1 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,330 With us tonight, I'm delighted to be welcoming Interphone, 2 00:00:10,330 --> 00:00:17,800 who is joining us from the Department for Development Studies and of course, having done a brilliant undergraduate degree at Oxford. 3 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:26,590 Our friendship dates back to that. And Ed will be here to introduce our speaker and lead the discussion with Julian. 4 00:00:26,590 --> 00:00:34,960 Now, you've all had the chance to view the film. And so I hope that you've come with your questions and can put them directly to the director. 5 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,830 But now, without further ado, if I could hand over to and take over. 6 00:00:38,830 --> 00:00:40,150 Thank you very much, Eugene. 7 00:00:40,150 --> 00:00:49,660 And thanks to everyone for coming to join us today, especially when so many of us are suffering close to Zoom's fatigue as we get to the end of time. 8 00:00:49,660 --> 00:00:56,530 So, as Eugene said, the focus for this evening is really the opportunity for all of you to speak directly to Jilian, 9 00:00:56,530 --> 00:01:02,500 to ask your questions and to share your thoughts and comments on this very thought provoking and informative film. 10 00:01:02,500 --> 00:01:05,950 How we're going to organise this evening is I'll introduce Gillian in a moment. 11 00:01:05,950 --> 00:01:07,750 She'll speak for a few minutes. 12 00:01:07,750 --> 00:01:14,210 Give us an overview and an introduction to her work and how she came to make this film and anything else she would like to share. 13 00:01:14,210 --> 00:01:17,890 And she and I will then have a brief conversation for a few minutes. 14 00:01:17,890 --> 00:01:27,400 And then we welcome and invite all of you attendees to submit your questions by simply entering there in the Q&A box. 15 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,930 And you can start doing that almost immediately so we can get through as many as possible. 16 00:01:31,930 --> 00:01:35,650 But now, without further ado, I will introduce Gillian. 17 00:01:35,650 --> 00:01:37,930 So as some of you will already have seen, 18 00:01:37,930 --> 00:01:45,610 Gillian Mosley is a first time director who has spent much of her working life producing documentaries for television during this time, 19 00:01:45,610 --> 00:01:52,210 her passion to make films with a strong social purpose and which is hybrid genres to connect different worlds, 20 00:01:52,210 --> 00:01:55,240 has grown, as has her interest in independent film. 21 00:01:55,240 --> 00:02:03,850 Gillian has created, developed and produced high end documentaries for the BBC, Channel four, ITV, PBS, Discovery History, amongst others. 22 00:02:03,850 --> 00:02:12,340 Quite an impressive list. In 2017, Gillian produced her first feature documentary, Manola The Boy Who May Choose Benefits. 23 00:02:12,340 --> 00:02:18,460 But of course, she is here this evening to speak about her latest documentary, The Tinderbox Out. 24 00:02:18,460 --> 00:02:24,070 Gillian. Over to you. Thank you, Anne, and lovely to be here. 25 00:02:24,070 --> 00:02:30,730 So I thought I'd just start with a little bit of an overview of how I came to make the film. 26 00:02:30,730 --> 00:02:40,150 I had decided that I really wanted to try and make a film that made a difference and a film that was close to my heart. 27 00:02:40,150 --> 00:02:48,790 And as a Jew who became very close friends with a Palestinian at quite an early age, 28 00:02:48,790 --> 00:03:04,300 Israel Palestine is a place situation that I have long been hyper aware of and have spent a lot of time travelling through, 29 00:03:04,300 --> 00:03:08,500 scratching my head about and talking to people a basin. 30 00:03:08,500 --> 00:03:14,650 Several things struck me. First of all, many friends, particularly here and in the States, 31 00:03:14,650 --> 00:03:21,190 who have asked me on a number revocations to explain to them the situation in Israel and Palestine. 32 00:03:21,190 --> 00:03:36,520 And I think there's a fair amount of either fatigue or just complete confusion around the issues that surround Israel Palestine, 33 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:42,190 which is understandable because, of course, it is complicated. 34 00:03:42,190 --> 00:03:53,140 But when I went to look for a film that I could recommend that could encapsulate the situation fairly quickly, I couldn't find one. 35 00:03:53,140 --> 00:04:03,100 So rather than refer my friends to 700 page tomes, which I've read and enjoyed, I, I thought I'd make that film. 36 00:04:03,100 --> 00:04:14,920 So the tinder box is my best attempt to show people who know nothing what is going on there. 37 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:19,240 And as you will see, it's very history driven. 38 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,850 Much of my career has been as a historical filmmaker. 39 00:04:23,850 --> 00:04:33,910 History is a complete passion of mine. And I strongly believe that any situation or almost any situation we find ourselves 40 00:04:33,910 --> 00:04:42,640 in today will be far easier to understand if we give it its historical context. 41 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:55,540 And Israel Palestine is absolutely that story, not least because probably in most places other than where I'm sitting right now, 42 00:04:55,540 --> 00:05:00,100 this story seems to have been lost in the mists of time. 43 00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:10,900 And certainly here in Britain, very few people that I speak to realise what sort of role Britain played in. 44 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:16,440 You know, the events that continue to play out to this day. 45 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:30,380 So that is the reasoning. And I also feel that or believe strongly that it's critical that people take this context into account when trying to. 46 00:05:30,380 --> 00:05:40,010 Address the situation in any positive manner. And a lot of the quote unquote, solutions that we've seen in the last. 47 00:05:40,010 --> 00:05:48,800 Twenty thirty years seem to me perhaps not to take this context into account as well as they might. 48 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,490 So film can punch through. 49 00:05:52,490 --> 00:05:55,040 It can get into the mainstream narrative. 50 00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:05,120 And I was certainly fervently hoping that this one does so that people actually start to talk about how and why this all started 51 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:16,940 happening and how that relates to today and indeed how that then shows us how we might be able to unpick some of what's happened. 52 00:06:16,940 --> 00:06:28,280 And move forward. And I think that's probably why I want to say at the moment to please ask questions. 53 00:06:28,280 --> 00:06:36,320 Thank you very much, Julian. And I'm obviously talking about the importance, the critical importance of history is music to my ears as a historian. 54 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:43,550 I'm sure the same goes for Eugene as well. I'm delighted to see we've already got questions actually starting to come in from the attendees. 55 00:06:43,550 --> 00:06:48,380 Just a reminder, you can post them in the Q&A box. If you haven't already. 56 00:06:48,380 --> 00:06:54,680 But before we get to those, I just have a couple of things I wanted to chat to you about myself. 57 00:06:54,680 --> 00:07:04,730 I mean, as you just said, so much of this film is engaged with and centred around the longer trajectory of the situation in Israel Palestine today. 58 00:07:04,730 --> 00:07:11,480 And one thing you say, I think, quite early on is that it dates much further back than you had initially realised. 59 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:18,260 I'm curious to hear in terms of your own reflections now having having done so much research and having made this film, 60 00:07:18,260 --> 00:07:28,870 how do you think we we might perceive the situation today differently if we do take this longer historical view? 61 00:07:28,870 --> 00:07:32,760 Oh, Beston, to start your very small points. There are different ways. 62 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:37,350 So I'm actually going to start. Not in Israel. In Palestine and I'm going to start in BRISON. 63 00:07:37,350 --> 00:07:47,410 And it's ironic in no small measure that we are looking at a period where. 64 00:07:47,410 --> 00:07:56,230 There is discussion around our colonial legacy on a number of levels with certain people in the government, 65 00:07:56,230 --> 00:08:02,590 certainly having suggested several years ago that we must return to the sunny uplands. 66 00:08:02,590 --> 00:08:10,420 And one has to assume that those are our empire. I'm not quite sure what else they're referring to. 67 00:08:10,420 --> 00:08:18,190 And then, of course, last year, we had a lot more discussion around dealing with our colonial legacy. 68 00:08:18,190 --> 00:08:27,880 So I think here in Britain, it's really important to understand what our colonial legacy produces. 69 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:37,120 And, you know, Israel Palestine is such a good example because so much continues to happen to this day. 70 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:43,620 So, yes, I think that's that's probably my. 71 00:08:43,620 --> 00:08:45,960 My answer, yes, yeah, I know, absolutely, 72 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:55,180 and it's very it's very effective in the in the film how you very deliberately trace it far back beyond the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, 73 00:08:55,180 --> 00:09:02,280 when you look at its roots really beyond that. Something else I was thinking as I watched as I watched the film, 74 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:09,450 was it so much of the politics around this issue and the contentions around it get 75 00:09:09,450 --> 00:09:14,430 really entangled with with who gets to speak and whose voices are heard as well? 76 00:09:14,430 --> 00:09:18,330 And obviously, there's a lot of power inequities caught up in that. 77 00:09:18,330 --> 00:09:27,500 So one thing I was curious to hear about for you as a filmmaker and to some degree as a storyteller, how did you choose whose voices to feature? 78 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:36,660 You speak to several individuals in this films. How did you approach who you wanted to include and maybe who you were going to end up excluding? 79 00:09:36,660 --> 00:09:39,600 Well, that was I mean, that was actually an incredibly interesting process. 80 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:45,630 So I started with my own red line, which is that I didn't want to include anybody who is actively, 81 00:09:45,630 --> 00:09:50,940 as far as we are aware, perpetrating violence at the moment. 82 00:09:50,940 --> 00:09:54,570 So that was the parameter. But beyond that, I did. 83 00:09:54,570 --> 00:10:03,360 I was originally looking for archetypes and I certainly found them within Israel, but within Palestine it was actually harder. 84 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:11,130 So, you know, originally I thought I was going to get myself a left wing Jew, a right wing Jew, a left wing Palestinian and a right wing Palestinian. 85 00:10:11,130 --> 00:10:16,230 And the the Jews, as I said, came fairly quickly and easily. 86 00:10:16,230 --> 00:10:25,380 And, you know, they are who they are. And in Palestine, I don't know, you know, how you would define the people I spoke to. 87 00:10:25,380 --> 00:10:32,930 But what I discovered is, is pretty much everybody that I was talking to. 88 00:10:32,930 --> 00:10:39,260 Without going to great lengths to find people who were different from them, 89 00:10:39,260 --> 00:10:48,230 had very similar views about this subject, which is certainly not the case with the Israelis. 90 00:10:48,230 --> 00:10:58,160 So that was a real learning curve for me. What I didn't do, and I'm very aware I didn't do it, is I didn't go into Palestinian villages. 91 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:07,640 You know, I was mostly in cities. And had I gone into Palestinian villages, maybe I would have gotten a different view. 92 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,020 Was there any particular reason you did it or was it more kind of practical restraints? 93 00:11:12,020 --> 00:11:20,510 It was more practical and yeah, it was more practical logistical issues. 94 00:11:20,510 --> 00:11:22,510 I'm kind of a related question. 95 00:11:22,510 --> 00:11:28,730 Something else that came to me when I was watching is something I think anyone who engages with this area grapples with. 96 00:11:28,730 --> 00:11:30,890 I know I definitely grapple with this in my research, 97 00:11:30,890 --> 00:11:39,350 in my teaching is the fact that this subject is so controversial that even the very words you use can be loaded and can be seen to be significant. 98 00:11:39,350 --> 00:11:42,710 Right. The very terminology is contested. So it's curious again, 99 00:11:42,710 --> 00:11:50,870 how did you approach that and how did you grapple with it when choosing what kind of language you were going to use very carefully? 100 00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:57,950 I mean, there's one section of the film that I think was actually rewritten 17 times. 101 00:11:57,950 --> 00:12:10,130 And, you know, we've come out of this and it will not surprise you to know that I have been both lauded and abused by both sides, 102 00:12:10,130 --> 00:12:19,910 not by people from by side. So, you know, I've had to scream at me, ask me if I'm worried about my safety and others who love it. 103 00:12:19,910 --> 00:12:24,050 And I've had Palestinians who've said this is the film all Palestinians have been 104 00:12:24,050 --> 00:12:28,910 waiting for and others who've said no Palestinian will ever watch this film. 105 00:12:28,910 --> 00:12:36,230 So for somebody who's used to making broadcast shows, that's actually a way in as far as I'm concerned, 106 00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:43,370 because as long as we're offending everybody equally, then I think I've done my show out of curiosity. 107 00:12:43,370 --> 00:12:47,370 And obviously, I don't have to tell us that. What was the section that was ratio 17 took off? 108 00:12:47,370 --> 00:12:55,820 Hamas and Hezbollah? Yes. I am going to go to a question from the attendees. 109 00:12:55,820 --> 00:13:02,150 Now, please do continue to post them in the Q&A box and then I'll I'll chip in as we go through the question from Chenda AM, 110 00:13:02,150 --> 00:13:08,870 a pilot who is MSA student in migration studies in the Department of International Development. 111 00:13:08,870 --> 00:13:14,390 And he asks, How do you think your positions as a British Jewish woman differ from those of 112 00:13:14,390 --> 00:13:18,990 Israeli Jews who live with the Israeli Palestinian dynamic in their day to day? 113 00:13:18,990 --> 00:13:27,140 And did you feel any resentment from Israeli Jews who might feel that your parachuting in from outside to pass judgement on their livelihoods, 114 00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:31,490 land situations? So, I mean, that's an interesting question, 115 00:13:31,490 --> 00:13:37,760 because there are lots of things that I learnt about Jews while I was making this film that I hadn't necessarily known. 116 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,060 So on I don't particularly practise anymore. 117 00:13:41,060 --> 00:13:49,340 And we I grew up in the States and so I stopped going to synagogue care when I was about 10 other than in summers. 118 00:13:49,340 --> 00:13:57,470 And so I hadn't quite appreciated how conservative the British Jewish community is until I started making this film. 119 00:13:57,470 --> 00:14:05,200 And now I know that's not to say that they're all conservative. And obviously, you know, I, I know a lot, too, who are not. 120 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:10,370 But, you know, certainly the synagogue where I grew up, where, you know, 121 00:14:10,370 --> 00:14:22,920 my forefathers were chief rabbis and translated the prayer book into English for the first time are not receptive to the messages in this film. 122 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:28,280 So that was that was a bit of a shock. And in Israel, I found the opposite, actually. 123 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:34,020 I found a lot of people who were quite willing to go there. 124 00:14:34,020 --> 00:14:39,620 And in a way, we're more chilled about the situation. But there is a caveat there. 125 00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:49,610 And the caveat is that even the most left wing Jews were. 126 00:14:49,610 --> 00:14:56,690 Asked me if I was worried about my security when I was sort of wandering around the West Bank and, you know, 127 00:14:56,690 --> 00:15:05,730 we had some Israeli partners and when I asked if we could go into Gaza, they just said, no, no, no, definitely not too difficult. 128 00:15:05,730 --> 00:15:13,650 Well. So, you know, I knew I probably had way too much material for this film anyway, so I didn't push that. 129 00:15:13,650 --> 00:15:27,800 But I think the separation wall, unfortunately, has done way too good a job of on making it difficult for people to actually see each other as people, 130 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,450 regardless of whether they agree with Israeli governmental policies or not. 131 00:15:32,450 --> 00:15:40,300 And that's very sad. Eugene, your your hand is up. 132 00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:49,910 Never one to miss the opportunity to put a question to a filmmaker. Jillian, I really enjoyed the way that you brought archival footage. 133 00:15:49,910 --> 00:15:52,870 The artistry of your editing, though, 134 00:15:52,870 --> 00:16:00,550 is when you have archival footage with contemporary footage running the very same kind of images of soldiers going down the street. 135 00:16:00,550 --> 00:16:07,180 But it's you know, it's really soldiers here, British soldiers there or there were there was something wonderful about the way you cut and 136 00:16:07,180 --> 00:16:13,480 spliced past and present to give you a sense of we've been in this market for 100 years now. 137 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,710 So could you talk a little bit about the image matching that went into the filmmaking? 138 00:16:17,710 --> 00:16:21,790 Because it really is striking. Thank you. Yes. 139 00:16:21,790 --> 00:16:27,430 I mean, I do genuinely believe that, you know, we are exactly where we were 100 years ago, 140 00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:35,070 more or less, with couple of minor things, you know, details different. 141 00:16:35,070 --> 00:16:42,750 And I just I knew I wanted to do that, so I set about looking for that imagery. 142 00:16:42,750 --> 00:16:49,590 You know, I just thought I wanted to show how. Nothing has changed as visually as I possibly can. 143 00:16:49,590 --> 00:16:57,330 But, you know, one of the most joyful aspects of making this film was the amount of time I spent with the archive. 144 00:16:57,330 --> 00:17:04,540 And, you know, the archives available is extraordinary. And. 145 00:17:04,540 --> 00:17:11,110 It really tells the story. And, you know, it's also pretty striking that with two exceptions, 146 00:17:11,110 --> 00:17:19,810 I really struggled when looking for images of people who were obviously Jewish prior to nineteen. 147 00:17:19,810 --> 00:17:31,160 And, you know, there were only two of those and everything else were you know, we're not much more Arab looking people. 148 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,500 Of course, they could be Jews, but. Yes. 149 00:17:35,500 --> 00:17:43,270 So, you know, I found that an extraordinary thing to be a actually matching images can be quite challenging. 150 00:17:43,270 --> 00:17:47,940 I mean, I'm a regular reader of Private Eye, and there's always that comic, you know, 151 00:17:47,940 --> 00:17:53,500 where they they they take, you know, famous person because the images, they look alike. 152 00:17:53,500 --> 00:18:00,160 Or I think about the way George W. Bush was compared to a chimpanzee at certain photographs. 153 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:07,190 So you're like somebody spent time finding the image that looked like Bush's face in the face of a chimpanzee. 154 00:18:07,190 --> 00:18:10,010 How did you go about actually matching your images? 155 00:18:10,010 --> 00:18:19,340 Did you have contemporary footage that you had already gathered and then you went to the archives looking for something that was the same feel, 156 00:18:19,340 --> 00:18:23,900 the same Drowner Bocian? Lots of archives and I'm sorry. 157 00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:29,780 This is a trade secret that they work very helpfully label themselves. 158 00:18:29,780 --> 00:18:35,660 So you might get soldiers with barbed wire or soldiers in jeeps. 159 00:18:35,660 --> 00:18:42,120 So I had some help. Much as I'd like to think much more than that. 160 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:55,250 Some. Yes. And, you know, I mean, it didn't take me so long to come up with a list of contenders for that less time than than you'd think. 161 00:18:55,250 --> 00:19:02,270 The other thing that I should have said at the beginning that I forgot to say is that an hour and a half's worth of history has actually 162 00:19:02,270 --> 00:19:11,800 come out of the film because we just out there is a limit to what people can take on board when they're watching a 90 minute film. 163 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:17,480 And I think the film is already potentially pushing those those boundaries. 164 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,110 So, yes. Yeah, 165 00:19:21,110 --> 00:19:25,730 I'm sorry not to take more credit for that than take the credit silly and take 166 00:19:25,730 --> 00:19:30,230 the credit and you still say a story is always going to push you for history. 167 00:19:30,230 --> 00:19:35,690 I was wondering also whether there was a generational aspect that you originally had wanted to explore, 168 00:19:35,690 --> 00:19:41,720 because one gets a sense that you were looking at reaching out to people of different generations. 169 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:49,190 Were you curious to see whether that was part of the dynamic? Is it getting harder? Is the line getting harder and people's views? 170 00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:55,150 Or is there hope that the younger generation where's that going? I mean, that, again, was interesting. 171 00:19:55,150 --> 00:20:05,450 I mean, you know, in terms of my main characters, the people who cropped up are all, you know, certainly over 35 for the four main characters. 172 00:20:05,450 --> 00:20:11,560 And, you know, obviously Israel's much older than that in terms of the Vox Pops. 173 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:17,710 We literally stopped people in the streets for 85 percent of them. 174 00:20:17,710 --> 00:20:28,510 And it was a question of who would speak to us. But I did get a fairly strong impression of a couple of archetypes again. 175 00:20:28,510 --> 00:20:42,470 And I think they're. There were a number of of younger Israelis who were far more Right-Wing than I was expecting. 176 00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:48,160 So when I was saying that, I was I was pleasantly surprised by Israeli Amstutz. 177 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:54,290 But that is probably above a certain age, below a certain age. 178 00:20:54,290 --> 00:21:00,800 There were some people that I encountered who, you know, just weren't interested. 179 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:07,490 And then there were some people who who were like the guy in the red t shirt. 180 00:21:07,490 --> 00:21:12,350 And the thing about the guy in the red T-shirt, that is a bit. 181 00:21:12,350 --> 00:21:21,800 Well, the thing about the guy in the red T-shirt is that he is actually a teacher. So that needs to be borne in mind as well. 182 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:30,260 And I guess if you think about who's been ruling governing Israel for the last several decades, 183 00:21:30,260 --> 00:21:37,550 it makes sense that perhaps people have swung to the right in their attitudes. 184 00:21:37,550 --> 00:21:50,000 Having said that. You know, Netanyahu is on, you know, election numbers at six and he still can't get a majority. 185 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,210 You know, he's been in in purgatory for several years at this point. 186 00:21:54,210 --> 00:21:59,070 And those demonstrations are getting louder. 187 00:21:59,070 --> 00:22:04,120 So perhaps things or, you know, things are changing. 188 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:13,980 I'm not sure. Actually, I am going to take my chair's prerogative to piggyback on this because I had a related question. 189 00:22:13,980 --> 00:22:16,620 I mean, the films obviously very subconsciously reflective. 190 00:22:16,620 --> 00:22:24,710 And one thing you talk about is how you hadn't actually been to Israel for quite a long time when you came to make this film. 191 00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:28,830 You had your own apprehensions about going there in view of that. 192 00:22:28,830 --> 00:22:37,350 I'm quite curious to hear your your observations on how you found Israel had changed because since your last visit began, 193 00:22:37,350 --> 00:22:46,660 because so often we hear increasingly nowadays that it has become more right wing, more religious. 194 00:22:46,660 --> 00:22:51,560 Much more overtly anti Palestinian in times of both the Israeli state and Israeli society. 195 00:22:51,560 --> 00:23:01,840 I'm curious of your experiences. You observe those changes as well, or whether you found something, maybe Messiah? 196 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:08,560 Well, I mean, you know, the big one of the biggest changes was the optics. 197 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:18,100 So, you know, the first time, you know, I went to Israel with my grandmother when I was 13 and then when I was 21 with a bunch of uni friends, 198 00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:23,680 our graduation trip, we took a bus from Cairo to Jerusalem. 199 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:28,120 And then a couple of years later with my sister, 200 00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:43,510 we took a taxi from Jerusalem to the Allenby Bridge and then went into Jordan and went and did a trip with a friend from Jordan. 201 00:23:43,510 --> 00:23:49,060 And so what you see there is not that freedom anymore. 202 00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:54,280 I was there again, just as they were starting to build the wall. 203 00:23:54,280 --> 00:24:03,570 The walls are everywhere now. And, you know, for me, I think they're just they're metaphors for the situation, 204 00:24:03,570 --> 00:24:09,000 and so I think, you know, for me, it was quite difficult to get past that. 205 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:15,510 And when the lovely, well-meaning left wing Israelis were asking me if I was scared, you know, 206 00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:21,180 I sort of felt like I no, you know, Palestinians have two heads in pink and purple like adults. 207 00:24:21,180 --> 00:24:27,900 I mean, you know, what do you think is kind of, you know, going into Nablus or, you know, whatever it is? 208 00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:34,420 And, you know, obviously we've got some looks because it's not that often, I suppose that. 209 00:24:34,420 --> 00:24:38,860 You know, people who were obviously western with cameras go, go wandering around. 210 00:24:38,860 --> 00:24:55,430 But, yeah. So I think there was that and I don't think I got enmeshed enough to notice or talk to many right wingers per say. 211 00:24:55,430 --> 00:25:06,620 But the other thing is, I had never been to Hebron before and I was horrified. 212 00:25:06,620 --> 00:25:13,060 I mean, I've never seen anything like varsities. Absolutely. 213 00:25:13,060 --> 00:25:18,430 You know, it's it's the symbol of the entire situation. 214 00:25:18,430 --> 00:25:27,140 As far. You know, as far as I. I experienced it and, you know, we encountered or, you know, 215 00:25:27,140 --> 00:25:35,000 we were filming Isa and he encountered this settler who apparently is notorious and she's so 216 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:41,570 notorious that I was talking to other friends back here about her and they all knew her name. 217 00:25:41,570 --> 00:25:49,910 But it was like watching a seven year old playground bully her, passing a succession of people. 218 00:25:49,910 --> 00:25:59,120 So she started with a serve and she started on the school teachers, and then she started with the ecumenical accompaniment people. 219 00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:05,360 And she's sort of champing at them and, you know, you know, trying to take their phones because they were trying to film. 220 00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:13,020 And I can you know, that that was that was horrifying. 221 00:26:13,020 --> 00:26:22,350 Did you kind of soft-boiled Hebrew on, though? I mean, in a sense, that story does need to be told, because the way in which the settler community, 222 00:26:22,350 --> 00:26:29,660 the heart of the old town of Hebron has bifurcating the city and literally terrorised the Arab inhabitants 223 00:26:29,660 --> 00:26:34,570 is one that goes beyond the wildest imaginings of the Western audience you're trying to reach. 224 00:26:34,570 --> 00:26:36,200 Why did you pull the punch of that? 225 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:43,090 Because it sounds like you actually had the kind of material that might have conveyed even more strongly the horror that is Hebron. 226 00:26:43,090 --> 00:26:47,630 We didn't. I'm going to probably shouldn't say this. 227 00:26:47,630 --> 00:26:58,640 I was I sat down with each set having this encounter, and my camera man was very safely back up, quite high above on a long lens. 228 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:07,370 And I thought he was filming everything, but he didn't. So so we don't have as much as I would have liked. 229 00:27:07,370 --> 00:27:12,230 I think that somebody is actually making a film about Hebron you would be pleased to hear at the moment. 230 00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:15,800 You're right. It, of course, is a story that needs to be told. 231 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:24,230 But I think the other side of it is that, you know, when all is said and done, this is a film about the British mandate. 232 00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:31,230 And much as I would have liked to have gone on further. 233 00:27:31,230 --> 00:27:34,790 You know, first of all, we would have need to needed to film differently. 234 00:27:34,790 --> 00:27:43,700 And we've been quite tricky in terms of everything else we were trying to do. 235 00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:52,840 I have a question coming in now from Benjamin Brown, who asks, Do you believe that by focussing on the historic roots of the conflict, 236 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,210 contemporary issues, for example, 237 00:27:55,210 --> 00:28:05,650 regarding security concerns can adequately be taken into consideration when trying to understand the Israeli narrative. 238 00:28:05,650 --> 00:28:15,520 I'm not sure I quite understand. So I as I understand it, but Benjamin, feel free to let me know in the chat box if I'm getting this wrong. 239 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,950 Is there, I suppose, is there a. 240 00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:27,080 A risk that if we focus on the historical roots of the conflict, we might do so to the point of obscuring contemporary issues, 241 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:34,050 such as the fact that many Israelis today have heartfelt concerns about issues around security. 242 00:28:34,050 --> 00:28:41,300 And are we going to risk overshadowing those concerns and therefore not being able to understand the Israeli narrative today? 243 00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:45,100 Benjamin, feel free to write if I've got that wrong. He says, I got it right. 244 00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:55,250 I'm with you. I mean, as it happens, I've just been reading this book called Human Kind, which is by a Dutch academic, 245 00:28:55,250 --> 00:29:02,090 and he's talking about how there is a narrative that most people are basically evil, 246 00:29:02,090 --> 00:29:12,800 but that when you look at research on that, it it doesn't stack up and that his his contention is that most people are basically good. 247 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:19,520 I think that the security issues for me, I'm not saying there are real security issues. 248 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:33,110 But to me, a lot of them arise from the historical context directly and from a misconstrue all of the historical context. 249 00:29:33,110 --> 00:29:39,620 So I'm not saying that there are no security problems facing Israelis. 250 00:29:39,620 --> 00:29:45,140 I'm certainly not saying that there are no security problems facing Palestinians. 251 00:29:45,140 --> 00:29:51,260 But I I'm not sure that the patterns are any different than what was happening in the history. 252 00:29:51,260 --> 00:29:56,610 And I think if you look at the history that tells you. 253 00:29:56,610 --> 00:30:02,600 Why they're happening and if you know why they're happening, it's easier to address them. 254 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:12,020 Sorry, I'm not even sure that makes sense. But if the sort of long, long winded way round it does, does that answer your question? 255 00:30:12,020 --> 00:30:21,820 Benjamin? We'll be waiting for Benjamin to type in a or a day, and he says it does. 256 00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:29,500 There were two points there. I think you were bringing history in to the dinosaur experience of Israeli Jews. 257 00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:39,580 And it both times that made the people you were talking to very uncomfortable and once was when you asked Israel to compare Gaza to a ghetto. 258 00:30:39,580 --> 00:30:48,280 And the second was at the very end when you asked the young man who basically denied the Palestinians had a claver, a right, 259 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:54,430 whether that was in any way reminiscent of what the Jewish people experienced when their legitimate clients had been, 260 00:30:54,430 --> 00:30:59,170 as it were, not recognised by the international community or what not. And he's just silent. 261 00:30:59,170 --> 00:31:08,410 So I wonder whether there's something in the history which is still too raw a nerve for Israelis 262 00:31:08,410 --> 00:31:14,350 when their experience in diaspora is being compared to the Palestinian experience of knuckler. 263 00:31:14,350 --> 00:31:24,960 I mean, I think you're I think you're right. But I think because the history has been so. 264 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:33,060 Swirled up and churn churned up and sparks out, not necessarily in a comprehensible form, 265 00:31:33,060 --> 00:31:39,390 so that it's almost impossible for most people to understand what happened. 266 00:31:39,390 --> 00:31:46,660 That. Those concerns are divorced from the context again. 267 00:31:46,660 --> 00:31:53,550 I'm sorry I keep coming back to the context. And, you know, Israel was interesting because Israel is actually a historian. 268 00:31:53,550 --> 00:31:57,870 He loves history. And in a certain way, he's very well informed. 269 00:31:57,870 --> 00:32:07,350 It's just that he he's got work arounds that he has devised in in his head and. 270 00:32:07,350 --> 00:32:11,790 I mean, you know, psychologically, it's fascinating because, of course, you would you know, 271 00:32:11,790 --> 00:32:19,320 if you know what happened, if you know that there were only 10 percent of the population is Jewish in 1917. 272 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:29,270 And yet here we are today. You'd have to come up with with something. 273 00:32:29,270 --> 00:32:33,450 I I don't know, because I didn't talk in more depth to door. 274 00:32:33,450 --> 00:32:43,230 But my guess is that the context for him is something that's probably quite different to what I see as the historical context. 275 00:32:43,230 --> 00:32:49,530 And therefore, he starts from a different place. And so, yes, of course, it's completely raw. 276 00:32:49,530 --> 00:32:56,940 Whether people are ready to sort of face this openly is it is another question. 277 00:32:56,940 --> 00:33:03,370 That's that's quite an interesting point you make, Father, about the location where people's narratives begin, 278 00:33:03,370 --> 00:33:08,220 because it's it's, as you say, probably very consequential. 279 00:33:08,220 --> 00:33:15,670 If you have someone like Dore, let's say is his personal narrative, perhaps we don't know, 280 00:33:15,670 --> 00:33:24,190 but perhaps begins with his assistance in Europe facing incredibly brutal existential anti-Semitic persecution. 281 00:33:24,190 --> 00:33:31,950 And it's always some kind of part of Kuwait if his narrative doesn't actually begin in Israel Palestine. 282 00:33:31,950 --> 00:33:34,470 Well, actually, actually, that's an interesting point as well. 283 00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:41,820 So Dore's family, first of all, apparently his family is very left wing and they are Arab Jews. 284 00:33:41,820 --> 00:33:53,580 And actually, I did run across a nice handful of Arab Jews who are far more conservative than I am of the masses, you know. 285 00:33:53,580 --> 00:33:58,300 And in theory, you know, one on one side of my family where our Jews as well. 286 00:33:58,300 --> 00:34:03,960 But we were in Spain. So it's a different, different narrative. 287 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:18,140 But, yes. So I think there's a rudeness there as well because, you know, basically. 288 00:34:18,140 --> 00:34:23,110 DuSable obviously lived in the Arab world for a very, very long time and very happily. 289 00:34:23,110 --> 00:34:30,310 And then all of a sudden they're not welcome anymore. And so there's this sort of. 290 00:34:30,310 --> 00:34:38,500 Double issue to contend with. One is why am I no longer welcome in Morocco or wherever it is? 291 00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:42,340 And then if you actually want to answer that question, 292 00:34:42,340 --> 00:34:52,540 you might have to look at the correlation of timing between Israel's declaration as a state and the time when you became not welcome. 293 00:34:52,540 --> 00:35:01,440 And I would imagine that Max is a very different, difficult place for some people to go to. 294 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:10,500 We have a question coming in now from Paul Lewis, who asks, Are you more or less optimistic that there can be a solution in the Middle East? 295 00:35:10,500 --> 00:35:21,000 In a post Trump world? I have to tell a story about Trump as well and how he came to be in the film. 296 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:35,030 I had remarked to my editor very innocently that I never actually listened to anything that Trump said while he was in office because I just couldn't, 297 00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:40,620 you know, I just read about it after. And so next thing I know, he's stopped Trump. 298 00:35:40,620 --> 00:35:47,370 And of course, when you make a film, you have to watch it and re watch it. 299 00:35:47,370 --> 00:36:00,420 I think the answer to that question I'm actually not unoptimistic having made the film, which is a separate thing to the question that Paul has asked. 300 00:36:00,420 --> 00:36:06,090 I think it depends on whether Biden is ready to engage with the context, 301 00:36:06,090 --> 00:36:16,260 because I just genuinely believe that this will not be properly solved until people take the context into account. 302 00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:21,090 So, you know, which again, is why I've made this film. I really would like this. 303 00:36:21,090 --> 00:36:27,990 This story tabled front and centre so that anybody who comes to deal with. 304 00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:36,230 Israel Palestine and try to make a positive difference actually starts from the history rather than, 305 00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:44,900 you know, random perceptions of the history which often bear absolutely no resemblance to what's recorded. 306 00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:53,850 Good, maybe two, maybe. OK. Well, it's maybe building on that it might be. 307 00:36:53,850 --> 00:36:58,440 It might be interesting to talk a little bit about, you know, and you alluded to this earlier. 308 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:03,840 All of these initiatives that have been put forward in the name of peace over the last 30 years or so. 309 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:09,150 And you've said and I would largely agree with you, that they've often been done almost a historically. 310 00:37:09,150 --> 00:37:17,620 They've been formulated historically. But I wonder when you think about that, what comes to mind as one or two, you know, concrete cases, 311 00:37:17,620 --> 00:37:26,490 whether you would say the history hasn't been put front and centre or the context has not been put front and centre and what that's actually meant. 312 00:37:26,490 --> 00:37:32,880 Well, Donald Trump and Jared Kushner be prime example. 313 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:39,720 The problem is I probably back in 92, I was not that interested. 314 00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:50,770 You know, I wasn't that interested. And so I would have to go back and read up very comprehensively on the Oslo situation in order to answer that. 315 00:37:50,770 --> 00:37:59,610 The perception I've gained, however, is that the Americans were aware but couldn't quite navigate past it. 316 00:37:59,610 --> 00:38:06,320 Whether they tried or not is another question, and I may be completely wrong about that. 317 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:12,400 So, yes. No follow up ban yet they're in effect. 318 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:25,400 The question about where to go. Is maybe one of the questions you don't answer in the movie, you leave us in the end with a rather soft message. 319 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:31,230 Of peoples who have to come to appreciate what life looks like if you step on the other person's shoes. 320 00:38:31,230 --> 00:38:39,000 But you don't really come down on what that's going to mean in terms of resolving the political aspirations of the two sides. 321 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:45,030 And you make a passing reference to a two state solution looking increasingly unlikely. 322 00:38:45,030 --> 00:38:48,870 You never actually pronounce on the one state alternative. 323 00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:54,900 And I don't know that there is anything besides one or two states except apartheid and continued occupation. 324 00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:58,890 So the status quo as I guess, option three. 325 00:38:58,890 --> 00:39:02,790 So, you know, again, given the audience you want to reach, Julian, 326 00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:08,010 I don't know whether you don't want to make a stronger statement at the end here about where you think a 327 00:39:08,010 --> 00:39:14,100 resolution lies because you can't actually expect people to just say there is equal merit to both claims. 328 00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:17,850 You know, Jews and and Palestine's or not could agree on that. 329 00:39:17,850 --> 00:39:26,220 So there's going to have to be something of a political concession or what's in a what is the end game here. 330 00:39:26,220 --> 00:39:36,930 So we we made a deliberate decision not to because, as I said, this film is really for, you know, 331 00:39:36,930 --> 00:39:47,880 my often Anglo-Saxon liberal British friends and my American friends who are confused don't understand it, 332 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:59,410 and when they see the film are absolutely horrified. So all I wanted was to get people's attention and understanding and. 333 00:39:59,410 --> 00:40:01,660 At the very end of the film is our Web site. 334 00:40:01,660 --> 00:40:12,610 And on our Web site are is is a fair amount and that is really that includes sort of how you can engage with this issue. 335 00:40:12,610 --> 00:40:22,760 And. I think, you know, I don't want to tell people what to think, I want them to form their own conclusions from the film. 336 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:29,240 Do I have an opinion? Yes, I have an opinion. And some of that comes up in what you can do. 337 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:35,060 So I sort feel for me personally as somebody who doesn't have skin in the game. 338 00:40:35,060 --> 00:40:38,360 This is not my decision, you know. 339 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:44,030 I don't get to choose what people who currently live in Palestine, in Israel. 340 00:40:44,030 --> 00:40:55,740 Should want. That's their choice. I personally am a massive fan of citizens assemblies. 341 00:40:55,740 --> 00:41:05,580 And I would love to see a proper independent fulsom Israel palace, Israelis and Palestinians, 342 00:41:05,580 --> 00:41:11,610 citizens assembly process along the lines of what happens in Ireland all the time. 343 00:41:11,610 --> 00:41:23,240 Given that what happens in Ireland is often on a par with the level of emoted, miss, you know. 344 00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:27,300 Yeah. It's just not for me to decide. Two states, one state. 345 00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:30,480 I mean, you know, as a historian and only as a historian, 346 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:36,840 I lean towards one state because kanon for its entire history was a single melting pot state. 347 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:45,270 But I'm not sure that's enough of a reason to impose that on people living there today. 348 00:41:45,270 --> 00:41:51,710 You know, I think the opposition, the people you talked to, did they come down one side or the other? 349 00:41:51,710 --> 00:41:58,860 I mean, just as a little aside, I was at a meeting of Israeli and Palestinian businessmen on the sidelines of the Davos meeting. 350 00:41:58,860 --> 00:42:00,140 They'd been meeting for years. 351 00:42:00,140 --> 00:42:05,990 This is obviously one of those little things the Klaus Schwab thought was his solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict is bring business together, 352 00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:16,490 very trumpet's solution. And they were talking about a generation gap in Palestine where if you were under 30, you no longer believed in two states. 353 00:42:16,490 --> 00:42:18,860 You wanted one state with full Israeli rights. 354 00:42:18,860 --> 00:42:25,130 You thought that Palestinian politics failed and you just wanted to get on with your life and bury nationalism. 355 00:42:25,130 --> 00:42:30,090 And so these were all people of an older generation who were very wedded to a two state solution. 356 00:42:30,090 --> 00:42:36,640 And their whole point was, if we don't deliver something fast, you know, we're losing the younger generation. 357 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:41,210 And so I'm just wondering whether the people you talk to reflected on these sorts of dynamics, 358 00:42:41,210 --> 00:42:48,620 again, intergenerational or whether there is a sense of one or other be more or less realistic. 359 00:42:48,620 --> 00:42:54,470 You may not edit it into the film, but just from your conversations with people. Where do you think the trend on that one it's going? 360 00:42:54,470 --> 00:43:07,310 So interestingly, Israel madad the settler ones, the single state, and would be willing to be a Palestinian citizen. 361 00:43:07,310 --> 00:43:15,380 In order to stay where he is. If it was a city, if it was a two state. 362 00:43:15,380 --> 00:43:22,760 I didn't talk to. I didn't talk to anybody else about it. 363 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,510 I mean, you know, money's just coasting. She's living day to day. 364 00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:36,270 They've got so many problems. She just wants it to stop. So, yeah, I mean, what what's. 365 00:43:36,270 --> 00:43:38,950 Interesting is I can sort of see what you're saying, 366 00:43:38,950 --> 00:43:46,860 but I'm I think it's only part of the picture because I certainly know plenty of lefties here over 367 00:43:46,860 --> 00:43:54,140 a certain age and please don't take this amiss who are completely wedded to the two state solution. 368 00:43:54,140 --> 00:44:00,680 And then the other thing that I've noticed is that the Palestinian pro Palestinian contingency that 369 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:08,180 I'm falling afoul law via the anti normalises are also very much in favour of a two state solution, 370 00:44:08,180 --> 00:44:11,250 and they tend to be much younger. 371 00:44:11,250 --> 00:44:20,310 So, you know, as against, you know, I certainly know plenty of Jews and Palestinians who are also young, who want to see a single state. 372 00:44:20,310 --> 00:44:28,710 But I think they're it's it's the it's not the age so much as the who they you know, who they represent. 373 00:44:28,710 --> 00:44:34,350 Certainly, as far as I found, there's an up of forthcoming book, actually, 374 00:44:34,350 --> 00:44:41,640 by an academic who did her HD at Oxford in international development a couple of years ago, 375 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:47,580 and specifically a study of this these into generational shifts amongst Palestinians. 376 00:44:47,580 --> 00:44:55,590 And she conducted a lot of fieldwork in East Jerusalem where she found and this this ties in with what you were saying, Eugene. 377 00:44:55,590 --> 00:45:01,980 She found that a lot of the younger generation of Palestinians in East Jerusalem are now applying for citizenship for Israeli citizenship. 378 00:45:01,980 --> 00:45:06,570 And this is something completely taboo amongst the older generations. 379 00:45:06,570 --> 00:45:12,180 And it's a very interesting study of not only changing views on the way forward, 380 00:45:12,180 --> 00:45:15,950 but also changing views on what it actually means to hold Israeli citizenship, 381 00:45:15,950 --> 00:45:19,710 that amongst the younger generation, this is is no longer seen as some kind of Sell-Out. 382 00:45:19,710 --> 00:45:27,180 It's actually seen almost as liberatory because it's a way to claim your rights. 383 00:45:27,180 --> 00:45:33,270 Just a reminder to everyone. We've got Julian for a few more minutes, so please do take the opportunity to post your questions in the Q and A box. 384 00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:38,730 I know my students in Jordan two hours of me talking about Israel Palestine this week. 385 00:45:38,730 --> 00:45:42,930 So is your chance to hear someone else talk about it for a change? 386 00:45:42,930 --> 00:45:50,340 I had a question or I guess to some degree sort of the flip side of Eugene's question about the way forward, 387 00:45:50,340 --> 00:45:54,670 which is I was really struck that I think was the beginning of the documentary. 388 00:45:54,670 --> 00:46:00,000 You say, you know, well, everyone says they want peace, so everyone wants peace. 389 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:05,550 What why does it remain so elusive? That's kind of the core question. And I'm I'm just curious to hear. 390 00:46:05,550 --> 00:46:12,150 Now, having made the film, how or how you might reflect on that question or how you feel about it now, 391 00:46:12,150 --> 00:46:15,960 not that there's obviously an easy answer, but what you might say to that now. 392 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:27,720 Well, that you know, I'm sorry, because it does sound very simplistic, but it's what what Eugene picked up on earlier, which I do say. 393 00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:34,330 I do think, as I said, that the wall has been. 394 00:46:34,330 --> 00:46:43,350 It has done its job far more than simply as a physical barrier and has made understanding of the other. 395 00:46:43,350 --> 00:46:50,460 So much harder than it was, you know, even even 20 years ago. 396 00:46:50,460 --> 00:46:58,310 And I think that's. That's a problem. You know. 397 00:46:58,310 --> 00:47:04,340 I mean, you know, I have said to several of the Israelis that I was with, you know, 398 00:47:04,340 --> 00:47:11,210 not just the ones on film when filming, you go to the West Bank, go and meet people, go and chat to people. 399 00:47:11,210 --> 00:47:16,100 And some of them are actually scared. They're really scared. 400 00:47:16,100 --> 00:47:25,610 And that is because, you know, the government propaganda campaign or whatever has convinced them that these people are different to that. 401 00:47:25,610 --> 00:47:33,700 And then, you know, on the Palestinian. Side, you know, again, there's this there's this kind of alien group, 402 00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:40,820 people over on the other side, if you will, that they they only get to see as soldiers and. 403 00:47:40,820 --> 00:47:46,700 You know, how in that circumstances is this situation going to resolve? 404 00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:51,290 I mean, that has to stop. People have to have to know each other. 405 00:47:51,290 --> 00:47:56,140 And, you know, I know it sounds simplistic, but, you know, put themselves in other people's shoes. 406 00:47:56,140 --> 00:48:02,840 You know, consider consider the humanity of other people in the moment. 407 00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,380 That's just not really what's happening. 408 00:48:06,380 --> 00:48:15,650 But then again, if you speak to older Israelis, they many of them will remember going to Gaza to go to the market because, 409 00:48:15,650 --> 00:48:19,310 you know, it had they had really good fresh food and it was cheaper going. 410 00:48:19,310 --> 00:48:25,520 Going to visit places in the West Bank. And if you speak to older Palestinians, many of them worked in Israel. 411 00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:33,560 They speak Hebrew. They spent time with Israeli. And that's a complete contrast with younger generations on both sides who are 412 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:37,940 only really encountering each other in situations that are overtly hostile. 413 00:48:37,940 --> 00:48:43,700 So we think this that's another there's a generational aspect at play there as well. 414 00:48:43,700 --> 00:48:49,440 I mean, I remember reading an interview with a man in Gaza who said, you know, I used to work in Israel. 415 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:57,020 I see Hebrew, I. I had Israeli, if not friends and certain Israeli acquaintances means that I actually I understand where they're coming from, 416 00:48:57,020 --> 00:49:07,490 even though I don't agree with it. He said that my kids have absolutely no possibility of any connexion or empathy whatsoever. 417 00:49:07,490 --> 00:49:19,610 And that's a very difficult place to be. And, you know, I have a huge empathy, sympathy for people living in Gaza and cannot even begin to imagine. 418 00:49:19,610 --> 00:49:26,390 But. That needs to change know that attitude needs to change, too, because, you know, 419 00:49:26,390 --> 00:49:38,020 we are where we are and, you know, whatever solution has to be practically doable. 420 00:49:38,020 --> 00:49:45,550 Well, one of the most depressing things I found in the in your documentary was when you interview this, 421 00:49:45,550 --> 00:49:51,230 the younger Israeli gentleman who's his and his main take away from Gaza is that 422 00:49:51,230 --> 00:49:55,730 withdrawing the settlements was wrong because that's encouraged this rocket movement. 423 00:49:55,730 --> 00:50:02,120 And that's really disheartening to see that that's that's the kind of lesson he's taken. 424 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:12,320 Well, especially because he's a teacher. Did you did you decide explicitly not to say that he was a teacher in the film, or was it just the time? 425 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:16,900 It was it. It fell down to what what his role in the film was. 426 00:50:16,900 --> 00:50:29,730 OK. So, you know, he was a vox pop. So, you know, the only exception to introductions for Vox Pop that I made was Mrs. Monzur from Hamas, 427 00:50:29,730 --> 00:50:32,220 because it felt important to explain who she was. 428 00:50:32,220 --> 00:50:42,310 But otherwise, you know, the whole idea was that these are random people that I've encountered who were just telling me what I think. 429 00:50:42,310 --> 00:50:49,930 Running short on time, but I would be very interested to hear a little bit about the history of the film itself. 430 00:50:49,930 --> 00:50:56,530 Have you actually gone to air with the film? I was under the impression that we were sort of in a pre release phase of the film. 431 00:50:56,530 --> 00:51:01,510 What are the plans for release? Where are you hoping that you could take the message? 432 00:51:01,510 --> 00:51:10,600 So I spent two years making the film and last set of February, 433 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:22,750 I was sure that I was on the home run only to get stopped in my tracks with the final technical processes by Kovik. 434 00:51:22,750 --> 00:51:28,600 So we thought we would be circulating the film by April and in the end. 435 00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:35,800 We got the film ready to circulate by September. It's been doing some festival rounds. 436 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:46,530 It has been turned down by every German Palestinian film festival we've applied to until about a month and a half ago. 437 00:51:46,530 --> 00:51:54,690 And we are going to show in the Boca Raton Jewish Film Festival in Florida. 438 00:51:54,690 --> 00:52:02,880 With a Q and A as well. And that's next month. So I think that'll be really interesting because my my attempts to engage with the 439 00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:10,950 Jewish community direct on this have been systematically struck back at every turn. 440 00:52:10,950 --> 00:52:15,660 So I'm looking forward to that. We are just engaging. 441 00:52:15,660 --> 00:52:21,750 Are our distribution policies distribute distribution plans? 442 00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:30,510 We have somebody in Britain who will be organising sort of event screenings. 443 00:52:30,510 --> 00:52:39,270 And I hope on the run up to cinema screenings. And then after that happens, it'll go on television and then online and wherever. 444 00:52:39,270 --> 00:52:48,210 And then we're speaking to a worldwide distributor to sell round the world. 445 00:52:48,210 --> 00:52:53,280 And then someone separate four bits of the American market. 446 00:52:53,280 --> 00:53:03,390 So it's it's a it's quite a long process. And I would expect, you know, it'll it'll proper if it comes out in the cinema. 447 00:53:03,390 --> 00:53:09,180 It'll be towards the end of this year as and when Koven makes this possible. 448 00:53:09,180 --> 00:53:15,050 And I would expect to see it on television next year or the year after. 449 00:53:15,050 --> 00:53:21,600 Where? Well, we feel privileged really to be gotten a sneak preview before everyone else of the world gets to see it. 450 00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:25,830 Well, thank you so much for bringing it to the Middle East community. Thank you so much. 451 00:53:25,830 --> 00:53:34,260 I really appreciate being invited and having a chance to have a fantastic chat with with all of you. 452 00:53:34,260 --> 00:53:37,230 And any final parting shots? 453 00:53:37,230 --> 00:53:46,080 I mean, I would echo your thanks, Gillian, for giving up your time and for granting all of us this gene that the sneak preview. 454 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,980 And I think I would also. Thank you. You know, as a historian, 455 00:53:49,980 --> 00:53:56,160 as someone who teaches this four and really centring the history and for really highlighting 456 00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,820 the importance of thinking about historical context when you're trying to approach this. 457 00:53:59,820 --> 00:54:07,860 So I'm looking forward to seeing where the film goes. Do let us know what kind of reception you get at the festival next month. 458 00:54:07,860 --> 00:54:12,570 Be interested to hear and then we can hopefully keep in touch as well. 459 00:54:12,570 --> 00:54:18,090 Thank you very much again. And thank you to everyone for coming in to everyone who ask questions. 460 00:54:18,090 --> 00:54:22,030 Thank you. And again, lovely. Lovely to be with you. 461 00:54:22,030 --> 00:54:27,300 And with that, we bring the evening to a close. 462 00:54:27,300 --> 00:54:46,857 And thank you all for joining us for this conversation with Julia, Bursley, the tinder box, your daughter star on Friday for excerpt of.