1 00:00:00,470 --> 00:00:03,140 The Future of business. Future of business, future of business. 2 00:00:03,140 --> 00:00:07,940 It's more global and more decentralised, making sure that enterprises that are a lot more responsible. 3 00:00:08,150 --> 00:00:12,410 Smart cities. More collaboration. Consumer driven productivity. 4 00:00:12,530 --> 00:00:16,100 Environmental and social responsibility. Global human centred. 5 00:00:16,190 --> 00:00:19,790 Purposeful individualised. Automation. Big Data. 6 00:00:19,850 --> 00:00:23,450 Climate Change. Space Exploration. Renewable Energy. 7 00:00:23,510 --> 00:00:30,140 Information security. Exciting and digital. Hello and welcome to the Future of Business Podcast. 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:39,740 I am your host, Alyssa McArthur. Today on the podcast we'll be exploring an industry that until very recently was illegal in most of the world, 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:48,650 but loosening restrictions on cannabis generally and medical cannabis in particular have paved the way for a boom in the legal marijuana market. 10 00:00:49,310 --> 00:00:54,470 To learn more, I recently sat down with two Gin Virk and Paul Steckler of Canopy Growth, 11 00:00:54,770 --> 00:01:00,520 one of the leading players in the space and the first publicly listed cannabis company, Talent Pool. 12 00:01:00,530 --> 00:01:06,440 Thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. Why don't we start by you introducing yourselves and the company? 13 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:13,980 Great. Well, look, thank you for having us here. And you know, by way of introduction, I am to gender work, Teach for Short. 14 00:01:14,030 --> 00:01:18,410 I am the deputy managing director for Canopy Growth in Europe. 15 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:25,370 And so with that role, I oversee the operational expansion of Canopy throughout the European region. 16 00:01:26,900 --> 00:01:31,280 Hi, Paul Steckler. I'm CEO of Spectrum UK. 17 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:36,430 So my background is primarily pharmaceuticals and commercial. 18 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,459 So I've been in pharmaceuticals about 20 years as commercial director of Pfizer 19 00:01:40,460 --> 00:01:44,870 a few years ago and chief commercial officer of some small UK biotechs. 20 00:01:44,870 --> 00:01:48,350 And now just join this very exciting time of growth. 21 00:01:48,980 --> 00:01:54,580 Yes, absolutely. So, yeah. Well, what got you both into the cannabis industry specifically? 22 00:01:54,590 --> 00:01:59,870 It doesn't seem to be like an obvious career path business. Obviously, a lot of buzz around it at the moment. 23 00:02:00,620 --> 00:02:06,530 Yeah, no, it's it's an exciting time to be a part of the industry and and lots of growth. 24 00:02:06,980 --> 00:02:11,060 So my background actually was largely focussed on investment banking. 25 00:02:11,510 --> 00:02:18,409 And in the investment banking space I worked with technology, consumer and pharmaceutical companies primarily. 26 00:02:18,410 --> 00:02:22,340 So working on financing those companies, doing a lot of IPOs. 27 00:02:22,670 --> 00:02:31,370 And, you know, really my, my interests were across all of those sectors and it was hard to find something outside of that that intersected, 28 00:02:31,670 --> 00:02:36,680 I think, across all three. And then the cannabis space started to open up. 29 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:37,999 And for me personally, 30 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:48,020 that was really exciting because you have this really unique set up where there is both a consumer element and then a medical element, 31 00:02:48,350 --> 00:02:51,680 and then there's some technology that ties it together. Yeah. Yeah. 32 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:59,689 So obviously public opinion has started to shift around the consumption of cannabis and, you know, regulation has loosened up a lot recently. 33 00:02:59,690 --> 00:03:03,799 It's becoming legalised in some other countries and that seems to be a trend. 34 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:08,750 So obviously there are a lot of opportunities there. What do you think has caused this change? 35 00:03:09,260 --> 00:03:17,630 So at a at a global level, I think there has been a increasing awareness of the medical efficacy of cannabis. 36 00:03:18,020 --> 00:03:27,709 It was only probably since 2005 that there was a good understanding of the endocannabinoid system and how cannabis interacts with that. 37 00:03:27,710 --> 00:03:34,310 And there's a sort of broader understanding of the therapeutic benefits of cannabis and different indications. 38 00:03:34,970 --> 00:03:42,170 Canopy, for example, looks at claims pain, sleep and anxiety with them with recreational cannabis. 39 00:03:42,290 --> 00:03:51,170 And this is more region specific. I think there's been this sense that the the way that cannabis was treated historically was ineffective, 40 00:03:51,410 --> 00:03:56,360 whether you want to call it the war on drugs or rather other such sort of measures. 41 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:05,530 And by regulating it and controlling it, it's a it's a better outcome for consumers public safety and kind of drives, 42 00:04:05,900 --> 00:04:07,810 you know, benefits all around for society. 43 00:04:07,820 --> 00:04:16,610 So Canada, for example, legalised cannabis for recreational use in October 2018, and those were largely the motivations there. 44 00:04:17,780 --> 00:04:21,890 And just I guess it's kind of a UK spin on it and and pharmaceutical spin, I guess. 45 00:04:22,670 --> 00:04:28,670 So I'm someone who grew up in the seventies and I think it's fair to say the UK is very different now than it was back then in a good way. 46 00:04:29,210 --> 00:04:35,630 So I think there has been a shift towards more liberal views, towards drugs and everything else that's going on. 47 00:04:35,630 --> 00:04:38,480 And I think when you look at it from a pharmaceutical perspective, you know, 48 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:43,879 the Home Office talks about there's already 240,000 people buying cannabis illegally for medicinal purposes. 49 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,170 So this is not people smoking for recreational use. These people actually are very sick. 50 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,440 That's children with epilepsy, people with masks, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. 51 00:04:51,650 --> 00:04:57,680 Some people have a lot of pain, so there's already a huge market, people buying the drug on street corners in a way that's not regulated. 52 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,040 It's not very helpful and it's potentially dying. So. 53 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,780 So for me, I think the shift is coming because people realise actually people already have an access to cannabis. 54 00:05:06,020 --> 00:05:09,170 We now need to regulate that so that people get good quality products. 55 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:14,299 And you know, in pharmacy, in the industry, really patient safety is as well as efficacy. 56 00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:19,580 Patient safety is the biggest thing. It's the most important things I think and I think governments are beginning to realise that there's an 57 00:05:19,580 --> 00:05:25,040 opportunity here actually to partner and build an industry that actually could prove to be in the future, 58 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,040 especially as clinical evidence builds over time, which it is. 59 00:05:29,090 --> 00:05:32,360 It could this could be really useful for people in society. 60 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,650 And I think that's why it's so important that we continue to shift forward in the right way. 61 00:05:36,980 --> 00:05:44,840 Mm hmm. So what's your views on the use of marijuana for medical use versus just purely recreational use? 62 00:05:46,670 --> 00:05:50,130 Yeah. So at a at a company wide level. 63 00:05:50,150 --> 00:05:53,150 So canopy growth has two business divisions. 64 00:05:53,330 --> 00:05:57,230 You could largely group one of them as adult use recreation and for medical. 65 00:05:58,070 --> 00:06:08,060 In Europe, we are a European B2B pharmaceutical company when it comes to medical cannabis, so we do not have a recreational focus in Europe. 66 00:06:08,620 --> 00:06:17,960 Um, with regards to our view on recreational cannabis wants to operate in markets where it is federally permissible to do so. 67 00:06:18,290 --> 00:06:22,009 And so if the government has appointed that it should be allowed, 68 00:06:22,010 --> 00:06:26,180 we want to be a part of that business and sort of help the consumer journey along there. 69 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,590 And so for us, that that's pretty much where we focus and play. 70 00:06:30,770 --> 00:06:36,830 Obviously, you know, the industry is in its early phases and canopy growth has managed to rack up a lot of first light. 71 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:41,390 So you're the first company this to be left on the major stock exchange, which is really interesting. 72 00:06:42,110 --> 00:06:46,970 So what have been like the next big milestones for you and what differentiates you from your competitors? 73 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,620 How have you become so successful? 74 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:57,920 Well, I think I would add to that that list of firsts speaking at Oxford, actually doing a talk at the university students today. 75 00:06:58,790 --> 00:07:02,700 You know, I think we're the first cannabis company to do that, but it's quite possibly. 76 00:07:02,930 --> 00:07:06,350 Yeah. But I think so. 77 00:07:06,500 --> 00:07:12,709 The question is what what sort of drives that you really this is I think it's a founder led mentality. 78 00:07:12,710 --> 00:07:20,570 And Bruce Linton, who is co-CEO founder and chairman, came from a technology background. 79 00:07:20,570 --> 00:07:30,410 He's a serial entrepreneur. And I think that that's the culture that he instils in Canopy and he was the person behind that, 80 00:07:30,410 --> 00:07:35,450 that listing, the financing and then really the success of firsts after that, 81 00:07:35,570 --> 00:07:42,139 building the team around him with that same mindset and that that was one of the attractive qualities for me to the company was to be a part of that, 82 00:07:42,140 --> 00:07:48,290 that culture and you know, working in it, I can tell you that it's a it is a it's a hard working company, 83 00:07:48,620 --> 00:07:53,000 great to great team work, great collaboration. And we all want to achieve that together. 84 00:07:53,270 --> 00:08:01,520 Mm hmm. And so recently you've also you've made a number of acquisitions, recently a skincare company, which is which is interesting. 85 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,600 So what kind of product ranges do you have and how are you looking to expand that? 86 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:12,919 Yeah. So right now we're trying to cater our product base to what we're allowed to 87 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,910 sell in different markets and in places like Canada and the United States. 88 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:32,149 Beyond medicinal cannabis based medicines and recreational products, you also have things like skincare, topicals, cosmetics, beverages. 89 00:08:32,150 --> 00:08:35,360 I mean, all of these things can be infused with with cannabinoids. 90 00:08:35,870 --> 00:08:41,899 And if the markets allow for us to to actually sell those products. 91 00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:44,900 And so I'm specifically referring to regulations. We want to be involved there. 92 00:08:44,900 --> 00:08:50,690 I mean, our goal is to be the biggest cannabis company in the world, and we want to be playing in those markets. 93 00:08:50,690 --> 00:08:59,480 So when it comes to things like skin care, that's something that you can see from our acquisition would be something we're interested in. 94 00:08:59,690 --> 00:09:05,750 I think if you look at, you know, Canadian in the US markets, that those could be places where that makes sense. 95 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:12,770 Mm hmm. And what are some of the main challenges or roadblocks that you've encountered as you've grown the company over time? 96 00:09:12,770 --> 00:09:15,170 Is it I mean, apart from the obvious kind of, you know, 97 00:09:15,860 --> 00:09:22,670 the legalisation in terms of maybe public sentiment or something like that, lots of issues we had to deal with. 98 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,890 So public sentiment, I think we talked a bit about that earlier. 99 00:09:28,070 --> 00:09:37,380 There seems to be a a tailwind behind the public supporting use of cannabis, at least at the medicinal level. 100 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:45,200 Recreational is so more controversial that that's something we have a government relations team that sort of works with us to 101 00:09:45,380 --> 00:09:53,510 to help understand and interface with governments when it comes to the sort of the the day to day operational challenges. 102 00:09:53,750 --> 00:09:57,470 If you look at Canopy, we we're very well capitalised. 103 00:09:57,740 --> 00:10:04,410 We have a. Substantial investment from Constellation Brands, which is a large U.S. alcohol and spirits company. 104 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,840 And that I think the challenge has been taking that capital, 105 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:16,410 allocating it and growing as fast as we can to to tackle the opportunities that exist for us in different markets. 106 00:10:16,770 --> 00:10:21,000 And and with that comes recruiting and hiring. 107 00:10:21,330 --> 00:10:27,180 Coming up with the best business plans and then also pivoting as regulations change. 108 00:10:27,780 --> 00:10:32,490 And and so you have a very dynamic environment to contend with. 109 00:10:33,930 --> 00:10:41,700 And Paul, you mentioned earlier, you know, one of the potential impetuses for governance in terms of legalising cannabis, 110 00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:46,950 at least for medical use, is the fact that people can easily get cannabis if they want to on a street corner. 111 00:10:46,950 --> 00:10:51,540 And obviously, that comes with its own issues around, you know, the black market in supply chains. 112 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:59,100 Was canopy growth sort of doing around, you know, ensuring that it has like a transparent supply chain and there is sort of no issues. 113 00:11:00,150 --> 00:11:05,070 So from a U.K. perspective, we clearly are working very closely with the regulators. 114 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:11,520 And there is a there is really strict guidelines, very well documented and published guidelines about how you bring cannabis into the country. 115 00:11:12,450 --> 00:11:16,500 We are lucky, I guess, in the U.K. that we will have our own infrastructure. 116 00:11:17,550 --> 00:11:23,280 And the way that cannabis is stored, monitored, tracked and everything else is is unbelievably strict. 117 00:11:23,610 --> 00:11:28,679 And I should touch on actually the way that cannabis is grown. So I think many of you often, even when I joined this industry, 118 00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:35,060 you imagine some people imagine a hippie in a field with loads of cannabis around and say, no, you know, it's not like that. 119 00:11:35,070 --> 00:11:38,010 It is really strict pharmaceutical conditions. 120 00:11:38,010 --> 00:11:45,930 You know, it's the science behind how you grow the right strains and how much THC in the product, how much CBD is in the product saturates asthmatics. 121 00:11:45,930 --> 00:11:50,819 And it takes many years to get that experience to understand how to do that properly and canopy do do it properly. 122 00:11:50,820 --> 00:11:55,770 So we. So it's so it's it's really interesting because it's not what I think people expect. 123 00:11:56,220 --> 00:11:57,840 So we have a really strict supply chain. 124 00:11:58,380 --> 00:12:04,620 It's really governed whether we bring cannabis in from Canada or from Germany, wherever else in the world we've been cannabis. 125 00:12:04,620 --> 00:12:09,839 And it's, it's documented and we have to let the regulators know what we're bringing in when we bringing it. 126 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,299 And also, more importantly, why we bringing it in. 127 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:18,030 So we will document which patients we were going to inform, not mind patients, but obviously it's anonymous being for specific needs. 128 00:12:18,210 --> 00:12:24,690 And actually really interesting in the U.K., what I think we need to remind people is that cannabis is used once all other products are filed. 129 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:29,460 So if it's a patient with chronic pain, for example, they have tried everything that is actually on the market, 130 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:31,829 including products, the way they've used them off label. 131 00:12:31,830 --> 00:12:38,510 So whether it's, you know, even licensed for indication, they had that once they've tried all of these products, only then do get access to cannabis. 132 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:44,190 So we are more out there going for you've tried ibuprofen now you can try some cannabis it's this is 133 00:12:44,190 --> 00:12:49,709 you've tried everything in the pain scale it's not worked and you know that you were kind of a loss, 134 00:12:49,710 --> 00:12:53,130 as all patients say. So we thought about really, really, really, really strictly. 135 00:12:54,450 --> 00:12:58,140 And it's funny because it's a challenge, but I think one of the. Just to add to that, 136 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:05,700 one of the biggest challenges in the UK I think is the stigma side of all patients who probably are already buying cannabis on the street corner. 137 00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:07,020 We use that metaphorically, but you know, 138 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:14,219 they buying the products illegally and there is a stigma associated going to your GP or even your specialist say, 139 00:13:14,220 --> 00:13:17,250 you know what, actually I can use this and it's work for me. 140 00:13:18,210 --> 00:13:22,530 There is still that stigma that's similar to, you know, you go back, I can't remember when, 141 00:13:22,530 --> 00:13:26,159 but a long time ago I remember that I launched by Agora in the UK and via group, 142 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:33,389 you know, erectile dysfunction back then, which is a long time ago now, it was the same stigma, you know, middle aged men interested. 143 00:13:33,390 --> 00:13:34,890 I wasn't made licensed, but now I am. 144 00:13:34,890 --> 00:13:40,280 It's kind of like, you know, middle aged men who just had this thing of, I can't go to the GP, I cannot talk about. 145 00:13:40,290 --> 00:13:46,829 And they would skirt around the subject and say, I've got really bad cold or cough, you know, and we've got you can't compare the two. 146 00:13:46,830 --> 00:13:53,159 I know. But this is a estimate of the cannabis, which I think is a challenge for us as well, which we need to come at somehow overcome. 147 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:59,500 Because if it's 240,000 people in the UK buying the product illegally already and actually the numbers could be much higher, 148 00:13:59,580 --> 00:14:03,240 that's an all time office estimate. Could be way higher than that for a lot of people. 149 00:14:03,450 --> 00:14:09,690 Yeah, no, definitely. I guess just to follow on from that, you know, you've got a compassionate pricing model, 150 00:14:09,930 --> 00:14:13,200 so that's about making medical cannabis affordable for patients. 151 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,790 Could you and you also provide medical education programs to Canadian physicians? 152 00:14:17,790 --> 00:14:21,750 Could you tell us a little about those initiatives and why that's so important to the company? 153 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:31,530 Sure. So that's a little more Canadian focussed and but I think speak to the principles of the company with the compassionate pricing. 154 00:14:31,890 --> 00:14:36,930 So Canopy was founded around providing medical cannabis first and foremost, 155 00:14:36,930 --> 00:14:44,759 and so wanting to make sure that the patients are receiving medicine at an affordable price. 156 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:52,950 And also, it's interesting to note that in Canada it's not covered under national health care, so it's not reimbursed. 157 00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:58,950 There are some insurance programs that you can get that will cover medicinal cannabis use through. 158 00:14:59,180 --> 00:15:03,680 Flexible benefits, but it's largely on the patient to to purchase this. 159 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:09,590 So that's where we tried to make sure that people are are getting access if if they fall within the, 160 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,209 I guess, the income band requirements to to get that with the medical education. 161 00:15:14,210 --> 00:15:18,710 It's it's something that we try to to be a leader in in the market. 162 00:15:18,710 --> 00:15:26,390 We want to make sure that patients, physicians understand exactly how the medicine works. 163 00:15:26,540 --> 00:15:31,309 So understanding the science, understanding the dosage, obviously this is different in different markets in Canada. 164 00:15:31,310 --> 00:15:36,140 It's a different way that we interact with the patient than it is in Europe. 165 00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:40,459 In Canada, you do have a more direct contact with the patient here. 166 00:15:40,460 --> 00:15:44,630 It's it's through doctors and pharmacists. We don't speak directly to the patient. 167 00:15:45,050 --> 00:15:50,390 And so but, look, the information is out there and you can access it online. 168 00:15:51,200 --> 00:16:00,229 So I guess there might be a challenge around the fact that, you know, it's not just customers that have to accept cannabis, 169 00:16:00,230 --> 00:16:04,490 but when you were a B2B company, it would be doctors that are prescribing the cannabis. 170 00:16:04,490 --> 00:16:12,710 So you have to get there buying as well. Do doctors see cannabis as a viable treatment at the moment? 171 00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:23,899 Yeah. So it's a it's a great question. So so doctors are increasingly understanding that the cannabis is a a viable treatment therapy for, 172 00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:27,320 again, some of the indications we talked about earlier, pain, sleep and anxiety. 173 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:32,750 Those are things that Canopy focuses on. There's obviously a longer list aside from that. 174 00:16:32,750 --> 00:16:38,209 And and that's where the the education it's where the scientific studies are focussed. 175 00:16:38,210 --> 00:16:44,750 And I mean, I think the the longer term goal would be to create more substantiated evidence based 176 00:16:44,750 --> 00:16:51,410 claims around certain of these indications that a lot of doctors gravitate to. 177 00:16:53,870 --> 00:17:02,809 But then this is also patient driven. So patients who have been buying on the black market or acquiring in Canada, 178 00:17:02,810 --> 00:17:08,450 somehow they've been going to doctors and telling them what works for them as well. 179 00:17:08,450 --> 00:17:14,269 You know, obviously this works into that framework of not being the first line treatment, but but after you've tried a bunch of other things. 180 00:17:14,270 --> 00:17:23,419 But, but there is a certain amount of this driven by my patients and there are advocacy groups that the kind of follow the subject has been cool. 181 00:17:23,420 --> 00:17:27,110 Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. It's great to have your time. 182 00:17:27,530 --> 00:17:32,360 Thank you. You know, really pleasure to be here. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this week's podcast. 183 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:40,340 If you have any questions, comments or suggestions, you can reach us at SBC Podcast talks to AC UK. 184 00:17:40,940 --> 00:17:42,530 Until next time, goodbye.