Mark, thank you so much for joining us today, and we're really delighted to have you join us.
And you in particular,
I know you came from a meeting with the European Parliament earlier this morning and very tired and have had a great many meetings to deal with.
So thank you and we hope that things will proceed a little bit more smoothly.
Thank you, thank you. And you can you can you hear me now, OK?
Is it OK? OK, OK, I'll try and see how it goes.
Yeah, but thank you. Thank you for having me in this panel.
Yeah, the technical situation was quite unfortunate, but I will try to cover as much as I can.
Still, my name is Kalma and I just to relate to today's topic.
I just want to start sharing with you that I was a student activist back in 1988,
20 years old in the final year of the university, when the the same military,
of course, but under the different leadership when the brutally cracked down on our peaceful demonstrations, I actually also was one of.
Thousands who decided to lead into the ethnic revolutionary, these areas to take up the armed struggle,
to take up the armed struggle to fight this military regime.
Of course, you know, like that time, I had no idea what armed struggle means.
I had no idea what can or anything like that.
And in fact, I've never held any gun in my head, even though my hope, of course,
of leaving home with this feeling of heartbreak and outrage of how our young people,
the young students spoke where to lead this country were killed brutally on the street.
That's also like being chased down to be arrested.
And that is something that the immediate response was we'll take up the armed struggle.
So now I'm like, of course, after many years, I think, like, why did I think that?
Why did I think that I would take up the armed struggle? And it's I think it's very simple for us.
I'm not so sure more will agree. David will agree with me.
I think like throughout our past generations and until now, you know, in the history, it's all about the the Burma Kings defeating the others.
And you know, it's all about the the the independence struggle, you know, from the British occupation,
Japanese occupation and everything you know of their country's history from the start and before is all about the armed struggle.
I think we learnt we learnt all of these in the in the school. I think it's all internalised.
So when we were, we faced this injustice, the violence, I think immediate normal human reaction.
I think that was the the responding to the armed struggle to do the two, to think about it, to take up the arms.
I think that's what happened to me. At least that's what I can.
I can. I can speak for myself.
But of course, like you know, when I got into the ethnic areas, I got into the modern ethnic Revolutionary Army area called the new monastic army.
And then a day in the in the area,
I will have to say that that's where I really came to understand how deep the the that the problems in our country because throughout my life,
you know, I, even though I mix with the different ethnic ethnic groups,
I was a part of the product of the abomination policy of the successive military regimes in the country.
So I I am under the category of Burma, the majority.
Yeah, and I speak only by my language. So with that, you know, when I came into the jungle, I was like a receipt as a Burma majority,
a part of the majority in the eyes of the ethnic communities for them,
anyone who speak Burmese and only Burmese, you know, unless they can prove that they are both parents are from different ethnic,
whether the chin or the Koran, then anyone who speak only Burmese.
And, you know, perhaps they're different from the different ethnic composition will be immediately labelled as Burma majority.
So I remember in my very beginning days all the weeks of learning from the ethnic
Hmong youth who were looking at me with the eyes that they don't like me,
they just don't like me. And I have a basically I have above 50 percent of my blood after a month.
But then when I see that, I see that they just don't like me here.
And I think, you know, I came to really look for the answer.
Try to understand, try to understand their situation, try to understand the circumstances that they are in and they've been through.
And also the suffering and the pain that they have had to endure and are this dominant policy of the military regime who are primarily,
you know, with the Burma centric policies of adoption and implementation.
So I think that's where to me, all of my life as a human rights and democracy activist from Burma.
More than 30 years of my experience, money activism has been directed by the ethnic brothers, ethnic brothers and sisters that I met in the jungle.
And my human rights principles and my ongoing work.
Focussing on the justice and accountability and human rights protection also has been directed from those old days, I would say.
So I really value. I just wanted to share with you that first.
But also like, this is the time I really come to understand.
Like first I can hear in the world of the Berman ization or the bomber is the enemy, you know, beyond which is in Korean is.
Enemy, so I also come to understand how the Tatmadaw has been using this full cuts policy
and targeting the ethnic communities and also through on my activist life,
I've come to be meeting with and meeting with countless survivors of the military's abuses know from different ethnic communities,
you know, like those who had to stay the whole life as internally displaced in the refugee camps.
All those women who actually are survivors of the military rape.
So I think this is something it's important for me to share with you because now, as I've been given the outline of today's discussion,
what I want to share with you today is that how I see the current movement and also
comparing a little bit of the the the the the previous of our generation time,
I heard from Tim, but I think I told my team teams I'm sorry. It's a very,
very large point of him talking about how he's worried about the young people taking the trainings
and going back or planning to go back into the cities and urban without having a proper strategy.
I just want to say that to me, I take it as very natural.
You know, these are the young people. I was one of those back in 1988.
Had no idea. But what I heard, what I see that the young people today have that I think what David was also sharing with us is a clear,
conscious determination and defiance and preserver and and that they are also now are being creative in terms of like carrying on with their people,
carrying on with the peaceful demonstrations. Also using the online social media is also coming up with the creative ideas of using the arts,
using the music poems and in many, many ways to continue to defy this brutal and lawful military attempted military coup.
Four and a half months ago.
So that's why we are seeing the strength of the movement is not only depending on those youth who decided to take a different path.
Going into the jungle, joining the organisations.
Not joining the joining but being there and tried to take the arms training for the purpose of defending the people.
And that also includes defending themselves because we have to remember that they
are the survivors of the current ongoing violence of the the the military junta,
like I am a survivor of the 1988 uprising.
If I got called, if I got shot and killed on the street or if I got caught and end up in prison,
I probably would not have had a chance to be sharing with you on duty.
Of all of the things that I'm sharing, I think like, you know, that day,
the current movement that I see is so different than on time back in 1988 because there are many factors.
But I'm not going to go into detail of every three factors, but I just want to see the strength of the people that I just share with you.
The generations from the previous time, from our generation of nineteen,
eighty eight and Korean on, they all are joining the current young generation.
They call themselves Generation Z. I think it's really important to see that generational, you know,
resistance to this military as much as the ethnic communities like the current in the kitchen.
They are also like resisting this military tyranny of, you know, through different generations.
So now the the majority Burma from urban and central Burma areas are actually now also joining the generations to fight against this hunger.
And then at the same time, what we're seeing is something we never had in the in the nineteen eighty eight, even though we had a little bit,
which is the civil servant and public sector and private sector workers joining now it's
that we hung their joint is more active than the passive in a way know in our time.
They joined us on the streets when we were marching on the streets for a shorter period of time before the,
you know, by the time the military crackdown shooting shootings on the street, those demonstrations stop.
Yeah. But now, after four and a half months, you see that the the teachers and doctors and, you know, different administration start.
They continue to be continuing with this non-cooperation to this military junta.
They're not going back to work, they're not going back to school. That's it.
So I think this is something that that this current military regime, probably this military junta,
probably don't know what to do with that, which I find it as quite inspirational.
But then I just want to say that, you know, I'm sure that you heard from Duterte.
There is a looming humanitarian crisis in the country, not only in the ethnic areas,
because of the the airstrikes by this military junta, but also in the country.
There are also different pockets of the the the looming humanitarian crisis.
Pockets are happening already. But what we are seeing also the so that those that the people's social fabric is coming to be stronger,
they are helping out each other, caring and sharing one another.
And this is all happening to cope with the looming humanitarian crisis.
I think this is something that we need to see how when we are to think about like, you know,
strategize that what can be practical support to the people of Burma in their aspirations and continuing and struggle to get democracy.
I think this is so important that I would like to share with you. But then I just want to come back to this.
The idea that the armed struggle of the young people in particular,
but in the ethnic areas is not only the young people who are taking the armed struggle arms training,
but also they are like civil disobedience movement like doctors and engineers and even the.
As an artist. They are there, and of course, I'm not so sure like what would be their ongoing contribution to the to the current movement.
But I just want to see that like the last ten years,
in spite of the very limited space and freedom that people were able to enjoy or exercise under the military control of the US,
these last nine years have helped them build up the strong relationship.
And that is the very reason. I think one of the reasons that you see why the young people are coming to be more like
showing their sympathy and empathy and understanding of the ethnic people struggle.
One, especially once they get into the ethnic areas. So this is something that I find as a very positive for Burma to move forward.
Of course, how, how, how sustainable this unity.
I'm not I'm not in favour. Much of this word unity because our country always been in like, I've faced this false unity by the military all the time.
So it's more of this solidarity, more of this like like a sharing of each other's, you know,
like coming to be like having this collective vision of the federal democracy that people are now across the country calling for.
I think we have a chance this is in my lifetime. Probably this is the first time.
I mean, this is the first and not even probably this is the first time I've ever seen with them
that the biggest opportunity and the chance for us to move forward as a larger community,
a country. But of course, there are a lot of a lot of challenges that I want to share with you.
That's going to be my last one because I think we want to have more discussion and the
challenges that I want to share with and share with you is the situation on the ground.
You know, in addition to the military's ongoing terror campaign against the people across the country,
the situation on the ground is so fragile and volatile.
So they are not only attacking the ethnic communities and across the country, but also they are blocking the humanitarian aid.
And also at the same time you see this,
there are the civilian wings of the military who have been serving the military to prolong their power throughout the past decades,
and they continue to be serving that interest for the military.
But this time they are taking up the arms, and these are also the former military people.
Know these are like a war veteran people who are taken off the arms who are already
attacking the National League for Democracy and Civil Disobedience Movement members and
many of the people that are now very wary of how this particular group with the arms
from the military side are going to be speeding up with their attacks to the people.
I think we have to also look at that there is a this military always been successful using to divide and rule and divide and rule.
They will do a lot of divide and rules, but also one of the the situation is also the creating the religious tension,
particularly the Muslim minority communities across the country.
Of course, the Rohingya community faced a genocide three years ago.
But also, there are many different other smaller Muslim communities across the country.
They are always used by the successive military regimes whenever there is a people resent.
People are resenting their power and they use this religious card.
And this is something this particular group that I should I tell it.
I just share with you the civilian uniforms, with the car, with the arms and guns.
They are the one who will be creating such kind of chaos. So this is there are a lot of these things that we will have to watch out for.
But my last point in all of that, like I said, this time is the best I have seen out of this whole like a is like a desperate, desperate crisis.
This is the first time I have ever seen that our country have seen the light to move forward as a collective society.
I just want to add Thank you. Omar, thank you so much.
Thank you. Those, your comments are so insightful and they buy so many issues as well.
And it's really interesting where you see this as a as a real sea change as well in terms of the depth of the solidarity,
as you say, rather than the unity. And I hope that we have to come back to that at the end of the session as well to explore it more.
But it's a good moment now to move on to Martin, who can also bring a kind of long term perspective on this and see how your
perspectives join or where the discussion actually evolves in relation to them.
So if we could now move over to Martin and.
If you could take the floor now, Martin, and perhaps give us your insights, so it would be fantastic, thank you.
OK? Can you give me a thumbs up if you can hear me clearly? Great.
I want very much to follow on from Panama, and I'm sorry to say for technical reasons, I didn't hear Tom and David.
So I do hope that I follow on from from what they've said as well.
I want to make a number of points very quickly.
I think these are revolutionary times and as any revolutionary era, it's very difficult to make a linear narrative.
What I think is important, as we've been hearing,
is that this present spring revolution is not the first cycle of political breakdown, nor is it the forced first coup in a country.
One remains one of the most conflict divided since independence in 1988.
And what we're seeing is a clash between the unaddressed legacies of the past and the very progressive
aspirations for the future and which is presently very difficult to know where this is going to prevail.
And there have been too many disappointments in the past for naive optimism.
Now, I think in historical terms, the parallels am very strong, with 48, 62 and 88.
And these came to define the government's errors after independence.
Of course, many people are now saying that there are many parallels to Generation Z and the 88 students,
but I would say the longer this crisis goes on, we're getting more and more similar to the 1962 military coup.
I think we can make arguments about the legitimacy of the 2008 Constitution,
but I think what is the message to the people from the February coup is that the Tatmadaw are once again saying that the only way is our way.
And I think this is also an important message for the international community, especially those development agencies,
which in recent years have had an idea that you can transform progressive dictatorships, as they call it, by incremental reforms.
Well, I think that's no longer the case. As we can see, the country is again one of the most conflicted biases in the country.
So how will it politically unfold? I want to draw attention, attention to the emerging trends, and I want to do this by showing some slides.
I do this not simply for simplicity, but we're talking about matters of life and death.
And I think it's absolutely important that we see the human side to the enormous sufferings under way.
And I think the challenge is to prevent the obstacles, the past becoming problems for the future.
And I just wanted to make two observations, which I think hold the challenges in context, a kind of international context.
I think first, we need to remember many countries suffered from the disruptions of colonial rule.
But I think in Burma, Myanmar, they were especially acute. And I think secondly, as Omar has just been explaining,
although we often talk about three groupings in politics the military, the pro-democracy and the ethnic.
In fact, there's a dysfunction at the heart of the Burmese state, which we have to understand, and that is the competition.
A kind of winner takes all politics amongst the mainstream or Burma majority parties at the centre.
And I would argue that it's there, the problems originate,
and then they permeate out into the ethnic states and regions where they very often get worse.
So I'll turn to these slides. Can you tell me if they're showing?
They're showing Martin. Brilliant. OK.
Well, I think first of all, this is from a documentary I made in 88 89 on the left, and we've got student demonstrators today.
There are the many parallels. The students were the catalyst for change in 88, and there are again today and today we have social media.
But one thing has not changed. It's the indiscriminate, free violence that the security forces are prepared to use in shooting unarmed demonstrators.
This might have shocked international diplomats, but in the ethnic minority areas, it's always been a reality.
And in 2017 and during the crackdown or the army operations against the Rohingya population,
we had a recent reminder which has led to investigations at the International Criminal Court about potential war crimes.
These things have been long well documented, as Callamard said she probably recognised as some people there.
This happened in a very similar way. In 88 89.
The Old Burma Student's Democratic Front is their first Congress on the left, and as you can see,
they brought with the memories of the violence, which had led them to take to the forest to try and begin a generation of new struggle.
But at that time, I think very few of them realised the long struggles and hardships which awaited them.
And of course, as I was saying, they entered a very different world.
This is a world of people about which many people in Burma, in the central of the country knew few of the struggles on the left here.
You can see a Korean Revolution Day and on the right. These are women soldiers of the new Mon State Army.
And the important thing here is to remember it wasn't only about the towns in 88 89.
The new one State Army also party received over a thousand young Hmong students who also joined their cause.
And the same things are happening now in, particularly in the chin, chin and the Karenni areas.
We've got lots of young people coming to take to take up new levels of struggle,
and some come to take up arms and some come to try and achieve new forms of political protest.
And I think this leads to the key issue that we maybe need to focus on.
This is the issue of united fronts. It's a communist term and it's been in Burma's politics since independence of 48kHz.
It's a long running theme between the central military government and the United Fronts.
And just to give you an idea, the parallels are not just simply 88. Nineteen 1990 In this photograph,
you can see the casually to bring saying the cane you need a permit and next to them is actually Aung San Suu Kyi's cousin,
Dr. Sanguin, who was a member of Parliament, and they formed the exile in Cuba, which has so many parallels with the present day Enugu.
So we're not just seeing the uprising, we're seeing the fall out from the protests and on the right you can see the issue then
is how are these groups going to align and work effectively with existing united fronts?
And one of the rights is that is a notice board of probably the most successful ethnic front the federal seeking
national democratic front and the students joined with this group in a new alliance in Cuba and others.
But the important thing here is that the A.F., which was set up in 76, its fight has always been for a democratic union,
and in a way it's important to remember that this has become mainstream today.
So far, so good, but then we cannot ignore the human cost.
What is it going to be after they've seised power in 88?
One of the Tatmadaw leaders, General Suleiman, said them over a million people had died in conflicts since independence.
But we're now 30 years later. So how many more people are going to die?
And on the left is a Cubase clear day, which was burnt out shortly after the students arrived.
And on the right is a cemetery at law in the early nineties and in those graves of students, Karen and other people who joined the armed struggle.
And so we have to really wonder how much longer this kind of conflict will end, which goes around in a circle.
And this, I think, then leads to an next point I wanted to make.
And this is an academic audience primarily today,
and I would really stress that although we've had some academics who've come up with important detail on the Myanmar military in Myanmar politics,
I don't think anybody's got to the heart of the conflicts. And what I find this, what I'm saying is that.
What is the purpose of the Tatmadaw? What are they trying to do after half a century in power?
And this issue was raised to me in 1987 by Kunsthalle, who is one of the great survivors in on politics on the left there.
And he was the head of time head of a group which is today supplied by the R.C.S, which has a cease with the government.
And he surprised me. He said the conflicts in Myanmar are not a real war.
You said real wars have aims and objectives. They have winners and losers and they have time frames.
But in Burma, as it then was, it's a way of life.
And I think 30 years later, his words have a special resonance because on the surface, what he said might seem superficial.
But we have to ask ourselves, is this a failed state?
It has to be one each of us in a peace process with the government, some with ceasefires and some without.
There are about 100 Border Guard forces and up to 100 and militias with up to a thousand or more troops, such as this picture on the right.
This is a militia guy in the northern Shan state, which is a breakaway from a former cease fire, a cease fire group.
And by the Tatmadaw's reckoning, even before the present events that are about 6000 small militia with several dozen members in the country.
And what is happening now rather spontaneously?
It's not only the energy. Although the military government, which are forming new militias, it's actually independent groups such as in Chin State.
What they're doing on and this really is troubling because I think we need to draw two conclusions from this, one of which has been very neglected.
There are two streams to the transition which is needed in the country.
One is political, which is about the NLD and Military Political Transformation Commission constitutional change.
But people ignore the military that's absolutely uppermost most in the minds of the SABC.
And it always has been in the Tatmadaw leaders. And I would say from this, they've become the experts in managing conflicts.
But they don't know how to resolve it. You have to remember that actually on the battlefield, they've not defeated any enemy.
All the groups either collapsed or survived still today.
And if you think that's some sort of exaggeration, I think these two photographs encapsulate what I'm talking about.
What you see today is what's not what might happen tomorrow. On the left is a cease fire.
A ceremony of the chaos in the late 1990s with Tatmadaw leaders and on the right is a much younger Mutasa,
who is now today the KNU chair, and he was one of the strongest fighters well at that time.
The king, who was staying with the NCBI and joining with the Democratic opposition in the kerato, made a cease fire with the government.
Like many of the elders at that time and today the situation is completely reversed.
It's the coup and many of those groups the north east of the country, who have refused ceasefires or not been offered them,
whereas the KNU, the all access and then mostly smaller factions have joined this NCAA process.
It's the only kind of paper credibility the EU has after about 70 years of armed struggle.
So they're trying to hold on to that today. But the question is, what will the fallout be in the coming weeks and months?
And you've got to remember these are not small organisations, and we shouldn't ignore the communities.
The community aspect amongst the left is the United States Party Harmony.
This is a tin factory that they have in the ethnic areas. There's gold trade, rare earths, which become increasing issue of timber.
These are the main natural resources, which is absolutely fuelling the greed and grievance debate.
And on the rights of some Kachin civil society people, they also want to be part of these discussions.
It's already causing problems. Since the coup that you have a situation where the SDC are making announcements and the Uchiha making announcements,
and then the ethnic people on the ground and saying, Hold on, you're talking about us, you know, are you going to be part of these discussions?
So there's big challenges, as Camomile has been saying about how do the opposition groups now line up with these factors?
And so coming to an end, I think that this is the sad reality that we have in the last three months.
So much has changed in the last year. Just a year ago, the American army was the biggest enemy of the Tatmadaw.
And since the November election, they have an informal ceasefire.
At that time, the Korean and National Union had a ceasefire, and now it's under strain.
So here's a photograph in the Korean Hills scene, which is happening in Karimi and Chin and Kachin areas where they're sheltering from bombs.
And here is the picture in Yangon, where you see the young protesters with their aspirations for rejecting the military coup.
They're talking about something very different. And I think then I would just finish with these two photographs on the left is the first battalion
of Aberdare students who were trained in 1999 and on the right you have the young people today.
This is the ethnic alliance in Yangon waving their flags and trying to put forth the
cause for the abolition of the 2008 Constitution and a federal union of Myanmar.
So I would just go back to screen briefly here. Am I back on screen?
Yes, you are, Martin. OK. So I think that would be the final point I wanted to make.
We shouldn't get over sidetracked by the failures of the past,
but they cannot be ignored because this is the it's deeply embedded in the fabric of Myanmar politics.
I think as Kilimall made the points in 1988, the students actually won because they brought down the Burmese way to socialism.
The tragedy was it took another 20 years of impassioned conflict till the military came up with their own idea, which was the 2008 Constitution.
And I think the importance of 2021 is the new movement has already ended.
But side of the debates, the military will try and hang on.
They would try and have elections in two years, which is one of their proxy parties will win.
But the fact is is that the whole world and the Myanmar people have shown that they want meaningful change.
So I think in the age of social media, we are into a very different struggles.
I think the resource issues raise huge questions. The geopolitics are very different as they were in 88.
But I think the key thing and that's the message that the the new and different groups
have to show if they're going to win the public over is that they have the solutions,
the people want peace, they want prosperity and they want an end to these cycles of conflict.
And they will be wanting these approaches in 2021 to start very much sooner rather than later.
So I'll finish there. Thank you, Martin.
Thank you so much, Martin, for that very powerful laying out of just so many issues in such a concise and clear way.
And I think the way you juxtapose those images as well was incredibly helpful just
to show both the similarities and differences between these two important phases.
And I think we are very fortunate we've got about 10 minutes left that we can actually have some questions.
And the one question that we've got in the charts at the moment very much relates to that juxtaposition.
What happened between those two, those two points, which also out referred to as well?
And can I just ask the audience if you could please pop any questions that you do have into
the Q&A box and we might have the time to go through a couple more if you do have any others.
So I'll just read the question, which has been sent in,
says the international community has been busy resourcing mostly Yangon based CSOs the last decade.
Are these professional groups of any value in this situation? What lessons can we learn for future support in Myanmar civil society?
So if Omar Martin in particular, would you like to respond to those to that question?
Omar, would you like to respond? Sure, sure.
So the question is, are those Yangon based CSOs, whether they've been helpful?
Yes, I'll read it again, it's in the Q&A box,
but it says the international community has been busy resourcing mostly Yangon based CSOs the last decade.
Are these professional groups of any value in this situation? And what lessons can be learnt for future support to Myanmar civil society?
Thank you for the question. I would say I wouldn't say that that was a that focus was a complete of like a weasel.
Only then,
because the Yangon civil society groups also have a major role that they've been playing and also contributing a lot to the current move as well.
But one thing that we have to also keep in mind is that the imbalance I would say, because the the donors where they have all these,
they follow on the restrictions from the Naypyidaw and they imposed those restrictions on
the that the civil society and community based organisations and grassroots networks.
So see the problem here. The problem comes if you really look at the ethnic community based groups like such as,
for example, when they called themselves to all in the Burmese system, they are called belong.
So, you know, when the groups are forced to register and then there is a one another.
All of these. No one says the the local community groups have to bear with and, you know, tried to kind of trust.
I got very carefully for they are democratic space.
It's for the ethnic groups in the ethnic areas. A very you know, what they have to do is so different than those who are in the jungle.
But unfortunately, many donors didn't look at that.
They didn't even see that, you know, like groups like us and people like myself.
This is one of the key advocacy and amplifying the voices from the ground that we usually bring all the way to the United Nations level.
These are the groups that they need to support. But when it comes to the point, there are always kind of like imbalance.
I would say. Even now, even now, as we are talking about the looming humanitarian crisis.
Well, I've been telling the international NGOs is is they have to support the local organisations because this is the
only way and these local organisations are what experience have the capacity they've been doing this forever know,
especially those from the ethnic communities who have been dealing with this conflict forever.
They are the ones who know what to do.
But unfortunately, you know, that's another challenge that we have is that the international community's all the donors,
I think they are not as flexible as they should have.
And they're not that they are not as sensitive to the conflict and the complexity of our communities
who have to deal with all of these repressive apparatuses on the ground that they don't understand.
Just to give you one example, if they're for the ethnic communities,
if they want to organise even women's rights workshop in their ethnic areas, the military will come with the guns.
How are you going to actually carry that out, right? Whereas in the jungle, you may not see that difference because there are many different options.
So I think that for now, the international community,
there is also a big lesson for them to learn is that they shall have supported the ethnic communities,
groups, ethnic media groups also, you know, more than they should have they more than they had given the attention in the past.
I think this is the time they have to change that discourse and come back to prioritise the local local resilience and local agency.
Thank you very much, and I was going to pass over to other people to answer the same question.
But actually, there's one more. I think we'll probably only have one time for one more question.
So I would like to read this out because it's actually very important. And if somebody might like to take this up and Martin, maybe it's you.
It's relating to the way we potentially idealise some of the ethnic armed organisations
and how we have to be very careful about that in this situation as well.
So the question is, I was glad to hear Martin's brief mention of natural resources near the end of his talk.
I'm worried that will fall victim to idealism in this situation and forget the revenue
seeking politically political economy is the year as well as the Tatmadaw embedded in.
Then surely there is more material matters need to be considered when assessing the likelihood of Vios working in solidarity between themselves,
student groups, etc. to achieve genuine democracy in Myanmar.
Yes. Well, I think this is goes to the bottom of everything we're talking about.
I mean, to link this to the previous question, Barrie Boozer and Joe McDonald, they had this political analogy of weak states, strong societies.
I think now is a fantastic example of that. The societies are strong and you get this notion from foreigners, especially in the last decade,
that if they come in and they have good intentions, they can produce good outcomes.
Well, very often they misread the situation and then they set up apparatus, which suits their agendas,
which means often working with foreign consultants and I, IndiGo's and foreign experts.
And then they look at the landscape. They don't take ground-up view, they take a very selective chessboard view.
So, so they supported an NCAA, which only certain group science.
That sign's not realising this can be a source of more conflict. And this is exactly the same with resources.
This is absolutely pivotal this issue. Go to the state and cross the border to Yunnan.
One place is one of the most impoverished places in Asia, and you go to Yunnan,
which is booming on the resources which are come out of Kachin state now, showing you some things very wrong there.
And so the idea that the local communities are under armed groups and therefore should have no voice in it,
or that the central government knows better because we all know it's a wheeling and dealing economy.
As I said in my presentation, it's a way of life. People, people can do things.
It's not a chessboard where you can actually say who the actors are. You can talk about the aspirations.
You can talk about the societies. And this is why the fundamental reforms in the country are so deep and why they have been difficult to resolve.
I think the key issue and this kind of discussion we're having today,
the students now and the young people, Generation Z, many of them are from civil society groups,
many of them the educated people from the last 30 years, a lot of work has gone in and the society and the aspirations are much firmer founded now.
And the worst thing would happen would be the international community coming with a kind of patronising view
and trying to do this pick and mix selection of how they think they can support change in the country.
Much more complex than that. The key thing is to take the lead from the Burmese people.
Thank you. Thank you so much, Martin, for that response.
And what about this issue of idealising, somehow the the military support that we have and armed organisations are giving and you know,
the role that they're playing is that is not something that we need to push on a little bit with the.
Yes. The question of who idealised is it?
I'm not sure that's if you speak to people from the ethnic armed organisations, especially the leaders, many of them are so sad.
And also in the Tatmadaw side that they've spent so many years in conflict killing one another.
They know better than anybody else. This is wrong and it has to stop.
I think I think the idea that this is something that doesn't occur to the people on the ground and I mentioned militias.
Maybe I was a bit simplistic. I should say many of them are self-defence. I think there's one group in the headlines at the moment.
The national organisation who get criticised for being seats seem too close to the military,
but they are a group who feel squeezed between armed groups, include in the army.
So they do things in their own interest, and we've just got to get away from these paradigms.
These are issues that shouldn't be fought over.
So I don't I don't think that anybody should idealise these groups, and I honestly think that it's it's a it's a resort.
It's a political tactic. I think the biggest problem if you go back over the 70 years is that the status
quo in Burmese politics has been very unrepresentative since independence.
And it's how do you get that unrepresentative status quo dealt with, whether it be a decentralised system,
a union system, a federal system that's for the Burmese people to decide. But that's where the problem lies.
It's not down to just one group or the other. Thank you again, Martin, thank you for that.
Now I kind of hesitate to call on David and Tom because of the I don't want to resurrect some of the technical issues,
but if anybody else would like to make a final comment, then please, please do speak up now.
David De. I'm I think not.
OK, well, we'll have to draw things to a close. And it's such a shame that we have such problems at the beginning because I think though
there is such richness and depth in the conversations we could have had around this,
and I hope that it's given at least some food for thought and reflection around issues that are really coming
to the surface when when a lot of discussions are held around what's going on in Myanmar at the moment.
And I think we do need to all learn to push a little bit deeper and ask questions that are perhaps a little bit more uncomfortable as well.
Just to remind you that Tom's documentary will be on Al-Jazeera on July the 14th,
and we'll make sure that we notify everybody when that is to confirm that.
And then David will we'll have a chat and see if there's some way that we can make it what you wanted to say more accessible as well,
because it was it was a shame that with so many issues related to that.
But I just want to thank you. Can I just add something like that last point?
Can I just please do one? Thank you. I forgot to say that this time when the bomb of majority youth from urban cities are really like, you know,
really learning about the suffering of the ethnic communities and also the sharing of their sympathy and empathy, including, you know, like learning.
There's no saying that they are sorry apologising to the Rohingya people when this is happening.
On the other side, I want to say that also for the my ethnic youth,
they thought the Tatmadaw only attacks the non Bama ethnic communities they have never seen.
They have never seen. The Tatmadaw actually can be so similar or even more severe know,
like violently attacking their own community for the sake of their power, for their power and greed.
That's what they can do. And this is also to me,
that connexion is in that solidarity is so strong for this young generation in particular that I find is a hope for our country.
I just want to thank you. Thank you so much and really important comments to finish with.
So I'd just like to say thank you to all of our panellists and thank you for your patience and forbearance with some of the issues earlier on.
And thank you also to our audience for staying with it.
And I hope that there will be many points that you can reflect on after this as well.
So unfortunately, we haven't got an audience participation element, so we can't clap and you can't hear that.
So just say thank you very much and will notify everybody when, not when the documentary is made and when the podcast is up as well.
Thank you.