1 00:00:04,410 --> 00:00:11,190 Thank you so much. And as allow for the warm welcome and indeed, thank you so much for the invitation. 2 00:00:11,190 --> 00:00:22,060 It's an absolute pleasure to be here with you today. And thank you also to those who joined us today. 3 00:00:22,060 --> 00:00:26,580 Give considering the Zoome fatigue that we are all experiencing, it means a lot. 4 00:00:26,580 --> 00:00:39,230 And I hope that this will be worth your while. I'm really excited for the opportunity to share with you the case of the women in mosques in Turkey 5 00:00:39,230 --> 00:00:46,080 and what kinds of questions this case raises about women's human rights and more specifically, 6 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,020 women's rights to freedom of religion or belief, 7 00:00:49,020 --> 00:00:58,080 and how international human rights law actually deals with this kind of lesser infringements of women's rights. 8 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:06,510 My presentation is based on the draught article I'm writing for the Religion and Human Rights Journal. 9 00:01:06,510 --> 00:01:16,050 My colleague Roger Fuzzily and I are co editing a special double issue for the Religion and Human Rights Journal on Women's Religious Freedom, 10 00:01:16,050 --> 00:01:21,000 Religion and Law, which will be published in twenty twenty one. 11 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,470 So I will share my presentation with you. 12 00:01:25,470 --> 00:01:38,260 I hope this will make it more interesting. So first, a little bit about my interest in this topic. 13 00:01:38,260 --> 00:01:46,360 I have been intrigued by the women in mosques campaigns since its beginning in 2017, 14 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:58,480 not only because it seems such a brave and sincere way of engaging with a practical question that of the space allowed for women in mosques. 15 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,340 But it also spoke volumes about the place of women in mosques. 16 00:02:03,340 --> 00:02:12,760 The lived experiences of women who gave their voice to the campaign raised many questions about the relevance of human rights to this issue. 17 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:22,900 And I became interested as a researcher. The case presents a good opportunity to test the effectiveness of human rights law, 18 00:02:22,900 --> 00:02:32,230 to address what Professor Frances Red-Eye calls the lesser infringements of the lesser infringements. 19 00:02:32,230 --> 00:02:40,960 I'll come to this in a bit later in the presentation. But I'll just say briefly that the lesser infringements of women's rights based on 20 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:46,600 religious freedom arguments may be considered acceptable under human rights law, 21 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:55,780 largely relying on the autonomy of religious institutions. But it is generally accepted that this is not a blank cheque. 22 00:02:55,780 --> 00:03:01,030 But the question I'm interested in is how and to what extent international human 23 00:03:01,030 --> 00:03:09,370 rights law provides the tools to scrutinise this sphere usually afforded an autonomy. 24 00:03:09,370 --> 00:03:13,360 And since it's difficult to talk about these things in abstract, 25 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:22,150 talking about it in relation to a specific case provides lots of opportunities to learn as well. 26 00:03:22,150 --> 00:03:34,660 This is the why for this study. And some of the key points I will look at today will be a description of the women in mosques, campaign or movement. 27 00:03:34,660 --> 00:03:41,200 And briefly, we will look at the Turkish legal framework, the applicable aspects of it, 28 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:50,110 and key provisions of international human rights law and more specifically, freedom of religion and our belief and non-discrimination. 29 00:03:50,110 --> 00:03:57,080 And I will have some concluding remarks or concluding questions. 30 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:04,400 So the Web site of the women in mosques defines it as a campaign that was started 31 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:11,870 by a group of Muslim women with a view to improve the place of women in mosques. 32 00:04:11,870 --> 00:04:15,830 So I'm not including any comments in this part of the presentation. 33 00:04:15,830 --> 00:04:25,370 I'm just really relaying the information provided in the Web site and in the social media accounts, I think. 34 00:04:25,370 --> 00:04:27,950 Yeah. So since 2000, 35 00:04:27,950 --> 00:04:38,990 seventeen groups of women meet in mosques to identify the problems that women encounter in mosques and discuss what how they could be solved. 36 00:04:38,990 --> 00:04:49,190 And the goals seem to be two fold. Open the ways for women to more effectively participate in the mosque community. 37 00:04:49,190 --> 00:04:58,320 And this includes changes or problems related to physical conditions and the social environment. 38 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:06,000 And here you see a picture of a typical room that is allocated for women's prayers. 39 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,610 It's kind of a bit like a storage room. 40 00:05:10,610 --> 00:05:17,720 Also, no view. And yeah, it might be cold. 41 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:23,390 And this is this is a picture I've taken from the Twitter account of women in mosques. 42 00:05:23,390 --> 00:05:30,530 And this is a typical way of information sharing for the women in mosques. 43 00:05:30,530 --> 00:05:44,310 Members of this group that whenever they go to a mosque and see a problematic space, they posted on the Twitter account or other social media venues. 44 00:05:44,310 --> 00:05:49,230 So when it comes to the physical conditions, 45 00:05:49,230 --> 00:05:59,670 they find that the places that are allocated for women are inadequate and mostly unclean and disorderly spaces are seen fit for women, 46 00:05:59,670 --> 00:06:11,040 and not all the mosques have clean, free and open, accessible ablution rooms so needed for the ritual cleansing before the prayers. 47 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:18,600 And where the space, for example, is on the upper floor, upper levels of the mosque. 48 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:26,130 They tend to be that the stairs leading up to the room tend to be very steep and narrow and making it hard for the elderly, 49 00:06:26,130 --> 00:06:35,460 disabled and also women with children difficult to access the room, especially if they have, for example, strollers. 50 00:06:35,460 --> 00:06:41,880 And inside the mosque and the mosque community are often not cannot be seen. 51 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:47,490 And therefore, this makes it difficult for the women to feel part of the community, 52 00:06:47,490 --> 00:06:56,730 mosque community and enjoy actually the beautiful whole prayer hole that the men are enjoying. 53 00:06:56,730 --> 00:07:05,460 And yet here again in the picture, you can see how it is very much a limited view indeed. 54 00:07:05,460 --> 00:07:15,510 And they are also saying that the social environment is problematic and needs improvement in Turkey, in the mosques. 55 00:07:15,510 --> 00:07:27,210 There is usually private security personnel present and they can limit the movement of the women in mosque, for example. 56 00:07:27,210 --> 00:07:36,690 They can tell them not to stand here, not to move there, not to talk here and sit there or go to this specific place. 57 00:07:36,690 --> 00:07:45,270 And so there are times to move within the mosque or see the main assembly hall are often countered with 58 00:07:45,270 --> 00:07:56,430 insults or harsh reactions by the man their for their prayers or by the imam or by the security staff. 59 00:07:56,430 --> 00:08:07,140 And this as a result, the women feel uneasy in worship and they feel excluded from the mosque community. 60 00:08:07,140 --> 00:08:13,590 And the their demands. They have very specific demands. 61 00:08:13,590 --> 00:08:27,120 They would like to see that they move the offices, which are thus as responsible for the administration of a mob of mosques in a given city. 62 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:32,650 They would like the mufti offices to create a centralised complaints mechanism. 63 00:08:32,650 --> 00:08:37,830 They would like to see the mosque staff trained about these issues, 64 00:08:37,830 --> 00:08:47,970 and they would like to see the reorganisation of the mosques physical capacity for to accommodate the whole mosque community, 65 00:08:47,970 --> 00:08:59,610 obviously, which includes them. And they would like to see the rebuilding of a mosque culture that is inclusive and that a dialogue is 66 00:08:59,610 --> 00:09:07,910 started with those who feel that they are treated unfairly and that they also become a part of the. 67 00:09:07,910 --> 00:09:18,710 Solution in their third year. They have already had a number of meetings with different Mufti's and also with the presidency of religious affairs, 68 00:09:18,710 --> 00:09:29,180 which is responsible for all the mosques in Turkey, and they have been collecting the complaints and also archiving the experiences of women. 69 00:09:29,180 --> 00:09:35,120 And they are in the process of creating a Web site where women can review 70 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:44,780 different mosques and give them points in relation to the very different aspects. 71 00:09:44,780 --> 00:09:54,590 So a few observations. The Women in Masks campaign. 72 00:09:54,590 --> 00:09:59,150 The demands. They don't really include demand to pray in. 73 00:09:59,150 --> 00:10:07,280 For example, a mixed group of men and women. Or they don't demand to see female imams. 74 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:19,010 So actually, their demands are very specific and very much in line with the theological framework that's usually accepted in in Turkey. 75 00:10:19,010 --> 00:10:24,860 That is, men and women pray in separate, separate sections of the mosque. 76 00:10:24,860 --> 00:10:30,200 Yet they still felt the need for this campaign. 77 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:37,070 And the campaign indeed was met with mixed reactions. 78 00:10:37,070 --> 00:10:41,180 According to the women in mosques Web sites, 79 00:10:41,180 --> 00:10:53,600 thousands of women interacted with them and said that these demands actually also resonate with them and that they should have shown solidarity. 80 00:10:53,600 --> 00:11:02,190 But they also have been criticised a lot. 81 00:11:02,190 --> 00:11:13,470 For me, it's interesting to observe that this kind of social activism is coming from within religious community. 82 00:11:13,470 --> 00:11:21,390 And it's very much based on religious arguments and a general reference to justice. 83 00:11:21,390 --> 00:11:29,610 And also in. And many of the articles that one finds on the Web site, 84 00:11:29,610 --> 00:11:40,950 arguments for the women's presence in the mosques is related to the social standing of women in every other aspect of social life. 85 00:11:40,950 --> 00:11:52,980 So they would say that women are already present in every aspect of life outside of the mosque and they should also be present in the mosque. 86 00:11:52,980 --> 00:12:02,820 And there is no explicit reference to the international human rights law framework and also the when the members have not made any complaints, 87 00:12:02,820 --> 00:12:12,090 have not actually utilised any of the national or international legal remedies. 88 00:12:12,090 --> 00:12:23,740 And this I was really curious about this because I thought that actually utilising a human rights. 89 00:12:23,740 --> 00:12:36,270 Discourse would strengthen their case. And when I try to understand why this was not the case and I spoke to more. 90 00:12:36,270 --> 00:12:43,570 Close, closer observers to the movement. This is what I understand. 91 00:12:43,570 --> 00:12:50,230 First of all, they may not be very familiar with international human rights law framework, 92 00:12:50,230 --> 00:13:04,090 and thus it's not within their framework of reference and they may not know the international human rights compliance control mechanisms, 93 00:13:04,090 --> 00:13:15,640 how they work. So they are not utilising them. But also, I understand that actually utilising this kind of discourse could involve some risks. 94 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:23,590 And this relates to the alienating factor of international law references. 95 00:13:23,590 --> 00:13:32,860 They find that this. As far as I understand, it may lead to more accusations they might receive from their critics. 96 00:13:32,860 --> 00:13:40,350 It would be like, oh, this. This group is complaining about us to Europe or to western areas. 97 00:13:40,350 --> 00:13:47,570 So there is kind of this possibility of being accused. 98 00:13:47,570 --> 00:13:55,150 And they also find that maybe this arguing for the women's presence, 99 00:13:55,150 --> 00:14:02,590 equal presence in the mosques with through religious arguments could fill a void because often secular 100 00:14:02,590 --> 00:14:09,820 women's groups are using international human rights references for the case of women's rights. 101 00:14:09,820 --> 00:14:19,630 But it is rare to find that religious arguments are actually put forward for these kinds of issues. 102 00:14:19,630 --> 00:14:25,740 And they feel that in that sense, they might be actually filling a void. 103 00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:38,280 I can talk a little bit more about the reactions to this group if that comes up in the questions, but now I'll move on to the national law. 104 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:45,420 So in Turkey. We have a constitutional protection of freedom, of religion or belief. 105 00:14:45,420 --> 00:14:52,680 And also, this right is protected is through various provisions in the legislation. 106 00:14:52,680 --> 00:15:04,950 The principle of equality before law is protected under Article 10 and Article 24 protects the rights to freedom of conscience and religion. 107 00:15:04,950 --> 00:15:15,390 Although the provision in our Constitution is much more narrowly defined in comparison to, 108 00:15:15,390 --> 00:15:20,160 for example, Article nine of the European Convention of Human Rights. 109 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:31,100 In the recent years, the Constitutional Court has said that the provision will be interpreted in in line with the European Convention on Human Rights. 110 00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:46,770 So it's it actually affords protection to a fairly broad range of activities or acts of worship or acts of teaching and observance and practise. 111 00:15:46,770 --> 00:15:54,980 And also in the Turkish constitution provides. 112 00:15:54,980 --> 00:16:05,640 Well, under the Turkish constitution, Article nine, international human rights treaty provisions supersede national law wherever there is a conflict. 113 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:12,660 The presidency of religious affairs is on the books. 114 00:16:12,660 --> 00:16:20,520 Is the constitutionally established public body, which administers all mosques in Turkey. 115 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:31,440 It has its own law. And currently, as of end of 2019, there are eighty nine thousand two hundred fifty nine mosques. 116 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:43,020 And all mosques have to be administered by the presidents of religious affairs and also under Turkish criminal code. 117 00:16:43,020 --> 00:16:51,330 Article one 115. It's a criminal offence to prevent individuals, individual or collective worship, 118 00:16:51,330 --> 00:17:00,000 by force or threat or any other unlawful means that would result in prison sentence. 119 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:08,670 And it's also a criminal offence to interfere in and attempt to change the lifestyle once lifestyle emanating from their beliefs, 120 00:17:08,670 --> 00:17:27,050 thoughts and or convictions. So we see a national protection provided for freedom of worship for everyone looking at international provisions. 121 00:17:27,050 --> 00:17:37,730 Of course, the first and most fundamental principle to start with is the right to freedom of religion or belief is everyone's rights, 122 00:17:37,730 --> 00:17:43,340 including women, men, LGBTI plus persons or children. 123 00:17:43,340 --> 00:17:53,860 And when this right is restricted, all infringements must be justified in order to be permissible. 124 00:17:53,860 --> 00:18:00,920 So when restricting human rights, when restrictions on human rights are scrutinised, 125 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:13,790 provisions related to restrictions need to be applied to both states and religious or belief groups if they have regulatory powers. 126 00:18:13,790 --> 00:18:28,220 And it's also important to mention Sedol and articles one and two, the Convention on Elimination of All Kinds of Discrimination Against Women. 127 00:18:28,220 --> 00:18:36,200 Article one describes discrimination in Article two provides measures policy measures that states 128 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:45,830 need to take in a wide range of areas in order to ensure women are not discriminated against. 129 00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:56,150 Here, I would like to refer to a number of developments that have taken place in the last few years, 130 00:18:56,150 --> 00:19:06,890 looking closer to the interaction between religious freedom, religion, women's rights. 131 00:19:06,890 --> 00:19:22,070 So this great report written by Mozilla Women and Religious Freedom actually makes the distinction of harmful practises and lesser infringements. 132 00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:35,930 So on the one hand, we know that freedom of religion or belief cannot be used as an argumentation to to continue with harmful practises. 133 00:19:35,930 --> 00:19:40,610 So this will not be acceptable under international human rights law. 134 00:19:40,610 --> 00:19:51,440 And today, our case doesn't really deal with harmful practises, but more with what Frances Red-Eye refers to as lesser infringements. 135 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:58,010 So can freedom of religion or belief be used as the basis for violating other, 136 00:19:58,010 --> 00:20:04,460 less extreme rights to women's equality, for example, in relation to women's access to places of worship? 137 00:20:04,460 --> 00:20:15,080 Women's roles within religious communities are personal status codes that restrict their equality or obligatory dress codes, for example. 138 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:22,640 And this this is the area that interests me. 139 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:35,490 So the the women in mosques, the demands and the problems that the members of the women in mosques encounter, if they were to become a legal question. 140 00:20:35,490 --> 00:20:39,530 This is the area that they would be located in. 141 00:20:39,530 --> 00:20:46,970 So they would be considered this lesser infringements of their freedom of religion or belief. 142 00:20:46,970 --> 00:20:51,980 So how to scrutinise lesser infringements? 143 00:20:51,980 --> 00:20:56,150 This this is this is the question. 144 00:20:56,150 --> 00:21:07,550 And I looked at the two reports published by the UN Special Rapporteur is the one in 2013. 145 00:21:07,550 --> 00:21:17,390 By the then special rapporteur, Hina Bielefeld looked at freedom of religion or belief and equality between men and women. 146 00:21:17,390 --> 00:21:25,580 And when in his report, he looks at these kinds of questions, the kinds of questions that we are dealing with. 147 00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:34,940 The key interpretive into two tools seemed to be autonomy of a religious institution. 148 00:21:34,940 --> 00:21:44,570 So states cannot interfere in the autonomy of religious institutions so they can determine how the internal affairs are ordered, 149 00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:53,540 which also includes, obviously, how worship is structured and the rights to dissent. 150 00:21:53,540 --> 00:22:02,420 So everyone should have the right to dissent, to the practises within the religious community. 151 00:22:02,420 --> 00:22:08,090 And the state has a responsibility to protect the dissenters. 152 00:22:08,090 --> 00:22:20,630 And the other related responsibilities to protect the rights of the dissenters, to establish a new or religious new religious, our belief communities. 153 00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:26,000 But beyond that, 154 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:37,850 it appeared that the autonomy sphere seemed fairly broad in the two thousand twenty report of the UN Special Rapporteur Ahmed Shaheed. 155 00:22:37,850 --> 00:22:42,770 A look at freedom of religion or belief and gender equality, 156 00:22:42,770 --> 00:22:56,990 and building up on the 2013 report and adding that when this dissenting is not so straightforward, 157 00:22:56,990 --> 00:23:05,690 it can be it can have very detrimental effects on people who are dissenting or who will have to leave, 158 00:23:05,690 --> 00:23:09,950 or their only option if their only option is to leave the religious community. 159 00:23:09,950 --> 00:23:14,570 This is not a very clean cut solution to the problem. 160 00:23:14,570 --> 00:23:26,840 So while not really providing a very practical way of dealing with such situations, 161 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:32,960 the special rapporteur emphasises that the rights of individuals should be protected even within the groups. 162 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:38,090 By creating an enabling environment where dissenters are protected against 163 00:23:38,090 --> 00:23:44,380 incitement to violence and are able to assert their agency through the exercise of. 164 00:23:44,380 --> 00:23:49,990 Fundamental human rights, which includes all the range of human rights, 165 00:23:49,990 --> 00:23:58,930 basically including freedom of religion or belief and freedom of expression and freedom from coercion. 166 00:23:58,930 --> 00:24:13,200 So how to how to apply this to the case at hand? 167 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:19,440 This is my last slide, and I am not. 168 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:27,600 I am not offering us solution here, but I'm maybe offering different questions. 169 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,850 So these interpretive tools, which I mentioned, amongst others, autonomy, right. 170 00:24:32,850 --> 00:24:48,540 To exit protection of dissenters. How would they apply to the case of women in mosques if it were to become a legal case? 171 00:24:48,540 --> 00:24:57,600 And also, what does the case of the women in mosques demonstrate in terms of the nature of these tools? 172 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:05,450 Yeah. What does it say about the tools that we have? Are they adequate and practical? 173 00:25:05,450 --> 00:25:17,750 There are certainly some safeguards, but also I think the case raises some questions or similar cases as raise important questions. 174 00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:27,200 First, I would like to highlight the impact of the of the general measures that states have 175 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:34,420 to take in order to eliminate discrimination against women in every area of life. 176 00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:44,150 So which comes from the set? Said all Article two, because as I said before, 177 00:25:44,150 --> 00:25:53,970 the women in mosques members often referred to be women being present in every social area of life outside of the mosque. 178 00:25:53,970 --> 00:25:57,830 So they see them in the workplace. They see them in the parliament. 179 00:25:57,830 --> 00:26:02,690 They see them in in the school everywhere outside. 180 00:26:02,690 --> 00:26:08,120 So there is a certain freedom that women have achieved outside of the mosque. 181 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:15,050 And this this, in a way, it seems to me, trickles down or permits to the religious sphere. 182 00:26:15,050 --> 00:26:26,930 So it's it has an impact on the religious sphere without being directly related to the religious sphere. 183 00:26:26,930 --> 00:26:31,190 So that that is one thing that's it seems important to me. 184 00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:41,420 Secondly, states have the obligation to protect everyone's right to worship, including access to places of worship. 185 00:26:41,420 --> 00:26:52,340 And if there is a different treatment, this whether this can be objectively justified, this needs to be shown by states. 186 00:26:52,340 --> 00:27:00,350 So if there is an obstacle before women accessing places of worship. 187 00:27:00,350 --> 00:27:08,290 This is not automatically. This would not be seen in the sphere of autonomy of the religious institution, 188 00:27:08,290 --> 00:27:15,830 but that there needs to be some questions that need to be asked to show why this is the case. 189 00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:24,880 And this is particularly important in the case of Turkey, I think, because in Turkey, the present. 190 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:36,680 Over the places of worship. So the state responsibility is even more in in the case of Turkey because it is Knot's. 191 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:47,660 Solely up to the religious communities to determine how individuals or groups access the place of worship. 192 00:27:47,660 --> 00:28:00,820 So. There is these tensions about access to places of worship may be explained by theological considerations about women's 193 00:28:00,820 --> 00:28:09,460 place in a mosque and their role in the mosque community between those who have regulatory powers and the dust, 194 00:28:09,460 --> 00:28:14,470 those who dissent to to their position. 195 00:28:14,470 --> 00:28:24,940 So both of them. The last report of the UN special rapporteur refers to autonomy of religious institutions. 196 00:28:24,940 --> 00:28:36,840 But I, I would like to say that actually none of the human rights treaties or provisions refer to autonomy of religious institutions. 197 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:44,470 The the Human Rights Committee's general comment 22 refers to freedom in the entire internal 198 00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:56,770 affairs of internal affairs and freedoms related to Inter Grill acts integral to worship. 199 00:28:56,770 --> 00:29:08,800 So I would refrain from extensively using the term autonomy of religious institutions, which which sounds a bit rigid to me. 200 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:14,940 I would like to question that and ask whose autonomy we are talking about. 201 00:29:14,940 --> 00:29:20,980 It would be more helpful to look at the autonomy of the community and who actually makes up the community. 202 00:29:20,980 --> 00:29:28,840 So maybe a bit more scrutiny about the concept of autonomy would help. 203 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:40,870 In. Is scrutinising the legitimacy of the infringements and protecting the dissidents. 204 00:29:40,870 --> 00:29:48,010 Obviously, this is a very strong safeguard coming from the international human rights provisions. 205 00:29:48,010 --> 00:29:55,030 They need to be protected against physical harm, bullying, insults and threats. 206 00:29:55,030 --> 00:29:59,290 And the rights to exit needs to be looked at more closely. 207 00:29:59,290 --> 00:30:05,470 And this is what I think the latest report of the U.N. special rapporteur is highlighting, 208 00:30:05,470 --> 00:30:17,230 that this is not seen as a very clean solution as it's it's it seems in theory there is a positive 209 00:30:17,230 --> 00:30:24,070 obligation on the states to ensure that this positive possibility is a safe possibility. 210 00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:31,750 And, of course, training of religious personnel is also an. 211 00:30:31,750 --> 00:30:42,340 Especially in the case of chart. Turkey is an important one because, again, all the imams are trained by that and the public institutions. 212 00:30:42,340 --> 00:30:49,060 So there is also a greater positive obligation on the Turkish authorities to 213 00:30:49,060 --> 00:30:59,830 ensure that they they do not endorse any bullying or insults against dissidents. 214 00:30:59,830 --> 00:31:05,200 And they understand the gender dimension of freedom, of religion or belief. 215 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:14,650 And finally, I would like to point to the procedural aspects of decision making within religious communities. 216 00:31:14,650 --> 00:31:26,400 And here what I mean is when we look at the different cases and here I'm looking at the women in mosques group, 217 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:39,850 it's it's possible to see that actually there are ways of participation for women in the administration of mosques, 218 00:31:39,850 --> 00:31:44,200 which is disconnected from their religious authority. 219 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:53,740 For example, all of the mosques have associations which take care of the mosque or are responsible for the physical spaces. 220 00:31:53,740 --> 00:32:08,980 And this is not necessarily all I'm not saying it's totally secular institution, but it is distinct from the religious authority. 221 00:32:08,980 --> 00:32:12,160 And women can be represented in these associations. 222 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:24,490 So that might be, for example, one other way off, including women's voices and demands in the running of place of worship, 223 00:32:24,490 --> 00:32:32,920 which then has an impact on the social environment. The worship takes place. 224 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:47,410 As I said, maybe I'm not answering the whole I'm not solving the whole puzzle, but I am just raising some more questions about. 225 00:32:47,410 --> 00:32:54,940 The way autonomy is granted to religious institutions. 226 00:32:54,940 --> 00:33:05,470 Maybe this is not so clear in the international human rights provisions that protect freedom of religion or belief for all. 227 00:33:05,470 --> 00:33:11,980 Thank you so much for your attention. And over to Nancy. 228 00:33:11,980 --> 00:33:13,180 Thank you, man. 229 00:33:13,180 --> 00:33:26,080 This theme of protest within a religious framework is one that has come up in in various guises in the seminars we've had over the last 10 years. 230 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:32,200 You perhaps? Yes. The puzzle remains because the puzzle has different solutions and approaches, 231 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:38,860 and each of them has costs and benefits and a variety of audiences and allies. 232 00:33:38,860 --> 00:33:42,910 But it's indeed a very intriguing and interesting case. 233 00:33:42,910 --> 00:33:50,400 Thank you so much. I mean, I think just the sheer numbers of participants from so many continents speaks to how much we 234 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:56,410 appreciated your topic and the way in which you were able to engage us and how you present it. 235 00:33:56,410 --> 00:34:03,240 It's also interesting that we have a very coherent theme through this this term and our seminars. 236 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,150 So on the 18th of November, also Wednesday at two o'clock. 237 00:34:07,150 --> 00:34:11,920 You're very welcome to join Benjaman. Who also asked the question? 238 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:19,720 Benjamin will be addressing God does not discriminate. Inclusive mosque politics in France and the UK. 239 00:34:19,720 --> 00:34:21,550 So I hope you all be able to join us. 240 00:34:21,550 --> 00:34:31,480 And I hope you'll you'll join a virtual clap of appreciation for Mina and a virtual having a cup of coffee together after the talk. 241 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,620 Thank you so much, me. Thank you, everybody, for your active participation. 242 00:34:36,620 --> 00:34:44,623 And take care. Thank you very much.