1 00:00:07,140 --> 00:00:17,160 Hello, I'm Timothy Garton Ash, welcome to the Europe Stories podcast, what the young Europeans want the European Union to do and to be. 2 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:18,510 Over the last three years, 3 00:00:18,510 --> 00:00:27,450 an amazing group of young Europeans have worked with me here at the European Studies Centre at Oxford University to answer this question. 4 00:00:27,450 --> 00:00:30,990 And this podcast will present their findings. 5 00:00:30,990 --> 00:00:54,140 Host Anna and Luckhurst say have a series of conversations with the authors of our concluding report and give you their answers. 6 00:00:54,140 --> 00:01:01,340 So I think we can go ahead and introduce our guests here today, both of whom co-authored this chapter in Social Europe, 7 00:01:01,340 --> 00:01:06,920 both of whom have a lot of expertise and experience researching social policy in Europe as well. 8 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:15,760 So Kristjan is originally from North Macedonia and actually has been working with the Europe stories team remotely, 9 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:22,600 mostly, I think this entire time during the pandemic. And he is currently. 10 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:29,770 Completing his defence of policy at Oxford and especially coming from North Macedonia is especially interested in question. 11 00:01:29,770 --> 00:01:33,790 Do you enlargement also in relation to social policy, 12 00:01:33,790 --> 00:01:40,000 yeomen's judicial candidates in the Department of Social Policy and Intervention at the University of Oxford. 13 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:48,010 His thesis is focussed on employment patterns of couples in Europe and how social and employment policies can affect the formation of jobless couples. 14 00:01:48,010 --> 00:01:55,810 So thinking back on our conversation, I think what's really striking is that both of them have a lot of deep knowledge about social policy, 15 00:01:55,810 --> 00:02:01,210 but they're also bringing in practical experience at the European institutional level, 16 00:02:01,210 --> 00:02:07,570 but also personal experiences from growing up and from having experiences of different parts of Europe, 17 00:02:07,570 --> 00:02:12,150 which I think really comes out in the course of a conversation. Yeah, 18 00:02:12,150 --> 00:02:17,740 and it's interesting because you started out more sceptical about the prospect of 19 00:02:17,740 --> 00:02:25,810 integrating the EU further and Kristjan is much more optimistic about federalisation, 20 00:02:25,810 --> 00:02:37,200 for instance. And and I think he he at least started to change his mind a bit as we get into this conversation. 21 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:42,600 Yeah, which is one of the great things that we've seen over the course of these interviews is really 22 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:49,530 how the co-author is often hash out their differences and sometimes come to a new agreement, 23 00:02:49,530 --> 00:02:55,240 or sometimes they understand their differences in a different way. 24 00:02:55,240 --> 00:03:02,530 So could you both tell us a bit about your background and how you came to write about this particular chapter in our report? 25 00:03:02,530 --> 00:03:08,620 So currently, I'm a soon to be second year student at the Department of Social Policy, 26 00:03:08,620 --> 00:03:14,140 but I'm looking at family policy, particularly in Eastern Europe, and my thesis, 27 00:03:14,140 --> 00:03:16,120 which is a very preliminary stage, 28 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:27,130 deals with financial support for parents in six European countries and the relationship between the support and fertility rates in these countries. 29 00:03:27,130 --> 00:03:32,860 So very much a European topic, even though not all of the countries I cover are in the EU. 30 00:03:32,860 --> 00:03:40,640 But it is geographically and culturally speaking and terms of social policy and based social policy intervention department. 31 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:47,860 I consider myself a proud European. I used to be a member of the young European Federalists in my home country in North Macedonia, 32 00:03:47,860 --> 00:03:54,460 in our local chapter of Federalist Magazine of the European Federalists. 33 00:03:54,460 --> 00:04:01,030 Where are you joining us from, by the way? Christesen. I'm currently in Skopje, in Macedonia. 34 00:04:01,030 --> 00:04:08,350 I'm in the second year of my different social policy and I'm studying, broadly speaking, employment policy in Europe. 35 00:04:08,350 --> 00:04:15,580 I'm interested in the relationships in terms of labour supply within couples where one partner works, 36 00:04:15,580 --> 00:04:22,120 whether the other partner will be more likely to work or not. And I'm studying that over the last 40 years in European countries. 37 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:34,000 So very much an EU focus. I'm just concentrating on EU countries and have been from undergrad to master's to Ph.D. without interruption. 38 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:39,730 And in the course of that, I realised I wanted to get experience from outside academia. 39 00:04:39,730 --> 00:04:42,370 I've always been really interested in the EU. 40 00:04:42,370 --> 00:04:50,290 As I said, my thesis focuses on the EU and I've always known that I wanted to work in some way on the EU like Christian, 41 00:04:50,290 --> 00:04:56,050 Democrat, European definitely feel more European than French, which is my original nationality. 42 00:04:56,050 --> 00:05:00,460 And so to me, it was very natural to apply to work for the EU. 43 00:05:00,460 --> 00:05:06,250 So I did a five month graduate traineeship for them and I was lucky enough to be selected 44 00:05:06,250 --> 00:05:10,120 in the team working directly for the Commissioner for Employment and Social Affairs, 45 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,500 Nicholas Schmidt, which was a fascinating experience, very intense work. 46 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:19,960 That's a crucial time as well for employment and social affairs in the aftermath of covid. 47 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:27,310 Congratulations, by the way, where are you joining us from now? Some in Geneva currently, because that's where my dad lives. 48 00:05:27,310 --> 00:05:38,350 Let's build on that a bit. So it sounds like both of you have really found this passion for social policy and in particular European social policy. 49 00:05:38,350 --> 00:05:42,580 I wonder when you reflect on how you came onto this interest, 50 00:05:42,580 --> 00:05:52,420 whether you think it was something very organic and natural that emerged from your background growing up. 51 00:05:52,420 --> 00:05:58,290 And it's something that perhaps you share with many other people that you grew up with. 52 00:05:58,290 --> 00:06:05,380 Or whether it's the more or particular interest that might be quite different from those of people around you. 53 00:06:05,380 --> 00:06:10,920 And if so, what might have led you on to this more specific path? 54 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,550 For me, it's always been completely natural to be interested in you. 55 00:06:14,550 --> 00:06:17,040 And I feel completely European and I've been really lucky. 56 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:23,100 To be honest, I was privileged to grow up in a very international environment, be able to follow my parents when they want to. 57 00:06:23,100 --> 00:06:30,090 Then I went to international schools. And it's not an environment really that made me feel very European. 58 00:06:30,090 --> 00:06:35,340 And that's why it's always been completely natural to focus on European issues. 59 00:06:35,340 --> 00:06:37,260 I'm a political scientist by training. 60 00:06:37,260 --> 00:06:43,050 I did East European studies with an emphasis on politics, both from an undergraduate degree and my graduate degree. 61 00:06:43,050 --> 00:06:50,100 It always fascinated me how both materialist these European countries that I have focussed on have become always 62 00:06:50,100 --> 00:06:56,970 cultural issues that people prefer to talk about a lot of nationalism involved and the issues that really matter. 63 00:06:56,970 --> 00:07:02,550 In my opinion, the domestic social issues, economic issues are usually sidelined. 64 00:07:02,550 --> 00:07:07,510 So that has motivated me to try and disrupt the status quo and direct the focus. 65 00:07:07,510 --> 00:07:15,510 This as an academic in the mainstream, it's more difficult the words social policy and domestic politics more broadly, 66 00:07:15,510 --> 00:07:20,850 because it really tends to be neglected in my region of focus. 67 00:07:20,850 --> 00:07:26,640 Of course, being from North Macedonia, some people would say still clashes with being European, 68 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,310 despite the obvious geographical and cultural belonging. 69 00:07:29,310 --> 00:07:35,340 Because my country has been trying to join the European Union for almost, what is it, 30 years. 70 00:07:35,340 --> 00:07:42,300 And we're still not even close to doing so because we haven't even opened our accession talks with the EU. 71 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:51,240 So I have been very frustrated with the union at times, but luckily, until now at least, it hasn't interfered with my with my broader European ID. 72 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:56,100 And I have throughout the years been a strong advocate for the European integration of my country. 73 00:07:56,100 --> 00:08:01,380 And that's about it. I've done public advocacy on that topic. 74 00:08:01,380 --> 00:08:08,810 So yeah, those are the European gateway and the social policy gateway for me into writing this chapter. 75 00:08:08,810 --> 00:08:16,370 Christiane, you mentioned that in today's public discourse, cultural issues seem to be prioritised over social issues. 76 00:08:16,370 --> 00:08:23,210 Did it surprise you that in your findings in the first section of the report about what young Europeans want, 77 00:08:23,210 --> 00:08:29,090 you came to the conclusion that for the majority, of course, there are nuances and we'll discuss that. 78 00:08:29,090 --> 00:08:33,380 It seems that young Europeans are still mostly concerned with social policy issues. 79 00:08:33,380 --> 00:08:37,330 Do you want to comment on that? Well, let's start with the qualitative insights. 80 00:08:37,330 --> 00:08:42,320 We because from the interviews that are available on the website of Europe stories and they're 81 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,910 actually we didn't get a lot of mentions of social policy and social issues in general. 82 00:08:46,910 --> 00:08:54,920 I think what we have in the report and the last game and I for is the number of interviews is changing constantly on the website. 83 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:04,010 But we were looking at was probably about four or five people identifying social policy or social topics in their interviews. 84 00:09:04,010 --> 00:09:10,700 So that wasn't a lot. But of course, we can also attribute it perhaps to people thinking that social issues are obviously important. 85 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:13,050 So there is no need to highlight them in interviews. 86 00:09:13,050 --> 00:09:18,980 You have to decide through specific issues that you consider to be most important to Europe right now. 87 00:09:18,980 --> 00:09:26,060 So that was maybe not necessarily a surprise, because people do tend to focus, at least in my experience, more on cultural issues. 88 00:09:26,060 --> 00:09:35,750 But yes, of our opinion polls and the positive things as it would have acquired social policy and social issues seem to be very high up on the agenda. 89 00:09:35,750 --> 00:09:43,850 And that was certainly a very positive surprise for me. Of course, for our chapter, we drew on our own polling and your stories, 90 00:09:43,850 --> 00:09:48,470 but also other police sources, the Eurobarometer, mainly the European Social Survey. 91 00:09:48,470 --> 00:09:53,810 And most of them were given, all of them seem to be pointing in a similar direction. 92 00:09:53,810 --> 00:10:03,260 So social issues are important for everyone, but especially for young people and more so than most other issues out there on the menu. 93 00:10:03,260 --> 00:10:12,260 So, for example, young Europeans stand out from the general population and mention inequality as the second biggest threat at the moment. 94 00:10:12,260 --> 00:10:20,720 They're also young Europeans have emerged as disproportionately concerned with job insecurity, even compared to people above the age of forty six. 95 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:25,670 We found in one of the sources we've looked at and they're also fighting poverty, 96 00:10:25,670 --> 00:10:34,940 fighting economic and social inequalities and boosting employment right as three of the top five priorities for the EU amongst the young Europeans. 97 00:10:34,940 --> 00:10:44,060 So clearly, social issues are very salient. I wasn't that surprised because a lot of these young Europeans would have known 98 00:10:44,060 --> 00:10:48,590 very closely the effects of the financial crisis and the sovereign debt crisis. 99 00:10:48,590 --> 00:10:57,170 And so we're talking about people who might be 15 to 30 years old. And so loads of them were probably just graduating from university or into their 100 00:10:57,170 --> 00:11:01,670 first job or just beginning on the job market when these crises happened. 101 00:11:01,670 --> 00:11:08,360 And we know how high still today, especially at that time, unemployment was for young Europeans. 102 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:13,010 And so to me, it feels kind of. Normal, 103 00:11:13,010 --> 00:11:17,570 but also reassuring in a sense that these social issues haven't been completely forgotten 104 00:11:17,570 --> 00:11:22,040 when you see the complete polarisation of the discourse and certain cultural issues. 105 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,360 And then more recently, we've had obviously the social consequences of the pandemic. 106 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:32,450 So when you take these two factors into account, it wasn't a complete shock to see it like that. 107 00:11:32,450 --> 00:11:43,850 Before moving on to the next question, let me just make sure to mention that we will have the links to the polls in our podcast notes, 108 00:11:43,850 --> 00:11:53,140 so many of these very interesting findings. Don't worry, if they're flying by you in the conversation, they will be in the notes. 109 00:11:53,140 --> 00:12:01,480 So human Christian, I would really like to ask you about a very interesting finding that or at least the suggestion, 110 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:07,000 which is a difference between young Europeans and very young Europeans. 111 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:19,330 Possibly in terms of the relative weight on social policy vs. other adjacent, but nonetheless distinct areas such as the environment. 112 00:12:19,330 --> 00:12:24,870 And I was wondering if you could tell us about that difference. What exactly are these two groups? 113 00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:31,120 How do you define them and what might be the difference as well as why might there be such a difference in general? 114 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:39,010 As I said, all forces seem to be pointing in a similar direction, and that's really the high salience of social issues for young people. 115 00:12:39,010 --> 00:12:40,720 But there is this important subdivision. 116 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:47,980 So in most of our resources, very young Europeans, we consider to be people in their late teens and early 20s, 117 00:12:47,980 --> 00:12:52,600 and then those slightly older would be young or older young Europeans, 118 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:58,930 if that makes sense, because there were usually some differences, not very significant, but some differences between the two groups. 119 00:12:58,930 --> 00:13:02,020 And that's what we describe as a cohort effect in our report. 120 00:13:02,020 --> 00:13:10,240 So basically, everyone older than twenty to twenty three, I would say most of the sources would rank social issues as most important, 121 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,620 but then amongst the slightly younger subgroup, you would have people drinking the environment. 122 00:13:14,620 --> 00:13:17,830 Education is more important than social policy. 123 00:13:17,830 --> 00:13:24,640 So the question that arises is, once these people who are in their mid and late 20s now leave this age group, 124 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,820 whether social policy will still be dominant in this age group. 125 00:13:27,820 --> 00:13:34,300 So when the children of today, in other words, become the young people of tomorrow, will our conclusions still stand? 126 00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:43,480 And of course, what Gail mentioned about the previous big crisis, the financial crisis of 2008, whether that might have played a role, 127 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:50,290 of course, because these older young Europeans do remember very vividly the crisis and that might not be the case. 128 00:13:50,290 --> 00:13:53,120 So much for the slightly younger subgroup. 129 00:13:53,120 --> 00:14:01,600 But then, of course, we have to qualify this, because even if those young Europeans in their early 20s prefer citing the environment, 130 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,070 for example, that's still a very slight difference. 131 00:14:04,070 --> 00:14:11,620 So we in our polling data, it was just a couple of percentage points of social social issues are still very much important to them as well. 132 00:14:11,620 --> 00:14:22,000 And thinking of crises, of course, we can't permit the ongoing crisis with the pandemic and whether there might be a period effect as well. 133 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:32,830 There is another thing to keep in mind, because the more we look for our sources from reporting cycles, from those sources, 134 00:14:32,830 --> 00:14:41,890 from the last four or five years, I would say, and the most recent waves usually indicated even more salience of social issues. 135 00:14:41,890 --> 00:14:46,450 So there might have been a covid-19 effect there, which might not necessarily be permanent. 136 00:14:46,450 --> 00:14:54,580 So we'll have to keep an eye on how that develops after the pandemic is more or less over before passing on to you. 137 00:14:54,580 --> 00:14:59,380 Maybe I can just open up. An opportunity here to reflect on the pandemic, 138 00:14:59,380 --> 00:15:11,410 which obviously is both very important and rather unknowable at this point in terms of the effects on attitudes towards social policy. 139 00:15:11,410 --> 00:15:18,980 In the report chapter, you hint at this uncertainty in terms of the possible effects of the pandemic. 140 00:15:18,980 --> 00:15:27,470 So we're now a year and a half into the pandemic. We have a number of interviews with a number of polls and of course, in the past year and a half, 141 00:15:27,470 --> 00:15:32,810 you've also observed the people around you, the conversations that are happening. 142 00:15:32,810 --> 00:15:41,520 Do you see a possible shift in the relative importance of social policy? 143 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:51,620 Certainly at European level. I think it's emphasised even more than before that the EU has a role to play in social issues. 144 00:15:51,620 --> 00:15:57,350 And to be honest, you always had some sort of social role, sometimes stronger, sometimes weaker, 145 00:15:57,350 --> 00:16:03,560 especially weak at the start of 2010 and the sovereign debt crisis where the main focus was on austerity. 146 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:13,880 But I feel like the importance of social issues in general and of what you can do has really increased when it's such a global crisis, 147 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,250 when incomes have been badly hit. 148 00:16:16,250 --> 00:16:25,730 And we've seen that the EU has set up a scheme show to help member states establish and finance short time work schemes. 149 00:16:25,730 --> 00:16:37,460 And my feeling from that is that yet the pandemic has put to the forefront issues of employment, but also income, maintenance, poverty. 150 00:16:37,460 --> 00:16:41,150 And even if you think of a country that's not in the EU anymore, but the UK, 151 00:16:41,150 --> 00:16:46,340 I mean, the UK, which was the epitome of the small states for the past 30, 152 00:16:46,340 --> 00:16:54,410 40 years, have set up a furlough scheme that was maintained for such a long time and effort from a Tory government as well. 153 00:16:54,410 --> 00:16:59,690 I mean, I thought that was quite telling in terms of the general shift in Europe, 154 00:16:59,690 --> 00:17:04,790 in terms of the attitude towards public spending and social support in general. 155 00:17:04,790 --> 00:17:11,520 But of course, the question is whether it'll be lusting after the pandemic. 156 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:17,380 Our interviews with Europeans from different generations are essential component of the Europe Stories project, 157 00:17:17,380 --> 00:17:21,990 you can explore their answers about their formative best and worst moments on our website, 158 00:17:21,990 --> 00:17:26,790 European Moments, Dotcom, several of those moments mentioned throughout this episode. 159 00:17:26,790 --> 00:17:35,730 Harlington, the description Christesen. I think it was you who mentioned that one of the tentative explanations for in our interviews, 160 00:17:35,730 --> 00:17:43,470 the concern was social policy not being as pronounced as it is in the opinion polls and other polling. 161 00:17:43,470 --> 00:17:46,030 So one of the explanations that you mentioned is, you know, 162 00:17:46,030 --> 00:17:52,830 it's such an obvious issue that people don't really think of it when they're confronted with what should be the priorities for the European Union. 163 00:17:52,830 --> 00:17:59,760 Could it also be that because the European Union has a reputation for doing relatively well on this front, 164 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:06,990 it's also seen as taken care of and therefore people are thinking of what the European Union should be focussing on. 165 00:18:06,990 --> 00:18:11,640 That's not been so well taken care of, for example, as a case of the environment. 166 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:19,410 If so, if you do think that this is a tentative explanation, how do you square that with the fact that young Europeans and very young Europeans in 167 00:18:19,410 --> 00:18:25,890 particular don't seem to be very well informed about what the EU does in social policy? 168 00:18:25,890 --> 00:18:29,130 And perhaps when answering that, 169 00:18:29,130 --> 00:18:36,720 you could start by telling us a little bit about what the EU actually does that young Europeans don't know so much about. 170 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:43,050 Again, I have to qualify my migration of interpretation of those qualitative insights that we acquired. 171 00:18:43,050 --> 00:18:50,040 I mean, again, here in my background as an Eastern Europe expert, my blaireau as well is in East European countries. 172 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,450 Talking about social policy can be a taboo sometimes because if you're talking about 173 00:18:54,450 --> 00:19:00,330 social policies and advocating for more leftwing approaches to policy in general, 174 00:19:00,330 --> 00:19:05,430 you immediately can be accused of being a socialist or a communist or the result as well. 175 00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:11,940 Whereas in Western Europe, as we saw from our poll numbers, that might not be so much of an issue, 176 00:19:11,940 --> 00:19:16,590 but your ideas of the broader picture and how informed Europeans are. 177 00:19:16,590 --> 00:19:21,850 So, of course, on the one hand, from the numbers, it seems that social policy is all there they're thinking of. 178 00:19:21,850 --> 00:19:28,920 But then when you scratch under the surface a little bit, there was this incredibly consistent statistic that came across. 179 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:36,810 Respondents were asked about the European pillar of social rights, an important initiative in this regard introduced by the EU in 2017, 180 00:19:36,810 --> 00:19:43,140 people aged 15 to 24 are even less likely than the general population to be able to describe it. 181 00:19:43,140 --> 00:19:50,070 And I emphasise even less likely because even the general population is highly unlikely to be able to describe. 182 00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:58,430 It is eight percent for the general population, six percent remarkably low for those aged 15 to 24. 183 00:19:58,430 --> 00:20:05,270 And to bounce back quickly on the reason why it might not be so mentioned by people in interviews, 184 00:20:05,270 --> 00:20:13,160 I'm wondering what it could almost be the reverse in the sense that people know social issues are taken care of in the EU, 185 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:21,020 but also most people would associate it with member states rather than your social policy and the welfare state and especially benefits. 186 00:20:21,020 --> 00:20:23,810 It's still seen as a sort of national prerogative. 187 00:20:23,810 --> 00:20:31,190 And in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if people were kind of astonished if they knew already how much the EU does in social affairs. 188 00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:37,370 Even if they probably do, you probably could do more. But for instance, the European Social Fund is a massive fund. 189 00:20:37,370 --> 00:20:44,780 It's billions of finance projects in every EU countries. And I would think that a lot of people perhaps don't know about it. 190 00:20:44,780 --> 00:20:52,010 And so yet, because of this idea that social policies, national level may be just not something that people bring up in interviews. 191 00:20:52,010 --> 00:20:54,350 Yeah, if I may add to that very briefly, 192 00:20:54,350 --> 00:21:01,460 we have this other statistic which actually brings more optimism into the picture about it's a little older from 2016, 193 00:21:01,460 --> 00:21:06,650 but it asks young people, young Europeans, how they would use a potential eurozone budget. 194 00:21:06,650 --> 00:21:13,130 And we have millennials at all levels of education prioritising supporting economically weaker countries. 195 00:21:13,130 --> 00:21:18,350 So over 40 percent of them cited this use of the budget, this mechanism. 196 00:21:18,350 --> 00:21:25,400 So there is a lot of solidarity there and interest really in action at the EU level, at least based on this particular statistic. 197 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:30,650 And another very sure point of where we were, where we're not hiding out beyond the night. 198 00:21:30,650 --> 00:21:38,870 We were disappointed with how few people cited social policy topics in interviews, but those who did were really enthusiastic about them. 199 00:21:38,870 --> 00:21:43,250 So that's also something worth highlighting because the numbers sometimes don't provide the full picture. 200 00:21:43,250 --> 00:21:47,060 And it's helpful to look at the specific quotes that we got. 201 00:21:47,060 --> 00:21:50,330 So we had a young Polish I.T. specialist, for example, 202 00:21:50,330 --> 00:21:57,560 saying that there should be a common European health care as a means of creating something similar to the United States of the EU. 203 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:04,070 So I think the enthusiasm there is is clear and then also from a completely different age group and different country, 204 00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:10,620 52 year old British Romanian teacher. So an older person, but still very much with a similar attitude towards this. 205 00:22:10,620 --> 00:22:14,450 I hope that the EU is a beacon of civility and progressive socialism, 206 00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:21,020 where the health and happiness of people are prioritised over profit and the natural environment is protected, expanded and treasured. 207 00:22:21,020 --> 00:22:28,700 So equally, data sometimes reveal this more, I would argue pointedly, than the quantitative was. 208 00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:38,680 If I can now bring in one issue here on Christian that I think might connect our discussion of what young Europeans want with what the EU is doing. 209 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:50,230 One of the very suggestive ideas in the chapter report is that of universal basic income, especially at the European level. 210 00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:54,490 Now, I think that idea, UBI, is very interesting. 211 00:22:54,490 --> 00:23:02,020 But let's just start with a factual question. Is there any movement on this at the European level? 212 00:23:02,020 --> 00:23:06,160 The short answer would be no, I'm afraid both, 213 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:17,380 because the focus at the minute is more on jobs and getting people back in jobs in the recovery now after the phase of income support. 214 00:23:17,380 --> 00:23:23,440 Now is the time, at least according to the EU, to put people back into jobs. 215 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:28,240 The other thing would be I think it would be terribly difficult politically. 216 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:37,630 You already see the minimum wage is already very difficult because you have to put so many countries together to accept it. 217 00:23:37,630 --> 00:23:41,590 And UBI is even more revolutionary on many. 218 00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:48,700 And I might be corrected by someone who did EU law on that, but on many social policy issues, 219 00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:52,300 as soon as it requires harmonisation of Social Security rules, 220 00:23:52,300 --> 00:24:02,110 for instance, you need all countries to agree unanimously and so on, very ambitious social policy reforms that also might be an obstacle. 221 00:24:02,110 --> 00:24:06,040 There is definitely a growing movement in EU member states. 222 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:11,830 And for instance, I think that in Berlin that started the trial of an actual full universal basic income. 223 00:24:11,830 --> 00:24:18,410 And there is a movement for sure in Europe, in member states, by civil society sometimes. 224 00:24:18,410 --> 00:24:25,930 But I think at EU level we didn't see and we didn't foresee any movement on that front for the near future at least. 225 00:24:25,930 --> 00:24:29,500 And it's important to remember that this remains a very popular policy. 226 00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:37,240 So the gap between what governments do and what people want might be the widest for for for this particular policy, 227 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,410 because according to our polling from March 2020, 228 00:24:41,410 --> 00:24:45,430 71 percent of people in general and the exact same percentage of people aged 229 00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:52,210 16 to 29 support the introduction of the slightly higher four to four percent 230 00:24:52,210 --> 00:25:00,970 are thankful for young people in terms of supporting a higher minimum wage at the European level to fix it at a specific percentage of median income. 231 00:25:00,970 --> 00:25:07,870 But as you said earlier, even minimum wage action at the EU level is difficult, let alone the RBI action. 232 00:25:07,870 --> 00:25:14,980 So this part of the conversation might be a little utopian because it's 27 countries that have different cultures. 233 00:25:14,980 --> 00:25:21,880 And also that's the beauty of the EU, is that we make things with 27 countries that might have quite different backgrounds and cultures, 234 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,000 but on social policy and welfare state, which is really sensitive. 235 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:30,670 It might be hard because countries have very different visions and you have countries that CGU as a very political project. 236 00:25:30,670 --> 00:25:36,070 So, for instance, that that would be from other countries to do more as a single market. 237 00:25:36,070 --> 00:25:40,390 And they want the EU to refrain as much as possible from getting into social issues. 238 00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:44,920 And many countries also see the welfare state as just a purely national thing. 239 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:50,300 You have to remember that the welfare state is very often tied to development of the nation state, for instance. 240 00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:57,520 That's what we refer to in the chapter when we refer to Bismarck because he's seen as the great grandfather of the welfare state. 241 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:03,250 And it's often said that he did that to cement the national identity in Prussia at the time. 242 00:26:03,250 --> 00:26:09,220 So all that to say that moving forward on things that can involve redistribution, 243 00:26:09,220 --> 00:26:17,770 taxation and redistribution of income and direct income support to citizens is very, very touchy indeed. 244 00:26:17,770 --> 00:26:25,600 I should add that while there's no move on universal basic income as part of the 54 for 55 environmental package, 245 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,310 there was a climate action fund that was created to compensate lower income 246 00:26:30,310 --> 00:26:35,650 households from the notably the increase in the price of fuel or transport. 247 00:26:35,650 --> 00:26:43,870 And it's very interesting that this Climate Social Action Fund gives the possibility to use the money of that fund for direct income support. 248 00:26:43,870 --> 00:26:50,770 It doesn't say you have to use it for direct income support. He says, OK, you can use the money to directly give it to citizens. 249 00:26:50,770 --> 00:27:01,900 And that is a big step for the EU because it's something that member states for a long time have been feeling very sensitive about. 250 00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:05,530 The opinion polls are being conducted in partnership with Epinions, 251 00:27:05,530 --> 00:27:12,280 revealed that 71 percent of Europeans believe the state should give all citizens a basic income. 252 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,820 You can find a link to our project's findings in the description. 253 00:27:15,820 --> 00:27:23,920 For now, the Centre Rosemann Cell, a retired artist from the U.K., tell us what she would like the EU to have achieved by 2030. 254 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:37,420 Definitely some kind of basic income for people and for the northern wealthier parts of Europe, like the Netherlands and Germany and Sweden, 255 00:27:37,420 --> 00:27:59,600 to actually help the poorer parts like Portugal, Spain, Italy to have a better economic value. 256 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:05,210 One thing that I found very interesting in the chapter is how young Europeans, 257 00:28:05,210 --> 00:28:09,200 even though they value, much like the rest of Europeans, social policy issues, 258 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,140 in particular unemployment and welfare, 259 00:28:12,140 --> 00:28:20,510 they do value these priorities differently and they're more willing to support some sort of policies than others compared to other generations. 260 00:28:20,510 --> 00:28:30,060 So UBI is one example, minimum wage policy as well. First of all, did this surprise you in any way and regardless of whether you expected it or not, 261 00:28:30,060 --> 00:28:36,530 do you have any tentative explanations for these nuances? Well, in terms of the minimum wage pacifically, 262 00:28:36,530 --> 00:28:43,550 it's probably motivated by just how dire the situation is in real life and how far we are from a dignified, 263 00:28:43,550 --> 00:28:47,280 I would say, level of the minimum wage in the USA. 264 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:56,010 We have requested the general picture is positive and correct me if I'm wrong about this, but the press has a minimum wage at about 60 percent. 265 00:28:56,010 --> 00:29:02,110 I read somewhere of the median wage of the country, which is good, but most countries don't even have 50 percent. 266 00:29:02,110 --> 00:29:06,200 A couple of them have about 40, which is which is very, very low. 267 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,910 So, of course, I think going to explain part of citizens frustration about this. 268 00:29:10,910 --> 00:29:17,900 But in terms of the gap between, again, young Europeans and the rest of the population, I would highlight gender equality from our research. 269 00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:25,100 And I think this is reflected in the report, as well as the one area where young people really stand out from the rest of the population. 270 00:29:25,100 --> 00:29:31,190 So for all the other issues cited before you, a few percentage points here they are for for gender equality, even though, 271 00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:37,430 of course, it has now penetrated the mainstream and even old people are very much in favour of gender equality. 272 00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:42,390 I think the salience of gender equality young people is really distinctive, basically. 273 00:29:42,390 --> 00:29:49,160 Thirty six percent of young Europeans cite gender equality as part of the ideal future for the European Union. 274 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,870 And I think they have to say only think about that several aspects. 275 00:29:53,870 --> 00:29:57,230 And only 26 percent of the general population did that. 276 00:29:57,230 --> 00:30:00,440 So the gap here is particularly striking. 277 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:08,180 And the other difference that I would notice is something that Christian into the poll in the previous answer, 278 00:30:08,180 --> 00:30:14,570 which is the solidarity between EU member states that shows in different polls they are 279 00:30:14,570 --> 00:30:19,700 willing to support economically weaker countries that are willing to support the unemployed, 280 00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:27,470 even if it's in other countries. They would be willing to use a hypothetical using to support people moving from one country to another to get a job. 281 00:30:27,470 --> 00:30:33,290 And when you ask them what they would use the EU money for if it was a European budget, 282 00:30:33,290 --> 00:30:37,100 one of the things that the least enthusiastic about is structural reform. 283 00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:43,460 And we know that the EU is all about structural reform, something that especially in the early 2010, 284 00:30:43,460 --> 00:30:48,800 a lot of money was granted only to states if they would reform this and that in depth. 285 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:56,990 And so we can see that young Europeans get a lot less about that and a lot more about solidarity, which is very interesting. 286 00:30:56,990 --> 00:30:57,410 And again, 287 00:30:57,410 --> 00:31:06,290 I would say contrast with what I was also hinting upon before about how member states sometimes see welfare state as a national perspective. 288 00:31:06,290 --> 00:31:15,920 It seems that young Europeans tend to be kind of going beyond that and don't necessarily care about who pays and where the solidarity is coming from. 289 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:21,530 As long as there is some degree of solidarity and redistribution, which I found was interesting. 290 00:31:21,530 --> 00:31:34,310 So on this theme of what the EU is doing, I wonder if I can ask you to reflect a bit on your time as a trainee at a European institution. 291 00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:43,700 So you've worked with this project for a number of polls and reports and you've 292 00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:48,780 come to those conclusions and then you've had that practical experience. 293 00:31:48,780 --> 00:32:00,750 How has that. Perspective from inside the institutions enriched by the kinds of questions and findings that we can read about in the chapter. 294 00:32:00,750 --> 00:32:09,420 I think the one thing it helps with is it helps you understand a lot more of what the EU means, 295 00:32:09,420 --> 00:32:16,470 because I think a lot of us, even the most informed a lot of things together, like G.U. is the commission. 296 00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:19,230 It's Pantaleon, it's the council, and we don't really know what it means. 297 00:32:19,230 --> 00:32:28,080 And for me, I then realised the different actors and the interplay between them and how the commission interacts with the council. 298 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:33,810 And for instance, he made me understand a lot more the dynamics around the minimum wage directive 299 00:32:33,810 --> 00:32:38,130 and how it has been adopted by the commission and the College of Commissioners. 300 00:32:38,130 --> 00:32:44,460 But now it has to go through the approval of the member states, which might amend it, which might be rejected. 301 00:32:44,460 --> 00:32:51,300 So I think it really improved, really, in the standing of what European social policy, of how it is made. 302 00:32:51,300 --> 00:33:02,010 And also, it was interesting to be inside at a time where social policy is really at the heart of the agenda of the EU. 303 00:33:02,010 --> 00:33:11,220 And it's a fairly recent thing. And it's not only covid, it was before covid, but honestly, in the early 2010s, all the you seem to talk about, 304 00:33:11,220 --> 00:33:16,200 as far as I can remember, when I was younger was know budget, budgetary rules, stability. 305 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,100 And it has started to change with the presidency of Juncker, 306 00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:24,630 who introduced the European pillar of social rights and Vandelay and really committed to that. 307 00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:28,800 And Vandelay and is not a left wing politician who actually comes from the CDU. 308 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:39,330 But she really committed to this idea of a more social Europe even before covid and arrived at a time where the issue was really pressing, 309 00:33:39,330 --> 00:33:45,090 especially working on the show programme that talked about supporting time work scheme. 310 00:33:45,090 --> 00:33:49,650 So it was really interesting to be inside the EU as well at the time with the overall narrative 311 00:33:49,650 --> 00:33:55,440 is has been changing in the past few years where social policy investment is seen as legitimate, 312 00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:03,540 where social spending is encouraged by reducing poverty and inequality, are objectives that are really put to the forefront of the EU, 313 00:34:03,540 --> 00:34:14,120 which is in stark contrast to what I remember the EU being like 10 years ago, basically. 314 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:19,520 We asked many Europeans what they would like the EU to have achieved by 2030. 315 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:32,840 Here is what Diana showed us, Hungarian communications officer said to us personally, I would love to see more social equality in every way possible, 316 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:44,720 because for me, it looks strange that we are all Europeans in the first year, different areas where the poverty is so bad. 317 00:34:44,720 --> 00:34:59,250 I think we shouldn't allow that to be happening within the. So perhaps you could start talking about what you think the European Union should 318 00:34:59,250 --> 00:35:06,300 do with regard to employment policy and welfare and social policy in general. 319 00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:10,260 So you've stated a series of proposals. Would you like to sum those up? 320 00:35:10,260 --> 00:35:17,460 And then we could go deeper into some of them, I would say, of the end of each proposal. 321 00:35:17,460 --> 00:35:28,200 I think that the crisis has given you an opportunity to improve its social dimension with the recovery budget, 322 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:36,930 with the spending on shore leave, the cohesion spending, which has been improved through the reactor programme. 323 00:35:36,930 --> 00:35:40,950 And really it has put social issues at the forefront. 324 00:35:40,950 --> 00:35:48,810 And I think the main recommendation was that is something that the EU should seise and we should not let it go, 325 00:35:48,810 --> 00:35:54,900 that we have a foot in the door to improve the social dimension of the EU, 326 00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:58,140 that it hasn't always been the case, that it's not something we should take for granted. 327 00:35:58,140 --> 00:36:07,380 It's still something that needs fighting for because it's not always accepted in every part of the EU or by every political party. 328 00:36:07,380 --> 00:36:13,650 And so the general recommendation I take from this is that if you take the fact that Europeans in general, 329 00:36:13,650 --> 00:36:17,160 and especially young Europeans care so much about social issues, 330 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,750 the fact that social issues are so salient and pressing for so many millions of Europeans and the 331 00:36:21,750 --> 00:36:28,320 fact that there's loads of money now with this recovery budget and Jefford that the EU is doing, 332 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:33,810 then it's an opportunity that the EU should look to seise and to keep this foot in the door. 333 00:36:33,810 --> 00:36:41,280 In terms of social issues, yes. At this point, I think it might be important to highlight that in the rhetoric of leading EU politicians, 334 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:49,200 both at the EU level and at the national level. So we only looked at what was reliant on and Merkel had to say about this. 335 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:54,570 You have a lot of focus on social policy, as we all said, even more so now with the Panopto. 336 00:36:54,570 --> 00:36:58,380 But it's a very peculiar type of focus and I think they don't necessarily mean the 337 00:36:58,380 --> 00:37:03,630 same thing that young Europeans mean or the general population needs about this, 338 00:37:03,630 --> 00:37:10,800 because, of course, the rhetoric of politicians social policies is there, but with strings attached, I would say so. 339 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:17,460 Even when the covid-19 recovery fund was announced, of course, a huge triumph for super policy indeed. 340 00:37:17,460 --> 00:37:21,570 But then Underlying described it not as a short term crisis management. 341 00:37:21,570 --> 00:37:29,540 So she said that this was the term to avoid, but rather as a boost to the EU's capacity to tap into new economic opportunities. 342 00:37:29,540 --> 00:37:34,290 So this was Merkel underlined that there has been a similar rhetoric in underlined life as well. 343 00:37:34,290 --> 00:37:40,620 And then Merkel also added that this is not just a humane gesture, but a lasting investment. 344 00:37:40,620 --> 00:37:45,540 European cohesion is not just a political imperative, but also something that will pay off. 345 00:37:45,540 --> 00:37:50,310 So, yes, it is very kind of pragmatic way of talking about social policy, 346 00:37:50,310 --> 00:37:56,460 and it ties into what we have in our recommendation section about the importance of active labour market policies, 347 00:37:56,460 --> 00:38:01,050 because this seems to be as far as politicians will go in terms of social policy. 348 00:38:01,050 --> 00:38:10,410 So minimum wage and and UBI is perhaps less realistic to see a lot of progress on those fronts compared to this active labour market policies where 349 00:38:10,410 --> 00:38:20,490 states are treating their citizens more adequately for a very fluid labour market where you have to change jobs multiple times and requalify, 350 00:38:20,490 --> 00:38:30,930 retrain, sometimes at a later age. So that might be one particular kind of direction where social policy can move in the future. 351 00:38:30,930 --> 00:38:35,640 There's a theme that we've mentioned before that I think needs to be brought up again now, 352 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,870 which is the interplay between environmental and social policy, 353 00:38:39,870 --> 00:38:50,000 and it seems that you're emphasising in the chapter that the EU really needs to make these exist in harmony rather than as opposing issues. 354 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:56,930 But I wonder what you think about the hypothesis that there are significant trade offs, for example, 355 00:38:56,930 --> 00:39:04,040 the social and economic costs of carbon neutral by 2030 will be different from those of carbon emissions by 2050, 356 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:10,400 depending also, of course, on which part of Europe you live in and what the economic situation there is. 357 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:18,200 So I've really got two questions here. The first is, do you see significant trade offs between social policy and climate action? 358 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:25,700 And second, how can the EU be honest and effective in communicating what these trade offs are to 359 00:39:25,700 --> 00:39:34,820 ensure that the public is in the know while acting decisively towards both priorities? 360 00:39:34,820 --> 00:39:38,540 The two sort of trade offs dicey in terms of jobs, 361 00:39:38,540 --> 00:39:45,980 so you're going to be having jobs obsolete at some point and new industries emerging and old ones sort of dying out. 362 00:39:45,980 --> 00:39:49,280 And the other ones will be in terms of the price of energy, 363 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:55,250 because we know that the households that tend to use more fossil fuels tend to be lower income households. 364 00:39:55,250 --> 00:39:58,050 You also have this trade off geographically because, of course, 365 00:39:58,050 --> 00:40:05,990 we have many Eastern European countries that still rely on these technologies to heat their home and employ a lot of people. 366 00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:11,090 So you have this all this sort of trade offs in the short term, and we need to be honest about them. 367 00:40:11,090 --> 00:40:13,310 I mean, it's going to sound really basic. 368 00:40:13,310 --> 00:40:21,230 But one way you can compensate people and we shouldn't be shy and you shouldn't be shy saying we should give direct income support to people. 369 00:40:21,230 --> 00:40:27,110 If the times are hard, we should give them. And that's the main game of this facility, to give them direct income support, 370 00:40:27,110 --> 00:40:31,520 to subsidise transport, to developed energy efficiency, to lower the bills. 371 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:38,900 So I think the only way to overcome the trade off is with income support and investment as well. 372 00:40:38,900 --> 00:40:41,300 That being said, the communication needs also, to be honest, 373 00:40:41,300 --> 00:40:47,690 there are some legitimate worries about jobs that needs to be put in perspective with the emergency we're living in. 374 00:40:47,690 --> 00:40:56,270 We see it every every day now this summer. And I feel like this emergency really needs to be emphasised and the role that the humans have on that, 375 00:40:56,270 --> 00:41:02,210 but so that there's going to be costs and it's going to be a bit painful in the short term, 376 00:41:02,210 --> 00:41:09,030 but it can be overcome with strong, direct social policy, income support and investment spending is my feeling. 377 00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:18,140 You. Yeah, maybe just a quick point on the earlier question about the potential overlap, but also tension between green issues and social issues. 378 00:41:18,140 --> 00:41:22,970 This was not in the report because we didn't have time to delve into specific countries. 379 00:41:22,970 --> 00:41:32,870 But the example of Germany comes to mind and how the Green Party is now treating very closely Germany according to the latest polls. 380 00:41:32,870 --> 00:41:36,860 And it seems that to a very large extent, the Green Party there are, 381 00:41:36,860 --> 00:41:45,180 but also in other countries has been emerging in the place of the more conventional social leftwing option, if you like, in the country. 382 00:41:45,180 --> 00:41:49,700 So it might be a good opportunity for social policy and it might just be the case that these green 383 00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:56,930 parties will will allow voters on the on the left who normally voted for the now obsolete or declining 384 00:41:56,930 --> 00:42:02,960 conventional left wing parties to just vote for a hybrid of both green and social issues that are 385 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,860 kind of rebranding of social policy could emerge as a result of that because the voters are there. 386 00:42:07,860 --> 00:42:16,520 They still a lot of attention to social policy, just a matter of politicians actually taking that into consideration and articulating it into policy. 387 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:26,570 So within that articulation, green and social will hopefully go hand-in-hand. 388 00:42:26,570 --> 00:42:31,340 Clearly, articulating economic policy goals for the EU should be a priority, 389 00:42:31,340 --> 00:42:36,890 according to Spears Cosmetics, a lecturer in politics at the University of Oxford. 390 00:42:36,890 --> 00:42:51,170 Here what he would like the EU to have achieved by 2013. I would like the EU to build the infrastructure to protect incomes across member states. 391 00:42:51,170 --> 00:43:03,320 For those who in need economic policy, redistribution should become a clear kind of aim for the EU as a whole. 392 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:08,270 So one of the very interesting proposals you you make is that the EU funds more trials, 393 00:43:08,270 --> 00:43:16,250 especially with regard to and employment policies in different countries. Could you clarify how these funded trials would work? 394 00:43:16,250 --> 00:43:24,230 So would it be more in terms of incentivising different member states to adopt employment policies 395 00:43:24,230 --> 00:43:31,610 tailored to their circumstances and therefore just seeing what they do and then comparing results? 396 00:43:31,610 --> 00:43:36,350 Or would it be more along the lines? These are recommendations. 397 00:43:36,350 --> 00:43:43,430 We will fund this trial so long as you follow these recommendations and we expect some accountability. 398 00:43:43,430 --> 00:43:50,620 EU already has funding for This Is Easy, which funds innovative social policies. 399 00:43:50,620 --> 00:43:57,710 So one of the very basic suggestions is that this fund could be given more size and visibility, 400 00:43:57,710 --> 00:44:00,470 because I think that's one key point we make in the report. 401 00:44:00,470 --> 00:44:04,670 And that's linked to everything we've discussed, is that social policies need to be innovative. 402 00:44:04,670 --> 00:44:08,180 We're living in very challenging times with the pandemic and climate change. 403 00:44:08,180 --> 00:44:15,500 And we also know that the welfare state, many welfare state programmes were designed in the 50s around the model where, 404 00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:21,230 you know, you had the male breadwinner and then women would stop working as soon as they married. 405 00:44:21,230 --> 00:44:27,170 And a lot of programmes are still designed around that and it's very obsolete in many ways. 406 00:44:27,170 --> 00:44:33,380 So between this like sort of long run obsolescence and the sort of short runs emergency with the pandemic and climate change, 407 00:44:33,380 --> 00:44:36,860 we think that innovative social policy is more and more needed. 408 00:44:36,860 --> 00:44:44,750 And so I would say more along. The first line of what you said is that we should be trying policies in different contexts, 409 00:44:44,750 --> 00:44:50,960 innovative policies that work in local context and then share best practises and is already doing that. 410 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:59,000 So it's not a very revolutionary proposal making them, but more insisting on how important it is and that this shouldn't be a minor fund. 411 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:04,740 I think it should be in coming years, a very important friend of the year moving forward. 412 00:45:04,740 --> 00:45:12,200 So as we're talking about these recommendations that you've suggested in the chapter, 413 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:20,630 there's one interviewee whose remark reminds me of this connexion that I think is lurking behind our discussion, 414 00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:26,290 which is that between social policy and economic policy and also, I suppose. 415 00:45:26,290 --> 00:45:35,850 The relationship between public policy and what's happening in markets and this interviewee, Adolfo Nunez, says that. 416 00:45:35,850 --> 00:45:45,630 What he wants for Europe in 2030 is to be as competitive as China and the United States in the new economy, that is crucial to have better jobs, 417 00:45:45,630 --> 00:45:54,000 better paid jobs, more opportunities, and to be able to be competitive would mean that we would have a better education and a better social system. 418 00:45:54,000 --> 00:46:03,990 So I wanted to ask you, because we've talked about various aspects of social policy, including solidarity and universal basic income and minimum wage. 419 00:46:03,990 --> 00:46:11,560 But this aspect of economic competitiveness has not been highlighted in the chapter and in our discussion. 420 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:25,320 And I wonder what you think about that. Does it seem like young Europeans don't care as much as Adolpho does, or how would you make that connexion? 421 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:35,220 Yes, I'm not sure there were any polling data that we could use on will this important connexion between economic and social policy. 422 00:46:35,220 --> 00:46:42,720 But in terms of just the issue in general, in one of these social policy speeches that delivered and looked at for the record, 423 00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:45,060 even though it was technically a social policy speech, 424 00:46:45,060 --> 00:46:50,370 the French president went through it quickly from discussing actual social policies and how it's really important 425 00:46:50,370 --> 00:46:59,850 for the EU to fund more generously European Innovation Council and give it a budget on par with the United States. 426 00:46:59,850 --> 00:47:06,930 So this is also in line again with that kind of productiveness to active labour market approach that we discussed earlier. 427 00:47:06,930 --> 00:47:11,400 That is very much present in how politicians talk about social policy nowadays. 428 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:19,800 If we have a social policy so they have this trade off between economic growth and having a safety net very much at the back of their minds. 429 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:27,280 But then, of course, issues like the pandemic always remind us that you can't have growth without having the safety net, 430 00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,790 especially in an interconnected world like the one today. 431 00:47:29,790 --> 00:47:37,740 So we hope that in the future, these issues will continuously be viewed as overlapping and mutually reinforcing rather than conflicting. 432 00:47:37,740 --> 00:47:43,710 I would say in terms of economic competitiveness, as Christine mentioned, as not so much data I can think of. 433 00:47:43,710 --> 00:47:50,400 The only thing I can think of is the one that I already mentioned is when asked about how they would use a eurozone budget. 434 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:58,500 They tend to focus a lot more on solidarity and redistribution than structural reforms and reforms to make the economy more competitive. 435 00:47:58,500 --> 00:48:06,600 There's also two fairly quick one, I would say is that they would favour, just like the general population, 436 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:12,120 a fairer taxation of big firms and big tech companies, and that for them, 437 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,090 they see there is just one polling question, which I always find interesting, 438 00:48:15,090 --> 00:48:19,650 where they say that free market economy should come with a high level of social protection. 439 00:48:19,650 --> 00:48:23,700 So I feel like quite a lot for young people and a lot of Europeans. 440 00:48:23,700 --> 00:48:31,080 Increasingly, especially for young people, social policy is seen as something competitive, as something improving their competitiveness. 441 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:38,760 It's not incompatible. It's a form of social investment. And in terms of global competitiveness, I think the next big debate, 442 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:47,160 a European level and thus relates to what our interviewees said about China in the US will be about budgetary rules, 443 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:53,040 because for years we've known that DUI is very strict and tight about its budget, 444 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:57,930 except that we compete with the US and China, who they spend bottom less money. 445 00:48:57,930 --> 00:49:04,260 They're not straight with their spending, as the EU are, and in certain respects, nothing can give them a competitive advantage. 446 00:49:04,260 --> 00:49:08,070 And I know that at EU level, it's very, very hot debates. 447 00:49:08,070 --> 00:49:13,350 I'm not saying we're going to move for sure towards a change in budget rules, 448 00:49:13,350 --> 00:49:18,420 but that is definitely something that's going to be on the table and that is important for competitiveness. 449 00:49:18,420 --> 00:49:26,850 And also there's a general direction question, which is that to be competitive with the US and China, I mean, 450 00:49:26,850 --> 00:49:35,400 my view and view of some people is you need to be closer and closer to get together with a bloc of nearly five hundred millions. 451 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,600 And we can achieve a lot in terms of industrial policy and R&D. 452 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:45,390 But while we are a union, we're not completely alone yet like China and the US. 453 00:49:45,390 --> 00:49:53,650 And to me, a lot of the solutions would be closer. European integration. 454 00:49:53,650 --> 00:50:01,840 The prospect of more European unity isn't ideal for many Europeans, Alexander Borowski opposes it. 455 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,280 Specialist is one of the young Europeans who we interviewed. 456 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:11,800 Listen to what he had to say when asked about what he wants the EU to do by 2030. 457 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,840 I would like your opinion to be something more than glorified trade, 458 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:28,650 but I strongly believe in more European Union as, for example, a European Army European. 459 00:50:28,650 --> 00:50:42,300 Health care, European social system, European code of conduct, common rules and laws that apply to all member states equally, 460 00:50:42,300 --> 00:50:59,040 I believe something similar to me, the United States of America, this EU. 461 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:06,810 So how would you respond to critics of deeper integration, you know, how do you defend these solutions? 462 00:51:06,810 --> 00:51:12,510 I think it's a very good question and it's a very important point to make, especially in the U.K., right. 463 00:51:12,510 --> 00:51:22,200 As people are here and especially in the debate around Brexit, confuse sovereignty with power, wealth, development, prosperity. 464 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,920 The reason I'm saying that is that we shouldn't lie to people, 465 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:34,170 that the EU does involve states giving up a bit of its sovereignty in certain respects because you have to do things with 27 other countries. 466 00:51:34,170 --> 00:51:37,500 Also in certain areas, the EU has exclusive competence. 467 00:51:37,500 --> 00:51:44,520 But the reason we're doing that is precisely to make this country stronger because we think that we are going to be stronger doing this together, 468 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:49,770 that France is going to be more prosperous, that the Czech Republic is going to be more prosperous, Sweden is going to be more prosperous. 469 00:51:49,770 --> 00:51:57,090 And the reason I'm saying that is that in the UK debate, it always felt like in this debate about Brussels or Brussels has all the power. 470 00:51:57,090 --> 00:52:03,480 But no, it's the member states voluntarily chose to give up some of their power because they thought they would be stronger together. 471 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:10,680 And trade is an example. For instance, France and Germany cannot negotiate trade agreements on their own if the EU has exclusive competence. 472 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:15,480 But the rationale is that, you know, if you negotiate a trade deal with a bloc of 27 countries, 473 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:21,540 you can have better terms that if France went to negotiate on its own with China, Japan and Malaysia, for instance. 474 00:52:21,540 --> 00:52:30,330 So I feel this sort of. Clear communication about why we are integrating is very much needed, 475 00:52:30,330 --> 00:52:35,340 and I think it's completely lacking and often politicians in national and member states are guilty of that, 476 00:52:35,340 --> 00:52:40,380 of saying oil comes from Brussels as if it was this dark entity that was imposing its orders. 477 00:52:40,380 --> 00:52:45,930 But Brussels is the congregation of member states coming together because that's the European Council. 478 00:52:45,930 --> 00:52:51,480 It's all the heads of member states. It's a very collegial decision making in the European Parliament can block any 479 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,100 proposal that the commission makes in European Parliament is elected by people. 480 00:52:55,100 --> 00:52:59,910 And I'm saying that variance is just a click because before starting my traineeship with the EU, 481 00:52:59,910 --> 00:53:05,580 I was very proud of you, but I wasn't immune to this sort of discourse of bureaucratic. 482 00:53:05,580 --> 00:53:06,720 It's going to be anti-democratic. 483 00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:14,580 And now, having been in it, it has changed my perspective from that, because you understand a lot more what the EU is and how it processes. 484 00:53:14,580 --> 00:53:22,080 So I think clear communication on why we give you power and also incentivising the people to turn up more. 485 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:22,950 I don't know how you do that. 486 00:53:22,950 --> 00:53:28,860 The political scientist and Christian could maybe answer better, but the European Parliament actually has eyes so people should vote. 487 00:53:28,860 --> 00:53:35,310 And it's important that you vote in European elections because the European Parliament can amend laws and can block proposals from the commission. 488 00:53:35,310 --> 00:53:40,470 And it really has a say in what he said the European Union might offer. 489 00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:47,340 Right. But there was this polemic issue are not big issue, but perhaps embarrassing for the European Union, 490 00:53:47,340 --> 00:53:50,820 which was a vaccination scheme and it was very well managed, 491 00:53:50,820 --> 00:54:00,460 whereas the UK, who had some issues in dealing with the pandemic at the beginning, was in very praised worldwide for its vaccination scheme. 492 00:54:00,460 --> 00:54:06,180 So in the face of these not so successful initiatives, 493 00:54:06,180 --> 00:54:14,790 how would you again respond to critics of the EU with regard to more involvement in national employment and social policies? 494 00:54:14,790 --> 00:54:22,980 Well, I think you can have them on how specifically the short term view and the long term view, the term views that ended in March, April, 495 00:54:22,980 --> 00:54:24,840 there is no denying or February, 496 00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:33,780 December 2020 and early 2020 when there there's no denying that the UK was more successful in getting the vaccine and rolling it out. 497 00:54:33,780 --> 00:54:39,780 And it has to be remembered that health was not an EU level issue at all before this pandemic. 498 00:54:39,780 --> 00:54:43,950 It was one of the few areas that remain exclusive competence of the member states. 499 00:54:43,950 --> 00:54:50,640 So very suddenly, do you have to act in an area where they had no prior experience in doing so, 500 00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,270 which I think and partly explain why it was slightly shaky at the start to. 501 00:54:54,270 --> 00:54:57,150 I would argue now that it has been quite successful, 502 00:54:57,150 --> 00:55:04,290 if we look at it six months later and the reason I talk about the more long term perspective is, in fact, I think if anything, 503 00:55:04,290 --> 00:55:10,230 it vindicates EU action, this pandemic, because unfortunately and I don't want to be too pessimistic, 504 00:55:10,230 --> 00:55:15,270 I'm not sure it is the last of these sort of disasters that we see. 505 00:55:15,270 --> 00:55:20,220 And it has shown that there is value in acting together, even in a topic like health. 506 00:55:20,220 --> 00:55:23,730 And yes, it was a bit shaky. It was because it was the first time. 507 00:55:23,730 --> 00:55:31,230 But, you know, it's good to have coordination about where a virus might be present in the EU, coordination about how to manage borders, 508 00:55:31,230 --> 00:55:33,390 coordination about how to get vaccines, 509 00:55:33,390 --> 00:55:40,650 about how to maybe also distribute more of these vaccines to countries outside the EU, because that's also another issue. 510 00:55:40,650 --> 00:55:43,470 And it might have been a bit shaky at the start. 511 00:55:43,470 --> 00:55:49,350 But I think it's a really interesting foundation to be better able to deal collectively with these problems in the future. 512 00:55:49,350 --> 00:55:54,090 And if they might emerge, we will notice that again, we will be stronger as Europeans dealing with them. 513 00:55:54,090 --> 00:55:59,040 And so the short term perspective is that indeed, probably the UK did better in the long run. 514 00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:04,460 I think collectively will be stronger to answer to these problems. Should they re-emerge? 515 00:56:04,460 --> 00:56:09,200 And also, what was the alternative is a question we need to be asking ourselves, 516 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:14,330 do would would we have wanted to live our continent where every country would purchase 517 00:56:14,330 --> 00:56:19,310 vaccines by itself and enormous inequalities would ensue on such a life and death matter? 518 00:56:19,310 --> 00:56:25,400 Right. So the EU was instrumental to preventing that and it did prevent that kind of inequality, 519 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:29,240 even though at the cost of the slower procurement in the beginning, 520 00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:32,060 which was picked up in the meantime, of course, 521 00:56:32,060 --> 00:56:39,500 but also in terms of how democratic and how democratise the European Union is and the relevance of that for social policy. 522 00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:43,490 I mean, by most theoretical, I think, frameworks, 523 00:56:43,490 --> 00:56:49,970 the EU still very much qualifies as an intergovernmental organisation and not as a separate national organisation. 524 00:56:49,970 --> 00:56:56,150 Member states still enjoy a lot of power. A lot of issues are decided on a one country, one vote basis, 525 00:56:56,150 --> 00:57:00,920 and the veto apparatus is there for so many issues, sometimes for days, sometimes for bad. 526 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:08,090 So it's certainly not the case that nation states are powerless to stop any kind of trends in the EU that they dislike. 527 00:57:08,090 --> 00:57:14,780 So if they ever feel like social policies is too much of a focus and they can always roll it back. 528 00:57:14,780 --> 00:57:19,820 So that's one of the most valid criticism of more social policy action at the EU level, 529 00:57:19,820 --> 00:57:24,680 because it will always be at the end of the day at the discretion of both nations. 530 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:33,620 This, if I can add two things to that. First, if you actually look at the stats for the vaccine in the health aspect was a bit shambolic. 531 00:57:33,620 --> 00:57:38,150 But on the other hand, on social policy, desu was very, very reactive. 532 00:57:38,150 --> 00:57:42,410 It suspended the budgetary rules to allow member states to spend whatever they want very 533 00:57:42,410 --> 00:57:48,020 quickly implemented to show programmes of billions to finance short time work schemes. 534 00:57:48,020 --> 00:57:54,680 So I don't think you can infer too much from the difficult stuff on that front in terms of the social one. 535 00:57:54,680 --> 00:58:00,080 And I to be honest, part of it is because the EU has a lot more experience in managing funds and managing 536 00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,950 social funds and the economics of social policy and all these sort of things. 537 00:58:03,950 --> 00:58:09,980 And so they were able to react quickly and quite swiftly in that respect and to come back to the health thing. 538 00:58:09,980 --> 00:58:19,250 And again, that's a broader perspective. But I think sometimes you need to think back about what the EU is and its purpose and a lot of it. 539 00:58:19,250 --> 00:58:20,300 It's about peace, right? 540 00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:28,040 It's about peace between member states and member states, not for each other for years or decades, sometimes century coming together. 541 00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:38,390 And the reason I'm saying that is that when France was struggling with the first wave, a lot of French patients were taken care of in Germany. 542 00:58:38,390 --> 00:58:43,610 And I mean, you may want to ask a historian to confirm that, but I'm not sure this would have happened in the 30s. 543 00:58:43,610 --> 00:58:47,360 So that's also one thing that we shouldn't lose from sight. 544 00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:54,170 When we talk about the EU's solidarity between member states and nation states, it's unprecedented. 545 00:58:54,170 --> 00:59:18,490 And I think we should also be thankful for that aspect. Our guest today, William Hogan, and offers a huge thanks to our podcast editor, Billy, 546 00:59:18,490 --> 00:59:25,750 and our research manager, Louisa Miller, and our report, Ed Professor Timothy Garton Ash. 547 00:59:25,750 --> 00:59:33,810 We're also grateful to our founders, the Swedish Snowman Foundation, the type school and the system mercato for making the Europe Stories Project and 548 00:59:33,810 --> 00:59:40,360 podcast a special thank you to Ellen Leach that will restructure Maev Moynihan, 549 00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:47,560 Sophie Verité and Victoria Hansell for contributing to the podcast production music by Unicorn Heads. 550 00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:53,050 And. Finally, thank you to the whole Europe Stories Project. 551 00:59:53,050 --> 00:59:58,360 I'm your host and Martins. I'm your host. Lucasta, thank you for listening today. 552 00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:02,500 Join us for the next episode of the Europe Stories podcast and until then, 553 01:00:02,500 --> 01:00:15,974 you can find out more about our research project at European Moments Dotcom.