My name is Olivia Sharat. I'm the Bee beyond the binary collections exhibitions officer,
and I'm here with Lance Miller to learn about the material they're creating for the Beyond the Binary exhibition.
Hi, Larry. Thank you for talking me to today and for giving me the platform through the Pat Rovers.
My pleasure. It's great to have you here.
Firstly, can you introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about why you've got involved with B on the binary as a community creator?
Well, I've lived in Oxford for seven years now, and although some aspects of particularly the university community have been quite exclusive,
in my opinion and my experience, I've always found the museum to be really welcoming.
And I think the staff who are working there at the moment are making huge differences to the release of
narrowly focussed colonial views of a lot of the communities represented through the objects displayed there.
And I really wanted to work with those amazing members of staff to try and add a bit of a different perspective.
So how have you been involved with the project? So I've had the opportunity to make two different displays with relatively little overlap.
So one of the displays is looking at different objects related to Christianity in Western Europe and how there have been
different attitudes towards partner bodies and gender to the very strict attitudes that are often portrayed as a saint,
as part of the Christian mindset. And personally, I was raised Catholic, and that's part of my background in my community.
And I really wanted to show that actually ordinary people of faith are tolerant and friendly and
welcoming and sometimes can just be hampered by the same stereotypes that queer people are.
And I suppose just to promote a positive attitude towards everyone, to give them the benefit of the doubt and not to say up animosities and.
Yeah. And I've also had the chance to to work on a display relating to gender transition as well,
and particularly the social aspect of that to really showcase how it affects people's emotions in their everyday lives outside of the medical aspect,
which is covered much more in mainstream media. Amazing lumps.
Yeah. That's really interesting. Could you describe to our visitors the objects you've been researching and curating for the exhibition?
So one of the main objects that I've curated has been a figure of Mary.
So the Virgin Mary, who is the mother of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
I think it was really important to me to try and show a different side of Mary.
No, as an image of womanhood that's been controlled by male patriarchy, but as a really power empowering figure,
that woman of faith can actually reclaim and and sort of use her as a springboard
to say there's a lot about faith and faith history that really progressive,
tolerant people of faith can claim as part of their identity.
It's not all about persecution. Yeah, absolutely.
And that has been really important for the expression to have that different perspective that we wouldn't have brought in otherwise.
So an amazing videos.
Tell me a little bit about why you chose talk about the object and what it means to you and what sort of stories the objects help you to tell.
So I think it's really important to these to me about these objects is that they really reflect ordinary people's lives.
And you can really see that when you look at the figure of Mary or the votive offering of the angel, that they're small objects, they're personal.
They would have been owned by people who didn't have enormous socioeconomic standing.
And that sort of that voice in in any community really isn't often.
Given the chance to be put to the forefront and the a lot of the time in discussions around faith and queer identities,
the focus is on what whoever the doctrine is interpreting the scriptures.
But actually, there's so much more to religion than that.
It's also about how ordinary people interpret the scriptures, and that serves to be spoken about as well.
And there is increasing evidence that people of all faiths, including faith, like Catholicism,
that traditionally have had a very intolerant reputation, are increasingly embracing acceptance and.
We'll be happy to welcome people and their faith, welcome people into their communities who identify as LGBT.
To give people who are already in those communities the chance to be honest and open about their identity.
So I really wanted these objects to be on display to.
Give solidarity and power to these ordinary people are absolutely amazing.
Yeah. I think yeah.
For me. Be able to have that narrative within the exhibition is going to be really powerful because I feel often it's quite a
controversial subject that people are quite afraid of bringing up because both sides do have these strong feelings.
And it's really nice to hear you having the courage to come forward and bring that narrative
together to combine those two different parties that maybe not so different after all.
And it's quite nice just to hear that. Well, I think a lot of the time where we're given a binary narrative,
we're given the narrative that we can respect people's religious beliefs or we can respect people's sexuality and gender and we can't have both.
But I think in ethics and in life, choices rarely are that binary.
And I'm hoping to sort of an increase the space where we can say it's not that rigid.
It doesn't have to be. That's amazing.
So what would you say the most important thing you'd like listeners to know about the object of your research or the project would be?
I think what I would most like to get across through this display is that.
Nothing is static. That we don't have to accept narratives, that things have always been a certain way or always need to be a certain way.
And I don't mean to say that to erode people's beliefs and lived experiences in the moment, but.
To empower people to. Have the opportunity to stay with their own lived experiences.
But to question them at the same time that we don't have to reject and destroy the past and certain communities in order to move forwards.
And I think that I think that having these historical items really showcases that because there are lots of
different elements of Christianity that some of which were actually more accepting or might be controversial now.
But hopefully I can show that people's faith has remained consistent and strong
and that we shouldn't be afraid that faith has to be sidelined or eroded.
Because of the changing world that it takes place and not. Amazing.
Yeah. What for you has been the most interesting part of the project or that you found surprising about it while doing it?
I think for me, the most interesting part has really been seeing the response from the from staff and other curators that really seemed
to value my viewpoint when at times I felt like I didn't have that much to offer and that my story wasn't unique enough.
And I really if it's really helped me see that everyone potentially has a unique story, everyone is at an intersection of identities.
And there are people who who value that no matter where you are.
And identity spectrum's. Absolutely.
Yeah. I think what's going to be really important for this exhibition is just knowing you don't have to be
one by new or the other at a really extreme sense to know that your value is really appreciated.
Brilliant. And is there anything else you'd like to cover in regards to this?
While we're speaking, I think I'd particularly like to say that, you know.
My own experience is so specific, Budd's.
Is the more I find out about, you know, my heritage,
my Catholic heritage also makes me really curious about people of all faiths, other denominations.
And I hope that my very specific story can help validate others.
And also that I just love to find out about these stories.
So, you know, looking into my own heritage has also really opened me up and hopefully given me the the ability
and the skills to try and find out more about others as well and and help empower them,
if I can. That would be amazing. Yeah. Oh, that would be such a good outcome for people who come into the exhibition.
And yeah, imagine if that does. And yeah, I really hope it does.
It just grand. So I'm going to sway the conversation now because I know there's another part of the exhibition that you are also a curator of.
Would you like to introduce that? So I'm really excited for this.
OK, so the me at the core of this display is a mannequin that is decorated with clothing,
but also with items that reflect the way people express themselves in an everyday expression of their gender.
And a lot of these items are from the trans community or inspired by the trans community.
And I think they really represent. The conflict between social expectations and the sort of performance that creates the sometimes.
Makes it really difficult for trons and non binary people to.
Balance being themselves and presenting the way they would want to be in a society where they would automatically be accepted for who they are,
but also trying to get themselves to a point where they're getting polls,
a safe feedback and they're being seen for who they are byelaws in this society.
And just the dissonance that that creates in people's lives.
Absolutely. And I think for me, the trends manakin is hopefully going to be a real way for people.
Is it like the right expression, say, like, is demystifying trends?
For people who may not have come into contact with trans people and don't know much about what it means to be friends and just to get a sense that.
This this is a really everyday thing. It's not something that's meant to be sensationalist or anything like that.
Yeah. What were your thoughts on that kind of. Well, I know from my personal experience that.
I find it really difficult sort of growing up and transitioning sort of just around the trons tipping point because.
Even though I was having these thoughts that I wasn't happy with my gender,
a really big limitation to me was that I didn't look like trans people in the media.
You know, I didn't have that really well defined set of pegs and abs.
I couldn't think of anyone I'd seen even in really queer, friendly media who looked just or to their a nondescript like me.
And I felt like. It was very difficult for me to accept my gender.
It was difficult for me to to feel welcome in trons spaces because I just felt like I wasn't trons enough.
So it was only when I met a close friend who.
Was an amazing woman who made no effort to appeal to what other people might think.
A woman as or does or appears to be. And she really helped me to accept myself.
And I'd like to try and show not just people who might identify as trans or non binary,
but to show everyone that gender doesn't have to be a performance for someone else.
That it's so nuanced and it's so personal that, you know, there are people who see about and value.
Don't judge your gender. If you are being authentically you.
Wow. Yeah, really well. Well said, I think.
Oh, wow. Yeah, absolutely. And I guess my next question is really around the people who have learnt that.
Clothes to be on the trans mannequin. If you can describe what would that be like for them to have their clothes in an exhibition like that?
Is this a big deal for them? Would you say one thing?
Something that a lot of people experience, particularly in this of.
Trans masculine spectrum is that or a known binary as well, is that it's really difficult to find validation because it's so hard to pass.
And I think I think the something that would have really helped me when I was trans,
I should say, would be to have a story that wasn't framed in the context of passing.
It's not about being immediately identifiable as male or female or exactly in between.
It's just about expression and about acknowledging.
But that expression can be interpreted in different ways.
There are no clear cut single signals to be looking out for us as a friend, as a passer by.
But to really be open to that and accept that and to accept within yourself that you can't know someone else's gender.
And I think in a lot of ways. That's what certain members of the trans community are looking for.
They're looking not to be known as who they are and their life story.
Immediately. But to be given the openness to self define.
To have that space to.
Really be in control of how they're perceived.
And I think that that's been a motivation for for people donating.
Is this idea that it's not about donating your most feminine dress or your most masculine tuxedo so that you can prove you fit within the binary?
It's about. Being taken at your word.
That's so true. Yeah, I think that's a really integral part of the project as well.
Would there be anything else that you wanted to add about the trans manakin or any part of the project, for that matter?
I think one thing that I would like to add sort of self consciously as a white British
person is that when I was doing some research in the community for the trans manakin,
something that came through again and again is that.
There is an extra pressure and an extra difficulty for people of colour with regards to their gender presentation and how they're perceived by others,
because not only are they expected to conform to very Western standards of physical attire, but also in terms of body shapes and styles as well.
And I think that. I think it's really opened my eyes to that enormous extra pressure of body image that exists for people of colour.
And although I know about something that won't ever be part of my life experience,
I hope that looking at the mannequin and the interpretation that goes alongside,
it will give people the opportunity to consider how that affects people today.
And that's actually just give me an idea for something,
because when when we were talking with the technicians about how to present the trans mannequin,
one of the big details we quickly realised was something we'd have to make a decision on was the actual mannequin itself,
because ironically, the mannequins available to either purchase or work with are very binary.
You got a male mannequin or a female body mannequin.
And then again, like you say, the colour the mannequin mannequin is something that you do have to think about carefully,
because that says a lot as well. And so I was just wondering.
Because I know that you were thinking with a trans mannequin that is not specifically present in one body type and try
and like define it with the decision around what what body to go with or whether it's just a dressmaker's mannequin.
You're actually trying to get people to question why they'd want to see it as a specific gender.
And that was something that really interested me when I was reading your interpretation of the mannequin and thinking,
actually, yeah, why am I expecting this to be a man or a woman?
What would you add to that? I think we all use gendered language.
Not just to describe people we know, but I feel like a lot of our internal language is gendered.
You know, a lot of languages in the world have gender nouns.