1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:12,010 It's a great pleasure to be here because some of the best work on Islamism has been done by Oxford faculty, by some 32 Zaman methodologies here. 2 00:00:12,330 --> 00:00:19,740 And it's not the best Turkish studies scholarship. It's also here I went to promote Andrew Hammond's book is coming out on Ottoman Palestine. 3 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:27,060 Gallipoli is going to write about visionary Turkish diplomats and historians. 4 00:00:27,870 --> 00:00:33,089 So it would be good for me to take this opportunity to present some of the new research 5 00:00:33,090 --> 00:00:38,190 on the Lisbon Treaty and the role of the Indian Muslims and Indians in general, 6 00:00:38,550 --> 00:00:44,850 and how we can make sense of this experience with many contradictory interpretations. 7 00:00:44,850 --> 00:00:53,280 So let me tell what the contradictory interpretations are on the path to Turkey's diplomatic victory, 8 00:00:53,340 --> 00:01:02,070 according to Turkish side, as well as from the British side at Lausanne Treaty of 1923, which devised a defeated empires, 9 00:01:03,690 --> 00:01:08,670 remnants of a defeated empires division with the current sovereign Turkish nation states, 10 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:17,319 Indian Muslims played an extremely important role, in fact, that the success would not have been possible without India. 11 00:01:17,320 --> 00:01:23,010 It was the financial, moral and diplomatic pressure and mobilisation. 12 00:01:24,510 --> 00:01:29,130 In addition to the Muslims, there was also great support by the Bolshevik Revolution, 13 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:37,920 and thus this support is subject to many conflicting, also confusing interpretations. 14 00:01:39,180 --> 00:01:49,860 One of the reasons why why this continued confusing and conflicting interpretations happened is that in contrast to the common perceptions of 1918, 15 00:01:49,860 --> 00:01:55,530 1919, the end of World War One, as the end of Empire and the rise of the Estonian nationalism, 16 00:01:56,250 --> 00:02:04,710 one of the most important aspects of this period is, is that the boom of nationalist activities across the world. 17 00:02:05,310 --> 00:02:10,590 So in 1919, in some ways is not a Wilsonian moment of self-determination. 18 00:02:10,890 --> 00:02:20,070 It's a pan-Islamic, Pan-African and Punisher moment in from 1982 onwards until all the way to 1922, 19 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:26,970 pan-Islamic across the world, not only in India, organised in different forums. 20 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:37,890 Indian Muslims rebelled against or revolted or objected against the punishment of the defeated Ottoman Empire by the Allied powers. 21 00:02:38,310 --> 00:02:42,570 And they thought that this extreme punishment of them I post, 22 00:02:42,570 --> 00:02:50,280 if you might Ottoman Empire to occupy Istanbul and then finally to occupy Anatolia with the Greek army, 23 00:02:50,280 --> 00:03:02,310 which acted as a proxy for the British, is an Islamophobic act of punishing a muslim state by Christian powers. 24 00:03:02,790 --> 00:03:10,149 And they met Woodrow Wilson Lloyd George Pope, grandson of Karl Marx. 25 00:03:10,150 --> 00:03:17,580 There's a lot of diplomatic activity to try to persuade that they should not treat Turkey unfairly in this moment. 26 00:03:17,580 --> 00:03:27,030 There was also a great support to Indian Muslims by Hindus, including Gandhi, by a large part, by all kind of people who are considered today. 27 00:03:27,630 --> 00:03:32,250 Founding fathers of Hindutva were also involved in the support of the Muslims, 28 00:03:32,670 --> 00:03:39,510 and they made this extraordinary argument that we see in the meeting of the Indian and African 29 00:03:39,510 --> 00:03:49,140 division with Woodrow Wilson by Aga Khan after Syed Ahmed and Abdullah was somebody in the May 1919. 30 00:03:49,410 --> 00:03:58,530 The argument follows this is that in 1914, when document empire declared war against and holy war against Britain, we didn't join that. 31 00:03:58,980 --> 00:04:05,790 We joined the British fight. We died. We sacrifice our lives for the King and the British Empire. 32 00:04:05,790 --> 00:04:06,959 But we have conditions. 33 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:16,320 We say that the war is against Germany and the young Turks, and it should not affect the Muslim holy cities as well as the caliphate itself. 34 00:04:16,950 --> 00:04:21,450 And they said, because we were so loyal to the British Empire as the greatest Mohammedan empire, 35 00:04:21,450 --> 00:04:28,200 and the sacrifice now we want as Muslims was the community that you kerb your anti-Muslim 36 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:33,180 prejudice in your treatment of the Ottomans and give them what they deserve. 37 00:04:33,210 --> 00:04:42,450 That is a Wilsonian deal that the Muslim Turkish majority lands of Anatolia will become post Ottoman Turkey. 38 00:04:42,870 --> 00:04:50,879 But they also had a very clear message that the arrogance of Iraq, Syria, Palestine will also be free from colonialism. 39 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:57,540 That's a very interesting vision of the Indian Muslims that we usually forget, which I will talk in more detail. 40 00:05:01,260 --> 00:05:06,800 This Indian Muslim pan-Islamic mobilisation, coupled with also Bolshevik support, 41 00:05:06,810 --> 00:05:11,310 and it was also coincided with young Turk pan-Islamic internationalism. 42 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:16,620 From 1990 to 1923, which triggers other passions in my shop. 43 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:23,280 Moving across Eurasia with Bolshevik support and making an alliance between 44 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:28,380 Islamic internationalism and Bolshevik internationalism played a crucial role. 45 00:05:29,070 --> 00:05:35,790 It wasn't 100% the reason why Turkish nationals won, but it was without that kind of support. 46 00:05:36,510 --> 00:05:46,260 You wouldn't think that the ultimate success of the Turkish nationalist government to defeat the Greek army and then get to the table, 47 00:05:46,260 --> 00:05:51,780 make peace also with Russia and France, French empire, get to the table. 48 00:05:51,780 --> 00:05:59,070 It goes on and get not everything but a lot of the teeth out of the of the allied powers in the British. 49 00:06:00,030 --> 00:06:09,450 Before Lausanne there was something called the 73rd treaty was supposed to make the colonisation of the Arab lands also extend to Turkey, 50 00:06:09,450 --> 00:06:16,380 but give an Armenian homeland, a Kurdish state, an expanded Greek empire. 51 00:06:16,950 --> 00:06:21,300 Then Prince Philip's uncle was supposed to be the kingdom head in those areas. 52 00:06:21,900 --> 00:06:27,450 There were so many other punitive measures included in the Senate treaty, which was then never ratified. 53 00:06:27,450 --> 00:06:31,530 They were considered in Lausanne. They were thrown into the trash. 54 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:42,390 So in 1923, Lausanne treaty came and celebrated as the triumph of this pan-Islamic internationalism, where Indian Muslims played a great role. 55 00:06:43,530 --> 00:06:49,620 Yet just soon after that glorious victory over victory of pan Islamism. 56 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:58,360 I was in a very anticlimactic moment where this whole pan-Islamic mobilisation was couched in 57 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:05,920 the terms of of saving the caliphate or keeping the institution of the caliphate in Istanbul. 58 00:07:06,220 --> 00:07:11,080 And kind of government decided to abolish the caliphate on March 1924. 59 00:07:11,860 --> 00:07:19,780 And an Indian Muslim leaders and others like it would kind of continued their demands because their demands were beyond what Turkey wanted. 60 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:26,610 In fact, they also found something unsatisfactory with the loss of treaty with regard to the colonisation of the House. 61 00:07:26,980 --> 00:07:32,530 The new way that the Turkish compromise with the British. But then there was some insisted that that compromise wasn't enough. 62 00:07:33,010 --> 00:07:37,360 It could have included full independence of Syria, Iraq and Palestine. 63 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:50,890 So we have this extraordinary transformation from 1918 to 1924, when we did this diplomatic moral power of pan-Islamic movement, 64 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,150 which then transitions into this post caliphate moment of nationalism, 65 00:07:55,540 --> 00:08:01,540 and then gradually this experience of being interpreted with a very different narrative, 66 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:08,200 a narrative of nationalism, a narrative of Turkey's right to self-determination. 67 00:08:08,510 --> 00:08:12,910 And the narrative that the Turkey gained is right to belong to Europe. 68 00:08:13,030 --> 00:08:20,740 And losing was a confirmation of this and gradual distancing between Turkish nationalism and pan-Islamic movement based in India. 69 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:30,760 Does this episode is remembered with highly inaccurate myths and exaggerated feelings? 70 00:08:31,060 --> 00:08:37,900 And I know when I was looking for research for this, I found out that there were so many historical erasures. 71 00:08:38,230 --> 00:08:41,410 So the unexpected interpretation of one of them, I should note, 72 00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:49,240 is that Hindu fundamentalists loved Mustafa Kemal Ataturk because they think 73 00:08:49,540 --> 00:08:54,610 that the abolishment of the caliphate showed Indian Muslims how cool they were, 74 00:08:55,180 --> 00:09:01,690 religious, they were unnecessarily. And then Mustafa Kemal taught them a lesson by listening to cultivate and declaring declared the second. 75 00:09:01,810 --> 00:09:06,160 Of course, this is a very distorted, inaccurate, nonsense argument. 76 00:09:07,150 --> 00:09:13,750 But some one of my student was writing a paper on this topic about Indian Hindus and in Lausanne, 77 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:21,850 and that actually became one of the start conclusions that the currently loosened is phrased by a Hindu nationalist, 78 00:09:22,690 --> 00:09:31,990 as is almost like a soap bubble that showed that the Indian loyalty to another Taliban or more monarch was unnecessary. 79 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:41,739 But in reality, we do know that Hindu nationalists, including Mahatma Gandhi, were as active in the pan-Islamic movement of Islamic movement, 80 00:09:41,740 --> 00:09:47,900 and they were very supportive of the Turkish nationalist cause and never forgot. 81 00:09:47,980 --> 00:09:52,090 An aspect of it is that the Turkish current Turkish conservatives, 82 00:09:52,420 --> 00:09:59,170 they are not strictly very proud of the Indian mobilisation and support for the caliphate, 83 00:10:00,220 --> 00:10:03,730 but that they don't want to think what happened to Indian Muslims afterwards. 84 00:10:04,330 --> 00:10:08,620 So they think that that was still working well, made a mistake by abolishing the Taliban. 85 00:10:09,550 --> 00:10:14,230 And so they have a negative take on Muslim with a lot of conspiracy theories, 86 00:10:14,230 --> 00:10:21,700 one of which is that on the 100 year anniversary of those ideas, a secular closing to abolish it, and they can be counted backwards. 87 00:10:21,700 --> 00:10:27,670 But it's a no no basis in terms of any historical fact. 88 00:10:28,690 --> 00:10:33,280 But there is a dark side of the Muslim treaty and it is multiple dark cycle, 89 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:39,970 because one of them is that it relied on a bargain between Turkish nationalists and the British, 90 00:10:40,570 --> 00:10:47,500 that Europeans are going to stop any demands on behalf of the Armenians who were expelled from their homes. 91 00:10:47,500 --> 00:10:55,330 In an apology, there was a project of them being able to go back to Anatolia, at least in some sort of an Armenian homeland. 92 00:10:55,660 --> 00:11:02,740 But in return and this it of course not never expressed implicit the explicit that that it was implicit in the bargain. 93 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:12,580 In return, Turkey is not going to continue its claim over Arab provinces giving out Iraq and Palestine. 94 00:11:12,850 --> 00:11:22,929 And this is is a topic that is that a Thomson will write about and shoot some very good research on this the forgotten aspects 95 00:11:22,930 --> 00:11:32,020 of the Turks betraying Arabs in Lausanne because usually the argument was opposed by the Turkish nationalism in World War II. 96 00:11:32,020 --> 00:11:37,270 The Arabs betrayed the Turks to the outer world, while Indians were very loyal to the Turks. 97 00:11:37,270 --> 00:11:40,719 Actually, during that time, Indian soldiers were fighting on the British army. 98 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:46,660 That's also not accurate, but it not become very clear that the Arab publics, 99 00:11:46,660 --> 00:11:50,850 Arab leaders, wanted Turkish nationalists to speak on their behalf to do. 100 00:11:51,550 --> 00:12:00,490 A Balfour Declaration because technically unless because Arabs were free citizens of document empire so I'm kind of government could still 101 00:12:00,490 --> 00:12:08,680 present them in some ways and without Turkey giving up on all in this way sovereign rights over former Ottoman provinces in Arab lands. 102 00:12:09,130 --> 00:12:14,470 The mandate system could have taken them over just like a deed off of a property that they have to transfer them. 103 00:12:14,740 --> 00:12:22,090 And given the limitations of the power of the Turkish nationals or be for other reasons, they actually did not pursue that path, 104 00:12:22,270 --> 00:12:28,570 even though they kept this idea of an Arab Turkish federation and a caliphate until the very last moment. 105 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:37,450 In fact, one could say that Turkish delegation leaders who went to Lausanne with some sort of a caliphate in Palestine, 106 00:12:37,450 --> 00:12:42,330 as well as one puppet and Bolshevik support of his other pocket within the left, 107 00:12:42,340 --> 00:12:47,379 he showed these on his trash can and then left with some sort of a new understanding and 108 00:12:47,380 --> 00:12:53,230 a bargain with the British and American new narrative of Turkey as a civilised race. 109 00:12:54,440 --> 00:13:04,819 So what I was trying to do today is to resolve some of this contradiction and talk about new research and and offer another 110 00:13:04,820 --> 00:13:13,820 way of meeting this extraordinary couple of years in terms of pan-Islamic mobilisation on behalf of the Turkish nationalists. 111 00:13:14,450 --> 00:13:24,590 These readings will rely on one argument that I would like to have is that we have to look at Islamism not as a wasted utopia, 112 00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:32,960 not as a failed project of seed, as part of the global history of rights. 113 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:38,040 And this is one of the weakest spot of the history of rice literature. 114 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,770 There's a lot of literature on his right to self-determination, a history of human rights, 115 00:13:43,070 --> 00:13:47,540 and that is that literature is still consistently very Eurocentric. 116 00:13:47,870 --> 00:13:59,719 So only time they refer to non-European societies, it still refers to them as as non Europeans adopting European ideals and actualise. 117 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:06,049 And so Gandhi becomes a figure or object or someone taking ideas from French Revolution and Europe. 118 00:14:06,050 --> 00:14:11,959 And Toynbee clearly say that the Asians are learning from Europe how to fight against their learning, 119 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:17,300 the concept of rest from Europeans and talking back against the Europeans, but is a very minimal role. 120 00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:21,770 You basically act like you come over character ideas that are only emerged in Europe, 121 00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:28,400 which would punish nationalism as much to replace them as there are. 122 00:14:28,610 --> 00:14:37,399 A couple of things that needs to be highlighted. Maybe I start with that and I will go into the second part of of narrative refashioning after those 123 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:45,530 are what I argue in terms of the significance of Islamism where the history of race is that. 124 00:14:47,820 --> 00:14:50,540 Concept of rights, world globalised. 125 00:14:50,550 --> 00:15:02,100 And there were unique aspects of the question of rights in Asia and Africa beyond a Eurocentric notion from 1870s to 1930s. 126 00:15:03,180 --> 00:15:11,339 And we cannot understand decolonisation as well as the 1960s famous moment of the United 127 00:15:11,340 --> 00:15:18,480 Nations approving the end of empire in Asia and Africa without this time nationalist argument, 128 00:15:18,690 --> 00:15:25,860 which will also leave us an important legacy of India's official notions of civilisation as a result of struggle for rights. 129 00:15:26,970 --> 00:15:37,709 So the idea of Islam being a very important and sending an important is part of this global demands by Pan-African clinicians around Islam is to 130 00:15:37,710 --> 00:15:47,580 decolonise the world and asked rights within empires as well as beyond empires in a pan-Islamic more open till appears ethical mode of argumentation. 131 00:15:47,580 --> 00:15:54,090 I will get to that. But what that means, in fact, let me finish that part of rights in the next five, 132 00:15:54,090 --> 00:15:59,190 10 minutes and then go back to the fact of refashioning narratives as part of the Lisbon Treaty. 133 00:15:59,190 --> 00:15:59,910 Significance. 134 00:16:01,740 --> 00:16:11,790 In fact, European future European elites noted how much of a of the dynamism activism was happening after World War One on behalf of Asia and Africa. 135 00:16:11,790 --> 00:16:15,060 And there was a Pan-African conference by Dubois in Paris. 136 00:16:15,570 --> 00:16:22,049 pan-Asian has had the race equality proposal where it mobilised all of China and Japan around it. 137 00:16:22,050 --> 00:16:30,870 And pages and pages like this were not not only young Turks were everywhere, but also Islamic movement. 138 00:16:31,740 --> 00:16:42,120 And there was a man named Norman Engle who received Nobel Prise for peace and he just interview was noted by Paris. 139 00:16:42,130 --> 00:16:46,830 There were some petitioners who said, Well, maybe we made too much mistake. 140 00:16:46,830 --> 00:16:53,880 We promised these Asians that Africans during World War One and now we can keep up this promise of democracy, freedom, equality. 141 00:16:54,660 --> 00:17:01,110 And so he said Europe must be united at the League of Nations, otherwise we will lose against the Asian Africa. 142 00:17:01,110 --> 00:17:03,900 So you say something very nice that Asians and Africans won twice, 143 00:17:04,110 --> 00:17:10,140 but he still ties it to their exaggerated promises during World War One, which he thinks was a mistake. 144 00:17:10,770 --> 00:17:16,229 And then the League of Nations project emerges as the kind of a conservative response to 145 00:17:16,230 --> 00:17:21,720 solidifying European empires against these new demands that came out after World War One. 146 00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:34,080 In reality, however, Marshall's language of rights emerges simultaneously across Asia and Africa in the 1870s and eighties and the first stage. 147 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:42,810 They rely on this very naive language of civilizational uplift and improvement and very apologetic. 148 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:52,469 And the first generation from Afghani generation to Tagore, even after the pan nationalist argument for rights goes like this, 149 00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:58,700 is that we are part of empires and we are part of the world order, but our rights are denied. 150 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:00,749 We don't have equal rights. 151 00:18:00,750 --> 00:18:07,680 And the reason why we have we are denied with these rights is that we are considered inferior as blacks, Asians and Africans. 152 00:18:08,580 --> 00:18:14,399 Thus, we have to assert our equality by proving that we are work here, 153 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:22,170 that this sort of civilizational work to this of equal citizenship sort 1870s to 1900 154 00:18:22,170 --> 00:18:27,930 generation of Muslim Asian African intellectuals always talk about how they are, 155 00:18:27,930 --> 00:18:31,260 if they are fully civilised, that they deserve to be treated equal. 156 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:38,490 That seems to achieve something, but they have some limits. 157 00:18:38,490 --> 00:18:45,660 And in some ways this is what we professors from Colonial worked in teaching in America and Europe. 158 00:18:45,660 --> 00:18:54,150 We are still doing that right. We are always an attempt to teach the European and American public what they think about Muslims, Asians and Africans. 159 00:18:54,420 --> 00:18:58,260 Correct. And their prejudice and their Islamophobia. 160 00:18:58,950 --> 00:19:02,429 We have been doing it for the last 150 years and we still have racism. 161 00:19:02,430 --> 00:19:06,600 So we need to think about how successful that project is. 162 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:15,510 Maybe you can think of some sort of a vaccine shot that doesn't kill the pandemic, but it the pandemic of racism into an endemic of racism. 163 00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:28,739 But in fact, there is there's a beautiful line by Mohamed Barker, who wrote in the magazine Islamic Fraternity in Tokyo in 1911 and says, 164 00:19:28,740 --> 00:19:34,469 You know, when I'm talking about Dutch violence in Indonesia, I just mean that I hate the Dutch. 165 00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:39,959 I like them. It doesn't mean that I want them to to have all of this stigma. 166 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:46,830 I just want them to be aware of what horrible crimes are committed on their behalf and if they feel some shame and. 167 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:54,230 The best way then to pressure their own empire and to change the policies due to their invasion Muslim subjects. 168 00:19:54,500 --> 00:20:02,150 And I think that's the common mode of every intellectual, everywhere in Asia, in Africa, to talk back, to defend rights. 169 00:20:03,850 --> 00:20:10,360 Around 19 or 1900 nationwide, people realised that you can gain your rights by just ignoring you. 170 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,169 People are not shameless. I mean, it's also power relations. 171 00:20:14,170 --> 00:20:24,180 I mean, how much you can talk to persuade someone in London, Paris or Amsterdam to be nicer to you, to give you equality? 172 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,740 The second stage is quite interesting. They say, okay, dinner. 173 00:20:28,030 --> 00:20:31,299 If it doesn't work, we need power. That's like Japan is very important. 174 00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:37,960 And Turkey, Brussels, Germany, they say we create solidarity amongst ourself for power. 175 00:20:38,350 --> 00:20:42,160 Well, solidarity is also not enough, just geopolitical solidarity, 176 00:20:42,430 --> 00:20:48,940 solidarity of the poor and which is great morally, but you need someone with batons, with armies. 177 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,750 So solidarity also involves someone with power. 178 00:20:52,750 --> 00:20:58,840 DJOKOVIC You need to then fight back to to create to create some imbalance. 179 00:20:59,110 --> 00:21:02,860 And this starts with Japan, Turkey, Moldova, excellent. 180 00:21:02,860 --> 00:21:06,490 All the way to possible to Germany, Russia. 181 00:21:06,790 --> 00:21:10,270 And there's a sort of logical, logical solidarity in geopolitics. 182 00:21:13,970 --> 00:21:19,250 I think in that moment we have to understand why all the punishment for punishment is unusual. 183 00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:24,739 They were so excited about Japan's victory because their main goal is to if only we 184 00:21:24,740 --> 00:21:30,740 could take Japan out of an alliance with Britain to being the big brother of Asia, 185 00:21:30,740 --> 00:21:34,190 that we could defeat colonialism, that kind of language of rights that are embedded. 186 00:21:34,190 --> 00:21:37,220 And they are so excited about Turkey's plans, the reforms. 187 00:21:37,580 --> 00:21:42,720 So the pendulum obsession with Turkey and Japan has two purposes. 188 00:21:42,740 --> 00:21:48,140 On one hand, these two countries prove that Muslims than Asians on an interior, they're very civilised, 189 00:21:48,350 --> 00:21:51,979 but they might also they also prove that they are part of their big they have 190 00:21:51,980 --> 00:21:56,840 that they can play the geopolitical global power politics and you may need to. 191 00:22:00,260 --> 00:22:06,090 There's an amazing line. I think there are certain versions of this thing will be published and I can tell you the published references. 192 00:22:06,570 --> 00:22:13,920 There's a great line by saying I said in a speech on great Asian ism in 1924, he clearly goes to the stage and says, 193 00:22:14,130 --> 00:22:23,820 We Asians are always asking for our rights and equality, but we wouldn't get here if it wasn't for Japan and Turkey. 194 00:22:24,420 --> 00:22:28,710 And he does mention was the pan-Islamic mobilisation during 1924 after those lines, 195 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,710 is that Japan was the first to gain legal equality in international law. 196 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,290 But Russell, jump in is what it shows that we're not stupid, we can organise militarily. 197 00:22:37,740 --> 00:22:43,020 And is this turkey to Turkey that the first thing that you don't give up, even if you are defeated, you fight back. 198 00:22:43,020 --> 00:22:48,120 So there's a narrative that the turkey is not an Ottoman Empire, it is a victimised nation, 199 00:22:48,270 --> 00:22:52,860 which is the narrative refashioning that the Bolsheviks stopped in some ways in 1990. 200 00:22:53,850 --> 00:23:00,470 And then is that the effect that the Chinese nationalism now highly inspired because of these two model, the two sides of it? 201 00:23:00,750 --> 00:23:07,920 So there is this pragmatic aspect headed toward a final one of open nationalism. 202 00:23:09,630 --> 00:23:17,880 Is that it? It goes into the controversial part that at some point pan nationalist notions 203 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:25,920 of rights moved beyond the logic of showing your civilizational work in. 204 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:32,790 As for equality that that there's a Eurocentric criteria you have to provide proof that you are worthy of equal rights. 205 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:40,830 To to an argument that that philosophical notion is that in order to be equal, modern, progressive humanist, 206 00:23:41,370 --> 00:23:50,210 you have to go beyond Europe and revive your own historical traditions and past the gestures of legal abortion that we were talking a lot about. 207 00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:58,140 This today can best be seen in Ahmadi Ahmadi arguments that emulation of the West is not enough. 208 00:23:58,350 --> 00:24:03,270 It's not necessary either, that you need to revive Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, 209 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:13,470 because the true humanism will come again in passion of of balancing between the best of the East and the West is a great degree thing. 210 00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:20,210 There is a very good line that I hope I think I told this to call it, but I'm going to test you on one thing. 211 00:24:20,220 --> 00:24:25,170 I need to find my method of energy over time. 212 00:24:26,340 --> 00:24:32,850 We find in my talk because I'm so I'm going to read the lines is this is a speech that 213 00:24:32,850 --> 00:24:39,020 in 1920 in Bombay to long have the scientists looked to Europe as a part of wisdom. 214 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:47,280 There's evil as well as good in the European education and ideas of life, as scientists have become inferior to Europeans. 215 00:24:47,290 --> 00:24:57,510 Why? Because they have object to imitate them, renouncing criticism because they had not pride as a scientist on their own ground of Asia. 216 00:24:57,540 --> 00:24:59,940 They are not inferior, but they are different. 217 00:25:00,090 --> 00:25:10,919 Everything that is based on the world, religion, romance, jewellery comes from Asia Indians you proud that you are a sceptics seem to worship blindly. 218 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,840 Everything good or bad could comes from Europe, except from Europe only what is good? 219 00:25:16,020 --> 00:25:21,900 Take up your burden of responsibility and full grown men forming a full grown nation. 220 00:25:22,380 --> 00:25:26,880 Do for yourself what the British in 150 years of failed to do for you. 221 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:33,300 And this speech is also given on in support of Turkish national of course in hospitable. 222 00:25:33,810 --> 00:25:38,760 And so when I asked my students actually they didn't think that this was done by a muslim. 223 00:25:38,770 --> 00:25:43,709 They thought this must be a Hindu or a Buddhist because it as the book about but this is a white 224 00:25:43,710 --> 00:25:50,130 British convert why would you picked on who was them in in Bombay in any work in Hyderabad. 225 00:25:50,880 --> 00:26:01,320 But but I think this askap it just uses optical turn and when the global transnationals taught us to be studied by the future Oxford students, 226 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,470 and then if I can expect new research to be done on this topic, 227 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,370 because it's also very important for our notions of an idea of what religion, 228 00:26:08,610 --> 00:26:15,030 idea of race idea, feminism that is all linked to this moment in 20th century. 229 00:26:16,770 --> 00:26:23,610 I will say that without this pressure on rights, pressure on shaming Europeans, 230 00:26:24,180 --> 00:26:30,510 criticising European idea of civilisation, we would not have the the composition of Muslim. 231 00:26:31,860 --> 00:26:39,600 Why? Because after Lausanne treaty, which started in November and then continued until July, it's a very long process. 232 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:46,979 The delegates did not just talk about the details of population exchange, which is horrible. 233 00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:54,870 I'm going to talk about this on Turkey, you know, exchanging Muslims and Christians from Greece and Turkey or how to divide the debt. 234 00:26:55,050 --> 00:26:59,190 So Turkey assumed to 65% of the debt from Ottoman Empire. 235 00:26:59,670 --> 00:27:08,490 And they distributed the 35% in other countries, despite Turkish claim that they're no longer the inheritor of Ottoman Empire that they were. 236 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:16,830 There was also all of this fight over the meaning of history and progress who is civilised or not. 237 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:25,470 But they did this fight very politely and I think before Lausanne on the eve of World War One, during World War One, and even after World War One, 238 00:27:26,700 --> 00:27:35,990 European discourse on Turkey was blandly Gladstone in and with its uncivilised death by unity, 239 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,930 which they clearly say that the Turks should not be part of Europe. 240 00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:43,649 But you're very Europe and it's very mysterious. 241 00:27:43,650 --> 00:27:49,720 I mean, they already stated we expelled the barbaric Turks from Europe at the end of the bargain Balkan wars. 242 00:27:50,070 --> 00:27:54,180 But Europe could also be based in Turkey. Some in Europe could also be Istanbul. 243 00:27:55,210 --> 00:28:02,040 They can they can continue. And the whole Turkish modernism is to assume that you can be Muslim and European at the same time. 244 00:28:02,050 --> 00:28:05,760 That's what their goal. I will tell more about this. But it wasn't. 245 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:11,070 Suddenly everybody acts a little bit pull out because by then, by 1922, 246 00:28:11,970 --> 00:28:21,600 I think this planned nationalist talk of right civilisation, modernity kind of defeats that European arrogance in the summit. 247 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:29,729 I actually expected more arrogant talk by Lloyd George and they implied and there's a chance this barbaric 248 00:28:29,730 --> 00:28:36,610 and even after those time but they British and French and other delegates actually became aware about this. 249 00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:45,360 The Turks, in early stages of the Turkish nationalists, continue that apologetic discourse, saying that you were telling us we are barbarians. 250 00:28:45,630 --> 00:28:49,410 Look at where your Greek army did in Turkey, destroyed Anatolia. 251 00:28:49,710 --> 00:28:58,430 And they tried to avoid, of course, talking about World War One. Turkish nationalists pretend as if the history starts in 1918, 1919, 252 00:28:58,710 --> 00:29:05,330 and they have nothing to do with the expulsions of Armenians prominently or anything happened with the Turkish decision to enter were left. 253 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,900 But I would say this is extremely crucial in some ways. 254 00:29:10,170 --> 00:29:17,430 So there is an important aspects of the language of rights going up to those on supporting Turkish claims, 255 00:29:18,750 --> 00:29:22,740 even though of the military victories are really important in that process. 256 00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:26,580 And that's actually even. Which is a. 257 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:36,040 Well, even when Turkey receives what they want, Turkish nationalists, most of it at Lawson. 258 00:29:36,370 --> 00:29:42,189 Indian Muslims continue their struggle for rights in multiple ways. 259 00:29:42,190 --> 00:29:50,950 So the eloquent moment goes, I will say, or Indian Muslims kind of global women is a project goes beyond laws on example 260 00:29:50,950 --> 00:29:59,769 they support a resistance against Spanish colonisation and there is immediately 261 00:29:59,770 --> 00:30:09,399 after Luzon and the abolishment of the caliphate there there is a meeting between 262 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:15,430 Indians and the Turkish diplomats on the question of pilgrimage to Mecca. 263 00:30:16,060 --> 00:30:18,910 This is soon after a caliphate is already gone. 264 00:30:19,300 --> 00:30:28,120 And Indian Muslims wanted to raise the question of at least resistance and ask all the Muslim delegates to raise funds and money and support them. 265 00:30:28,420 --> 00:30:32,950 And Turkish delegates says, hey, we are here for talking about the pilgrimage and the foundation. 266 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:41,799 Is it the time to talk about the region? And certainly told to the Turkish delegates says, look, just two years ago you were sending your money, 267 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:48,880 you were asking your support, what happened to you, that you don't want us to do the same thing to the to the Moroccan Muslims? 268 00:30:49,660 --> 00:30:57,639 And they do impact, send emails and telegraph to the League of Nations and asking them to go interfere and interfere, 269 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:02,500 interfere and the Spanish cruelties on Greek people and give them their rights. 270 00:31:03,970 --> 00:31:14,110 So if if I have given at least a certain sense of taking plan, Islamism like that and their language of rights on the path to Lausanne, 271 00:31:14,110 --> 00:31:20,950 then maybe then I want to move on to the Turkish perspective on that a little bit and then try to combine it with them. 272 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,330 So from a Turkish nationalist perspective, 273 00:31:26,020 --> 00:31:33,280 obviously they were excited and happy and very pleased that they received this support and they knew that they couldn't do that. 274 00:31:33,490 --> 00:31:37,240 And it turns out that they couldn't do what they did without the Indian and global 275 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,889 support to their cause without putting it Islamic nation nationalism attitude. 276 00:31:41,890 --> 00:31:47,500 And, you know, and other Turkish leaders were in touch with the traffickers. 277 00:31:48,010 --> 00:31:51,310 They were always just telegraph exchanges. 278 00:31:51,790 --> 00:31:53,619 Money will come into a bank account. 279 00:31:53,620 --> 00:32:02,710 And the problem of that money they were also in touch with, of course, with the Bolsheviks, were very thankful to the support for their cause. 280 00:32:04,030 --> 00:32:07,990 And in fact, they use this as a card all the time. 281 00:32:08,890 --> 00:32:18,040 No question that any conversation that Turkish nationals had before Lovato always included that war charge. 282 00:32:18,070 --> 00:32:25,570 All the support we received from Asia and Africa, mainly Muslims, but even beyond the Muslims to non-Muslims. 283 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:33,580 So we are not alone with that. You have to give a lot of people what would be asked and they make together with. 284 00:32:34,970 --> 00:32:41,390 The pan-Islamic and other discourses on rights gave me this interesting notion that 285 00:32:41,690 --> 00:32:52,040 Europe promotes Greece as its own proxy invaders in the name of European civilisation. 286 00:32:52,730 --> 00:32:58,540 And the Greek argument is that Greece has to rule Anatolia because Turks have proven themselves to be highly uncivilised. 287 00:32:59,410 --> 00:33:08,319 So if the population is mixed because Ottoman Empire Muslim Muslims proven to be barbaric during World War One would do with all kinds of actions, 288 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:14,590 including the expulsion of Armenians. Then it should be the right of the civilised Christian to these mixed areas. 289 00:33:15,610 --> 00:33:23,709 And that's why the Turkish national anthem, written by a poet named Mehmet Activist I was an admirer of Mohammed. 290 00:33:23,710 --> 00:33:37,940 Evolve, has a line which says Not only the self-determination is the right of my people, that worship is worshipped by God. 291 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,530 That's the use of the word that is right, but also named for God. 292 00:33:42,130 --> 00:33:52,510 But in the next quadrant of the poem that is not part of the national anthem, it says Civilisation is a monster with defanged civilisations, 293 00:33:52,510 --> 00:33:56,920 a defiant monsters, a very harsh critic of our discourse of opposition that comes from Europe. 294 00:33:57,340 --> 00:34:01,719 And even though it was the Muslim migrant on the counter of the tradition of Afghani 295 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:07,090 and up to here had that emotional condemnation of the idea of civilisation, 296 00:34:08,410 --> 00:34:15,370 Turkish and the pan-Islamic language of civilisation has a distance regionalism that we have to also take it seriously, 297 00:34:15,370 --> 00:34:24,219 which says that even though everybody talks about universal criteria of values, of equality, of rights, there is some sort of emotional cheating. 298 00:34:24,220 --> 00:34:31,480 And the pilgrims might that you sympathise with grief are Armenians, but not with me when we are brutally oppressed. 299 00:34:32,980 --> 00:34:35,980 And then, you know, the earth might have been to the death. 300 00:34:35,980 --> 00:34:42,840 Why? That everybody has to regionally organise on their own ways to support their own people. 301 00:34:42,850 --> 00:34:51,880 So it is a kind of stomach argument or rites in an order which I think has to be taken seriously with what is happening with Ukraine, 302 00:34:52,780 --> 00:34:59,590 that suddenly with Ukraine we have seen what the what the white Christian movement is capable of, but they supported the Ukrainians. 303 00:34:59,890 --> 00:35:05,440 And that's what is like an argument that is an Asian or my African Islamic or if Palestinians or, 304 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:10,260 you know, Arabs or anyone is oppressor Turks is to be grateful to support them. 305 00:35:10,540 --> 00:35:14,139 But that's not a tribal word that they talk about civilisation, 306 00:35:14,140 --> 00:35:20,380 but not in a more consistent position that is always open, inclusive, and it moves beyond. 307 00:35:20,410 --> 00:35:24,650 That's why in many of the meetings with the British Muslim, 308 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:30,250 a delegation brings Hinduism back to one with Woodrow Wilson, including a lot of Hindu leaders. 309 00:35:30,610 --> 00:35:34,930 And they say that is not just not a question of us and them is the question of race. 310 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:47,810 And Hindus are 100%, which then I think one of Oxford pieces on whether the rise of Islamism by one year after the lesson of my 311 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:55,200 megalomania is a brilliant piece on talking about why a Hindu nationalist supported him on that independence. 312 00:35:55,210 --> 00:36:00,280 Then, of course, if by incidentally no number of something, 313 00:36:01,990 --> 00:36:07,600 but I hope everyone can read this is an open access article on the Hindu nationalists supporting that cause. 314 00:36:09,490 --> 00:36:15,610 So I think that argument and Ukraine doctors should actually tell us that they they had a 315 00:36:15,610 --> 00:36:22,570 point about world order and the emotional civilizational boundaries of right and never. 316 00:36:23,660 --> 00:36:31,940 But there's one aspect of a highly misunderstood reinterpretation of Mozart is 317 00:36:31,940 --> 00:36:40,400 that those are treaty was not a treaty by an Asian power with a European power. 318 00:36:40,460 --> 00:36:50,600 The Ottoman Empire mobilised Islamism into those arms, but the Ottomans were always European from hundreds of years earlier. 319 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,110 I mean, the capitals in Istanbul was was considered part of Europe. 320 00:36:55,490 --> 00:37:03,920 They of course, they were really affected by the language of Europe and Asia and Africa and where Islam fits imitated. 321 00:37:04,250 --> 00:37:10,100 In fact, young Ottomans were very puzzled because the Ottoman Empire was part of the concept of Europe, 322 00:37:10,970 --> 00:37:17,180 what Napoleonic wars, and there was no contradiction in their mind to be Muslim and European. 323 00:37:17,180 --> 00:37:20,070 A lot of those were not just the Muslim empires, especially after Monza, 324 00:37:20,090 --> 00:37:26,000 but they became even more cosmopolitan despite the dynastic credentials in their mind, 325 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:34,010 pan-Islamic support was not a natural support coming because they were part of Asia. 326 00:37:35,090 --> 00:37:45,680 Pakistani support or pan-Asian support for Turkey is as a reward against the double standards and hypocrisy of the Eurocentric imperial world, 327 00:37:45,980 --> 00:37:53,389 which created the racialisation of the world, and repression of Asians and Africans together with some of the non European monarchies. 328 00:37:53,390 --> 00:37:57,020 So the monarchies like Japan, Ottoman, 329 00:37:57,260 --> 00:38:05,120 Thailand and China were racialized in different forms and Ottomans were uniquely racialized and they were already part of the concept of Europe, 330 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:10,249 especially confirmed with the Paris Treaty of 1856 and only eight. 331 00:38:10,250 --> 00:38:15,559 After 1870s and eighties, there was a glass code in language that the Turks are horrible, 332 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,130 Muslims are barbaric, they are anti-human specimen of humanity. 333 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:25,910 And there are all kinds of different racial theories around the language of Europe that some Europeans argued that, 334 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,680 you know, Arabs and Indians are better Muslims and the northern Muslims are worse than that. 335 00:38:32,690 --> 00:38:36,320 They are the militaristic Muslims that gave Islam a very bad name. 336 00:38:37,250 --> 00:38:47,520 Even in the in the Hindu-Muslim. Solidarity in support of Turkey is only this talk about Aryan and tyranny and race are getting together right that 337 00:38:47,580 --> 00:38:54,830 there's this the racial language is always there as part of this moral humanist language for the struggle for rights. 338 00:38:56,010 --> 00:38:57,900 Well, for Turkish nationalists, 339 00:38:58,260 --> 00:39:08,100 the question of reason was that Turkey was kicked out of Europe by force and they're going back in there once they got that treaty. 340 00:39:08,850 --> 00:39:18,420 And they are not thinking it that way because they are traitors to Omar or because they think Asia is backward, they need to leverage this. 341 00:39:19,050 --> 00:39:26,310 You know, I wrote a book on pension as my big question about Japanese pension is saying that Japan initially said, 342 00:39:27,540 --> 00:39:31,440 which is optical illusion, that Asia is backward. 343 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:38,430 Japan has to leave Asia to join Europe in order to be civilised and powerful. 344 00:39:39,090 --> 00:39:45,090 And then if it the collision is in 1920s, all the Japanese leaders said, Oh, we have to go back to Asia. 345 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,730 But of course we are in reality with Asia and Europe is stuck. Articles, 346 00:39:48,740 --> 00:39:54,780 inspections are born in the mid-19th century and whatever leaving and going back to Asia meant is that we 347 00:39:54,780 --> 00:40:01,050 have to understand it is a geopolitical mental constructions with some political military implications. 348 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,759 It document is even more complex because they were never in Oriental power, 349 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:14,219 they were in Europe and their appeal to punish them is in the sense that they are not appealing to an Islamic bloc of countries to go back to. 350 00:40:14,220 --> 00:40:19,260 There is no alternative to the European centre of international order in their mind. 351 00:40:19,730 --> 00:40:21,240 And you know, but India, 352 00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:30,240 Muslims and Ottomans realise it and they know that that the Prophet Muhammad is a moment in the British Empire, which is the greatest. 353 00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:34,920 Muhammad is not it is not a movement of an alternative international order 354 00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:40,830 interfering and to take Turkey to their side and protect them against Europe. 355 00:40:42,270 --> 00:40:49,910 This has to be noted. Second. When the Turkish delegation started Mosul. 356 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:57,890 In fact, the Turkish delegation met in India, and neither is whether the Bolshevik leaders in Switzerland and the important delegation. 357 00:40:58,220 --> 00:41:07,280 A meeting started now always being a meeting of conferences, the discussions going on around the conference, it's a long conference. 358 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,780 There's all kind of poker games happening. Picnics and parties are happening, too. 359 00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:20,959 But there are, you know, friends of Turkey and Switzerland have a meeting and they experiment with solving a different argument. 360 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,750 So there's a hard power negotiation going on. 361 00:41:24,750 --> 00:41:32,090 Then what will be the borders? What do you do with the people in those borders you want people around is a compulsory 362 00:41:32,090 --> 00:41:39,430 population exchange and Turks insisted that the Armenians coming back is no cannot be discussed. 363 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:45,440 It's already closed chapter. There's the question of the Arabs where they're going to be in or out, how much Turkey will help get out. 364 00:41:45,450 --> 00:41:48,890 So it's some sort of what kind of practical decisions we need to make. 365 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:59,809 But there's also this question of who is the was barbaric, which is our right and turkey gets is sometimes giving this very exaggerated speech. 366 00:41:59,810 --> 00:42:04,010 Appeasement persists, which is that Turks invented tolerance of human rights. 367 00:42:04,010 --> 00:42:05,749 They were already treating them very well. 368 00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:13,639 So they got the chief rabbi from Istanbul as part of the Turkish delegation to how did, for example, Jews are a model minority. 369 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:20,420 Look, nothing happens to them. And that means that if anything bad happens to Armenians because of the European intervention, 370 00:42:20,730 --> 00:42:25,610 then to Greece or Greece and Turkey, then support would be made in Greek armies. 371 00:42:26,540 --> 00:42:31,700 So if anything is happening to them, it's because they deserve that they ask for. 372 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,830 But that's that. Well, that language is not what is happening. 373 00:42:36,830 --> 00:42:40,390 There is that secondary language of race coming. 374 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:47,240 And this racial question is puzzling me. Enhanced. Lucas classmate is writing a book on this today. 375 00:42:47,580 --> 00:42:49,490 This debate on race and civilisation. 376 00:42:49,970 --> 00:42:59,900 What puzzled me is that the Turks, with support from the Swiss anthropologists, are very sympathetic to this idea that nobody should solve them. 377 00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:04,610 Some of the white race and they say, well, we are, quote, sacrilege or tyranny. 378 00:43:04,610 --> 00:43:07,759 And it is with so much contradictions in it. 379 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:15,110 Right. That if you separate your thoughts from the Arabs, you go back to central lives of the other barbarians that goes back to Jimi's car. 380 00:43:15,150 --> 00:43:21,050 Right. That's one that in the Ukrainian war, according to The Wall Street Journal, Putin is becoming an Asian Jesus. 381 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:28,480 But they think if they could, they could sell it, they could make an argument that they are different than the other Asians. 382 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:36,290 They're they're white. There is civilising impact that this idea that the Turks will then have to subcontract the civilising 383 00:43:36,290 --> 00:43:46,609 missions to uplift Asia and Africa is also happening there in all of these new compositions. 384 00:43:46,610 --> 00:43:49,630 We see that in the history of the world order. 385 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:57,170 When we move from one form of imperial order, not yet national to another form of imperial order, 386 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:02,540 but actually European empires expand in the Middle East. So there's that sort of scramble for Africa. 387 00:44:02,540 --> 00:44:07,040 There's a scramble for the Arab lands. And I think some of this work beautifully. 388 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,139 All these questions on why we have to see World War One. 389 00:44:10,140 --> 00:44:16,520 NASR Another turning point for equal examination by the turning point for further colonisation of our lands. 390 00:44:16,970 --> 00:44:24,799 So the Turkish nationalists managed to take themselves out of that mode by not doing too much about the Arabs too, 391 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:32,480 but making interesting arguments of their whiteness and belonging to, to, to the European order. 392 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:40,730 As a result of that, I'm going to quickly move to my 45 minutes and then a couple of minutes I will wrap it up. 393 00:44:41,660 --> 00:44:45,230 As a result of that, they reach a bargain apartment. 394 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:52,400 The dispute over the sorry, the window turkey ends up being republic at the end with this is truly an imperial one sided place. 395 00:44:52,790 --> 00:45:02,479 There was the one question that they left open, but they resolved it later on and then British managed to resolve it on their own benefit. 396 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,600 That's the question of Mosul and the northern Iraq question. 397 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:12,499 Their terms were intact. Turkey wanted to keep it because they tried to sell their country as a country of Turks. 398 00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:16,319 And Turks and British claimed that this was more of an Arab place. 399 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:21,230 So they kept it for Iraq, for themselves, with with the knowledge that there was also oil in there. 400 00:45:21,590 --> 00:45:30,080 But the bargain is, from the Turkish nationalist perspective, is a triumph, is a satisfactory bargain from the British perspective. 401 00:45:30,350 --> 00:45:40,159 It is also a very satisfactory one, because then they in their mind, they actually created peace in the in the Near East with a very costly, 402 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:45,140 traumatic, forced population exchange coming with the Greeks and Turks, which. 403 00:45:45,790 --> 00:45:51,819 Fully implemented in Turkey and Greece managed a good relationship afterwards. 404 00:45:51,820 --> 00:46:00,910 So if George was there, be able to write something together on this question of Turkey and Greece and civilisation as a joint article. 405 00:46:01,810 --> 00:46:12,160 But I have to say that at this point, if you look at woman realises that this is an incomplete piece, 406 00:46:12,850 --> 00:46:23,010 they immediately realise that Arabs are so abundant that Jordan wondered about there is no helping Arabs. 407 00:46:23,020 --> 00:46:27,880 Palestine is colonised. Syria is under French mandate. Iraq is a horrible situation. 408 00:46:28,150 --> 00:46:31,870 They are completely upset about the approval of the job, but they don't want to. 409 00:46:32,380 --> 00:46:37,090 They can't do much about this and they keep your clothes on. 410 00:46:37,090 --> 00:46:44,739 They said, this is great, you will revise their treaty, but this wasn't what we think we should have done. 411 00:46:44,740 --> 00:46:54,280 You could have done more. And if local leaders then extend this, a seemingly religious argument, but clearly a very political one, 412 00:46:54,280 --> 00:47:00,880 and its argument is this is that when they said when we say in return for our sacrifices, 413 00:47:01,270 --> 00:47:11,110 caliphate should be preserved and holy lands of Arabia should be kept independent from Western European control. 414 00:47:11,530 --> 00:47:17,889 We want to remind you that Jerusalem is also a holy land of Arabia and you are creating a mandate 415 00:47:17,890 --> 00:47:22,450 in Palestine is a violation of the British promises to Indian Muslim support for the war. 416 00:47:22,780 --> 00:47:33,040 And then they continue to say that. Meanwhile, you also destroyed our own country, that there was a Syrian state that was built, 417 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:39,790 that the French took over and they kept their own resistance to British imposition of colonial 418 00:47:39,790 --> 00:47:45,400 rule in the Arab lands so that they are seen that this is not a fulfilment of their demands. 419 00:47:45,670 --> 00:47:57,280 But as Margaret. So then the final note, how do we dead don't understand the abolishment of the caliphate and we can then start our discussion. 420 00:47:57,700 --> 00:48:03,370 So this moment of July two in 1923 of Lausanne treaty signed. 421 00:48:06,260 --> 00:48:14,719 Followed by a short period of almost eight months where I'm kind of government led by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, 422 00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:20,420 kept a spiritual caliphate in Istanbul and they could have kept it longer. 423 00:48:22,070 --> 00:48:29,420 So there were many different options. Why don't you give me the reasons why that spiritual caliphate, not the real caliphate, was abolished, 424 00:48:29,780 --> 00:48:36,770 a caliphate that was actually created by the Turkish Parliament, but also abolished by the Turkish Parliament in March 1924. 425 00:48:37,340 --> 00:48:38,810 During that process, 426 00:48:40,100 --> 00:48:49,700 Indian delegation led by and Aga Khan tried to intervene and tried to persuade Turkish nationalists edition just keep it and in fact give more power. 427 00:48:49,910 --> 00:48:54,230 And it would be precision for Turkey's power international, the new Turkey's power. 428 00:48:54,740 --> 00:49:04,760 And what surprised me is rudeness and the arrogance of the Turkish leaders after benefiting so much from the climate movement. 429 00:49:05,630 --> 00:49:08,120 So when that letter was published in Istanbul Press, 430 00:49:08,990 --> 00:49:13,860 I guess many of you know the story that the government claimed that it was something of a British conspiracy. 431 00:49:13,910 --> 00:49:19,790 This and in the letter being published in its public press before it reaches Ankara. 432 00:49:20,330 --> 00:49:25,610 And then what I find very rude and I apologise for all the details, 433 00:49:25,610 --> 00:49:32,219 the insult that I could come and see them when I did that, that these are also heretic Muslims. 434 00:49:32,220 --> 00:49:37,190 They're not simply that one of them is the imam of these smileys, either of the Shia or Shia. 435 00:49:37,460 --> 00:49:42,510 And he says, Why do you even care about the caliphate? Theoretically, you're not even supposed to believe in the country. 436 00:49:42,860 --> 00:49:46,230 And that's before. And then there's this discussion. 437 00:49:46,250 --> 00:49:54,120 But it also shows and we discussed this, that how much of Palestine is and was not theological and theocratic oriented, 438 00:49:54,310 --> 00:49:58,340 that this was a project of rights reimagining the world. 439 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,660 We making it a to be done, you know, with or without empires. 440 00:50:02,670 --> 00:50:05,090 It's much more complicated, but necessarily without empire. 441 00:50:07,850 --> 00:50:17,270 So the peak success and excitement about the end of it and woman ended with a silence and disappointing news that 442 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:27,079 the not the last caliph was sent to France and there was nothing that anyone could do about it except that again, 443 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:37,340 an Indian Muslim prince ended up financially protecting the caliphate by marrying his sons to supporters or the royal family. 444 00:50:37,340 --> 00:50:40,639 Suppresses is a separate story, which is a very fascinating story. 445 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:46,969 But I would like to stop here because I went beyond my minutes so that I get your feedback and I have some other comments. 446 00:50:46,970 --> 00:50:49,950 But then the question then afterwards I hope you can think of.