1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:04,450 Good evening. Welcome to Oxford. Welcome to the Middle East Centre. 2 00:00:04,450 --> 00:00:13,620 Busch Gardens. My name is Norman Your. And it is a pleasure to welcome you all to the eighth and final session of our webinar 3 00:00:13,620 --> 00:00:20,340 dedicated to the exploration of the dictatorship's syndrome in the Middle East and beyond. 4 00:00:20,340 --> 00:00:24,030 Today, the focus will be very much on the beyond. 5 00:00:24,030 --> 00:00:30,030 As we welcome the award winning author IGY Tim adequate up in our virtual midst. 6 00:00:30,030 --> 00:00:37,110 It is by no means unknown to Oxford audience that she has addressed on various occasions in the past. 7 00:00:37,110 --> 00:00:43,950 Some in our audience today might even remember a particularly tough exam question when they 8 00:00:43,950 --> 00:00:50,340 were asked to translate an excerpt of a review of Aegeus novem between lady youthfully and cut. 9 00:00:50,340 --> 00:00:56,280 Women who go nuts for. Such is the curse of every great writer. 10 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:03,630 They eventually end up being the topic of an exam question and others associated in the mind of some students, 11 00:01:03,630 --> 00:01:08,880 at least with particularly challenging moments of their academic life. 12 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:14,950 But also, I reassure you, with some very enjoyable ones. 13 00:01:14,950 --> 00:01:21,130 Now, E.J., it's not only a leading novelist who has all such works, such as Must Leary, 14 00:01:21,130 --> 00:01:27,340 The Sound of Bananas, they've each translated into English as the time of mute swans. 15 00:01:27,340 --> 00:01:33,040 And all my uncle shot and drop it and see the encyclopaedia of Non-existent Births. 16 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:34,420 She's also a poet. 17 00:01:34,420 --> 00:01:44,230 And as many of you will know, an award winning journalist who has throughout her career addressed some of Turkey's many open wounds, 18 00:01:44,230 --> 00:01:53,980 ranging from the status of political prisoners and hunger strikers to the country's difficult relationship with Armenia and to the, 19 00:01:53,980 --> 00:02:03,310 of course, the Kurdish question from that point of view. Her words are exemplary with what I call an ethics of listening. 20 00:02:03,310 --> 00:02:06,260 And I must say, it sounds much better in French. 21 00:02:06,260 --> 00:02:16,480 It eloquent and a very rare talent to listen and to empathise with the downtrodden and those who rebelled. 22 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:21,690 And then to turn their voices into the subject matter of a work. 23 00:02:21,690 --> 00:02:31,560 This is by no means a passive engagement. Kim and Karen has played a leading role in the anti-war movement against the invasion of Iraq and of course, 24 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:43,500 in the 2013 gazy protests in Istanbul and throughout Turkey that challenged AKP to some of her work, such as her 2015 Turkey. 25 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:53,580 The insane and the melancholy have foreseen, documented and denounced Turkey's slow slide into autocracy in 2019. 26 00:02:53,580 --> 00:02:58,650 How to Lose a Country. The seven steps from democracy to dictatorship, however, 27 00:02:58,650 --> 00:03:06,750 draws lessons from the Turkish experience and analyses the rise of authoritarianism and populism throughout the world. 28 00:03:06,750 --> 00:03:13,690 It is a vibrant call for vigilance in the West in the age of Brexit and illiberalism. 29 00:03:13,690 --> 00:03:19,650 But political engagement has come at a price. And E.J. lives in exile in Zagreb. 30 00:03:19,650 --> 00:03:25,140 And yet she refuses to be pessimistic and works on a new book Full of Hope, 31 00:03:25,140 --> 00:03:34,960 entitled Together and Choices for a Better Now, which will be published into spring next year by Fourth Estate. 32 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:41,290 A few words now about the proceedings this evening for those amongst you who are not familiar with our programme. 33 00:03:41,290 --> 00:03:46,600 Please send in your questions via the chat function. My colleague, Eugene Rogan. 34 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:51,400 We'll be monitoring them and we'll put them to the AJC. After the talk. 35 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:58,810 But this is enough for me now. And time has come to listen to E.J. and to talk entitled The Logic of Chaos. 36 00:03:58,810 --> 00:04:04,090 The Pattern of Dictatorship. The floor is yours. 37 00:04:04,090 --> 00:04:07,970 No. Oh, my God. It is. Wow. Such kind words. 38 00:04:07,970 --> 00:04:13,160 I cannot thank you enough. My heartfelt thinking is for this introduction. Hello, everyone. 39 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:20,510 Here again, I am going to be talking about a horrible topic and a very joyful talk. 40 00:04:20,510 --> 00:04:25,790 And I'm going to try to make it as pleasant as I can. 41 00:04:25,790 --> 00:04:34,610 I wrote this book, How to Lose a Country The Seven Steps from Democracy to Dictatorship throughout 2017 and 18. 42 00:04:34,610 --> 00:04:42,350 And then it was published in the beginning of 2019. Now we are coming to the end of bloody years 2020. 43 00:04:42,350 --> 00:04:53,690 And the context is rapidly changing. Not only because of Korona, but also because my predictions have proven themselves to be true, 44 00:04:53,690 --> 00:04:59,240 unfortunately for Western democracies, which weren't very optimistic. 45 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:06,500 The book tells about the seven steps, but also seven global patterns of right wing populism. 46 00:05:06,500 --> 00:05:10,580 One of the aspects of this book is what? 47 00:05:10,580 --> 00:05:18,440 I want to talk about this a little bit. When the book was published, I was calling that the phenomenon Right-Wing Populism, 48 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:27,500 but now I feel like we should call it fascism after all, because since two years, several things have changed. 49 00:05:27,500 --> 00:05:32,240 And I feel like I don't need to use this reder, docile term. 50 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:39,290 Right-Wing Populism, whereas fascism is more convenient, more applicable in our current situation, 51 00:05:39,290 --> 00:05:43,070 especially when Trump is refusing to leave the White House. 52 00:05:43,070 --> 00:05:48,470 And when the white supremacists, not only in United States but also in Europe, 53 00:05:48,470 --> 00:05:56,300 are making their voices heard not from the fringes, but from the central political machine. 54 00:05:56,300 --> 00:06:05,060 So I would say the book tells us about the seven patterns that we see when fascism, 55 00:06:05,060 --> 00:06:12,320 this new type of fascism, introduces itself to the political sphere in any country. 56 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:22,160 When I wrote the book, as you said, Lauren and I drew lessons from Turkey and the book was partly a warning call for the Western countries because I 57 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:30,080 was trying to tell them what had happened to us will be happening to you or actually happening to you right now. 58 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,640 And you don't see it. And many people, you know, well learnt. 59 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:39,860 Why is people intellectuals in almost every European country? 60 00:06:39,860 --> 00:06:51,160 Because the book was published in almost everywhere in Europe. Many of them have fallen to the mistake of thinking that I am comparing the countries. 61 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:56,020 Thankfully, I am not that naive. I don't compare countries. 62 00:06:56,020 --> 00:06:59,590 I know that these countries are completely different from each other. 63 00:06:59,590 --> 00:07:08,200 They have definitely they have different backgrounds, different sociological structure and et cetera. 64 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:14,470 What I am comparing is the political development that is taking place in each country and trying 65 00:07:14,470 --> 00:07:21,580 to compare these developments while trying to find out a pattern that is repeating itself, 66 00:07:21,580 --> 00:07:29,040 which in my point of view, has seven steps. And these seven steps are for those who haven't read the book yet. 67 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:37,920 Is one creative moment. I'll go through the steps very shortly and I'm going to see a few sentences for each step. 68 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:46,800 Creating a movement has been the motto dates 2016 in European countries and UK as well. 69 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:52,860 The word movement is very promising as opposed to the word party. 70 00:07:52,860 --> 00:07:59,280 Party is a static word and it has a history going back two centuries ago, 71 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:07,200 whereas movement, it promises us action, a direction and a mobilisation energy. 72 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:16,410 So all these right wing populist movements, then fascist movements start their political life by creating a movement. 73 00:08:16,410 --> 00:08:21,900 And I would like to remind you that when Trump refused to leave the White House, 74 00:08:21,900 --> 00:08:29,730 his first statement after the election night, Mike Pence, his weepie, was talking about this movement again. 75 00:08:29,730 --> 00:08:35,730 He said that are movements that are that added up to whenever we hear the word movement. 76 00:08:35,730 --> 00:08:44,300 I think we all should be alert. We are going through a very interesting time globally. 77 00:08:44,300 --> 00:08:51,260 We know that both international and national institutions are falling apart. 78 00:08:51,260 --> 00:09:00,530 They cannot hold water anymore. U.N., NATO, European Union, all are going through the age of disintegration. 79 00:09:00,530 --> 00:09:04,250 And on national level, the representative democracy, 80 00:09:04,250 --> 00:09:12,710 the mechanisms and the institutions of representative democracy are not responding to the needs of this age. 81 00:09:12,710 --> 00:09:24,980 And to do technological improvement, especially in communications where they cannot respond, they cannot comply with, you know, the new conditions. 82 00:09:24,980 --> 00:09:35,540 That is why movement becomes a more convenient, more appealing political concept for a lot of people. 83 00:09:35,540 --> 00:09:45,590 And it also provides the weakness that these right wing populist movements, fascist movements, very much in need of. 84 00:09:45,590 --> 00:09:53,660 The second step or the second commonality is disrupting the rationale and terrorising the language. 85 00:09:53,660 --> 00:10:01,500 I think Britain experienced this step recently during Brexit. 86 00:10:01,500 --> 00:10:09,510 We have an understanding, as the people of the world is the educated people of the world, that there is a common sense. 87 00:10:09,510 --> 00:10:22,710 There are common codes of a society and there are, you know, impossible to break rules, unwritten rules like basics of logic. 88 00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:30,630 Let's say, you know, Aristotelian logic, you cannot break it because if you break it, you become a schizophrenic. 89 00:10:30,630 --> 00:10:35,220 Let's say I'm just, you know, giving exaggerating the situation. 90 00:10:35,220 --> 00:10:45,920 But then we are now facing a global political movement that is using that is almost opposing the Aristotelian logic. 91 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:55,310 So it is only natural that those who have some sort of commonsense feel like, am I mad? 92 00:10:55,310 --> 00:11:00,840 Has everyone gone mad or is the entire world mad? 93 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:08,520 Ironically, these three sentences that we have been using so much since last few years 94 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:15,960 belonged to a Russian writer who wrote her memoirs telling about the Stalin era. 95 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:22,770 I find this quite ironic. So there is this terrorising the language, disrupting durational, 96 00:11:22,770 --> 00:11:31,380 and it's so easy because we are operating in a communications square which is not regulated. 97 00:11:31,380 --> 00:11:43,470 Social media, Internet and also the battered conventional journalism entire communication sphere is like a jungle where the powerful gets the rule. 98 00:11:43,470 --> 00:11:50,550 So we have to remember that once the radio became a mass communication tool, it brought us, 99 00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:56,310 you know, Second World War fascism, ultranationalism during the Second World War. 100 00:11:56,310 --> 00:12:01,950 And now, once again, the humanity is changing its way of communication. 101 00:12:01,950 --> 00:12:04,620 It is understanding of truth. 102 00:12:04,620 --> 00:12:15,300 And then we have this new political movement, which pretty much stands upon this unstable communication spare and it energises. 103 00:12:15,300 --> 00:12:24,780 It is energised by that space. And the third one is remove the shame immoralities hot in the post Truth World. 104 00:12:24,780 --> 00:12:29,250 And this is the I think the most important thing in this book. 105 00:12:29,250 --> 00:12:39,780 I you know, I find it you know, in my point of view, this is the most important chapter and most important commonality, because truth in post truth. 106 00:12:39,780 --> 00:12:46,620 We have been talking about this topic excessively since 2016 or even before that. 107 00:12:46,620 --> 00:12:51,840 But many people, as far as I can see, take it as a technical problem. 108 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:58,080 If he can, you know, double cheque the facts, if he can endorse the facts. 109 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:03,240 The reality. The truth. We can beat the post truth era. 110 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:09,180 And if you know enough journalism is done, there will be no rain of posturing. 111 00:13:09,180 --> 00:13:18,290 And so on. It is not true. The attack on truth is a moral and political issue and moral. 112 00:13:18,290 --> 00:13:25,770 The world moral. I underline that one. And we have a pretty long history of losing the truth. 113 00:13:25,770 --> 00:13:30,480 It didn't start with these Right-Wing populist movements or fascist movements. 114 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:36,200 It goes back to 1970s. It goes back to the Iraq war, actually. 115 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:49,110 And it goes back to No. Two war demonstrations, global demonstrations, which did not make impact on the final decision of invasion of Iraq. 116 00:13:49,110 --> 00:13:52,620 So what is true? What is not became really blurry. 117 00:13:52,620 --> 00:14:02,430 What is right? What is wrong as well? And the fourth commonality of fourth pattern is dismantling judicial and political mechanisms. 118 00:14:02,430 --> 00:14:09,280 Britain as well is now experiencing this step or this pattern of fascism. 119 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:15,220 This is so it is not happening only through putting the, you know, 120 00:14:15,220 --> 00:14:26,050 assigning appointing loyal party members to the certain critical positions in judicial and political mechanism, 121 00:14:26,050 --> 00:14:31,600 but also it is happening through toying with these institutions, 122 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:41,590 so much so that the entire society has this new understanding of political and judicial institutions. 123 00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:46,810 They start thinking that, oh, these are paper tigers. These are stupid, fearless. 124 00:14:46,810 --> 00:14:53,950 Actually, we don't need them. So it happens not only through appointing loyal members of the party, 125 00:14:53,950 --> 00:15:02,240 but also constantly attacking these institutions to make them look super fearless at their. 126 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:08,150 Designing your own citizen. This one is the fifth factor is mostly about women. 127 00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:13,040 It starts with women because somehow there's this understanding that if the, you know, 128 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:23,780 women are easier to change and they have been always used as the window mannequins of ideological projects, any ideological project. 129 00:15:23,780 --> 00:15:27,860 So right wing populism or fascism uses women. 130 00:15:27,860 --> 00:15:31,520 They take women as like these, you know, paper dolls. 131 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:42,890 And then they put on them new clothes, new looks and new outfits, whatever, and they put on their ideological window dressing these women. 132 00:15:42,890 --> 00:15:51,520 But then it's also this pattern includes or this step includes cancelling out the others. 133 00:15:51,520 --> 00:16:01,270 The unwanted, you know, slowly defining the unwanted citizen, which I am, you know, I am as well. 134 00:16:01,270 --> 00:16:11,350 So like many other people in Turkey. So bit by bit you understand that there is a certain model of citizen and you are not one of them. 135 00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:16,440 And I remember two thousand seven election night in Turkey. 136 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,940 And I'm giving this example to say that these things do not happen in a very blunt way. 137 00:16:21,940 --> 00:16:29,730 Like, they don't happen overnight. It is just tiny words, you know, a mention of insinuation and so on. 138 00:16:29,730 --> 00:16:40,650 2007 election night and I on giving his victory speech, which was embraced by media, mainstream media. 139 00:16:40,650 --> 00:16:51,510 And he was saying those you said this. Those who didn't vote for us are also the colours of this country. 140 00:16:51,510 --> 00:16:58,080 And the next day, every almost every, you know, highlight of the newspaper, 141 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:07,030 every big news piece about this victory speech was saying how embracing was Mr. Erdoğan, whereas I wrote. 142 00:17:07,030 --> 00:17:12,600 OK, now we are gonna cheers, you know, the dressings of the of the main meal. 143 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:21,860 We are not the main meal. So it means like, you know, we can be skipped. We can be dismissed, easily pushed away from the edge of the plate. 144 00:17:21,860 --> 00:17:25,040 So it's about words. It's about, you know, 145 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:35,930 details and people many people feel like they would be blamed of being paranoid when they pay too much attention to these details, 146 00:17:35,930 --> 00:17:40,550 when they mention these details or little insinuations. 147 00:17:40,550 --> 00:17:47,840 I think one of the mistakes we did in Turkey was that thinking that some of us is exaggerating too much. 148 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:54,950 The danger, though, that is why maybe I, you know, more alert than anyone, you know, 149 00:17:54,950 --> 00:18:02,840 nothing anyone but more elect than many other people to what's happening in European countries in Britain and the United States. 150 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,250 Anyway, let's go back to our pattern six pattern is let them laugh at the higher. 151 00:18:07,250 --> 00:18:11,150 I love this because it applies to Britain and the United States a lot. 152 00:18:11,150 --> 00:18:21,200 It does into France or Germany. Their humour is not that is not as good as these two countries. 153 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:31,700 Unfortunately. I'm sorry, Lauren. Laughing and creating producing political humour, of course, can be a tool of resistance. 154 00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:39,650 But unfortunately, in our times, it also becomes a too comfortable bunker or shelter. 155 00:18:39,650 --> 00:18:52,430 To hide away from the realities of the political developments and also we actually know that now, when I published the book, it was very fresh. 156 00:18:52,430 --> 00:19:01,250 But now I think many more people are aware that political humour is also taking away the tension, coming down the anxiety. 157 00:19:01,250 --> 00:19:07,640 Therefore, it is a little bit delaying the political reaction. 158 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:12,110 But there is another thing which is which I find very important. 159 00:19:12,110 --> 00:19:20,840 The political humour, especially sarcasm, becomes a tool to hit your own. 160 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:32,460 Not the power, not the oppressive power, but to hit the people that you are in solidarity with or that you should be in solidarity with. 161 00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:42,030 And I think that is because we feel defeated before this enormous wave of fascism and then we start doing things, 162 00:19:42,030 --> 00:19:46,290 stingy things, you know, picking on each other and so on. 163 00:19:46,290 --> 00:19:53,970 And it somehow I feel I as far as I can observe it is creating a behavioural 164 00:19:53,970 --> 00:20:01,950 culture amongst those people who are supposed to be in solidarity against fascism. 165 00:20:01,950 --> 00:20:09,660 And I think this is equally dangerous for a country that is facing danger of fascism. 166 00:20:09,660 --> 00:20:17,100 And the last one, of course, build your own country. And this is, you know, we're well known to us from McCarthy era. 167 00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:23,670 Love or love it or leave it. And, you know, several other examples can be from the top of my head. 168 00:20:23,670 --> 00:20:30,470 It just McCarthy came to me. But, you know, Hitler or whatever, any kind of fascism ends up here. 169 00:20:30,470 --> 00:20:34,290 You are not wanted. So you go away. Either we kill you or imprison you. 170 00:20:34,290 --> 00:20:38,910 I'm like, that changes. But at the end of the day, this country is ours. 171 00:20:38,910 --> 00:20:53,100 We, as in the supporters, the loyal, loyal members of that political movement and the others should go die or just disappear or submit. 172 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:59,830 I don't think that European country, European citizens will end up here. 173 00:20:59,830 --> 00:21:07,140 Well, let me put it this way. I didn't think that European citizens will end up in the step. 174 00:21:07,140 --> 00:21:14,930 But unfortunately, I'm hearing many British people, many Americans from other European countries as well. 175 00:21:14,930 --> 00:21:20,780 Saying that I had to. This is not my country anymore. This is how you lose your country. 176 00:21:20,780 --> 00:21:26,650 This is the feeling that, you know, that comes to you very slightly. 177 00:21:26,650 --> 00:21:30,560 You know, this is not this is not Britain anymore. This is not United States. It's not France. 178 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,650 This is not Germany. 179 00:21:32,650 --> 00:21:43,920 And then if you can only overcome that feeling and start reacting, you know, organised in cold blooded manner, not getting too excited about it. 180 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:53,500 And then you can get back to your country. But I am pretty depressed to see that actually it is now happening to several citizens as well, 181 00:21:53,500 --> 00:22:03,010 because you don't lose your country by only having to go away from the country, but also the feeling of home is lost sometimes. 182 00:22:03,010 --> 00:22:10,490 And that is also losing your country. But I am very hopeful for the coming days. 183 00:22:10,490 --> 00:22:14,600 I just don't want to, you know, stop here in the most desperate sentence. 184 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:22,880 That's why I'm adding this part. And I think this new crisis of pandemic will change a lot of things. 185 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:32,540 It won't be pretty. It won't be easy. But I think it will change the context that we are living in and talking about. 186 00:22:32,540 --> 00:22:36,160 So let's see what happens. Thank you. 187 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:44,130 Learnt. And thank you, everyone. Thank you very much, A.J., for a very inspiring talk. 188 00:22:44,130 --> 00:22:50,790 I will continue by saying that, unfortunately, your book has proven to be prophetic. 189 00:22:50,790 --> 00:22:55,690 And while normally this would have been something, too, I mean, 190 00:22:55,690 --> 00:23:04,510 something one could have rejoiced that as an also in this particular case, it is actually very, very sad. 191 00:23:04,510 --> 00:23:08,440 But I would like to use my prerogative as a as a cheque, 192 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:16,960 perhaps to to start by asking you a couple of questions while questions are, I believe, coming in also from the audience. 193 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:23,560 It's going to be a little bit embarrassing. But I remember a talk you gave two or three years ago in getting in and now 194 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:30,460 people are going to start to believe that I am some kind of and following you. 195 00:23:30,460 --> 00:23:31,930 You were in that talk. 196 00:23:31,930 --> 00:23:45,850 You also referred to the role of the media in promoting these images of strong men like Trump, like add along like Autobahn in Hungary, 197 00:23:45,850 --> 00:23:57,480 and that one of the problems was that the press kept on publishing pictures of whatever you wrote about Turkey. 198 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:08,380 What was it about Turkey? You ended up with an image of a dog being published whenever something was published about Hungary you had thought about. 199 00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:13,060 And I was wondering if you could elaborate this a little bit for our audience today as well, 200 00:24:13,060 --> 00:24:18,710 because I suppose a very important point, because this still is happening. 201 00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:25,780 And even though I tell all the editors, like, would you please not, you know, do something else, not Mr. Erdogan. 202 00:24:25,780 --> 00:24:30,310 This is unfair. I think you know this idea. 203 00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:32,900 OK. It's not an idea. It's an observation. 204 00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:43,780 It did the first time I remember observing this, I was in Denmark with Mikhail Siskin, Russian novelist, an amazing person, amazing novelist. 205 00:24:43,780 --> 00:24:48,400 And we were supposed to talk about, you know, our countries and the political situation. 206 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,960 And then we are in the stage and there's this giant screen behind us. 207 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,860 And on this side there is Putin. On my side, there's that one. 208 00:24:57,860 --> 00:25:03,340 And I told we are too little. We are too small in the stage now. 209 00:25:03,340 --> 00:25:11,020 They are the bigger guy. So why are you reproducing the power sheen once again? 210 00:25:11,020 --> 00:25:19,400 Whereas this is the stage where we are challenging this polishing and Michael kind of laughing a lot. 211 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:32,980 So. And whenever I write about taqiyya, I see I don't it is unfair because 20 years ago, not 20 like 30 years ago, let's say when we say Russia, 212 00:25:32,980 --> 00:25:42,610 the first word that would come to our mind would be Tchaikovsky, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, God, Gotting, you know, whatever. 213 00:25:42,610 --> 00:25:49,470 Some some thing is nice things, you know, the good side of humanity, so to speak. 214 00:25:49,470 --> 00:25:57,160 And now when we say Russia, there is not only not only the first wait word is putting that comes to our mind, 215 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:03,070 but there is no other word that comes to mind. You know, Russian was the. 216 00:26:03,070 --> 00:26:07,810 Well, Alexander, I like the Nobel prise winning Russian author, of course. 217 00:26:07,810 --> 00:26:12,130 But for the first word and for a long time, the only word is Putin. 218 00:26:12,130 --> 00:26:19,750 And this also goes for Turkey, for United States, for braciole, for Mexico. 219 00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:29,420 It is unfair to the people of those countries and all the things that they have done produced. 220 00:26:29,420 --> 00:26:38,060 And also to the people who are resisting these, you know, political developments, we never mentioned them, it's their face. 221 00:26:38,060 --> 00:26:50,500 So we have to be careful because when we are opposing, sometimes we are reproducing the power relations once again without even noticing. 222 00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:59,760 So, yeah, you know, taxi drivers, income ratio or in United States, even in the United States, I should say that. 223 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:08,710 And in, you know, anywhere in Europe, when I say I'm from Turkey, they say, oh, Abdon. 224 00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:13,880 And I really want to say we are more than that. 225 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:27,430 And now it is more. When I published a book, it wouldn't be so it wouldn't sound so familiar when I said this, but now I think it would. 226 00:27:27,430 --> 00:27:42,180 There is a certain shame. In our in these people, Americans, British or, you know, Turkish people, to be represented by the worst of your country. 227 00:27:42,180 --> 00:27:49,050 And not being able to get rid of this situation, not being able to get out of this situation. 228 00:27:49,050 --> 00:28:02,410 Breaks your heart. And it embarrasses you. So maybe we shouldn't, you know, constantly reproduce this situation so that we can have other voices, 229 00:28:02,410 --> 00:28:08,190 other faces, other pictures, other images from those countries so we can. 230 00:28:08,190 --> 00:28:13,770 You know, start to continue to battle in the world of images as well. 231 00:28:13,770 --> 00:28:21,530 So to speak. I think this is a very important point and precisely about that battle and that that's going 232 00:28:21,530 --> 00:28:28,080 to be my my last question before I pass on to Eugene with the questions from the audience. 233 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,880 That's because I want to to ask an optimistic question. 234 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:42,350 So could you give us a few of your while, some of your ten recipes for a better future that you are writing about right now? 235 00:28:42,350 --> 00:28:50,660 Not better future better now, because the United now future is too far away. 236 00:28:50,660 --> 00:28:56,060 Well, the problem is I have been, you know, after writing this book and it was published in several countries, 237 00:28:56,060 --> 00:29:04,970 so I had to go through these several countries like a bloody Cassandra and repeat all these horrible things over and over again. 238 00:29:04,970 --> 00:29:12,440 And I was, you know, personally or mentally and emotionally, I thought maybe it's time to be the Mary Poppins of politics now. 239 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:18,260 So I decided to write together 10 choices for a better now. 240 00:29:18,260 --> 00:29:29,210 It is less of real politics, that book, but more sort of philosophical approach to the important matters of our time. 241 00:29:29,210 --> 00:29:40,160 And there are ten words. And the first word. And I think most important in the book is Faith. 242 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,680 Because. 243 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:55,410 We are seeing the worst of our kind constantly, we are subjected to the representation of the worst of our kind and it's like a bombardment of images. 244 00:29:55,410 --> 00:30:03,340 We don't see. OK, let's put it like this. How many times this week did you see the face of the guy? 245 00:30:03,340 --> 00:30:07,110 The Turkish scientists, husband and wife. 246 00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:15,820 How many times did you see their faces and how many times did you see Boris Johnson or from. 247 00:30:15,820 --> 00:30:21,080 This bombardment of the worst. 248 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:28,710 Actually damages our sense of humankind. 249 00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:35,730 One doesn't notice this until one starts hating oneself. 250 00:30:35,730 --> 00:30:43,140 Because you're a human as well. So you start asking this very, very wrong question. 251 00:30:43,140 --> 00:30:47,010 Is human evil in its essence? 252 00:30:47,010 --> 00:30:49,570 Maybe it's rotten. Already. 253 00:30:49,570 --> 00:31:01,190 So you gradually, because of fascism, because of this global wave of new form of fascism, you start losing your faith in your own kind. 254 00:31:01,190 --> 00:31:06,860 And if you lose your faith in your kind, that means the rest of us is down the hill. 255 00:31:06,860 --> 00:31:15,020 There is no coming back from that. So one of the 10 certain words that I chose was faith. 256 00:31:15,020 --> 00:31:20,080 And I wanted to I wanted to tell people. 257 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:28,780 We have a moral duty to have faith in our kind, not because we are naive, not because of those nice videos, 258 00:31:28,780 --> 00:31:36,580 people doing the nice thing, you know, the right thing on that that are, you know, multiplied in social media. 259 00:31:36,580 --> 00:31:46,780 It's a moral duty to do this. And we owe it to the our ancestors and to our kids, to our children. 260 00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:51,550 So how are we going to restore our faith? 261 00:31:51,550 --> 00:32:01,780 And this is the question I asked. And it is not a very Samarai usable book, I should say, because it's stories I told everything through stories, 262 00:32:01,780 --> 00:32:05,500 personal stories, you know, stories around the world I've seen. 263 00:32:05,500 --> 00:32:14,140 And so but. I want you to think, you know, everyone who is listening now, how much faith do you have? 264 00:32:14,140 --> 00:32:20,620 An inhuman kind. This is important to me because I am thinking now. 265 00:32:20,620 --> 00:32:34,570 Although Dostoevski, for instance, hated, you know, quite many people in crime and Punishment, he had a different sense of time and human kind. 266 00:32:34,570 --> 00:32:39,730 For him, there was no the end of the world was not calculable. 267 00:32:39,730 --> 00:32:44,980 Now we can calculate it. You know, everybody has an idea when everything is going to explode. 268 00:32:44,980 --> 00:32:53,610 And so this changes your perception of what you're doing and the feeling of reason. 269 00:32:53,610 --> 00:33:01,760 Meaning everything. And then, you know, imagine all those writers from the beginning of twenty century. 270 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:08,770 They were in all of humankind, although they hated it deeply as well. 271 00:33:08,770 --> 00:33:21,900 But we are different now. We are losing our face of humankind to the banality of evil, but to the evil of banality. 272 00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:28,860 Thank you, A.J. I will. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's a long topic and I'm giving some highlights. 273 00:33:28,860 --> 00:33:37,500 It does definitely make sense. And I will use the opportunity to think about my faith in humanity while Eugene will 274 00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:43,350 be providing you with some more questions that have been coming in from audience. 275 00:33:43,350 --> 00:33:48,330 Thank you, Lawrence. Thank you both. A.J., wonderful presentation that you've inspired. 276 00:33:48,330 --> 00:33:49,530 A lot of questions already. 277 00:33:49,530 --> 00:33:56,460 So I'm going to ask you to try and be brief in your answers so that as many of our audience as questions can be addressed as possible. 278 00:33:56,460 --> 00:34:01,260 The first is actually by Ali. Sarah that Ali, I'm going to ask you to please rephrase your question, 279 00:34:01,260 --> 00:34:05,850 because you've used an expression that I don't understand that if I don't, I'm afraid our audience would either. 280 00:34:05,850 --> 00:34:10,980 Not sure what you mean by Shatzer. So if you could please just rephrase your question and type it up now. 281 00:34:10,980 --> 00:34:15,990 I'll get back to you later on. So our first question comes from an anonymous attendee. 282 00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:24,660 Could you please elaborate on the sixth stage you mentioned and give an example perhaps of how political sarcasm has been used? 283 00:34:24,660 --> 00:34:28,590 OK. Laughing is something that I love. 284 00:34:28,590 --> 00:34:36,510 And I think there is a deep connexion between ability to love and being human, especially as a woman. 285 00:34:36,510 --> 00:34:44,940 But I think in this time and at this stage of global politics, we have to be very careful. 286 00:34:44,940 --> 00:34:51,350 We have to pay attention, rather how we laughed and when we laugh. 287 00:34:51,350 --> 00:34:59,210 And this, by the way, this idea writing about this step came to me in New York when Trump was elected. 288 00:34:59,210 --> 00:35:04,740 I was there right after like one one month, almost after the shock was still on. 289 00:35:04,740 --> 00:35:10,260 I mean, nobody was nobody. Everybody was really shocked. 290 00:35:10,260 --> 00:35:23,690 And it was a big audience. And they were trying to laugh in every possible way, as if they couldn't wait for a joke to laugh about Trump. 291 00:35:23,690 --> 00:35:28,070 And I thought how anxious it is, how terrified they are. 292 00:35:28,070 --> 00:35:31,880 So they just want to actually suppress their anxiety. 293 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:43,480 And by laughing at the phenomenon they want to make, they want to feel like this is not as dangerous as it seems. 294 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:56,120 So laughing can be curing. Laughing can be really damaging for the oppressive power, but also it can be a shelter, an emotional shelter. 295 00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:01,820 And this should be, you know, scrutinised, especially nowadays. 296 00:36:01,820 --> 00:36:12,200 It would be a nice exercise, so to speak. When we look at the political humour, political jokes, let's think, you know, why are we laughing now? 297 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:21,680 What are we laughing at? You know, are we trying to calm ourselves down or are we are we by laughing? 298 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:32,360 I'd be damaging the power of. Really? Which is, as I recall, from high school classics, where Gibbons goes in decline and fall of the Roman Empire. 299 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:45,000 That combination of corrupt emperors. And when society begins to laugh at the rulers that the fall of an empire is around the corner. 300 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:53,060 Well, we have been laughing at Mr. Idealogues where it must've scheme nothing escapes. 301 00:36:53,060 --> 00:36:59,640 Our next question is, should make these who praises you for an elegant wakeup call and asks, 302 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:10,460 could you say something more about how you see the current and potential impact on regional organisations and specifically the EU? 303 00:37:10,460 --> 00:37:20,430 EU has always been an incredibly boring subject, but also very interesting as well. 304 00:37:20,430 --> 00:37:33,220 OK, let's do it like this. We have Putin, we have Trump and and on several other leaders, you know, belonging to the same ilk, let's say. 305 00:37:33,220 --> 00:37:38,760 And there is European Union whose debt is trying to supply some moral ground. 306 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,370 And, you know, talk from the high moral ground and so on. 307 00:37:42,370 --> 00:37:48,250 But then, unfortunately, Syria happened. And Syrian refugees. 308 00:37:48,250 --> 00:37:58,040 You know, the entire refugee crisis destroyed the last resiting of pastiche of European Union. 309 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:05,150 So I don't think there is no moral high ground in the world now, which is one of the problems, 310 00:38:05,150 --> 00:38:14,000 global problems that we are going through, because, OK, we have leaders who do not have Shein. 311 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:22,980 But also, we have no institutions that are morally intact enough to embarrass them. 312 00:38:22,980 --> 00:38:29,190 So it is not only real politic disintegration we are going through in terms of European Union, 313 00:38:29,190 --> 00:38:34,440 but also and more importantly, in fact, it is a moral disintegration. 314 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,280 So, yeah, I was digging digging deeper. 315 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:46,530 I think it wasn't a very often. Still more to come, though, because from the OSC area that you're great, as always, to have you with us. 316 00:38:46,530 --> 00:38:54,970 He's shifting your orientation away from the EU to what is going on to the United States and asks, do you think the movement that Trump has generated. 317 00:38:54,970 --> 00:39:01,920 The U.S. has been dealt a blow due to the election defeat he suffered, or can he come back because of the significant support he received? 318 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:08,390 So is an election defeat enough to stop the chaos or does it more than that? 319 00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:15,650 Well, I recently wrote a piece for Guardian. It was like two days after the election and I said I said that Trump is already 320 00:39:15,650 --> 00:39:21,410 building a political black op team within the government administration. 321 00:39:21,410 --> 00:39:31,340 So be aware it's not going to happen. Well, you know, many American commentators, academics and journalists, they are seeing this coming. 322 00:39:31,340 --> 00:39:40,160 They have been seeing it coming, but they didn't know how exactly would happen this pull and push about the White House. 323 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:50,120 What is important is always happening somewhere behind the stage, behind somewhere, which we think could quite insignificant. 324 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:57,320 The environmental, you know, comity, this little judge there in the, you know, 325 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:02,690 insignificant courthouse, all these things have been happening in the United States. 326 00:40:02,690 --> 00:40:10,610 And I am not an expert on American politics. And there are amazing people who have been talking about these things. 327 00:40:10,610 --> 00:40:15,020 But I wouldn't say exceptionalism, American exceptionalism. 328 00:40:15,020 --> 00:40:25,130 I wouldn't call it American arrogance, because I know how hard it is to see that those things that only happen in crazy countries happen to you. 329 00:40:25,130 --> 00:40:26,420 How embarrassing it is, 330 00:40:26,420 --> 00:40:39,380 how it's how hard it is to swallow the fact that there has been some delay in seeing the urgency and the gravity of the situation in United States. 331 00:40:39,380 --> 00:40:44,810 And they are still making jokes about this. You know, Trump not leaving the White House. 332 00:40:44,810 --> 00:40:51,630 What they are doing wrong, in my point of view, is that they are waiting a clear cut. 333 00:40:51,630 --> 00:40:55,860 He's not leaving White House. He's leaving White House. It doesn't happen like that. 334 00:40:55,860 --> 00:41:03,590 This entire machine of new form of fascism is working upon instability. 335 00:41:03,590 --> 00:41:14,100 It is immense ability to create it, to sustain instability and to make the crisis the rule. 336 00:41:14,100 --> 00:41:23,760 So he will be there. Biden will be the president. But constantly there will be this like a mosquito, you know? 337 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,650 Well, that leads beautifully to our next question, which says, you know, if it were just a political matter, 338 00:41:28,650 --> 00:41:34,560 then an election defeat would be enough to bring about the change to stop this decline into chaos. 339 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:35,520 But rather than that, 340 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:43,920 isn't this new wave of fascism rather a social movement having much deeper roots that are just exploited by populist authoritarian figures? 341 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:54,060 In other words, we have a much bigger issue to contend with than simply one which democratic processes might resolve. 342 00:41:54,060 --> 00:42:04,830 This is an interesting aspect to think about, although I do think that elections or current state of representative democracy will 343 00:42:04,830 --> 00:42:11,280 not change anything in terms of getting rid of this political disease that say, 344 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:22,840 I wouldn't completely dismiss the fact that representative democracy is one of the best things that humanity could put together until this point. 345 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:32,900 You know, when we look at the world out there, there's two. Those who want to change things have very, very roughly two perspectives. 346 00:42:32,900 --> 00:42:41,810 Let's get get rid of all the institutions. Revolution and let's fortify the institutions. 347 00:42:41,810 --> 00:42:50,480 I think they will be something in between. I think they need political organisms that are now shaping through Occupy movement, 348 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:56,750 through climate movement, through women's movement or Black Lives Matter. 349 00:42:56,750 --> 00:43:10,930 I think they are going to occupy. The dying skeletons or the skeletons of representative democratic institutions, 350 00:43:10,930 --> 00:43:17,930 and they're going to be why these institutions in a certain way and they are going to reshape them. 351 00:43:17,930 --> 00:43:22,980 So I think that will be the answer. OK. 352 00:43:22,980 --> 00:43:26,860 Thank you. And Ali, Shane, thank you very much for the clarification. 353 00:43:26,860 --> 00:43:29,040 I think I now have the point of your question, 354 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:35,910 which is really talking about the role of external powers in trying to influence political developments in other countries. 355 00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:40,290 And here the question really is whether sanctions that essay by Trump or by the Biden 356 00:43:40,290 --> 00:43:46,740 administration would serve to consolidate votes for the AKP or help the opposition. 357 00:43:46,740 --> 00:43:56,630 And do officials really understand the pros and cons of such sanction, action or outside pressures from the Turkish context? 358 00:43:56,630 --> 00:44:04,370 There was a lot of cynicism on social media when election results in the United States were delayed. 359 00:44:04,370 --> 00:44:12,200 And one of the jokes was America is faster when it comes to electing other country's presidents. 360 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:17,850 So. You know, the United States and European countries, in fact, 361 00:44:17,850 --> 00:44:28,180 has a lot of role for Mr. Erdogan to gain such national and international power and prestige. 362 00:44:28,180 --> 00:44:39,110 Let me remind you that Obama endorsed him as the example leader, the good leader for the greater Middle East. 363 00:44:39,110 --> 00:44:43,520 So when it comes to getting rid of the sanctions. 364 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:55,230 Alan? We can be more creative in that sanctions is I mean, like I haven't seen any in any time in history. 365 00:44:55,230 --> 00:45:04,860 Sanctions really worked. So, you know, they they should, you know, use more creative techniques if they really want to do that kind of thing. 366 00:45:04,860 --> 00:45:09,250 But I also, you know, these are jokes, but very easy to misunderstand. 367 00:45:09,250 --> 00:45:17,230 So I have to make sure that I do think that people of the of those countries who are subjected to right wing populism 368 00:45:17,230 --> 00:45:24,520 and fascism should be in solidarity and should come together and can come together to change their leaders, 369 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:32,920 of course, and through elections. Obviously, I got a comment from coloured capris and you can reflect on that one. 370 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,290 And then I'll follow with the next question. 371 00:45:35,290 --> 00:45:42,760 Collette writes, One of the most worrying features of these new fascism's or new despotisms, as John King calls them, 372 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:51,810 is the fact that criticising the regime or the strong man's misdemeanours ends up being a form of amplification or propaganda. 373 00:45:51,810 --> 00:45:55,580 And the other thing is the promise of welfare that these regimes do. 374 00:45:55,580 --> 00:46:02,080 This is appealing to the citizens need of stability in a changing civil as a Tory moment. 375 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,350 So that was a comment more than a question. But is it anything that you had a reflection on? 376 00:46:06,350 --> 00:46:16,300 Yes, sure. You know, I have giving speeches like this in Oxford and in several other academic environment in universities. 377 00:46:16,300 --> 00:46:23,140 And when in when in such academic environment, people ask you, what do you how do you define Right-Wing Populism? 378 00:46:23,140 --> 00:46:30,340 And there are many definitions and there have there are many books, brilliant books about this term. 379 00:46:30,340 --> 00:46:36,620 But how I defined it is coming from. It is my definition is coming from my personal experience as well. 380 00:46:36,620 --> 00:46:45,280 It is mobilising the calculated ignorance against the insecure interests of humankind. 381 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:53,140 So. Right wing populism is something against the interest of humankind. 382 00:46:53,140 --> 00:46:58,790 So whatever they promise. And their promises always change. 383 00:46:58,790 --> 00:47:02,830 It's, you know, this election, that this election, it's something different. 384 00:47:02,830 --> 00:47:15,220 Whatever they promise. Actually, behind it is the only thing behind those promises is the ruthless desire for limitless power. 385 00:47:15,220 --> 00:47:22,390 And this is actually what maybe differs in today's fascism, because in, 386 00:47:22,390 --> 00:47:30,070 you know, during Nazi Germany, Hitler's fascist fascism or Mussolini's fascism. 387 00:47:30,070 --> 00:47:36,310 It was horrible. It was, you know, ridiculous. But still, they had the ideal. 388 00:47:36,310 --> 00:47:43,590 They had the ideal for humans. They wanted to create this ubermensch. 389 00:47:43,590 --> 00:47:51,010 You know, today's fascism. No ideals, no ideas and nothing to talk about. 390 00:47:51,010 --> 00:47:58,210 Except for very concrete, some false promises about very concrete, real political issues. 391 00:47:58,210 --> 00:48:03,790 So there is no ideology, which is so interesting to me because. 392 00:48:03,790 --> 00:48:08,140 Yeah. Let me stop you there, because there's so many questions piling in. 393 00:48:08,140 --> 00:48:12,220 It's always worry. I'm kind of oh, on the contrary. 394 00:48:12,220 --> 00:48:19,690 It's just you're provoking a lot more from our audience. And I've got a couple of comments from Latin America I'd like to share with you. 395 00:48:19,690 --> 00:48:26,800 William California writes, I feel immensely privileged to hear Adjaye, whose book Seven Steps has become a Bible for those who, 396 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,830 like me, are fighting to save our frail democracy in faraway Salvador. 397 00:48:31,830 --> 00:48:37,620 What happened from Alejandro Regg, who writes Very interesting perspective. 398 00:48:37,620 --> 00:48:42,040 Thank you very much. I am Venezuelan. And you're familiar with the Venezuelan case. 399 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:50,350 Of course, you know that over there we lived a very similar process since nineteen ninety nine, with many, if not all the steps you talk about. 400 00:48:50,350 --> 00:48:59,350 However, for the liberal media around the world, it took nearly 12 years to give credit to the voices of civil society and democratic resistance, 401 00:48:59,350 --> 00:49:04,150 even those coming from traditional figures on the left. So two questions. One. 402 00:49:04,150 --> 00:49:12,670 Do you think your emphases on right wing populism is necessary or could it not be just populism in the left and right? 403 00:49:12,670 --> 00:49:20,290 And to how does your perspective differ from the point of view of an Wookey who speaks about left to 404 00:49:20,290 --> 00:49:28,060 right transversal global trend from initially hegemonic democracies to clearcut authoritarianism? 405 00:49:28,060 --> 00:49:38,800 It's a lot to unpack and if you want me to repeat any of it but start. And yeah, I think I will pick a day in my case because it's always. 406 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:44,290 Yeah, it is always very telling to talk about Venezuela as well as Mexico, 407 00:49:44,290 --> 00:49:51,910 because recently I gave a talk for a Mexican audience and we were talking about this Left-Wing populism. 408 00:49:51,910 --> 00:50:00,100 And I told the same thing when I'm asked this question in the United States or, you know, Britain or, you know, in European countries. 409 00:50:00,100 --> 00:50:05,620 So what do you think about leftwing populism? I don't answer it because the context is different. 410 00:50:05,620 --> 00:50:17,770 But if I ask the question in Mexico, in Venezuela, I can answer because I know that that question is not therefore rhetorical, you know, Jumble Wombo. 411 00:50:17,770 --> 00:50:23,010 So I wrote a book about when I saw LA. It's in Turkish. 412 00:50:23,010 --> 00:50:29,280 I was there when Chavez came to power. I was in bodyguards and talking to grassroots movements. 413 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:40,110 And I think many people would agree with me that there is Chavez and there is the grassroots movement that brought Chavez to power. 414 00:50:40,110 --> 00:50:44,200 And let me tell you a funny story. I was there, I saw how it happened. 415 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:48,610 It wasn't Chavez. It was the people who did the change. 416 00:50:48,610 --> 00:50:53,300 And they hoped something completely different. I saw it with my own eyes. 417 00:50:53,300 --> 00:50:57,410 I wrote the book and then a few years later, I was giving a talk. 418 00:50:57,410 --> 00:51:06,350 And I think this is in how to lose a country as well. I was giving a talk with the ambassador of Venezuela in Ankara and suddenly. 419 00:51:06,350 --> 00:51:13,730 The guy was telling a completely different story. Chavez, as it is a, you know, hero, changed everything. 420 00:51:13,730 --> 00:51:18,320 Like Jesus Christ, he promised to his country. 421 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:22,940 He was telling a tale, a fairy tale. So I said, oh, God. 422 00:51:22,940 --> 00:51:26,540 Venezuelans, obviously, they lost it. They lost the country. 423 00:51:26,540 --> 00:51:33,520 They lost everything. It's Mexico as well. Mexico has such a leader like Chavez. 424 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:40,110 Maybe even worse than Chavez. He says that he's a leftist, but even Subcomandante Marcos hates him. 425 00:51:40,110 --> 00:51:45,420 So it can be a leftist if Subcomandante hates you. 426 00:51:45,420 --> 00:51:55,720 He's the moral high ground of all. And so being popular and being a populist are two different things. 427 00:51:55,720 --> 00:52:01,630 Neither Chavez nor the Mexican leader are leftist figures. 428 00:52:01,630 --> 00:52:05,710 In my point of view, they're just authoritarian leaders. 429 00:52:05,710 --> 00:52:20,120 But when this question asked to equalise the current danger of fascism with tiny bubbling hopes of socialism. 430 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:28,060 I am intimidated. Otherwise, we all know that neither Chavez nor I constantly. 431 00:52:28,060 --> 00:52:34,980 I cannot pronounce the name so I can memorise it. The Mexican leader and then a leftist. 432 00:52:34,980 --> 00:52:42,820 They are just a sample test is suffering from grandiosity syndrome. 433 00:52:42,820 --> 00:52:56,360 People got married. Garcia Marquez interviewed Chávez when he came to power and he said something like, oh, classic Latin American throat. 434 00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:00,760 OK, J.J., thank you so much for doing that. 435 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:08,440 We have to stop here. But I want to say that really an important aspect of your contribution tonight 436 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:12,820 was to show that the many issues that we have been discussing over the last 437 00:53:12,820 --> 00:53:19,150 eight weeks as part of our exploration of the dictatorship's syndrome is that 438 00:53:19,150 --> 00:53:25,000 they are absolutely not reduced to the region that some called the Middle East, 439 00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:36,350 but that they are really global problems. So it is a real call for vigilance for everyone, but also here in Europe. 440 00:53:36,350 --> 00:53:41,090 This was the last of our eight talks in this series. 441 00:53:41,090 --> 00:53:53,450 So time has come now to say goodbye. But we will be online again next term for a series of talks about the 10th anniversary of the Arab Spring. 442 00:53:53,450 --> 00:54:01,760 But until then, I wish you all happy holidays and I hope to meet again in a few weeks time. 443 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,707 Goodbye. Thank you, everyone. My.