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My name is Olivia Sharat. I'm the Bee beyond the binary collections exhibitions officer,

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and I'm here with Lance Miller to learn about the material they're creating for the Beyond the Binary exhibition.

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Hi, Larry. Thank you for talking me to today and for giving me the platform through the Pat Rovers.

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My pleasure. It's great to have you here.

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Firstly, can you introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about why you've got involved with B on the binary as a community creator?

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Well, I've lived in Oxford for seven years now, and although some aspects of particularly the university community have been quite exclusive,

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in my opinion and my experience, I've always found the museum to be really welcoming.

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And I think the staff who are working there at the moment are making huge differences to the release of

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narrowly focussed colonial views of a lot of the communities represented through the objects displayed there.

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And I really wanted to work with those amazing members of staff to try and add a bit of a different perspective.

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So how have you been involved with the project? So I've had the opportunity to make two different displays with relatively little overlap.

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So one of the displays is looking at different objects related to Christianity in Western Europe and how there have been

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different attitudes towards partner bodies and gender to the very strict attitudes that are often portrayed as a saint,

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as part of the Christian mindset. And personally, I was raised Catholic, and that's part of my background in my community.

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And I really wanted to show that actually ordinary people of faith are tolerant and friendly and

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welcoming and sometimes can just be hampered by the same stereotypes that queer people are.

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And I suppose just to promote a positive attitude towards everyone, to give them the benefit of the doubt and not to say up animosities and.

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Yeah. And I've also had the chance to to work on a display relating to gender transition as well,

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and particularly the social aspect of that to really showcase how it affects people's emotions in their everyday lives outside of the medical aspect,

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which is covered much more in mainstream media. Amazing lumps.

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Yeah. That's really interesting. Could you describe to our visitors the objects you've been researching and curating for the exhibition?

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So one of the main objects that I've curated has been a figure of Mary.

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So the Virgin Mary, who is the mother of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

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I think it was really important to me to try and show a different side of Mary.

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No, as an image of womanhood that's been controlled by male patriarchy, but as a really power empowering figure,

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that woman of faith can actually reclaim and and sort of use her as a springboard

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to say there's a lot about faith and faith history that really progressive,

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tolerant people of faith can claim as part of their identity.

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It's not all about persecution. Yeah, absolutely.

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And that has been really important for the expression to have that different perspective that we wouldn't have brought in otherwise.

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So an amazing videos.

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Tell me a little bit about why you chose talk about the object and what it means to you and what sort of stories the objects help you to tell.

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So I think it's really important to these to me about these objects is that they really reflect ordinary people's lives.

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And you can really see that when you look at the figure of Mary or the votive offering of the angel, that they're small objects, they're personal.

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They would have been owned by people who didn't have enormous socioeconomic standing.

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And that sort of that voice in in any community really isn't often.

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Given the chance to be put to the forefront and the a lot of the time in discussions around faith and queer identities,

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the focus is on what whoever the doctrine is interpreting the scriptures.

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But actually, there's so much more to religion than that.

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It's also about how ordinary people interpret the scriptures, and that serves to be spoken about as well.

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And there is increasing evidence that people of all faiths, including faith, like Catholicism,

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that traditionally have had a very intolerant reputation, are increasingly embracing acceptance and.

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We'll be happy to welcome people and their faith, welcome people into their communities who identify as LGBT.

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To give people who are already in those communities the chance to be honest and open about their identity.

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So I really wanted these objects to be on display to.

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Give solidarity and power to these ordinary people are absolutely amazing.

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Yeah. I think yeah.

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For me. Be able to have that narrative within the exhibition is going to be really powerful because I feel often it's quite a

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controversial subject that people are quite afraid of bringing up because both sides do have these strong feelings.

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And it's really nice to hear you having the courage to come forward and bring that narrative

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together to combine those two different parties that maybe not so different after all.

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And it's quite nice just to hear that. Well, I think a lot of the time where we're given a binary narrative,

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we're given the narrative that we can respect people's religious beliefs or we can respect people's sexuality and gender and we can't have both.

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But I think in ethics and in life, choices rarely are that binary.

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And I'm hoping to sort of an increase the space where we can say it's not that rigid.

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It doesn't have to be. That's amazing.

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So what would you say the most important thing you'd like listeners to know about the object of your research or the project would be?

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I think what I would most like to get across through this display is that.

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Nothing is static. That we don't have to accept narratives, that things have always been a certain way or always need to be a certain way.

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And I don't mean to say that to erode people's beliefs and lived experiences in the moment, but.

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To empower people to. Have the opportunity to stay with their own lived experiences.

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But to question them at the same time that we don't have to reject and destroy the past and certain communities in order to move forwards.

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And I think that I think that having these historical items really showcases that because there are lots of

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different elements of Christianity that some of which were actually more accepting or might be controversial now.

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But hopefully I can show that people's faith has remained consistent and strong

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and that we shouldn't be afraid that faith has to be sidelined or eroded.

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Because of the changing world that it takes place and not. Amazing.

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Yeah. What for you has been the most interesting part of the project or that you found surprising about it while doing it?

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I think for me, the most interesting part has really been seeing the response from the from staff and other curators that really seemed

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to value my viewpoint when at times I felt like I didn't have that much to offer and that my story wasn't unique enough.

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And I really if it's really helped me see that everyone potentially has a unique story, everyone is at an intersection of identities.

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And there are people who who value that no matter where you are.

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And identity spectrum's. Absolutely.

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Yeah. I think what's going to be really important for this exhibition is just knowing you don't have to be

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one by new or the other at a really extreme sense to know that your value is really appreciated.

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Brilliant. And is there anything else you'd like to cover in regards to this?

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While we're speaking, I think I'd particularly like to say that, you know.

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My own experience is so specific, Budd's.

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Is the more I find out about, you know, my heritage,

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my Catholic heritage also makes me really curious about people of all faiths, other denominations.

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And I hope that my very specific story can help validate others.

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And also that I just love to find out about these stories.

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So, you know, looking into my own heritage has also really opened me up and hopefully given me the the ability

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and the skills to try and find out more about others as well and and help empower them,

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if I can. That would be amazing. Yeah. Oh, that would be such a good outcome for people who come into the exhibition.

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And yeah, imagine if that does. And yeah, I really hope it does.

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It just grand. So I'm going to sway the conversation now because I know there's another part of the exhibition that you are also a curator of.

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Would you like to introduce that? So I'm really excited for this.

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OK, so the me at the core of this display is a mannequin that is decorated with clothing,

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but also with items that reflect the way people express themselves in an everyday expression of their gender.

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And a lot of these items are from the trans community or inspired by the trans community.

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And I think they really represent. The conflict between social expectations and the sort of performance that creates the sometimes.

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Makes it really difficult for trons and non binary people to.

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Balance being themselves and presenting the way they would want to be in a society where they would automatically be accepted for who they are,

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but also trying to get themselves to a point where they're getting polls,

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a safe feedback and they're being seen for who they are byelaws in this society.

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And just the dissonance that that creates in people's lives.

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Absolutely. And I think for me, the trends manakin is hopefully going to be a real way for people.

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Is it like the right expression, say, like, is demystifying trends?

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For people who may not have come into contact with trans people and don't know much about what it means to be friends and just to get a sense that.

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This this is a really everyday thing. It's not something that's meant to be sensationalist or anything like that.

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Yeah. What were your thoughts on that kind of. Well, I know from my personal experience that.

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I find it really difficult sort of growing up and transitioning sort of just around the trons tipping point because.

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Even though I was having these thoughts that I wasn't happy with my gender,

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a really big limitation to me was that I didn't look like trans people in the media.

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You know, I didn't have that really well defined set of pegs and abs.

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I couldn't think of anyone I'd seen even in really queer, friendly media who looked just or to their a nondescript like me.

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And I felt like. It was very difficult for me to accept my gender.

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It was difficult for me to to feel welcome in trons spaces because I just felt like I wasn't trons enough.

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So it was only when I met a close friend who.

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Was an amazing woman who made no effort to appeal to what other people might think.

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A woman as or does or appears to be. And she really helped me to accept myself.

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And I'd like to try and show not just people who might identify as trans or non binary,

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but to show everyone that gender doesn't have to be a performance for someone else.

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That it's so nuanced and it's so personal that, you know, there are people who see about and value.

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Don't judge your gender. If you are being authentically you.

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Wow. Yeah, really well. Well said, I think.

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Oh, wow. Yeah, absolutely. And I guess my next question is really around the people who have learnt that.

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Clothes to be on the trans mannequin. If you can describe what would that be like for them to have their clothes in an exhibition like that?

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Is this a big deal for them? Would you say one thing?

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Something that a lot of people experience, particularly in this of.

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Trans masculine spectrum is that or a known binary as well, is that it's really difficult to find validation because it's so hard to pass.

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And I think I think the something that would have really helped me when I was trans,

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I should say, would be to have a story that wasn't framed in the context of passing.

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It's not about being immediately identifiable as male or female or exactly in between.

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It's just about expression and about acknowledging.

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But that expression can be interpreted in different ways.

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There are no clear cut single signals to be looking out for us as a friend, as a passer by.

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But to really be open to that and accept that and to accept within yourself that you can't know someone else's gender.

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And I think in a lot of ways. That's what certain members of the trans community are looking for.

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They're looking not to be known as who they are and their life story.

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Immediately. But to be given the openness to self define.

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To have that space to.

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Really be in control of how they're perceived.

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And I think that that's been a motivation for for people donating.

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Is this idea that it's not about donating your most feminine dress or your most masculine tuxedo so that you can prove you fit within the binary?

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It's about. Being taken at your word.

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That's so true. Yeah, I think that's a really integral part of the project as well.

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Would there be anything else that you wanted to add about the trans manakin or any part of the project, for that matter?

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I think one thing that I would like to add sort of self consciously as a white British

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person is that when I was doing some research in the community for the trans manakin,

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something that came through again and again is that.

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There is an extra pressure and an extra difficulty for people of colour with regards to their gender presentation and how they're perceived by others,

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because not only are they expected to conform to very Western standards of physical attire, but also in terms of body shapes and styles as well.

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And I think that. I think it's really opened my eyes to that enormous extra pressure of body image that exists for people of colour.

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And although I know about something that won't ever be part of my life experience,

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I hope that looking at the mannequin and the interpretation that goes alongside,

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it will give people the opportunity to consider how that affects people today.

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And that's actually just give me an idea for something,

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because when when we were talking with the technicians about how to present the trans mannequin,

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one of the big details we quickly realised was something we'd have to make a decision on was the actual mannequin itself,

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because ironically, the mannequins available to either purchase or work with are very binary.

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You got a male mannequin or a female body mannequin.

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And then again, like you say, the colour the mannequin mannequin is something that you do have to think about carefully,

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because that says a lot as well. And so I was just wondering.

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Because I know that you were thinking with a trans mannequin that is not specifically present in one body type and try

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and like define it with the decision around what what body to go with or whether it's just a dressmaker's mannequin.

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You're actually trying to get people to question why they'd want to see it as a specific gender.

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And that was something that really interested me when I was reading your interpretation of the mannequin and thinking,

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actually, yeah, why am I expecting this to be a man or a woman?

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What would you add to that? I think we all use gendered language.

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Not just to describe people we know, but I feel like a lot of our internal language is gendered.

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You know, a lot of languages in the world have gender nouns.