1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:07,950 The future of business is business. Future business more global and more decentralised, making sure that enterprises are a lot more responsible, 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,390 smart cities, more collaboration, consumer driven productivity. 3 00:00:12,510 --> 00:00:16,169 Environmental and social responsibility. Global human centred. 4 00:00:16,170 --> 00:00:19,800 Purposeful Individualised. Automation. Big Data. 5 00:00:19,860 --> 00:00:23,460 Climate Change. Space Exploration. Renewable Energy. 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:32,310 Information security. Exciting and digital. Hello and welcome to the Future of Business Podcast. 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:39,630 I'm your host, Alison McArthur. In this episode we're in conversation with Bruno Roche, chief economist at Mars Catalyst, 8 00:00:39,870 --> 00:00:43,950 a think tank that challenges conventional business thinking to solve business challenges. 9 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,100 One such initiative is the economics of mutuality, 10 00:00:47,310 --> 00:00:54,420 which considers how businesses can operate more responsibly and take into account moral and social dimensions beyond the purely financial. 11 00:00:55,050 --> 00:01:01,410 Beyond his role at Mars, Bruno is also currently a member of the World Economic Forum Council on Sustainable Development and has 12 00:01:01,410 --> 00:01:06,900 worked for the French government as a special adviser on social justice and globalisation for the G20. 13 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:14,940 We sat down with Bruno for a fascinating conversation on profits and purpose and the responsibilities of our generation in driving change. 14 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,310 We hope you enjoy it as much as we did. 15 00:01:19,110 --> 00:01:26,310 Maybe we can just start if you tell us a little bit about your background, how you got into the responsible business space and the Mars Catalyst. 16 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:33,030 Thank you. So good morning, everyone. Good afternoon. Great pleasure to be here today and yes, to respond to your question. 17 00:01:33,210 --> 00:01:36,370 I don't know about now, 28 years ago. So it's a long time ago. 18 00:01:36,370 --> 00:01:42,569 And most of you weren't born at the time. And I just I was because I was really intrigued by the values of the company. 19 00:01:42,570 --> 00:01:52,440 And after a few years doing a personal job, I was actually I joined this organisation called Catalysts, which was set up in the mid-sixties. 20 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:57,360 So as it goes, the division of the of the management and the owner at the time, 21 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:03,300 that's the most important and more difficult question to business could be sold with non-traditional business approaches. 22 00:02:03,780 --> 00:02:10,470 And the fact that it is has grown from the mid sixties to what it is today as a kind of a leadership, 23 00:02:10,770 --> 00:02:14,099 uh, organisation to answer difficult business questions, 24 00:02:14,100 --> 00:02:23,569 but in a way that is not traditional, using a fusion of technology, sciences, humanities ranging from anthropology, sociology, economics, mathematics. 25 00:02:23,570 --> 00:02:33,600 So the physics. It's been a great fun. And today catalyst is made of about 12, 13 people around the world based in in the US, in Europe and in Asia. 26 00:02:33,630 --> 00:02:40,860 It was a partnering with universities like, like Oxbridge and others in order to bring new knowledge to solve big business problems. 27 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:46,530 So it's interesting you say this started around the sixties, so it was sort of really getting going around the time that, 28 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:53,820 you know, Friedman was publishing his articles about how the sole purpose of corporations is to generate profits for shareholders. 29 00:02:54,090 --> 00:03:01,590 So did you come off it or did the catalyst come up against a lot of opposition because it was like absence of ideology of corporations at the time? 30 00:03:01,710 --> 00:03:08,940 Yes, actually, the march has been funded in the hundred years ago and from the beginning is 31 00:03:08,940 --> 00:03:12,899 the owner of voice mail in Europe developed this this concept of mutuality, 32 00:03:12,900 --> 00:03:18,930 which is, you know, the word is called reciprocity. And his vision, that's the sole purpose. 33 00:03:18,930 --> 00:03:22,650 What the ability of the company is to promote the majority of benefits, 34 00:03:22,740 --> 00:03:29,250 starting from the consumers, the customers, the government bodies, the employees, suppliers, 35 00:03:29,250 --> 00:03:32,250 and at the very end, the shareholders as a vision of of Mars, 36 00:03:32,250 --> 00:03:38,460 was actually the opposite of the Milton Friedman approach, because Mao's was a family, it still is a family business. 37 00:03:38,490 --> 00:03:44,160 They actually managed to prosper and grow and thrive during the FRIEDMAN But the 38 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:49,770 economy without adopting the the principles of the Chicago school of thought. 39 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,059 So it's not a surprise that two years before the quotations was in six, 40 00:03:54,060 --> 00:03:58,590 there was this question that was part of a discussion between management on the shoulder. 41 00:03:58,590 --> 00:04:04,530 And the question was what should be the right level of profit? And this question was brought to me in 2006. 42 00:04:04,530 --> 00:04:08,130 At the time, I was just being appointed head of Catalyst and chief economist for most. 43 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,000 And it was probably the most interesting question that an economist could could get. 44 00:04:12,930 --> 00:04:20,190 But the fact that this question was asked by order of a company and not an NGO or not a government is, of course, remarkable. 45 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,370 But also it's it's not random. 46 00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:30,630 It's it's part of the general idea that it's the purpose of business to be a business is to promote ambiguity of benefit. 47 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,710 And that was actually the principle that led most success of the last hundred years. 48 00:04:35,250 --> 00:04:41,730 And that was a challenge we were given at the time, was to transform this principle into a business model. 49 00:04:41,910 --> 00:04:45,550 So in order to to decipher the net, you lose that. 50 00:04:45,810 --> 00:04:50,550 That's all behind the principle of maturity and that what we call it economics of maturity. 51 00:04:51,030 --> 00:04:58,349 But essentially the idea was to it was a business question as well as an ethical question, because the idea that's behind the rate of of profits, 52 00:04:58,350 --> 00:05:07,049 there is also this notion that the rate of of profits is critically important to define the prosperity and the long term growth of the company. 53 00:05:07,050 --> 00:05:13,770 So it's not a question of how much you should give back stood about making money one way and sharing it afterwards. 54 00:05:14,220 --> 00:05:24,810 It's about leveraging the is the the reciprocity principle or the reporting business as a way to nurture the success of the company, 55 00:05:25,290 --> 00:05:29,640 not only socially and and understood on the planet, but also financially. 56 00:05:29,850 --> 00:05:37,290 So no synthetics. It is a very interesting approach because most people believe that you make money first and then you show it essentially 57 00:05:37,770 --> 00:05:48,390 as the intuition that was behind it is that the the sharing of success is a driver of success and not a by-product. 58 00:05:48,930 --> 00:05:57,420 Yeah, exactly. So I guess at the moment there's a real kind of a lack of faith in the public sector to address these issues, 59 00:05:57,810 --> 00:06:05,969 such as climate change, wealth inequality. Do you feel like the private sector has to play a role in this, and how would what form would that take? 60 00:06:05,970 --> 00:06:10,080 Would it be public private partnerships or is it a it's a paradox, 61 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:18,500 is that we the world actually is has never been more prosperous, more safe plagues, famine, kind of. 62 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:24,020 Almost, almost disappear now. I mean, I'm old enough to remember what happened, like only 20, 23 years ago. 63 00:06:24,020 --> 00:06:28,460 So there is a paradox here that the world has never been so great, in a sense, but in parallel, 64 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,809 the level of trust, the level of lack of well-being has never been that high. 65 00:06:32,810 --> 00:06:40,430 And I think it's connected to the fact that we address many of these issues famine, plagues, economic prosperity. 66 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:46,280 But at the same time, we also did it at the expense of the natural resources. 67 00:06:46,820 --> 00:06:51,770 And we also did it in such a way that it benefits, particularly the top 1% of the world. 68 00:06:51,770 --> 00:06:58,940 And so therefore, which is a huge success came also huge issues, but also a lack of purpose. 69 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:05,860 So why are we doing this? And human beings are purpose driven people and why are we doing this? 70 00:07:05,860 --> 00:07:14,120 So we have a real issue in parallel. As you just said, the government are ill equipped to handle global issues, 71 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:22,939 primarily because most of them are really overwhelmed by debt, but also because nation states are limited in their actions. 72 00:07:22,940 --> 00:07:26,390 They are they are not the country really act on a global basis. 73 00:07:26,690 --> 00:07:33,650 So the true actors of globalisation are either large multinational corporations or large organisations like the NGO. 74 00:07:33,860 --> 00:07:43,160 So therefore mechanically there is a higher need for these global actors which have more latitude and more power to act on a global scale, 75 00:07:43,310 --> 00:07:48,620 to address this new issue of inequality in their natural resources and also lack of purpose. 76 00:07:48,620 --> 00:07:54,050 So there is a medical and mechanical shift from nation states to these new actors. 77 00:07:54,590 --> 00:07:56,360 The issue is that these new actors, 78 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:02,360 they are not equipped to handle with the complexity that they are new size and the undue influence conferred on them. 79 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,260 And again, this is going back to this concept of economics maturity. 80 00:08:06,510 --> 00:08:15,680 The purpose of this research is to equip the the leadership of these new global actors to respond to the duty, 81 00:08:16,130 --> 00:08:21,290 but also to the opportunity of addressing these social issues, other issues and purpose issues. 82 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:32,210 Yeah. And could you give an example of how Mars has imbued their employees with a sense of purpose or has implemented responsible business practices? 83 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:40,340 We are united by a set of common practices, and I think that it's fair to say that what unites is emotions, which is is how we do business. 84 00:08:40,340 --> 00:08:46,610 And in some occasions you can really lead to a lot of inspiring, responsible practices. 85 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:53,450 But because Mars is very discrete and usually we don't we don't speak too much about what we what we do, 86 00:08:53,960 --> 00:09:00,140 there is a saying in my country which is that noise doesn't do good and good and make noise. 87 00:09:00,950 --> 00:09:05,509 And Mars is to the extent is very discrete. And that is what I love about this company, 88 00:09:05,510 --> 00:09:08,839 because we don't when you do good things that because we want to look good because 89 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,290 we sense interacting group as a business as you see what is interesting is 90 00:09:12,290 --> 00:09:18,379 that Mars doesn't have a foundation so like many companies are try to do good 91 00:09:18,380 --> 00:09:23,260 just by splitting the business operations and the charitable charity to Mars, 92 00:09:23,510 --> 00:09:28,400 we try to combine the two. He thought Easy know we are not always successful. 93 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:35,809 We have to stay humble. But there is a real sense of effort to to apply as much as possible responsible practices, 94 00:09:35,810 --> 00:09:41,060 not because we want to look good, because we fundamentally believe it's the right thing to do for the business. 95 00:09:41,510 --> 00:09:42,229 Absolutely. 96 00:09:42,230 --> 00:09:49,790 I think just going on from that, like many companies at the moment, they've sort of realised this important to appear socially conscious and, 97 00:09:49,820 --> 00:09:54,530 you know, nod to the Sustainable Development Goals and as such they have so big CSR departments. 98 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,240 What are some ways of stakeholders to ensure that companies are doing more than just, you know, 99 00:09:58,310 --> 00:10:02,590 paying lip service to these issues rather than like fully integrating into the business world? 100 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:03,860 And to me this is a real challenge. 101 00:10:03,860 --> 00:10:10,099 I think the I mean, the SDGs are great initiative because actually it gives a framework and a common language to different players. 102 00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:16,339 I think also I think in my view there are three generations of responsible practices. 103 00:10:16,340 --> 00:10:19,649 The first one was the charity and this initiative. 104 00:10:19,650 --> 00:10:22,700 What what happened over the last hundred years? People make a lot of money. 105 00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:27,280 They are very successful in their business eventually to set up a foundation and the degree to the foundation. 106 00:10:27,290 --> 00:10:29,330 Very good with that. No problem. I love it. 107 00:10:29,750 --> 00:10:34,670 The only issue is that the charity dollar only has one life where he has a business dollar as many people lives. 108 00:10:34,850 --> 00:10:43,180 So if you want to have a scalable approach to the issues of inequality and not your resources to charity suddenly will not suffice. 109 00:10:43,190 --> 00:10:47,600 So the second step in my view, is what we call the CSR, the corporate social responsibility. 110 00:10:47,690 --> 00:10:54,950 Again, it's very, very good. But if you go deep into the motivations, it's primarily, first of all, happening at the periphery of the business. 111 00:10:54,950 --> 00:11:02,929 And it is that's good. But in an individual like what we're doing with charity, right, it's a bit closer to business, 112 00:11:02,930 --> 00:11:11,149 but still it's on the periphery of the business and it's most of the time it's an investment in increasing like a building schools. 113 00:11:11,150 --> 00:11:15,049 So those issues are very good, but again not scalable. 114 00:11:15,050 --> 00:11:18,410 And many companies actually are in this is doing it for. 115 00:11:18,860 --> 00:11:22,210 Repetition purposes and for risk mitigation purposes. 116 00:11:22,750 --> 00:11:30,760 The diadem, but not enough. I seem to seal the waiver that we are going to see over the next couple of the next decade. 117 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:35,110 Is that this concept of responsible practices or reciprocity in business, 118 00:11:35,410 --> 00:11:43,120 in business will have to get into the core of the business and not only it very referee and in my view it is almost a revolution. 119 00:11:43,270 --> 00:11:49,209 It needs to happen because it means that the way we measure value creation and the way 120 00:11:49,210 --> 00:11:53,620 we manage value creation will have to be fundamentally changed across two dimensions. 121 00:11:53,620 --> 00:11:59,469 The first one is that the company is no longer responsible within the legal boundaries, 122 00:11:59,470 --> 00:12:04,510 essentially the shareholder, the employees and the dialogue suppliers and customers. 123 00:12:04,690 --> 00:12:10,450 But the first corporation in that company will increasingly be more responsible across a wider ecosystem, 124 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:17,350 and that the legal boundaries of the firm are not a good description of the true ecosystem in which a company will operate. 125 00:12:17,830 --> 00:12:23,200 This is a first revolution, which means actually that the value creation process would have to embrace different 126 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,170 type of stakeholders that actually the company doesn't know how to handle today. 127 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:31,990 Second Revolution is that company will have to manage different form of capital today. 128 00:12:32,230 --> 00:12:38,379 Companies know very well how to manage financial capital and we do a very good job at doing that by maximising profit in the future. 129 00:12:38,380 --> 00:12:45,280 In my view, that company will have to manage different form of capital, social capital, human capital, natural capital, right? 130 00:12:45,580 --> 00:12:49,690 And not only within the boundaries of the legal, not only within the legal firm, 131 00:12:49,690 --> 00:12:55,510 but across a wider ecosystem, which means actually that the notion of profit will have to be amended. 132 00:12:55,540 --> 00:13:03,369 And in parallel to this revolution, we we need to think about new modes of profit construction, 133 00:13:03,370 --> 00:13:11,950 which would which would include the value creation or the value destruction across a wide open system and across also different forms of capital. 134 00:13:12,250 --> 00:13:20,649 So this concept of mutual profit that we have developed within the economics of mutuality with Colin Mayer and with Bobby Coles is in my view, 135 00:13:20,650 --> 00:13:28,719 critical because this notion of mutual profit, which eventually help businesses identify what is the right level of profit and can 136 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:34,450 help also incentivise the whole company on on a new modes of profit construction. 137 00:13:34,630 --> 00:13:41,470 So this revolution of bringing responsible practices at the core of the business through different tools, 138 00:13:41,470 --> 00:13:50,379 different processes to manage and measure value creation and align the organisation on on these principles is critically important to put purpose, 139 00:13:50,380 --> 00:13:54,550 which is actually an important strategic imperative in business into practice. 140 00:13:55,030 --> 00:13:59,469 Do you think the younger generation will pay a large part in this push for change? 141 00:13:59,470 --> 00:14:05,830 Because, you know, the younger people are sort of generally, you know, maybe more socially conscious than previous generations. 142 00:14:05,830 --> 00:14:10,390 And given that so much of the value of a company consists of its human capital, 143 00:14:10,650 --> 00:14:16,810 you think as they go into the workforce, they're going to have different ideas of what constitutes profit? 144 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:22,240 Yeah, well, the good news well, the good thing about the younger generation, they have less things to unlearn. 145 00:14:22,810 --> 00:14:27,250 So we knew that takes much more mental energy early on than to learn. 146 00:14:27,670 --> 00:14:35,890 So people of my generation will have to mobilise more mental energy to unlearn the traditional way of doing business. 147 00:14:35,950 --> 00:14:40,209 So I think you guys start with a bit of an advantage, your second regret. 148 00:14:40,210 --> 00:14:44,020 So is that you're probably much more aware of what's works, what is the work? 149 00:14:44,350 --> 00:14:46,060 It doesn't make you necessarily better people, 150 00:14:46,270 --> 00:14:53,080 but it makes you actually more aware and I think you are the first generation will be able to say I didn't do good. 151 00:14:53,650 --> 00:14:57,160 My generation. We were very, very few to say when you mean. 152 00:14:57,340 --> 00:15:04,180 I really feel myself privileged to. I had this kind of intuition for the last 25 years, but 25 years ago I was really alone. 153 00:15:04,180 --> 00:15:06,940 Well, not alone, but it was one of many again today. 154 00:15:06,940 --> 00:15:13,940 I mean, even like every year when we ask the questions to the MBA student, how many of you believe that the purpose of business to make profit today? 155 00:15:13,940 --> 00:15:18,760 Today I delivered an MBA only 25%, like a quarter of a class say yes. 156 00:15:19,180 --> 00:15:22,450 I mean, 25 years ago it would be like 1890 3%. 157 00:15:22,450 --> 00:15:28,599 So you are much more aware duration. So therefore because you, you know, you are more responsible. 158 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:35,409 So there is with knowledge come responsibility and therefore because there is a simple portion of a smart people and good 159 00:15:35,410 --> 00:15:42,100 people and automation that that my generation essentially because you are more aware and you are more you have more knowledge. 160 00:15:42,460 --> 00:15:48,640 I expect, actually, that your generation will embrace this idea of leveraging businesses from the core. 161 00:15:49,090 --> 00:15:53,350 To do good will actually be one of the mark of your generation. 162 00:15:53,530 --> 00:16:00,990 Yeah. And and do you think MBA curriculums have sort of adapted to reflect this new idea of, you know, 163 00:16:01,030 --> 00:16:06,850 what purpose is within an organisation or, you know, if it if not, how could they change that question? 164 00:16:06,970 --> 00:16:11,950 But I think the curriculum of business course just follows the practices in business. 165 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:17,470 And you can see that actually today's tangibility purpose, responsible businesses. 166 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,730 Part of the curriculum, but still on the margin. Mm hmm. 167 00:16:21,820 --> 00:16:26,920 Right. Yeah. And finance is still the the the golden discipline, actually. 168 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:34,360 I mean, I studied finance, but I come from this world of of finance and, uh, and I think in a sense, it's not wrong, 169 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:41,680 but I think as long as it will stay on the periphery in the form of elective, it will just attract, uh, just a few people. 170 00:16:41,860 --> 00:16:48,219 Right. Which will not be a revolution. I really believe, actually, that finance needs to be reformed as a function today. 171 00:16:48,220 --> 00:16:51,790 It's a function that essentially is is about compliance. 172 00:16:52,030 --> 00:16:58,840 And I think finance could become an innovation function. And when finance would be reformed to embrace this form of capital, 173 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:04,690 that also eventually will reform to take into account not only the legal stakeholders of the firm, 174 00:17:04,690 --> 00:17:10,540 but the wider set of stakeholders in finance could be tremendous, powerful tool to bring changes. 175 00:17:10,540 --> 00:17:14,590 So yeah, I personally, I always when I work with business units, 176 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:21,460 my number one objective is to bring the will to work with the finance department because they are the actors of change. 177 00:17:21,820 --> 00:17:26,440 They don't know it. Most of them. They don't know it because it seems they are more like a compliance structure. 178 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:31,770 But I think it's much more than a complaint structure. It's a co-pilot structure and it could be a sort of innovation structure. 179 00:17:31,810 --> 00:17:36,610 So in a sense, to back to to a question to finance curriculum need to be adjusted. 180 00:17:36,820 --> 00:17:44,560 As long as a finance curriculum is that adjusted, it will it will still be an interesting phenomenon, but not a scalable movement. 181 00:17:44,620 --> 00:17:52,209 Absolutely. And as you say, finance institutions will rule the world and they are starting to be of more exciting areas of finance, 182 00:17:52,210 --> 00:17:58,480 such as like impact investing, where they're going to look at like how you can solve social environmental problems through finance. 183 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,330 But it's still. Yeah, but the issue is impacting impact. 184 00:18:01,370 --> 00:18:05,769 Basically, people believe that there is an implicit assumption that if you do impact investing, 185 00:18:05,770 --> 00:18:09,100 you will have less financial performance and which actually not true. 186 00:18:09,310 --> 00:18:12,700 This is something we really have to it's a myth we have to kill. 187 00:18:13,330 --> 00:18:21,400 And every time we implemented the economics of majority in real businesses in poor countries or rich countries on supply side and demand side, 188 00:18:21,580 --> 00:18:28,149 every time we saw that actually not only the companies that had kind of strategies, 189 00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:35,200 not only they are more, of course, more responsible and have a higher impact on people and planet, but they also have higher financial performance. 190 00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:43,420 And it's not by accident. It's because when your business mobilises different form of resources, when you're adding resources to your business, 191 00:18:43,420 --> 00:18:47,319 it's a form of social, human, natural capital across a wider ecosystem. 192 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,240 You're essentially adding resources to your business. 193 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:54,160 And then on top of that, if you apply the discipline of management to manage these kind of resources intentionally, 194 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,850 you should be surprised that your business outperform. That's normal. 195 00:18:58,090 --> 00:18:58,420 Yeah. 196 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:06,820 Okay, so it's not a matter of easy or it's just, yeah, you can do it together, but it's a matter of investment and the energy that I like to take. 197 00:19:06,820 --> 00:19:12,309 It's more like close to to home here because consumer goods businesses eventually 198 00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:19,270 moved about 40 years ago from from a manufacturing business to a marketing business. 199 00:19:19,870 --> 00:19:26,140 And this revolution to add marketing function to consumer goods with a real revolution. 200 00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:29,590 I remember when I studied the history of businesses, it was a lot of tensions. 201 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:37,240 People got fired, there was a lot of fight. But eventually today, if I look at my company models, the real value of the company is in the brands. 202 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,129 It's not in the manufacturing unit. 203 00:19:39,130 --> 00:19:48,280 And I think today we are a similar situation that companies that do not make the conscious decision to invest intentionally in the social, 204 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,220 human, natural capital in their ecosystem. 205 00:19:51,490 --> 00:19:57,370 Beyond the legal boundaries of the firm, we make the same tragic mistake at companies that you want to invest in marketing. 206 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:02,140 40 years ago, the companies that actually decided not to invest in the new capability, 207 00:20:02,170 --> 00:20:08,410 bringing people to the media industry from Hollywood, from outside world, actually two days are gone. 208 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,870 So it's not a question of looking good or doing the right thing. 209 00:20:11,870 --> 00:20:18,849 Know, it's a question of survival. A recent we are just a similar time in history that companies are do not have this intuition to invest 210 00:20:18,850 --> 00:20:23,920 in the ecosystem according to defence of capital would just simply not be there in 20 years from now. 211 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,860 So I kind of want to just talk about sort of challenges because it's obviously still quite challenging to implement this, 212 00:20:29,860 --> 00:20:33,160 that you've clearly had a very successful career and you've got very strong sense of purpose. 213 00:20:33,370 --> 00:20:37,029 Has there ever been any times where you've sort of failed at your goal? 214 00:20:37,030 --> 00:20:41,740 And if so, how did you overcome it? Oh, my goodness. Yes, I failed so many times. 215 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,180 You know, I knew about it. But with failing you, are you also learning? 216 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:53,739 And I learned very early in my in my career that it's important to be faithful in small things and when the odds are so is really against you, 217 00:20:53,740 --> 00:21:00,580 which happens when you want to bring innovation especially is going to be division. You have to go back to your purpose and and wait and be patient. 218 00:21:00,580 --> 00:21:06,790 And when you face too much opposition from others, it's very easy to be angry and to be bitter and to be discouraged. 219 00:21:06,790 --> 00:21:09,970 I chose barely my career to forgive when I was held, 220 00:21:10,060 --> 00:21:15,640 to ask for forgiveness when I did the wrong thing or said the wrong thing and never lose sight of my purpose. 221 00:21:15,850 --> 00:21:24,350 So do you have any sort of advice that you would give? To MBA students or anyone that's looking to pursue a sort of responsible career. 222 00:21:24,710 --> 00:21:30,710 But first of all, I'd like to tell you about my dear MBA students that I'm a father of four children, 223 00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:35,260 and some of them are actually in the in the same career, in an in business. 224 00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:41,730 And what I teach to my children and the people of your generation is is first of all, you are a privileged generation. 225 00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:44,930 If I speak to you today, it's because you probably belong to the top 1% of the world. 226 00:21:44,990 --> 00:21:48,350 Okay. So with this blessings comes also responsibilities. 227 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,320 You you have received a lot from your parents, from your generation, from. 228 00:21:52,340 --> 00:21:58,909 So now you have the responsibility to manage this talent that you received in a way that is responsible and meaningful. 229 00:21:58,910 --> 00:22:07,040 And you will achieve this by being very conscious that you are a unique person with a unique calling and with unique identity. 230 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:14,059 And each one of you received a very specific target in life that will actually will define who you are and what is your calling. 231 00:22:14,060 --> 00:22:17,389 And it takes time to identify who you are and what is your calling. 232 00:22:17,390 --> 00:22:22,820 But it is number one challenge for you and not only for your generation, but for any generation. 233 00:22:22,910 --> 00:22:29,540 The life we have is very unique and is very precious and there is so much more joy in fulfilling 234 00:22:29,540 --> 00:22:33,760 your calling and just being selfish or trying to fulfil the calling of other people. 235 00:22:33,770 --> 00:22:42,499 And my advice as a as a human being, but also as a father, is to is to really find out who you are and what is your calling. 236 00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:49,630 And you can find it through speaking to your family to understand why you are on Earth right now, 237 00:22:49,660 --> 00:22:52,069 because you have chosen to to work in business things. 238 00:22:52,070 --> 00:23:00,590 That business is actually probably one of the most powerful tool we have today to bring prosperity and well-being and restoration to the world. 239 00:23:00,650 --> 00:23:07,280 So therefore, as future business leaders, you have to remember that there is more joy you to give and to receive, 240 00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:13,399 and that there is that the most successful individuals organisation businesses are 241 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:18,110 the ones that are driven by a sense of purpose that transcends self-interest. 242 00:23:18,350 --> 00:23:21,440 I think that's a really thoughtful note to end on. Green Arrow. 243 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:29,150 So thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you very much. And thank you for joining us for this edition of the Future of Business podcast. 244 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,660 If you enjoyed the episode, please do rate review and subscribe. 245 00:23:32,930 --> 00:23:39,530 We'd love to hear your feedback. And as always, if you have comments or questions or if you'd like to suggest a topic for a future episode, 246 00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:48,080 please feel free to email us at SBS Podcasts. SB Stocks Don't Ask, Don't UK until next time goodbye.