1 00:00:05,910 --> 00:00:12,930 With us tonight, I'm delighted to be welcoming and fun who is joining us from the Department for Development Studies and of course, 2 00:00:12,930 --> 00:00:18,590 having done a brilliant undergraduate degree at Oxford. Our friendship dates back to that. 3 00:00:18,590 --> 00:00:23,930 And Ed will be here to introduce our speaker and lead the discussion with Julian. 4 00:00:23,930 --> 00:00:31,680 Now, you've all had the chance to view the film. And so I hope that you come with your questions and can put them directly to the director. 5 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,550 But now, without further ado, if I could hand over to and take over. 6 00:00:35,550 --> 00:00:39,750 Thank you very much, Eugene. And thanks to everyone for coming out to join us today, 7 00:00:39,750 --> 00:00:46,230 especially when so many of us are suffering close to zero fatigue as we get to the end of time. 8 00:00:46,230 --> 00:00:53,130 So, as Eugene said, the focus for this evening is really the opportunity for all of you to speak directly to Julian, 9 00:00:53,130 --> 00:00:59,070 to ask your questions and to share your thoughts and comments on this very thought provoking and informative film. 10 00:00:59,070 --> 00:01:02,520 How we're going to organise this evening is I'll introduce Jilian in a moment. 11 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:04,330 She'll speak for a few minutes, 12 00:01:04,330 --> 00:01:10,980 give us an overview and an introduction to her work and how she came to make this film and anything else she would like to share. 13 00:01:10,980 --> 00:01:20,160 She and I will then have a brief conversation for a few minutes and then we welcome and invite all of you attendees to submit your questions. 14 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:27,070 So if you enter them in the Q&A box and you can start doing that almost immediately so we can get through as many as possible. 15 00:01:27,070 --> 00:01:30,780 But now, without further ado, I will introduce Gillian. 16 00:01:30,780 --> 00:01:33,060 So as some of you will already have seen, 17 00:01:33,060 --> 00:01:40,740 Gillian Mosley is a first time director who has spent much of her working life producing documentaries for television during this time, 18 00:01:40,740 --> 00:01:46,680 her passion to make films with a strong social purpose and which is hybrid genres to connect different worlds, 19 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,740 has grown, as has her interest in independent film. 20 00:01:49,740 --> 00:01:58,350 Gillian has created, developed and produced high end documentaries for the BBC, Channel four, ITV, PBS, Discovery History, amongst others. 21 00:01:58,350 --> 00:02:07,290 Quite an impressive list. In 2017, Gillian produced her first feature documentary, Manola The Boy Who May Choose Benefits. 22 00:02:07,290 --> 00:02:13,410 But of course, she is here this evening to speak about her latest documentary, The Tinderbox Out. 23 00:02:13,410 --> 00:02:18,610 Gillian. Over to you. Thank you, Anne, and lovely to be here. 24 00:02:18,610 --> 00:02:24,310 So I thought I'd just start with a little bit of an overview of how I came to make the film. 25 00:02:24,310 --> 00:02:33,760 I had decided that I really wanted to try and make a film that made a difference and a film that was close to my heart. 26 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:42,400 And as a Jew who became very close friends with a Palestinian at quite an early age, 27 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:56,800 Israel Palestine is a place situation that I have long been hyper aware of and have spent a lot of time travelling through, 28 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,370 scratching my head about and talking to people a basin. 29 00:03:00,370 --> 00:03:03,490 Several things struck me, first of all. 30 00:03:03,490 --> 00:03:12,920 Many friends, particularly here and in the states who have asked me on a number of occasions to explain to them the situation in Israel and Palestine, 31 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:27,220 and I think there's a fair amount of either fatigue or just complete confusion around the issues that surround Israel Palestine. 32 00:03:27,220 --> 00:03:32,500 Which is understandable because, of course, it is complicated. 33 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:43,330 But when I went to look for a film that I could recommend that could encapsulate the situation fairly quickly, I couldn't find one. 34 00:03:43,330 --> 00:03:53,260 So rather than refer my friends to 700 page tomes, which I've read and enjoyed, I, I thought I'd make that film. 35 00:03:53,260 --> 00:04:01,360 So the tinder box is my best attempt to show people who know nothing. 36 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:14,030 What is going on there? And as you will see, it's very history driven, much of my career has been as a historical film maker. 37 00:04:14,030 --> 00:04:23,750 History is complete passion of mine. And I strongly believe that any situation or almost any situation we find ourselves 38 00:04:23,750 --> 00:04:31,550 in today will be far easier to understand if we give it its historical context. 39 00:04:31,550 --> 00:04:37,270 And Israel Palestine is absolutely that story. 40 00:04:37,270 --> 00:04:44,180 Not least because probably in most places other than where I'm sitting right now. 41 00:04:44,180 --> 00:04:50,810 This story seems to have been lost in the mists of time, and certainly here in Britain, 42 00:04:50,810 --> 00:05:00,920 very few people that I speak to realise what sort of role Britain played in the events that continue to play out. 43 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,750 To this day. So that is the reasoning. 44 00:05:04,750 --> 00:05:10,340 And then I also feel that or believe you strongly that it's critical that people take 45 00:05:10,340 --> 00:05:18,740 this context into account when trying to address the situation in any positive manner. 46 00:05:18,740 --> 00:05:24,490 And a lot of the, quote unquote, solutions that we've seen in the last. 47 00:05:24,490 --> 00:05:32,470 Twenty thirty years seem to me perhaps not to take this context into account as well as they might. 48 00:05:32,470 --> 00:05:38,320 So film can punch through. It can get into the mainstream narrative. 49 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:49,240 And I am certainly fervently hoping that this one does so that people actually start to talk about how and why this all started happening 50 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:59,620 and how that relates to today and indeed how that then shows us how we might be able to unpick some of what's happened and move forward. 51 00:05:59,620 --> 00:06:07,990 And I think that's probably why I want to say at the moment to please ask questions. 52 00:06:07,990 --> 00:06:16,000 Thank you very much, Gillian. I'm obviously talking about the importance, the critical importance of history is music to my ears as a historian. 53 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:23,050 I'm sure the same goes for Eugene as well. I'm delighted to see we've already got questions actually starting to come any from the attendees. 54 00:06:23,050 --> 00:06:27,880 Just a reminder that you can post them in the Q&A box if you haven't already. 55 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:33,360 But before we get to those, I just have a couple of things I wanted to chat to you about myself. 56 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,260 Gillian, I mean, as you just said, 57 00:06:35,260 --> 00:06:43,840 so much of this film is engaged with and centred around the longer trajectory of the situation in Israel Palestine today. 58 00:06:43,840 --> 00:06:50,650 And one thing you say, I think, quite early on is that it dates much further back than you had initially realised. 59 00:06:50,650 --> 00:06:57,430 I'm curious to hear in terms of your own reflections now having having done so much research and having made this film, 60 00:06:57,430 --> 00:07:07,270 how do you think we we might perceive the situation today differently if we do take this longer historical view? 61 00:07:07,270 --> 00:07:11,460 First of all, Beston, to start your very small points in three different ways. 62 00:07:11,460 --> 00:07:16,080 So I'm actually going to start. Not in his room, Palestine. I'm going to start being Brison. 63 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:25,080 And it's ironic in no small measure that we are looking at a period where. 64 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:33,060 There is discussion around our colonial legacy on a number of levels with certain people in the government, 65 00:07:33,060 --> 00:07:39,390 certainly having suggested several years ago that we must return to the sunny uplands. 66 00:07:39,390 --> 00:07:46,670 And one has to assume that that was are empire. I'm not quite sure what else they they're referring to. 67 00:07:46,670 --> 00:07:54,440 And then, of course, last year, we had a lot more discussion around dealing with our colonial legacy. 68 00:07:54,440 --> 00:08:04,130 So I think here in Britain, it's really important to understand what our colonial legacy produces. 69 00:08:04,130 --> 00:08:12,380 And, you know, Israel Palestine is such a good example because so much continues to happen to this day. 70 00:08:12,380 --> 00:08:17,180 So, yes, I think that's that's probably my answer. 71 00:08:17,180 --> 00:08:18,260 Yeah, I know. Absolutely. 72 00:08:18,260 --> 00:08:26,140 And it's very effective in the film how you very deliberately trace it far back beyond the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, 73 00:08:26,140 --> 00:08:30,840 when you look at its roots really beyond that. 74 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:38,900 Something else I was thinking as I watched as I watched the film was so much of the politics around this issue and 75 00:08:38,900 --> 00:08:45,360 the contentions around it get really entangled with with who gets to speak and whose voices are heard as well. 76 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,480 And obviously, there's a lot of power inequities caught up in that. 77 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:57,660 So one thing I was curious to hear about for you as a filmmaker and to some degree as a storyteller, how did you choose whose voices to feature? 78 00:08:57,660 --> 00:09:06,830 You speak to several individuals in this films. How did you approach who you wanted to include and maybe who you were going to end up excluding? 79 00:09:06,830 --> 00:09:09,770 Well, that was I mean, that was actually an incredibly interesting process. 80 00:09:09,770 --> 00:09:15,800 So I started with my own red line, which is that I didn't want to include anybody who is actively, 81 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:21,110 as far as we are aware, perpetrating violence at the moment. 82 00:09:21,110 --> 00:09:29,670 So that was the parameter. But beyond that, I was originally looking for archetypes and I certainly found them where they need Israel. 83 00:09:29,670 --> 00:09:32,630 But within Palestine, it was actually harder. 84 00:09:32,630 --> 00:09:40,400 So, you know, originally I thought I was going to get myself a left wing Jew, a right wing Jew, a left wing Palestinian and a right wing Palestinian. 85 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,750 And the Jews, as I said, came fairly quickly and easily. 86 00:09:44,750 --> 00:09:53,720 And you know that they are who they are. And in Palestine, I don't know, you know, how you would define the people I spoke to. 87 00:09:53,720 --> 00:10:06,440 But what I discovered is, is pretty much everybody that I was talking to without going to great lengths to find people who were different from them, 88 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:14,520 had very similar views about this subject, which is certainly not the case with the Israelis. 89 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:24,110 And so that was a real learning curve for me. What I didn't do, and I'm very aware I didn't do it, is I didn't go into Palestinian villages. 90 00:10:24,110 --> 00:10:31,830 You know, I was mostly in cities. And had I gone into Palestinian villages, maybe I would have gotten a different view. 91 00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:36,940 But was there any particular reason you did it or was it more practical restraints? 92 00:10:36,940 --> 00:10:45,710 It was more practical. And yeah, it was more practical logistical issues. 93 00:10:45,710 --> 00:10:50,600 Kind of a related question. Something else that came to me when I was watching is, you know something? 94 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:55,490 I think anyone who engages with this area grapples with. I know I definitely grew up with this in my research, 95 00:10:55,490 --> 00:11:03,980 in my teaching is the fact that this subject is so controversial that even the very words you use can be loaded and can be seen to be significant. 96 00:11:03,980 --> 00:11:07,340 Right. The very terminology is contested. So it's curious again, 97 00:11:07,340 --> 00:11:15,500 how did you approach that and how did you grapple with it when choosing what kind of language you were going to use very carefully? 98 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:21,460 I mean, there's one section of the film that I think was actually rewritten 17 times. 99 00:11:21,460 --> 00:11:32,060 And, you know, we've come out of this and it will not surprise you to know that I have been both lauded and abused by both sides, 100 00:11:32,060 --> 00:11:42,070 were not by people from both sides. So, you know, I've had to scream at me, ask me if I'm worried about my safety and others who love it. 101 00:11:42,070 --> 00:11:46,210 And I've had Palestinians who've said this is the film all Palestinians have been 102 00:11:46,210 --> 00:11:51,070 waiting for and others who've said no Palestinian will ever watch this film. 103 00:11:51,070 --> 00:11:57,910 So for somebody who's used to making broadcast shows, that's actually a way in as far as I'm concerned, 104 00:11:57,910 --> 00:12:04,240 because as long as we're offending everybody equally, then I think I've done my show out of curiosity. 105 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,260 And obviously I don't have to tell us that. What was the section that was ratio 17 took off? 106 00:12:08,260 --> 00:12:16,690 Hamas and Hezbollah. Yes. I am going to go to question from the attendees. 107 00:12:16,690 --> 00:12:23,860 Now, please do continue to post them in the Q&A box and then I'll I'll chip in as we go through the question from Chenda Im opponent, 108 00:12:23,860 --> 00:12:29,200 who is MASC student in migration studies in the Oxford Department of International Development. 109 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:34,720 And he asks, How do you think your positions as a British Jewish woman differ from those of 110 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:39,340 Israeli Jews who live with the Israeli-Palestinian dynamic in their day to day? 111 00:12:39,340 --> 00:12:47,830 And did you feel any resentment from Israeli Jews? You might feel that you are parachuting in from outside to pass judgement on their livelihoods. 112 00:12:47,830 --> 00:12:51,820 Situations. So, I mean, that's an interesting question, 113 00:12:51,820 --> 00:12:58,660 because there are lots of things that I learnt about Jews while I was making this film that I hadn't necessarily known so on. 114 00:12:58,660 --> 00:13:04,060 I don't particularly practise anymore. And we I grew up in the States. 115 00:13:04,060 --> 00:13:09,660 And so I stopped going to synagogue care when I was about 10 other than in summers. 116 00:13:09,660 --> 00:13:17,800 And so I hadn't quite appreciated how conservative the British Jewish community is until I started making this film. 117 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,960 And now I know that's not to say that they're all conservative. And obviously, you know, I. 118 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:28,420 I know a lot who are not. But, you know, certainly the synagogue where I grew up, 119 00:13:28,420 --> 00:13:40,840 where my forefathers were chief rabbis and translated the prayer book into English for the first time, are not receptive to the messages in this film. 120 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:46,210 So that was that was a bit of a shock. And in Israel, I found the opposite, actually. 121 00:13:46,210 --> 00:13:51,520 I found a lot of people who were quite willing to go. 122 00:13:51,520 --> 00:14:06,200 There were I'm in a way, were more chilled about the situation. But there is a caveat there, and the caveat is that even the most left wing Jews were. 123 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:12,950 Asked me if I was worried about my security when I was sort of wandering round the West Bank and, 124 00:14:12,950 --> 00:14:19,270 you know, we had some Israeli partners and when I asked if we could go into Gaza, they just said no. 125 00:14:19,270 --> 00:14:22,850 You know, definitely not too difficult. Well, Glawe. 126 00:14:22,850 --> 00:14:29,470 So, you know, I knew I probably had way too much material for this film anyway, so I didn't push that. 127 00:14:29,470 --> 00:14:40,010 But I think the separation wall, unfortunately, has done way too good a job on making it difficult for people to actually see each other as people, 128 00:14:40,010 --> 00:14:44,630 regardless of whether they agree with Israeli governmental policies or not. 129 00:14:44,630 --> 00:14:51,680 And that's very sad. Eugene, your your hand is up. 130 00:14:51,680 --> 00:15:01,010 Never one to miss the opportunity to put a question to a filmmaker. Jillian, I really enjoyed the way that you brought archival footage. 131 00:15:01,010 --> 00:15:03,980 The artistry of your editing, though, 132 00:15:03,980 --> 00:15:11,630 is when you have archival footage with contemporary footage running the very same kind of images, so of soldiers going down a street. 133 00:15:11,630 --> 00:15:18,200 But it's you know, it's really soldiers here, British soldiers there or there was something wonderful about the way you cut and spliced 134 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:23,990 past and present to give you a sense of we've been in this market for 100 hundred years now. 135 00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:28,010 So can you talk a little bit about the image matching that went into the filmmaking? 136 00:15:28,010 --> 00:15:32,090 Because it really is striking. Thank you. Yes. 137 00:15:32,090 --> 00:15:37,700 I mean, I do genuinely believe that, you know, we are exactly where we were 100 years ago, 138 00:15:37,700 --> 00:15:44,500 more or less, with couple of minor things, you know, details different. 139 00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:52,180 And I just I knew I wanted to do that, so I set about looking for that imagery. 140 00:15:52,180 --> 00:15:59,020 You know, I just thought I wanted to show how nothing has changed as visually as I possibly can. 141 00:15:59,020 --> 00:16:06,730 But, you know, one of the most joyful aspects of making this film was the amount of time I spent with the archive. 142 00:16:06,730 --> 00:16:15,520 And. The archives available is extraordinary and it really tells the story. 143 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,740 And, you know, it's also pretty striking that with two exceptions, 144 00:16:19,740 --> 00:16:27,900 I really struggled when looking for images of people who were obviously Jewish prior to 1930. 145 00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:32,990 And, you know, there were only two of those and everything else were not. 146 00:16:32,990 --> 00:16:37,720 You know, there's much more Arab looking people. Of course, they could be Jews. 147 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:48,170 But. Yes. So, you know, I found that an extraordinary thing to be able to actually matching images can be quite challenging. 148 00:16:48,170 --> 00:16:50,610 I mean, I'm a regular reader, a private eye. 149 00:16:50,610 --> 00:16:58,400 And there's always that comic, you know, where they they take, you know, famous person, Mixi, images, images, they look alike. 150 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:04,190 Or I think about the way George W. Bush was compared to a chimpanzee at certain photographs. 151 00:17:04,190 --> 00:17:09,770 So you're like somebody spent time finding the image that looked like Bush's face in the face of a chimpanzee. 152 00:17:09,770 --> 00:17:17,110 How did you go about actually matching your images? Did you have contemporary footage that you had already gathered? 153 00:17:17,110 --> 00:17:24,980 And then you went to the archives looking for something that was the same feel, the same drowner emotion, lots of archives. 154 00:17:24,980 --> 00:17:31,340 And I'm sorry. This is a trade secret that they trade very helpfully label themselves. 155 00:17:31,340 --> 00:17:37,190 So you might get soldiers with barbed wire or soldiers in jeeps. 156 00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:44,090 So I had some help as much as I'd like to think much more than that. 157 00:17:44,090 --> 00:17:55,820 Yes. And, you know, I mean, it didn't take me so long to come up with a list of contenders for that less time than than you'd think. 158 00:17:55,820 --> 00:18:02,480 The other thing that I should have said at the beginning that I forgot to say is that an hour and a half's worth of history has actually 159 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:12,020 come out of the film because we just out there is a limit to what people can take on board when they're watching a 90 minute film. 160 00:18:12,020 --> 00:18:17,690 And I think the film is already potentially pushing those those boundaries. 161 00:18:17,690 --> 00:18:24,080 But, you know, I'm sorry not to take more credit for that than the credit, silly, and take the credit. 162 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,020 You still say a story is always going to push you for history. 163 00:18:28,020 --> 00:18:33,240 I was wondering also whether there was a generational aspect that you originally had wanted to explore, 164 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:39,270 because one gets a sense that you were looking at reaching out to people of different generations. 165 00:18:39,270 --> 00:18:46,760 Were you curious to see whether that was part of the dynamic? Is it getting harder? That is the line getting harder and people's views. 166 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:52,700 Or is there hope that the younger generation. Where's that going? I mean, that, again, was interesting. 167 00:18:52,700 --> 00:19:02,760 I mean, you know, in terms of my main characters, the people who cropped up are all certainly over 35 for the four main characters. 168 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:07,350 And, you know, obviously Israel's much older than that. 169 00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:17,610 In terms of the vox pops, we literally stopped people in the streets for 85 percent of them and it was a question of who would speak to us. 170 00:19:17,610 --> 00:19:25,380 But I did get a fairly strong impression of a couple of archetypes again. 171 00:19:25,380 --> 00:19:38,530 And I think they're. There were a number of of younger Israelis who were far more right than I was expecting. 172 00:19:38,530 --> 00:19:49,290 So when I was saying that, I was I was pleasantly surprised by Israeli Amstutz that is probably above a certain age, below a certain age. 173 00:19:49,290 --> 00:19:55,410 There were some people that I encountered who, you know, just weren't interested. 174 00:19:55,410 --> 00:20:01,260 And then there were some people who were like the guy in the red t shirt. 175 00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:05,700 And the thing about the guy in the red T-shirt, that is a bit. 176 00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:14,310 Well, the thing about the guy in the red T-shirt is that he is actually a teacher. So that needs to be borne in mind as well. 177 00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:22,770 And I guess if you think about who's has been ruling governing Israel for the last several decades, 178 00:20:22,770 --> 00:20:29,160 it makes sense that perhaps people have swung to the right in their attitudes. 179 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:39,040 Having said that. You know, Netanyahu is on election numbers at six. 180 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:45,490 And he still can't get a majority. You know, he's been in purgatory for several years at this point. 181 00:20:45,490 --> 00:20:54,190 And those demonstrations are getting louder. So perhaps things are things are changing. 182 00:20:54,190 --> 00:21:03,400 I'm not sure. Actually, I am going to take my chance, prerogative to piggy back on this, because I had a related question. 183 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,200 I mean, the films obviously very self consciously reflective. 184 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:13,560 And one thing you talk about is how you hadn't actually been to Israel for quite a long time when you came to make this film. 185 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,540 You had your own apprehensions about going there. 186 00:21:16,540 --> 00:21:24,820 In view of that, I'm quite curious to hear your your observations on how you found Israel had changed since your last visit. 187 00:21:24,820 --> 00:21:33,520 Because so often we hear increasingly nowadays that it has become more right wing, more religious, 188 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,350 much more overtly anti Palestinian in terms of both Israeli state and Israeli society. 189 00:21:38,350 --> 00:21:47,100 I'm curious of your experiences. You observe those changes as well, or whether you found something, maybe Messiah. 190 00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:53,250 Well, I mean, you know, the big one of the biggest changes was the optics. 191 00:21:53,250 --> 00:22:02,310 So, you know, the first time, you know, I went to Israel with my grandmother when I was 13 and then when I was 21 with a bunch of uni friends, 192 00:22:02,310 --> 00:22:07,860 our graduation trip, we took a bus from Cairo to Jerusalem. 193 00:22:07,860 --> 00:22:11,940 And then a couple of years later with my sister, 194 00:22:11,940 --> 00:22:23,850 we took a taxi from Jerusalem to the Allenby Bridge and then went into Jordan and did a trip with a friend from Jordan. 195 00:22:23,850 --> 00:22:28,950 And so what you see there is not that freedom anymore. 196 00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:34,140 I was there again, just as they were starting to build the wall. 197 00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:38,340 The walls are everywhere now. 198 00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:48,630 And, you know, for me, I think they're just they're metaphors for the situation, and so I think for me it was quite difficult to get past that. 199 00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:54,960 And when these lovely, well-meaning left wing Israelis were asking me if I was scared, you know, 200 00:22:54,960 --> 00:23:00,630 I sort of felt like I know, you know, Palestinians have to Hensen pink and purple like adults. 201 00:23:00,630 --> 00:23:07,350 I mean, you know, what do you think is kind of, you know, going into Nablus or, you know, whatever it is? 202 00:23:07,350 --> 00:23:11,500 And, you know, obviously we've got some looks because it's not Batoff. 203 00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:17,830 And I suppose that people who were obviously Western with cameras go wandering round. 204 00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:30,300 Yeah. So I think there was that, and I don't think it got enmeshed enough to notice or talk to many right wingers per say. 205 00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:40,290 But the other thing is, I had never been to Hebron before and I was horrified. 206 00:23:40,290 --> 00:23:45,840 I mean, I've never seen it anything like varsities. Absolutely. 207 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:51,750 You know, it's it's the symbol of the entire situation as far as I. 208 00:23:51,750 --> 00:24:04,260 I experienced it. And, you know, we encountered or, you know, we were filming Isa and he encountered this settler who apparently is notorious. 209 00:24:04,260 --> 00:24:11,430 And she's so notorious that I was talking to other friends back here about her and they all knew her name. 210 00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:19,380 But it was like watching a seven year old playground bully her overarcing a succession of people. 211 00:24:19,380 --> 00:24:28,350 So she started with a Serban and she started on the school teachers and then she started with the ecumenical accompaniment people. 212 00:24:28,350 --> 00:24:38,950 And she's sort of jabbing at them and trying to take their phones because they were trying to film an item that was that was horrifying. 213 00:24:38,950 --> 00:24:43,000 How did you kind of soft-boiled heaver on, though? I mean, in a sense, 214 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:51,370 that story does need to be told because the way in which the settler community in the heart of the old town of Hebron has bifurcating 215 00:24:51,370 --> 00:24:59,230 the city and literally terrorised the Arab inhabitants is one that goes beyond the wildest imaginings of the Western audience. 216 00:24:59,230 --> 00:25:02,260 You're trying to reach. Why did you pull the punch on that? 217 00:25:02,260 --> 00:25:09,130 Because it sounds like you actually had the kind of material that might have conveyed even more strongly the horror that is Hebron. 218 00:25:09,130 --> 00:25:13,710 We didn't. I'm going to probably shouldn't say this. 219 00:25:13,710 --> 00:25:24,400 I was I sat down with set having this encounter and my cameraman was very safely back up, quite high above on a long lens. 220 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:32,250 And I felt he was filming everything that he didn't. So. So we don't have as much as I would have liked. 221 00:25:32,250 --> 00:25:37,080 I think that somebody is actually making a film about hebra when you will be pleased to hear at the moment. 222 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,680 You're right. It, of course, is a story that needs to be told. 223 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:48,450 But I think the other side of it is that when all is said and done, this is a film about the British mandate. 224 00:25:48,450 --> 00:25:54,630 And much as I would have liked to have gone on further. 225 00:25:54,630 --> 00:26:05,230 First of all, we would have needed to film differently. And, yeah, would've been quite tricky in terms of everything else we were trying to do. 226 00:26:05,230 --> 00:26:14,200 I have a question coming in now from Benjamin Brown, who asks, Do you believe that by focussing on the historic roots of the conflict, 227 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,570 contemporary issues, for example, 228 00:26:16,570 --> 00:26:25,020 regarding security concerns can adequately be taken into consideration when trying to understand the Israeli narrative. 229 00:26:25,020 --> 00:26:34,860 I'm not sure I quite understand. So I as I understand it, but Benjamin, feel free to let me know in the chat box if I'm getting this wrong. 230 00:26:34,860 --> 00:26:44,850 I suppose, is there a risk that if we focus on the historical roots of the conflict, we might do so to the point of obscuring contemporary issues, 231 00:26:44,850 --> 00:26:51,840 such as the fact that many Israelis today have heartfelt concerns about issues around security? 232 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:59,070 And are we going to risk overshadowing those concerns and therefore not being able to understand the Israeli narrative today? 233 00:26:59,070 --> 00:27:03,600 Benjamin, feel free to write if I've got that wrong. He says I got it right on with you. 234 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:12,240 I mean, as it happens, I just been reading this book called Human Kind, which is by a Dutch academic, 235 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:23,140 and he's talking about how there is a narrative that most people are basically evil, but that when you look at research on that, it doesn't stack up. 236 00:27:23,140 --> 00:27:28,560 And his contention is that most people are basically good. 237 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:35,310 I think that the security issues for me, I'm not saying there are real security issues. 238 00:27:35,310 --> 00:27:48,870 But to me, a lot of them arise from the historical context directly and from a misconstrue all of the historical context. 239 00:27:48,870 --> 00:27:55,410 So I'm not saying that there are no security problems facing Israelis. 240 00:27:55,410 --> 00:28:00,930 I'm certainly not saying that there are no security problems facing Palestinians. 241 00:28:00,930 --> 00:28:07,020 But I I'm not sure that the patterns are any different than what was happening in the history. 242 00:28:07,020 --> 00:28:12,380 And I think if you look at the history that tells you. 243 00:28:12,380 --> 00:28:18,370 Why they're happening and if you know why they're happening, it's easier to address them. 244 00:28:18,370 --> 00:28:27,800 Sorry, I'm not even sure that makes sense, but if the sort of long, long winded way round it, does that answer your question. 245 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:35,430 Benjamin? We'll be waiting for Benjamin to type in a or a day, and he says it does. 246 00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:43,050 There were two points there. I think you were bringing history in to the diaspora experience of Israeli Jews. 247 00:28:43,050 --> 00:28:52,620 And it both times that made the people you were talking to very uncomfortable and once was when you asked Israel to compare Gaza to a ghetto. 248 00:28:52,620 --> 00:29:01,290 And the second was at the very end when you asked the young man who basically denied the Palestinians had a claim or a right, 249 00:29:01,290 --> 00:29:04,530 whether that was in any way reminiscent of what the Jewish people experienced, 250 00:29:04,530 --> 00:29:09,870 when there are legitimate claims that then, as it were, not recognised by the international community or what not. 251 00:29:09,870 --> 00:29:20,910 And he's just silent. So I wonder whether there's something in the history which is still too raw nerve for Israelis 252 00:29:20,910 --> 00:29:26,860 when their experience of diaspora is being compared to the Palestinian experience of knuckler. 253 00:29:26,860 --> 00:29:37,480 I mean, I I think you're I think you're right. But I think because the history has been so. 254 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,190 Swirled up and churn churned up and spat out. 255 00:29:42,190 --> 00:29:51,870 Not necessarily in a comprehensible form, so that it's almost impossible for most people to understand what happened. 256 00:29:51,870 --> 00:29:59,170 That. Those concerns are divorced from the context again. 257 00:29:59,170 --> 00:30:06,050 I'm sorry I keep coming back to the context and you know, Israel was interesting because Israel is actually a historian. 258 00:30:06,050 --> 00:30:10,370 He loves history. And in a certain way, he's very well informed. 259 00:30:10,370 --> 00:30:19,110 It's just that he he's got work arounds that he has devised in his head and. 260 00:30:19,110 --> 00:30:23,520 I mean, you know, psychologically, it's fascinating because, of course, you would you know, 261 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:31,080 if you know what happened, if you know that there were only 10 percent of the population is Jewish in 1917. 262 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:39,740 And yet here we are today. You'd have to come up with with something. 263 00:30:39,740 --> 00:30:43,900 I I don't know, because I didn't talk in more depth to door. 264 00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:53,680 But my guess is that the context for him is something that's probably quite different to what I see as the historical context. 265 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:59,990 And therefore, he starts from a different place. And so, yes, of course, it's completely raw. 266 00:30:59,990 --> 00:31:06,210 Whether people are ready just to sort of face this openly is another question. 267 00:31:06,210 --> 00:31:12,230 That's quite an interesting point you make, Father, about the location where people's narratives begin, 268 00:31:12,230 --> 00:31:17,070 because it's it's, as you say, probably very consequential. 269 00:31:17,070 --> 00:31:23,290 If you have someone like Dore, let's say, whose personal narrative, perhaps we don't know, 270 00:31:23,290 --> 00:31:31,680 but perhaps begins with his assistance in Europe facing incredibly brutal existential anti-Semitic persecution. 271 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:39,400 And it's always some kind of part of Kuwait if his narrative doesn't actually begin in Israel Palestine. 272 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,950 Well, actually, actually that's an interesting point as well. 273 00:31:41,950 --> 00:31:48,640 So Dore's family, first of all, apparently his family is very left wing and they are Arab Jews. 274 00:31:48,640 --> 00:32:00,400 And actually, I did run across a nice handful of Arab Jews who are far more conservative than I am with the policies, you know. 275 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:05,110 And in theory, you know, one on one side of my family where our Jews as well. 276 00:32:05,110 --> 00:32:09,820 But we were in Spain. So it's a different, different narrative. 277 00:32:09,820 --> 00:32:22,330 But, yes. So I think there's a rawness there as well because, you know, basically. 278 00:32:22,330 --> 00:32:27,790 You know, DuSable obviously lived in the Arab world for a very, very long time and very happily. 279 00:32:27,790 --> 00:32:35,010 And then all of a sudden they're not welcome anymore. And so there's this sort of. 280 00:32:35,010 --> 00:32:42,720 Double issue to contend with. One is why am I no longer welcome in Morocco or wherever it is? 281 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,560 And then if you actually want to answer that question, 282 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:56,760 you might have to look at the correlation of timing between Israel's declaration as a state and the time when you became not welcome. 283 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:04,840 And I would imagine that Max is a very difficult place for some people to go to. 284 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:13,930 We have a question coming in now from Paul Lewis, who asks, Are you more or less optimistic that there can be a solution in the Middle East? 285 00:33:13,930 --> 00:33:24,400 In a post Trump world? I have to tell a story about Trump as well and how he came to be in the film. 286 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:38,460 I had remarked to my editor very innocently that I never actually listened to anything that Trump said while he was in office because I just couldn't. 287 00:33:38,460 --> 00:33:44,050 You know, I just read about it after, and so next thing I know, he's stuck trumping the fit. 288 00:33:44,050 --> 00:33:50,800 And of course, when you make a film, you have to watch it and re watch it. 289 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,830 I think the answer to that question. 290 00:33:53,830 --> 00:34:03,030 I'm actually not unoptimistic having made the film, which is a separate thing to the question that Paul has asked. 291 00:34:03,030 --> 00:34:08,700 I think it depends on whether Biden is ready to engage with the context, 292 00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:18,850 because I just genuinely believe that this will not be properly solved until people take the context into account, 293 00:34:18,850 --> 00:34:22,440 which again, is why I've made this film. I really would like this. 294 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:30,300 This story tabled front and centre so that anybody who comes to deal with Israel Palestine 295 00:34:30,300 --> 00:34:37,500 and tries to make a positive difference actually starts from the history rather than, 296 00:34:37,500 --> 00:34:46,310 you know, random perceptions of the history, which often bear absolutely no resemblance to what's recorded. 297 00:34:46,310 --> 00:34:49,300 Good, maybe two, maybe back. 298 00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:57,310 Well, yes, maybe building on that, it might be interesting to talk a little bit about, you know, and you alluded to this earlier. 299 00:34:57,310 --> 00:35:02,760 All of these initiatives that have been put forward in the name of peace over the last 30 years or so. 300 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:07,480 And you've said and I would largely agree with you, that they've often been done almost. 301 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:16,510 Historically, they've been formulated historically. But I wonder when you think about that, what comes to mind as one or two concrete cases, 302 00:35:16,510 --> 00:35:25,370 whether you would say the history hasn't been put front and centre or the context has not been put front and centre and what that's actually meant. 303 00:35:25,370 --> 00:35:31,760 Well, Donald Trump and Jared Kushner be a prime example. 304 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:40,370 The problem is I probably back in 92, I was not that interested, you know, I wasn't that interested. 305 00:35:40,370 --> 00:35:48,530 And so I would have to go back and read up very comprehensively on the Oslo situation in order to answer that. 306 00:35:48,530 --> 00:35:57,380 The perception I gained, however, is that the Americans were aware but couldn't quite navigate past it. 307 00:35:57,380 --> 00:36:02,890 Whether they tried or not is another question, and I may be completely wrong about that. 308 00:36:02,890 --> 00:36:08,050 Say yes to a ban. Yes, they're in effect. 309 00:36:08,050 --> 00:36:20,650 The question about where to go. Is maybe one of the questions you don't answer in the movie, you leave us in the end with a rather soft message. 310 00:36:20,650 --> 00:36:26,510 Of peoples who have to come to appreciate what life looks like if you step on the other person's shoes. 311 00:36:26,510 --> 00:36:34,280 But you don't really come down on what that's going to mean in terms of resolving the political aspirations of the two sides. 312 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:40,300 And you make a passing reference to a two state solution looking increasingly unlikely. 313 00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:44,160 You never actually pronounce on the one state alternative. 314 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:50,180 And I don't know that there is anything besides one or two states except apartheid and continued occupation. 315 00:36:50,180 --> 00:36:54,200 So the status quo as I guess, option three. 316 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,070 So, you know, again, given the audience you want to reach, Gillian, 317 00:36:58,070 --> 00:37:03,290 I don't know whether you don't want to make a stronger statement at the end here about where you think 318 00:37:03,290 --> 00:37:09,380 resolution lies because you can't actually expect people to just say there is equal merit to both claims. 319 00:37:09,380 --> 00:37:13,130 You know, Jews and and Palestine's are not could agree on that. 320 00:37:13,130 --> 00:37:21,500 So there's going to have to be something of a political concession or what's in a what is the end game here. 321 00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:32,240 So we we made a deliberate decision not to because, as I said, this film is really for, you know, 322 00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:43,160 my often Anglo-Saxon liberal British friends and my American friends who are confused don't understand it, 323 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:54,700 and when they see the film are absolutely horrified. So all I wanted was to get people's attention and understanding and. 324 00:37:54,700 --> 00:38:00,350 At the very end of the film is our Web site. And on our Web site is a fair amount. 325 00:38:00,350 --> 00:38:05,810 And that that is really that includes sort of how you can engage with this issue. 326 00:38:05,810 --> 00:38:09,680 And I think, you know, I don't want to tell people what to think. 327 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:15,500 I want them to form their own conclusions from the film. 328 00:38:15,500 --> 00:38:21,980 Do I have an opinion? Yes. To have an opinion. And some of that comes up in what you can do. 329 00:38:21,980 --> 00:38:27,770 So I sort feel for me personally as somebody who doesn't have skin in the game. 330 00:38:27,770 --> 00:38:36,750 This is not my decision. You know, I don't get to choose what people who currently live in Palestine, in Israel. 331 00:38:36,750 --> 00:38:47,480 Should want. That's their choice. I personally am a massive fan of citizens assemblies. 332 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:54,260 And I would love to see a proper independent fulsom, 333 00:38:54,260 --> 00:39:02,240 Israelis and Palestinians citizens assembly process along the lines of what happens in Ireland all the time. 334 00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:11,810 Given that what happens in Ireland is often on a par with the level of emoted, miss. 335 00:39:11,810 --> 00:39:16,910 You know, as yet, it's just not for me to decide. Two states, one state. 336 00:39:16,910 --> 00:39:20,090 I mean, you know, as a historian and only as a historian, 337 00:39:20,090 --> 00:39:26,420 I lean towards one state because kanon for its entire history was a single melting pot state. 338 00:39:26,420 --> 00:39:34,740 But I'm not sure that's enough of a reason to impose that on people living there today. 339 00:39:34,740 --> 00:39:40,390 Know, I think the opposition, the people you talked to, did they come down one side or the other? 340 00:39:40,390 --> 00:39:47,520 I mean, just as a little aside, I was at a meeting of Israeli and Palestinian businessmen on the sidelines of the Davos meeting. 341 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:48,790 They'd been meeting for years. 342 00:39:48,790 --> 00:39:54,670 This is obviously one of those little things the Klaus Schwab thought was his solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict is bring businessmen together, 343 00:39:54,670 --> 00:40:05,140 very trumpet solution. And they were talking about a generation gap in Palestine where if you were under 30, you no longer believed in two states. 344 00:40:05,140 --> 00:40:07,510 You wanted one state with full Israeli rights. 345 00:40:07,510 --> 00:40:13,810 You thought that Palestinian politics failed and you just wanted to get on with your life and bury nationalism. 346 00:40:13,810 --> 00:40:18,760 And so these were all people of an older generation who were very wedded to a two state solution. 347 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:24,700 And their whole point was, if we don't deliver something fast, you know, we're losing the younger generation. 348 00:40:24,700 --> 00:40:29,260 And so I'm just wondering whether the people you talk to reflected on these sorts of dynamics, 349 00:40:29,260 --> 00:40:36,640 again, intergenerational or whether there is a sense of one or other be more or less realistic. 350 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,330 You may not have edited into the film, but just from your conversations with people. 351 00:40:40,330 --> 00:40:43,760 Where do you think the trend on that one is going? 352 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:55,190 So interesting, the Israel Madad, the settler, wants a single state and would be willing to be a Palestinian citizen. 353 00:40:55,190 --> 00:41:03,250 In order to stay where he is, if it was a set, if it was a two state. 354 00:41:03,250 --> 00:41:10,620 I didn't talk to. I didn't talk to anybody else about it. 355 00:41:10,620 --> 00:41:14,370 I mean, you know, money's just coasting. She's living day to day. 356 00:41:14,370 --> 00:41:21,180 They've got so many problems. She just wants it stopped. So, yeah. 357 00:41:21,180 --> 00:41:25,890 I mean, what's interesting is I can sort of see what you're saying, 358 00:41:25,890 --> 00:41:34,500 but I'm I think it's only part of the picture because I certainly know plenty of lefties here over a certain age. 359 00:41:34,500 --> 00:41:41,080 And please don't take that amiss who are completely wedded to the two state solution. 360 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:47,620 And then the other thing that I've noticed is that the Palestinian pro Palestinian contingency that 361 00:41:47,620 --> 00:41:55,120 I'm falling afoul law via the anti normalises are also very much in favour of a two state solution, 362 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,190 and they tend to be much younger. 363 00:41:58,190 --> 00:42:07,240 So, you know, as against, you know, I certainly know plenty of Jews and Palestinians who are also young, who want to see a single state. 364 00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:14,540 But I think there is not the age so much as who they you know, who they represent. 365 00:42:14,540 --> 00:42:17,880 Certainly in this barn, I found. 366 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:26,760 There's a forthcoming book, actually, by an academic who did her, Puchi, at Oxford in International Development a couple of years ago, 367 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:32,670 and specifically a study of this these into generational shifts amongst Palestinians. 368 00:42:32,670 --> 00:42:37,830 And she conducted a lot of fieldwork in East Jerusalem. 369 00:42:37,830 --> 00:42:40,320 Where she found this this ties in with what you were saying, Eugene. 370 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:46,680 She found that a lot of the younger generation of Palestinians in East Jerusalem now applying for citizenship for Israeli citizenship. 371 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:51,270 And this is something completely taboo amongst the older generations. 372 00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:56,220 And it's a very interesting study of not only changing views on the way forward, 373 00:42:56,220 --> 00:42:59,990 but also changing views on what it actually means to hold Israeli citizenship, 374 00:42:59,990 --> 00:43:03,750 that amongst the younger generation, this is is no longer seen as some kind of Sell-Out. 375 00:43:03,750 --> 00:43:11,040 It's actually seen almost as liberatory because it's a way to claim your rights. 376 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:17,160 Just a reminder to everyone, we've got Julian for a few more minutes, so please do take the opportunity to post your questions in the Q and A box. 377 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:22,620 I know my students in Jordan two hours of me talking about Israel Palestine this week. 378 00:43:22,620 --> 00:43:28,830 So is your chance to hear someone else talk about it for a change? I had a question on this. 379 00:43:28,830 --> 00:43:34,200 I guess to some degree, sort of the flip side of it, Eugene's question about the way forward, 380 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:38,550 which is I was really struck that I think was the beginning of the documentary. 381 00:43:38,550 --> 00:43:43,860 You say, you know, well, everyone says they want peace, so everyone wants peace. 382 00:43:43,860 --> 00:43:49,410 What why does it remain so elusive? That's kind of the core question. And I'm I'm just curious to hear. 383 00:43:49,410 --> 00:43:55,140 Now, having made the film, how you might reflect on that question or how you feel about it now. 384 00:43:55,140 --> 00:43:58,950 Not that there's obviously an easy answer, but but what you might say to that now. 385 00:43:58,950 --> 00:44:08,610 Well, that I'm sorry, because it does sound very simplistic, but it's what Eugene picked up on earlier on, which I do say. 386 00:44:08,610 --> 00:44:15,220 I do think, as I said, that the wall has been. 387 00:44:15,220 --> 00:44:24,190 It has done its job far more than simply as a physical barrier and has made understanding of the other. 388 00:44:24,190 --> 00:44:29,350 So much harder than it was even 20 years ago. 389 00:44:29,350 --> 00:44:39,580 And I think that's. That's a problem. I mean, you know, I have said to several of the Israelis that I was with, you know, 390 00:44:39,580 --> 00:44:46,120 not just the ones on film when filming, go to the West Bank, go and meet people, go and chat to people. 391 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:51,030 And some of them are actually scared. They're really scared. 392 00:44:51,030 --> 00:45:00,090 And that is because the government propaganda campaign or whatever has convinced them that these people are different to that. 393 00:45:00,090 --> 00:45:08,070 And then, you know, on the Palestinian side, again, there's this there's this kind of alien group of people over on the other side, 394 00:45:08,070 --> 00:45:13,670 if you will, that they they only get to see as soldiers. 395 00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:18,890 How in that circumstance is is this situation going to resolve? 396 00:45:18,890 --> 00:45:23,480 I mean, that that has to stop. People have to have to know each other. 397 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:28,130 And I know it sounds simplistic, but put themselves in other people's shoes. 398 00:45:28,130 --> 00:45:34,730 You know, consider consider the humanity of other people in the moment. 399 00:45:34,730 --> 00:45:38,300 That's just not really what's happening. 400 00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:47,540 But then again, if you speak to older Israelis, they many of them will remember going to Gaza to go to the market because, 401 00:45:47,540 --> 00:45:52,940 you know, it had they had really good fresh food and it was cheaper route going to visit places in the West Bank. 402 00:45:52,940 --> 00:45:56,960 And if you speak to older Palestinians, many of them worked in Israel. 403 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:05,000 They speak Hebrew. They spent time with Israelis. And that's a complete contrast with younger generations on both sides who are 404 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:09,380 only really encountering each other in situations that are overtly hostile. 405 00:46:09,380 --> 00:46:14,660 So I think that's another there's a generational aspect at play there as well. 406 00:46:14,660 --> 00:46:19,740 I mean, I remember reading an interview with a man in Gaza who said I used to work in Israel. 407 00:46:19,740 --> 00:46:27,320 I see Hebrew, I. I had Israeli, if not friends and certain Israeli acquaintances means that I actually I understand where they're coming from, 408 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:37,790 even though I don't agree with it. He said, but my kids have absolutely no possibility of any connexion or empathy whatsoever. 409 00:46:37,790 --> 00:46:48,460 And that's a very difficult place to be. You know, I have huge empathy, sympathy for people living in Gaza, I cannot even begin to imagine. 410 00:46:48,460 --> 00:46:55,000 But that needs to change. That attitude needs to change, too, because, you know, we are where we are. 411 00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:02,690 And, you know, whatever solution has to be practically doable. 412 00:47:02,690 --> 00:47:13,230 One of the most depressing things I found in the new documentary was when you interview this younger Israeli gentleman and 413 00:47:13,230 --> 00:47:19,740 his main take away from Gaza is that withdrawing the settlements was wrong because that's encouraged this rocket movement. 414 00:47:19,740 --> 00:47:26,130 And that's really disheartening to see that that's that's the kind of lesson he's taken. 415 00:47:26,130 --> 00:47:36,380 Well, especially because he's a teacher. Did you did you decide explicitly not to say that he was a teacher in the film, or was it just the time? 416 00:47:36,380 --> 00:47:40,930 It was it. It fell down to what what his role in the film was. 417 00:47:40,930 --> 00:47:52,970 OK. So, you know, he was a vox pop. So, you know, the only exception to introductions for Vox Pop that I made was Mrs. Monzur from Hamas, 418 00:47:52,970 --> 00:48:01,310 because it felt important to explain who she was. But otherwise, you know, the whole idea was that these are random people that I've encountered. 419 00:48:01,310 --> 00:48:04,340 You're just telling me what I think. 420 00:48:04,340 --> 00:48:12,520 We're running short on time, but I would be very interested to hear a little bit about the history of the film itself. 421 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:18,780 Have you actually gone to air with the film? It was under the impression that we were sort of in a pre release phase of the film. 422 00:48:18,780 --> 00:48:24,120 And what are the plans for release? Where are you hoping that you can take the message? 423 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:37,390 So I spent two years making the film and last sort of February, I was sure that I was on the home run. 424 00:48:37,390 --> 00:48:44,260 Only to get stopped in my tracks with the final technical processes by it. 425 00:48:44,260 --> 00:48:52,870 So we thought we would be circulating the film by April and in the end, we got the film ready to circulate by September. 426 00:48:52,870 --> 00:48:55,900 It's been doing some festival rounds. 427 00:48:55,900 --> 00:49:06,640 It has been turned down by every German Palestinian film festival we've applied to until about a month and a half ago. 428 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:15,310 And we are going to show in the Boca Raton Jewish Film Festival in Florida with a Q&A as well. 429 00:49:15,310 --> 00:49:22,000 And that's next month. So I think that'll be really interesting because my my attempts to engage with the 430 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:28,630 Jewish community direct on this have been systematically struck back at every turn. 431 00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:36,950 So I'm looking forward to that. We are just engaging our distribution policies, distribute distribution plans. 432 00:49:36,950 --> 00:49:44,420 We have somebody in Britain who will be organising sort of event screenings. 433 00:49:44,420 --> 00:49:52,730 And I hope on the run up to cinema screenings. And then after that happens, it'll go on television and then online and wherever. 434 00:49:52,730 --> 00:50:00,800 And then we're speaking to a worldwide distributor to sell round the world. 435 00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:05,360 And then someone separate four bits of the American market. 436 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:14,600 So it's it's it's quite a long process. And I would expect, you know, it'll it'll proper if it comes out in the cinema. 437 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,850 It'll be towards the end of this year as and when Kofod makes this possible. 438 00:50:19,850 --> 00:50:25,740 And I would expect to see it on television next year or the year after. 439 00:50:25,740 --> 00:50:32,290 Where? Well, we feel privileged really to have gotten a sneak preview before everyone else in the world gets to see it. 440 00:50:32,290 --> 00:50:36,530 Well, thank you so much for bringing it to the Middle East community. Thank you so much. 441 00:50:36,530 --> 00:50:44,010 I really appreciate being invited and having a chance to have a fantastic chat with with all of you. 442 00:50:44,010 --> 00:50:48,910 And a final Parting Shots. I mean, I would echo Eugene. 443 00:50:48,910 --> 00:50:54,890 Thanks, Gillian, for giving up your time and for granting all of us this sieging that the sneak preview. 444 00:50:54,890 --> 00:51:04,220 And I think I would also. Thank you. And, you know, as a historian and as someone who teaches this for and really centring the history and for really 445 00:51:04,220 --> 00:51:08,660 highlighting the importance of thinking about historical context when you're trying to approach this. 446 00:51:08,660 --> 00:51:16,430 So I'm looking forward to seeing where the film goes. Do let us know what kind of reception you got at the festival next month. 447 00:51:16,430 --> 00:51:20,630 Be interested to hear and then we can hopefully keep in touch as well. 448 00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:24,080 Thank you very much again and thank you to everyone for coming in to everyone. 449 00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:28,650 You ask questions. Thank you. And again, lovely. 450 00:51:28,650 --> 00:51:33,130 Lovely to be with you. With that, we bring the evening to a close. 451 00:51:33,130 --> 00:51:38,740 And thank you old for joining us for this conversation with Julia, Bursley, The Tinderbox. 452 00:51:38,740 --> 00:51:53,392 Join us on Friday for an excerpt of.