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All right, we're recording. So my my name's Tracey Katsuo, and I am the project's rates have been the binary.

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I'm here with Mark Goldstein, who is a researcher on the project and has been undertaking some really fascinating work,

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uncovering stories to objects in the collections that many of us have never had been I had any idea about.

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So we talk about so many things today. Can we start off by Mary Lopa about who you are and why you became involved and be on the bindery?

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Yes. Yes, sir. I am a divil APHC student at Oxford and with a keen interest in museums and have kind of worked in museums in the past as well.

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So I was obviously very excited by the Beyond Binary project and wanted to definitely get involved.

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So I came on board to look into what there might be in the existing collections, how we can draw LGBTQ stories out of those, and also to see,

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you know, look into some potential objects that may be purchased or commissioned for the exhibition of interventions in the cases.

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And yet now they can't get rid of me. And we never want to.

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I must just explain for those listening that Morawetz most amazing clothes.

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Can you maybe explain your amazing outfits day? I am wearing some dungarees which pink and black.

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They have mouths all over them with teeth and I described it very well.

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Poppy, you get an idea. Very sorry, but you describe your what?

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I should have worn my eye, Gyanendra next time.

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That would be for podcast. Series to watch how everyone. Okay, so you said a little bit about what you've been doing.

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He's been researching, creating a long list for objects in the collection that might be relevant to the beyond the binary themes.

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And also looking at Numata to collect. Did you want to talk about some objects in particular that you'd been researching?

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Because you've been looking at a really broad range of locations and makes time periods.

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So what would you like to talk about? Sure.

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So I think maybe I will talk about, I guess, how I began my research of the objects I sort of started focussing on and the reason reasons why.

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So two of the routes I sort of went down and actually they are interrelated was one was to kind of look into how,

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you know, mythology's at will into specific mythologies that maybe have been taken on by contemporary activists,

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LGBTQ communities, or even those in the past, and kind of relating objects in the collections to contemporary activism via mythology.

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Because I didn't really want to impose kind of queerness on objects that weren't aren't necessarily considered queer.

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I didn't have a queer owner and LGBTQ urna, so I began looking through into kind of world mythologies and LGBT LGBTQ connexions to those mythologies.

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And the other thing that was really important to me was being from New Zealand.

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I'm sort of keenly aware of the effects of colonialism on indigenous communities.

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So I wanted to look into, you know, precolonial communities, particularly in the Pacific Islands and New Zealand areas.

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I'm sort of more familiar with and familiar with the history of.

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And to see how they might've had different ideas about gender and sexuality prior to the British or Europeans

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coming over and making horrible laws and basically being horribly racist and kind of restricting their culture,

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oppressing them and not allowing them to express these kind of sexual and gender identities.

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So and particularly when you look at cases in the rivers, such as the Cooke case, which is, you know, so it's a very lovely case.

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It's lovely to have Jackson there. But to me, the part that was missing was the fact that, you know,

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a lot of the culture was taken away and oppressed and eradicated after this first contact with Europeans.

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So that was something that was important to me. So I began looking into. Objects first from New Zealand.

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So I began looking at kind of, you know,

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sort of the there's a particular origin story in some kind of modern mythology relating to homosexuality or the modern world.

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Tuck Tapley, which is more of a number, used more as an umbrella term.

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Now for LGBTQ, I'm a queer. The original definition, which was published in an eighteen forties English sorry Maori to English dictionary,

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was an intimate companion of the same sex.

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And so I was looking at the story relating to that and seeing maybe, you know, do we have some objects that could relate to the story.

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So. This story is relating to kind of two male lovers who basically, you know,

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one was married and they, you know, they kind of had this this longing for each other.

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And so they would sit, you know, kind of either side of the water and they would play the flute to each other.

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And there were two kinds of flutes that they used. One was a koala flute and the other one was Pittodrie flute.

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So koala flute. And I put it in a flute. And they would play the flute to each other.

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And they kind of, you know, sort of while they'd already sort of, I guess, fallen in love,

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but they expressed their feelings to each other by the sound of this flute over the water.

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And so I found, you know, examples of this fits within the collections.

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And I wanted to kind of use those as sort of a symbol for this story and use them as a visual way to tell the story,

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because we obviously don't have any objects from the story itself.

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And so I started kind of looking also into the sounds that these sorts of flutes might

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make and and sort of playing recordings of them and workshops and that sort of thing.

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So people kind of really got an idea of the sound they were making it and also how it's

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related to the importance of music to the contemporary tucked up very quick community.

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There are a number of music groups and copper HULKA groups, which is kind of Maori singing groups that are queer LGBTQ.

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And that's a really important part of the kind of activism and expression.

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So that was kind of one avenue I went down.

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And then, of course, I was looking into the, you know, the other Pacific islands because again, so, you know,

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the when I should have mentioned before when I was after the Europeans came into New Zealand, they made homosexuality illegal.

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So whilst it wasn't necessarily a gay utopia prior to the Europeans, it was something that kind of,

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you know, wasn't necessarily thought of as a bad thing that, you know, it's written about in Maori texts.

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And those texts have been studied by scholars actually quite recently, well, within the past kind of 10, 20 years.

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And a scholar who I was kind of in touch with called Elizabeth Kenny Kenny.

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And she she was one that was kind of sort of leading the scholarship into the story.

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And sort of made, you know, I guess kind of discovered that actually this this myth or the story was actually kind of canon back then.

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And it wasn't that there was a different version of this kind of story where it was just a straight man and woman kind of marriage.

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So and an add on the extra bits, like, for example, the male lover and the fact that in the end they'll be one of the the men and the couple got that,

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you know, his partner to actually marry his sister.

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So they actually all lived together in a lovely sort of for a nice, you know, kind of I don't know, maybe maybe almost a polyamorous group.

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So, yes. Now, now, because of the scholarship that's been done around these very early multitracked, in fact,

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some of the some of the first written MODIS texts, because, you know, there was there was no written text prior to the Europeans.

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So, yes. So that's now kind of canon. So, again, I say, okay, so let's look into other Pacific islands.

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And there were, you know, various communities I had previously been aware of in the Pacific Islands, for example, in summer,

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the FAA and in Tonga, the faculty, which is there a different kind of descriptions of these communities in English.

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And I guess the I guess it's most often kind of seen as as a third gender kind of, you know,

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equated with maybe kind of the two spirit, obviously not the same, but kind of equate to spirit communities in North America.

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That's a tradition within, you know, some on tongue in another kind of Pacific island societies where this sort of third agenda,

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you know, actually have kind of quite high status in sight.

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Well, they especially had high status before the Europeans.

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Again, once the Europeans arrived and made horrible oppressive rules and laws and they were, you know, they weren't as highly celebrated.

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And today that they're kind of regaining their place in society, it would seem.

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I mean, there's still a lot of issues. So you're sorry to talk. So they lost the celebration element was lost, but there was still a continuity.

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In some sense. There was still a country. Yeah. I mean, they still existed, but they weren't here because prior to the Europeans.

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A lot of the people in this, ministers of Farfan, a faculty, they're actually from very high status families.

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And in fact, you know, sort of.

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Children that were were male born or a MAB, if you like, that were part of high status, families were often that weren't the firstborn.

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So they weren't going to inherit the title or the money.

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They were actually encouraged often to to sort of, I guess, transition or become one of these sort of third gender type people,

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because it was, you know, you know, good and stable life for them.

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Does that correlation between status and and I don't see that gender identity.

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Yes, exactly. So. So they were often, you know, sort of employed in very kind of, you know, high status or even kind of royal households.

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In Tonga, for example, Fucka late were often the kind of companions to, you know,

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very high, though they were often kind of quite high status women in Tonga.

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Again, that was sort of pushed down by the Europeans that often these kind of FELKEL 8a would be companions to these high status women.

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And they were very much associated with the production in Summer and Tonga with the production of bulk cloth.

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So they were known to be kind of they were they were encouraged to study the methods of creating backcloth,

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and they were considered to be very good at Creighton's good about cloth. And, you know, often their pieces were sort of prised.

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So I was yeah, I wanted to look into because there's, you know, quite an extensive collection of backcloth in the rivers.

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And again, we don't know who they belong to, whether they were made by people in these communities.

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But I wanted to kind of look at, you know, the methods of how these these pieces were made to to understand what their lives would have been like out,

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what they would have been doing with their days in creating these cloths.

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And also looking at specific about Questa, this, you know, a moaners outfit or monice dress that I'd been looking into.

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And not only is this kind of associated with these communities, do you know the skill and production of them?

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But there's also an interesting element there.

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With these kind of backcloth outfits and also various outfits relating to these sort of high status women that I was speaking about earlier,

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where you, you know, you could you had, you know, very specific types of outfits and attachments to these outfits,

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such as feathers and that sort of thing that would show that you're a certain type of person.

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So particularly as a saying, high status women. They were often kind of they were they were there were certain once these women,

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particularly in Tanger, again, who were kind of saying, oh, this is a masculine women.

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And they showed that very much through dress and through these kind of backcloth ceremonial outfits.

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And, you know, the numbers of feathers and beads and things that they had on them would sort of indicate that status.

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And there has been a fair amount of research done into actually into the the backcloth in the pit rivers' from a previous PEACHY

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researcher who has published actually some quite interesting work on these outfits and the status of these kind of women.

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Well, masculine women, as as they might say.

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And it was particularly these women that are considered to be masculine women that would not only wear these outfits,

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but also might have a faculty day as a companion.

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Yeah, I think that's really interesting because you say that some of this work has been done in the past.

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There's been some research into the Pirouz collection specifically.

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But for me, what's really important about this project is that we're trying to bring the stories into the galleries.

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So while the research might have already been done, in some senses, it hasn't found its way into the public domain.

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So I think I'm pretty excited about the work that you're doing, is that we'd be putting your research and the stories that you're uncovering alongside

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the material in the museum for beyond the beyond the duration of just the exhibition.

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I don't know. Maybe you would say about that, how you might see the legacy of your research playing out,

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which you want to say it permanently, kind of told in the gallery spaces. Obviously, we're working on a temporary exhibition.

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But what do you what would you like to see the outcome? Yeah, I hope it helps materially in the museum.

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Exactly. Because, you know, it's all very well, you know, having this kind of academic research into objects,

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into, you know, I guess the fashions and all that sort of thing.

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But the end of the day, a lot of this research is not accessible to the public.

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You know, you're not really going to go into the Pit Rivers Museum. They go, I'm going to look up what a previous piece HD researcher did on these.

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But cloths, you know, because there's nothing in the labelling to really indicate that there is this

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work based around specifically around gender and around kind of different.

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Well, can I guess, nonconforming genders. So for me, it is really, really important to have kind of permanent interventions in these galleries.

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And in particularly the case, you know, as I said before, the court case is very lovely, shiny case.

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A lot of money was put into the into that case. But I think, you know, to not have this kind of these men, the mention that, you know,

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the the oppression basically to to kind of kind of, in a way, gloss over the impressions that resulted from,

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you know, these Kuck voyages because of, you know,

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that was very much the beginning of the oppression and of the eradication of these gender and sexual identities.

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So I you know, if if I were in charge of everything, I might.

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Exactly. Probably new labels everywhere.

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And so I think for me, what's really important about this project, you know, we're looking at beyond the binary.

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Obviously, there's a focus on kind of gender and sexuality here.

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But I think, you know, the connexion between kind of querying the museum and decolonising the museum is very strong and,

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you know, without trying to kind of speak for communities that were not necessarily a part of.

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Yes, obviously we consult with these communities.

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But I think, you know, the process of acquiring the museum and questioning the museum has to be tied in with decolonising museum.

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I think you can't have one without the other.

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I like how you said how he said I can't equate a kind of querying projects or process without it being interlinked to decolonisation.

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It's all part of the same same process. And as your research is really clearly highlighted.

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Yeah, we can't be looking at ethnographic items in the collection without addressing the legacy of climate feminism to reality now.

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Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

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I mean, because, you know, when you are you you basically.

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You have. decolonise Sutton. Well, they certain aspects of the museum, when you are looking into these great histories, because the choir,

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the choir histories of the LGBTQ histories are there, but they have been cloaked and oppressed by colonialism.

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So once you kind of remove that cloak, the possibilities in the museum in terms of queerness,

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LGBTQ themed objects, so collections cases, so, so much larger.

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Because. Yeah, yeah. You're kind of seeing things from a new perspective.

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You're not seeing things from this kind of very white to British or European perspective that

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very much was in play when the museum was started and when the first objects were collected.

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So of course, they weren't going to acknowledge any of these kind of clear stories,

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the LGBTQ kind of, you know, themes of gender and sexuality when the collection started.

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So, you know, they could be, you know, so much more in the museum that we just don't know about because, you know, these histories were ignored.

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So I think it is very important, even if we're not finding objects that we know, you know, space was specifically owned by an LGBTQ queer person.

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It's really important to use these objects as kind of a visual example to show that

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these histories did exist before they were wiped out by the British and European.

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And unfortunately, because a lot of the traditions were kind of oral traditions and they weren't written down.

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You know, for example, in New Zealand, there wasn't there weren't there wasn't any written language.

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So, yeah. So all we can really do is kind of, you know,

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follow these oral traditions and kind of speak to people within these communities and sort of bring these

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stories out through the use of objects that are in the collections that we can use as kind of a visual aid,

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if you like. What do you think? So. It's quite clear why this work might be important to some of the indigenous partners that we're working with.

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Do you think the kind of value of telling this story in Oxford, in the UK, in the paper,

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this museum is so I'm I'm conscious that the majority of visitors coming through the museum might not identify as as queer?

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Well, they might not be polite to the communities that the objects come from,

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but I'm hoping that we'll still be able to power in different types of people.

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I'm engaging with this work. What do you think the power might be of having this exhibition in the period, this museum in Oxford?

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Yeah, I mean, I guess because, you know, Oxford is such a centre for, you know, not just for academia, but for, you know,

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we got a lot of tourists in Oxford as well, visiting groups, a lot of school groups and even international school groups.

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And, you know, there's also, you know, people often forget there is, you know, a large community outside the university in Oxford.

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And, you know, so it's you know,

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it's it's great to I guess there's know so many different ways that you can reach

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out to people by having an exhibition or a project like this at the Pitt Rivers.

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And, you know, by having this kind of be on the vine area, LGBTQ focus, this, you know, all sorts of possibilities to reach out to, I guess, you know,

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local communities that are often ignored by the university and by the museums and things aren't really kind of targeted to these people because,

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you know, well, stuck it out. Snobby ivory tower, I'm not sure.

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Suffice to say, though, that these amazing possibilities to kind of reach out to this communities and,

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you know, not just to reach out to them in terms of being visitors bells.

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So, you know, in terms of getting involved in the project, I'm sure whoever whoever's listening to this may have,

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you know, probably heard about the community curators and that sort of thing.

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And also as a kind of community that events such as the late night event, for example,

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and the late night events are actually a great way to bring in the community.

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But aside from that, you know, with Oxford being, you know, seen as kind of this like centre of of of,

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you know, world class leading research, LLC, I think, again, it was number one.

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Again, I think it was also it was voted O place as number one again.

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So to have, you know, a project like this in an institution that is considered to be,

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you know, a world leader, you're going to have a lot of the not just museums but,

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you know, academic institutions and all sorts of people and organisations looking to the Pitt Rivers and look into this project,

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as you know, I guess as a leader and maybe kind of, you know, it might inspire other places that aren't necessarily seen as Unisys,

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as prestigious as Oxford to kind of carry out projects like this.

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So the fact that it is in this kind of ethnographic anthropological museum, you know, that, of course,

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there have been other LGBTQ projects in museums in the U.K., but none in a museum like this.

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So it is such an important opportunity to to to use squaring the museum,

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as I saying before, to decolonise the museum and to show people that it's actually,

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you know, it's not just okay to kind of clear and decolonise a museum like this is actually what you should be doing.

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You know? It's basically I think it's I think it's a responsibility when you are, you know,

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working in an institution like that or involved or, you know, in whatever way you're involved is, I think is a responsibility, too.

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If you're not at least making efforts to decolonise the place to at least be very virtually in some ways critical or at least show people that,

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um, you know what? That they were these kind of impressions placed on.

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Well, basically every in the past by the British and the European Europeans.

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So I think it's really important to make a statement like that, Oxford as well.

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And, you know, people who aren't, you know, maybe don't add on at the museum specifically to see this exhibition, you know, don't identify as LGBTQ.

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It's amazing, you know, to to kind of maybe come on a visit to this museum, walk in expecting your kind of very traditional Victorian's done museum.

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And then you're like, wow,

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this is some amazing exhibition as a chance to learn more about the communities that are already displayed in the exhibition,

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but also to let you know, learn more about kind of contemporary communities.

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And again, once their case interventions in place,

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I think that's going to be kind of the key important thing to actually, I guess, maybe make visitors more open minded or,

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you know, maybe change their perspectives not only about, you know, LGBTQ people, but about these kind of communities that were oppressed.

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They probably might not know these stories because we only have this very kind of British version of history.

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Thank you. I'm one of the things I'm really excited about.

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This come out of your research is the opportunity for us in the museum to display historic material alongside really unexpected contemporary material.

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I've been at the museum for six years and hasn't I haven't seen much of that

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juxtaposition or linking between very contemporary material and historic material.

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For me, that's very exciting. It shows continuity. It does.

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It's quite disruptive. I think it disrupts people into thinking and stopping, imposing.

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I wanted to make the key object groupings I'm thinking about in terms of contemporary material is the common traffic light,

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which you have identified as an object for us to collect.

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Maybe you could talk a little bit about common and the historic material in the collection, but that that object despite alongside.

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Yes. So am I. Yeah. I had been doing some research into the tucked up the LGBTQ community and museum.

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And I was looking at kind of the histories of contemporary activism and also, you know,

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the importance of the tucked up way to kind of model community and, well, I guess newsier than the general.

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So I was looking to kind of the origin story involving kind of music and the two flutes and the two male lovers kind of thing that fits together.

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And then I started to look into, I guess, more recent histories of the tucked up wee community.

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And one of the first figures that came to mind for me was Carmen, who was, you know,

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some people will call her a drag queen, but essentially, you know, kind of a trans a trans woman.

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She was from the Wellington area, which is also where I'm from in New Zealand.

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So she was very well known to me. But she's not just well-known in in Wellington.

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She's well known kind of throughout the country and just particularly permanent.

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In 70s, she ran a kind of cafe club type place,

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which was essentially kind of a home for all the sort of misfits and, you know, obviously the LGBTQ community.

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But, you know, kind of anyone that sort of didn't really belong in kind of mainstream culture felt very, very welcome in her establishment.

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And she kind of did performances and that sort of thing.

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And she also sort of got involved in politics.

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So she ran for mayor and Foxygen win.

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But she she came close. And, you know, you know, her whole kind of campaign was based around LGBTQ rights.

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And she yeah, she sort of was just I can't really sort of equate toe with any kind of contemporary figure because,

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you know, she just had this this kind of status, this this kind of persona that, you know, anyone who ever met her.

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Well, sort of, you know, came in in contact with her.

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Just have you know, it's kind of amazing memories of sort of, you know, well, warm and amazing and, you know, this unique personality she had.

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And so, you know, a couple of years ago in Wellington, the the well in the city council wanted to honour common,

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you know, which which again, goes to show how important she was.

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She's not you just never forgotten and that she wasn't, you know, just important to the LGBT community, to LGBTQ community.

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She was considered to be important to the whole Wellington region, essentially.

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So they created traffic lights. Well, pedestrian crossing lights with her silhouette.

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So when you cross the streets and kind of parts of Wellington that she was particularly prominent in, for example,

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a street called Cuba Street, which is kind of the kind of a sort of alternative, I guess, street in in Wellington.

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And so the traffic lights there, you're going to be where you're going to be waiting for Carmen to go green to cross the street.

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And so, as they all would be, you know, I got very excited by this.

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And you know what? We're telling the people about it on the project.

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For example, you, Jose, is very excited.

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Ever got pretty excited about this. Is that right? We need one of these for the exhibition.

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So, yeah, just a email. The Wellington City Council. And they very kindly sent the silhouette free, not the whole traffic light, but the silhouette.

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And so, yeah, I think that's for me, that's a very exciting way to kind of connect more modern stories,

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kind of with this kind of tucked up wee mythology and history.

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And to show that actually, you know,

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despite the European oppression that the tucked up early committed members of the tucked up community still, you know,

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had this very high and important place in society and sort of really kind of,

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you know, common was almost like this mother, the mother of the community.

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And I think it's yeah, very much sort of connected to the sort of tucked up wee community.

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And you know what it's like to be part of that community and everyone's sort of looking out for each other.

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Yeah. So it's really amazing to be able to retelling that story in the pit.

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And I think I'm just talking through the objects that we're including exhibition with some rock

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meets Traitor's and some of our volunteers and the young people that come and use the museum.

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And some of them find it really affirming, really, that these stories are being highlights.

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And they've never known about that, actually. I mean, there's obviously lots of impressions.

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Do most of the coaches around queer lives?

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There are really amazing examples of celebration and victory, and I think that's really important.

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So while we're telling we've really trying to tow the cloning story and the impacts of Myanmar,

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as well as the really horrible laws and all the awful stuff that has happened and the legacy of that,

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we're also trying to talk about the victories as well, kind of balance out.

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People have lost hope and they are examples of success. So, yeah, I think Colman's really powerful for me.

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And I'm really excited that we're going to light her up to a working traffic light

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to show you success stories and really show that though that's positivity in this.

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Just one more thing I thought is also important to mention, you know, objects.

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So stories that are kind of closer to home as well.

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You know, there there are. I want to quickly mention the old witch in the bottle, because I know that is, you know, the most popular.

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Everyone comes in in the museum.

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So this object is the object most popular, one of the most popular objects of school kids, so it's something that kids go straight to and look up.

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Yes. Yeah, I thought I'd just mentioned the Whitsun bottle. You know, because I was also very much interested.

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I was drawn to this object two to one for personal interest and to you know, as Jose was saying, it is an object.

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It's going to focussed on schools. And also a lot of people come into the museum like West, the witch and the bottle.

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I want to see that. And, you know, it's not it's not actually the display displayed particularly prominently.

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There's not a huge amount of labelling that goes with it either. And so I was very intrigued by this object.

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And I you know, I had always known that was a very strong connexion between witchcraft and the queer community.

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And, you know, particularly in kind of a queer sort of pop culture and that sort of thing.

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But I knew that that was kind of a long history. And also, you know, the fact that that people women that were persecuted as witches, you know,

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were often persecuted, which is for other reasons like, you know, being gender nonconforming or being a lesbian.

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So I thought, oh, yeah, yeah, we could tell some stories about that by using Elsa.

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Well, what's a good witchy object. Which in a bottle. But then as I kind of actually read into the details,

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I realised that actually the subject was collected by Margaret Murray in 1959 and Margaret Murray was an Egyptologist

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and a folklorist that you had already been kind of familiar with through kind of my background and archaeology.

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And so I was like, oh, wow. School was collected by Margaret Murray.

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There's a interesting history there with Margaret Murray. And actually contemporary LGBT activism.

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And so, you know, Margaret, I developed this kind of which cult theory, this Murray idea, which called theory.

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And within that, she was you know,

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she basically developed this very elaborate theory about this idea of what she thought this witchcraft might have been in the past.

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You know, saying actually, you know, these these witches were real. These are the kind of rituals they were undertaking.

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There was you know, it was all it was. You know, you're drawing elements from all sorts of kind of pagan traditions,

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you know, including classical, including one's more close to home British.

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You know, Drew, it's all all sorts of things. And also she she's talking about, you know, particular figures like Joan of Arc who,

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you know, misuses sort of saying was, you know, a martyr for the cause,

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not not for the Christian cause, but actually for because of witchcraft and also for the cause of,

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you know, even just being just of gender nonconforming. So, you know, that's what she was saying.

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Basically, that's that's what she was a martyr for.

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So this these ideas were taken out kind of late in the 60s and 70s.

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One example is Arthur Evans book, Witchcraft and the Gay Counterculture, which basically,

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you know, kind of elaborated on on her ideas, you know, change change things a little bit.

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But yes, it is her ideas, this marryat, which goes there is a basis and then looked into further detail, into figures like Joan of Arc.

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But again, pushing that further and, you know, sort of saying basically, either they were.

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Allegedly, though, LGBTQ in some way, either gay, maybe trans, gender nonconforming.

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And basically saying, you know, you should if you're gay, you should be a.

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Just had to hey, you know, that it was kind of this sort of natural connexion between the two and that there was this kind of real power in it.

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And from that but that publication and other similar publications. A lot of activism kind of grew out of that.

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And a lot of activism was based in rituals. So they were sort of, you know, you know, things like sort of dance circles.

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And that's something that almost kind of mimic the sort of contemporary or not mimic but inspired.

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This is the great that inspired through these content like flashmob activism and that sort of thing.

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You know, it's I just find it so interesting that, you know, it this kind of 70s LGBT activism that has know very much influence.

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The activism that we have today was in turn influenced by these ideas about witchcraft and ritual.

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And so this kind of you know, there are there are reasons for these connexion between queerness and kind of witchcraft.

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A lot of people don't know the reasons they feel, you know, particularly jaunting.

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I never I was always kind of drawn to to witchcraft and paganism and Wicca.

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And I hadn't really known why. And there is actually a very good reason for it.

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So I just wanted to speak about about the about the witch and the bottle and kind of objects outclassed him because,

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you know, there are objects, you know, even from the UK or their histories from,

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you know, from the UK of of of of queerness and, you know,

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LGBTQ histories and being gender nonconforming that were also, you know, oppressed within this country as well.

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So I think what we've kind of found show in the exhibition is that oppression from KLC and patriarchy is universal.

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Right. So you even think what we've picked an expression sightly is that even if you don't know you're affected by plays and you.

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Oh, yes. You know, using the very local objects.

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When it comes to Sussex is like the witch in the book. Very MSE objects to talk with ICRA refocusing.

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And I'd like to advocate for a flashmob interpretation of this object.

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So that's something that you get even if it's just me.

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I will do. Exactly. Amazing.

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Thank you so much for talking about your research, Mara. And yeah, everyone must come and listen.

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I look at the expression and I might feel to discover lies of new narratives about the purpose.

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And I think that when we look to them rightfully.