13:18,980 --> 00:13:25,050 But before I go further, I've got a couple of opening thoughts. 106 00:13:25,050 --> 00:13:27,320 And the first one I know Tim has touched on this. 107 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:36,430 I think any discussion of urban mobility post pandemic needs to move beyond just focussing on infrastructure alone and by infrastructure. 108 00:13:36,430 --> 00:13:42,880 I'm referring here to materials, stuff, hardware, etc. And relatedly, 109 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:52,060 I think we really need to take more seriously people's lived experiences and move these to the centre of power that mobility is planned for. 110 00:13:52,060 --> 00:13:58,710 And imagine going forwards. OK. So as Jim said, you know what is active travel. 111 00:13:58,710 --> 00:14:04,320 So it can take many different forms, but is essentially when human power is used to move. 112 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:09,060 And historically very strong links to sustainability and health agendas. 113 00:14:09,060 --> 00:14:17,640 And there are many examples of that roller skating, skateboarding, but walking and cycling are very much the most prevalent. 114 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:25,050 I think an important distinction to make here is between active travel and Kovik, 19 active travel. 115 00:14:25,050 --> 00:14:33,390 What does this mean? So I've got a few images here that many of you will be familiar with and things that happen 116 00:14:33,390 --> 00:14:38,700 to the streets in the wake of that dramatic empting that Jim mentioned in the introduction. 117 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:44,370 So many streets were closed to cause priority given to walking in psych cycling. 118 00:14:44,370 --> 00:14:49,980 And they were configured in particular ways to facilitate appropriate social distancing. 119 00:14:49,980 --> 00:14:54,990 I've got two images here. One Glasgow, one in Budapest, but many, many more. 120 00:14:54,990 --> 00:15:02,510 Several governments, including the UK and New Zealand, announced funding packages for walking and cycling infrastructure. 121 00:15:02,510 --> 00:15:08,160 And in Paris, they use this as an opportunity to promote the notion of the fifteen minute city, 122 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:16,470 for example, a concept where residents live and work or within a 15 minute radius of their of their home. 123 00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:25,110 And then just last week, the living streets, the former the former pedestrians association in the UK. 124 00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:27,720 And that, you know, put this tweet out about, you know, what, 125 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:35,670 the new restrictions as we entered lockdown to meant for walking, you know, where, when and who were we allowed to walk with? 126 00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:41,580 Now, I found this image and I'll leave you to guess which UK city this is. 127 00:15:41,580 --> 00:15:46,260 I think it visually illustrates some of the points I want to make here today. 128 00:15:46,260 --> 00:15:53,820 Now, I don't want to unfairly critique the image as it was produced in this way to illustrate something very particular about kov. 129 00:15:53,820 --> 00:15:59,880 It's safe streetscape, you know, in relation to flows of pedestrians and social distancing. 130 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:05,910 However, I couldn't help be struck by the ways in which these pedestrians had been rendered. 131 00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:10,270 If you look really closely, you can make out what I think is meant to be an older couple. 132 00:16:10,270 --> 00:16:16,440 Someone pushing a wheelchair, mother with a child. But there's also a literal whitewashing of these bodies. 133 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,310 The image projects hollowed out white empty bodies, if you like. 134 00:16:21,310 --> 00:16:25,830 And I'm showing this as I think it's quite a good representation of a broader, 135 00:16:25,830 --> 00:16:30,540 dominant discourse around active travel, which I think we need to challenge. 136 00:16:30,540 --> 00:16:39,180 And this is where historically understandings of walking and cycling often take little account of embodied experiences. 137 00:16:39,180 --> 00:16:44,870 So a nondisabled, unencumbered white adult male is often assumed. 138 00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:53,860 I want I want to say here is that actually it's important to challenge these assumptions and not all our experiences of active travel at the same. 139 00:16:53,860 --> 00:17:01,060 Now, I came across this article in The Guardian a few weeks ago, and it talks about, you know, the many examples of where, 140 00:17:01,060 --> 00:17:08,300 you know, restaurants and bars but onto the streets and, you know, priority was given to cyclists and pedestrians. 141 00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:15,220 And in the article, they interview the mayor of the cycling mayor of Coventry, Adam Trancer. 142 00:17:15,220 --> 00:17:20,410 And I don't trying to make it a couple of really interesting points. 143 00:17:20,410 --> 00:17:26,860 And what the first one is that he says that for cities to continue prioritising walkers and cyclists. 144 00:17:26,860 --> 00:17:33,010 The only thing required is political will and leadership. And this might be something to reflect upon a bit. 145 00:17:33,010 --> 00:17:41,710 But then he moves on to ask a question, which I actually think is central to any discussion of post pandemic ability futures. 146 00:17:41,710 --> 00:17:51,470 And that is, who do urban centres serve? Not to me, this is a vital question, particularly in terms of how certain uses are privileged over others. 147 00:17:51,470 --> 00:17:56,190 And I think it goes back to your question, Jim, about, you know, has the pandemic been good for active travel? 148 00:17:56,190 --> 00:18:02,480 And I think the question is good for who? And I'm not alone in making this argument. 149 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,710 And you know how certain uses are often privileged over others. 150 00:18:05,710 --> 00:18:11,970 And this can be exemplified by some of the some of the low traffic neighbourhoods that we might want to talk about. 151 00:18:11,970 --> 00:18:23,850 And in effect, you know, literally shutting the closing down of some streets has pushed air pollution and congestion to other areas. 152 00:18:23,850 --> 00:18:28,560 And I think I've got a couple of other examples that I'd just like to talk through quickly. 153 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,730 One is sort of a bit closer to home. 154 00:18:30,730 --> 00:18:38,640 Now, my family quite fortunate to have access to urban greens base near to our house and during the first lockdown. 155 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:43,320 Although the amount of people decreased. So, you know, it wasn't as busy. 156 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:48,340 It was still necessary to navigate a range of different encounters. 157 00:18:48,340 --> 00:18:54,660 You know, managing you know, I'm sure everyone had very similar experiences in terms of going out for these walks. 158 00:18:54,660 --> 00:18:57,560 But after a few days, I start to find these quite stressful. 159 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:02,280 And, you know, these were walk's that meant to contribute to our physical and mental wellbeing. 160 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:08,700 And I found myself barking at my children, you know, states the land don't go too close, know, like herding cats. 161 00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:14,400 And the children were actually chastised several times by older adults for not moving appropriately. 162 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:21,900 And I felt this like pressure and weight of societal responsibility that began to make these books far from enjoyable. 163 00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:31,140 And I've no doubt others had similar experiences. Now, conflicts between pedestrians and between pedestrians, cyclists are nothing new in urban space. 164 00:19:31,140 --> 00:19:37,620 You know, these happen all the time. But I think in the wider context of the Kovik 19 pandemic, 165 00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:46,710 these tensions of these encounters are heightened and a politics emerges from the restrictions placed on us by the viruses who is able to walk, 166 00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:56,100 for example, and who isn't. And these expectations of what it is to be a responsible walker, maintaining acceptable social distancing. 167 00:19:56,100 --> 00:20:01,800 And there's sort of been this societal repositioning of walking during the outbreak where our bodies 168 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:09,340 and our differential experiences of walking have really become magnified and sort of centre stage. 169 00:20:09,340 --> 00:20:13,630 I think, you know, this this example I talk about with my kids. 170 00:20:13,630 --> 00:20:18,610 I mean, that's nothing compared to sits in very stark contrast to the traumatic events 171 00:20:18,610 --> 00:20:23,980 that unfolded as the Indian government announced a 21 day lockdown in March. 172 00:20:23,980 --> 00:20:31,210 So as migrant workers fled the cities back to their villages, there was no space on the overcrowded buses still operating. 173 00:20:31,210 --> 00:20:38,680 And that's left thousands of workers who now have no work, little choice but to walk, often hundreds of miles home. 174 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:44,350 Now, many died on these treacherous journeys, with others arriving in villages to find they were no longer welcome. 175 00:20:44,350 --> 00:20:47,500 Due to fears of the virus being brought with them. 176 00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:55,780 So the impact of the virus highlights even more acutely how the benefits and positive experiences frequently associated with walking. 177 00:20:55,780 --> 00:21:02,890 And a lot the positive experiences that been talked about in the broader discourse are far from universal. 178 00:21:02,890 --> 00:21:07,080 And then in the case of walking, it's not one thing to people. 179 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:14,870 I guess the question is how do we situate these examples in the broader discourse of the benefits of active travel? 180 00:21:14,870 --> 00:21:19,360 And I think here Osborn and Grant Smith make an important point where they talk about the 181 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:27,130 significance of our intersectional identities to our experiences of an access to the city. 182 00:21:27,130 --> 00:21:34,390 And I think the point I'd like to make here is that who we are and how we move or important are moving bodies matter. 183 00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:43,000 And I cannot emphasise this this enough. So, I mean, you could take the example of Jay walking and the ways it's highly racialized. 184 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,410 So in twenty nineteen ninety percent of illegal walking tickets in New York 185 00:21:47,410 --> 00:21:52,630 City were issued to black and Hispanic people before he was shot in Ferguson, 186 00:21:52,630 --> 00:21:58,350 Missouri. Michael Brown was stopped for allegedly jaywalking. 187 00:21:58,350 --> 00:22:08,190 The journalist Michael Sokoloff shared this memory in the summer of wants to be stopped by the police for cycling to flamboyantly. 188 00:22:08,190 --> 00:22:12,870 And then we can go in the U.K. to discipline disability activists who have really 189 00:22:12,870 --> 00:22:17,100 been sharing their concerns for several years about the dangers of shared space, 190 00:22:17,100 --> 00:22:21,340 particularly those who are visually impaired. 191 00:22:21,340 --> 00:22:31,510 Now, the many positive steps in making visible the experiences of more, I guess, more marginalised groups in transport planning processes. 192 00:22:31,510 --> 00:22:36,190 So this is the new five year strategy for living streets in the UK. 193 00:22:36,190 --> 00:22:43,780 And they're very clear about their commitment to engaging with what they term, all walks of life and the promotion, walking the streets for everyone. 194 00:22:43,780 --> 00:22:50,260 And this is great. And then if you go across to the US, the work of the UN token and collective, 195 00:22:50,260 --> 00:22:54,820 they address concerns with justice and equity in the transport planning process, 196 00:22:54,820 --> 00:23:02,620 and they focus specifically on mobility, justice, and they understand this is how power and inequality shape mobility's. 197 00:23:02,620 --> 00:23:06,670 In addition to how other actors, such as the state government control mobility. 198 00:23:06,670 --> 00:23:13,570 And I think this is really a really important point. And so in the context of the pandemic, 199 00:23:13,570 --> 00:23:19,930 they say that for those of us with the privilege to choose physical immobility or those have the privilege to choose 200 00:23:19,930 --> 00:23:26,650 physical immobility must protect and uplift those in our communities who are continuing to be mobile mobility. 201 00:23:26,650 --> 00:23:31,030 Justice calls for us to see our lives as interdependent with the movement of all other 202 00:23:31,030 --> 00:23:36,130 people and to honour their stories and histories being rooted in a vision for mobility. 203 00:23:36,130 --> 00:23:41,290 Justice in this moment means embracing the collective responsibility that we all have to 204 00:23:41,290 --> 00:23:47,150 keep each other safe and to see mobility and immobility as an integral part of that. 205 00:23:47,150 --> 00:23:54,490 I guess I'll just finish by saying, you know, how do we move this thinking, this focussing, this focus on mobility, justice? 206 00:23:54,490 --> 00:23:57,360 How does that become more mainstream? 207 00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:04,720 And I guess if we're thinking about what lessons can be learnt from urban mobility and how we move from just focussing on the stuff, 208 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,950 the hardware, the infrastructure in the context of active travel. 209 00:24:08,950 --> 00:24:20,140 I think we really need to centre our differentiated experience says, and take more seriously our moving bodies, who we are and how we move matter. 210 00:24:20,140 --> 00:24:30,260 So I'm just I'll finish then. I'm just going to try and. 211 00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:34,790 Thanks very much indeed for those sorts, Jenny. 212 00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:44,240 And in that, you've actually spoken very much to some of the questions about inequality of the 213 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:53,300 endemic and inequalities of mobility which have been posed in in the chatter already. 214 00:24:53,300 --> 00:25:04,260 But I wanted to go straight to that, to the question, which is, is top of the list here about the 15 minute neighbourhood. 215 00:25:04,260 --> 00:25:09,290 And I'm sure you've got thoughts of that because, I mean, 216 00:25:09,290 --> 00:25:18,200 in some senses that the the idea of things being accessible is that is attractive to commuters, 217 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:29,120 at least that seems to based on inequality, more or less embedded in that 15 minutes, depending on how fast you walk. 218 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:34,690 So what do you make of the 15 minute neighbourhood, Jenny? 219 00:25:34,690 --> 00:25:41,550 I mean, I think it's a I mean, it's a it's a it's a nice idea. And in an ideal world, I think, you know, great. 220 00:25:41,550 --> 00:25:48,050 I think, again, it goes back to this question of who's included and excluded from such an idea, you know, 221 00:25:48,050 --> 00:25:56,800 assumes that your your you're able to afford to live in a particular place and have access to, you know, your place of employment. 222 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,240 We all know that, you know, a lot of people's commuting distance is getting greater and greater, 223 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:06,080 and particularly with some of the economic fallout of the pandemic. 224 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,690 You know, employment, unemployment is going up. So and then, you know, you mentioned Jim. 225 00:26:10,690 --> 00:26:21,180 Yeah. But it seems that you can maybe move in particular ways and, you know, it can assumes that sort of a. 226 00:26:21,180 --> 00:26:27,200 At temporality teet, a rhythm to your movement. That that makes a series of assumptions. 227 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:35,810 So I think in as an idea, I think it's an interesting one, but I think in practise it excludes a lot of different groups. 228 00:26:35,810 --> 00:26:43,220 And I know I know Tim has had some thoughts about. But this notion as well to get out. 229 00:26:43,220 --> 00:26:49,700 Come in. Yeah. I think Jenny is making a really important points. 230 00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:56,990 It is. It's a very static understanding of how life's unfolds. 231 00:26:56,990 --> 00:27:05,750 I've been working for the same employer for more than 10 years now, but that is also because of the relative privilege that I have with you. 232 00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:14,570 Working precarious jobs, temporary contracts is going to be very difficult to do that within fifteen minutes from from the house. 233 00:27:14,570 --> 00:27:19,040 So I think we need to be very, very careful with these assumptions. 234 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:29,270 I would also say that the notion of the 50 minutes neighbourhood of a 15 minute city is sort of something that has 235 00:27:29,270 --> 00:27:38,360 been bandied around in urban planning and time for decades is just a new way of thinking about self-contained. 236 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:43,130 And it's not mutually different as an idea from what in UK planning. 237 00:27:43,130 --> 00:27:49,580 Post Second World, where the new terms, which were also mentioned and self-contained with the idea, 238 00:27:49,580 --> 00:27:57,890 was that people were working and shopping and seeing their friends in the debateable place. 239 00:27:57,890 --> 00:28:05,480 What the middle new community that was being built and we've seen the same in France and Swedes in Sweden and the Netherlands. 240 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:10,730 And what all of these developments have done is become anything but self-contained, 241 00:28:10,730 --> 00:28:18,920 because what we see is people move a lot in and out because they work elsewhere, because they have their social networks elsewhere. 242 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:29,330 And so it's really it's a nice idea. But I think it's really more of a marketing concept and it works very nicely in a mythical context. 243 00:28:29,330 --> 00:28:35,930 But it defies the complexity of mobility in our everyday lives. 244 00:28:35,930 --> 00:28:54,180 Thank you. We've got a series of questions which are more orientated towards the the economics of urban mobility and the urban areas. 245 00:28:54,180 --> 00:28:59,420 What does this mean? The planning of sustainable transport in transition? 246 00:28:59,420 --> 00:29:10,400 And the question really is. Think with public transport revenues declining dramatically. 247 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:18,350 Public transport operators, local authorities have very little financial room to manoeuvre. 248 00:29:18,350 --> 00:29:21,230 And how should they be navigating now, 249 00:29:21,230 --> 00:29:33,940 particularly given that at the same time they're committed to reducing carbon emissions and that involves considerable investment as well? 250 00:29:33,940 --> 00:29:37,310 Yeah, it's a really difficult question. 251 00:29:37,310 --> 00:29:46,520 And I think more and more studies are now coming out that show what's actually mobility levels once a lockdown is. 252 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:51,740 And it's sort of bounced back quite significantly, quite easily. 253 00:29:51,740 --> 00:29:56,420 But the one thing that really, like continues left behind is public transport use. 254 00:29:56,420 --> 00:30:05,090 And I think we need this week there is something in The Guardian that was showing that attitudes towards 255 00:30:05,090 --> 00:30:11,510 public transport in this country could have been set back by about 20 years because of what's happening. 256 00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:17,600 And so it's not looking great. And I think what. 257 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:26,630 Will happen is that, well, we'll get new discussion about what we want from our public transport system and who should pay for that? 258 00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:40,020 Do we see it as a genuine public service? Or do we see it as something that needs to be sort of privately funded and and sell funding in that regards? 259 00:30:40,020 --> 00:30:46,730 And I don't know where these discussions are going. But I think we will have that discussion. 260 00:30:46,730 --> 00:30:53,460 And the interesting thing is it's not just public transport. It's the same with shared mobility. 261 00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:58,680 So car sharing. Bike sharing. The whole idea of mobility as a service. 262 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:09,340 I think a lot of all these things, quite optimistic ideas about how behaviours will change are sort of seriously at risk. 263 00:31:09,340 --> 00:31:14,580 And going forward, I think that relates more. 264 00:31:14,580 --> 00:31:20,100 Sorry. No, please. I was going to invite you for your thoughts on public transport, Jenny. 265 00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:25,890 Well, I think it relates to the point I'm making about taking seriously our bodies and how we move. 266 00:31:25,890 --> 00:31:34,380 You know, well, all of we've all adjusted our behaviour in terms of, you know, washing our hands hand sanitiser, you know, having to wear masks. 267 00:31:34,380 --> 00:31:39,900 And, you know, I had to take a taxi the other week. And I it's the first time I've taken a taxi. 268 00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:47,820 And I found it really, you know, quite a disconcerting experience saying when I first time I've been on a bus, you know, a few times now. 269 00:31:47,820 --> 00:31:54,900 But it's it's you know, how how are our habits, our bodily habits. 270 00:31:54,900 --> 00:32:03,690 And we need to sort connect those two conversations together of how, you know, what what is it about that is making you know, 271 00:32:03,690 --> 00:32:07,800 it was the RNC that had done some of this study that Tim was mentioning that was 272 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,540 reported in The Guardian about people are still going to keep using their cars. 273 00:32:12,540 --> 00:32:16,950 And it's about that safe space that the car being in the car protected from others. 274 00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:22,470 If you have the privilege of not having to take public transport and can move in these ways. 275 00:32:22,470 --> 00:32:25,580 And so there's this whole series of contradictions going on. 276 00:32:25,580 --> 00:32:34,780 And I think it's when you start to look at sort of micro scale encounters that you can link these things together a bit and think how are sort of. 277 00:32:34,780 --> 00:32:43,440 Yeah, how OP embodied habits and competences and how they have evolved through the pandemic and what that means for how we move. 278 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:51,360 And I think that needs to be a much stronger connexion between these two sides of the coin. 279 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:59,430 Jenny, if I can, can stick with you, because this is a question which Siddharta or posed one of several questions from Siddartha. 280 00:32:59,430 --> 00:33:14,040 Thank you for engaging so enthusiastically. But in your talk, Jay, you referred to the importance of political leadership. 281 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,690 And that, Siddharta, is question. Here is where the. 282 00:33:18,690 --> 00:33:25,860 Well, what types of democratic process might make a difference in this context? 283 00:33:25,860 --> 00:33:36,070 Do we have examples where the transformations in political structures have significantly transformed cities? 284 00:33:36,070 --> 00:33:42,030 I think I think I think it's the political will in a lot of places is there? 285 00:33:42,030 --> 00:33:48,780 But again, it's this. I think there's a there's a lot of disconnect. And I think also, you know, the the funding, the economics of these things. 286 00:33:48,780 --> 00:33:54,970 You know, although the government announced this massive debt, this big song and dance about, you know, 287 00:33:54,970 --> 00:34:01,300 all this money for walking and cycling, it's nothing compared to what's been invested in other schemes. 288 00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:06,460 Such I'm not going to mention which ones. But, you know, other skat, you know, this is a drop in the ocean. 289 00:34:06,460 --> 00:34:09,880 So I think the political will and leadership is there in a lot of cases. 290 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:17,510 But I think, again, it's I mean, Tim and a former colleague at TSG, Denver Nixon, and he might want to jump in here, 291 00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:22,750 have done quite a lot of work on grassroots organisations in walking and cycling. 292 00:34:22,750 --> 00:34:27,700 And I think there's there's a lot of fantastic work going on at grass roots level. 293 00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:32,710 So it's like, how does that link-up how do you upscale some of that work? 294 00:34:32,710 --> 00:34:35,500 Because that there's some there's some brilliant work going on. 295 00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:44,770 I don't know whether, Tim, you want to jump in here to say a bit about some of those schemes and how they potentially linked to broader schemes. 296 00:34:44,770 --> 00:34:53,590 Yeah. There's a lot of activity at grassroots level around cycling and walking, particularly cycling. 297 00:34:53,590 --> 00:35:02,410 And I would say much more in Latin America than in it than in Europe, but in U.K. And I think that has real potential. 298 00:35:02,410 --> 00:35:13,540 And many of these schemes and activities are also very democratic in the way they are organised and the way they and the way they function. 299 00:35:13,540 --> 00:35:18,640 But upscaling remains an issue. So it can't just be Bottom-Up. 300 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:24,400 There needs to be change Top-Down as well. And. 301 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:33,940 We've seen, at least in the U.K., a wave of citizen assembly initiatives and and I've been in a couple of them. 302 00:35:33,940 --> 00:35:38,680 First, there was actually quite sceptical. 303 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:48,310 But if you look at the national one that was held just before the lockdown started, actually it ran, I think maybe through some of it, 304 00:35:48,310 --> 00:35:56,740 some of them actually, they've come up with a set of very sensible recommendations for national policy. 305 00:35:56,740 --> 00:36:05,920 And I would say they're much more. I wouldn't use the word radical, but to denote what they're saying. 306 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,360 But they're much more forward thinking than most of the policy, even nuts. 307 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:15,880 A lot of the city level policy, it's not a panacea. 308 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,980 It's not the silver bullet that will that will bypass some of the issues. 309 00:36:20,980 --> 00:36:33,400 We have that decision. But they do show that if you take people Syria and you think really carefully about participation in decision making, 310 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:44,050 you can get two new sets of ideas and better policy. 311 00:36:44,050 --> 00:36:58,870 Now, both of you have spoken quite a lot already about the inequalities exposed by the pandemic and the inequality. 312 00:36:58,870 --> 00:37:07,300 And in some of are kind of framing or implicit in inequality in our framing of urban mobility, 313 00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:21,220 that the top two questions we've got in front of us here kind of try to probe that a bit more deeply and in particular suggesting that a 314 00:37:21,220 --> 00:37:31,180 lot of the the thinking about the implications of the pandemic from ability has been very much focussed on on middle class experiences. 315 00:37:31,180 --> 00:37:36,770 That means do you want to do either of you want to say a little bit more about now? 316 00:37:36,770 --> 00:37:45,130 Q I'm happy to to start this. I think that's that's the correct observation for a lot of the studies. 317 00:37:45,130 --> 00:37:54,010 And I think part of the issue is that many of the studies that have been done rely on Smuts on mobile phone data, 318 00:37:54,010 --> 00:38:01,150 where you know very little about who is owning the telephone. So you have to make assumptions. 319 00:38:01,150 --> 00:38:06,050 But if you do it in a sensible way, you can guess. 320 00:38:06,050 --> 00:38:14,800 And you can still draw some inferences about what is happening in lower income, the more disadvantaged groups. 321 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,300 There are a couple of studies that have unique access to unique data. 322 00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:24,320 And I know of one that's been submitted to and I think it was science this week. 323 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:30,940 This is sort of using data from from Columbia that looks really, really great. 324 00:38:30,940 --> 00:38:41,490 And we've been doing some work in some of the peripheral semi informal neighbourhoods in a magazine in Columbia. 325 00:38:41,490 --> 00:38:49,480 And it's a project with low income mothers. And we've used quantitative methods. 326 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,620 Basically, it's kind of a panel study using multiple quantitative methods. 327 00:38:53,620 --> 00:39:01,630 And each and what it shows is not hugely different from from what other studies have shown. 328 00:39:01,630 --> 00:39:10,740 The one interesting thing I would highlight is that at least this group of mothers, some of the key issues, 329 00:39:10,740 --> 00:39:16,930 some of the key concerns are about how can I get access to high quality food or food? 330 00:39:16,930 --> 00:39:27,760 Then I can feed my family work. And how can I look after and care for my extended family members who may live in other other addresses? 331 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,200 And I'm, strictly speaking, 332 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:37,540 officially not allowed to visit because the imagination of the government of what is a household is the people who live on one address. 333 00:39:37,540 --> 00:39:43,700 And they don't really think about households and extended family networks, 334 00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:51,700 sort of groups that care for one another in a slightly more complicated with a more complex geography. 335 00:39:51,700 --> 00:40:04,960 And the third thing is things around access to the church and being able to go to Mars because religion is such an important part of people's 336 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:15,080 spiritual wellbeing and also because the church is a very important place to meet your friends and undertake all kinds of social activities. 337 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:23,970 It has this very strong social. Well, I think what we see that there are we are certainly not the only ones who have these kinds of data. 338 00:40:23,970 --> 00:40:34,710 Because qualitative research with qualitative methods in these kinds of communities takes more time to be undertaken and to be analysed. 339 00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:44,010 It's not that it doesn't it doesn't get published as much as quickly as some of the studies that we have. 340 00:40:44,010 --> 00:40:50,300 We have seen published in recent weeks and months. 341 00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:58,820 Thanks to many news, thoughts from from from you, anything you want to add, Jenny, to those points? 342 00:40:58,820 --> 00:41:00,350 One about the data. 343 00:41:00,350 --> 00:41:08,850 And I think that, you know, there is an important point to make about the type of data that is informing a lot of the decisions that are being made. 344 00:41:08,850 --> 00:41:14,870 And, you know, if we think about data that might be, as Temp's talked about, co-produced with communities, 345 00:41:14,870 --> 00:41:19,460 you know, a lot of sort of more experiential qualitative dates are going back. 346 00:41:19,460 --> 00:41:24,410 And and there's some work that's been done and ethno methodology where they've where they focussed on, 347 00:41:24,410 --> 00:41:31,550 you know, people's you know, people's micro movements, how they might swerve in certain ways to avoid people. 348 00:41:31,550 --> 00:41:34,430 And, you know, that data takes time to acquire. 349 00:41:34,430 --> 00:41:41,700 And I think it's it it's it needs to have a bigger it needs to be more visible, have a bigger presence in some of these debates. 350 00:41:41,700 --> 00:41:47,810 So that relates to the data. But going back to this point about social exclusion, you know, 351 00:41:47,810 --> 00:41:58,040 women have been disproportionately affected by the pandemic in terms of caring responsibilities, and that cuts across multiple different settings. 352 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:06,350 So I think it's important that we don't think about, you know, active travel level of ability, whichever lens we're using in isolation. 353 00:42:06,350 --> 00:42:11,450 And we need to take account of these broader inequalities and sort of join up the dots, I think, 354 00:42:11,450 --> 00:42:20,090 rather than just focussing on his transport infrastructure, his his an infrastructure that's going to, you know, make social distancing easier. 355 00:42:20,090 --> 00:42:23,810 But how does this relate to broader structural issues? 356 00:42:23,810 --> 00:42:28,670 And I think that that's important about not focussing, you know, working in silos, 357 00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:38,300 but bringing these things together and knitting them together I think is important, particularly around issues of social exclusion. 358 00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:50,000 Thanks, and I'm definitely going to come back. Before we finish to the question of what sorts of things should we specifically be aiming to do? 359 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:57,830 Because so far, and perhaps not surprisingly, we've taken on a fairly critical tenor. 360 00:42:57,830 --> 00:43:08,930 And I think we might get a bit more critical now because where I'm going next, this is I'm a seminar on urban mobility. 361 00:43:08,930 --> 00:43:17,000 But it would be surprising if we didn't talk about aviation in the context of Konbit 19. 362 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:32,990 And in that chat, there was some some broad questions about the future of aviation, the viability of very large pieces of airport infrastructure. 363 00:43:32,990 --> 00:43:40,850 One might not even mention a third runway, but also much closer to home. 364 00:43:40,850 --> 00:43:55,910 The challenge for hyper mobile academics. And what we should be doing post pandemic in terms of aviation behaviour. 365 00:43:55,910 --> 00:44:02,000 Who wants to start? I'm gonna to have to you. 366 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:08,450 Okay. Let let me start with that and then let me start with the academic mobility. 367 00:44:08,450 --> 00:44:13,190 And there's nothing that is an important question. 368 00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:19,370 I think many people are now quite optimistic about where we will be travelling, much less. 369 00:44:19,370 --> 00:44:28,160 And we'll see lots of online conferences continuing once the pandemic is declared. 370 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:35,960 I have yet to see that because I think flying is really deeply embedded in how academia works. 371 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:41,940 It's really a central part of our practise. And. 372 00:44:41,940 --> 00:44:44,400 I think we'll see much more goodwill, 373 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:58,140 but we'll see significant return to flooding and some of the other questions that were raised around what to do with with airports. 374 00:44:58,140 --> 00:45:11,220 It's going to be very interesting. I think what we'll see happen is we'll see a really strong rationalisation of the service 375 00:45:11,220 --> 00:45:18,930 providers and we'll see both at the will see some of the traditional carriers disappear, 376 00:45:18,930 --> 00:45:26,680 the ones that were always already on the brink of of collapse. 377 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:36,630 And we'll see some of the low cost carriers disappear. I think that business model is really difficult to sustain going forward. 378 00:45:36,630 --> 00:45:43,680 So we'll see. We we'll probably see more fewer operators. 379 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:49,470 And that raises the question whether we needs as much airport capacity as we have. 380 00:45:49,470 --> 00:45:57,590 I think some airports will become stranded assets, which is maybe not that bad. 381 00:45:57,590 --> 00:46:04,320 From an environmental point of view. But if we think about transitions and if we think about just transitions, 382 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:11,970 then we'll have to think very carefully about what to do with the people who are dependent on these airports for their livelihoods, 383 00:46:11,970 --> 00:46:22,770 either directly because they work in the sector or we sort of indirectly because of the effects on the local local economy. 384 00:46:22,770 --> 00:46:29,180 I would not want to be a policymaker in Crowley, for instance, at the moment. 385 00:46:29,180 --> 00:46:37,140 That's a sort of area that we'll be hit very, very hard for for quite some time going forward. 386 00:46:37,140 --> 00:46:44,790 Now, at the same time, there's also an optimism about new ways of flying. 387 00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:54,620 I would call them more urban fly in the unmanned aerial vehicles, the Uber taxis, that kind of development. 388 00:46:54,620 --> 00:46:58,920 And I think we'll actually see more of that going on. 389 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:05,280 And before we act, I think the sense 20, 19, 390 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:13,380 I think almost 60 percent of the media requests that I received and received in my role was about how long it will 391 00:47:13,380 --> 00:47:23,760 take or how short it will be before we will be flying in in sort of Uber style taxis from one side to the other. 392 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:29,970 And this is a classic case of what in innovation studies are known as hype, disappointments, cyclists. 393 00:47:29,970 --> 00:47:34,280 These are technologies that get hyped very quickly, too. 394 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:42,990 We have year two to getting more capital invested in the developments and to change regulation. 395 00:47:42,990 --> 00:47:48,660 But what we'll see is that developments are unlikely to be able to keep up with the 396 00:47:48,660 --> 00:47:54,120 expectations because they've become so unrealistic that at some point the moment of deflation, 397 00:47:54,120 --> 00:48:07,020 deflation will will kick in. And if that doesn't end the development work, developments, words, you sort of continue in the way that some believe. 398 00:48:07,020 --> 00:48:12,120 Then I think we should still ask what is the point of this and who is benefiting from this? 399 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:21,390 And that brings us back to the question about inequality, because flying by with Uber is not going to be for the majority of people. 400 00:48:21,390 --> 00:48:25,260 It's not going to be for you and me. And I can't see that work. 401 00:48:25,260 --> 00:48:33,060 It will be for a select few who will be able to to benefit from these kinds of technologies. 402 00:48:33,060 --> 00:48:38,540 So I am quite critical about them. 403 00:48:38,540 --> 00:48:48,120 And I think we should not expect that they will dramatically change how urban mobility is function. 404 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:53,060 And just to add to the point on academic flying, I mean, I don't it is just academic flight. 405 00:48:53,060 --> 00:48:57,050 I think lots of other cities that rely on meeting up face to face. 406 00:48:57,050 --> 00:48:58,190 And I think, you know, 407 00:48:58,190 --> 00:49:08,750 the pandemic is shown in it's opened up spaces in play in terms of make the spaces available to people who wouldn't necessarily been able to it. 408 00:49:08,750 --> 00:49:14,440 You know, people attending this talk, for example, you know, across across the globe. 409 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:18,170 And I think, you know, there's been a lot of innovation around how events are run. 410 00:49:18,170 --> 00:49:22,160 But I think we still need to think quite creatively about that. You know what? 411 00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:29,310 What is an event? And I think, you know, there's a sort of I guess, again, going back to the body and the importance of the body where social beings, 412 00:49:29,310 --> 00:49:36,950 we we crave being what most people crave, being together and, you know, being in front of a screen and the fatigue sets in. 413 00:49:36,950 --> 00:49:48,190 So I I'm sort of I'm craving, you know, more innovation around how we make these events more sort of interactive and include stuff. 414 00:49:48,190 --> 00:49:54,300 Yeah. So I think there's a lot more to go. And I like TMI. 415 00:49:54,300 --> 00:50:01,940 I'm not sure the flying is going to go away as as as easily as some would necessarily hope. 416 00:50:01,940 --> 00:50:23,460 Yeah, interesting. I'm conscious of time here, and as I say, I wanted to end by asking a more normative question. 417 00:50:23,460 --> 00:50:28,960 A what? What should we do at this point? 418 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:34,210 And it's summed up quite well by the by Robert Hickman in his question. 419 00:50:34,210 --> 00:50:39,010 How would an equitable, low carbon response to coal would be different? 420 00:50:39,010 --> 00:50:51,190 What would it look like? So, I mean, you've fantastically exposed some of the news and complexity of thinking about mobility. 421 00:50:51,190 --> 00:50:58,810 But what do we do? 422 00:50:58,810 --> 00:51:05,900 But first, Jenny, I'm going to I'm going to. 423 00:51:05,900 --> 00:51:20,760 There's a range of things that need to be done, and that's I think you can rank them from from from the very practical to to the much more abstract. 424 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:27,510 And I'd prefer to start at that last because I think we need to have a fundamental and honest public debate about 425 00:51:27,510 --> 00:51:34,230 what we want from our transport systems because we want too many different things from them at the same time, 426 00:51:34,230 --> 00:51:44,430 because when historically transport planning was part of economic policy and it was about encouraging economic developments. 427 00:51:44,430 --> 00:51:50,640 And we see a lot of that still coming through. Now, that has been expanded over time. 428 00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:57,510 There's a lot of talk, of course, about the environmental aspects and the environmental externalities. 429 00:51:57,510 --> 00:52:05,370 And that's really important. And I mentioned sort of the role of transport in CO2 emissions. 430 00:52:05,370 --> 00:52:10,200 But I would say it at least over well over the last 20 years, 431 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:23,200 as soon as more and more attention being paid to the role of transport systems in in reinforcing and sometimes creating social inequalities. 432 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:30,530 And if you want policies that do all three of these. Well, good luck with finding them because they're not that many. 433 00:52:30,530 --> 00:52:38,780 That would really do that with sort of very strongly still thinking in terms of a win win situations. 434 00:52:38,780 --> 00:52:45,890 And we can't. We need to make some some some really hard choices about what we want from our transport systems. 435 00:52:45,890 --> 00:52:52,250 And then my view is we need to think we need to privilege the social in it and sort 436 00:52:52,250 --> 00:52:57,800 of the social dimension of the social inequality and the environmental aspects. 437 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:07,040 And that will mean that we will have to put in place policies that will reduce mobility, however difficult that is, 438 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:13,760 that we will have to do some of those and we'll have to have honest discussions that go beyond 439 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:20,090 thinking about transport and simply quantitative terms to think about qualities and think about, 440 00:53:20,090 --> 00:53:29,540 OK, what kinds of transport I really need it and when, for whom and where, and do that in a much more equitable way than we do. 441 00:53:29,540 --> 00:53:36,020 Not pleasant. So that's one ends. One set of things to conclude at the same time at the other ends. 442 00:53:36,020 --> 00:53:41,220 I think we need to. We need to be critical. 443 00:53:41,220 --> 00:53:53,700 We need to be careful not to put too much emphasis on weak prestige projects for changing mobility radically. 444 00:53:53,700 --> 00:53:59,760 Whether that is major bus, rapid transit corridors or metros. 445 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:10,060 Of course, they are important and they need to be developed. But we need to think much more about what is really happening at a grassroots level. 446 00:54:10,060 --> 00:54:20,310 And think about what we can do to change what we can do in terms of changing provision by not thinking everything through the street, 447 00:54:20,310 --> 00:54:26,760 through the states, but think about grassroots organisations that do all sorts of things. 448 00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:32,610 We need to think about how we imbeds and. 449 00:54:32,610 --> 00:54:38,640 Transports and developing skills into the education system. 450 00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:49,620 We need to think about so that, for instance, something like make cycling becomes much more than it already is part of how you grow up. 451 00:54:49,620 --> 00:54:54,870 And it becomes sort of really second nature for people. 452 00:54:54,870 --> 00:55:05,940 And we need to think about how we reallocates some of the priorities and the infrastructures that we already have, 453 00:55:05,940 --> 00:55:15,870 because there's not going to be much money for building large infrastructures and we'll have to do different things with what we currently have. 454 00:55:15,870 --> 00:55:27,050 And one thing that I think is actually proving to be really effective is to reallocate road space away from vehicles to other forms of transport. 455 00:55:27,050 --> 00:55:32,910 And so that so it's not a simple measure because it's politically very sensitive, 456 00:55:32,910 --> 00:55:41,220 but is not a measure that has to involve as much money as some of the big, shiny new projects. 457 00:55:41,220 --> 00:55:45,850 New developments. Thanks a lot. 458 00:55:45,850 --> 00:55:51,950 Tim, let me pass briefly to you. 459 00:55:51,950 --> 00:56:01,010 Jenny, and I'm one thing implicit in Robin's question here is a question about place. 460 00:56:01,010 --> 00:56:08,840 It's not just about practises and dynamics. It's about what places are like. 461 00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,350 Yeah. And I think, you know, that geography has a geography. 462 00:56:12,350 --> 00:56:14,690 Geography, of course, matters. 463 00:56:14,690 --> 00:56:24,530 And I think I mean, just to build on what Tim said, Rob's question to two points, and I think it's this joining up of the dots. 464 00:56:24,530 --> 00:56:30,050 And this isn't just academics tend. There's a lot of particular round walking. 465 00:56:30,050 --> 00:56:34,670 There's a lot of academic work on walking that is quite siloed, for example. 466 00:56:34,670 --> 00:56:39,230 And I'd like to see it joining up of those silos, but then not only just across academia. 467 00:56:39,230 --> 00:56:46,610 So we run out the CSU and exact course where we bring policymakers and practitioners into dialogue with academics. 468 00:56:46,610 --> 00:56:53,720 And this issue of translation is a really important one. How do you translate some of this rich work going on in academia? 469 00:56:53,720 --> 00:56:59,780 And this fantastic work going on in policy and practise? How does that translate and how does that work? 470 00:56:59,780 --> 00:57:03,860 How do you pull together these interfaces? And I think that's really important. 471 00:57:03,860 --> 00:57:10,550 And then just building on what Temas said about about research with, you know, looking at grassroots stuff. 472 00:57:10,550 --> 00:57:15,560 I think if we're going to send to questions of inequality and differential experiences, 473 00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:21,080 co-produced research with local communities is really, really important. 474 00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:29,180 And that produces very different types of data, which can then complement some of the more established and more traditional forms of data. 475 00:57:29,180 --> 00:57:34,910 So I think that's that's. I'll just finish with those two points. That's that's great. 476 00:57:34,910 --> 00:57:43,730 Thanks so much to Tim Schwann and Jenny Middleton. 477 00:57:43,730 --> 00:57:52,890 I bet that the impacts of Konbit 19 on urban mobility have been so dramatic. 478 00:57:52,890 --> 00:58:02,540 And we've we've all been observing them and interpreting them in in our own terms and through our own personal experiences. 479 00:58:02,540 --> 00:58:11,360 So it and it's been wonderful to have these incredibly informed and insightful perspectives to help 480 00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:18,380 us all to think through some of the implications of what's been going on and what might happen next. 481 00:58:18,380 --> 00:58:30,620 And as Tim has suggested, to really engage in some form of debate about what the future holds or should hold for urban mobility. 482 00:58:30,620 --> 00:58:48,470 So thank you all very much indeed. The next session in this series is with Professor Susan Jebb and. 483 00:58:48,470 --> 00:58:58,810 Charles Godfrey in conversation on rethinking diet, weight and health. 484 00:58:58,810 --> 00:59:02,490 Even after the Kobe 19 pandemic. 485 00:59:02,490 --> 00:59:13,810 And that is taking place next Thursday, the 19th of November at five p.m. And you're very welcome to join that and to register, 486 00:59:13,810 --> 00:59:22,420 please, apparently press the green button at the bottom of the screen. 487 00:59:22,420 --> 00:59:28,490 And also, of course, keep an eye out constantly on the Oxford Martin School's Web site, 488 00:59:28,490 --> 00:59:40,280 because there is a incredible wealth and variety of folks, not just in this areas, but on all sorts of topics. 489 00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:43,634 But thank you all very much for joining us this evening.