My experience with the circular economy comes kind of from that cradle to cradle idea that,
you know, instead of thinking about products and services in this kind of linear fashion way,
you extract something from Earth, you create something, you sell it to somebody, and then they ultimately dispose at end of life.
How can we create a system where the end product goes back to the beginning, kind of that circle of life ideas, not having enough work.
Climate change. Lending. Finance. Air shortages, fresh water and.
Large scale social disorder, antibiotic resistant diseases.
Education. Quantum computing.
In this episode,
we're talking about different business models and how some business models might be more appropriate and more fit for the future by the planet,
for people and for shareholders.
And later on, we're going to be talking to Charmaine Love, who was one of the people who brought B Corp movement to the U.K.
But before we do that, we I'm just sitting here with Michael Butler, who is not only one of the producers on the feature business podcast,
but also has a real interest in this area and has spent a lot of time thinking and reflecting on it.
So before we dive into a bit of a conversation, an introduction to some of the topics are going to be talking about today.
Might have. Would you give us a little background on you?
What what were you up to if we came to business school and what I guess sparked your interest in this area?
Yeah. So I used to work in the carbon offset space,
so it was an alternative business kind of looking at how we can use the forces of capitalism for environmental good.
And so we were protecting a big rainforest in the DRC and then using that to absorb carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.
And I've been quite interested in business school because I think for a lot of
us that are passionate about seeing kind of social and environmental justice,
there's a lack of understanding that that business is oftentimes the language and the catalyst for making that happen.
And so I came to business school to learn that language better. Mm hmm.
And while you've been here, what areas have you particularly kind of spent some time thinking and reflecting on in amongst all of the markets?
I was just reflecting on on that question this morning as I was coming in.
And the business school experience has been so scattered.
But I think where I've gotten to kind of ponder the most and have actually been in conversations
with other students who have deep backgrounds in particularly the circular economy,
but that we're getting to later and thinking about kind of bringing alternate ways of thinking in with alternate business models as well.
As we talk a lot about design thinking, I've really been enjoying that process.
Okay. And so for someone who is a lady, we would be doing Charmaine and we talk about we talk about because we talk about cycle economy.
One of the risks for those who are thinking about these subjects is that we use
a language which alienates those who aren't thinking about these subjects.
So give us a bit of a glossary. What are the what are the kind of what are the drivers, the B Corp movement?
What is wrong about, you know, in its simplest terms, what's wrong now?
That means that we need something like because. And when you think about because what are the kind of things we should be thinking about?
Yeah, brilliant. So I think in terms of the the sort of glossary about that B Corp movement kind of was birthed out of a frustration with
this idea that shareholder value is the primary purpose of businesses and that the business of business is business.
And that alone and it ignored the fact that businesses are out there.
There's this term externalities, right?
Businesses, by the very nature of, you know, producing widgets or whatever they're doing are putting carbon into the atmosphere,
are putting fertilisers into rivers that are going down and creating algae blooms.
And the B Corp movement is one amongst a kind of spectrum of kind of optimistic reiterations of capitalism, I would say.
Mm hmm. Kind of along the lines of, as I mentioned, the circular economy.
Conscious capitalism is another name that's kind of thrown around there.
Responsible business mutuality is one that's come out there.
But but really what they're all aiming for is holding businesses responsible for their actions, not only to shareholders, but also to stakeholders.
So anybody that is impacted from and the person kind of way down on,
they're producing the raw materials to the person that's ultimately going to be buying it.
So these are models which are not trying to wholesale chunk the baby out of the out with the bathwater,
but within the kind of capitalist tools that we have trying to rethink how they can be slightly restructured and rejigged.
And I guess for that, because they attack that through a kind of governance, a corporate governance perspective.
Was that kind of accurate? Yeah, exactly. Okay.
So I think. What's different about B corpse and kind of conscious capitalism from the charity sector is that the idea is financial sustainability.
So we're not continuing to go back to do gooders and philanthropists and saying, you know, please, out of the goodness of your heart,
give us this money so that we can do this cool project and help, you know, save these people or whatever.
It's I'm saying we we need to find sustainable mechanisms to make this the natural course.
So instead of kind of offsetting the bad that we do, just not doing that bad in the first place, right?
Right through the kind of, I guess, fundamentals of of what the business does.
Exactly. So when we think about these models and think about them kind of critically as as we should,
what are the some of the outstanding questions that should be in our mind when we're having these conversations, some of the outstanding questions.
So I think some of the things that have come up. A lot through the course of this MBA.
Ah, and you know, is it too little, too late?
And I think many of us have are wondering, you know, what is this just a drop in the bucket?
And are there ways to scale this such that all business is done differently,
or the businesses that are kind of radically changing their approach to to kind of have their impact expand much more,
more quickly and to kind of also how do we create continuity, right?
So Unilever is often used as an example of a business that's really trying to redefine the way that it does business.
And it, you know, it's famously switched to annual reporting and stuff like that.
But but still, some of its product lines are problematic in different parts of the world.
Right. And and so I think that leads into another question of, you know, to what degree do we hold people accountable?
And is there a process that we're allowing people to go through as they're developing and changing their business model?
I think for me there's also the question of environmental and social justice.
Ah, and it's often kind of one or the other. You're oftentimes a little bit more focussed on how do we reduce our carbon footprint or, you know,
reduce the plastic or whatever and and or kind of wholesale focus on how do we get people jobs that wouldn't otherwise get jobs or,
you know, how do we make sure that this is slavery free or whatever?
And I think for me, that's one of the other big questions is how to how do we bring consistency in in that part of the business as well?
So is is like, which I thought was quite interesting about these sort of, you know,
Unilever is often held up as the standard bearer for these types of movements mostly and should be said is not be corp but is looking at it.
Is there a sort of acknowledgement yet among cycles that none of these organisations
are going to be perfect and even the Beatles wouldn't all necessarily be perfect?
Like, you know, Ben and Jerry's is a B Corp, but it also sells ice cream, right.
You know, which is not, you know, absolutely love it and don't want to get rid of it, but is not something we should be using all the time.
Right. So is there a kind of acknowledgement that this is a process and we can't expect
all businesses to be perfect all the time and every time we think they are,
you know, they're then there's the kind of the latest scandal of one form or another.
So is there sort of a what standard we hold in to?
I guess what I'm asking and and within the circle of people that you speak to and debate these things with,
is there a sort of acknowledgement that it's okay to know that they're not going to be perfect immediately?
You know, I think it's I don't think there's a consensus thought on it.
I think there are a lot of kind of backseat drivers.
And it's really easy to kind of stand on the outside and say, you know, look, yeah, Ben and Jay's is flawed for these reasons.
And, you know, what about the sugar that goes into it? And what about obesity, all this stuff?
And it's much more difficult to be the man in the arena that is, you know,
trying to put out fires on all these fronts while shifting their fundamental business model and all that kind of stuff.
And I, I think one of the reasons that there's really not consensus is that.
We as consumers haven't really owned up to our demand driving business practices right now.
And I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that it's all on the consumer to pressure businesses into changing.
I think but I think it needs to be more of a conversation and it tends to be more binary.
I think a lot of critics I've met have kind of said, while, you know,
that if if there were businesses that I, I could buy from that I felt good about, I would.
Right. But they aren't. And so. So I just kind of do whatever.
And similarly on the businesses and they're saying people still buy ice cream.
And as you mentioned, I, I still I was as I was, you know,
pulling all nighters and writing my papers, I think I went through like three or four pints.
And so I think I think I suppose at this juncture, the consensus is there's a lot of criticism.
And my hope is that we move into a more nuanced conversation about what what is acceptable,
what is an acceptable process of transition for businesses and what's an acceptable process of transition for consumers as well.
You know, does are we expecting people to move from 0 to 60?
You know, so zero being they're using tonnes of plastic, they're flying, they're driving to,
you know, I cycle everywhere and I buy everything in bulk and like glass.
Right. Right. Or I grow myself, you know something? And, you know, how do we how do we create space for people to be in that continuum?
Hmm. That. That's my hope. And I. But I don't think that we're there.
Do you think that there's a kind of a fear of being accused of being a hypocrite,
which stops some businesses doing more or at least being more public about what they are doing than they might otherwise?
I think so. So in in the States, there's quite a few really big businesses that are pretty active in patenting technology.
And so I went to a presentation by Walmart actually a number of years ago about
how recycling for them is really just a matter of practicality and saving money,
which is in line with, you know, they're kind of save money, live better ethos.
But then they used up all of their old coat hangers for from, you know,
the really cheap coat hangers that you get clothes on and they recycle those once they break into the filling for their dog beds.
You know, so so it is baby steps like that. But I only heard about that in a kind of a smaller presentation setting because, you know,
it would be too off brand for them to really start talking about it and would, I think, draw more criticism for them.
And then it would be worth. Right. And and I think a lot of other companies are kind of caught in that space,
especially because the ones name brand because are, you know, kind of Patagonia, Ben and Jerry's method.
So that are fast moving consumer goods. And maybe there's a sense that a lot of the companies that are kind of public because are FMG's fast moving
consumer goods and there's a perception that okay it's easy for easy in quotes for them because you know,
there's a very clear supply chain and it we understand the steps that it's going to take for them to have an ethical business.
What do you do if you're an accounting firm? What do you do if you're a graphic designer?
I actually ran across a graphic designer in the UK that's a B Corp and that was really exciting because they were thinking about it.
Okay. Well, you know, a lot of what we do is on the Internet, how do we how do we go green with our Web hosting and what does that mean?
And, you know, is that different models of cool things like that.
And yeah, I don't think that I think there's not clarity in these more service oriented business on what that can look like,
because we're used to kind of tangible, tactile as consumers, at least.
And I think for a lot of. Certainly not wholesale, but I think for a lot of people,
the B Corp movement is about kind of putting a stake in the ground and saying this is what we believe in.
And then it kind of attracts a flock of like minded consumers.
And so it is a yeah, it's it's a label.
And so if your business isn't kind of one that. People interact with in that way and on a grocery store, store aisle.
Do you do you need that label is worthwhile? And I think that's also a conversation that's worth having.
Yeah. Brilliant. You've set us up fantastically to speak to Charmaine in a bit.
Thank you all so much for joining us today. We are here to talk about beagles, which is something I know you've dedicated a lot of your life to.
But before we do that,
I'd love if you maybe give us a bit of an introduction to you and your background and also how you came to be a business school as well.
Oh, excellent. Yes. So my name is Jeremy and Love. I feel like I've been floating around this business school for actually quite a long time.
So without doing a whole article sort of bio because it was the highlight actually pretty boring.
So I guess I'd describe myself as a bit of an entrepreneur.
So I had the great privilege of starting a business when I moved here to the UK from Toronto with John Elkington,
who's one of the sort of thought leaders around sustainability and systems innovation,
as well as Pamela Hartigan, who was the former director here at the school centre.
And we started this business called Volandes back in 2008, which was a really fun it is a really fun business which focuses on sort of systems change,
breakthrough innovation and a whole lot of really interesting dynamics that are happening in the world.
I stepped away from my CEO role a couple of years ago in order to support and really
be involved in sort of getting the B Corp movement up and going here in the UK,
which I'm excited to talk to you about today.
And the reason why we did that was actually one of the really important milestones for us at four months,
right when I was there was certifying as a B Corp and we were the second business in the UK to do that.
So I'm happy to share a little bit more about Scripps, but I hang out now at business school.
I spent my time in what I like to call a cocktail of different roles,
and the reason why I call it cocktail is actually there's a whole lot of
different roles that are not quite distinct or differentiated from one another.
They're actually really wonderful and intoxicating because they're all mixed together.
And actually there's a couple of really common themes through them. So B Corp is one of them and I chair B Lab UK.
I'm also on the board of B team here in the UK serving in advisory council to the ICW because I believe accountants
will save the world and I'm on an investment committee committee actually at the London Waste and Recycling Board,
which has a circular economy route map.
And then I spend time here as an entrepreneur in residence and general tours and circular economy and all sorts of other projects.
So I'm doing the conversation. We're also hoping to talk about the economy as well.
But just as a quick aside, just to kind of, I guess, shots out of France as well.
And John Abbington, for those who don't know and haven't come across that work before, it is awesome.
And so we were pulling some stuff in description so that people can follow up on that sort of jumping speak what's I mean,
one of you said joking before that, you know, for those who know, you really know and speak to this sort of extraordinary thing,
but there are maybe people who haven't come across it before.
And how do you describe that? You know, if you're breaking it down as most fundamentals, each describing it to a child, how would you describe it?
Because yeah, it's a really good question. And I'm trying to think about how I talk about what I do.
And it really speaks to my kids who are five and seven. Right. They're not quite tenured.
Yeah. And it's interesting. I actually recently asked them, you know, Hey boys, what do you think Mummy does for work?
And my son, one of my sons said, Well, Mummy you're, you're be the change.
And I think that's I mean I was really proud of that and I thought,
well that's a really great thing for my kids to think about how I spend my time when I'm not with them.
And I actually think that that boils down to actually a really interesting insight about the B Corp movement,
because one of the frames to the B Corp movement is the change.
And and I think the way that I would explain it a little bit more deeply to say that, you know, we all as people want to do good things.
And actually businesses are an organising feature that allow us to think about ways in which we can make good things happen.
And so I think the B Corp movement, which is, you know,
about businesses that have met a certification or a certain level and standard in terms of how they operate and
what they're in the business of doing are a great manifestation of that idea of we as people can be the change,
and actually businesses can be a vehicle by which that change can be expressed.
That's so awesome. And and one of the things that's kind of interesting about because is that sort of like part of a variety of different words,
which is used to describe, you know, a whole kind of panoply of responsible business paths like business shovelling, you know, etc., etc., etc.
How do you see them fitting into that kind of overarching, I guess, what is that range?
Yeah. So essentially I'm actually in the midst of a project right now which is looking at a movement of movements.
Right. And I wonder if that's kind of in the direction of.
Here. And and the movement of movements actually speaks to this idea that, as you say,
there's a lot of different organisations that are exploring new economic systems, new models,
new sort of social contracts,
like what is all this change that's happening in the world mean and how do we inspire surges and movements of people to engage in them?
And so I think, you know, A,
B Corp and the B Corp community kind of represents a one element of sort of this movement of of people who are using business as a force for good.
The community of B Corp are quite interesting because what they are are businesses that have, as I said,
met a very sort of high standard in terms of how they operate as well as what they're in the business of doing.
And they actually have to score 80 out of 200 to even be considered to becoming a B Corp.
And I know for a lot of listeners, 80 of 200, you know, that's not even that's not even 50%.
But actually, it's a really, really hard assessment and it's designed to be really, really hard.
You know, some of the things that are covered in the operational side of it are things like, you know, what's your governance like as a business?
How do you engage with your workers? How do you gauge with your local community what is your environmental footprint around you?
Think about environmental conservation through your business and as well as on the impact business model side.
So like what your businesses in the business doing at a strategic level like it's so interesting to look at what these different models are,
where businesses are actually creating new positive externalities through what they do.
The second step to becoming a B Corp as well is once you get that score of 88 or 200, you actually have to change your legal articles.
And that's a really important thing that I think is a key definition of of the B Corp community,
because actually it's it's embedding these principles really deeply into your DNA as a business.
And so I do think that, again, there's this whole incredibly vast movement of movements that is emerging.
And each of these movements have their own sort of, you know, elements that are kind of core to their model.
And I think that, again, this assessment and this legal change and the fact that it's sort of really engaging in this concept
of continuous improvement because you have to recertify to become a B Corp every couple of years.
You don't just do it once. You have to sort of be on this pathway to constantly be aware of the things that you can do to improve.
I think those are things that are kind of core to what the B Corp community is raising.
And just very quick questions anyone ever got to know?
Actually, I think not that I know, actually. I think I would know if they did.
Yeah, there's some people that have pretty high scores. Yeah. But again, it's set up to be a very, very sort of aspirational.
Right. Right. And so can you give us maybe a little bit of the history, you know, how did you.
One of the things I'm sort of I guess, you know,
really strikes a chord with me is both a very stringent but also a universal set of criteria and objective assessment.
Because my background is, is from social impact and thinking about measurement of different,
you know, the endless obsession with measuring outcomes between different charities and nonprofits.
And, you know, the idea of finding something that universally works across a bunch of different models.
Is it sort of like a pipe dream that the sector in my world thinks they're going to get cheaper?
Probably never will. And then suddenly, because someone on I know we have 200 things which applies to any business.
So how did you get to that point? Because that's I don't know. That was very interesting to me.
Well, to be clear, I mean, there is a lot like the assessment itself, but when you sign into the sort of the online assessment tool, which is,
you know, free and available for anybody to try, we will actually you know, you're asked a couple of dating questions upfront, right?
Skating questions are to gauge which version of the assessment is most appropriate for your business.
So I need to say it front. Like, you know, we're size and sector agnostic.
Like, you know, it doesn't really matter how big or small you are as a for profit business.
If you are interested in that journey, then we will be we will have an assessment that is is suited to you.
So I guess I would say it's not that it's one standard across the board.
I should say it is one standard.
It's just different assessments of, for example, how many people you have working with you, what region, what industry you're operating with.
Then in a how straightforward was that process of putting those criteria together?
Because I think often it's easy to really toss or not say little kind of minutiae, these kind of quite complicated free ones.
Yeah, well, there is really rock star standards team, right, that has been working on this for over ten years.
I mean, B Corp movement has been around sort of for a decade now.
And and I think what they again have embraced is this idea of continuous improvement.
And so every couple of years, new versions of the assessment come out and they are very much building on feedback that's collected.
Or the community. So when you're going through the assessment, you can actually say, here's a question that doesn't really make sense to me.
Or is there you know, are there reflections on what some of these questions are about and that feedback is
taken into account and then incorporated into the next round of developing the versions.
We also have a Standards Advisory Council which is made up of like world leaders around some of these topics, and they're involved in this process.
And so I want to kind of maybe talk through a couple of cases of kind of examples,
because one of these is sort of interesting is, you know, you could imagine B-class is becoming the city's.
The thought leaders or even just leaders in that particular field and bring along with them a kind of flock of others
who maybe don't themselves become because of that kind of transport and influence to grow with them as suppliers,
customers, etc. When someone becomes a people, they obviously start on this journey.
It's a continuous process. It isn't that kind of final destination.
What then happens to that competition in that business?
Do you start to collect that kind of data around what happens next?
Yeah, we are starting to collect some of that data and here in the UK we do a lot of surveys to understand the dynamics happening in the companies,
how we know, how are things going when they become part of the community.
I think the way I would like to answer that question is maybe a little bit around the sorts of
values that some of the big groups are able to capture once they are part of the community.
And what I get really excited about is the collaboration that starts happening between B Corp to find each other
because they have sort of a shared sense of right values and they kind of all come and made it through this process.
And it's kind of like that community of, again, shared values and respect and and trust for one another,
I think is a really great platform for for deeper, deeper levels of collaboration.
So I love it when I see that B Corp find each other and find ways of actually working together and as a collective or as a community.
So there are two more questions, both which I'm sure you get asked all the time, but I still want to ask you.
The first one is, can any business become a people?
Any business can be on a journey to become a B Corp.
I mean, the assessment is again available for anyone to go online and look at ways in which they can sort of benchmark themselves,
look at the questions that they're they're being presented to think about are these
things that they'd want to involve in their business and ultimately be on a journey.
But I mean, are there some types of business activities which would prevent one ever making the AC out of 100?
So I can't answer that question actually, because I think I know where you're going with that one.
Couple of years ago, there's this interesting thought leader in Canada.
His name's Paul Klein, and he wrote this really interesting piece.
And it was sort of back casting Exxon and it was saying, you know, excellent has had this big announcement in 2025 or 2030.
And it is it finally exited from sort of all this very heavy carbon and fossil fuel industries.
And the question you asked was, how do we get there?
I sort of then looked at what are the things that a company like Exxon would do in order to reach this sort of quite momentous achievement?
And there are a few things on that list, things like they hired a new CEO who had been with the EDF Environmental Defence Fund.
They sort of transitioning their, you know, petrol or gas stations into mobility stations.
They started issuing a new share class, which was about the social and environmental returns, and they became a B Corp.
And and I think what's interesting about that story is to say that that, you know, you almost don't want to ever say no.
The company can never become a big part because, you know, it's actually designed to be a tool to try and help businesses improve.
And I think, obviously, there are some industries out there that have, you know,
that are not necessarily creating positive externalities, don't necessarily have those elements today.
But actually, if they can use the assessment to be on a journey to improve their operations, to improve what they do and ultimately reach a point,
then I think we would embrace and celebrate the use of the assessment tool to get them there.
I love the hope and optimism that you approach that question with because,
I mean, you know, that's exactly the the the use case that I was looking for.
But I think that's fantastic if that's the way you approach it.
Well, and I should also say, I mean, I think it's one of the values that I find so exciting about the B Corp movement.
Actually exciting. And it is exciting, but it's what makes me feel so spirited and so connected to this movement.
And that's this idea that, you know, people standing for something, not against something.
Yeah. And actually, in a world where there's a lot of negativity, I think having something that's hopeful,
that's positive to focus on actually is really important direction of travel.
And it's not to say that we kind of ignore sort of the big challenges that are out there, the fear.
But it's actually to say that we we use the direction of travel that we want to move and something that's hopeful and positive of opportunity.
The word that I learned a couple of years ago,
that's kind of my mantra with this is this concept of heliotrope and heliotrope is a fancy sounding word,
but gardeners often know it because it comes from botany and it's a concept.
Helios is sun. The sun, yeah. Trapping is is turned towards.
And I just when I hear that word, I visualise. A field of sunflowers.
And I just I can imagine the blossoms, the flowers of that, some of those sunflowers just literally following the sun across the sky.
And and I think that that again, that that movement, that following of something that is light and full of positivity,
that heliotrope, which is what we see expressed in botany, I don't think we're that different as humans.
I think and I believe actually that we will grow stronger and taller and faster when we are motivated by things that are full of light and positivity.
Again, it's not to ignore the challenges and the fear and despair that's out there, but it's in step.
But it's to use the energy of positivity to help us find the direction of travel to go in.
And I have to say that that's what inspires me about the B Corp movement,
is that it reflects businesses and people that are operating within those businesses that are focussed on that hope, that solution, that positivity.
And so that's why that where Heliotrope has become important to me and I found that alive in the B Corp community, that's so cool.
Just jumping off that enthusiasm, you know, and sort of maybe thinking, you know, we do entrepreneur hat a bit.
If I, you know, were all wrapping up and being now, you know,
and then if I think about some of my friends who are going off to start their own businesses or even have already started their own business,
how quickly can you become a peak? You know, how much can you can you kind of go right out of the box, right?
This is how we're going to do business? Or is it something where once you've kind of made some profits, you know, got some customers,
you kind of think, oh, hang on, I'm not quite sure about the way I'm doing this right now.
I need to become bigger. At what point in the journey does it come?
And so to become a certified B Corp, you have to have been trading for at least a year.
And that is because actually the verification process to verify the things that
you're putting into your assessment actually need to have documented evidence.
And so, you know, it's important to know that that evidentiary process actually is in place.
And so, for example, if you say you have an employee handbook in your assessment about how you engage with your workers,
you know, there is a process by which certain of those questions are you need to submit evidence to show that your answers.
And so for some of those questions, they would be things like, you know, what is your vendor ledger?
You know, what has your turnover been? How much of your profit or your income has come from certain areas?
And so to have a year of trading is what you need in order to be able to verify some of those those elements.
Now that being said, what we've done in the UK is we recognise that there are so many businesses that are starting up and want to embed the
principles of being a B Corp kind of from from their inception and whether or not those are in your legal documents.
Again, if you want to become B Corp, you have to make this sort of legal change.
And actually, instead of changing it, why not start your business with them intact to begin with?
And, you know, if you're starting a business and you want to make sure you have excellent governance processes from the very start you're engaging,
you've got worker policies that are top notch. What we don't want to do is to turn businesses away when they're at that sort of inception stage.
So again, we've created this kind of status which we call pending B's,
which essentially means that you're doing everything that you would need to do to become a B Corp,
but you have to wait until that full year trading in order to be fully furnished.
Oh, very cool. Yeah. I think an interesting Segway might also into the circular economy around might be to
kind of touch on what are some of the different business models that people can adopt as
they're thinking about what what it could look like to embed B Corp principles in kind of
from inception like some of the things that we talked about in the circular economy class.
I don't know if that is. I did want to change gears and maybe like slightly switch hats for you.
So during the MBA year, this year you've taught courses like our economy and maybe you could just draw a
picture for us of how kind of big whoops and then circular economy linked together.
And also for those who aren't aware of the cycle economy, maybe take us through a little bit of what that means as well.
That's not the same question, but we're going to do it that way anyway. I love it.
Okay. So B Corp and Circular Economy, maybe I'll start with a little bit of what is the circular economy?
Part of me wants to like turn it over to you, because actually, I mean, I'd really love to hear what you took away.
Like what you picked up as a circular economy.
Yeah. For me, my. My experience with the circular economy comes kind of from that cradle to cradle idea that,
you know, instead of thinking about products and services in this kind of linear fashion way,
you extract something from materials from the earth, you create something, you sell it to somebody,
and then they ultimately dispose at end of life and it ends up in a landfill where it never decomposes.
And how can we create a system where the end product goes back to the beginning,
kind of that circular of our circle of life idea that kind of gets explored in like The Lion King.
Right. And I think that's really what the circular economy is trying to bring about in in a variety of different industries,
whether it's I think some of the big use cases are carpets.
But there's you can think about it in in a lot of different areas.
I think you're probably a little bit better off to speak about that.
And I would be oh, my gosh, I love that you mentioned The Lion King and now I'm kind of like kicking myself because we had so much fun in the past,
or at least I had fun in the class because we started it with music and every day we would
have like a new song to try and like get the energy up at 830 on a Thursday morning.
And I was trying to I tried a lot to think about what are relevant songs to the topic.
So like Hamilton rise up and I'm just, I'm like, oh my gosh, we totally should have played the circle of life.
I'm going to have to like add that to the course for next year, next year, first class and a big circle of like Elton John, I think.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Beautiful.
Cause I actually think that that phrase like the circle of light, actually, that is a really amazing way to describe it.
And you talked about moving from the linear to a more circular system.
And I think the references to some of the natural ecosystem approaches to this,
I think are all really kind of key elements to at least my understanding of what, you know, the circular economy is as well.
I have to say I learned a lot in the class and through the process around like, you know,
what the definitions are and also what the different implications and applications of those definitions.
And I think in my kind of couple of weeks since we finished the class in reflecting,
I think there are a few things that I really have risen to the top for me, and that is things like this is a systems change.
So you remember we talked about like macro maso nomics and like microeconomics that actually like the
systems that we need to to actually to change to to lead to a circular economy are hugely complex.
And I think there's a really interesting role for us to to support, which is around recognising the overall big systems change that needs to happen.
And then what are the steps that can start happening today to get us there?
So I think what was great was we heard from some entrepreneurs that are working in the space.
I mean Tristram from Toast Ale and what he's doing, he's also a B Corp.
So that's why I was kind of this nice little connection there, you know,
Toast Ale, which is taking bread that would otherwise be wasted and like great.
It's just a terrible story that he shared in terms of what happens to bread.
And instead he's sort of taking it and creating beer.
And I think I loved about Tristram and his sort of approach to this was he had this great line about if you're going to,
you know, if you want to change the world, you bathrobe better party and the people that are destroying it.
So I mean, he's also kind of pulling in the cultural element to, you know,
the example of of the model of of a sort of a circular kind of business where he's taking,
you know, things would otherwise go in a more linear fashion into a non optimal use case for those materials.
And he's creating a beer and, and he's infusing them that story almost with a,
a like a culture shift, which is about having fun by enjoying these things.
It's funny, I saw an advert on Instagram the other day, which was from Hotpoint.
He makes fridges and they have got a new campaign and a whole new kind of social account all about food waste.
And they've partnered with Jamie Oliver to create a bunch of recipes which are meant to use up your leftovers,
which is I thought was a really interesting kind of move by, you know,
big corporate to kind of say, okay, we're going to target this particular issue.
This is going to be all like social, but social conscience is really very, very interesting.
So when did so let's break this down a little bit.
Maybe if if I if I recycle and I try and use on my leftovers and I have a teacup and a water bottle that I take with me,
I'm engaging in the sector economy. Or does it do I need to be a business?
Does it go you know, how much of it is me as a consumer? How much of it is is the way that I run my business?
So I'm a big fan of concepts of both. And and I think that's actually how we have to really drive systems change it.
You know, I, I think there is a really important role for us as individuals, we can say.
That we can take. And we we need to be taken and we need to be taking them probably even more than just I mean, the cups and recycling are great,
but there's also other decisions we can make in our lives around what we're even choosing to buy, what we need, where we're buying it from.
So I think there is a really there's sort of a range of different ways in which we as
consumers can actually engage in principles of the systems views that we want to see.
But I do think, you know, there are a range of other entities that need to be taking active steps,
you know, and so those are private sector companies. You know, you you talk about one example.
I mean, I think the circular economy is almost like a really sort of expensive journey to be on.
And it's going to take us a long time to get there. So we need actually a whole lot of different sectors and industries involved.
So there's the role for the private sector. We spend a lot of time talking about investment,
like how are investors engaging in funding and fuelling sort of circular economy business models and then of course, the role of government.
So what are sort of the policy levers? So I guess I'd answer that question to say, like,
we need all adds to to help us shift to a systems change which would be embracing the principles of the circular economy and what.
And you know listeners at this point reasoning why you should just take class via the on the kind
of economy side on the economic side and maybe think about the investment and the government role.
What are some of the things that you see those two actors doing or not doing that you'd like them to do so?
So we talked a little bit about the circularity of it and the sort of, you know, it's it's fairly intuitive to understand, you know,
trying to return one product from where it starts back to where it begins and making sure that it doesn't go to landfill or going to waste.
But on the economic side and the system change side, what does that side of it look like?
If I can kind of disaggregate those two. Well, yeah. And maybe what I'd love to answer that by is talking about,
I think one of the interesting economic components and the forces that are in place, and that's employment.
And, you know, it's funny because I think what we're going to see is a real change in terms of the composition of jobs in the future.
I mean, I'm sure you guys have talked about mission and machine learning and AI in various of these podcasts.
And I think it's you know, it's important to recognise the impacts that those are going to have on jobs.
And jobs are a key part of the economy.
So I guess one of the things I'm really interested in is looking at if people are going to be losing some of the jobs in sectors that exist already,
like what are some of the new jobs that could emerge? And I actually think it's so interesting to kind of reignite the industry here in the U.K.
around key jobs that are going to be required to move us towards a circular economy.
You know, those are jobs that are you know, some of them exist today.
But actually, we should find ways to really dial them up. And there's a great report by BAP, which maybe we can include a hyperlink to it,
which talks about the millions of jobs that there are potential to create around the circular economy in Europe.
Those are, you know, very much aligned with some of the circular economy.
Business models are out there. So, you know, how do you extend the life of products?
How can you create like more of a maintenance and repair model?
How can you use products as a service like the jobs that will be opening up?
If we truly embraced the principles of circular economy as being kind of a defining part of our economic system, I think could be hugely powerful.
So I know I'm probably not answering that question exactly the way you were.
That's no, that's really interesting. But jobs, circular economy, jobs, I think could be an amazing way to to get the circular economy really adopted.
And and again, I think that's where there's a really interesting role for governments to think about.
You know, the industrial strategy and the recent industrial strategy that was launched last November,
I think it was there was a page 248 in that industrial strategy,
not not that I was looking specifically, but they actually talked about the circular economy in that in that you have page 148 frames.
You know, I carry it with me. I have like my circular economy package of like a stimulus where I get a chance to meet with people and pull it out.
And one of them is is page 148.
And another one of them is this sort of image from wrap that shows like what are the different jobs that are available in the circular economy,
have a whole lot of other things in that pile of paper, but that's awesome.
This has been so much fun. Thank you so much. I feel like that's a really great kind of optimistic note to end on because particularly, yes,
we have had some really interesting conversations about the future of work and some of those end up being pretty pessimistic.
So it's really nice to have and I wouldn't expect to have any different three, but a note of optimism and hope, too.
And also thank you very much. Thank you very much. A lot of fun.
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