1 00:00:00,060 --> 00:00:06,380 Mark, thank you so much for joining us today, and we're really delighted to have you join us. 2 00:00:06,380 --> 00:00:07,530 And you in particular, 3 00:00:07,530 --> 00:00:15,030 I know you came from a meeting with the European Parliament earlier this morning and very tired and have had a great many meetings to deal with. 4 00:00:15,030 --> 00:00:22,100 So thank you and we hope that things will proceed a little bit more smoothly. 5 00:00:22,100 --> 00:00:26,450 Thank you, thank you. And you can you can you hear me now, OK? 6 00:00:26,450 --> 00:00:31,220 Is it OK? OK, OK, I'll try and see how it goes. 7 00:00:31,220 --> 00:00:36,770 Yeah, but thank you. Thank you for having me in this panel. 8 00:00:36,770 --> 00:00:44,030 Yeah, the technical situation was quite unfortunate, but I will try to cover as much as I can. 9 00:00:44,030 --> 00:00:50,270 Still, my name is Kalma and I just to relate to today's topic. 10 00:00:50,270 --> 00:00:57,350 I just want to start sharing with you that I was a student activist back in 1988, 11 00:00:57,350 --> 00:01:04,250 20 years old in the final year of the university, when the the same military, 12 00:01:04,250 --> 00:01:15,820 of course, but under the different leadership when the brutally cracked down on our peaceful demonstrations, I actually also was one of. 13 00:01:15,820 --> 00:01:28,180 Thousands who decided to lead into the ethnic revolutionary, these areas to take up the armed struggle, 14 00:01:28,180 --> 00:01:34,060 to take up the armed struggle to fight this military regime. 15 00:01:34,060 --> 00:01:40,420 Of course, you know, like that time, I had no idea what armed struggle means. 16 00:01:40,420 --> 00:01:45,010 I had no idea what can or anything like that. 17 00:01:45,010 --> 00:01:50,470 And in fact, I've never held any gun in my head, even though my hope, of course, 18 00:01:50,470 --> 00:01:59,410 of leaving home with this feeling of heartbreak and outrage of how our young people, 19 00:01:59,410 --> 00:02:06,950 the young students spoke where to lead this country were killed brutally on the street. 20 00:02:06,950 --> 00:02:11,470 That's also like being chased down to be arrested. 21 00:02:11,470 --> 00:02:16,570 And that is something that the immediate response was we'll take up the armed struggle. 22 00:02:16,570 --> 00:02:21,460 So now I'm like, of course, after many years, I think, like, why did I think that? 23 00:02:21,460 --> 00:02:26,170 Why did I think that I would take up the armed struggle? And it's I think it's very simple for us. 24 00:02:26,170 --> 00:02:30,730 I'm not so sure more will agree. David will agree with me. 25 00:02:30,730 --> 00:02:42,370 I think like throughout our past generations and until now, you know, in the history, it's all about the the Burma Kings defeating the others. 26 00:02:42,370 --> 00:02:51,310 And you know, it's all about the the the independence struggle, you know, from the British occupation, 27 00:02:51,310 --> 00:02:59,050 Japanese occupation and everything you know of their country's history from the start and before is all about the armed struggle. 28 00:02:59,050 --> 00:03:04,870 I think we learnt we learnt all of these in the in the school. I think it's all internalised. 29 00:03:04,870 --> 00:03:13,360 So when we were, we faced this injustice, the violence, I think immediate normal human reaction. 30 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:21,310 I think that was the the responding to the armed struggle to do the two, to think about it, to take up the arms. 31 00:03:21,310 --> 00:03:24,880 I think that's what happened to me. At least that's what I can. 32 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,910 I can. I can speak for myself. 33 00:03:27,910 --> 00:03:37,750 But of course, like you know, when I got into the ethnic areas, I got into the modern ethnic Revolutionary Army area called the new monastic army. 34 00:03:37,750 --> 00:03:42,280 And then a day in the in the area, 35 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:52,710 I will have to say that that's where I really came to understand how deep the the that the problems in our country because throughout my life, 36 00:03:52,710 --> 00:03:57,940 you know, I, even though I mix with the different ethnic ethnic groups, 37 00:03:57,940 --> 00:04:06,460 I was a part of the product of the abomination policy of the successive military regimes in the country. 38 00:04:06,460 --> 00:04:10,270 So I I am under the category of Burma, the majority. 39 00:04:10,270 --> 00:04:22,660 Yeah, and I speak only by my language. So with that, you know, when I came into the jungle, I was like a receipt as a Burma majority, 40 00:04:22,660 --> 00:04:28,090 a part of the majority in the eyes of the ethnic communities for them, 41 00:04:28,090 --> 00:04:36,130 anyone who speak Burmese and only Burmese, you know, unless they can prove that they are both parents are from different ethnic, 42 00:04:36,130 --> 00:04:41,890 whether the chin or the Koran, then anyone who speak only Burmese. 43 00:04:41,890 --> 00:04:50,560 And, you know, perhaps they're different from the different ethnic composition will be immediately labelled as Burma majority. 44 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:59,230 So I remember in my very beginning days all the weeks of learning from the ethnic 45 00:04:59,230 --> 00:05:05,620 Hmong youth who were looking at me with the eyes that they don't like me, 46 00:05:05,620 --> 00:05:13,900 they just don't like me. And I have a basically I have above 50 percent of my blood after a month. 47 00:05:13,900 --> 00:05:18,730 But then when I see that, I see that they just don't like me here. 48 00:05:18,730 --> 00:05:22,570 And I think, you know, I came to really look for the answer. 49 00:05:22,570 --> 00:05:29,950 Try to understand, try to understand their situation, try to understand the circumstances that they are in and they've been through. 50 00:05:29,950 --> 00:05:39,940 And also the suffering and the pain that they have had to endure and are this dominant policy of the military regime who are primarily, 51 00:05:39,940 --> 00:05:46,540 you know, with the Burma centric policies of adoption and implementation. 52 00:05:46,540 --> 00:05:54,310 So I think that's where to me, all of my life as a human rights and democracy activist from Burma. 53 00:05:54,310 --> 00:06:08,400 More than 30 years of my experience, money activism has been directed by the ethnic brothers, ethnic brothers and sisters that I met in the jungle. 54 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,800 And my human rights principles and my ongoing work. 55 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:22,830 Focussing on the justice and accountability and human rights protection also has been directed from those old days, I would say. 56 00:06:22,830 --> 00:06:27,720 So I really value. I just wanted to share with you that first. 57 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,460 But also like, this is the time I really come to understand. 58 00:06:30,460 --> 00:06:41,050 Like first I can hear in the world of the Berman ization or the bomber is the enemy, you know, beyond which is in Korean is. 59 00:06:41,050 --> 00:06:49,960 Enemy, so I also come to understand how the Tatmadaw has been using this full cuts policy 60 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:55,300 and targeting the ethnic communities and also through on my activist life, 61 00:06:55,300 --> 00:07:04,340 I've come to be meeting with and meeting with countless survivors of the military's abuses know from different ethnic communities, 62 00:07:04,340 --> 00:07:10,480 you know, like those who had to stay the whole life as internally displaced in the refugee camps. 63 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:17,140 All those women who actually are survivors of the military rape. 64 00:07:17,140 --> 00:07:26,350 So I think this is something it's important for me to share with you because now, as I've been given the outline of today's discussion, 65 00:07:26,350 --> 00:07:32,080 what I want to share with you today is that how I see the current movement and also 66 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:37,840 comparing a little bit of the the the the the previous of our generation time, 67 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,220 I heard from Tim, but I think I told my team teams I'm sorry. It's a very, 68 00:07:42,220 --> 00:07:48,430 very large point of him talking about how he's worried about the young people taking the trainings 69 00:07:48,430 --> 00:07:55,630 and going back or planning to go back into the cities and urban without having a proper strategy. 70 00:07:55,630 --> 00:08:01,720 I just want to say that to me, I take it as very natural. 71 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,970 You know, these are the young people. I was one of those back in 1988. 72 00:08:06,970 --> 00:08:18,070 Had no idea. But what I heard, what I see that the young people today have that I think what David was also sharing with us is a clear, 73 00:08:18,070 --> 00:08:30,880 conscious determination and defiance and preserver and and that they are also now are being creative in terms of like carrying on with their people, 74 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:40,830 carrying on with the peaceful demonstrations. Also using the online social media is also coming up with the creative ideas of using the arts, 75 00:08:40,830 --> 00:08:52,690 using the music poems and in many, many ways to continue to defy this brutal and lawful military attempted military coup. 76 00:08:52,690 --> 00:08:54,190 Four and a half months ago. 77 00:08:54,190 --> 00:09:05,290 So that's why we are seeing the strength of the movement is not only depending on those youth who decided to take a different path. 78 00:09:05,290 --> 00:09:09,430 Going into the jungle, joining the organisations. 79 00:09:09,430 --> 00:09:19,480 Not joining the joining but being there and tried to take the arms training for the purpose of defending the people. 80 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:24,610 And that also includes defending themselves because we have to remember that they 81 00:09:24,610 --> 00:09:30,340 are the survivors of the current ongoing violence of the the the military junta, 82 00:09:30,340 --> 00:09:35,520 like I am a survivor of the 1988 uprising. 83 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:43,540 If I got called, if I got shot and killed on the street or if I got caught and end up in prison, 84 00:09:43,540 --> 00:09:47,560 I probably would not have had a chance to be sharing with you on duty. 85 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:52,230 Of all of the things that I'm sharing, I think like, you know, that day, 86 00:09:52,230 --> 00:09:59,830 the current movement that I see is so different than on time back in 1988 because there are many factors. 87 00:09:59,830 --> 00:10:08,320 But I'm not going to go into detail of every three factors, but I just want to see the strength of the people that I just share with you. 88 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:13,270 The generations from the previous time, from our generation of nineteen, 89 00:10:13,270 --> 00:10:18,220 eighty eight and Korean on, they all are joining the current young generation. 90 00:10:18,220 --> 00:10:25,540 They call themselves Generation Z. I think it's really important to see that generational, you know, 91 00:10:25,540 --> 00:10:31,300 resistance to this military as much as the ethnic communities like the current in the kitchen. 92 00:10:31,300 --> 00:10:38,380 They are also like resisting this military tyranny of, you know, through different generations. 93 00:10:38,380 --> 00:10:50,410 So now the the majority Burma from urban and central Burma areas are actually now also joining the generations to fight against this hunger. 94 00:10:50,410 --> 00:10:57,280 And then at the same time, what we're seeing is something we never had in the in the nineteen eighty eight, even though we had a little bit, 95 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:03,520 which is the civil servant and public sector and private sector workers joining now it's 96 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:09,820 that we hung their joint is more active than the passive in a way know in our time. 97 00:11:09,820 --> 00:11:15,910 They joined us on the streets when we were marching on the streets for a shorter period of time before the, 98 00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:22,570 you know, by the time the military crackdown shooting shootings on the street, those demonstrations stop. 99 00:11:22,570 --> 00:11:30,970 Yeah. But now, after four and a half months, you see that the the teachers and doctors and, you know, different administration start. 100 00:11:30,970 --> 00:11:37,690 They continue to be continuing with this non-cooperation to this military junta. 101 00:11:37,690 --> 00:11:41,140 They're not going back to work, they're not going back to school. That's it. 102 00:11:41,140 --> 00:11:46,450 So I think this is something that that this current military regime, probably this military junta, 103 00:11:46,450 --> 00:11:51,280 probably don't know what to do with that, which I find it as quite inspirational. 104 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,360 But then I just want to say that, you know, I'm sure that you heard from Duterte. 105 00:11:55,360 --> 00:12:00,100 There is a looming humanitarian crisis in the country, not only in the ethnic areas, 106 00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:05,350 because of the the airstrikes by this military junta, but also in the country. 107 00:12:05,350 --> 00:12:10,090 There are also different pockets of the the the looming humanitarian crisis. 108 00:12:10,090 --> 00:12:20,260 Pockets are happening already. But what we are seeing also the so that those that the people's social fabric is coming to be stronger, 109 00:12:20,260 --> 00:12:24,100 they are helping out each other, caring and sharing one another. 110 00:12:24,100 --> 00:12:28,330 And this is all happening to cope with the looming humanitarian crisis. 111 00:12:28,330 --> 00:12:32,800 I think this is something that we need to see how when we are to think about like, you know, 112 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:41,500 strategize that what can be practical support to the people of Burma in their aspirations and continuing and struggle to get democracy. 113 00:12:41,500 --> 00:12:49,020 I think this is so important that I would like to share with you. But then I just want to come back to this. 114 00:12:49,020 --> 00:12:53,470 The idea that the armed struggle of the young people in particular, 115 00:12:53,470 --> 00:12:59,800 but in the ethnic areas is not only the young people who are taking the armed struggle arms training, 116 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:06,350 but also they are like civil disobedience movement like doctors and engineers and even the. 117 00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:16,430 As an artist. They are there, and of course, I'm not so sure like what would be their ongoing contribution to the to the current movement. 118 00:13:16,430 --> 00:13:19,700 But I just want to see that like the last ten years, 119 00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:30,500 in spite of the very limited space and freedom that people were able to enjoy or exercise under the military control of the US, 120 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:35,900 these last nine years have helped them build up the strong relationship. 121 00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:41,690 And that is the very reason. I think one of the reasons that you see why the young people are coming to be more like 122 00:13:41,690 --> 00:13:47,180 showing their sympathy and empathy and understanding of the ethnic people struggle. 123 00:13:47,180 --> 00:13:57,710 One, especially once they get into the ethnic areas. So this is something that I find as a very positive for Burma to move forward. 124 00:13:57,710 --> 00:14:02,620 Of course, how, how, how sustainable this unity. 125 00:14:02,620 --> 00:14:12,320 I'm not I'm not in favour. Much of this word unity because our country always been in like, I've faced this false unity by the military all the time. 126 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:17,480 So it's more of this solidarity, more of this like like a sharing of each other's, you know, 127 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:26,510 like coming to be like having this collective vision of the federal democracy that people are now across the country calling for. 128 00:14:26,510 --> 00:14:31,490 I think we have a chance this is in my lifetime. Probably this is the first time. 129 00:14:31,490 --> 00:14:36,740 I mean, this is the first and not even probably this is the first time I've ever seen with them 130 00:14:36,740 --> 00:14:41,570 that the biggest opportunity and the chance for us to move forward as a larger community, 131 00:14:41,570 --> 00:14:47,840 a country. But of course, there are a lot of a lot of challenges that I want to share with you. 132 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,550 That's going to be my last one because I think we want to have more discussion and the 133 00:14:52,550 --> 00:14:57,180 challenges that I want to share with and share with you is the situation on the ground. 134 00:14:57,180 --> 00:15:02,690 You know, in addition to the military's ongoing terror campaign against the people across the country, 135 00:15:02,690 --> 00:15:06,410 the situation on the ground is so fragile and volatile. 136 00:15:06,410 --> 00:15:13,910 So they are not only attacking the ethnic communities and across the country, but also they are blocking the humanitarian aid. 137 00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:17,030 And also at the same time you see this, 138 00:15:17,030 --> 00:15:25,190 there are the civilian wings of the military who have been serving the military to prolong their power throughout the past decades, 139 00:15:25,190 --> 00:15:29,840 and they continue to be serving that interest for the military. 140 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:37,360 But this time they are taking up the arms, and these are also the former military people. 141 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:43,010 Know these are like a war veteran people who are taken off the arms who are already 142 00:15:43,010 --> 00:15:48,410 attacking the National League for Democracy and Civil Disobedience Movement members and 143 00:15:48,410 --> 00:15:54,380 many of the people that are now very wary of how this particular group with the arms 144 00:15:54,380 --> 00:16:01,220 from the military side are going to be speeding up with their attacks to the people. 145 00:16:01,220 --> 00:16:09,030 I think we have to also look at that there is a this military always been successful using to divide and rule and divide and rule. 146 00:16:09,030 --> 00:16:17,840 They will do a lot of divide and rules, but also one of the the situation is also the creating the religious tension, 147 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,980 particularly the Muslim minority communities across the country. 148 00:16:21,980 --> 00:16:26,420 Of course, the Rohingya community faced a genocide three years ago. 149 00:16:26,420 --> 00:16:32,390 But also, there are many different other smaller Muslim communities across the country. 150 00:16:32,390 --> 00:16:39,440 They are always used by the successive military regimes whenever there is a people resent. 151 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,370 People are resenting their power and they use this religious card. 152 00:16:43,370 --> 00:16:47,240 And this is something this particular group that I should I tell it. 153 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:53,870 I just share with you the civilian uniforms, with the car, with the arms and guns. 154 00:16:53,870 --> 00:17:02,320 They are the one who will be creating such kind of chaos. So this is there are a lot of these things that we will have to watch out for. 155 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:15,260 But my last point in all of that, like I said, this time is the best I have seen out of this whole like a is like a desperate, desperate crisis. 156 00:17:15,260 --> 00:17:25,010 This is the first time I have ever seen that our country have seen the light to move forward as a collective society. 157 00:17:25,010 --> 00:17:29,540 I just want to add Thank you. Omar, thank you so much. 158 00:17:29,540 --> 00:17:34,580 Thank you. Those, your comments are so insightful and they buy so many issues as well. 159 00:17:34,580 --> 00:17:42,050 And it's really interesting where you see this as a as a real sea change as well in terms of the depth of the solidarity, 160 00:17:42,050 --> 00:17:49,520 as you say, rather than the unity. And I hope that we have to come back to that at the end of the session as well to explore it more. 161 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:56,390 But it's a good moment now to move on to Martin, who can also bring a kind of long term perspective on this and see how your 162 00:17:56,390 --> 00:18:02,840 perspectives join or where the discussion actually evolves in relation to them. 163 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,140 So if we could now move over to Martin and. 164 00:18:06,140 --> 00:18:12,860 If you could take the floor now, Martin, and perhaps give us your insights, so it would be fantastic, thank you. 165 00:18:12,860 --> 00:18:17,080 OK? Can you give me a thumbs up if you can hear me clearly? Great. 166 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:24,040 I want very much to follow on from Panama, and I'm sorry to say for technical reasons, I didn't hear Tom and David. 167 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:29,590 So I do hope that I follow on from from what they've said as well. 168 00:18:29,590 --> 00:18:32,350 I want to make a number of points very quickly. 169 00:18:32,350 --> 00:18:41,710 I think these are revolutionary times and as any revolutionary era, it's very difficult to make a linear narrative. 170 00:18:41,710 --> 00:18:44,200 What I think is important, as we've been hearing, 171 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:51,820 is that this present spring revolution is not the first cycle of political breakdown, nor is it the forced first coup in a country. 172 00:18:51,820 --> 00:18:57,430 One remains one of the most conflict divided since independence in 1988. 173 00:18:57,430 --> 00:19:02,530 And what we're seeing is a clash between the unaddressed legacies of the past and the very progressive 174 00:19:02,530 --> 00:19:09,430 aspirations for the future and which is presently very difficult to know where this is going to prevail. 175 00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:13,540 And there have been too many disappointments in the past for naive optimism. 176 00:19:13,540 --> 00:19:20,350 Now, I think in historical terms, the parallels am very strong, with 48, 62 and 88. 177 00:19:20,350 --> 00:19:25,330 And these came to define the government's errors after independence. 178 00:19:25,330 --> 00:19:31,030 Of course, many people are now saying that there are many parallels to Generation Z and the 88 students, 179 00:19:31,030 --> 00:19:38,800 but I would say the longer this crisis goes on, we're getting more and more similar to the 1962 military coup. 180 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,390 I think we can make arguments about the legitimacy of the 2008 Constitution, 181 00:19:43,390 --> 00:19:52,330 but I think what is the message to the people from the February coup is that the Tatmadaw are once again saying that the only way is our way. 182 00:19:52,330 --> 00:19:58,090 And I think this is also an important message for the international community, especially those development agencies, 183 00:19:58,090 --> 00:20:06,400 which in recent years have had an idea that you can transform progressive dictatorships, as they call it, by incremental reforms. 184 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:13,690 Well, I think that's no longer the case. As we can see, the country is again one of the most conflicted biases in the country. 185 00:20:13,690 --> 00:20:22,990 So how will it politically unfold? I want to draw attention, attention to the emerging trends, and I want to do this by showing some slides. 186 00:20:22,990 --> 00:20:28,030 I do this not simply for simplicity, but we're talking about matters of life and death. 187 00:20:28,030 --> 00:20:35,590 And I think it's absolutely important that we see the human side to the enormous sufferings under way. 188 00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:40,870 And I think the challenge is to prevent the obstacles, the past becoming problems for the future. 189 00:20:40,870 --> 00:20:48,130 And I just wanted to make two observations, which I think hold the challenges in context, a kind of international context. 190 00:20:48,130 --> 00:20:52,900 I think first, we need to remember many countries suffered from the disruptions of colonial rule. 191 00:20:52,900 --> 00:21:00,340 But I think in Burma, Myanmar, they were especially acute. And I think secondly, as Omar has just been explaining, 192 00:21:00,340 --> 00:21:06,700 although we often talk about three groupings in politics the military, the pro-democracy and the ethnic. 193 00:21:06,700 --> 00:21:12,910 In fact, there's a dysfunction at the heart of the Burmese state, which we have to understand, and that is the competition. 194 00:21:12,910 --> 00:21:18,760 A kind of winner takes all politics amongst the mainstream or Burma majority parties at the centre. 195 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,000 And I would argue that it's there, the problems originate, 196 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:28,420 and then they permeate out into the ethnic states and regions where they very often get worse. 197 00:21:28,420 --> 00:21:46,740 So I'll turn to these slides. Can you tell me if they're showing? 198 00:21:46,740 --> 00:21:49,260 They're showing Martin. Brilliant. OK. 199 00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:57,300 Well, I think first of all, this is from a documentary I made in 88 89 on the left, and we've got student demonstrators today. 200 00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:04,620 There are the many parallels. The students were the catalyst for change in 88, and there are again today and today we have social media. 201 00:22:04,620 --> 00:22:13,050 But one thing has not changed. It's the indiscriminate, free violence that the security forces are prepared to use in shooting unarmed demonstrators. 202 00:22:13,050 --> 00:22:20,130 This might have shocked international diplomats, but in the ethnic minority areas, it's always been a reality. 203 00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:25,590 And in 2017 and during the crackdown or the army operations against the Rohingya population, 204 00:22:25,590 --> 00:22:32,340 we had a recent reminder which has led to investigations at the International Criminal Court about potential war crimes. 205 00:22:32,340 --> 00:22:39,810 These things have been long well documented, as Callamard said she probably recognised as some people there. 206 00:22:39,810 --> 00:22:44,010 This happened in a very similar way. In 88 89. 207 00:22:44,010 --> 00:22:49,080 The Old Burma Student's Democratic Front is their first Congress on the left, and as you can see, 208 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:57,000 they brought with the memories of the violence, which had led them to take to the forest to try and begin a generation of new struggle. 209 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:04,650 But at that time, I think very few of them realised the long struggles and hardships which awaited them. 210 00:23:04,650 --> 00:23:07,890 And of course, as I was saying, they entered a very different world. 211 00:23:07,890 --> 00:23:14,880 This is a world of people about which many people in Burma, in the central of the country knew few of the struggles on the left here. 212 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:22,230 You can see a Korean Revolution Day and on the right. These are women soldiers of the new Mon State Army. 213 00:23:22,230 --> 00:23:27,570 And the important thing here is to remember it wasn't only about the towns in 88 89. 214 00:23:27,570 --> 00:23:36,120 The new one State Army also party received over a thousand young Hmong students who also joined their cause. 215 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:42,900 And the same things are happening now in, particularly in the chin, chin and the Karenni areas. 216 00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:48,990 We've got lots of young people coming to take to take up new levels of struggle, 217 00:23:48,990 --> 00:23:57,570 and some come to take up arms and some come to try and achieve new forms of political protest. 218 00:23:57,570 --> 00:24:01,590 And I think this leads to the key issue that we maybe need to focus on. 219 00:24:01,590 --> 00:24:10,710 This is the issue of united fronts. It's a communist term and it's been in Burma's politics since independence of 48kHz. 220 00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:15,240 It's a long running theme between the central military government and the United Fronts. 221 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:21,120 And just to give you an idea, the parallels are not just simply 88. Nineteen 1990 In this photograph, 222 00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:27,600 you can see the casually to bring saying the cane you need a permit and next to them is actually Aung San Suu Kyi's cousin, 223 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:37,080 Dr. Sanguin, who was a member of Parliament, and they formed the exile in Cuba, which has so many parallels with the present day Enugu. 224 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:43,830 So we're not just seeing the uprising, we're seeing the fall out from the protests and on the right you can see the issue then 225 00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:49,570 is how are these groups going to align and work effectively with existing united fronts? 226 00:24:49,570 --> 00:24:57,300 And one of the rights is that is a notice board of probably the most successful ethnic front the federal seeking 227 00:24:57,300 --> 00:25:04,860 national democratic front and the students joined with this group in a new alliance in Cuba and others. 228 00:25:04,860 --> 00:25:12,810 But the important thing here is that the A.F., which was set up in 76, its fight has always been for a democratic union, 229 00:25:12,810 --> 00:25:19,230 and in a way it's important to remember that this has become mainstream today. 230 00:25:19,230 --> 00:25:23,280 So far, so good, but then we cannot ignore the human cost. 231 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,000 What is it going to be after they've seised power in 88? 232 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:33,390 One of the Tatmadaw leaders, General Suleiman, said them over a million people had died in conflicts since independence. 233 00:25:33,390 --> 00:25:37,170 But we're now 30 years later. So how many more people are going to die? 234 00:25:37,170 --> 00:25:43,170 And on the left is a Cubase clear day, which was burnt out shortly after the students arrived. 235 00:25:43,170 --> 00:25:52,590 And on the right is a cemetery at law in the early nineties and in those graves of students, Karen and other people who joined the armed struggle. 236 00:25:52,590 --> 00:26:02,190 And so we have to really wonder how much longer this kind of conflict will end, which goes around in a circle. 237 00:26:02,190 --> 00:26:06,750 And this, I think, then leads to an next point I wanted to make. 238 00:26:06,750 --> 00:26:11,610 And this is an academic audience primarily today, 239 00:26:11,610 --> 00:26:20,370 and I would really stress that although we've had some academics who've come up with important detail on the Myanmar military in Myanmar politics, 240 00:26:20,370 --> 00:26:30,420 I don't think anybody's got to the heart of the conflicts. And what I find this, what I'm saying is that. 241 00:26:30,420 --> 00:26:36,000 What is the purpose of the Tatmadaw? What are they trying to do after half a century in power? 242 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:43,020 And this issue was raised to me in 1987 by Kunsthalle, who is one of the great survivors in on politics on the left there. 243 00:26:43,020 --> 00:26:49,560 And he was the head of time head of a group which is today supplied by the R.C.S, which has a cease with the government. 244 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,930 And he surprised me. He said the conflicts in Myanmar are not a real war. 245 00:26:54,930 --> 00:27:00,840 You said real wars have aims and objectives. They have winners and losers and they have time frames. 246 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,010 But in Burma, as it then was, it's a way of life. 247 00:27:05,010 --> 00:27:11,670 And I think 30 years later, his words have a special resonance because on the surface, what he said might seem superficial. 248 00:27:11,670 --> 00:27:14,670 But we have to ask ourselves, is this a failed state? 249 00:27:14,670 --> 00:27:21,060 It has to be one each of us in a peace process with the government, some with ceasefires and some without. 250 00:27:21,060 --> 00:27:29,670 There are about 100 Border Guard forces and up to 100 and militias with up to a thousand or more troops, such as this picture on the right. 251 00:27:29,670 --> 00:27:37,620 This is a militia guy in the northern Shan state, which is a breakaway from a former cease fire, a cease fire group. 252 00:27:37,620 --> 00:27:46,200 And by the Tatmadaw's reckoning, even before the present events that are about 6000 small militia with several dozen members in the country. 253 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,280 And what is happening now rather spontaneously? 254 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:58,770 It's not only the energy. Although the military government, which are forming new militias, it's actually independent groups such as in Chin State. 255 00:27:58,770 --> 00:28:06,600 What they're doing on and this really is troubling because I think we need to draw two conclusions from this, one of which has been very neglected. 256 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,890 There are two streams to the transition which is needed in the country. 257 00:28:10,890 --> 00:28:17,310 One is political, which is about the NLD and Military Political Transformation Commission constitutional change. 258 00:28:17,310 --> 00:28:22,740 But people ignore the military that's absolutely uppermost most in the minds of the SABC. 259 00:28:22,740 --> 00:28:29,130 And it always has been in the Tatmadaw leaders. And I would say from this, they've become the experts in managing conflicts. 260 00:28:29,130 --> 00:28:35,880 But they don't know how to resolve it. You have to remember that actually on the battlefield, they've not defeated any enemy. 261 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,240 All the groups either collapsed or survived still today. 262 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,910 And if you think that's some sort of exaggeration, I think these two photographs encapsulate what I'm talking about. 263 00:28:45,910 --> 00:28:50,980 What you see today is what's not what might happen tomorrow. On the left is a cease fire. 264 00:28:50,980 --> 00:28:59,800 A ceremony of the chaos in the late 1990s with Tatmadaw leaders and on the right is a much younger Mutasa, 265 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:06,700 who is now today the KNU chair, and he was one of the strongest fighters well at that time. 266 00:29:06,700 --> 00:29:13,540 The king, who was staying with the NCBI and joining with the Democratic opposition in the kerato, made a cease fire with the government. 267 00:29:13,540 --> 00:29:17,770 Like many of the elders at that time and today the situation is completely reversed. 268 00:29:17,770 --> 00:29:24,520 It's the coup and many of those groups the north east of the country, who have refused ceasefires or not been offered them, 269 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:30,670 whereas the KNU, the all access and then mostly smaller factions have joined this NCAA process. 270 00:29:30,670 --> 00:29:36,040 It's the only kind of paper credibility the EU has after about 70 years of armed struggle. 271 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:43,450 So they're trying to hold on to that today. But the question is, what will the fallout be in the coming weeks and months? 272 00:29:43,450 --> 00:29:48,160 And you've got to remember these are not small organisations, and we shouldn't ignore the communities. 273 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,990 The community aspect amongst the left is the United States Party Harmony. 274 00:29:52,990 --> 00:30:02,110 This is a tin factory that they have in the ethnic areas. There's gold trade, rare earths, which become increasing issue of timber. 275 00:30:02,110 --> 00:30:06,910 These are the main natural resources, which is absolutely fuelling the greed and grievance debate. 276 00:30:06,910 --> 00:30:12,190 And on the rights of some Kachin civil society people, they also want to be part of these discussions. 277 00:30:12,190 --> 00:30:19,990 It's already causing problems. Since the coup that you have a situation where the SDC are making announcements and the Uchiha making announcements, 278 00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:25,810 and then the ethnic people on the ground and saying, Hold on, you're talking about us, you know, are you going to be part of these discussions? 279 00:30:25,810 --> 00:30:34,480 So there's big challenges, as Camomile has been saying about how do the opposition groups now line up with these factors? 280 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:41,320 And so coming to an end, I think that this is the sad reality that we have in the last three months. 281 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:48,520 So much has changed in the last year. Just a year ago, the American army was the biggest enemy of the Tatmadaw. 282 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,850 And since the November election, they have an informal ceasefire. 283 00:30:51,850 --> 00:30:55,750 At that time, the Korean and National Union had a ceasefire, and now it's under strain. 284 00:30:55,750 --> 00:31:04,390 So here's a photograph in the Korean Hills scene, which is happening in Karimi and Chin and Kachin areas where they're sheltering from bombs. 285 00:31:04,390 --> 00:31:13,790 And here is the picture in Yangon, where you see the young protesters with their aspirations for rejecting the military coup. 286 00:31:13,790 --> 00:31:24,540 They're talking about something very different. And I think then I would just finish with these two photographs on the left is the first battalion 287 00:31:24,540 --> 00:31:31,530 of Aberdare students who were trained in 1999 and on the right you have the young people today. 288 00:31:31,530 --> 00:31:38,790 This is the ethnic alliance in Yangon waving their flags and trying to put forth the 289 00:31:38,790 --> 00:31:45,420 cause for the abolition of the 2008 Constitution and a federal union of Myanmar. 290 00:31:45,420 --> 00:31:53,920 So I would just go back to screen briefly here. Am I back on screen? 291 00:31:53,920 --> 00:32:00,580 Yes, you are, Martin. OK. So I think that would be the final point I wanted to make. 292 00:32:00,580 --> 00:32:04,270 We shouldn't get over sidetracked by the failures of the past, 293 00:32:04,270 --> 00:32:10,930 but they cannot be ignored because this is the it's deeply embedded in the fabric of Myanmar politics. 294 00:32:10,930 --> 00:32:18,580 I think as Kilimall made the points in 1988, the students actually won because they brought down the Burmese way to socialism. 295 00:32:18,580 --> 00:32:27,220 The tragedy was it took another 20 years of impassioned conflict till the military came up with their own idea, which was the 2008 Constitution. 296 00:32:27,220 --> 00:32:31,730 And I think the importance of 2021 is the new movement has already ended. 297 00:32:31,730 --> 00:32:35,320 But side of the debates, the military will try and hang on. 298 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:40,300 They would try and have elections in two years, which is one of their proxy parties will win. 299 00:32:40,300 --> 00:32:46,120 But the fact is is that the whole world and the Myanmar people have shown that they want meaningful change. 300 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,500 So I think in the age of social media, we are into a very different struggles. 301 00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:56,560 I think the resource issues raise huge questions. The geopolitics are very different as they were in 88. 302 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,750 But I think the key thing and that's the message that the the new and different groups 303 00:33:01,750 --> 00:33:07,150 have to show if they're going to win the public over is that they have the solutions, 304 00:33:07,150 --> 00:33:11,920 the people want peace, they want prosperity and they want an end to these cycles of conflict. 305 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:20,170 And they will be wanting these approaches in 2021 to start very much sooner rather than later. 306 00:33:20,170 --> 00:33:29,030 So I'll finish there. Thank you, Martin. 307 00:33:29,030 --> 00:33:36,930 Thank you so much, Martin, for that very powerful laying out of just so many issues in such a concise and clear way. 308 00:33:36,930 --> 00:33:42,160 And I think the way you juxtapose those images as well was incredibly helpful just 309 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:47,590 to show both the similarities and differences between these two important phases. 310 00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:53,660 And I think we are very fortunate we've got about 10 minutes left that we can actually have some questions. 311 00:33:53,660 --> 00:33:59,890 And the one question that we've got in the charts at the moment very much relates to that juxtaposition. 312 00:33:59,890 --> 00:34:05,300 What happened between those two, those two points, which also out referred to as well? 313 00:34:05,300 --> 00:34:10,220 And can I just ask the audience if you could please pop any questions that you do have into 314 00:34:10,220 --> 00:34:16,280 the Q&A box and we might have the time to go through a couple more if you do have any others. 315 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,150 So I'll just read the question, which has been sent in, 316 00:34:20,150 --> 00:34:28,160 says the international community has been busy resourcing mostly Yangon based CSOs the last decade. 317 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:37,100 Are these professional groups of any value in this situation? What lessons can we learn for future support in Myanmar civil society? 318 00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:44,430 So if Omar Martin in particular, would you like to respond to those to that question? 319 00:34:44,430 --> 00:34:48,330 Omar, would you like to respond? Sure, sure. 320 00:34:48,330 --> 00:34:55,800 So the question is, are those Yangon based CSOs, whether they've been helpful? 321 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,430 Yes, I'll read it again, it's in the Q&A box, 322 00:34:59,430 --> 00:35:06,190 but it says the international community has been busy resourcing mostly Yangon based CSOs the last decade. 323 00:35:06,190 --> 00:35:15,270 Are these professional groups of any value in this situation? And what lessons can be learnt for future support to Myanmar civil society? 324 00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:22,890 Thank you for the question. I would say I wouldn't say that that was a that focus was a complete of like a weasel. 325 00:35:22,890 --> 00:35:23,640 Only then, 326 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:34,200 because the Yangon civil society groups also have a major role that they've been playing and also contributing a lot to the current move as well. 327 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:42,420 But one thing that we have to also keep in mind is that the imbalance I would say, because the the donors where they have all these, 328 00:35:42,420 --> 00:35:48,240 they follow on the restrictions from the Naypyidaw and they imposed those restrictions on 329 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:54,060 the that the civil society and community based organisations and grassroots networks. 330 00:35:54,060 --> 00:36:01,260 So see the problem here. The problem comes if you really look at the ethnic community based groups like such as, 331 00:36:01,260 --> 00:36:08,580 for example, when they called themselves to all in the Burmese system, they are called belong. 332 00:36:08,580 --> 00:36:15,540 So, you know, when the groups are forced to register and then there is a one another. 333 00:36:15,540 --> 00:36:23,490 All of these. No one says the the local community groups have to bear with and, you know, tried to kind of trust. 334 00:36:23,490 --> 00:36:27,810 I got very carefully for they are democratic space. 335 00:36:27,810 --> 00:36:35,370 It's for the ethnic groups in the ethnic areas. A very you know, what they have to do is so different than those who are in the jungle. 336 00:36:35,370 --> 00:36:38,940 But unfortunately, many donors didn't look at that. 337 00:36:38,940 --> 00:36:43,290 They didn't even see that, you know, like groups like us and people like myself. 338 00:36:43,290 --> 00:36:54,330 This is one of the key advocacy and amplifying the voices from the ground that we usually bring all the way to the United Nations level. 339 00:36:54,330 --> 00:37:01,140 These are the groups that they need to support. But when it comes to the point, there are always kind of like imbalance. 340 00:37:01,140 --> 00:37:07,710 I would say. Even now, even now, as we are talking about the looming humanitarian crisis. 341 00:37:07,710 --> 00:37:16,260 Well, I've been telling the international NGOs is is they have to support the local organisations because this is the 342 00:37:16,260 --> 00:37:22,410 only way and these local organisations are what experience have the capacity they've been doing this forever know, 343 00:37:22,410 --> 00:37:27,660 especially those from the ethnic communities who have been dealing with this conflict forever. 344 00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:30,210 They are the ones who know what to do. 345 00:37:30,210 --> 00:37:37,020 But unfortunately, you know, that's another challenge that we have is that the international community's all the donors, 346 00:37:37,020 --> 00:37:40,500 I think they are not as flexible as they should have. 347 00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:48,030 And they're not that they are not as sensitive to the conflict and the complexity of our communities 348 00:37:48,030 --> 00:37:54,300 who have to deal with all of these repressive apparatuses on the ground that they don't understand. 349 00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:57,570 Just to give you one example, if they're for the ethnic communities, 350 00:37:57,570 --> 00:38:05,070 if they want to organise even women's rights workshop in their ethnic areas, the military will come with the guns. 351 00:38:05,070 --> 00:38:12,450 How are you going to actually carry that out, right? Whereas in the jungle, you may not see that difference because there are many different options. 352 00:38:12,450 --> 00:38:16,620 So I think that for now, the international community, 353 00:38:16,620 --> 00:38:22,530 there is also a big lesson for them to learn is that they shall have supported the ethnic communities, 354 00:38:22,530 --> 00:38:30,240 groups, ethnic media groups also, you know, more than they should have they more than they had given the attention in the past. 355 00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:39,880 I think this is the time they have to change that discourse and come back to prioritise the local local resilience and local agency. 356 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:46,090 Thank you very much, and I was going to pass over to other people to answer the same question. 357 00:38:46,090 --> 00:38:50,800 But actually, there's one more. I think we'll probably only have one time for one more question. 358 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:58,330 So I would like to read this out because it's actually very important. And if somebody might like to take this up and Martin, maybe it's you. 359 00:38:58,330 --> 00:39:04,450 It's relating to the way we potentially idealise some of the ethnic armed organisations 360 00:39:04,450 --> 00:39:08,320 and how we have to be very careful about that in this situation as well. 361 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:14,320 So the question is, I was glad to hear Martin's brief mention of natural resources near the end of his talk. 362 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,550 I'm worried that will fall victim to idealism in this situation and forget the revenue 363 00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:24,000 seeking politically political economy is the year as well as the Tatmadaw embedded in. 364 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:31,510 Then surely there is more material matters need to be considered when assessing the likelihood of Vios working in solidarity between themselves, 365 00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:37,560 student groups, etc. to achieve genuine democracy in Myanmar. 366 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:43,770 Yes. Well, I think this is goes to the bottom of everything we're talking about. 367 00:39:43,770 --> 00:39:52,050 I mean, to link this to the previous question, Barrie Boozer and Joe McDonald, they had this political analogy of weak states, strong societies. 368 00:39:52,050 --> 00:39:59,460 I think now is a fantastic example of that. The societies are strong and you get this notion from foreigners, especially in the last decade, 369 00:39:59,460 --> 00:40:03,090 that if they come in and they have good intentions, they can produce good outcomes. 370 00:40:03,090 --> 00:40:09,330 Well, very often they misread the situation and then they set up apparatus, which suits their agendas, 371 00:40:09,330 --> 00:40:13,500 which means often working with foreign consultants and I, IndiGo's and foreign experts. 372 00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:19,020 And then they look at the landscape. They don't take ground-up view, they take a very selective chessboard view. 373 00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:22,590 So, so they supported an NCAA, which only certain group science. 374 00:40:22,590 --> 00:40:28,890 That sign's not realising this can be a source of more conflict. And this is exactly the same with resources. 375 00:40:28,890 --> 00:40:33,660 This is absolutely pivotal this issue. Go to the state and cross the border to Yunnan. 376 00:40:33,660 --> 00:40:38,550 One place is one of the most impoverished places in Asia, and you go to Yunnan, 377 00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:43,740 which is booming on the resources which are come out of Kachin state now, showing you some things very wrong there. 378 00:40:43,740 --> 00:40:49,320 And so the idea that the local communities are under armed groups and therefore should have no voice in it, 379 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,740 or that the central government knows better because we all know it's a wheeling and dealing economy. 380 00:40:53,740 --> 00:40:58,060 As I said in my presentation, it's a way of life. People, people can do things. 381 00:40:58,060 --> 00:41:02,790 It's not a chessboard where you can actually say who the actors are. You can talk about the aspirations. 382 00:41:02,790 --> 00:41:11,100 You can talk about the societies. And this is why the fundamental reforms in the country are so deep and why they have been difficult to resolve. 383 00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:14,490 I think the key issue and this kind of discussion we're having today, 384 00:41:14,490 --> 00:41:19,710 the students now and the young people, Generation Z, many of them are from civil society groups, 385 00:41:19,710 --> 00:41:28,020 many of them the educated people from the last 30 years, a lot of work has gone in and the society and the aspirations are much firmer founded now. 386 00:41:28,020 --> 00:41:33,210 And the worst thing would happen would be the international community coming with a kind of patronising view 387 00:41:33,210 --> 00:41:37,860 and trying to do this pick and mix selection of how they think they can support change in the country. 388 00:41:37,860 --> 00:41:45,580 Much more complex than that. The key thing is to take the lead from the Burmese people. 389 00:41:45,580 --> 00:41:48,790 Thank you. Thank you so much, Martin, for that response. 390 00:41:48,790 --> 00:41:56,470 And what about this issue of idealising, somehow the the military support that we have and armed organisations are giving and you know, 391 00:41:56,470 --> 00:42:04,140 the role that they're playing is that is not something that we need to push on a little bit with the. 392 00:42:04,140 --> 00:42:06,870 Yes. The question of who idealised is it? 393 00:42:06,870 --> 00:42:14,400 I'm not sure that's if you speak to people from the ethnic armed organisations, especially the leaders, many of them are so sad. 394 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,870 And also in the Tatmadaw side that they've spent so many years in conflict killing one another. 395 00:42:18,870 --> 00:42:21,930 They know better than anybody else. This is wrong and it has to stop. 396 00:42:21,930 --> 00:42:29,340 I think I think the idea that this is something that doesn't occur to the people on the ground and I mentioned militias. 397 00:42:29,340 --> 00:42:35,100 Maybe I was a bit simplistic. I should say many of them are self-defence. I think there's one group in the headlines at the moment. 398 00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:39,900 The national organisation who get criticised for being seats seem too close to the military, 399 00:42:39,900 --> 00:42:43,680 but they are a group who feel squeezed between armed groups, include in the army. 400 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:48,600 So they do things in their own interest, and we've just got to get away from these paradigms. 401 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,700 These are issues that shouldn't be fought over. 402 00:42:50,700 --> 00:42:59,010 So I don't I don't think that anybody should idealise these groups, and I honestly think that it's it's a it's a resort. 403 00:42:59,010 --> 00:43:04,860 It's a political tactic. I think the biggest problem if you go back over the 70 years is that the status 404 00:43:04,860 --> 00:43:09,390 quo in Burmese politics has been very unrepresentative since independence. 405 00:43:09,390 --> 00:43:15,600 And it's how do you get that unrepresentative status quo dealt with, whether it be a decentralised system, 406 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:20,130 a union system, a federal system that's for the Burmese people to decide. But that's where the problem lies. 407 00:43:20,130 --> 00:43:26,380 It's not down to just one group or the other. Thank you again, Martin, thank you for that. 408 00:43:26,380 --> 00:43:32,810 Now I kind of hesitate to call on David and Tom because of the I don't want to resurrect some of the technical issues, 409 00:43:32,810 --> 00:43:44,960 but if anybody else would like to make a final comment, then please, please do speak up now. 410 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:50,380 David De. I'm I think not. 411 00:43:50,380 --> 00:44:00,100 OK, well, we'll have to draw things to a close. And it's such a shame that we have such problems at the beginning because I think though 412 00:44:00,100 --> 00:44:04,060 there is such richness and depth in the conversations we could have had around this, 413 00:44:04,060 --> 00:44:11,110 and I hope that it's given at least some food for thought and reflection around issues that are really coming 414 00:44:11,110 --> 00:44:16,540 to the surface when when a lot of discussions are held around what's going on in Myanmar at the moment. 415 00:44:16,540 --> 00:44:24,550 And I think we do need to all learn to push a little bit deeper and ask questions that are perhaps a little bit more uncomfortable as well. 416 00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:30,130 Just to remind you that Tom's documentary will be on Al-Jazeera on July the 14th, 417 00:44:30,130 --> 00:44:35,260 and we'll make sure that we notify everybody when that is to confirm that. 418 00:44:35,260 --> 00:44:40,900 And then David will we'll have a chat and see if there's some way that we can make it what you wanted to say more accessible as well, 419 00:44:40,900 --> 00:44:45,970 because it was it was a shame that with so many issues related to that. 420 00:44:45,970 --> 00:44:50,950 But I just want to thank you. Can I just add something like that last point? 421 00:44:50,950 --> 00:45:03,970 Can I just please do one? Thank you. I forgot to say that this time when the bomb of majority youth from urban cities are really like, you know, 422 00:45:03,970 --> 00:45:14,650 really learning about the suffering of the ethnic communities and also the sharing of their sympathy and empathy, including, you know, like learning. 423 00:45:14,650 --> 00:45:22,060 There's no saying that they are sorry apologising to the Rohingya people when this is happening. 424 00:45:22,060 --> 00:45:26,920 On the other side, I want to say that also for the my ethnic youth, 425 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:34,750 they thought the Tatmadaw only attacks the non Bama ethnic communities they have never seen. 426 00:45:34,750 --> 00:45:42,280 They have never seen. The Tatmadaw actually can be so similar or even more severe know, 427 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:51,220 like violently attacking their own community for the sake of their power, for their power and greed. 428 00:45:51,220 --> 00:45:54,220 That's what they can do. And this is also to me, 429 00:45:54,220 --> 00:46:04,060 that connexion is in that solidarity is so strong for this young generation in particular that I find is a hope for our country. 430 00:46:04,060 --> 00:46:11,210 I just want to thank you. Thank you so much and really important comments to finish with. 431 00:46:11,210 --> 00:46:20,000 So I'd just like to say thank you to all of our panellists and thank you for your patience and forbearance with some of the issues earlier on. 432 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,420 And thank you also to our audience for staying with it. 433 00:46:23,420 --> 00:46:28,340 And I hope that there will be many points that you can reflect on after this as well. 434 00:46:28,340 --> 00:46:34,250 So unfortunately, we haven't got an audience participation element, so we can't clap and you can't hear that. 435 00:46:34,250 --> 00:46:42,020 So just say thank you very much and will notify everybody when, not when the documentary is made and when the podcast is up as well. 436 00:46:42,020 --> 00:46:44,245 Thank you.