1
00:00:06,380 --> 00:00:13,760
OK, let's make a start. Thank you very much for joining us today for the latest in our mental wellness series brought to you by

2
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:19,310
the Department of Experimental Psychology here in the University of Oxford at my name's Kathy Creswell,

3
00:00:19,310 --> 00:00:28,970
and I'm delighted to introduce you today to Professor Daniel Freeman, who's going to be talking to us about overcoming mistrust and paranoia.

4
00:00:28,970 --> 00:00:34,430
And we're going to have a short talk from Daniel and then I'll introduce you to the other members of our panel here.

5
00:00:34,430 --> 00:00:38,630
Thanks to those of you who submitted questions, which our panel will be discussing.

6
00:00:38,630 --> 00:00:42,380
Before we get started, though, just wanted to give you a couple of reminders.

7
00:00:42,380 --> 00:00:47,150
So this is part of a series that we've now had a number of talks over the last year.

8
00:00:47,150 --> 00:00:55,550
So please do at the Department of Experimental Psychology website or our YouTube channel to watch back previous talks with some fantastic ones,

9
00:00:55,550 --> 00:01:02,870
including sessions on coping with trauma disorders, depression and low mood sleep problems, stress and anxiety.

10
00:01:02,870 --> 00:01:10,670
And our next session will be on bullying and anxiety. And that will be on the 3rd of June at 10:00 a.m. So please do join us then.

11
00:01:10,670 --> 00:01:16,190
Also, just a reminder that obviously we are talking about subjects that can be difficult for people.

12
00:01:16,190 --> 00:01:20,930
So we deliberately set all of our sessions that there are no more than 45 minutes long.

13
00:01:20,930 --> 00:01:27,710
And hopefully that means you get the opportunity for a little bit of a break before your next appointment or activity or commitment.

14
00:01:27,710 --> 00:01:36,200
So we'd like to really encourage you to use that time to step away and help anyone to chat to you if you need it.

15
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:43,160
But just to give yourself a little bit of a break or thinking space before you move on to the next thing.

16
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,240
But without further ado, I'm going to now hand over to Daniel Freeman.

17
00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,860
And Daniel is professor of clinical psychology in the Department of Psychiatry and the

18
00:01:51,860 --> 00:01:56,750
fellow at University College and also a consultant clinical psychologist in Oxford Health.

19
00:01:56,750 --> 00:02:03,290
And we're really looking forward to. Thanks very much for joining us. Thank you, Kathy, and welcome, everyone.

20
00:02:03,290 --> 00:02:15,330
It's a delight to have you join us. So.

21
00:02:15,330 --> 00:02:21,120
Bedrock of our daily life is trust.

22
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:26,170
We need to trust that it's safe to step out the front door.

23
00:02:26,170 --> 00:02:34,280
That the people around us, when we walk down the street, we're going to shop, will treat us well if we use our credit cards in a shop,

24
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:42,130
if you're on a bicycle, that motorists won't deliberately try to knock us off, that we can share confidences with friends and colleagues.

25
00:02:42,130 --> 00:02:49,390
And our route home at the end of the day is safe.

26
00:02:49,390 --> 00:02:59,110
We, to a degree, need to trust the people that we see and also people that we don't see because otherwise we won't be able to do anything.

27
00:02:59,110 --> 00:03:10,520
And as Graham Greene put it, it is impossible to go through life without trust, that is, to be imprisoned in the worst cell of all oneself.

28
00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:16,760
Without trust, the only person you can truly be with is yourself, and that's not good for your psychological health.

29
00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:22,800
It also means your life becomes restricted and that's bad for your physical health.

30
00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:30,170
And there's evidence the mistrust associated with high blood pressure, heart problems and diabetes.

31
00:03:30,170 --> 00:03:37,190
But of course, you might say that if you just trust everyone, naturally, you're being naive, gullible, credulous and easy touch wet behind the ears,

32
00:03:37,190 --> 00:03:43,850
showing a wide eyed innocence to the world because there are people out there with bad intentions and bad behaviours.

33
00:03:43,850 --> 00:03:56,400
Mistrust is not always misplaced. We have to find a balance between trust, mistrust, and, of course, that can vary between person, place and time.

34
00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:02,250
But what I do think is that overall in our society environment, there's been for a while now a gnawing away,

35
00:04:02,250 --> 00:04:08,730
an erosion of trust between people rather than a growth of trust in our society.

36
00:04:08,730 --> 00:04:14,670
I just want to sort of pick out a few pertinent examples that start off with first about vaccines,

37
00:04:14,670 --> 00:04:18,480
which are obviously crucial at the moment, because that's the way of the current crisis.

38
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:24,180
We did a survey back in October last year looking at sort of conspiracy beliefs around vaccines,

39
00:04:24,180 --> 00:04:28,740
for example, that the safety data or effectiveness effectiveness data are made up.

40
00:04:28,740 --> 00:04:35,940
And what we showed, around 20 percent of the population, UK adult population endorses these beliefs to some extent,

41
00:04:35,940 --> 00:04:40,290
but also about one in four, 25 percent of people are neutral about this.

42
00:04:40,290 --> 00:04:44,500
They don't agree or disagree with these sorts of ideas.

43
00:04:44,500 --> 00:04:52,630
And you can see the sort of form of mistrust that concerns about science, also in general, official explanations about the pandemic.

44
00:04:52,630 --> 00:05:00,880
So, for example, I believe that the virus is a hoax. Only 72 percent of the population do not agree with that.

45
00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:07,180
Well, you've got another 20 percent agreeing with that or being unsure about those ideas.

46
00:05:07,180 --> 00:05:11,770
Only half the population, adult population, according to this survey,

47
00:05:11,770 --> 00:05:17,470
do not agree with the idea of the virus spread as a deliberate attempt to reduce the size of the global population.

48
00:05:17,470 --> 00:05:25,240
And again, only 70 percent agree that I don't agree with the idea that the vaccine to be used to current mass sterilisation.

49
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:34,750
So you're seeing this obvious mistrust of official explanations and misinformation taking root and said and of course,

50
00:05:34,750 --> 00:05:41,320
that's probably not surprising because we've had a long period now what even facts are attacked.

51
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:48,070
And in 2016, the Oxford Dictionary declared post truth is international word of the word of the year,

52
00:05:48,070 --> 00:05:57,750
reflecting what it called a highly charged political 12 months. Heaven knows how they would describe the subsequent to that.

53
00:05:57,750 --> 00:06:07,650
And there was a powerful bit in Joe Biden's inaugural speech where he said there is truth and there are lies, lies tough for power and for profit.

54
00:06:07,650 --> 00:06:16,530
And each of us has a duty and responsibilities as citizens, as Americans and as leaders to defend the truth and defeat the lies.

55
00:06:16,530 --> 00:06:22,320
Powerful, but also startling that needs to be said.

56
00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:27,460
Now, I focussed on a particular for mistrust, paranoia, where people have unfounded ideas,

57
00:06:27,460 --> 00:06:32,180
others are deliberately trying to harm them, they're being targeted.

58
00:06:32,180 --> 00:06:41,420
Now, when I started working this area in the 1990s, paranoia was primarily thought of as a symptom of mental health disorders such as schizophrenia.

59
00:06:41,420 --> 00:06:46,220
And I have a vivid memory of the first patient home visit I did. A nurse told me that whatever I do,

60
00:06:46,220 --> 00:06:52,580
I shouldn't knock on the front door of the patient I was going to see because he was think it's his persecutors come to kill him.

61
00:06:52,580 --> 00:06:56,690
So what I had to do was scramble around the bins and through the bushes to a side

62
00:06:56,690 --> 00:07:02,930
window to tap three times like I felt like a burglar who must have looked like one.

63
00:07:02,930 --> 00:07:07,640
But when he answered, when I spoke to him, it was very apparent was how anxious he was.

64
00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:14,870
And his defence has gone up and it restricted his life, rather like in the Graham Greene quote.

65
00:07:14,870 --> 00:07:20,660
And if you think of paranoia as a form of anxiety, then it becomes much more understandable.

66
00:07:20,660 --> 00:07:24,980
It also makes you think that there'll be mild variance in the population at that time.

67
00:07:24,980 --> 00:07:32,000
And it wasn't really examined. So we did research around that and in fact, found that paranoia was there at much milder levels in the population.

68
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,890
This is some data from UK epidemiological staff sample.

69
00:07:36,890 --> 00:07:46,100
What the data all points towards is that many people have a few paranoid thoughts on a few people have many.

70
00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:52,790
But how do we know the actual genuine paranoid thoughts that they are inaccurate sometimes?

71
00:07:52,790 --> 00:07:59,430
This could be hard fought, is more likely to be paranoid if no one else fully shares your suspicions.

72
00:07:59,430 --> 00:08:03,980
There's no indisputable evidence to support your worries. There's evidence against your suspicions.

73
00:08:03,980 --> 00:08:08,450
It's unlikely you would be singled out. Your fears persist despite reassurance from others.

74
00:08:08,450 --> 00:08:14,990
And your fears are based on feelings, unambiguous events, and it looks like nature and nurture.

75
00:08:14,990 --> 00:08:21,830
Important data from a study of 5000 adolescent twins showing that around half of the variants,

76
00:08:21,830 --> 00:08:27,890
the differences in paranoia across the population, adults, genes and around half down to environment.

77
00:08:27,890 --> 00:08:30,950
And when it comes to the environment, we know past experience is important.

78
00:08:30,950 --> 00:08:38,300
And if people have done bad things to you, that's more likely for you to view the world through mistrust.

79
00:08:38,300 --> 00:08:44,990
And we did a study of people attending accidents in emergency clinics after being physically assaulted and in the weeks

80
00:08:44,990 --> 00:08:51,860
after 80 percent reported being excessively fearful of other people generalising beyond the person who had assaulted them.

81
00:08:51,860 --> 00:08:57,860
And six months later, still two thirds were reported being excessively fearful of other people.

82
00:08:57,860 --> 00:09:08,680
And what predicted this mistrust over time was that if a person had developed particularly negative views of themselves as well as other people.

83
00:09:08,680 --> 00:09:16,030
So how do I understand paranoia and most importantly, how do I use that information to try and reduce and overcome paranoid thoughts?

84
00:09:16,030 --> 00:09:22,300
Well, at the heart of paranoia is an unfounded threat, belief to thoughts.

85
00:09:22,300 --> 00:09:30,490
Others are trying to harm you. And the consequences of that psychological view of paranoia is that to overcome it,

86
00:09:30,490 --> 00:09:38,670
what you want people to do is develop the new belief that they're safe now to counteract the old threat beliefs,

87
00:09:38,670 --> 00:09:46,310
a safety place that developed paranoid thoughts begin to melt away.

88
00:09:46,310 --> 00:09:55,550
That's easier said than done because actually there's at least half a dozen factors that prevent this new learning of safety warriors,

89
00:09:55,550 --> 00:10:05,540
important low self-esteem, internal sensations, sleep problems, reasoning biases, defence, and go talk through each one of those in a moment.

90
00:10:05,540 --> 00:10:07,940
But fundamentally to overcome paranoia.

91
00:10:07,940 --> 00:10:18,350
What we want people to do is to develop a renewed curiosity, flexibility and a way of seeing the world distancing from the paranoid thoughts,

92
00:10:18,350 --> 00:10:26,060
dropping those defences and experience the world anew to make new learning.

93
00:10:26,060 --> 00:10:32,270
And what we try and do before and to help people to be able to do that is to take down the temperature a bit.

94
00:10:32,270 --> 00:10:37,910
So, for example, we address Worryin rumination, and a person said to me that he sits and thinks,

95
00:10:37,910 --> 00:10:42,320
then gets paranoid and paranoid and paranoid and paranoid.

96
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:48,650
The more people worry, the more implausible ideas come to mind, the more they're elaborated on, the more distressing experience.

97
00:10:48,650 --> 00:10:53,600
And what people are doing when they're just worrying is, in fact, second guessing the intentions of others.

98
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,420
And that's very hard to get right.

99
00:10:56,420 --> 00:11:05,420
So what we help people do is realise that actually worry serves a person a purpose for the person, which is typically they believe it keeps them safe.

100
00:11:05,420 --> 00:11:07,670
We help people recognise actually leads to a very skewed,

101
00:11:07,670 --> 00:11:15,380
unbalanced view of the world and that it is better to confine were to brief periods of time and even better substitutes,

102
00:11:15,380 --> 00:11:23,000
problem solving strategies to take a more balanced approach to the war and some false.

103
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:32,720
And negative self police, a lack of confidence often underlies paranoia because people often feel that they're worthless,

104
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:40,280
one lovable and they feel inferior to other people. They feel all and apart and different and therefore vulnerable.

105
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:46,430
And paranoia builds upon feelings of vulnerability. So overcome paranoia.

106
00:11:46,430 --> 00:11:51,020
We help people actually build up also their positive views themselves.

107
00:11:51,020 --> 00:11:59,840
We hope we help people reflect on their strengths and their values and get them to enact that during the day through sort of positive activities.

108
00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:08,420
And in that sense, the positive is the self again, comes to override the feelings of vulnerability and.

109
00:12:08,420 --> 00:12:15,380
But it's also the case in paranoia over what we see is the body's alarm system, the anxiety system is being too sensitive.

110
00:12:15,380 --> 00:12:23,090
It's firing when there isn't any danger, and it sets in motion a whole range of physiological effects that basically the body is yelling that

111
00:12:23,090 --> 00:12:29,060
there's danger and the person is surmising that it must be coming from the people around them.

112
00:12:29,060 --> 00:12:37,950
We help people to learn to tolerate those sorts of emotions and reset that clock.

113
00:12:37,950 --> 00:12:42,540
What we're also very sure about is that getting good sleep helps reduce paranoia.

114
00:12:42,540 --> 00:12:46,680
We carried out the largest clinical trial of a psychological intervention in

115
00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:51,270
almost 4000 university students with insomnia and half had an insomnia treatment.

116
00:12:51,270 --> 00:13:03,440
They didn't have any techniques to reduce paranoia, but simply by improving sleep, paranoia itself eased.

117
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:11,510
But also, it's very easy when you have an anxious thought to get caught up in it, to believe it,

118
00:13:11,510 --> 00:13:21,170
to not consider any evidence that is inconsistent with it, and therefore and also not to think of alternate explanations.

119
00:13:21,170 --> 00:13:27,080
You get kind of locked into one way of seeing the world or actually to get out of paranoia.

120
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:36,950
Flexibility is helpful. And there's a nice passage in the name of the Rose that describes, I think, the advantages of flexibility in thinking.

121
00:13:36,950 --> 00:13:45,920
And this is a sort of dialogue between Adso, who's a sort of novice, and his teacher, the Franciscan Friar William of Baskerville.

122
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:52,190
And the dialogue goes like this, I'd say says, therefore, you don't have a single answer to your questions.

123
00:13:52,190 --> 00:13:57,830
He says to William of Baskerville, I'd say if I did, I would teach theology in Paris.

124
00:13:57,830 --> 00:14:01,520
In Paris, they always have the true answer, never, William said.

125
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:06,290
But they're very sure of the errors. I knew, I said with childish pertinence.

126
00:14:06,290 --> 00:14:12,740
Never commit errors often, he answered. But instead of conceiving only one, I imagine many.

127
00:14:12,740 --> 00:14:18,080
So I become the slave of no. And that's a reflex, he said.

128
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:25,260
I understood that my Masters method of reasoning, and it seemed to me quite alien to that of the philosopher who reasons by first principles.

129
00:14:25,260 --> 00:14:29,060
So this, in fact, almost assumes the ways of the divine intellect.

130
00:14:29,060 --> 00:14:35,870
I understood that when he didn't have an answer, William proposed many to himself, very different one from another.

131
00:14:35,870 --> 00:14:41,990
I remained puzzled. But then I ventured to remark, You are still far from the solution.

132
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:46,560
I'm very close to him, Williams said, but I don't know which.

133
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:54,380
This is highlighting flexibility in thinking about alternative explanations for events,

134
00:14:54,380 --> 00:15:02,990
but perhaps one of the greatest reasons people get kind of locked into paranoid beliefs is the defences they put up.

135
00:15:02,990 --> 00:15:13,610
What happens is the fears became locked and protected behind walls, which means they don't change if the world changes.

136
00:15:13,610 --> 00:15:20,720
And what's most common is the people with paranoid thoughts will avoid going into social situations.

137
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:29,490
And if they do, they will most typically try to be inconspicuous Rosch and avoid eye contact.

138
00:15:29,490 --> 00:15:34,190
And what it means is they think that nothing bad has happened because they put up the defences,

139
00:15:34,190 --> 00:15:42,260
not that they would have been safe without the defences and defences has consequences because you end up avoiding situations,

140
00:15:42,260 --> 00:15:48,110
which means you're more inactive and that produces actually fewer chances to gain confidence.

141
00:15:48,110 --> 00:15:51,140
Your confidence dip, you have more time on your hands,

142
00:15:51,140 --> 00:15:58,430
you'll worry more and you'll be more alert when it comes to the evening and your rhythms will be disrupted and your sleep worse,

143
00:15:58,430 --> 00:16:10,510
which means the cycle goes on and on. So what ideally we try to do in overcoming power, help people drop the defences.

144
00:16:10,510 --> 00:16:16,390
Generally go back into the situations they fear and learn what is actually happening now to enable

145
00:16:16,390 --> 00:16:25,670
chances for the person to learn that actually they are safe and they can cope in these situations.

146
00:16:25,670 --> 00:16:30,770
And we also then do is repeat this, so we embed and consolidate the learning,

147
00:16:30,770 --> 00:16:35,900
so it's about getting back into the situations we fear and finding out about how things are

148
00:16:35,900 --> 00:16:46,710
now and therefore will build up these new beliefs and memories that actually the world is OK.

149
00:16:46,710 --> 00:16:51,210
Fundamentally, what?

150
00:16:51,210 --> 00:17:00,430
We have to think about it, this is about how we want to approach other people, the people we see and the people we don't want to see.

151
00:17:00,430 --> 00:17:11,740
And one approach encapsulated in this Russian Russian rhyming proverb Dovi I know probably is trust but verify.

152
00:17:11,740 --> 00:17:18,940
And this term was popularised by Ronald Reagan in discussions with Mikhail Gorbachev about nuclear disarmament.

153
00:17:18,940 --> 00:17:24,010
But I'm going to finish now with just one final point.

154
00:17:24,010 --> 00:17:27,310
Just in the interest of flexibility, another alternative perspective,

155
00:17:27,310 --> 00:17:38,640
perhaps a less severe one on this from the author enforced who said one must be fun to people and trust them if one is not to make a mess of life.

156
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:44,270
So I'll stop that. Right, thank you very much indeed, Daniel,

157
00:17:44,270 --> 00:17:50,090
and we're definitely picking up on some of the things that you've raised there for a bit more discussion in this next section.

158
00:17:50,090 --> 00:17:52,910
But first of all, I'd like to introduce our panel members.

159
00:17:52,910 --> 00:18:01,370
So we're joined now by Liz Tonbridge, who's associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry and a fellow at University College, and also Camporee,

160
00:18:01,370 --> 00:18:09,890
who's a professor of psychiatry, also in the Department of Psychiatry and an honorary consultant psychiatrist at East London NHS Foundation Trust.

161
00:18:09,890 --> 00:18:17,870
Thanks so much for joining us, Liz. And calm. So we have some questions that people submitted before the event today.

162
00:18:17,870 --> 00:18:24,140
And one of them, the first one really does pick up on one of the things that Daniel raised about the increased

163
00:18:24,140 --> 00:18:31,010
incidence of fears of harm by others after people have experienced traumatic events.

164
00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:36,980
And somebody did highlight that bullying or trauma may lead to feelings of paranoia and mistrust.

165
00:18:36,980 --> 00:18:42,830
So can paranoia be a survival instinct? Might it be something that is helpful to us?

166
00:18:42,830 --> 00:18:51,540
And so I was interested in your views about that. And I'm sort of touched on this, which is that.

167
00:18:51,540 --> 00:18:59,700
Essentially, you can see paranoia as being a state of kind of heightened anxiety or heightened vigilance, I suppose, to the world around you.

168
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:05,830
And if you're in a situation where the world around you is genuinely threatening, that vigilance is obviously a good thing.

169
00:19:05,830 --> 00:19:10,140
You know, if you if you live in a world where there's lots of bears,

170
00:19:10,140 --> 00:19:14,820
it's makes a lot of sense to be vigilant to the presence of bears if you want to stay alive.

171
00:19:14,820 --> 00:19:21,420
I suppose, as Dan kind of explained, where that goes awry, where it, I suppose, becomes what we call paranoia,

172
00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:28,560
is where that village vigilance and anxiety persists in the absence of the overt threat.

173
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,870
And so, in a sense, the concept of paranoia is almost by definition,

174
00:19:33,870 --> 00:19:39,570
this feeling of anxiety and threat, even when there's no particular reason for that to be the case.

175
00:19:39,570 --> 00:19:45,900
But undoubtedly, if you were in a situation that's threatening, of course, it makes sense to be to be vigilant and to be alert.

176
00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:47,850
If you want to stay alive, it's a survival mechanism.

177
00:19:47,850 --> 00:19:58,780
So I suppose paranoia is is sort of when that survival mechanism persists in situations where it's inappropriate.

178
00:19:58,780 --> 00:20:04,720
And actually, that leads really nicely onto the next question, which which I think is about this issue of, well,

179
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:13,930
how do we know how do we know if all this is paranoia or whether there is something that we should be being careful of and vigilant to say?

180
00:20:13,930 --> 00:20:19,330
The question really was, how can we balance trusting people with keeping ourselves safe?

181
00:20:19,330 --> 00:20:24,210
And then can I go to you first of all on that one and then I'll come to camp?

182
00:20:24,210 --> 00:20:32,620
Yeah, it is a balance. And, you know, I think when when actually you're in adverse circumstances and people are against.

183
00:20:32,620 --> 00:20:37,330
I wouldn't view that as paranoia, but it definitely then makes you more vulnerable to having in the future.

184
00:20:37,330 --> 00:20:40,540
Understandably. Of course,

185
00:20:40,540 --> 00:20:49,150
what I what I think is fundamentally when people get the balance wrong is when they are in their own head and they're doing the second guessing.

186
00:20:49,150 --> 00:20:56,320
And therefore, for me, the way to find the balance probably is three things, really.

187
00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:06,470
Firstly, when you can talk to the people you trust around them both to learn from them and to share your fears, and you could do that gently.

188
00:21:06,470 --> 00:21:13,120
But I think in many ways we learn what safe and unsafe from the people around us, because, of course,

189
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:20,320
there are circumstances everywhere in certain situations, although it's safe that you can get out of your head and talking to people.

190
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,670
And another technique often is helpful is simply for yourself to write it down.

191
00:21:24,670 --> 00:21:27,190
And rather than writing down as a worry,

192
00:21:27,190 --> 00:21:36,130
but just weighing up the pros and cons of different strategies so often just by saying things out loud and writing things down,

193
00:21:36,130 --> 00:21:44,350
that changes our perspective on things. But most of all, I think it's avoidance that's the problem.

194
00:21:44,350 --> 00:21:54,680
And therefore, any way that you can just gently test the wolf is a real best way to learn directly how things are by trying stuff out.

195
00:21:54,680 --> 00:22:00,730
And I think that's the most helpful strategy in the end.

196
00:22:00,730 --> 00:22:05,500
Thanks very much, Abcam. Did you want to add anything further? Just yeah, just a reflection.

197
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:08,410
I me from Daniel's point about don't be alone.

198
00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:18,850
I mean, really, we need to understand why people lack trust, what their experience of learning about is, as we've seen if you've had.

199
00:22:18,850 --> 00:22:24,820
Difficulties from an early age, and you continue to live with adversity and trauma that is very difficult to trust.

200
00:22:24,820 --> 00:22:30,220
So actually it is a self-protection mechanism to some extent.

201
00:22:30,220 --> 00:22:37,670
And what needs to be self-aware to be able to reflect on your own thoughts and judge whether your thoughts are faulty or not?

202
00:22:37,670 --> 00:22:46,150
It's not always possible if you continue to be in a place of adversity and difficulty in facing distress all the time.

203
00:22:46,150 --> 00:22:53,350
So it is a balance, but I think we sometimes overstate our ability to achieve that balance.

204
00:22:53,350 --> 00:22:59,800
I think when people are facing paranoia and living with paranoia.

205
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:06,520
Crime and Punishment, Dostoevsky's novel, if you if you if you want to experience what Paradise is like a read the novel and

206
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,400
how horrible it feels to feel the world is so threatening and terrible a place,

207
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,020
I think sometimes we ask a lot of people will be trying to get balance.

208
00:23:14,020 --> 00:23:18,820
On the other hand, there are good therapeutic techniques that Daniels talked about.

209
00:23:18,820 --> 00:23:24,550
But I'm also interested in the social and how social becomes imprinted on the psychological and that the

210
00:23:24,550 --> 00:23:30,420
response to intervention is also social to some extent to change the environment in which we're existing.

211
00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:34,620
And that point really about the importance of the social environment and I guess

212
00:23:34,620 --> 00:23:38,790
picking up on what you saying as well about not being allowed to reach out to others,

213
00:23:38,790 --> 00:23:47,820
talk to others, you know, check out your your beliefs does raise a question about, you know, the context that we've had over the last year.

214
00:23:47,820 --> 00:23:55,260
And there was a question submitted which was asking, is the increase in remote working and the decrease in social interaction that many

215
00:23:55,260 --> 00:23:59,890
people have experienced over the last year likely to have increased paranoia.

216
00:23:59,890 --> 00:24:06,710
Let's do you have any comments on that? I mean, I think undoubtedly I can't see how it wouldn't, to be honest, in a way,

217
00:24:06,710 --> 00:24:13,610
we're almost living in the perfect storm where we're in a world that's inherently more threatening than it was 18 months ago.

218
00:24:13,610 --> 00:24:17,840
We know that people are more isolated than they were and they're not having those social interactions,

219
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:25,100
which, you know, as we've heard from Dan, Dan and Cam, so important to address paranoia.

220
00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:28,520
And we know that people aren't sleeping properly and that they're more anxious than they were.

221
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:37,790
So I can't see that this is in many ways the perfect storm of of of paranoia generating environment.

222
00:24:37,790 --> 00:24:44,930
So it would be almost unbelievable to think that paranoia is not going to increase during this period.

223
00:24:44,930 --> 00:24:47,750
Plus, coupled with you,

224
00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:56,480
coupled with the environment we live in online that increasingly is amenable to spreading fake news about vaccines or whatever else.

225
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,050
I think all of these things are going to play into into this this situation,

226
00:25:00,050 --> 00:25:06,050
which we are all inherently in a heightened state of anxiety and probably for very good reason in many cases.

227
00:25:06,050 --> 00:25:13,550
So I think it will remain to be seen how quickly that wanes after things begin to return to whatever normal is after the pandemic.

228
00:25:13,550 --> 00:25:20,620
But I think certainly in the short term, I think we're going to see really significant spikes in paranoia.

229
00:25:20,620 --> 00:25:29,260
And so I suppose, given that we are still in a slightly strange context and I guess it's not completely clear how things are going to continue and,

230
00:25:29,260 --> 00:25:32,290
you know, we still obviously do have many restrictions on us.

231
00:25:32,290 --> 00:25:40,150
And I guess that does raise the question of how we can combat combat these difficulties, particularly in the current context.

232
00:25:40,150 --> 00:25:44,110
And, you know, how we might switch off these sorts of negative feelings,

233
00:25:44,110 --> 00:25:49,060
particularly at times when it's difficult to reach out to others and connect with others.

234
00:25:49,060 --> 00:25:51,610
I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

235
00:25:51,610 --> 00:25:59,050
I think it's really important to point out that, listen, Daniel, I've made about being in a relationship.

236
00:25:59,050 --> 00:26:02,590
We've learnt really from the lockdown how difficult it is not to be in real relationships.

237
00:26:02,590 --> 00:26:07,450
Even some relationships don't really replace those real relationships within the relationship.

238
00:26:07,450 --> 00:26:15,070
But we process emotions and we process traumatic memories and process adversity and come to reflect and exercise our ability

239
00:26:15,070 --> 00:26:23,150
to trust and within the relationship that we can reduce to levels of anxiety and expose ourselves to alternative perspective.

240
00:26:23,150 --> 00:26:29,620
So isolation is a terrible thing, I think. But also being aware of one's own ability to process emotion is important.

241
00:26:29,620 --> 00:26:32,820
I think reducing levels of anxiety through other means as well.

242
00:26:32,820 --> 00:26:41,800
Exercise, activity, relaxation, leisure, breaking the cycles, as Daniels outlined of worry and reflecting on more positive experiences.

243
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:49,240
All of those are helpful. At the other extreme, I know that, you know, I've done some research on extremism, for example,

244
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:56,530
and radicalisation and how digital environments can perpetuate conspiracy theories and extreme actions as a consequence

245
00:26:56,530 --> 00:27:03,260
of them showing what the potential is if people aren't testing their belief systems against alternative views.

246
00:27:03,260 --> 00:27:10,480
So there was lots one can do. And it comes back to self care, self awareness, listening very carefully,

247
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,610
looking up and noticing the other person and really taking sometimes all of these things,

248
00:27:15,610 --> 00:27:21,520
of course, are difficult in modern life and particularly so with so many.

249
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:28,540
Thanks very much to you for any further thoughts on that and particularly, I guess, this challenge of connecting with others,

250
00:27:28,540 --> 00:27:34,480
testing out our thoughts and beliefs about others and their intentions in this slightly strange

251
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:40,000
environment that we find ourselves where it might be harder to connect with people face to face.

252
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:46,390
Yeah, I mean, I think it is the pandemic is a perfect storm for misinformation and conspiracy thinking.

253
00:27:46,390 --> 00:27:51,190
I think we're seeing that. I think it's probably less so that individual target is paranoid.

254
00:27:51,190 --> 00:27:58,120
But I think there are I think this highlighted a number of reasons those vulnerable may be affected, particularly by the isolation.

255
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:07,300
So this is highlighted very nicely. The social fart's will have an influence psychological level, and it will be through tips and confidence.

256
00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:12,290
More time to worry disturbs sleep and less chances, less engagement with people.

257
00:28:12,290 --> 00:28:21,950
So I think. There are reasons you're vulnerable that it may persist more.

258
00:28:21,950 --> 00:28:33,470
But I'm not expecting a huge increase of individual paragliders as opposed to the more sort of general mistrust of conspiracy and misinformation,

259
00:28:33,470 --> 00:28:43,520
and I think we're seeing some clear markers of long standing fault lines in our society that emerged during a collective response.

260
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:50,480
But of course, we've also seen a lot of really good things and coming together and collective responses in this and the reaching out to others,

261
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:58,100
which is so crucial, I think, in in our society, but also helping people come, overcommitment difficulties, whatever they are.

262
00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:06,430
Social connexion is clearly important for people and.

263
00:29:06,430 --> 00:29:14,140
You know, throughout one is feel psychologically better when one is engaged in activity that is meaningful for oneself,

264
00:29:14,140 --> 00:29:17,770
and the more you can do that, the more you get your head away from the worries and the fears.

265
00:29:17,770 --> 00:29:20,380
There's less time in your head for that.

266
00:29:20,380 --> 00:29:29,390
And comes also rightly highlighted the basis of getting a sleep and exercise and diet help you reach the emotional state of distance and thoughts.

267
00:29:29,390 --> 00:29:31,750
So, you know, for all of us,

268
00:29:31,750 --> 00:29:40,710
I think the pandemic is obviously a test of all of how we are managed because so much has changed for all of us dramatically.

269
00:29:40,710 --> 00:29:43,860
Thank you. And you picked up there also about, you know,

270
00:29:43,860 --> 00:29:49,680
the sort of keenness amongst many to be able to support others and and actually that's something that certainly

271
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:56,220
shone through in the questions we received where many people were keen to know how best to support others,

272
00:29:56,220 --> 00:30:03,000
friends, family, co-workers who were showing signs of paranoia. And I guess it's always that, you know,

273
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:10,840
concern that you might somehow feed into people's worries rather than be able to be a supportive person for them.

274
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:19,950
So many people were keen to hear your thoughts on how we can best support others who might be struggling with paranoia and similar sorts of concerns,

275
00:30:19,950 --> 00:30:23,880
like, can I come to you first for your thoughts? Yeah, a really important question.

276
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:36,090
And I guess one has to be clear about what role you have with another person as a friend or a family member and at the same time,

277
00:30:36,090 --> 00:30:43,590
listen carefully to be aware whether what they're expressing is a heightened concern or extreme

278
00:30:43,590 --> 00:30:49,950
exquisite sensitivity to awkward situations or a long history of adversity discrimination.

279
00:30:49,950 --> 00:30:54,690
I mean, I do a lot of work on ethnicity in the history of discrimination ancestrally and recently.

280
00:30:54,690 --> 00:30:58,620
And then Closter disadvantage and difficulty getting jobs and violence and all

281
00:30:58,620 --> 00:31:01,050
of that means that some people aren't going to be in a very different place.

282
00:31:01,050 --> 00:31:08,820
So don't assume that you know what their world is like and that you understand and relate to it and will be able to relate to it.

283
00:31:08,820 --> 00:31:14,610
I think the most important role one can play is just to listen, to be with, to support,

284
00:31:14,610 --> 00:31:22,170
to help reduce levels of worry and anxiety, to offer an opportunity to process emotions and reflect and to not be alone.

285
00:31:22,170 --> 00:31:27,570
And within that process, if you see or discover concerning aspects of belief,

286
00:31:27,570 --> 00:31:33,450
which are the more extreme and perhaps driven by hallucinations or delusions,

287
00:31:33,450 --> 00:31:38,250
which are risky for the personalities, then you don't have to do that to yourself.

288
00:31:38,250 --> 00:31:45,360
You're not no longer a friend. You have to move into a different space. And of course, I guess there's the three groups of people I've worked with,

289
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,340
with paranoid people with psychosis, people with personality difficulties, people from ethnic minority groups.

290
00:31:50,340 --> 00:31:57,120
And each of those convey a different type of paranoia, the most extreme and if you like, which can still be managed but is worrisome.

291
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,570
People have had chronic adversity, adverse childhood experiences and trauma.

292
00:32:00,570 --> 00:32:04,410
And I develop patterns of relating and feeling which need to be managed differently.

293
00:32:04,410 --> 00:32:10,590
And those who experience social adversity and chronically over long periods of time in who

294
00:32:10,590 --> 00:32:16,170
the paranoid become completely reasonable and reflect a reality that they are experiencing.

295
00:32:16,170 --> 00:32:20,910
And they haven't been able to manage their way out of it or manage themselves.

296
00:32:20,910 --> 00:32:29,400
And actually avoiding self attribution is one mechanism by which paranoia emerges when one has to manage difficult situations.

297
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:36,840
So I think to be as human as you can and as as ordinary as you can and don't be heroic is what I would say.

298
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:42,300
Thank you. Yeah, it sounds like really sensible advice and I'd like to come to you on this question as well.

299
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:44,280
And just to sort of pick it up a bit further.

300
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:53,850
One of the specific questions that we had is, is it best to go along with someone's beliefs or to try and convince someone otherwise?

301
00:32:53,850 --> 00:32:58,860
And so maybe if you could also tell us a bit about your thoughts on that, that would be great.

302
00:32:58,860 --> 00:33:09,090
Yeah, I would be thinking about two things, really. One is talking and secondly, about action, really.

303
00:33:09,090 --> 00:33:15,270
So in the talk is Comer's saying, I think you have to listen and try and understand the person's perspective.

304
00:33:15,270 --> 00:33:23,440
I think it's fine to introduce your perspective into this, but what you don't want to do is set up a.

305
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:29,410
An argument because that just backs people into the existing conditions,

306
00:33:29,410 --> 00:33:38,770
but the opportunity to to listen while you respect and also providing your view generally is is the way.

307
00:33:38,770 --> 00:33:41,920
But then also, I think to the people around you, it is providing that support.

308
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,730
And that's the action that really where, you know, you want to get the person out,

309
00:33:45,730 --> 00:33:49,570
not avoiding, you know, being engaged in activities that are enjoyable,

310
00:33:49,570 --> 00:33:55,750
meaningful, positive experiences, and also enables them to to test the waters,

311
00:33:55,750 --> 00:34:00,490
even if you're not going out there to seek a psychological intervention that way.

312
00:34:00,490 --> 00:34:05,260
But you're giving a person to implicitly learn it's okay to be in these situations and to learn from you.

313
00:34:05,260 --> 00:34:07,300
So I think that listening and understanding,

314
00:34:07,300 --> 00:34:18,820
respecting but also providing opportunities for the person to engage with the world and an away from a sort of mistrusting threat based perspective.

315
00:34:18,820 --> 00:34:26,350
Thank you very much, Liz. I don't know if there's anything else you wanted to add at all, either on that question or anything else that we've covered.

316
00:34:26,350 --> 00:34:33,280
Not particularly. I'm going to leave the clinical side of things to come and Daniel, who are eminently more qualified than I am, so to speak, to that.

317
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:40,720
Great. Well, thank you all very much indeed. That answers all of the questions that we'd picked out for today to focus on.

318
00:34:40,720 --> 00:34:43,930
So I'd like to thank all of you for your time today.

319
00:34:43,930 --> 00:34:50,500
I think it's been a really interesting and useful session, and I hope that those who have joined us have felt the same.

320
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:55,630
I just want to remind everybody who has joined us that, as I mentioned,

321
00:34:55,630 --> 00:35:01,930
we've got another session in the series coming up on the 3rd of June, and that's focussed on bullying and anxiety.

322
00:35:01,930 --> 00:35:07,510
I'm also pleased to complete the short feedback form that will pop up as you lead the session.

323
00:35:07,510 --> 00:35:08,680
They're very useful for us.

324
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:15,550
Just to help us plan ahead and think about what how we should do things and what sort of sessions we should offer going forward.

325
00:35:15,550 --> 00:35:21,940
And as I mentioned, please, to have a look at the Department of Experimental Psychology website or our YouTube channel where you can find

326
00:35:21,940 --> 00:35:29,680
our previous talks are all equally have a very good combination of research findings and practical advice.

327
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:36,220
So thank you ever so much again for joining us. And we hope that you'll be able to join us again for an upcoming session.

328
00:35:36,220 --> 00:35:51,654
Thanks again by.