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Welcome to the Sixers along just great on this great day of the sporting life.

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Guess who we have to tell you a bit about their own selves when they come to be doing something about the presentations that they put do.

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And the general plan is they will each speak for 10 minutes, starting with Rachel Taylor,

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which is called Behind You and which really I'm for formally about 20 minutes of questions at the end of the session.

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We have all of that just going to move into it to take a little taste of what we finished and for the next starts.

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Kathleen. So without further ado, and it's my great pleasure to welcome Rachel Taylor from the Fisher Meredith sisters.

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Rachel, 10 minutes for Jules. Great.

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Good afternoon, everybody. So you're planning to stay at my sister Meredith, specialising in police and prison time?

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I'm going to take a sit down at least half this time and we'll say that it takes about 80% of my work.

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Basically the issues that my clients come to me about,

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and it's very common practice and the range of problems set things from police brutality, which is the.

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Kind of cases that you get to say things like assault country docs in custody arrest and such as malicious prosecution.

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So when the police have taken action against somebody, when they've seen them and it's come,

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they say this is a regulation for that this must be cautions.

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They can challenge the general abuse of power and issues of stop and search.

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Strip searches in particular they can take. Issues of discrimination, especially race discrimination, particularly toxic things.

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And retention of data. So, for example, things like information.

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It. Protest.

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And then things like. DNA fingerprinting, sampling, disclosure of data, particularly on the criminal records.

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Apply for a job of protecting Section six. Teaching with young people.

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Just trying to find more information of. Gaps and failures to investigate this particularly new documentary payment set made the fact that.

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Serious sexual assaults and certainly failing to provide information that can give rise to action on that particular season this season.

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And then it really is a really dynamic middle of the road changes all the time.

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The kinds of cases that we're dealing with changes all the time. I'd say and it's also very politically sensitive and socially reactive.

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So a good example of that would be the riots in 2007.

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Which one of the things? That is to be at least something that need to really as a very dynamic, very reactive environment.

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There's just a few cases which have really hit the headlines.

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My case is just so associated with things that you may have seen.

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Okay. So the kind of actions that I can take, the briefs I take when assisting your client are complaints, judicial review.

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So that's challenging. And I've seen this being a little more challenging to take your policy as being a meaningful civil action,

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which basically is suing the police and then things like inquests.

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The reason that that's a racket is talking about, actually. What I kind of do day to day.

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It's a vast range of activities. But basically, my responsibility is to advise and assist the client.

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Potential potential litigation. And a lot of the time my clients would be very vulnerable.

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So that time spent engaging with the clients and assisting them.

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A lot of the time they were putting in front of engagement. So it can be quite a difficult process, particularly if they've seen something.

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That's pretty much what I think I. So my task would be in constructing a case of taking evidence, forensic evidence, witness evidence.

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TV channels actually say that it's Manmohan Singh constructing the case,

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carrying out research because it is a very dynamic area of law is something that is falling all the time saying.

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Progressive concerns and research involved.

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And we have seen the fixation with the other signs, with the defendant, with the police saying engaging in the same negotiation with them,

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drafting documents, conducting court proceedings and working with barristers to move towards the trial.

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It's just current funding down there that's in brackets because it's kind of aside from that substantive work,

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but really it should be important underlined. I'm at the top because it's absolutely essential to ensuring that ongoing cases that you've seen.

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So again, so that's why I didn't stay in the office. And there's also quite a lot of work to do outside of the office.

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So a lot of that is campaigning. And the three groups that are listed that I've been particularly involved in, I do some media work.

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So. Interviews like the kind newspaper articles, comments and writing as well just contributed to the.

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So one of the groups I work for work with them is listed as Stop Arms Stuff, which is a coalition of lawyers,

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academics, young people, activists, basically trying to promote effective, accountable policing.

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And that's the main thing. So you can see Mr. Van Stopwatch aims to do that in a variety of different ways,

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whether it be like campaigning, media work and carrying out research, advocacy or actual litigation.

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One of the research papers. The rest.

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IDs. French.

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In the Evening Standard last year. God can command.

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And that's me and my friends. One of my weeks ago.

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Okay.

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So I'm just a little bit about how I can serve in a position to plan something that was so I studied Oxford, started nearly exactly ten years ago.

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I studied law and then went on to Alexi, where I studied masters in criminology.

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The reason for that was I wasn't sure whether I wanted to practice law or whether I wanted to engage more in this kind of work.

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I did come to the conclusion that I did have a love for the ball team and say, That's my game.

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That's beautiful. And then to finally see that, you need to become a solicitor,

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college of law and watching Solicitor Africa, which means I'm trying to understand growth.

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Audience. And in 2008, just after freshman MSE, I went to Jamaica with a sense of capital punishment studies and high risk management.

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That's great work. What I'm going to. With the cases.

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I know there's very little the official figures that say the 22.

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I make contact which I'm sure.

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The sky was considerably.

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I then went to Houston Winfrey where again I was mainly doing exclusively dating sorry that's I work that was making mitigation work so carrying out.

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Research investigating clients backgrounds in order to advocate for.

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I believe that. These are just a few of the organisations at the moment.

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You might as well just take this. Thank you very much.

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I have a few questions for Rachel in your head.

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A crucial moment in which I think you and I speak.

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Is everything all right, Jim? Please, Mr. Ness, as far as a girl's two weeks on the show, just as.

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Thanks in part to me. Yes. I'm going to do my presentation.

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I got thrown out first and then a bit about what what I do in my company chief executive.

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So it's just kind of that not and that's.

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And I want to do something about 53 that I think I should be doing it.

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First of all, as I get to where I am, I spent almost all my career working in the voluntary sector charities, working around criminal justice issues.

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I should say that I go through this as well, pretty much by mistake of having left university the first time around.

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I didn't have to go across to do things for a base.

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I got a job working for a national charity called Necro,

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which works with Logic and putting out a few million people risk appendix out to the likes of rats.

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Just in a straightforward administrative role.

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I play for a whole range of charities to work with, a lot of sensible worker charity and interviews and tackling cancer research.

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And then I go, the other one, I've really been doing it work around cancer research or health care,

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which when I'm doing fundraising I often think would be the easier choice anyway,

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because I went and said, What if I had a straightforward administrative role?

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I think it was that I really got interested in criminal justice.

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They already entered the field and slowly made my way through that communications department to a number of roles.

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And at the same time I did a masters in criminal justice policy at the school economics in Bletchley,

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and that really gave me a lot of credibility in terms of making more policy based roles for my next job,

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pretty much since I finished my master's, which I would kind of let me do.

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And then another one greatly that for me, straight away I went to be a senior policy officer working for a charity society.

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For some of you, my next relatively small campaigning organisation campaigning around central quality issues.

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And there I led that work on women in criminal justice system. What that meant in practical terms, that's what I was doing.

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It's a policy role and of course that's what tends to mean.

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It's a mixture of producing policy goals, which I see with reports based largely on existing evidence.

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Rather than doing primary research, they have a smaller primary subject matter which make policy recommendations.

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For government agencies. Agencies. And also had a solid campaigning angle to it,

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whether the media contact with politicians and policy makers and some campaigning public facing campaigning works.

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It was a real mixture of different elements of work around within the justice system.

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From there, I moved on again to another little charity called Criminal Justice Alliance,

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which represents a coalition of about 65 other criminal justice charities campaigning for a fairer and more effective criminal justice system.

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Where I got a similar sort of policy campaigning work with a slightly broad agreement to enforce immigration sentencing,

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but also starts from a very small organisation. It also involves really interesting things like payroll, finance, management, H.R.,

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all that sort of thing that you're working on, which ends up on some non-specialists contacts to try and get to.

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I did that for about four years trying to do organisation studies like that,

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so I could use a big incentive to fundraise and bring in people so they could do the payroll stuff.

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And since then, it's been three years. Another small charity for the Police Foundation, which is the Policing, Research and Development Organisation.

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And now as of next week, I'm chief executive of a charity called Restorative Justice Council.

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As the name suggests, this organisation that is focussed on restorative justice issues.

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I'm going to give my notes here because like I said, I've would been that for ten days and I don't forget anything really important to do so.

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So first of all,

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just the restorative justice counselling that we do and I'll tell you a bit about why I do that as chief executive of the charity as a whole.

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I've got to assume you all know a lot more restorative justice is in your backgrounds

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bringing together victims and offenders to try and repair their hometown.

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I think that's a really important time for the spread of restorative justice is something that is quite widespread.

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Support for all three possible policies on the Ministry of Justice would like to see more of it.

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That's quite a bit of evidence behind it now. But despite all that and quite a long term push to have more of it,

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it's very much with the justice system, despite evidence is hugely variable between different geographic.

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I think my criminal justice agencies do stories of justice. They often don't do it very well in some cases in the interest of justice.

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So I don't know if those are Justice Council.

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We just received some Ministry of Justice funding to do this is to try and set standards for what sort of justice,

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what does good restorative justice look like and how can we quality assured that information that's.

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This is government funding that presents all sorts of challenges for me and I've tried to go back.

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1516 stuff at the moment because we've also got a campaigning and lobbying so long have to take money from governments to work for them.

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On the other hand,

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the lobbying and everything is something that's quite common attention in the in the voluntary sector at the moment is quite straightforward because.

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All right, the ministers this is a big headline and it's going to be in that we undoubtedly at some points that tension will play out.

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And again, it's not unusual in the most sensitive beginning with that.

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And. In terms of what I do, it's a whole sort of mixture.

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Like I said, we've been there a fortnight.

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So most at the moment I trying to get people's names and that sort of thing, trying to work out some confusion.

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I guess my role is largely fit into three broad areas.

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The first bit I'm the most interesting bit is being the public face of the organisation, which is worrying in lots of ways.

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But it's my role in this and that's really about promoting restorative justice counsel and restorative justice,

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and that's through engaging stakeholder meetings with policymakers of the decision makers media, which is the government.

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I was on three counties, Radio six, and talking about the restorative justice policy days ago, which is every bit as silly as it sounds.

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I feel quite, quite involved. My research just didn't involve going to answer that.

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And this has been basically my question. I literally couldn't think of an answer to this.

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But there are there are more interesting bits of media.

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There's also speaking at events, conferences and a whole range of different bits of outward facing engagement.

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That's, I think, the most interesting bit. The second bit is about managing people primarily,

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and I manage a talented and committed team is almost all the work in the organisation and my job is to take credit for that.

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It's about making sure that what we want to get to do with gets delivered and

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that what we do as up to the very least some of those little bits and pieces.

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And the third bit, which is a really important part of my job,

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it's a really important part of senior management in the voluntary sector is something which I've had

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absolutely no training is the kind of organisational it's about making sure we work is mobilisation.

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Almost anyone who works in a senior position in the like the teaching planning organisation,

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management and fundraising, it's not obviously a political background,

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it's not something I very much about and it's but it is a really important part of my job and being able to do that at least a little bit gets done.

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That, I think, is a really important part of working in social sector.

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I'm fundraising. Like I said, it's important that activism actually organisation is going to survive and that's a big round up before I do now and

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how I go back and I think working in the voluntary sector is really interesting and challenging for lots of reasons.

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I really value the independence that it gives us.

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But the people point out that independence comes from being an outsider and not being able to access the things that you want.

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That information for research, whether that's access for some lobbying,

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campaigning purposes, and also, you know, working with those who didn't have any power.

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You can persuade people to do things. It's very rare that you can actually help some people find that.

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Some people like what we find that's outside the position, very challenging of people.

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Like I always found it very beneficial. I got other things to say about some of my great influences, such as The Flotilla,

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is that it involves a whole number of very different non specialist skills and all sorts of things from opposing campaigning media.

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Like I said, this mobilisation of veterans is something that is it's exactly what you tend to tell your

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heads about everything and where you have to be willing to let in new skills as you go along.

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And I think that I've only managed to get the job like both by being willing to take on different things as when I was in prison.

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So that's some very brief insight into an interesting career challenging, I think, interesting.

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Lastly, Celtic, a lot of the time we know I thought I would have been doing when I left university.

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It's often incredibly difficult to explain to people what I do too, but I'd recommend that I think nonetheless.

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Thank you very much. And that's because hour a half from the building service.

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Hello. And I think Trish is slightly differently. And heigh ho.

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And I suppose I'm. I'm a senior manager, business and executive.

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I see myself as a social worker, first and foremost. I would hope that this will become more relevant later.

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But what I want to do is actually look at some of the key concepts.

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A bit of a lens through the mind, as a world in mind as we head and actually try to work out how can we be true

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to what I think some of the key fundamental issues facing young people today.

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So when I was in university, which was a long time ago, I was a young person.

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And I think that's the premise that as whatever career you choose and you will choose many different views, you may.

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I suppose the one word of warning as you become the future leaders, I guess,

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is be true, too, that some of those fundamental values they started out with.

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And so I'm going to break this down a bit. So get some value spending so that we're playing.

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What does that mean to fans in about Scotland? Because obviously Scotland.

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And then I'm going to just have a guess what is going to come in the future.

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I got to do that in about 8 minutes. Okay. Youth offending what is youth is a basic concept is the really good thing.

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We know what it means. Do we? The age criminals funds busy in England is ten.

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And Scotland is eight. You need 14.

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I think in Scandinavia it's 15. That's in England and Wales and we say that's some 18 you are pulling out of.

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As interesting as 18. We know what is right and wrong, good and bad at 17 May not at 16 we know that's ten teenagers.

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When you think of some of the new logical research that's going on, our brains are developing until 25.

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So you guys this you look at an Instagram and you are going to take 25.

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Fantastic. You're working out.

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What is the world around you? Well, that's quite interesting.

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Well, so we're not quite sure what use is. We're not quite sure what a degree responsibility is, really.

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So then what happens?

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Then we say, okay, if you belong to some of the most disadvantaged areas socially, economically, then you have generational one generation of abuse.

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We are then going to put to you the same standard as if you had living parents, given background, etcetera, etcetera.

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Does that seem fair? Does that look?

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Offending. Hmm. I think offences come in and out of fashion.

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If you happen to be I know a member of the board in Dunkirk, for example, in his capture restaurant in Oxford.

201
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Are you likely to get arrested or are you going to open the next time? No idea.

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But if you did it for 17 and those on the edge of the box in the States, are you going to get arrested?

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I'd like to be facing the jury. It's these are intentionally trying to make you think, what is it we're trying to do?

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And justice for what's actually of him. Why are we when we say you've just this and when we're trying to make the world a better place?

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To what end? What is that mission? Scotland.

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Yes. And the reason I've been Scotland into this is and I trained as a lawyer in England,

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then I went to Scotland and I went telling you that I did my masters of it and drink and drive.

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And there was a guy who would kill Brendan to divorce the behaviour of a child.

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On the chart itself. Made a system that was more confident.

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By that I mean that it said the responsibility is not with the individual, it is with society.

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It is a political issue that I sensed. And that makes some interesting questions.

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Isn't it pandemic that China is kicking off its present aggressive behaviour?

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That is our responsibility. We are responsible for some of the stuff that happens on the Caribbean, Mexico, because it makes money globally anyway.

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It's that sense of I'm going to do that. I suppose within the state within I increasingly dislike this side's agenda with the states is shrinking.

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I think some of that and as John faces I face every day as well because there are some things

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are clearly not okay by anyone's definition irrespective if this group persuasion nicely.

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Q Brandon was also very interested in the voice of the child.

218
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But how do you articulate children who have who have been universally damaged, who have been repeatedly abused to give a voice?

219
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How do we do that?

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To encourage that this person who has been heard, repeated over and over again, can actually have the courage to say what he or she needs.

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These are thoughts that go through my mind when I manage a youth spending service.

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What else is also interesting to me is the fact that in England in particular, not Scotland.

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The criminal justice system is very, very difficult to understand.

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And we expect children to work out how to behave in court, the same standard we would expect of children with different issues.

225
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That is just not okay. The future then?

226
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Well. I do think we are in some very interesting times.

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Spending is actually reducing. We do have one of the safest countries in the world at youth crime.

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His Excellency 17, also tracked the victims of crime, often young people, which is often ignored.

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The same young people. Curious. So what is going on?

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No one knows. I mean, for me, one of the places of fuel that wouldn't be asked would be an instant mentioned.

231
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Why is youth crime reducing the speculation as to the incidents?

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It's speculation through social media. That's the word on the streets that actually more kids aren't using contacts and interaction over the net.

233
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But if that's the case, are they moving?

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Well, let's move on now. I'm on the outside. I haven't constantly told you why?

235
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That's not important, am I? It isn't. What is important is actually, from my perspective, the values that you're going to hold,

236
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whatever career you're going to choose and really think it through.

237
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And I've been able to see books and as young as I go and as a person.

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Crime and Punishment and and I come into this as something like this is.

239
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Do you understand? Do you really understand what it means when you have nowhere to go?

240
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Absolutely nowhere to go. A response that came to mind for every man must have somewhere to go.

241
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I would say social work. In particular gives an opportunity for child soldiers who want to go.

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Thank you very much. And next week is Betsy Decker.

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And now look at the word extensible.

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I'm the longest in the tooth person here. And expand the number of continents as well.

245
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Graduated from university in 1972. The first job was in 1971.

246
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As a researcher on. You're looking at drug free therapy communities on the Lower East Side of Manhattan.

247
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I was a criminologist and a crime, and I still am. And I can still consider myself a criminologist.

248
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So sort of. Pick up on the plea around values because I think.

249
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If I find any thread, I would last for three years.

250
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It is that thread. I'll talk about four different parts of my life which still exist.

251
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I'm an activist. Professor.

252
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I'm a researcher. I'm a policy person.

253
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And my current job. I'm not. To make room for cell phones that have evidence and insight for the mayor's office, for police.

254
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I've worked in. For large research.

255
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Think tanks. I have. For the first.

256
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I think Tony Blair. I work for police commissioners.

257
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I wrote five since I was in the metropolis.

258
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And now I'm working for a mayor for.

259
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My. The kinds of things that I've done in terms of both thinking about how criminology dovetails, activism and.

260
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Improvement because a lot of what I do now is I usually have a data on one hand and a two by four in the other hand.

261
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To push. Criminal justice system.

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And I can say that actually because I'm working in London, I'm actually running nationally and internationally.

263
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Police guys dealing. Justice Steele in talking about joined up justice.

264
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How you feeling? Very interesting place. Now I think on the cusp of doing some innovative start merging the.

265
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Benefits of thinking about victimisation. Different types of ways.

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So that they're not separate and that you have something like problem solving courts which

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enable you to not separate out justice as if it is only for victims or only about offending,

268
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only about society. In 1978, I founded a refuge for battered and.

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If anybody is up for any of my work on violence against women. That work was totally influenced by sitting around tables with.

270
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Women who are fleeing violence may. And that's where I learned my work around thinking about violence.

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It was first for the women themselves. And then looking at the criminological literature and finding that actually it's really strange.

272
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It was in the language that, first of all, privileged in those days.

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Stranger crime.

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And if anything has changed in a very sorry for three years of doing this work, we no longer assume that violence against women is a stranger based.

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That has changed. The other thing that I can say is things do change in your lifetime.

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And the whole concept of violence against women is now one of.

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No danger. Not stranger danger of excessive danger.

278
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Not. Some social worker. Who is rare.

279
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It's very, very rare. Just.

280
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So the kinds of careers that I had, I started doing this started with the therapeutic communities work, but I also did evaluation of.

281
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Mandatory drug loss in New York was my my big project.

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That was the quantitative researcher on that project and found that I would never, ever, ever in my entire life ever work for government.

283
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How? So sometimes you change your mind because actually you're better at being more orthodox.

284
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And one of the things that I decided to do was to go inside the belly of the beast.

285
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Had to be changed from within then. I miss the next 25 years.

286
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So the fact that I was in university Professor Isotonic versus.

287
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Okay. And much of that work was looking specifically at some violence against women, fear of crime.

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My concepts. Don't ask.

289
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So I spent the time trying to make sure bureaucrats never spoke about every.

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A significant part of my career was being the research director of the Economic and Social Research Council's Program on Violence,

291
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which was a five year research program in the UK with 20 projects across the UK looking to.

292
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Domestic violence and pregnancy violence in schools.

293
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Lots of different kinds of forms of violence. But that basically did for me, who is very much my own work, has faced women.

294
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This moves me into a different kind of strategic level with my own thinking.

295
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I think about lessons of research practitioners and policymakers, and actually that's when I changed.

296
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And it changed from that. But what I decided to do and maybe I could do that for a living.

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And that's when I. The decision to go. I applied for this job at the office nine.

298
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They hired me. That was that was a surprise. I was very surprised.

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So it was 18 months working in something called the Office of Public Service Reform, which was looking at general criminal justice improvement.

300
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And one of my projects there was a small project court system.

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Choose the whole work around satisfaction and satisfaction of victims time.

302
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And I began to realise that actually lots of different kinds of things that I

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was doing in terms of my own academic work really need to be translated into.

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And inside criminal justice. That's really why I sort of went I just thought.

305
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Six nights. I like to be dressed up.

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I can work in those areas where they never really thought I would be such a huge trouble maker.

307
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Really challenging or as radical as I might be in my own values, they somehow let me in.

308
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Why? And I'm sure that lots of my colleagues, when I joined the Mexican police service 18 months later, ten and a half years since I.

309
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My colleagues didn't ever remember that. I'm sure they. How long has it last?

310
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Because it was it's not something that's. Overly compatible with my.

311
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Politics. But yes, because I had done research with the New York City police in the seventies.

312
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I started my career by writing. Around squad cars were outside of Manhattan.

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And the work that I did in Worcester, Massachusetts,

314
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with the battered women's refuge while I was running a master's in justice course at the university.

315
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And I had many police officers, my students.

316
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So I have no problems working with police.

317
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When I came to the UK in 1982, I came as a refugee from sexual harassment.

318
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I had to leave the next day. Because my.

319
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Case challenged elections in the United States.

320
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The person who submitted or initially was one of the leaders of the.

321
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Last night. I was in university position and I was a sociology professor.

322
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Deciding not to. So when I came to the UK.

323
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I came with feminist credentials that.

324
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And therefore it had an ability to. To work in the kind of radical feminist community and to work in academic community and pass between the two.

325
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And in those days in the early eighties, there's quite a lot of tension coming from.

326
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So I think that combined my personal experience of what it's like to.

327
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Be a litigant in a fairly famous case. And the kind of work I've done.

328
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I take it through that thread that I ended up in ten, and that's one of the reasons why I was such a stubborn person.

329
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Ten and a half years in the place.

330
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And within that context was able to do, and it took ten and a half years to get some traction with some, I think, down research which has.

331
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It's robust, academically standing research that reveals.

332
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The police not to go backwards. Now.

333
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,130
It's very easy for that to happen. It takes less than a nanosecond.

334
00:38:30,830 --> 00:38:35,420
For that to happen. There are certain kinds of things to mistakes in the ground.

335
00:38:36,970 --> 00:38:45,080
Which I think is quite. Not that. Not that it has been solved.

336
00:38:45,530 --> 00:38:49,820
The only a month ago, I appeared on Channel four television breaking.

337
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,980
So the eight and a half years of research I a great.

338
00:38:55,940 --> 00:39:03,770
Now you will see in the next month, next month, there will be some things that are about to come out that will take that two years.

339
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,100
You have noticed, I'm told, for those of you who have been following them.

340
00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:16,149
Operation Yewtree. It's the language that's presented in court has changed.

341
00:39:16,150 --> 00:39:22,660
And that's four very famous trials which have just occurred, the most famous of which is currently going on, which is the Mount Everest case.

342
00:39:23,410 --> 00:39:29,540
I. Encourage you to think about the language that's being used in those four cases.

343
00:39:29,540 --> 00:39:35,040
And this fourth one, the language of exploitation. Is now explicit in the.

344
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I suggest that. And actually, I feel comfortable to say that, I think.

345
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So I'm at my my interest in the I'm long in the tooth life has been changed in this thread and that change it has always accompanied.

346
00:39:56,940 --> 00:40:01,040
Robust academic standards in terms of the challenges can actually.

347
00:40:02,420 --> 00:40:07,810
Every single institution I work for, including the universities, but also schools.

348
00:40:09,010 --> 00:40:16,590
So. And right on speaker.

349
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:21,030
We break your neck from a 19th century.

350
00:40:22,770 --> 00:40:29,090
Thanks. So I work for Tyson and I read a lot.

351
00:40:31,630 --> 00:40:37,870
I think a lot of people know more or less than it does the the legend of its origin.

352
00:40:37,870 --> 00:40:44,810
Is that a British. Honestly, his way to work with the Portuguese students have been arrested.

353
00:40:47,170 --> 00:40:52,150
Everybody loves this fruit. And the idea was to just sort of highlight.

354
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,270
And of course, now this. More than just news from this.

355
00:41:01,140 --> 00:41:08,640
And one point they are also looking at human rights issues generally and 50 years later is the largest.

356
00:41:10,980 --> 00:41:17,130
And a lot of what we end up doing is is on the basis of the research.

357
00:41:19,850 --> 00:41:25,480
So I'll say a few things about some of the pieces. To give a sense of.

358
00:41:27,210 --> 00:41:32,640
But of course, what I want to say about the research is that it's not just research for the sake of doing it.

359
00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:38,580
It's in order to meet the purpose of this agenda and change the framework as a human rights framework.

360
00:41:38,580 --> 00:41:42,940
So the idea is we've identified. Human rights violations.

361
00:41:43,180 --> 00:41:52,740
We in the course of the research, we identify what think what things we think need to be changed and who has the power to make this change.

362
00:41:54,780 --> 00:41:59,070
And then we had recommendations. You see those changes, actually.

363
00:42:00,410 --> 00:42:05,660
That's the beginning of the process that involves a full host of work after work that might.

364
00:42:07,030 --> 00:42:11,740
Government officials fear changes in practice and calls with lawmakers.

365
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,420
For legal change. It might be good for us.

366
00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:24,910
Groups that work. It could mean a variety of other methods.

367
00:42:24,930 --> 00:42:31,100
But the idea behind the work is not just to document human rights violations, but to do.

368
00:42:36,030 --> 00:42:41,040
So the basic method is that one or more of us goes.

369
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And after having. By Francis.

370
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,720
The issues are we go and speak to people who are most directly affected by.

371
00:42:54,300 --> 00:43:01,490
And so a typical example of this. Yes, this group is conditions of detention.

372
00:43:01,610 --> 00:43:08,550
So the first thing that I didn't know was. So I was 26 years old.

373
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And expected the commission to talk to hundreds of.

374
00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:20,910
Talked to prison officials, did a whole bunch of interviews.

375
00:43:23,530 --> 00:43:27,350
Give me context. And I've been sort of walking into prisons and.

376
00:43:28,630 --> 00:43:31,770
Sitting down with individual. Getting there.

377
00:43:32,190 --> 00:43:38,690
There are accounts and there's a whole sort of mental series of questions about how do we actually spend?

378
00:43:40,350 --> 00:43:44,409
I'm curious. Two weeks training in Massachusetts.

379
00:43:44,410 --> 00:43:49,930
And it's very, very difficult. But of course, there's a set of protocols we have to.

380
00:43:50,990 --> 00:43:55,340
Things like the safety. Ensuring that.

381
00:43:55,340 --> 00:44:00,970
No. You are used to this.

382
00:44:02,010 --> 00:44:06,240
The context in which you're doing research, right? It does become fairly.

383
00:44:07,890 --> 00:44:11,520
Fairly pertinent. I needed an apartment. And the consequence.

384
00:44:15,250 --> 00:44:19,150
So we have to we have to take this on. It also means.

385
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:29,230
Some some interesting points about what? And I think that's also interesting this group because more and more.

386
00:44:29,740 --> 00:44:36,550
Human rights organisations are appreciating that as important as it is to get human accounts to the individual accounts.

387
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,270
That's not representative, of course, and especially.

388
00:44:44,970 --> 00:44:49,680
The individual fortunate student. Here is the toast to freedom.

389
00:44:50,070 --> 00:44:55,230
But rather. Patterns of discrimination or.

390
00:44:56,510 --> 00:45:00,020
Tackling inequity in other forms. We need something that's a little bit more.

391
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:10,350
So we're having to to explore a range of methods that that allows us to test the

392
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:19,730
reliability of what is produced by March 14 and through the use of testing.

393
00:45:21,550 --> 00:45:26,760
I think we're able to say that we were able to. Most of what we do is not fantastic.

394
00:45:28,730 --> 00:45:34,910
When you get really, really down to. My people in these situations, government officials or.

395
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:42,010
We're talking about. Of course it's always going to be a big that.

396
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,410
Privately least officials are telling us.

397
00:45:49,810 --> 00:45:57,220
Separate experiences, but we do need to be much more rigorous in how they do this as I think looking forward.

398
00:45:58,530 --> 00:46:02,310
In 19. I mean, how many?

399
00:46:03,710 --> 00:46:11,360
Sort of social science research methods to be able to look at things, whether it's.

400
00:46:13,210 --> 00:46:16,810
Criminal justice or any of the other kinds of human rights.

401
00:46:18,490 --> 00:46:29,220
And in particular. I'll say two words about all this, because before me, I'm.

402
00:46:30,010 --> 00:46:36,520
Department of man thinks about human rights. Public policy that is conducive to.

403
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:42,280
Respect for human rights, the promotion of. And so for we under.

404
00:46:42,990 --> 00:46:47,700
A particular research project. We're thinking about what human rights policies and what.

405
00:46:50,670 --> 00:46:53,820
How it is that the policy framework is.

406
00:46:54,770 --> 00:46:59,690
Not consistent with respect. So a couple of examples.

407
00:47:01,330 --> 00:47:07,300
The one thing that we're not seeing is the disconnect in in public policies.

408
00:47:08,340 --> 00:47:12,000
An example of thinking about some of the. Is it?

409
00:47:12,180 --> 00:47:17,460
It has been doing for a long time. What? Not to.

410
00:47:19,930 --> 00:47:26,420
And the combination. And. You just can't stop.

411
00:47:27,310 --> 00:47:31,030
Sort of faith based. This is not does not work.

412
00:47:32,230 --> 00:47:37,510
So the city of Vancouver, like ten years ago, was was not the most beautiful.

413
00:47:42,070 --> 00:47:46,620
Using Twitter and Facebook standards been systematically.

414
00:47:50,100 --> 00:47:53,710
A similar a similar disconnect in the U.S. policy.

415
00:47:53,850 --> 00:47:57,680
Is the Vatican thinking about future?

416
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:04,430
And then the how use as a major way way in my mother's.

417
00:48:06,730 --> 00:48:12,310
And this has been known for years that sex workers are particularly at risk.

418
00:48:15,180 --> 00:48:19,690
Instead of getting. When communism used to propagate.

419
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:29,290
The critical thing then is that we. Distribution comes three times.

420
00:48:31,020 --> 00:48:37,590
There's a whole series of very, very obvious steps taken that authorities, by and large accept.

421
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:47,290
Nevertheless New York City until about two weeks and four others, three other major U.S. cities, Cisco among them.

422
00:48:48,050 --> 00:48:55,070
These were used in the case of New York City, possession of arms as evidence of the crime of solicitation.

423
00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:01,570
Prostitution to sex. That was.

424
00:49:02,700 --> 00:49:06,060
Aides to people who engage in these activities not carrying.

425
00:49:06,580 --> 00:49:08,230
We're trying to get them to use.

426
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:29,350
Which is, I think is basically the way criminalisation is sort of the sharp and a series of other policy steps and practices that.

427
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:34,090
Then you can finally directly potentially. So we've been looking a lot at.

428
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,740
Sexuality. Things. Things to do with starting with same sex.

429
00:49:42,430 --> 00:49:46,819
And then thinking about. Other ones?

430
00:49:46,820 --> 00:49:50,280
Not necessarily. Or the way that.

431
00:49:50,820 --> 00:49:55,410
The systems. Social norms work to.

432
00:49:56,230 --> 00:50:00,220
Entrenched discrimination. Same sex sexual on the defensive.

433
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:06,590
States. This country did much better on that.

434
00:50:07,490 --> 00:50:16,720
And Europe in general was much better on that front. But. Some of the other areas of what we would regard.

435
00:50:18,950 --> 00:50:26,180
We're straight people. This. So the ability for us to marry you, wanting to have the kind of.

436
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:39,550
Two adoption rights. Amnesty's submitted third party amicus briefs.

437
00:50:41,750 --> 00:50:48,840
For human rights they deal with. Questions relating to this sort of stereotypical use.

438
00:50:50,140 --> 00:50:53,690
What about is to. What policy.

439
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,220
And also what the intended consequence. For.

440
00:51:02,900 --> 00:51:07,190
But those findings. So in one case, and I'll mention the Wall Street.

441
00:51:08,150 --> 00:51:12,460
A. The kid was a teenager.

442
00:51:13,460 --> 00:51:17,150
He's living with two parents, same sex couple.

443
00:51:22,970 --> 00:51:26,100
He wants to adopt the second. He wants the second.

444
00:51:30,270 --> 00:51:35,010
And the social worker. Everybody's this.

445
00:51:36,410 --> 00:51:43,810
But Austrian Law 101. And so there's there's this whole sort of.

446
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:49,210
Legal framework. So sort of essentially.

447
00:51:50,100 --> 00:51:55,050
What? This family. So. Free to do so.

448
00:51:55,860 --> 00:51:59,790
That is sort of, I think. Not criminal that's floating.

449
00:51:59,790 --> 00:52:06,300
It's. Picture of the crowd at the sharp and the lights used by other.

450
00:52:08,970 --> 00:52:15,820
Enforce and entrenched discipline. Right.

451
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:22,140
Well, that's been absolutely fascinating. We've now got 20 minutes for questions and discussion.

452
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:27,160
And please continue that. So the floor is open.

453
00:52:27,190 --> 00:52:30,600
I've been asked by a junior who is doing the recording of this session because we're

454
00:52:31,530 --> 00:52:36,010
going to repeat everyone's question so that he gets on this machine from here.

455
00:52:36,690 --> 00:52:40,480
So when you see myself doing that is on previous speakers, the stupidity needed.

456
00:52:40,500 --> 00:52:45,489
I mean, the question to be attempted. Okay.

457
00:52:45,490 --> 00:52:48,780
So the question, Betsy, is in terms of the various things that you've done in these drug tests,

458
00:52:48,820 --> 00:52:52,210
of which of those do you think have the most impact and why?

459
00:52:54,190 --> 00:53:00,500
Well, I think. The place where I've had the most impact is the refugee matters with.

460
00:53:03,590 --> 00:53:07,999
Massachusetts is 28 years old as an agency.

461
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:14,389
It still. Its service to women and children in central Massachusetts.

462
00:53:14,390 --> 00:53:17,930
So that's real. That's tangible.

463
00:53:18,590 --> 00:53:24,379
Yes, I think I mean, so I go first to people's do I did I have I made people's lives better.

464
00:53:24,380 --> 00:53:28,610
And I think probably that. Here to suggest it.

465
00:53:29,390 --> 00:53:32,690
28 years later, it's still in operation.

466
00:53:34,660 --> 00:53:45,520
Other places where I think I made some tangible benefits probably in terms of the discourse around violence against women.

467
00:53:47,550 --> 00:53:52,740
I think the intrusions. Intrusions did change or challenge criminology.

468
00:53:54,180 --> 00:53:57,710
In. 1985. And that did make.

469
00:53:58,550 --> 00:54:06,810
An impact. I wasn't the only person that was saying those things, but I think it did challenge traditional.

470
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:15,030
This year is the 30th anniversary of the Women in Crime Division of the American Society of Criminology.

471
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:19,810
Announced the founding of. So that is another tangible benefit to.

472
00:54:20,570 --> 00:54:23,950
Just and others. I've got.

473
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,020
I think the confidence stuff we've done and John has had.

474
00:54:30,570 --> 00:54:35,520
International impact of the current discourse around legitimacy and seeking justice.

475
00:54:35,610 --> 00:54:45,760
So that must be a good one. And the rape stuff, which is just on the cusp of being published, is dynamite, and that is very good.

476
00:54:45,770 --> 00:54:50,140
So that's a legacy too. And I can probably name many others, but I think I've kind of.

477
00:54:51,250 --> 00:55:04,740
My. So the question is if we get it right, do you have any tips on someone who is doing sexual advocacy work on campus?

478
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:09,450
And what do you think the best techniques for getting people to say this is to change around these questions?

479
00:55:09,990 --> 00:55:11,100
I will answer this question,

480
00:55:11,100 --> 00:55:18,630
but I also think the panellists probably also have quite a lot of experience around having to manage stubborn institutions.

481
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:29,720
I've done all of the above. I have been totally unreasonable at times, and then I have tried to be as recent as possible.

482
00:55:36,350 --> 00:55:40,770
I think what's tried my patients the most in the last ten and a half years the has.

483
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,850
And before that I also engaged my own university.

484
00:55:48,010 --> 00:55:52,810
The first university was not. How they were doing.

485
00:55:53,510 --> 00:55:57,660
So badly. What the evidence says now.

486
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:05,240
I think there's a lot of evidence to like what I do now is I go in with this is what the research says is what the evidence says.

487
00:56:05,450 --> 00:56:09,750
It is insurmountable. This is what it is.

488
00:56:10,350 --> 00:56:22,540
And your policy is over here. And this is over here. And so I the way that I worked the that was to be I think I'm doing patient and impatience.

489
00:56:24,050 --> 00:56:34,980
I continuously. So that enabled them to see that they were not performing very well with great.

490
00:56:37,060 --> 00:56:44,430
Very well. And also some countries that we are now, I think we have a consensus of government.

491
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:51,190
In the treatment of rape allegations. I compare it to the charity.

492
00:56:53,510 --> 00:56:57,559
I don't think that they they thought there was some fixes.

493
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:06,960
But now we're actually to. And basically saying that as a break was decriminalised was a way.

494
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:16,240
People tend to think a bit differently. And I can talk to you later about the evidence base, the evidence bases, the.

495
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:24,710
Alcoholism and drug abuse is. Background 43.

496
00:57:26,140 --> 00:57:29,379
Youth is also background reporting of rape. Domestic violence.

497
00:57:29,380 --> 00:57:35,430
Mental health issues. All rights. You need to think differently about.

498
00:57:36,950 --> 00:57:42,640
Manage that. I'm talking specifically, but I'm sure file with the palace.

499
00:57:42,650 --> 00:57:46,940
It has to do with conditions. It don't want to hear what the evidence says.

500
00:57:47,390 --> 00:57:56,270
And it's those kinds of negotiations that are sometimes are done with patients and sometimes should be done without without patients.

501
00:57:56,540 --> 00:58:03,980
There were times when I would be on the other side of outside the home office with the megaphone during the time when we were.

502
00:58:05,220 --> 00:58:11,120
On the streets around, changing the law of homicide and provocation during the Alawite case.

503
00:58:11,130 --> 00:58:19,220
And then I put on a hat and sneak upstairs in the halls of justice, sit in very quietly and listen to the case and then and go back out.

504
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:22,980
Here we are, I. So that to me is the epitome of the way I've left.

505
00:58:23,070 --> 00:58:27,420
I've lived my life. Basically, when I when I shouted at which I was shouting.

506
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:32,650
But when I would sit as a chameleon in a place, I would also.

507
00:58:32,830 --> 00:58:40,870
I have heard things in rooms and in places at the highest level that I never thought I would ever meet.

508
00:58:41,290 --> 00:58:51,580
So all of that information taught me how to challenge institutions in as many different ways as possible because they don't change.

509
00:58:53,450 --> 00:58:56,710
Not a more organisation must be forced.

510
00:58:57,610 --> 00:59:02,250
Jim James from. The same goes for I mean.

511
00:59:05,510 --> 00:59:10,310
I think personally it's not been easy to assess the situation.

512
00:59:11,740 --> 00:59:16,990
And why what to do to get your message across.

513
00:59:18,010 --> 00:59:21,880
And it can be. And also, try not to compromise your own values too much,

514
00:59:22,150 --> 00:59:28,180
because there are going to be times when actually what is more important is the outcome we want to achieve.

515
00:59:28,870 --> 00:59:37,870
Well, you're in back here and there is without doubt, whatever, whether you go into policy, whether you go into this, where are you going to go?

516
00:59:38,260 --> 00:59:46,570
Do you have to compromise? I think the moment that is something is better than an overnight and a month less experience, I would say.

517
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:52,990
Yes. The and realism that you have to compromise and it doesn't happen overnight.

518
00:59:53,380 --> 01:00:04,680
Patience is a good bet. It just doesn't. So yeah, the consensus seems to be on this in the sense this the choice is going to be yours.

519
01:00:05,220 --> 01:00:11,670
Where do you think you're going to get a better outcome? Just Yeah, I do know that.

520
01:00:11,940 --> 01:00:17,670
And as I mentioned by myself, I one of the things that I mean, but mostly in terms of centrists, this is a good thing, huh?

521
01:00:18,130 --> 01:00:21,370
Yeah, I see that on the basis of looking into institutions, you can.

522
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:27,200
Whatever the cause is, you can believe it's about persuasion. And I think that's one of the most persuasive criticisms.

523
01:00:27,740 --> 01:00:32,680
When I worked. He was literally right across the.

524
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:40,510
FEY Well, I guess it would say that you're sensing that the megaphone outside the building where you get sort of blocking work in the corridors,

525
01:00:40,630 --> 01:00:47,260
I think it is horses for courses. But I think some of the things where I feel the sort of work I've done,

526
01:00:47,260 --> 01:00:50,840
I think the most important is actually changing practical things, which the business is.

527
01:00:51,890 --> 01:00:56,540
It's actually been more peaceful behind closed doors.

528
01:00:56,600 --> 01:01:00,480
We always kind of get into lines doesn't always appropriates the wisdom of it sometimes

529
01:01:00,490 --> 01:01:04,940
and you've got to get some shot together and make it faster just to get a sense of.

530
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:12,490
You know, I mean, I would definitely agree on the retailers to which.

531
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:21,689
The reason why I do what I do is also doing a campaigning around the edges as well.

532
01:01:21,690 --> 01:01:25,670
Because one of the great things about law is that. This decision.

533
01:01:30,180 --> 01:01:34,080
That's also much of the types of thinking in this concept.

534
01:01:34,500 --> 01:01:39,750
Even if it's a simple for you, make scale. Doctors know not to change any kind of behaviours.

535
01:01:40,260 --> 01:01:45,450
And that's why the company thinks it's important.

536
01:01:45,890 --> 01:01:49,200
Why? Well, I mean, the work that.

537
01:01:50,060 --> 01:01:54,430
Leaders and stopwatch. And we do try to kind of take every time to debate.

538
01:01:55,130 --> 01:02:01,030
So working with individual police forces, also maintaining independence so that we can.

539
01:02:01,890 --> 01:02:07,020
So that we retain our integrity from a position in the media.

540
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:12,450
Thank you to research analyst engagement integration as well so.

541
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:21,730
Every option available to make your voice heard. Related.

542
01:02:23,300 --> 01:02:27,570
Not so much about. Internal.

543
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:36,010
Well, it is about internal politics. It's also about ensuring that the work that the organisation is doing is reflecting the issues that.

544
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:43,560
And specifically, I'm thinking about these issues like race issues more generally.

545
01:02:44,730 --> 01:02:48,820
Where? Gender analysis is on this.

546
01:02:52,010 --> 01:02:55,670
Specific context of human rights work. It's very, very common to see.

547
01:02:56,530 --> 01:03:01,760
Gender this human rights analysis for everybody in the.

548
01:03:02,310 --> 01:03:06,110
Is. All the reasons you described.

549
01:03:08,230 --> 01:03:13,720
And that's that's that's that's, you know, it's I think groups like Amnesty.

550
01:03:15,750 --> 01:03:21,140
That has to do, in fact, with the framing of the staff and getting better.

551
01:03:23,380 --> 01:03:29,530
It forced themselves to be very cautious because this is an example of I think it's a.

552
01:03:30,540 --> 01:03:36,910
We're looking at. A slow series of slow. And we're looking at forced evictions.

553
01:03:41,340 --> 01:03:46,270
Police officers. And so those are very, very important issues.

554
01:03:46,780 --> 01:03:50,180
But we also were hearing a lot of. I'm doing this.

555
01:03:51,100 --> 01:04:00,330
He's hearing from women. And part of the reason is actually.

556
01:04:02,100 --> 01:04:05,710
To to resolve which. Trees.

557
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:12,590
And so most of them. Harvey for various reasons.

558
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:20,600
Working long distances. It's going to. Now.

559
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:24,220
I guess I'm someone who has. Because even though that's.

560
01:04:24,950 --> 01:04:33,140
It's a very it was great. Moment for us to be talking about the services changes is critically important to.

561
01:04:33,580 --> 01:04:38,590
Articulate. It's also not precisely everything I'm trying to do.

562
01:04:39,070 --> 01:04:47,730
It can't be that everything. There has to be a lot more than that.

563
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:52,090
So. I think there's a lot of internal advocacy.

564
01:04:53,970 --> 01:05:00,310
Particularly in a more realistic way, whatever the. Due to start somewhere.

565
01:05:00,380 --> 01:05:12,090
I think there is a. The question, if you if people come in graduate school nowadays, what's the best way they can get into the organisation.

566
01:05:12,090 --> 01:05:17,370
The sorts of groups they tend to get the organisations in which. I was just going to advertise.

567
01:05:17,370 --> 01:05:25,830
An internship that we're about to have will be available in the mayor's office for Policing and Crime.

568
01:05:26,340 --> 01:05:34,960
So if anybody's interested, trust me. It's it's a really difficult market at the moment.

569
01:05:35,060 --> 01:05:40,040
I think John's got some jobs. Yes.

570
01:05:40,220 --> 01:05:43,640
Giving away justice. Yeah. I think yeah.

571
01:05:43,730 --> 01:05:48,790
We have a government is convincing. I think that this is why it is.

572
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:53,550
Yeah. We were flooded by applications. It's a very competitive market.

573
01:05:53,620 --> 01:05:58,740
I think the big change that I've seen in the time that I've been in the work place is that when I left university,

574
01:05:59,070 --> 01:06:03,730
some good intentions for a lot of people. So went straight into the jobs and.

575
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:08,950
At my current event, we offer paid internships as a routine for.

576
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:16,630
4 to 6 months for many of them will be applying for what would be seen this entry level jobs.

577
01:06:16,870 --> 01:06:23,589
Most people have a number of pretty impressive internships on their CV, which does make them stand out.

578
01:06:23,590 --> 01:06:28,719
And it's not stellar requirements, but document one taking in a very competitive market that people look at.

579
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:34,209
And I've got no doubt that, well, I was offering when I started out wouldn't get me onto a shortlist by compressing

580
01:06:34,210 --> 01:06:38,770
the certifications we get from graduate students who don't volunteer on internships,

581
01:06:39,250 --> 01:06:42,700
those sorts of things. And that may be hugely unfair,

582
01:06:42,700 --> 01:06:50,980
which one little to have by offering one of the great incentives and making sure that is available to give them another opportunity to do that for.

583
01:06:51,050 --> 01:06:58,570
But it's a very competitive market and I think it's getting harder and harder to get people to see these sorts of relevant experience.

584
01:06:58,570 --> 01:07:02,500
And the only way to get that is it's doing searches.

585
01:07:02,770 --> 01:07:13,370
I'd hate to see them on paper when you see one. That's one of the few field lines that says, I need to make this decision.

586
01:07:13,370 --> 01:07:19,450
And really, I see that is a market as well because if, for example, you get your masters.

587
01:07:21,460 --> 01:07:24,640
There is no programs nationally.

588
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,790
That was fun. You to get onto the courts. So.

589
01:07:30,810 --> 01:07:34,500
Well, I'm looking for the candidate and I'm looking at senior management level.

590
01:07:34,500 --> 01:07:39,120
And if that happens, it's folks that you can do have serious business conversations with local.

591
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:53,100
So but you have to get your hands dirty. And that really means your friend and family dog and kids, the extended network that is mostly tiresome.

592
01:07:53,490 --> 01:07:56,730
So I'm sure the background will only lead you so far.

593
01:07:57,330 --> 01:08:03,860
What? Sick leave my perspective what needs to be and I'm actually what I'm saying is experience and

594
01:08:03,860 --> 01:08:09,130
when you get and in the state to here drinking more and more that combination of experience that

595
01:08:09,140 --> 01:08:15,770
this academic review is way going to be so there are so saisons and so take the box and where

596
01:08:15,770 --> 01:08:21,170
you could actually get paid to your poles and you can get your hands dirty and I mean quite.

597
01:08:21,650 --> 01:08:28,190
And that then can actually test out some of the serious underpinnings of this this work in practice since all very isolated

598
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:36,800
for the high food chain you can get more you can actually see why this is tennis and we can influence now as a system.

599
01:08:37,190 --> 01:08:41,960
And if I was going to be a graduate, I would be looking at some of the classic actions and teaching.

600
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:54,430
So sure. Because you just. But then it looks, as they say, it's safer to be assisted, obviously kind of technical things.

601
01:08:54,790 --> 01:09:10,980
To do so you would need. Do the. And then you do a training from time to year where you are saying as a suspect that you're involved with supervised.

602
01:09:11,820 --> 01:09:16,740
And it is a very difficult market at the moment, particularly in my area of law.

603
01:09:17,580 --> 01:09:23,260
Almost all of my clients are funded by Legal Aid, and many people are saying that.

604
01:09:25,330 --> 01:09:28,690
Being decimated. I can't speak for my team has made me very angry.

605
01:09:29,170 --> 01:09:32,530
And so it is a very difficult time at the moment.

606
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:37,880
But it is also. I do.

607
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:49,290
In terms of I'm thinking about things like. The experience is always good and it is difficult to say.

608
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:54,760
I mean, you can. Very, very, very capable.

609
01:09:54,810 --> 01:10:00,690
So I think, you know. Pursuant to the to achieve.

610
01:10:07,780 --> 01:10:13,840
Human rights is obviously a small. I think the good news is that it's gotten a lot bigger.

611
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:20,880
So I think the. It would be unlikely for somebody to start.

612
01:10:21,780 --> 01:10:25,840
Place like that. But with the size of.

613
01:10:26,940 --> 01:10:36,780
In my own department we're looking for. Research that was earlier.

614
01:10:37,630 --> 01:10:42,900
To be. Human rights researcher people are. Kinds of things that.

615
01:10:46,950 --> 01:10:50,760
Extremely strong, already. Extremely strong. Really good.

616
01:10:54,020 --> 01:10:58,970
Numerous languages. Well.

617
01:11:01,870 --> 01:11:07,990
And then the kind of the kind of formal training that is is generally useful.

618
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:13,570
And it's very useful in journalism. It's very useful. Specific criticisms.

619
01:11:20,900 --> 01:11:28,460
So I think the key, though, is to try to use use opportunities during.

620
01:11:34,740 --> 01:11:39,520
Training process to get. And then to seek out.

621
01:11:45,420 --> 01:11:52,510
If an organisation. Doing.

622
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:58,470
Doing this works long. To a place like this to.

623
01:11:59,770 --> 01:12:02,800
It's a bit of a it's a bit of a seamless thing to do.

624
01:12:05,590 --> 01:12:13,250
Occupation is Amnesty's richest. Sometimes at its most limited in both Asia and Oslo, where it's most needed.

625
01:12:15,300 --> 01:12:18,790
And the question is. I didn't do that.

626
01:12:19,450 --> 01:12:24,550
And part of the question in my litigation, my new way of generating change, I think litigation is a very.

627
01:12:25,620 --> 01:12:30,489
Piecemeal, expensive. Limited plan of generating change.

628
01:12:30,490 --> 01:12:36,320
I think there are a lot more much better is. Contrary to my own interests.

629
01:12:37,340 --> 01:12:44,360
No, I mean, I think we have to look to all the all the members of. Working with, with.

630
01:12:45,260 --> 01:12:52,740
National ends, working at the national level and working to the extent that international levers are useful using those as well.

631
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:56,930
So things like. The various security mechanisms.

632
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:01,830
The human rights. On a rotating basis.

633
01:13:03,620 --> 01:13:08,749
Those are moments since they're not enforceable. They do generate recommendations.

634
01:13:08,750 --> 01:13:12,610
They generate a certain amount of criticism among the different kinds.

635
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:17,450
Political process. Because this is a political party that's doing it.

636
01:13:18,610 --> 01:13:22,160
So these are moments to try to place some pressure.

637
01:13:23,210 --> 01:13:26,590
I'm on it. Some states don't care.

638
01:13:27,630 --> 01:13:32,080
The one state that often doesn't. International pressure is, in fact, background of this.

639
01:13:33,630 --> 01:13:37,800
United States. Right. So we have to use we have to think about different techniques.

640
01:13:41,050 --> 01:13:45,130
Even if these obviously large.

641
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:54,690
You still don't do the work. We can also think about smaller regional bodies do exist.

642
01:13:58,310 --> 01:14:03,590
Like different parts of the. And it's often more effective.

643
01:14:04,590 --> 01:14:15,060
With what feels to countries like peer to peer pressure. A dynamic where they will often say they do not feel that they're being lectured to.

644
01:14:18,470 --> 01:14:24,100
So I didn't find anything in. There's a critical component of.

645
01:14:25,190 --> 01:14:30,770
Mass mobilisation which which amnestied slightly better and other large human rights groups does.

646
01:14:31,890 --> 01:14:36,900
But. But but. But other under other kinds of organising.

647
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:43,840
So this is the idea of simply generating popular outrage, making it so.

648
01:14:44,330 --> 01:14:48,320
It becomes impossible to. Because.

649
01:14:48,340 --> 01:14:52,930
Because the people. Thank you.

650
01:14:53,150 --> 01:14:56,260
I that thanks. Lot of that. That's nice.

651
01:14:56,710 --> 01:15:01,330
But I guess I have to take the mix of for profit evidence and so I can just jump on.

652
01:15:02,980 --> 01:15:06,430
We've now 40 minutes in which we can continue this discussion.

653
01:15:06,700 --> 01:15:11,260
Over to you. Okay. Next door for that is something I don't you.