1 00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:06,960 Thank you so much. And as Elaph for the warm welcome and indeed, thank you so much for the invitation. 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:14,760 It's an absolute pleasure to be here with you today. And thank you also to those who joined us today. 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:21,930 Considering the Zoome fatigue that we are all experiencing, it means a lot and I hope that this will be worth your while. 4 00:00:21,930 --> 00:00:28,440 I'm really excited for the opportunity to share with you the case of the women in mosques in Turkey 5 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:34,860 and what kinds of questions this case raises about women's human rights and more specifically, 6 00:00:34,860 --> 00:00:39,630 women's rights to freedom of religion or belief and how international human rights 7 00:00:39,630 --> 00:00:46,350 law actually deals with this kind of lesser infringements of women's rights. 8 00:00:46,350 --> 00:00:53,820 My presentation is based on the draught article I'm writing for the Religion and Human Rights Journal. 9 00:00:53,820 --> 00:01:02,880 My colleague Roger Fuzzily and I are co editing a special double issue for the Religion and Human Rights Journal on Women's Religious Freedom, 10 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:07,620 Religion and Law, which will be published in twenty twenty one. 11 00:01:07,620 --> 00:01:11,610 So I will share my presentation with you. 12 00:01:11,610 --> 00:01:18,120 I hope this will make it more interesting. So first, a little bit about my interest in this topic. 13 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:25,830 I have been intrigued by the women in mosques campaigns since its beginning in 2017, 14 00:01:25,830 --> 00:01:36,960 not only because it seems such a brave and sincere way of engaging with a practical question that of the space allowed for women in mosques. 15 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:41,820 But it also spoke volumes about the place of women in mosques. 16 00:01:41,820 --> 00:01:51,120 The lived experiences of women who gave their wives to the campaign raised many questions about the relevance of human rights to this issue. 17 00:01:51,120 --> 00:02:00,840 And I became interested as a researcher. The case presents a good opportunity to test the effectiveness of human rights law to address 18 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:08,040 what Professor Frances Red-Eye calls the lesser infringements of the lesser infringements. 19 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:16,800 I'll come to this in a bit later in the presentation. But I'll just say briefly that the lesser infringements of women's rights based on 20 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:22,440 religious freedom arguments may be considered acceptable under human rights law, 21 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:31,590 largely relying on the autonomy of religious institutions. But it is generally accepted that this is not a blank cheque. 22 00:02:31,590 --> 00:02:36,870 But the question I am interested in is how and to what extent international human 23 00:02:36,870 --> 00:02:45,180 rights law provides the tools to scrutinise this sphere usually afforded an autonomy. 24 00:02:45,180 --> 00:02:48,660 And since it's difficult to talk about these things in abstract, 25 00:02:48,660 --> 00:02:56,130 talking about it in relation to a specific case provides lots of opportunities to learn. 26 00:02:56,130 --> 00:03:00,030 So this is the why for this study. 27 00:03:00,030 --> 00:03:08,220 And some of the key points I will look at today will be a description of the women in mosques, campaign or movement. 28 00:03:08,220 --> 00:03:14,760 And briefly, we will look at the Turkish legal framework, the applicable aspects of it, 29 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:23,130 and key provisions of international human rights law and more specifically, freedom of religion or belief and non-discrimination. 30 00:03:23,130 --> 00:03:28,480 And I will have some concluding remarks or concluding questions. 31 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:35,410 So the Web site of the women in mosques defines it as a campaign that was started 32 00:03:35,410 --> 00:03:42,890 by a group of Muslim women with a view to improve the place of women in mosques. 33 00:03:42,890 --> 00:03:46,860 So I'm not including any comments in this part of the presentation. 34 00:03:46,860 --> 00:03:54,540 I'm just really relaying the information provided in the Web site and in the social media accounts. 35 00:03:54,540 --> 00:04:06,950 So since 2000, 17 groups of women meet in mosques to identify the problems that women encounter in mosques and discuss what how they could be solved. 36 00:04:06,950 --> 00:04:16,730 And the goals seem to be twofold. Open the ways for women to more effectively participate in the mosque community. 37 00:04:16,730 --> 00:04:25,530 And this includes changes or problems related to physical conditions and the social environment. 38 00:04:25,530 --> 00:04:33,150 And here you see a picture of a typical room that is allocated for women's prayers. 39 00:04:33,150 --> 00:04:37,160 It's kind of a bit like a storage room. 40 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:42,600 Also no view. And yeah, it might be cold. 41 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,810 And this is this is a picture I've taken from the Twitter account of women in mosques. 42 00:04:47,810 --> 00:04:53,240 And this is a typical way of information sharing for the women in mosques. 43 00:04:53,240 --> 00:05:05,440 Members of this group that whenever they go to mosque and see a problematic space they posted on the Twitter account or other social media venues. 44 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,790 So when it comes to the physical conditions, 45 00:05:09,790 --> 00:05:20,230 they find that the places that are allocated for women are inadequate and mostly unclean and disorderly spaces are seen fit for women, 46 00:05:20,230 --> 00:05:26,650 and not all the mosques have clean, free and open accessible ablution rooms. 47 00:05:26,650 --> 00:05:36,570 So needed for the ritual cleansing before the prayers. And where the space, for example, is on the upper floor, upper levels of the mosque, 48 00:05:36,570 --> 00:05:44,130 they tend to be the stairs leading up to the room, tend to be very steep and narrow and making it hard for the elderly, 49 00:05:44,130 --> 00:05:49,890 disabled and also women with children difficult to access the room, especially if they have, 50 00:05:49,890 --> 00:05:57,780 for example, strollers and inside the mosque and the mosque community are often not cannot be seen. 51 00:05:57,780 --> 00:06:02,880 And therefore, this makes it difficult for the women to feel part of the community, 52 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:11,400 mosque community and enjoy actually the beautiful whole prayer hole that the men are enjoying. 53 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:19,380 And yet here again in the picture, you can see how it is very much a limited view indeed. 54 00:06:19,380 --> 00:06:28,830 And they are also saying that the social environment is problematic and needs improvement in Turkey, in the mosques. 55 00:06:28,830 --> 00:06:38,880 There is usually private security personnel present and they can limit the movement of the women in mosque, for example. 56 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:48,750 They can tell them not to stand here, not to move there, not to talk here and sit there or go to this specific place. 57 00:06:48,750 --> 00:06:55,440 So there are times to move within the mosque or see the main assembly hall are often countered with 58 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:05,610 insults or harsh reactions by the man their for their prayers or by the imam or by the security staff. 59 00:07:05,610 --> 00:07:17,160 And this as a result, the women feel uneasy in worship and they feel excluded from the mosque community and they have very specific demands. 60 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:28,200 They would like to see that the mufti offices, which are thus responsible for the administration of a mosque off mosques in a given city, 61 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:33,630 they would like the mufti offices to create a centralised complaints mechanism. 62 00:07:33,630 --> 00:07:38,820 They would like to see the mosque staff trained about these issues, 63 00:07:38,820 --> 00:07:48,270 and they would like to see the reorganisation of the mosques physical capacity to accommodate the whole mosque community, 64 00:07:48,270 --> 00:07:58,940 obviously, which includes them. And they would like to see the rebuilding of a mosque culture that is inclusive and that a dialogue 65 00:07:58,940 --> 00:08:07,310 is started with those who feel that they are treated unfairly and that they also become part of the. 66 00:08:07,310 --> 00:08:17,900 Solution in their third year. They have already had a number of meetings with different Mufti's and also with the presidency of religious affairs, 67 00:08:17,900 --> 00:08:28,370 which is responsible for all the mosques in Turkey, and they have been collecting the complaints and also archiving the experiences of women. 68 00:08:28,370 --> 00:08:33,350 And they are in the process of creating a Web site where women can review 69 00:08:33,350 --> 00:08:42,630 different mosques and give them points in relation to the very different aspects. 70 00:08:42,630 --> 00:08:49,810 So a few observations. The Women in Mosques campaign. 71 00:08:49,810 --> 00:08:54,370 The demands they don't really include and demand to pray in. 72 00:08:54,370 --> 00:09:01,810 For example, a mixed group of men and women. Or they don't demand to see female imams. 73 00:09:01,810 --> 00:09:12,610 So actually, their demands are very specific and very much in line with the theological framework that's usually accepted in in Turkey. 74 00:09:12,610 --> 00:09:17,560 That is, men and women pray in separate, separate sections of the mosque. 75 00:09:17,560 --> 00:09:22,480 Yet they still felt the need for this campaign. 76 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:31,630 And the campaign indeed was met with mixed reactions, according to the women in mosques Web sites. 77 00:09:31,630 --> 00:09:42,730 Thousands of women interacted with them and said that these demands actually also resonate with them and that they should have shown solidarity. 78 00:09:42,730 --> 00:09:48,930 But they also have been criticised a lot. 79 00:09:48,930 --> 00:09:58,500 For me, it's interesting to observe that this kind of social activism is coming from within religious community. 80 00:09:58,500 --> 00:10:06,390 And it's very much based on religious arguments and a general reference to justice. 81 00:10:06,390 --> 00:10:12,870 And also in. And many of the articles that one finds on the Web site, 82 00:10:12,870 --> 00:10:22,530 arguments for the women's presence in the mosques is related to the social standing of women in every other aspect of social life. 83 00:10:22,530 --> 00:10:34,230 So they would say that women are already present in every aspect of life outside of the mosque and they should also be present in the mosque. 84 00:10:34,230 --> 00:10:44,070 And there is no explicit reference to the international human rights law framework and also the when the members have not made any complaints, 85 00:10:44,070 --> 00:10:51,810 have not actually utilised any of the national or international legal remedies. 86 00:10:51,810 --> 00:11:03,440 And this I was really curious about this because I thought that actually utilising human rights. 87 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,140 Discourse would strengthen their case. 88 00:11:06,140 --> 00:11:18,380 And when I try to understand why this was not the case and I spoke to more closer observers to the movement, this is what I understand. 89 00:11:18,380 --> 00:11:28,850 First of all, they may not be very familiar with international human rights law framework, and thus it's not within their framework of reference. 90 00:11:28,850 --> 00:11:35,550 And they may not know the international human rights compliance control mechanisms, how they work. 91 00:11:35,550 --> 00:11:45,830 So they are not utilising them. But also, I understand that actually utilising this kind of discourse could involve some risks. 92 00:11:45,830 --> 00:11:52,940 And this relates to the alienating factor of international law references. 93 00:11:52,940 --> 00:12:02,230 They find that this. As far as I understand that it may lead to more accusations they might receive from their critics. 94 00:12:02,230 --> 00:12:09,310 It would be like, oh, this. This group is complaining about us to Europe or to western areas. 95 00:12:09,310 --> 00:12:14,890 So it there is kind of this possibility of being accused. 96 00:12:14,890 --> 00:12:20,890 And they also find that maybe this arguing for the women's presence, 97 00:12:20,890 --> 00:12:27,880 equal presence in the mosques with through religious arguments could fill a void because often secular 98 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:34,750 women's groups are using international human rights references for the case of women's rights. 99 00:12:34,750 --> 00:12:43,120 But it is rare to find that religious arguments are actually put forward for these kinds of issues. 100 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:48,530 And they feel that in that sense, they might be actually filling a void. 101 00:12:48,530 --> 00:12:59,540 I can talk a little bit more about the reactions to this group if that comes up in the questions, but now I'll move on to the national law. 102 00:12:59,540 --> 00:13:04,760 So in Turkey, we have our constitutional protection of freedom of religion or belief. 103 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:11,210 And also this right is protected it through various provisions in the legislation. 104 00:13:11,210 --> 00:13:22,130 The principle of equality before law is protected under Article 10 and Article 24 protects the rights to freedom of conscience and religion. 105 00:13:22,130 --> 00:13:30,470 Although the provision in our Constitution is much more narrowly defined in comparison to, 106 00:13:30,470 --> 00:13:35,120 for example, Article nine of the European Convention of Human Rights. 107 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:45,750 In the recent years, the Constitutional Court has said that the provision will be interpreted in in line with the European Convention on Human Rights. 108 00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:58,430 So it's it actually affords protection to fairly broad range of activities or acts of worship or acts of teaching and observance and practise. 109 00:13:58,430 --> 00:14:07,050 And also in the Turkish constitution provides well, under the Turkish constitution, Article nine, 110 00:14:07,050 --> 00:14:14,060 international human rights treaty provisions supersede national law wherever there is a conflict. 111 00:14:14,060 --> 00:14:23,840 The presidency of religious affairs is the constitutionally established public body which administers all mosques in Turkey. 112 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:33,740 It has its own law. And currently, as of end of 2019, there are eighty nine thousand two hundred fifty nine mosques. 113 00:14:33,740 --> 00:14:43,100 And all mosques have to be administered by the presidents of religious affairs and also under Turkish criminal code. 114 00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:50,810 Article one 115. It's a criminal offence to prevent individuals, individual or collective worship, 115 00:14:50,810 --> 00:14:58,040 by force or threat or any other unlawful means that would result in prison sentence. 116 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:06,710 And it's also a criminal offence to interfere in and attempt to change the lifestyle once lifestyle emanating from their beliefs, 117 00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:18,050 thoughts or convictions. So we see a national protection provided for freedom of worship for everyone. 118 00:15:18,050 --> 00:15:21,770 Looking at international provisions, of course, 119 00:15:21,770 --> 00:15:29,960 the first and most fundamental principle to start with is the right to freedom of religion or belief is everyone's rights, 120 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:35,540 including women, men, LGBTI plus persons or children. 121 00:15:35,540 --> 00:15:44,920 And when this right is restricted, all infringements must be justified in order to be permissible. 122 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,280 So when restrictions on human rights are scrutinised, 123 00:15:49,280 --> 00:16:00,380 provisions related to restrictions need to be applied to both states and religious or belief groups if they have regulatory powers. 124 00:16:00,380 --> 00:16:12,320 And it's also important to mention, say, doll and articles one and two, the Convention on Elimination of All Kinds of Discrimination Against Women. 125 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,160 Article one describes discrimination in Article two, 126 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:27,880 provides policy measures that states need to take in a wide range of areas in order to ensure women are not discriminated against. 127 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:38,230 Here, I would like to refer to a number of developments that have taken place in the last few years, 128 00:16:38,230 --> 00:16:45,850 looking closer to the interaction between religious freedom, religion, women's rights. 129 00:16:45,850 --> 00:17:00,550 So this great report written by Mozilla Women and Religious Freedom actually makes the distinction of harmful practises and lesser infringements. 130 00:17:00,550 --> 00:17:11,080 So on the one hand, we know that freedom of religion or belief cannot be used as an argumentation to continue with harmful practises. 131 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:15,760 So this will not be acceptable under international human rights law. 132 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:25,810 And today, our case doesn't really deal with harmful practises, but more with what Frances Red-Eye refers to as lesser infringements. 133 00:17:25,810 --> 00:17:32,380 So can freedom of religion or belief be used as the basis for violating other, 134 00:17:32,380 --> 00:17:38,860 less extreme rights to women's equality, for example, in relation to women's access to places of worship? 135 00:17:38,860 --> 00:17:48,640 Women's roles within religious communities are personal status codes that restrict their equality or obligatory dress codes, for example. 136 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:54,280 And this this is the area that interests me. 137 00:17:54,280 --> 00:18:04,980 So the women in mosques, the demands and the problems that the members of the women in mosques encounter, if they were to become a legal question. 138 00:18:04,980 --> 00:18:09,160 This this is the area that they would be located in. 139 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:15,730 So they would be considered this lesser infringements of their freedom of religion or belief. 140 00:18:15,730 --> 00:18:21,370 So how to scrutinise lesser infringements? This is the question. 141 00:18:21,370 --> 00:18:34,120 And I looked at the two reports published by the UN Special Rapporteur is the one in 2013 by the then special rapporteur, Hina Bielefeld. 142 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:40,120 Looked at freedom of religion or belief and equality between men and women. 143 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:47,140 And when in his report, he looks at these kinds of questions, the kinds of questions that we are dealing with. 144 00:18:47,140 --> 00:18:54,550 The key interpretive tools seem to be autonomy of a religious institution. 145 00:18:54,550 --> 00:19:04,180 So states cannot interfere in the autonomy of religious institutions so they can determine how the internal affairs are ordered, 146 00:19:04,180 --> 00:19:12,220 which also includes, obviously, how worship is structured and the rights to dissent. 147 00:19:12,220 --> 00:19:20,710 So everyone should have the right to dissent, to the practises within the religious community. 148 00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:25,450 And the state has a responsibility to protect the dissenters. 149 00:19:25,450 --> 00:19:37,830 And the other related responsibilities to protect the rights of the dissenters, to establish a new or religious new religious, our belief communities. 150 00:19:37,830 --> 00:19:49,140 But beyond that, it appeared that the autonomy fear seemed fairly broad in the 2020 report of the UN special rapporteur, Ahmed Shaheed. 151 00:19:49,140 --> 00:19:55,220 A look at freedom of religion or belief and gender equality and. 152 00:19:55,220 --> 00:20:06,350 Building up on the 2013 report and adding that when this dissenting is not so straightforward, 153 00:20:06,350 --> 00:20:14,390 it can be it can have very detrimental effects on people who are dissenting or who will have 154 00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:19,310 to leave or their only option if their only option is to leave the religious community. 155 00:20:19,310 --> 00:20:23,390 This is not a very clean cut solution to the problem. 156 00:20:23,390 --> 00:20:31,610 So while not really providing a very practical way of dealing with such situations, 157 00:20:31,610 --> 00:20:37,760 the special rapporteur emphasises that the rights of individuals should be protected even within the groups. 158 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:44,300 By creating an enabling environment where dissenters are protected against incitement to violence 159 00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:51,050 and are able to assert their agency through the exercise of their fundamental human rights, 160 00:20:51,050 --> 00:21:02,900 which includes all the range of human rights, basically including freedom of religion or belief and freedom of expression and freedom from coercion. 161 00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:09,340 So how to apply this to the case at hand? 162 00:21:09,340 --> 00:21:20,770 This is my last slide, and I am I am not offering us solution here, but I'm maybe offering different questions. 163 00:21:20,770 --> 00:21:26,020 So these interpretive tools, which I mentioned, amongst others, autonomy, right. 164 00:21:26,020 --> 00:21:36,750 To exit protection of dissenters. How would they apply to the case of women in mosques if it were to become a legal. 165 00:21:36,750 --> 00:21:46,680 Case and also, what does the case of the women in mosques demonstrate in terms of the nature of these tools? 166 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:53,560 Yeah. What does it say about the tools that we have? Are they adequate and practical? 167 00:21:53,560 --> 00:22:04,930 There are certainly some safeguards. But also, I think the case raises some questions or similar cases as raise important questions. 168 00:22:04,930 --> 00:22:10,960 First, I would like to highlight the impact of the general measures that states have to 169 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:18,060 take in order to eliminate discrimination against women in every area of life. 170 00:22:18,060 --> 00:22:25,990 So which comes from the set, said all Article two, because as I said before, 171 00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:35,230 the women in mosques members often referred to be women being present in every social area of life outside of the mosque. 172 00:22:35,230 --> 00:22:39,070 So they see them in the workplace. They see them in the parliament. 173 00:22:39,070 --> 00:22:43,540 They see them in in the school everywhere outside. 174 00:22:43,540 --> 00:22:48,370 So there is a certain freedom that women have achieved outside of the mosque. 175 00:22:48,370 --> 00:22:54,760 And this this, in a way, it seems to me, trickles down or permits to the religious sphere. 176 00:22:54,760 --> 00:23:04,420 So it's it has an impact on the religious sphere without being directly related to the religious sphere. 177 00:23:04,420 --> 00:23:08,480 So that that is one thing that's it seems important to me. 178 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:16,810 Secondly, states have the obligation to protect everyone's right to worship, including access to places of worship. 179 00:23:16,810 --> 00:23:26,290 And if there is a different treatment, whether this can be objectively justified, this needs to be shown by states. 180 00:23:26,290 --> 00:23:33,190 So if there is an obstacle before women accessing places of worship. 181 00:23:33,190 --> 00:23:40,110 This is not automatically. This would not be seen in the sphere of autonomy of the religious institution, 182 00:23:40,110 --> 00:23:46,180 but that there needs to be some questions that need to be asked to show why this is the case. 183 00:23:46,180 --> 00:23:53,770 And this is particularly important in the case of Turkey, I think, because in Turkey, the present. 184 00:23:53,770 --> 00:24:04,420 Or the places of worship. So the state responsibility is even more in in the case of Turkey because it is not solely up to 185 00:24:04,420 --> 00:24:13,110 the religious communities to determine how individuals or groups access the place of worship. 186 00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:18,090 So there is these tensions about access to places of worship, 187 00:24:18,090 --> 00:24:24,030 maybe explained by theological considerations about women's place in a mosque and their role in the 188 00:24:24,030 --> 00:24:32,220 mosque community between those who have regulatory powers and those who dissent to their position. 189 00:24:32,220 --> 00:24:41,550 So both of them. The last report of the UN special rapporteur refers to autonomy of religious institutions. 190 00:24:41,550 --> 00:24:52,320 But I would like to say that actually none of the human rights treaties or provisions referred to autonomy of religious institutions. 191 00:24:52,320 --> 00:25:04,080 The Human Rights Committee's General Comment, 22, refers to freedom in the internal affairs and freedoms related to acts integral to worship. 192 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:16,050 So I would refrain from extensively using the term autonomy of religious institutions, which which sounds a bit rigid to me. 193 00:25:16,050 --> 00:25:21,120 I would like to question that and ask whose autonomy we are talking about. 194 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:27,090 It would be more helpful to look at the autonomy of the community and who actually makes up the community. 195 00:25:27,090 --> 00:25:34,500 So maybe a bit more scrutiny about the concept of autonomy would help in 196 00:25:34,500 --> 00:25:41,610 scrutinising the legitimacy of the infringements and protecting the dissidents. 197 00:25:41,610 --> 00:25:47,850 Obviously, this is a very strong safeguard coming from the international human rights provisions. 198 00:25:47,850 --> 00:25:54,080 They need to be protected against physical harm, bullying, insults and threats. 199 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,350 And the rights to exit needs to be looked at more closely. 200 00:25:58,350 --> 00:26:04,530 And this is what I think the latest report of the U.N. special rapporteur is highlighting, 201 00:26:04,530 --> 00:26:12,840 that this is not seen as a very clean solution as it's it seems in theory. 202 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:20,100 There is a positive obligation on the states to ensure that this possibility is a safe possibility. 203 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:26,750 And, of course, training of religious personnel is also an. 204 00:26:26,750 --> 00:26:35,360 Especially in the case of chart. Turkey is an important one because, again, all the imams are trained and the public institutions. 205 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:40,970 So there is also a greater positive obligation on the Turkish authorities to 206 00:26:40,970 --> 00:26:47,720 ensure that they do not endorse any bullying or insults against dissidents. 207 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,640 And they understand the gender dimension of freedom, of religion or belief. 208 00:26:52,640 --> 00:27:01,040 And finally, I would like to point to the procedural aspects of decision making within religious communities. 209 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:10,310 And here what I mean is when we look at the different cases and here I'm looking at the women in mosques group. 210 00:27:10,310 --> 00:27:21,800 It's possible to see that actually there are ways of participation for women in the administration of mosques, 211 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,400 which is disconnected from the religious authority. 212 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:34,310 For example, all of the mosques have associations which take care of the mosque or are responsible for the physical spaces. 213 00:27:34,310 --> 00:27:48,200 And this is not necessarily all I'm not saying it's a totally secular institution, but it is distinct from the religious authority. 214 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,410 And women can be represented in these associations. 215 00:27:51,410 --> 00:28:01,700 So that might be, for example, one other way off, including women's voices and demands in the running of place of worship, 216 00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:08,480 which then has an impact on the social environment. The worship takes place. 217 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:14,840 As I said, maybe I'm not answering the whole I'm not solving the whole puzzle, 218 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:25,820 but I am just raising some more questions about the way autonomy is granted to religious institutions. 219 00:28:25,820 --> 00:28:34,340 Maybe this is not so clear in the international human rights provisions that protect freedom of religion or belief for all. 220 00:28:34,340 --> 00:28:40,770 Thank you so much for your attention. And over to Nancy. 221 00:28:40,770 --> 00:28:41,740 And Kuman, 222 00:28:41,740 --> 00:28:52,280 this theme of protest within a religious framework is one that has come up in in various guises in the seminars we've had over the last 10 years. 223 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:58,060 You perhaps. Yes, the puzzle remains because the puzzle has different solutions and approaches 224 00:28:58,060 --> 00:29:04,510 and each of them has costs and benefits and a variety of audiences and allies. 225 00:29:04,510 --> 00:29:09,370 But it's indeed a very intriguing and interesting case that you've described to us. 226 00:29:09,370 --> 00:29:16,240 Thank you so much. I mean, I think just the sheer numbers of participants from so many continents speaks to how much we 227 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:22,060 appreciated your topic and the way in which you were able to engage us and how you presented it. 228 00:29:22,060 --> 00:29:27,500 It's also interesting that we have a very coherent theme through this term and our seminars. 229 00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:31,420 So on the 18th of November, also Wednesday at 2:00. 230 00:29:31,420 --> 00:29:36,190 You're very welcome to join Benjamin, who also asked the question Benjamin will be addressing. 231 00:29:36,190 --> 00:29:42,310 God does not discriminate. Inclusive mosque politics in France and the UK. 232 00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:48,340 So I hope you will all be able to join us. And I hope you'll join a virtual clap of appreciation for Mina. 233 00:29:48,340 --> 00:29:52,210 And a virtual having a cup of coffee together after the talk. 234 00:29:52,210 --> 00:29:55,990 Thank you so much. Be there. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. And take care. 235 00:29:55,990 --> 00:29:59,973 Thank you very much again for the invitation.