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Welcome to part one of our podcast, Exploring the Fundamentals of Leadership with Professor Carl Hennigan.

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Professor Kemal Mitani is asking the questions.

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And today we'll be exploring the importance of communication, emotional intelligence and being more of a tortoise rather than a hare as a leader.

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You'll be able to find part two on the evidence based health care podcast series.

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Oh, hello, I'm Carl Mitani, and I'm here today to interview Carl Hannigan, who is professor of evidence based medicine at the University of Oxford.

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We're going to be discussing leadership today.

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We'll be exploring some of Carl's own experience of developing as a leader and observations and the state of leadership that he's experienced,

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particularly in health care.

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We'll be interested, particularly what other health care leaders can learn from leaders in related and unrelated sectors and some of the cholent,

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common challenges that emerge as you navigate through your own leadership career.

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So now I'd like to ask Carl to introduce himself and also just tell us a bit about your current role, Carl, and how your career started.

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Yeah, well, thanks, Campbell. My name's Carl.

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I'm gonna just said at the moment I have a number of roles and the first within the universe is I'm professor of evidence based medicine,

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where I have two roles in effect. One is based around teaching and the other role is based around research.

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And then with that, I'm also an urgent care general practitioner, working weekends.

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Whereas the direct clinical care and seeing patients and that's the sorts of roles that exist within that,

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there are different bits of each of the jobs. But I guess I guess I came to Oxford in 1994 as a mature student.

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A ton of people said you may be old, but not necessarily mature.

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HENNIGAN For that. I came as a 26 year old,

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having had a career beforehand when I left school at 16 with no great O levels and went and did a career in lots of different aspects

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and then came as a medical student and qualified in 2000 in Oxford and then did a variety of roles which led me to academic medicine.

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And there has been in the Department of Primary Care and been director of the Centre for Evidence Based Medicine in 2010.

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So it's been a decade now.

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Testico, and as you went through these different roles, as you describe, you know, even healthcare, then through your medical career.

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And then now as a graduate of medicine and now as director.

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Did you see yourself as an emerging leader through these different phases? Yeah, I think it's interesting.

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I don't think it did.

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And so we get much more into it because I think what happens is it's you you look back into the sort of bits of leadership are coming.

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But I think what you're doing is you're developing new rooms, you base.

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And your own knowledge and building the expertise and experience as you go,

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you suddenly then start to get to a point where suddenly you're you're leading a small team or suddenly building a new programme.

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And in doing that, you suddenly realise, look at this, what the skills of rebuilding to get to this point there.

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And I think there is a transition with everybody where at some point what happens is at the top of the tree, they go, you realise you are right.

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You are the person who has to make the decisions. You have to create the dynamism, the ideas and push things forward.

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And suddenly you're like, oh, I was relying on that professor. That person was in charge and suddenly it's you.

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And that's the transition that people find difficult. And one of the keys I think about you is if you get into a leadership, that is.

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You've got to try and also bring closer people on way of saying, well, get some responsibility.

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Let them believe that their approach to being in charge empowered so that when they're there,

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they're ready because there is a tendency for people to go.

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Well, look, I'm in charge and everybody below me, I'm going to manage stuff that they do the right thing.

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And I think that's journey of leadership that when you do look back, you can sort of see here right back, even even into primary school in areas.

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You can see areas where you were doing things that way suddenly go.

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I actually was in a position then where I actually I was taking some ownership of taking the responsibility.

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And I think if you look at that, that's the key to me. At some point, you get to a point where it goes.

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Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm having to drive the initiative, take forward the ideas, work with a team.

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And and I think it's it's not always apparent at the outset that that's what you're doing.

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But when you look back, you can see these things were occurring all the time.

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Just what you say, could you as a leader, have always had that sort of drive underpinning you?

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Well, no, because I think how you look at it and strategy of who you are and what you like doing.

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And I think that's the key for me is I like problems.

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I love problems and going into areas where you go. This is a big task.

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And there's something we want to do, Bill. So I like problem solving.

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Second is, I like working with teams. I like the team aspect.

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So we've got a problem. Who's got what bits of the job to do?

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And if we get to the end of this, we can build something much world class and we'll be proud of it for on the journey.

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We'll all be like, hey, it was a lot of fun. We had to work hard.

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We got to be an innovative. And third is, you know, is the heart of the issue.

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It's the soul. The more of a problem it is, the more you have to bringing your expertise and experience, the more I engaged I am with that.

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And it is that can be on an even on your own level.

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So even if you're developing your own leadership and I'll give a good example

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for people where I don't something where I've had to build my skill base,

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I realised very early on in that in the remit of academia that you have to be a good communicator.

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And I've always been a good talker and a good teacher.

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But if I put my skill based on rights and if I went back about 10 years ago, I put my skill base of writing really quiet at the lower end.

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And I'd say that's one of the products of me leaving school at 16.

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I didn't have the ability to build that skill in English language and literature writing.

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So I set myself a test where I said I'm going to learn to communicate through writing.

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And that's been a 10 year journey which I've taken on continually build my skill level, keep pushing my boundaries of what I want to do.

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Put your neck out and sticking articles out when you're not quite ready.

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And now I feel like I'm getting the. So that's me building my skill base.

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And that's me leading for myself. If you lie and I think that's an important attribute if you look at what you're good at,

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but what you're not good at and what you require for the job honour, I think that's an important aspect,

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because I think there's something about if you look at sports is a good area is when you look at sports,

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you think, well, here's a captain who's the leader. It generally is the person who is one of the best players in the team.

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No, always, because sometimes the best players are not the best communicators or the best leaders.

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But generally, somebody is going to be on the bench and on the pitch.

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And I think that's an important aspect. If you're going to lead at some point, people are going to look to you and say, well, let me warn the teacher.

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Are you actually at that level because you've got to lead by example? And everywhere I've been.

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I've often thought you've got to develop this skill base. You've got to be really up there.

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You don't have to be better than everybody is not a competition,

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but you have to feel comfortable when we're talking about communication or dissemination or what we're going to do in this project.

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I understand what we're trying to achieve.

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And then having a great team around you is part of that fun factor where you go, look, there's lots of different bits to this problem.

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And if we all work in one together, we'll solve it.

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And I think that's important within your own ability to say I'm leading for myself and

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combining that then and taking that vision with other people who want to come on that journey.

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So you mentioned communication being a massive part of that.

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What would you say? Call you some of your other other leadership skills?

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Yeah, I think their leadership come through the environment you're in and the aspects, you know, very young.

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I often remember having to hold my own with my dad in terms of the conversations that could be political,

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could be about debates, having an opinion, having some thought processes about.

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What do you think about the current strategy in Cauvin? What do you think about the current position in terms of the left vs. the right?

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What does that mean?

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Having an ability to have an opinion, then reflect on that and then take that opinion forward and test it out and then testing it out.

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You are looking to see reflect to some point. If we go down this direction, to what extent is this reflected in the wider audience?

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Is it a grouping that's more likely to be beneficial or harmful?

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And I think that communication is really interesting because I think there are two aspects to communication.

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One is having a network of people around you where you can test out your own thoughts and ideas.

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And you need that, because many of my ideas are what I consider important to me.

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For some of them are not practical. Not vote for not show up.

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And if you like the embryonic and I'm thinking, oh, this is an idea, many of the things we've set out to do.

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I've got some real black. But that's okay, because when you talk to your small group,

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that's an important aspect of you testing out the water to Econolodge vs. the second

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argument or communication strategies once you've got your thought process right.

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You know what? Your vision. Then you've got to direct that to a wider audience.

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Something. And that's when the skill base is required.

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That's all there are two aspects to it. That I think are really important.

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Nothing. Communication is a really interesting aspect, and, you know, it's it's the job.

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I say our communication jobs, each thing is a communication job.

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You you have to communicate with the audience when you're teaching.

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It's the ultimate communication because at the end of the day, they're going to come out of that session and go,

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gosh, that was pretty good, or that was a bit boring, wasn't really listening, wasn't talking to us.

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That seemed to be rote reading of some sort of pre written agreement.

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And we've all seen lectures and sessions where we've gone jumped up with a book.

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I was really looking forward to listening to that purpose and I thought it was amazing.

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And then I listened to the lecture and it was dope.

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So teaching is an important aspect of what we do in communication, but also general practise in communication.

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You have to go and talk to people. You have to talk to them about sharing information and decision.

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And it's interesting in terms of when you start to think about communication and you get to some high level.

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For instance, when you're doing it on TV or media, you really have to then even sharpen your tools again.

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So what you're doing is pushing up the level of where your comfort zone is and then going,

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oh, now the next 30 seconds really matter in terms of what I say.

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So I've got to make a very clear, articulate point. Otherwise, people are going to go away and go, what the hell did you say?

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And what matters, Rizza, is everything. Are you being yourself? Are you comfortable?

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Are you prepared to go out there and say, I have something important to say now?

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Often what happens to us in life is there's a fear factor that comes in.

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I think it was Steve features called called the in a chimp and they only showed which sits there.

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And there are many, many people who put this. Is that that inner voice that comes up to you and says, oh, I wouldn't do that right now.

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And I wouldn't say that. And I think that's a really important aspect in your confidence.

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And at that point, that is the point.

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When you actually should be saying, I'm at the right point, I want to be,

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you know, because actually I'm feeling a bit anxious and feeling a bit tense.

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I'm about to say something that is important. But if I get it wrong, people will judge me.

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Now, that's what holds most people back, is that little bit of fear factor that says you're not going to be perfect.

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It is not going to come out as though you want it to 100 percent.

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You can't do that like.

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But what I also think then when we're children and we young and we go into these uncertain positions, we embrace them with a sense of joy and energy.

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And then as we go through life, we seem to get pulled back so that we go.

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I wouldn't go into that situation. You know what? You might lose your credibility if you now say something a bit odd.

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And I think that's an incredibly important aspect.

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The fear factor, the bit on his shoulder, is embracing that vs. actually listening to it and then saying, I won't go there.

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And I think that would be a key attribute to people who are good leaders, is they understand that that the conscious that's holding them back.

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They know how to embrace it and go, yeah, I'm right where I want to be.

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And I often have that that feeling I cannot have it sometimes before a teaching session or a big talker can go,

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you know, be a lot easier to be in the audience right now. There are a thousand people here listening to every word I'm about to say.

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I quite like to be in the back. I want to do it that way. Go right now.

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You're right where you want to be right now. Let's just relax. Can be south.

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Let's go and be clear, concise. But be yourself at that moment in time.

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Don't try and be somebody else. Do you think the audience wants to listen to.

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Very good advice. Paul, you mentioned a couple of times in in what you've told us already about the value of communication, about working in teams.

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How do you think your teams see you as a leader? Depends.

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I think it's interesting, though, as a you know, that's a piece of GDP that is is that was taught to me when I was doing my general practise,

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which I always resonate with about when you see the play.

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One of the most important things is how did the person make you feel?

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So I think seeing people is different to feeling,

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and they said one of the interesting issue is when you see patients go and make me feel a bit anxious,

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that person generally the consultation was to say, actually, there are probably many lots of people feel like the.

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And therefore, in that sense, you can get a viewpoint on the person and understand what is going on in their row.

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So generally what I'm doing is I think people can see me differently at different times.

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Sometimes they can see me as assertive. Sometimes they can see me.

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If it's easygoing, sometimes they'll be pressing the button all over it sometimes and standing back.

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But what I want them to do is what do they feel like? And I want them to be able to feel like this is a guy who supports me.

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Sometimes he'll he'll let me have a free rein. So it's like this.

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Not contacting me. What's going on? I feel like nobody's got.

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You got no clue. And other times, it's like getting a phone call out of the blue and asking you about certain things.

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And in the most important thing within the team is that people feel empowered to get on with their job.

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And once people feel empowered, my position is really start to enjoy themselves and not start to take on their own leadership roles.

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It's interesting, though, people within the team would find me differently because they'll see me differently.

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Some will find me a bit warmer than others. Some might find me a bit harsher than not.

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And I can see that. And what I'm trying to do is use my own emotional intelligence to Ghana.

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Where are we at any moment in time? What I don't think my job is to say.

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Everybody has to think I'm a he's just a nice, easygoing guy.

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You can come in and you'll get the way you want to be all the time. But I think it's that reflection emotionally.

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What I don't see is when we do these sort of clear 360-degree things,

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which are very paper driven and people seem to answer them in a sort of way that they average it, it's fine.

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I'm often talking to people to garner and feel in that situation.

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What did that go like? So everybody's. And that's really interesting because everybody's different in the team.

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That conversation I've just had with my manager. I can tell. I can sense.

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I felt stressed about it and I can feel the stress. But it's okay because I've known pushing the boundaries over here.

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I'm having a difficult conversation with somebody because actually I'm putting the work back on them and saying,

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you need to come up with a plan, not me. It's not my job. Otherwise, why am I not doing your job?

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And that's that's slightly difficult.

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And then sometimes it's just very fun and supportive because I'm like with this person, I'm like they're amazing at the job.

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They just need to keep being supported. And an across that range is about how do you feel all these times?

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But what I do do a lot of is with some of the people at some of the key times,

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I'm touching base a lot just to connect in and go if we've got this term project that's on the priority list.

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I'm touching base to say. Right. Let's get communication going.

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What we need to do is be speaking every month, maybe every two weeks is a smaller group.

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And what we're doing is we're not using the meetings. In effect, we're using them to keep the comms going.

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Whereas what I've seen teams that are dysfunctional,

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they don't speak and then they come to a meeting and they're making decisions without everybody having discussed them.

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So I think I wouldn't worry so much about how people see you, but more so.

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How does it make them feel and you feel in them interactions?

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And I the best thing for me is when I just think, oh, that person feels supported and they're getting on with their job.

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I might not know what they're doing, but I know they feel supported and they're happy.

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And and if something goes wrong, my job is to go, you know what?

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I'm taking the responsibility in effect. That's OK if we make some mistakes.

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That's what we want to do.

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And it's interesting how this world right now makes it very difficult for people to make mistakes in a way that it was easy to be on because

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you're going to get called out in so many ways through social media and the wider accountability and a very administrative environment,

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I suspect, where there is a bit of a culture that doesn't want people to make mistakes at the moment.

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Now, I'm not talking about I'm talking about mistakes where you try and do some fun and it might lose some money.

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It put a teaching scenario module out there and you run it and it loses money.

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And I go, that's OK. What was the evaluation like?

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The evaluation was great. All right. Now, let's fix fix the audience.

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How do we fix that? We've got one bit. Let's do two bits. Let's keep fixing it.

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If you go across an administrator of finance, they'll go, well, we can't run anything that loses money.

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And I know can. We can because we've got to innovate. So you'll find many things that push up against you.

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But I think that emotional intelligence is is a fundamental principle of what we do in terms of going forward.

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How does it make you feel? Yeah, no, that's that's clearly coming through what you're saying.

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And part of emotional challenge will be self awareness. I'm interested.

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So you as a leader and evidence based healthcare. There must have been times when you felt really challenged and, you know, got that self-awareness.

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So can you give us an insight. Some of those times and why you felt challenged?

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Yeah, I suspect I actually quite like going into the challenging environment.

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You know, when we first started the centre, it was too fat and insane as I came in direct.

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And so the first challenge was we had no business plan, no funding.

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And actually, it was just me and the centre manager, Rufe Davis, at the time and just started in place of somebody's been imposed for 20 years.

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And in effect, that was a point where I went, wow. And we've got to deliver all this teaching and we've got a master's programme that's failing.

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And in there, there's loads of processes of I've got to achieve all of these aims.

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And how do you go about that when you feeling really anxious and actually you don't quite have all the skills to achieve it.

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So that's the first thing you have to accept. You haven't got all the bits of the jigsaw and that's the second.

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But if you look at the planets the second bit, then it's not too easy to go.

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Actually, who's around me? You can help. Actually, there's this bright guy called Watani around.

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He is actually in a GP HCF at the moment. Maybe I go and talk to him and say, look, I've got bits of the architecture, I need some help.

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And all the time going out, going, oh, let's get a bit of a network of people, because actually we have loads to go go here.

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And actually, I'm not gonna be able to do all of this. There are bits of the job that people are far better at me than I am.

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So that's the first part. But what happens is within these situations is you start to feel uncomfortable.

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And one of the key things is it can start to pervade lots of your bits of your life, that you start your heart rate goes up.

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You feel a bit stressed. You're not sleeping quite as well.

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And in that, you suddenly start to realise the most important thing is you got to look after yourself.

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Number one. And this seems to Wendy, so people listen, it's selfish.

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Well, I go look, that if you're not healthy and fair. How can you then look after all the people and take forward a plan?

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And that was one of the key findings for me, was actually at that point was to say, right, you've got to start looking after yourself.

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So I start taking up cycling at that point and doing quite long cycling rides like two, three hours.

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And in effect, what was doing in that point was free.

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My mind tiring myself out physically, which is get me energetic and healthy for allowing my mind to relax in.

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To then think of a strategy, not Russian. Now within the eye, then it's part going forward.

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I do this in my teaching sessions. I talk about the strategy of the tortoise and the hare.

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Which everybody knows the story of the tortoise and the hare, because it goes right back to primary school.

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When we teach it and you think, why was people teaching you things like times, tables?

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All of these English rules? And they were talking to you about the tortoise and the hare, because actually it's a really important story for life.

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Because what you're doing there is saying, actually, if you're going to be successful,

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you're talking about a plan that is a tall toys that just keeps moving forward, forward, forward.

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And that's really interesting as opposed to what I see a lot of unsuccessful people in their heads doing something they tear around.

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What are you up to now? I'm interested in this six months later. How's it going?

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Oh, it didn't go quite well. I'm now on to something new and I'm going Molly.

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If it wouldn't have worked in six months, how can you solve something that problematic in such a short period of time?

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Whereas the total toys, what you do is you say, look, here's a problem and actually it's gonna take me three to five years to start making inroads.

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And if you think of it that way. But what you can't do is wait two, three years and start a project.

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That means you've got to be really urgent. On day one to kick start what's happening.

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So all the time now, I'm thinking now 12, 18 months, two years ahead, even five years ahead.

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We set in off trains, the Fords. Closing some things down.

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We're opening some things up. We've been urging about there's a real need to get the meetings in now.

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But actually, it's a total waste programme that actually it's going to be three years before it's successful.

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And I think that's the bit is recognising the impact it has in in itself.

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Going forward, there is a bit. Where I find what I find the most difficult thing.

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And I think this is for us to think about our role is when you're feeling you're being micromanaged.

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And that makes me feel wholly uncomfortable. And that's where somebody is giving you all of the responsibility.

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But not all of the control. And that puts everybody in an uncomfortable position, because if you haven't got all of the control.

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We've got all the responsibility.

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Somebody at some point will bear down on you and start saying to you, you get in that room, you should be doing it this way.

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You should be thinking about it. This will come in and start to blame you in certain situations.

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Whereas so we work really hard and I work really hard to say you've got the responsibility and you've got the control.

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You make the decisions. And I think that's an important aspect where that's the thing that makes me most uncomfortable at the moment.

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And so if somebody wants to give me all of the responsibility now but doesn't want to give me the control, I'm not gonna sign up to the deal.

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I'm going to walk away until we get to a point where I go, no, if I'm the director,

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I have control of all of these elements because I have all the responsibility.

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And I think that's an important aspect. So give it an example.

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They might say you're the director. You have all the responsibility.

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But I'm in charge of the purse strings because, well, if I want to appoint somebody, you're going to say no.

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Well, then I've not got control of the situation. And that's an important aspect of understanding, responsibility and control.

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And watch out. You need both of them if you want to take forward leadership and initiatives.

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So we've talked about teamwork. We've talked about healthy selfishness.

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You mentioned the importance of that. And we've also talked about, you know, being able to stand up for your own vision and your beliefs.

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I'm fascinated to know more about who's.

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Has anyone influenced you, your leadership style that you look to to sort of lend themselves to some of the traits that you've described already?

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Yeah, well, I'm gonna. Well, you know, everybody I'll put my dad in there in the first aspect.

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An inside look, incredibly influential. He was a guy who read a lot.

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And I think you have to be well read.

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So even, you know, in them days, you would read a paper from front to back and for an hour every day and then have some discussion or debate.

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So I think that's important. Second, it was incredibly relaxed about understanding that you don't go in when you're feeling anxious,

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the way you express it, step back and you go wait to that anxiety pass before we jump.

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And that's an important aspect because often in the same position, we can be rash and do things we regret.

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So that that's one. I don't mean a word with a lot of people.

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But then let's come to the health care scenario where we were. There's been a quite a few people that I work with, quite frail.

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All of the healthcare scenario where they've been thoughtful, interesting and helped me think about the strategy.

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Each one of them. You can see I've looked at bits out of them.

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So, you know, I had a great, great pleasure to work with dates.

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If you are met as a medical student, passionate.

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Forceful, assertive, knew what he wanted to achieve, but also was a great mentor to students and people who'd come along.

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He would always say so if somebody comes in the room with an idea where they are coming in, interested and engaged, and your job is to shake the idea.

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What if they come out of that room with their idea crushed? You've failed. And you go, Yeah.

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And I see people I went to see such a body on my idea. And he just said it was a waste of time.

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And I can never do that. Let him go out there and we might change it. You might say I wouldn't do it that way.

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But think about this. Think about that. Let him go out.

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So loads of caveats about little bits of how to go about your daily job, whether it was in have a writing day.

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Make sure you communicate important your ideas out every week.

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That was another thought process. So there's that.

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And then loads of really impressive people throughout my time in Oxford,

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whether it's people like Polglase, you know, Goldman, all of them people incredibly useful to work with.

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But I'm going to say, actually, of all the people I've worked with is there are two bits.

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I love working with students. And that's been incredibly interesting because in any project, if you work with a student,

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they're always going to say at least one thing where you go, oh, my God, there's a lightbulb just going off.

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What an amazing thing to think about. And they just often don't know, and that's our job, these as academics and professor level.

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Wow, what a great idea. Well, I never would have thought that.

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How do we now make this operation alive? So that's up to that's been important.

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The second aspect, which I also think is an important aspect of teens and I'll put this back on QVC is is what are the things

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that really makes me sort of feel we're in the right direction is that people linger and hang about in the T.

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They don't come and go, so I always look at teams when they're like when they turn the staff over every two or three years.

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I'm like, Jeez, man, the coffee must be pretty bad about it. But in there, there restroom in some way.

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But I should let people know our centre manager a decade now, same time.

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And I've just got off the phone with our discuss and I'm like, okay. Having a chat.

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She's ringing me asking is there anything I need to do today?

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And I didn't ask to ask it yourself. It's been lingering around for fifteen years now.

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Never in the team. So and then all the group of people we work with outside, we're talking decades.

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John Brassie from Trip. Tom Jefferson. Fifteen years.

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So having that group of people where you've worked and I'm not saying group thing because they're all think differently.

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And boy, some of these people difficult in the whole process of the time, you know, and that's what we want.

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But building that and having that rapport and that approach means when we bring in a new people, are we bringing in lots of student?

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Hundred and fifty students onboard. We have a team of people who reflect in thinking about the strategy.

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And I'm learning lots in that because I'm not one for doing it that way.

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That was administered great by that person. We've just got a new person.

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Join the team, administer, administered the teaching in in the undergraduate medicine.

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I'm like, wow, that person's gone. It's so much better than I got a job. I'm not sure I am.

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I've just learnt some something and I watch somebody do some teaching the other day are defo direct.

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And that was really cool. I really like that. So all of them bits are happening all the time.

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And and what I'm saying is, is it there are two bits, something happening.

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One is you're watching people who are your mentors or people you work for or anything like that.

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But I don't like that deal. And we talk about that in teaching, don't we?

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We say, look, good teachers collect material. And if it works.

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Use it. And that's what we do. I like that teaching. I'm going to steal.

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Let me use it. So there's a certain I there were a group of people who give you little bits of X,

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but you as a person have to create an environment where you have relationships with people who were good, bloody good at what you do.

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And I often think of it in terms of Steve Jobs's book because he talks about A team and B team players.

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And that's a bit dichotomous because I think everybody's on a journey.

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But generally, if you're going to be working with people who are really good at what they do,

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then you should hang onto them and hang onto their coattails, because what they're saying is you're a good person to work with, too.

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And that that 18 dynamic is what creates productivity and effective outcomes.

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And therefore, what you're looking all the time is for that fact where you go.

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Actually, if I work with this person, look at what happens. And sometimes it can become dynamic in a way that you never foresaw.

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So, for instance, in this outbreak in the Kovil outbreak, Tom Jefferson, who I've known for a long time, we worked together.

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And you worked on the reviews when we did the Tamiflu reviews and that talk from 2009 to 2014,

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five years to do publish a couple of systematic review papers.

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But boy, were they influential in what they did.

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Because two and a half years to get the data and then we had a transition where we didn't work together for quite some time but stayed in touch.

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Little bits of doing that. And then within this current outbreak of the cove, it we've talked I have talked to him daily about the issues.

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And in that we start to have a productivity of here's what we're thinking, let's disseminate our thinking.

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We're uncertain about this intervention. Let's write to open communicating.

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So it brings that dynamism together, which you can't do if he suddenly said,

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I'm going to work with somebody because this summit really important and let's start working together now.

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Having them relationships pre-existing, you've been building means when something really important comes along,

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you've got an opportunity to respond in a high quality a.T.M way.

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And I think that's important. And and in that, you'll learn a lot.

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If that person is you listening or not? I don't know. I would've looked at it differently.

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Now, I think this is interesting again. Because there's often a bit inside you.

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And people will recognise this where we go. I want all the glory.

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It should be all me now. And that's something that jumps out of all of us.

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It's the inner self if it weighs.

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And so with the bad behaviour that goes, you know, whereas when that happens to me as I cheque it and go out on a minute,

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my product will come down a notch in my seeking my my own self, actually promoting what I want to achieve for myself.

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The product will get worse. Therefore, what I'm always thinking about is the output.

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The end game. What is it we're hoping to achieve? What will be the best output?

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It's the best output is just me. Then I wouldn't join forces with somebody in the first place.

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And so I'm always thinking of what are we trying to achieve here is a really high quality product and to do that.

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I often find I can't do that on myself, on my own.

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Probably do it for a nice little talk, for a minute talk. But if I'm trying to write something really important or articulate or put an idea,

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so I'm thinking I need somebody else with me because it would be a better idea and not that be the important output.

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And then it'll come back towards and say, oh, by the way, it was wrote by you.

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So I'm just going to pick you up on that call. That's very interesting.

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So would you say then I'm just thinking about future in a Abian APHC healthcare leaders.

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I think what I'm what I'm hearing from you is the value of peer to peer support.

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You know, you mentioned some of the people you've worked with. Are you saying that no matter what position you are in your career.

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Professor Ravier, you still value that sort of peer to peer support and the opportunity to bounce ideas off people?

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I'm saying it's actually more important than what we thought,

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that more important than the little bit the bits we see from other people outside awards or the little bits where we go like that.

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Right? A lot. The way somebody do that. I'll take that. We'll try and use that word.

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But I'll give you the best example I can of this peer to peer support.

378
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One of my good friends and colleagues is Professor Rafael Pereira.

379
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:19,780
He's professor of statistics in Department of Primary. I think we are coming up to a round about I think we're in the 90s of joint apitz because.

380
00:37:19,780 --> 00:37:21,320
And that goes back now,

381
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:31,000
I think about 17 years in a production line where he was a junior statistician when I was starting as an academic clinical fellow.

382
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,950
And I just thought, wow, this guy knows so much more about stats than I know.

383
00:37:35,950 --> 00:37:41,620
I need to hang around with this guy and learn a lot of things about statistics.

384
00:37:41,620 --> 00:37:46,420
And in doing that, I used to go in and go. I'm not quite sure about this. We'd have a conversation break.

385
00:37:46,420 --> 00:37:49,850
I go, let's go down the pub and continue this conversation.

386
00:37:49,850 --> 00:37:57,040
And no, I wouldn't I wouldn't say sometimes come to the pub with us because if you don't like IBM, you don't like epidemiologists.

387
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,910
You've got to be very bored because we will sit in the pub for three or four hours,

388
00:38:00,910 --> 00:38:06,130
having few drinks, talking about ideas or trying to understand the issues.

389
00:38:06,130 --> 00:38:13,270
And I was only doing that a week ago, said 17 years in, still doing the same where I'm going.

390
00:38:13,270 --> 00:38:19,190
What about this issue of Eakins? What about this? I'm struggling with this in funding of for.

391
00:38:19,190 --> 00:38:27,280
I'm thinking about this summer. What do you think? And all of that info is it's been fantastic for 17 years.

392
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:32,080
I'm hoping he would say I've gone on to be head of one of a really large staff department.

393
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:33,840
It would have been similar,

394
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:42,490
but I think that is more important than trying to say somehow there's somebody out there is going to get me to that leadership.

395
00:38:42,490 --> 00:38:46,690
And I think it's having people with skill sets as well.

396
00:38:46,690 --> 00:38:49,710
When you think they're important and you want to know more about it.

397
00:38:49,710 --> 00:38:56,920
So it's incredibly important to me in epidemiology and EPM that I understand the quantitative aspects of what we do.

398
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:01,570
And and in doing that, I'm working with a couple of guides now in a similar coming along.

399
00:39:01,570 --> 00:39:06,730
And I'm like, wow, this is great. These guys are even bringing a new level of thinking, to my knowledge.

400
00:39:06,730 --> 00:39:10,880
And we've been working together a couple years and I'm still working in fifteen years.

401
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:23,270
It'll be around an impressive effect. And I think that stability in what you do is incredibly important to your success as a leader.

402
00:39:23,270 --> 00:39:28,400
Thank you for listening to part one of our exploring the fundamentals of leadership with Professor Carl Hennigan.

403
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:35,122
You'll be able to find part two on the evidence based healthcare podcast series.