1 00:00:05,980 --> 00:00:14,770 I would like to start by having a little bit of a discussion of some of the bigger issues that come out from this and then turn it to 2 00:00:14,770 --> 00:00:21,460 the floor because I think it's really important to give you all the opportunity to interrogate the issues that matter most to you. 3 00:00:21,460 --> 00:00:28,380 Rich, what's the extent to which I think the research we're doing and the challenges we face, 4 00:00:28,380 --> 00:00:34,390 it impacts on how we how we demonstrate that resonates with your own experience. 5 00:00:34,390 --> 00:00:40,570 And I think it's helpful to start by just, I think, highlighting some of the key points that came out, 6 00:00:40,570 --> 00:00:46,210 one of which was the organic nature of change and of impact in policy. 7 00:00:46,210 --> 00:00:51,670 The fact that things don't policies don't happen in a linear fashion at all. 8 00:00:51,670 --> 00:01:00,490 And the sort of almost serendipitous nature of, you know, picking up and running with something that you've been commissioned to do, 9 00:01:00,490 --> 00:01:07,600 say, by governments and the way in which that then is enabling you to be heard in other fora and elsewhere. 10 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:17,410 It gives you the authority and the credibility that you need to be able to show that you can actually contribute to to to policy. 11 00:01:17,410 --> 00:01:25,300 And I think it's really important also to emphasise, perhaps it was a little who bought it more out than the other to two presentations for Ethiopia. 12 00:01:25,300 --> 00:01:32,830 The extent to which when we started the world was not really geared up in many countries 13 00:01:32,830 --> 00:01:37,390 to listen to research evidence at all and to use it in planning and policy in practise. 14 00:01:37,390 --> 00:01:45,850 And I think that's now more established than it was. But let's not assume that it's the only source of influence on on policy practise, 15 00:01:45,850 --> 00:01:53,350 and I think we're often competing with all kinds of other force forces that also influence policy and practise. 16 00:01:53,350 --> 00:01:56,980 And of course, there's lots of spurious evidence out there as well that we're competing with. 17 00:01:56,980 --> 00:02:06,790 It's not like we're the only player on the block, and I think you're probably all facing that sort of experience on the field, many changes. 18 00:02:06,790 --> 00:02:13,300 And I think it was really interesting that I bet many of you face working with theories of change and logical frameworks and so on. 19 00:02:13,300 --> 00:02:20,140 All these tools that are now the sort of magic ingredient, theoretically of impact and so on. 20 00:02:20,140 --> 00:02:25,300 They didn't exist when young lives were set up. It had a log frame, but it didn't have a theory of change. 21 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:32,830 We now have a log frame and a theory of change, and I've just been reviewing them and realised they don't really speak well to each other. 22 00:02:32,830 --> 00:02:37,810 So it's incredibly easy to find yourself developing these, even in your own agenda. 23 00:02:37,810 --> 00:02:47,560 These things almost in parallel. So I would like to turn back to the three of you and just ask you if you were to be starting young lives. 24 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:55,930 Now, with the funding starting from now and everything else, how would you would you set things up differently? 25 00:02:55,930 --> 00:03:00,460 How would you do it in order to achieve the impact that you want to achieve? 26 00:03:00,460 --> 00:03:08,110 Bearing in mind that governance is also we've argued that governance is a key issue to that partnerships, relationships and everything else. 27 00:03:08,110 --> 00:03:11,830 How would you do it differently or would you do it differently? What did you learn? 28 00:03:11,830 --> 00:03:15,010 What's the big one income you have? Nice. 29 00:03:15,010 --> 00:03:26,110 Well, let me start with one of the things I I have been thinking about is Young Lives was set up from the beginning as a study of childhood poverty, 30 00:03:26,110 --> 00:03:34,330 but a multidimensional so we had professionals from different disciplines trying to work together and integrate their work. 31 00:03:34,330 --> 00:03:40,570 But that meant also that some of the surveys we had lots of topics. 32 00:03:40,570 --> 00:03:48,430 And so I have always wondered, I'm not sure what the answer is, perhaps somebody in the audience can speak to this if. 33 00:03:48,430 --> 00:03:56,980 What would have happened if we had decided on a few topics, more select the topics instead of the range of topics that we have had, 34 00:03:56,980 --> 00:04:03,970 we have also changed over the years and that's something I keep thinking about some issue. 35 00:04:03,970 --> 00:04:09,700 I don't know. So I think I wouldn't change the number of topics. 36 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:12,970 I would keep those because that's what lends itself that, you know, 37 00:04:12,970 --> 00:04:20,050 you're looking at different domains, not a nutrition focussed study or an education focussed study. 38 00:04:20,050 --> 00:04:24,220 And you can look at all those other determinants of, you know, say, child marriage, 39 00:04:24,220 --> 00:04:33,640 which cuts across education and federal education, menarche and a whole host of variables that you get from our dataset. 40 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:44,950 But I think what I would do is if we had the money, of course, would have wanted another cohort in another state, 41 00:04:44,950 --> 00:04:51,580 you know, or maybe two states which would really, you know, speak their northern state and the southern state. 42 00:04:51,580 --> 00:05:00,050 And maybe, you know, in the northeast and then be able to look at how children grow up in poverty and children, 43 00:05:00,050 --> 00:05:05,620 I think renamed the study children and youth in poverty because we are, 44 00:05:05,620 --> 00:05:15,670 you know, so looking at young people, you know, because we had nostrand, there were 22 not children anymore, actually in round five. 45 00:05:15,670 --> 00:05:20,120 So yeah, that's that's that's something that I would definitely. 46 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:27,640 I think one other thing maybe I remember going in, you know, in round four to, I think, 47 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:32,500 meeting somebody in the Ministry of Health and looking at really trying to bring 48 00:05:32,500 --> 00:05:36,490 the dialogue between teenage pregnancy and child marriage together because they, 49 00:05:36,490 --> 00:05:40,780 you know, child marriage is seen. As Ministry of Health says, this is not our problem, right? 50 00:05:40,780 --> 00:05:48,880 Teenage pregnancy is but not child marriage and Ministry of Women and child and Child Marriage marriages our issue, but not teenage pregnancy. 51 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:55,570 Go to the Ministry of Health for that. So we to talking to them and they said. 52 00:05:55,570 --> 00:06:03,190 Here in round four of. Did you take permission from us before you started the study in 2002? 53 00:06:03,190 --> 00:06:07,240 So, you know, I think what's really important is, you know, 54 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:12,070 how do you make sure and I guess it would be even more difficult in today's political climate, 55 00:06:12,070 --> 00:06:19,360 but I think just getting a buy-in and ownership from the government and a bigger stake without taking money from them, 56 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,510 of course, so that you remain completely independent and objective. 57 00:06:22,510 --> 00:06:32,370 But I think right from the beginning, getting us a buy in from the government would be really important, even in the way we would roll out the study. 58 00:06:32,370 --> 00:06:40,710 Yes, I would echo what both Santiago Santiago and Ronald Reagan were saying, you know that from the start, 59 00:06:40,710 --> 00:06:47,280 having a much more consultative process would have been would be very would be very useful so 60 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:54,480 that the objectives and talking it through and trying to work closely with with what's going on. 61 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,240 But a lot of it's very unpredictable. 62 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:07,650 And I think the holistic aspect of and looking across different sectors in the different domains is really very crucial. 63 00:07:07,650 --> 00:07:11,790 And because it's a study of childhood and growing up, 64 00:07:11,790 --> 00:07:18,180 it's clear that in the early years nutrition is going to be important in education is going to become much more important 65 00:07:18,180 --> 00:07:25,980 as the children grow and later on the questions of marriage and setting up households and moving on now to work, 66 00:07:25,980 --> 00:07:28,220 it's a logical progression. 67 00:07:28,220 --> 00:07:37,650 And so I would have I think it was really important that we kept that and we can't you can't really also predict what's going to come up, 68 00:07:37,650 --> 00:07:40,800 come up as a as a definite issue. 69 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:52,860 So I remember when I first joined in 2009 and and Joe said to me, when you write a paper with me on FGM C and I looked at her as if she was mad. 70 00:07:52,860 --> 00:07:53,820 I mean, 71 00:07:53,820 --> 00:08:03,440 the children were only nine and this was something associated much more with marriage and it was several years down the line and and it didn't. 72 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:11,760 I had no idea that the girls summit would explode onto the scene, that this would become a commitment to the Egyptian government. 73 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:18,600 And so I think there is a danger of of trying to define. 74 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:27,480 A primary and beforehand, what you're going to look at, and that's one of the beauties of a much more open ended, 75 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:33,510 less narrow and more holistic approach, such as as young lives had. 76 00:08:33,510 --> 00:08:46,410 I think as with renewal in our case in Ethiopia, not including the lowland agro pastoralists emerging regions. 77 00:08:46,410 --> 00:08:51,330 In my view, was a mistake. There were it would have been risks of attrition. 78 00:08:51,330 --> 00:08:56,100 But I think that that that's one of the things I would have changed. 79 00:08:56,100 --> 00:09:02,520 I'm very interested that nobody's really mentioning almost the elephant in the room because for me, 80 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:07,710 one of the biggest challenges to having impact on policy in practise has always been the 81 00:09:07,710 --> 00:09:12,480 volatility of the political environments in which we're working and the extent to which I mean, 82 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:20,490 I've just so many times we have worked so hard on a particular ministry, on a particular official. 83 00:09:20,490 --> 00:09:24,420 And we've really built trust with them. We've built our credibility with them, 84 00:09:24,420 --> 00:09:31,590 and we've just got to the point where we think that they're going to make a really great decision that's based and informed by our research. 85 00:09:31,590 --> 00:09:38,250 They move on. They're shifted to a different ministry or the ministry policy changes or and it's likewise with the donors. 86 00:09:38,250 --> 00:09:41,220 So you're building relationships with donors as well. 87 00:09:41,220 --> 00:09:47,940 You're building multiple relationships, both with donors, with with exclusive tenders nationally and so on. 88 00:09:47,940 --> 00:09:53,910 And the donors sometimes residing in in the states or the UK or wherever they are. 89 00:09:53,910 --> 00:09:57,570 They they may also say, Well, no, this is no longer our priority. 90 00:09:57,570 --> 00:10:06,510 So you're in this incredibly volatile environment where your constant, your basic research questions, your research issues are constant. 91 00:10:06,510 --> 00:10:13,770 That's the whole point about longitudinal study. We talked about the ability to be to be able to adapt and adjust and so on. 92 00:10:13,770 --> 00:10:19,020 But it's also the case that you've need to remain faithful to your original design. 93 00:10:19,020 --> 00:10:20,850 So how do you deal? 94 00:10:20,850 --> 00:10:31,080 I think with that kind of volatility, I think is another really big issue because we never know what's around the corner in terms of our politics. 95 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:37,830 And that's the politics actually in the UK, as much as it is in the study countries, because we've seen a lot of political [INAUDIBLE]. 96 00:10:37,830 --> 00:10:48,150 I mean, just to tell you all that young lives was about to go into its most expensive year ever in terms of data gathering. 97 00:10:48,150 --> 00:10:56,700 Just at the moment that we had a 2016 referendum on Brexit, that you might all think that's completely irrelevant to a study. 98 00:10:56,700 --> 00:11:06,150 Like ours, it crushed the pound, the value of the pound just the moment when we were about to shift all the funds out to the study country partners. 99 00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:10,800 For us, it meant hundreds of thousands of pounds knocked off our budget instantly. 100 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,830 So that's the kind of, I think, just to say a couple of things. 101 00:11:13,830 --> 00:11:23,160 Maybe if you cared about how you dealt with those unanticipated changes, some of the threatening and risky some of them also offer up opportunities. 102 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:28,860 And then I'd like to open the floor and and ask people to ask questions. 103 00:11:28,860 --> 00:11:30,390 Well, one of the things I hit, 104 00:11:30,390 --> 00:11:40,530 I think Trent was suggesting this is that you're not seen as an ally of any specific party or person or political institution in any way. 105 00:11:40,530 --> 00:11:46,470 You're saying you sort of gave your credentials as a research institution that is kind 106 00:11:46,470 --> 00:11:52,680 of say what we find in in our topic because we know these changes are going to occur. 107 00:11:52,680 --> 00:12:04,080 And fortunately enough, we have been in a position whereby people that replace those who have left are known by 108 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:09,600 somebody within the institution and so we can re-establish links and pick up from there. 109 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:20,760 And that's that's a work over the years. But. So I think remaining apolitical and being seen as apolitical and even though I think that's very hard, 110 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:28,890 but and I think keeping your interface more to the bureaucrats rather than the ministers. 111 00:12:28,890 --> 00:12:34,470 That's that's how we we we deal with it before you. Your bureaucrats don't change. 112 00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:43,530 I mean, they do change, but one bureaucrat replaces another bureaucrat. But if you're aligned to ministers who are political from political parties, 113 00:12:43,530 --> 00:12:48,840 that's when I think it becomes very difficult and the next party in the next election. 114 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:55,980 You may not be even allowed entry into the policy forums on the tables where you want to be. 115 00:12:55,980 --> 00:13:06,450 So I think that's one thing. But yes, it's it's extremely challenging and particularly in recent times, for example, when you know you are told that, 116 00:13:06,450 --> 00:13:13,080 OK, so we won't come for dissemination of research reports, but will come for dissemination. 117 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:18,890 So just make it into a fact sheet. Yeah. 118 00:13:18,890 --> 00:13:27,150 So yeah, I mean, I think the different times, different challenges, and you've just got to find ways of saying, OK, 119 00:13:27,150 --> 00:13:35,400 but you know, as long as I think to my mind, I think our biggest like Al-Ula referred to it when he was speaking. 120 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:40,920 I think the fact that after so many years, I think we've been around for very long. 121 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:49,320 You know, we are told by people, OK, you do on this research, I think that that itself just stands by us. 122 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:58,920 So they know we can't be pressured into saying things. I think nobody even tries, and I think that's a really, really good place to be in. 123 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:07,410 So I think the that the turnover issue, both in terms of government staff, donor communities, 124 00:14:07,410 --> 00:14:13,590 researchers is a real challenge and that's one of the advantages of being there for a while 125 00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:21,030 that you unknown and then new people coming in want to learn from what what you're doing. 126 00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:30,900 But it is a challenge. So for instance, the Ministry of Women and Children had youth in it, and a separate ministry of Youth was created in Ethiopia. 127 00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:38,010 So we were engaging with the Ministry of Youth. And before we knew it, the Ministry of Youth was re folded back into the Ministry of Women, 128 00:14:38,010 --> 00:14:46,260 and that creates tremendous changes or the main research organisation that did the survey in Ethiopia this year, 129 00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:52,530 Investment Research Institute got merged with another institute with a very different way of operating. 130 00:14:52,530 --> 00:15:01,800 So. And that transition, and again, it's a credit to Oxford that they saw the importance of retaining the relationships with 131 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:07,440 individuals and institutions and working through very difficult contexts of change, 132 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,900 political change and so forth. And I think if there was one element that I would like to see, 133 00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:20,010 I did more and I know Joe did struggle to try and push for that a political economy approach 134 00:15:20,010 --> 00:15:26,580 to the way that research is done right from the way that the research is conceived, 135 00:15:26,580 --> 00:15:36,120 designed, funded. Understood the way that we actually present our messages. 136 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:42,930 The whole political economy of that right down to the way in which the children and the parents and the communities, 137 00:15:42,930 --> 00:15:46,470 the way the communities experience this. 138 00:15:46,470 --> 00:15:50,190 Understand this. React to it. You know, 139 00:15:50,190 --> 00:15:58,020 we we have this rather an a rather sort of assumption that our research is valued 140 00:15:58,020 --> 00:16:05,280 a value neutral and that we're doing this in a net neutral scientific way. 141 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:14,220 But of course, we are going talking to young people. Their views are changing as we talk to them, are in dialogue with them. 142 00:16:14,220 --> 00:16:22,770 And I would I would like to see a much more reflexive approach about the political economy of knowledge generation, 143 00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:30,930 knowledge sharing, knowledge dissemination, knowledge contestation. 144 00:16:30,930 --> 00:16:41,880 So I think that that would be something that there is avenues to to really think about the way in which research on poverty, 145 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:51,400 research on childhood research on communities, how this is contested and understood and represented. 146 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,530 And so that's really there's a lot more to be done that. 147 00:16:55,530 --> 00:17:00,240 So I think that's a very nice way to end this, but also the exercise, 148 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:06,180 one of the I think one of the things that we try to do and I can't say that we always do 149 00:17:06,180 --> 00:17:13,330 it successfully is we do make a clear distinction between conceptual or knowledge impact, 150 00:17:13,330 --> 00:17:18,150 knowledge change and the more instrumental impact. 151 00:17:18,150 --> 00:17:23,460 And I think probably the kind of research we do is observational research is much better. 152 00:17:23,460 --> 00:17:33,030 It's conceptual than it is at the instrumental. So Lula mentioned of, you know, randomised controlled trials, they are much more instrumental. 153 00:17:33,030 --> 00:17:39,060 They can go right down to chasing, you know, what an impact of a specific intervention has been, 154 00:17:39,060 --> 00:17:44,730 whereas we're much more likely to shift the way people think. And I'm often very excited when I see. 155 00:17:44,730 --> 00:17:50,430 I mean, the best way of saying that war is when people claim your ideas for their own. 156 00:17:50,430 --> 00:17:57,120 And that's great, because then you know that you've you've got so much into their heads that actually, 157 00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,830 you know, they've they basically don't even know that it came from you in the first place. 158 00:18:01,830 --> 00:18:15,040 So those conceptual shifts can also then begin to shift the way policymakers do their business, the way they do that, that planning and so on. 159 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,330 Thanks so much, it's so great to be here and hear about all your experiences across different countries. 160 00:18:19,330 --> 00:18:27,430 So my name is Catherine Gresham. I'm a researcher on a large, difford funded multi-country research programme as well. 161 00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:31,340 And something I've been increasingly thinking about is ethics in development research, 162 00:18:31,340 --> 00:18:38,170 and I would be really interested to hear how young lives approach the idea of ethics because ethics, 163 00:18:38,170 --> 00:18:45,130 understanding of ethics and research differs across different countries. And did you? 164 00:18:45,130 --> 00:18:52,840 There's different ways of thinking about it in terms of very formal ethical approval procedures that you need to go through, 165 00:18:52,840 --> 00:19:03,350 but then also broad ideas of ethics around impact, feeding back to research participants and a reflexive approach to research. 166 00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:07,600 If you would mind commenting on how you dealt with that in your project request. 167 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,670 Thank you. My name is Kathy Silver and I'm from the Education Department. 168 00:19:12,670 --> 00:19:17,950 I've been one of the leaders of a very large scale longitudinal study just in one country on education. 169 00:19:17,950 --> 00:19:21,520 It 3000 children. It lasted 19 years. 170 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:32,530 Joe's final elephant in the room really touched my heart because we reported and worked very well with the Labour government for many, many years. 171 00:19:32,530 --> 00:19:41,290 Suddenly, we had a very conservative government and we had to really retune the team and 172 00:19:41,290 --> 00:19:46,060 we had to reallocate the budget because we knew that with the new government, 173 00:19:46,060 --> 00:19:54,160 certain areas were not going to be accepted and we felt we could somehow slip into other areas. 174 00:19:54,160 --> 00:20:01,060 That meant that certain people who were promised things and were expecting things to happen, those things couldn't happen. 175 00:20:01,060 --> 00:20:05,650 It also meant that you moved to New Delhi. 176 00:20:05,650 --> 00:20:11,560 I mean, that would be a sudden expense that wasn't planned. A cow on your teams? 177 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:19,120 Do you really live together as a coherent team with respect for one another and yet make these changes? 178 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:27,340 Because although I think Santiago began saying that basically things are getting better for the children, there's catch up. 179 00:20:27,340 --> 00:20:32,440 We have a positive story and that's the one side of impact. 180 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:38,710 It's kind of the research side, but the policy side with governments is not a story getting better. 181 00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:50,170 It's a story that gets better, gets worse, gets better, gets horrendous. And how as a team do you deal with with having to make shifts? 182 00:20:50,170 --> 00:20:55,540 So you really stole my question. It was something that was a burning issue. 183 00:20:55,540 --> 00:21:02,050 I was I had one. Well, the city of you were talking, so I'm not going to repeat the question. 184 00:21:02,050 --> 00:21:06,310 So just to say that I have I haven't done longitudinal studies. 185 00:21:06,310 --> 00:21:13,990 I have done very short term studies and I have experienced that volatility that you mentioned is really destabilising. 186 00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:23,560 But I wonder if the answer to that because ultimately you don't engage with government departments, you don't engage with policy makers, 187 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:32,000 you engage with specific individuals and you build relationships of trust and at some point, those individual relationships. 188 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:38,560 But that individual capacity building that you building that particular government department has to become institutionalised. 189 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:44,350 And I think it was you, you mentioned about culture, shift culture, cultural changes within government departments. 190 00:21:44,350 --> 00:21:49,360 And I wonder if you have reflected in how that process has taken place, 191 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:55,120 if indeed it has from, you know, those individual relationships with particular chunk, 192 00:21:55,120 --> 00:22:06,320 if you like to the more institutionalised approach and embedding in this case, young lives in government. 193 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:14,080 So my name is Mysskin, not an epidemiologist at the Georgia Institute of Global Health. 194 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:20,050 My question is regarding the study sites. 195 00:22:20,050 --> 00:22:27,770 So I was wondering if the study sites where well told over, especially with regards to it. 196 00:22:27,770 --> 00:22:40,840 Yeah, I was looking to take to the geography where the data was collected. 197 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:54,340 And I so like, for example, there is one region where there are about like four study sites, whereas another region, there is almost no study site, 198 00:22:54,340 --> 00:23:13,330 which I think basically is an important study region, which is a Somali region, for example, that is basically affected by drought for many years. 199 00:23:13,330 --> 00:23:25,220 And so it's just a little bit, yeah, unexpected to see no data was collected from. 200 00:23:25,220 --> 00:23:33,560 Such kind of thanks. Such a fix, it seems on first all the time, anyway, we'll switch next week. 201 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,650 OK, OK, I promise about ethics. 202 00:23:36,650 --> 00:23:47,420 Yes, we go through the formal processes, of course, how we have been through the Ethics Committee in Oxford and in study countries. 203 00:23:47,420 --> 00:23:49,580 But we had to go beyond that. 204 00:23:49,580 --> 00:24:00,950 And there's an interesting exploration of this in a tough in our publication by Virginia Morrow in our in our website, if you want to look at it. 205 00:24:00,950 --> 00:24:10,340 But things we did. We felt that if we gathered so much information, we had to give them back some of the information. 206 00:24:10,340 --> 00:24:18,890 So we give back information to local authorities, for example, but also sometimes to family. 207 00:24:18,890 --> 00:24:28,790 So for instance, we had information about growth and weight, and field workers were trained in Peru, at least to quickly assess how they were doing. 208 00:24:28,790 --> 00:24:35,150 And we had a set of recommendations if they were undernourished or or obese. 209 00:24:35,150 --> 00:24:44,030 Of course, if they were too thin or too fat, then it would become something else and we would deal with specific treatment. 210 00:24:44,030 --> 00:24:52,880 Or in some cases, we have of four for the mouth when they were growing older. 211 00:24:52,880 --> 00:25:06,590 They really appreciate consulting we have on public services that they can access to on scholarships, on health and on legal advice and so forth. 212 00:25:06,590 --> 00:25:14,570 We sometimes we hear that this may be an intervention, but you know, we thought we had to give them back something. 213 00:25:14,570 --> 00:25:21,110 And of course, there are the individual ethical cases where we meet and decide, 214 00:25:21,110 --> 00:25:30,620 how is it that we're going to go about somebody who says thinking about committing suicide or things like that? 215 00:25:30,620 --> 00:25:36,140 Because even though it's not part of the questions, field workers that go back and back and spend, 216 00:25:36,140 --> 00:25:42,050 if you are with them, you gain the trust of the people that after some point and say, I'm going to tell you something. 217 00:25:42,050 --> 00:25:48,560 This child is not really my child or or my husband is violent with me or whatever. 218 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,180 And so don't tell anybody. But then we start discussions. 219 00:25:53,180 --> 00:25:57,530 Can we not tell anybody with if? And so we go case by case. 220 00:25:57,530 --> 00:26:04,070 And this thing's very challenging the question posed by Dr. Silber. 221 00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:12,800 In fact, my first reaction is I would love to hear what you did in your longitudinal study because you have to make changes. 222 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:18,710 All, like general studies, keep changing and they will only be good if they keep changing. 223 00:26:18,710 --> 00:26:25,550 But it means you have to disappoint people. Is it going to be made even more money? 224 00:26:25,550 --> 00:26:36,020 So we struggle. Yeah, but I think if you have a contract signed in stone, I think it is that short term contract so you can make changes. 225 00:26:36,020 --> 00:26:46,610 So. Yeah, difficult. Yeah, it is difficult, of course, I'm going to say only a couple of things. 226 00:26:46,610 --> 00:26:51,350 We realise that I am in Peru. Even the bureaucrats change. 227 00:26:51,350 --> 00:26:58,310 We have no public career, so it's very easy for somebody to be in an office and say everybody here is fired 228 00:26:58,310 --> 00:27:02,780 and we're going to get other people from my party or whatever to be replaced. 229 00:27:02,780 --> 00:27:08,990 Sometimes, no. But it's true that the higher posts are more political than than the less responsibility. 230 00:27:08,990 --> 00:27:13,140 And oftentimes we engage not necessarily with a minister for some events. 231 00:27:13,140 --> 00:27:21,140 Now, if you want publicity and the press will come, then you get the minister because you're going to have filming on TV and newspaper and so forth. 232 00:27:21,140 --> 00:27:26,750 But for other more technical issues, perhaps. So you have to choose and thinking about that. 233 00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:29,000 One potential answer to your question, I guess, 234 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:35,880 is to try to reach several audiences because if you only think about policy makers, then the things might be frustrating. 235 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:42,740 So that's why I was mentioning that we bet a lot on the next generation of professionals 236 00:27:42,740 --> 00:27:47,630 to use these materials and to learn that they can be critical users of research. 237 00:27:47,630 --> 00:27:52,910 I try to describe them, not necessarily researchers, but they can read a paper. 238 00:27:52,910 --> 00:28:00,350 They can understand what it means and they can think. How does it challenge current policies or theories or whatever I do? 239 00:28:00,350 --> 00:28:07,850 What could we think makes or they come up with suggestions for that, for the study, you know, so I don't know. 240 00:28:07,850 --> 00:28:15,500 I'll keep thinking about it. But these are things like you said that we start with and I just sorry, we don't need to answer every question. 241 00:28:15,500 --> 00:28:22,760 No, no, no. I'm done. So I want to pick up on the reason I'm interrupting in ways because I just want to pick up on this point. 242 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:27,440 One of the things we've tried to do recognising that some of our colleagues 243 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,250 in the study countries are working very challenging political environments. 244 00:28:31,250 --> 00:28:39,230 We've actually sometimes tried to overcome this problem by having the publication of a message come out from somebody else. 245 00:28:39,230 --> 00:28:48,830 So, for example, some of the messages around ethnicity and ethnic differences and so on are very difficult in Ethiopia, for instance, 246 00:28:48,830 --> 00:28:58,430 because there's great sensitivity about really increasing the risk of of tension, ethnic interethnic tensions and so on. 247 00:28:58,430 --> 00:29:07,370 So sometimes it's easier for somebody in Oxford to publish a paper which really raises this as a serious policy issue than it is, 248 00:29:07,370 --> 00:29:14,390 say, for the Ethiopian team. So that's one of the ways in which I think we've sometimes we don't necessarily get it right every time. 249 00:29:14,390 --> 00:29:22,100 But I think the advantage of being in a team which includes people from many different places and different institutions is 250 00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:29,720 that it can come at it from different angles and have different people disseminating those ideas so that it reduces the risk. 251 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:38,410 I think what we're always trying to do is stay with a place at the table and you don't want to jeopardise that, 252 00:29:38,410 --> 00:29:45,200 a very valuable place you have at the table by, you know, giving something which is contrary to current orthodoxy. 253 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:52,820 But that's really hard because you're dealing with governments that are often extremely unjust and impartial in their thinking. 254 00:29:52,820 --> 00:30:00,640 So I just wanted to put that in. I don't know if it's a do you want to respond on that same issue, the two of you or do you want to move on to one? 255 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:09,320 I think I think there was a question on the embedding of, you know, how we look at institutional shifts. 256 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:16,100 I think I'd move on to that. I I don't know whether we can ever claim that we had a cultural shift to the ministry. 257 00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:20,450 I don't think we could ever do that and I wouldn't even go near that. 258 00:30:20,450 --> 00:30:27,680 But I think what you can do is, for example, just this is an example. 259 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:36,690 There's a new national policy that three draughts have been out now of education, right each. 260 00:30:36,690 --> 00:30:41,810 So what could we do? We could really build a lobby so hard because it's not just us to listen to. 261 00:30:41,810 --> 00:30:44,690 It has to be many more voices around the table. 262 00:30:44,690 --> 00:30:52,160 And I think one way of working and bringing about those cultural shifts is having a much larger lobby asking for the same thing. 263 00:30:52,160 --> 00:31:00,050 So because we now wanted secondary education to become compulsory because we realised that elementary education in itself is not enough. 264 00:31:00,050 --> 00:31:08,000 So how do you create that lobby, including wanting to keep that focus on early childhood education? 265 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:17,990 But the the current politics is such that we know women and child doesn't want to give up the piece, they want to keep it there. 266 00:31:17,990 --> 00:31:24,000 So how do I think? How do you traverse all of these? You know, there are budgetary implications for ministry. 267 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:29,210 It's a lot to do with all that. It's about egos. It's about it's not easy. 268 00:31:29,210 --> 00:31:37,190 I mean, I think it's not an easy answer to say, but yes, I think what helps is so if you have multilaterals also saying. 269 00:31:37,190 --> 00:31:41,390 Asking for the same thing all governments will listen to because they do get some funding, 270 00:31:41,390 --> 00:31:48,800 even though the government may say it's very small amounts coming from the bank or elsewhere, but nevertheless they have a seat on the table. 271 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:55,970 So it's working with those influences so that you build that voice and together you try and build that change. 272 00:31:55,970 --> 00:31:59,660 I don't think we can ever claim to have made the change ourselves. 273 00:31:59,660 --> 00:32:04,120 Not at all. All very. 274 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:11,650 All the questions very challenging, and I think that we haven't got perfect answers. 275 00:32:11,650 --> 00:32:15,550 But let me have a go at each one of them, so I'm the only ethics. 276 00:32:15,550 --> 00:32:22,580 I think the climate of ethical approval has changed quite dramatically. 277 00:32:22,580 --> 00:32:28,720 So now, you know, when we started off, the ethical approval was largely through through Oxford. 278 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,580 Now it's at least to me. Koepka in-country through the College of Health Sciences, 279 00:32:33,580 --> 00:32:39,920 that Sabay University to Japan Public Health Institute through the European Society of Sociology, 280 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:46,720 Social Works Now Topologies, most recently for some some studies, so that the sort of formal side has changed. 281 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:55,660 But that doesn't mean that there aren't very serious ethical, dynamic dilemmas about the kinds of things that Santiago was talking about. 282 00:32:55,660 --> 00:33:06,190 If we find out things that are worrying in the research about the safety of our food workers in some circumstances 283 00:33:06,190 --> 00:33:13,750 and about the question of compensation and how we justify what we're doing to the people who spend time with us, 284 00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:17,440 so we give small remuneration or set gifts. 285 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:23,080 But then you give to some and you don't give to others and people are selected and others are not selected. 286 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,740 There are no perfect solutions and it is constantly a dilemma. 287 00:33:26,740 --> 00:33:30,640 And people do ask, Well, what do I get out of it and why am I doing it? 288 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:35,380 And then you do get some people who think who really begin to enjoy talking 289 00:33:35,380 --> 00:33:39,610 about their lives and being part of something that they think is interesting, 290 00:33:39,610 --> 00:33:43,120 as we saw from some of the quotes that that Randall put up. 291 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,030 So there are no easy solutions, 292 00:33:46,030 --> 00:33:55,840 and we do do research that isn't like we're giving people a vaccine or something that's going to fundamentally change their lives. 293 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,880 And it's it is uncomfortable and there aren't any obvious solutions. 294 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:13,690 And we have to I think we have to live with it and try and struggle with explaining it in terms of the institutional versus the individual. 295 00:34:13,690 --> 00:34:19,900 I agree with Randall. I can't help when I think back, it's it's it's some individuals that really mattered. 296 00:34:19,900 --> 00:34:27,070 You know, somebody in UNICEF's that said, let's get together and why don't we start this, this forum that's now been going for 10 years. 297 00:34:27,070 --> 00:34:32,750 It was an individual, a head of a department in the Ministry of Education. 298 00:34:32,750 --> 00:34:35,830 He said, Let's do a project together and you know somebody, 299 00:34:35,830 --> 00:34:43,510 people change an office and you may be able to create some sense in an institution that what we're doing is useful, 300 00:34:43,510 --> 00:34:47,260 but we need people who think their work is important. 301 00:34:47,260 --> 00:34:51,010 I think this work is important really to make a massive difference. 302 00:34:51,010 --> 00:34:58,360 And we do struggle with the changes and we do struggle with trying to search in difficult circumstances. 303 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:07,690 And there are problems with people, with individuals, with institutions and, you know, political that at times of elections, it's difficult. 304 00:35:07,690 --> 00:35:14,020 It's risky. But somehow being there for a long time and over the time means that, you know, 305 00:35:14,020 --> 00:35:22,120 somehow we build up teams of researchers who we trust and we weed out people that we're 306 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:27,430 less comfortable with or we don't feel are doing the work as well as we would like. 307 00:35:27,430 --> 00:35:31,930 And so we now have at least in the qualitative team, but also in the deep, 308 00:35:31,930 --> 00:35:40,300 actually in Ethiopia are really people who know about how to do the research well that we can trust and work with. 309 00:35:40,300 --> 00:35:45,370 And I think that's that capacity building aspect has been very important. 310 00:35:45,370 --> 00:35:45,970 But yes, 311 00:35:45,970 --> 00:35:58,060 serendipity in who you meet and what happens and that ability to change the design and approach things in different ways is actually very key. 312 00:35:58,060 --> 00:36:07,090 And finally, to the question of what kind of of the sample size in Ethiopia so. 313 00:36:07,090 --> 00:36:17,380 The young lives, the design worked on the idea of sentinel sites rather than a representative sample, whatever that means. 314 00:36:17,380 --> 00:36:21,880 And there was a pro-poor bias and a food insecure bias. 315 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:33,820 So more of the rural sites are in the food insecure areas within the four larger regions that were selected and within the urban areas, 316 00:36:33,820 --> 00:36:37,420 more in the poorer areas of urban urban areas. 317 00:36:37,420 --> 00:36:44,110 And as I was saying that, that meant that there was more of a likelihood of those being knocked down. 318 00:36:44,110 --> 00:36:51,580 So you're right, we didn't select Somali region, and I did say in earlier on that if I was redoing this, 319 00:36:51,580 --> 00:37:01,210 I would have taken the risk of trying to do work in some of the emerging agro pastoralist areas because I think that is an important aspect. 320 00:37:01,210 --> 00:37:11,650 But attrition from a statistical point of view and economic surveys is a real risk, and we are already facing that with the older cohort. 321 00:37:11,650 --> 00:37:21,430 And so there was a call taken not to work for this particular survey in the agri pastures areas, 322 00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:27,910 although we did do some school survey work in Somali in Somali region. 323 00:37:27,910 --> 00:37:32,470 But you know that those are the kinds of decisions that have to be made. 324 00:37:32,470 --> 00:37:39,220 And then in my view, every community is representative. 325 00:37:39,220 --> 00:37:45,520 Every community is interesting. Every piece of research is a case. 326 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:51,880 If a factory is built and is knocking down most of the area or there's a redevelopment, 327 00:37:51,880 --> 00:38:00,280 that in itself is an incredibly interesting thing to to to begin to understand how people cope, how their lives are affected. 328 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,990 And so, yes, of course, it would be nice to do more research in other areas, 329 00:38:04,990 --> 00:38:12,370 but there is an incredible value in the longitudinal approach to following what goes on. 330 00:38:12,370 --> 00:38:20,830 And that's why I would like more of a community focus and understanding the political economy of change. 331 00:38:20,830 --> 00:38:31,870 I'd like to just make a little comment about this issue of ethics, of engaging with respondents over a long period of time, 332 00:38:31,870 --> 00:38:41,680 and obviously you're always challenged to reduce respondent burden as much as you can, but you're also wanting to give back. 333 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:46,510 This is not, you know, you do not want to be involved in extractive research. 334 00:38:46,510 --> 00:38:53,680 And just to give you an example of a very different view, we were we were evaluated, 335 00:38:53,680 --> 00:39:00,850 reviewed and evaluated by a team some years ago and one of the well, 336 00:39:00,850 --> 00:39:06,430 we had two teams actually evaluating us, and one of the teams was led by statisticians, 337 00:39:06,430 --> 00:39:11,980 and they were really concerned that the engagement that we had, 338 00:39:11,980 --> 00:39:20,020 the reciprocity that we were building up with these communities would contaminate the survey data, and they used the term contamination. 339 00:39:20,020 --> 00:39:26,560 So from the from the point of view of a of statistics and the statistical discipline, 340 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,880 any way in which you're researching that influences people's lives and including 341 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:36,460 where you're trying to actually give something back and perhaps even more, we you're trying to give something back because you're, you know, 342 00:39:36,460 --> 00:39:44,710 you're not wanting to be extracted that then risks changing the children's lives and changing their trajectories, 343 00:39:44,710 --> 00:39:48,640 which I think is a really interesting and valid point. 344 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,800 Personally, as an anthropologist, I would argue that everything we're doing is impacting their lives. 345 00:39:53,800 --> 00:40:01,040 Just by asking your mother whether she's vaccinated her children, you're going to make her think, Oh, should I be vaccinating my children? 346 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:06,910 Of course you're having an impact. We try to raise money, actually. Sadly, we didn't get the funding. 347 00:40:06,910 --> 00:40:12,760 We tried to raise money to actually produce a parallel sample to the young life sample in one of our 348 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:18,520 countries and to actually assess whether or not the study was having an impact in and of itself. 349 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:24,640 Because I think that some really important research exercise and I would be astonished if we didn't. 350 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:30,670 And I would just be very saddened if we hadn't in some ways, you know, benefited the children. 351 00:40:30,670 --> 00:40:37,660 However, as I think Santiago was saying, is we are selecting one child in the household, 352 00:40:37,660 --> 00:40:44,950 and we do know from the qualitative research that in some senses, the households in some context think that this is a special child. 353 00:40:44,950 --> 00:40:53,140 They were they were selected for a particular reason. And we worry then about whether, in fact, we've introduced inequality within households. 354 00:40:53,140 --> 00:40:58,210 Is this child getting more investment than the other children in the household, for example? 355 00:40:58,210 --> 00:41:01,420 So I think this is a really, really important issue. 356 00:41:01,420 --> 00:41:09,640 The the this this event is part of a series of methodological learning and lesson learning from young lives and reflection. 357 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:14,920 One of the one of the outputs from this series will be on research ethics. 358 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:22,000 These are the kinds of issues that we want to tease out. And I mean, we know that the teams have got extraordinary experience of, 359 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,660 in some cases, really painful circumstances that they've they've been dealing with. 360 00:41:26,660 --> 00:41:32,740 So how do you really deal with that as a researcher without somehow contaminating your data? 361 00:41:32,740 --> 00:41:36,670 Sorry, that's just my hobby horse. Can I ask you any more questions? 362 00:41:36,670 --> 00:41:43,780 Anybody has any further questions and don't put on any communications policy engagement. 363 00:41:43,780 --> 00:41:50,370 We've got quite a lot more into the research research from the Office of the Chief of Staff. 364 00:41:50,370 --> 00:41:57,400 But let's go first then to Robin Naughton from the George Institute for Global Health. 365 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:05,020 So you alluded to some of the positives of being part of a global group where 366 00:42:05,020 --> 00:42:12,700 sometimes Oxford can say things that people and each of the regions cannot say. 367 00:42:12,700 --> 00:42:20,680 I'd be interested to get a sense from the team of that global versus local and the positives and negatives. 368 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:32,800 All of of that. And I I guess asking the question of what do people see as was that a real asset to be part of a global team, 369 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,570 even if you are focussing on some of the local things, but vice versa? 370 00:42:37,570 --> 00:42:43,720 What was some of the negatives of that, perhaps if they exist? 371 00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:52,750 Hi, I'm Rosanna humans. I'm from Brooklyn roots and I used to work at young lives many years ago, and so I've got two questions. 372 00:42:52,750 --> 00:43:04,330 One is very quickly about Vietnam. What was Vietnam's experience like when it came to impact and engaging government? 373 00:43:04,330 --> 00:43:07,570 And the second question is a bit more personal. 374 00:43:07,570 --> 00:43:20,310 So what does one do when one has just one three year grant and is quite aware of the area, but not really the country? 375 00:43:20,310 --> 00:43:32,520 We want is working with how exactly do you set about building these relationships within three years with government agencies? 376 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:42,120 That one really doesn't know anything about and then create some meaningful impact. 377 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,650 Hello, my name is Emma Feeney. I'm also from the George Institute for Global Health, 378 00:43:46,650 --> 00:43:55,140 and I have a question about what you described as impact ology and tax return and the the issue you highlighted 379 00:43:55,140 --> 00:44:01,950 about research centres being put under pressure to make false promises in terms of the impact they can deliver. 380 00:44:01,950 --> 00:44:08,520 Clearly, young lives has had some very nice instrumental impact, which you've got a straight edge today. 381 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,960 But you reference the fact that actually a lot of the focus is on conceptual impact. 382 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:18,540 So I wondered if you had come up with a way of measuring conceptual impact that you feel 383 00:44:18,540 --> 00:44:23,370 is both valid and is also acceptable to donors that you might want to share with us? 384 00:44:23,370 --> 00:44:29,880 I wish it was addressed to you. I use that. OK? You can tell us how we can, really. 385 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:38,580 Our northern partner is buck. So I mean, I can I can respond to a few of these questions. 386 00:44:38,580 --> 00:44:50,710 I think the global versus the local. I think we in my mind, it's because we felt the real, 387 00:44:50,710 --> 00:45:00,070 tangible impact of young lives was especially the instrumental and the really important impact was going to be at the country level. 388 00:45:00,070 --> 00:45:06,280 That's why we hired country directors. I don't know why we didn't realise that we needed country directors at the very beginning. 389 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:15,640 But these guys have made a massive impact on the study in terms of the credibility of the authority, 390 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,240 the prestige, everything that they bring to the study. 391 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:26,620 We selected with great care and actually each one of them brings something very different to the table. 392 00:45:26,620 --> 00:45:34,210 You know, Brennan perhaps has more experience in policy and the other two have been more involved, perhaps in research. 393 00:45:34,210 --> 00:45:38,410 But in each case, they brought something really unique and important to the study. 394 00:45:38,410 --> 00:45:46,420 So from my perspective, it's the we. The important thing is that the country directors are part of the governance of young lives. 395 00:45:46,420 --> 00:45:56,200 So sometimes decisions get made globally in Oxford on behalf of everybody, and sometimes they get made locally. 396 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,920 But it all needs to be done in collaboration and negotiation and so on. 397 00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:08,710 I have no idea whether everybody in the team thinks it's perfect, but that's how we've tried to manage it for Vietnam. 398 00:46:08,710 --> 00:46:12,520 I don't know. We have a guy from Vietnam is actually with us in the room, 399 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:17,740 and I don't know whether Zook would would be willing or interested in in answering that question. 400 00:46:17,740 --> 00:46:25,810 I can certainly say that one of the things about Vietnam, which puts it in a slightly different category from the other three countries, 401 00:46:25,810 --> 00:46:32,050 is that our main research partner at the Centre for Economic Forecasting, 402 00:46:32,050 --> 00:46:38,740 CAF Vass, the Vietnamese Academy of Social Sciences, is a government institution, 403 00:46:38,740 --> 00:46:45,070 and our country director for Vietnam is actually one of the lead economists in the country. 404 00:46:45,070 --> 00:46:49,210 And he is the reason he's not here is because he's in so much demand. 405 00:46:49,210 --> 00:46:55,900 He's doing such important work in country at the moment that he couldn't come to Oxford during this week. 406 00:46:55,900 --> 00:47:03,160 So in a way, in Vietnam, we have a route straight into government at the most senior central level. 407 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:07,720 Each one of our country directors has emphasised the importance of being able 408 00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:11,710 to be agile and work across different ministries and institutions and so on. 409 00:47:11,710 --> 00:47:18,040 But it's incredibly labour intensive, which if you can just produce a report for the Communist Party, 410 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:23,500 for example, of a central government in Vietnam, then you're straight in at the deep end. 411 00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:26,530 And I think that's one of the big advantages that we have there. 412 00:47:26,530 --> 00:47:33,800 But on the other hand, it isn't as if in Vietnam media is a big opportunity really for for engagement. 413 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:40,390 So it's a very different style and approach that we would have in the other other countries. 414 00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:47,830 But they're moving towards the the issue of raising false promises, and I'm sure everybody has lots to say about this. 415 00:47:47,830 --> 00:47:54,210 I mean. I think it's just really important to have the donors on board from the outset. 416 00:47:54,210 --> 00:47:58,320 And I think for them to be realistic and pragmatic as well. 417 00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:07,680 I think all the donors that we've ever worked with, people who really, really believe in evidence being a very important part of policy development. 418 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:13,740 I mean, there are donors who don't actually recognise that and who are much more norms based in their approach. 419 00:48:13,740 --> 00:48:19,530 I think our donors have already self-selected themselves, and they appreciate that research is one step removed. 420 00:48:19,530 --> 00:48:25,830 It's not like intervening directly and running an NGO that actually implements things and so on. 421 00:48:25,830 --> 00:48:30,750 In terms of how we measure, we struggle with the indicators all the time. 422 00:48:30,750 --> 00:48:38,040 We've got some really boring quantitative indicators, like the number of policy briefs or the number of stakeholder events and so on. 423 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:42,540 I mean that just inputs indicators. They measure nothing, really, as far as I'm concerned. 424 00:48:42,540 --> 00:48:48,030 They just tell you about the volume of activity and maybe the amount of money and energy that's gone into it. 425 00:48:48,030 --> 00:48:56,940 Much more meaningful is to know rates, I think, particularly the conceptual impact, and we do go back quite a lot to people. 426 00:48:56,940 --> 00:49:02,100 In fact, our communications team are often very, very demanding and say, Well, 427 00:49:02,100 --> 00:49:04,740 we have a we have a say, we're having a cup of coffee and somebody says, 428 00:49:04,740 --> 00:49:10,950 Oh, I was really interested in that in that statement that Young Lives Matter and I really thought that China was really, really important. 429 00:49:10,950 --> 00:49:19,380 So the communications team says, Well, get it on paper, get it, get them to, you know, to agree to actually say that in public and so on. 430 00:49:19,380 --> 00:49:22,230 So a lot of it is through qualitative evidence of that nature. 431 00:49:22,230 --> 00:49:29,940 We do develop impact case studies, which we put onto the website sort of showing how things have evolved. 432 00:49:29,940 --> 00:49:33,510 But finally, I just wanted to say this other thing that we've mentioned. 433 00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:40,470 I think the idea of going in cold to a country starting from afresh without all those pre-existing relationships. 434 00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:46,920 I think the first thing you do is a scoping study to see who is who, the who, the people who the players are that are already out there. 435 00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:52,230 We're a small team. We're a very small research team. We need to work with multipliers. 436 00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:57,450 We need to work with intermediaries. We need to work with people who've got reach that we don't have. 437 00:49:57,450 --> 00:50:03,930 And that's been one of the most exciting things that we haven't really discussed is the extent to which our work gets commissioned by, 438 00:50:03,930 --> 00:50:14,610 say, UNESCO's, UNICEF, Oxfam or a whole range of Save the Children lots of agencies, commissioners to do studies. 439 00:50:14,610 --> 00:50:23,490 They are actually much better placed than we are to disseminate our work in many ways because they work globally and they work locally. 440 00:50:23,490 --> 00:50:27,660 They work in many more countries than we do, and they are out there doing advocacy all the time. 441 00:50:27,660 --> 00:50:32,310 So we shouldn't make it look as if we're claiming to be doing it to our own by any means, 442 00:50:32,310 --> 00:50:40,200 partnerships that we're in the Coalition to End Child Poverty, for example, which has got 25 international organisations involved. 443 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:48,270 So we often provide the evidence that they then carry forward. So I think it's about partnerships, strategic partnerships with with multipliers. 444 00:50:48,270 --> 00:50:55,420 I think I just wanted to comment on the global versus local. I think sometimes it can be a big advantage. 445 00:50:55,420 --> 00:51:00,870 And especially the Oxford brand really works with the same need the AOG at times. 446 00:51:00,870 --> 00:51:10,470 At times you have to just pretend you're an Indian research organisation, so I think you have to play to the gallery. 447 00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:17,430 That's depending on dependent very much on what the flavour of the month is. 448 00:51:17,430 --> 00:51:21,000 So I've been trying to be candid here, but that's how it is. 449 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,920 You have to, you know? 450 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:33,270 And the Oxford brand does definitely, in many cases, really add, you know, so I'm saying Oxford, not just young lives, because yes, 451 00:51:33,270 --> 00:51:37,080 they understand it's a longitudinal study, but when they hear that, OK, 452 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:44,250 so the the key technical team sits in Oxford, I think that really adds value to the work we do. 453 00:51:44,250 --> 00:51:55,140 And there is then there is a benchmarking and they think there is quality assurance in terms of the work we do in terms of, 454 00:51:55,140 --> 00:51:59,520 you know, how would you do this in three years? I think it's really difficult, Rosanna, 455 00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:06,960 to say that in three years when you have to show impact and choose the right partners and get a seat on the table, 456 00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:14,160 it's a really hard task and you have you said scoping. But you know, sometimes coping, especially in an unknown territory, is hard. 457 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:20,550 And I I mean, I know the only way to do it is if you have somebody you know who will then know other 458 00:52:20,550 --> 00:52:25,680 people who will bring that sort of the influence that you need and whether it is, 459 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:31,590 you know, the research or the policy influencing because you need different skillsets, 460 00:52:31,590 --> 00:52:39,360 I think in the team and just bringing putting that team together is not easy and it's not about qualifications, 461 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,610 it's about the experience they bring to the table, 462 00:52:41,610 --> 00:52:49,260 I think and and the relationships people have, I think that is really important and often we will know if it's. 463 00:52:49,260 --> 00:52:55,880 At a distance. So, yeah, I think that's it. 464 00:52:55,880 --> 00:53:07,280 You have to ask. Yes, I think in terms of the sort of conceptual impact, there are two things that maybe are counterintuitive, 465 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:11,870 but I think are quite important in terms of a paradigm shift. 466 00:53:11,870 --> 00:53:21,500 And the first one is that there is this tendency to think of things in terms of rather linear theories of change and love frames, et cetera. 467 00:53:21,500 --> 00:53:29,830 Whereas actually things are the reality on the ground is much more unpredictable, and it actually has to be much more collaborative. 468 00:53:29,830 --> 00:53:35,840 If it's not a question of one particular piece of evidence leading to a change. 469 00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:44,450 It's it's accumulation. It's it's it's it's the joint and darkness and also the power relations with 470 00:53:44,450 --> 00:53:49,430 those who can make decisions who can influence things that really matters. 471 00:53:49,430 --> 00:53:59,150 It's what happens behind the scenes. So and there is resistance, of course, and it's something that is gradual and there's a lot of serendipity. 472 00:53:59,150 --> 00:54:05,030 There's a lot of who you meet when and who you talk to and who talks to who. 473 00:54:05,030 --> 00:54:11,780 And so, you know, trying to trace how that happens is not a very simple thing. 474 00:54:11,780 --> 00:54:21,650 So that so that in so far, as research projects can build in an element of unpredictability and an element of letting 475 00:54:21,650 --> 00:54:29,210 things be iterative in the way that things happen and way of joining up with other actors, 476 00:54:29,210 --> 00:54:32,810 that is particularly important. So let me give you an example. 477 00:54:32,810 --> 00:54:39,650 So we were we had a grant from the Child Investment Fund Foundation to do some work on early learning, 478 00:54:39,650 --> 00:54:47,870 and it was fairly open and it was very lucky that we happened to come start the project just at the time when the cycle 479 00:54:47,870 --> 00:54:56,840 of deception and the Education Sector Development Plan was being thought out and we knew we had it was predetermined. 480 00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:03,740 We were going to work on early learning, but it was still not even sure whether we would work on health or education. 481 00:55:03,740 --> 00:55:09,650 And it so happens that the Ministry of Education was moving and the Ministry of Health was not. 482 00:55:09,650 --> 00:55:18,830 And they suddenly were expanding. The amount of early learning wanted to move from five percent to 50 percent over five years. 483 00:55:18,830 --> 00:55:26,900 And it so happened that in the team, Martin would head and those and others had expertise from other countries, 484 00:55:26,900 --> 00:55:31,160 and the European government was open to hearing about that. 485 00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:35,900 But then it was a series of open ended, an iterative approach. 486 00:55:35,900 --> 00:55:42,830 So the first thing we found out was the Ministry of Education had no idea what was happening in the regions. 487 00:55:42,830 --> 00:55:48,650 There were experts in the federal ministry in Addis who didn't know what the regions were doing. 488 00:55:48,650 --> 00:55:56,930 So going out with those experts to see what different regions were doing, which included Somalia and Benishangul, by the way. 489 00:55:56,930 --> 00:56:00,500 So we went to seven different regions where different things were happening. 490 00:56:00,500 --> 00:56:05,360 Some good, some bad, some experimental, some too rapid, some too slow. 491 00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:13,700 So really going with them and seeing what was happening. And then when we came back with findings, people said, Well, there is this oh class, 492 00:56:13,700 --> 00:56:18,950 this one year of school readiness programme that's happening in different ways, 493 00:56:18,950 --> 00:56:23,900 but nobody thought through what the colleges of teacher education are doing. 494 00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:29,930 So that meant going to the the the the colleges of teacher education. 495 00:56:29,930 --> 00:56:36,890 And then people said, Well, you know, what's the demand side, whatever what our community's doing about this? 496 00:56:36,890 --> 00:56:41,120 So another element that was not in the plan was included. 497 00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:49,190 So all I'm saying really is trying to build in a degree of unpredictability and degree of 498 00:56:49,190 --> 00:56:58,040 iteration and a degree of opportunity to respond to what seems to be the important next step. 499 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:02,450 Rather than coming with your already planned log frames, 500 00:57:02,450 --> 00:57:11,420 theories of change and assumptions of the research is going to go from A to Z in a very linear fashion. 501 00:57:11,420 --> 00:57:17,450 But then funders are not usually very open about this kind of thing. 502 00:57:17,450 --> 00:57:25,220 Very, very briefly. I don't think we have ever used sort of the Oxford argument at Oxford says. 503 00:57:25,220 --> 00:57:32,060 I don't think we have ever used that. But of course, it gives prestige to the project that it comes from here. 504 00:57:32,060 --> 00:57:39,530 And I remember once Len Pritchett, a professor from Harvard, came to Peru and started talking to how about skills, 505 00:57:39,530 --> 00:57:44,810 apparently in Vietnam and peruse, and somebody asked about Vietnam were similar in pre-school. 506 00:57:44,810 --> 00:57:49,260 And then, by the age of 15, children in Vietnam were much ahead. 507 00:57:49,260 --> 00:57:58,380 And so people, so now it was Oxford and Harvard saying something about this, 508 00:57:58,380 --> 00:58:09,100 that some people started asking about this to our country and some journalists came and said, I remember in the Latin American evaluation. 509 00:58:09,100 --> 00:58:16,380 Cuba was was achieving a high level, so they were saying maybe Cuba, Vietnam, the political system, 510 00:58:16,380 --> 00:58:23,610 this is what so we try to keep them away from very simplistic types of explanations. 511 00:58:23,610 --> 00:58:30,090 But I remember those kinds of things sometimes attract attention and and it's good for that. 512 00:58:30,090 --> 00:58:36,960 And I think the other countries are not to anything. My colleagues have said so. 513 00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:47,690 OK, so are there any more questions? All right, so I think maybe we can we can finish. 514 00:58:47,690 --> 00:58:55,910 I would like to just reflect on on a few things from because we have this long term insight, 515 00:58:55,910 --> 00:59:00,830 I suppose, into this process of of, you know, generating impact and so on. 516 00:59:00,830 --> 00:59:11,170 I think it's probably worth saying that. This there was I think it was Kathy Silver who was asking was saying about the 517 00:59:11,170 --> 00:59:15,870 the funding implications of the versatility that you need to you need to have. 518 00:59:15,870 --> 00:59:20,790 So I mean, let's be honest, young lives has been well funded in some respects, 519 00:59:20,790 --> 00:59:26,910 but it's never had the kind of money that was needed to be able to really be responsive in the ways that that everybody's been saying. 520 00:59:26,910 --> 00:59:32,670 We have had to learn to be permanent fundraisers we never stop. 521 00:59:32,670 --> 00:59:39,660 So even though we had the core funding, we've never had the luxury of just being able to sit there and and say, Well, OK, that's it. 522 00:59:39,660 --> 00:59:46,650 Job done because there is this, there's always got to be the ability to be to be agile, 523 00:59:46,650 --> 00:59:50,610 and that always takes more resources than we allow for because we always plan. 524 00:59:50,610 --> 00:59:58,300 I mean, in a longitudinal study, you do plan things well, well ahead, but you can't always change your direction without additional funds. 525 00:59:58,300 --> 01:00:06,060 So I think it's a requirement, sadly, for researchers who are not necessarily wanting to use their time on fundraising. 526 01:00:06,060 --> 01:00:14,640 And it does really does take away time. And I can't even begin to tell you the number of weeks of my time of being invested in fundraising. 527 01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:22,800 I think the other advantage that longitudinal research has over cross sectional research is that with every round, 528 01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,430 the evidence becomes more compelling. The power grows. 529 01:00:26,430 --> 01:00:35,340 And I think that this long term relationships of trust that you build to create the enabling environment with your policymakers, 530 01:00:35,340 --> 01:00:40,200 that is also matched by the fact that your data become more and more powerful with time. 531 01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:44,340 So I think it was runner who made that point that actually, 532 01:00:44,340 --> 01:00:50,550 I'm not really sure why we had all these poor policy and communications staff working so 533 01:00:50,550 --> 01:00:54,540 hard at the very beginning of young lives trying to show that we were having impact. 534 01:00:54,540 --> 01:01:01,920 Actually, now I would say to people, don't do that in the beginning starts by building the profile of your work, 535 01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:06,570 start by building your, you know, getting out there and establishing your reputation. 536 01:01:06,570 --> 01:01:11,040 This is our team. This is what we bring to the table. This is what we this is who we're talking to. 537 01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:15,600 This is what we're we. This is what we're hoping for and so on. 538 01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:20,400 And then, you know, build into the impact. 539 01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:28,770 You know, the communications and policy impact side of it will just grow at a later stage when you're ready for it because it's so frustrating. 540 01:01:28,770 --> 01:01:35,610 If you've only got one round of data or even just two rounds of data, there's not an awful lot you can say about trends. 541 01:01:35,610 --> 01:01:44,670 So I think that's that's another thing. And I think the other thing I've learnt is that it is really important to involve your donors really closely, 542 01:01:44,670 --> 01:01:51,240 have them on your advisory board, have them really have the ownership that's needed of the research. 543 01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:52,050 So they get it. 544 01:01:52,050 --> 01:02:00,020 So they understand why you have struggles, why you can't always meet your objectives, why are you being forced to shift gears and so on and so forth. 545 01:02:00,020 --> 01:02:05,490 So I think I think that relationship should not be underestimated. 546 01:02:05,490 --> 01:02:12,300 I think Al-Ula, who has made it very clear that he has a problem with some of these new templates and so on. 547 01:02:12,300 --> 01:02:17,130 Now that the impact agenda has risen so high, it's right. 548 01:02:17,130 --> 01:02:23,910 If it's public money, if it's if you know it's right that we're we're relevant and and have actually 549 01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:28,500 got a role as researchers in the world of policy and practise and so on. 550 01:02:28,500 --> 01:02:32,190 But then is it going to be achieved through these templates and so on? 551 01:02:32,190 --> 01:02:34,350 And I think he's right to be critical of them. 552 01:02:34,350 --> 01:02:41,610 But actually just in defence of the poor old log frame that's so hated by everybody and even the theory of change, 553 01:02:41,610 --> 01:02:51,870 these should be seen as organic working documents. Ours actually is changed regularly every single year it's revisited with with the donors and so on. 554 01:02:51,870 --> 01:02:55,680 We say, Look, this was unrealistic. This is we're going in a different direction. 555 01:02:55,680 --> 01:03:04,380 We're going to have to shift this. They should not be seen as set in stone and we should not feel constrained to work just to that. 556 01:03:04,380 --> 01:03:08,760 I think that's really important. But there are tools and they should be treated organically. 557 01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:14,610 But I think Alan is also right to point out there's an awful lot more going on there that 558 01:03:14,610 --> 01:03:20,340 you're not necessarily recording in these rather narrow templates and showcase that and be, 559 01:03:20,340 --> 01:03:26,820 you know, be the kind of fight back if you feel that you're, you know, you're not being, you're not. 560 01:03:26,820 --> 01:03:34,590 That research impacts are not sufficiently valued as compared to, say, intervening directly and so on. 561 01:03:34,590 --> 01:03:40,470 Some pathologies that went over that they impact ology as the word of the day. 562 01:03:40,470 --> 01:03:49,295 Thank you, everybody, very much for joining us.