1
00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:10,240
Welcome, Professor Schneider. Her work is focussed on law and on legal and civil society issues.

2
00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,970
And one of the really, I think,

3
00:00:12,970 --> 00:00:22,210
exciting strengths of her work is that she works across historical periods from the formative period following Islam's founding to the present.

4
00:00:22,210 --> 00:00:26,470
And this gives her work a great deal of historical depth and breadth.

5
00:00:26,470 --> 00:00:33,250
She's been involved in numerous collaborative research projects on Shariya and on civil society.

6
00:00:33,250 --> 00:00:42,250
And she's engaged in particular well, or in addition, in work on SHUTA in Germany, Iran and Indonesia.

7
00:00:42,250 --> 00:00:48,670
Her work consistently puts gender at the centre of legal, historical and social analysis.

8
00:00:48,670 --> 00:00:52,870
And her many publications attest to that. I can't possibly give you a full list.

9
00:00:52,870 --> 00:01:05,650
She's published many, many monographs, collected volumes as well as articles, and she publishes in German, French, English and Farsi.

10
00:01:05,650 --> 00:01:10,000
One book of her, many that I do want to mention is her very useful work.

11
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:17,110
From, I believe, two thousand well women in the Islamic world from the earliest times to the Arab Spring,

12
00:01:17,110 --> 00:01:22,480
which is an incredibly useful source book since 2013.

13
00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:28,450
Professor Schneider has focussed in particular on Palestine. In her research and her teaching.

14
00:01:28,450 --> 00:01:33,790
And she's had an ongoing collaboration with Clits University.

15
00:01:33,790 --> 00:01:36,490
Her recent book is The Outcome of This Work.

16
00:01:36,490 --> 00:01:47,290
It was published last year by Bril and it's entitled Debating the Law Creating Gender, Shari'a and Lawmaking in Palestine 2012 to 2013.

17
00:01:47,290 --> 00:01:53,150
The book focuses on Palestine's vibrant and also at times contentious civil society,

18
00:01:53,150 --> 00:02:03,550
the educational infrastructure and the many elements that go into lawmaking in Palestine and really takes Palestinian society on its

19
00:02:03,550 --> 00:02:12,850
own terms while never losing sight of the fact that it is that all this is happening in a in conditions of political occupation.

20
00:02:12,850 --> 00:02:19,790
Today, she's going to tell us more about that research. And her talk is entitled Debating the Law Creating Gender.

21
00:02:19,790 --> 00:02:25,110
So welcome, Professor Schneider, and over to you.

22
00:02:25,110 --> 00:02:28,280
Thank you very much for this kind introduction, Marilyn.

23
00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:37,710
And thank you very much for inviting me today and for this opportunity to present my book and to discuss it with you.

24
00:02:37,710 --> 00:02:41,730
I think I should know. Try to share my screen.

25
00:02:41,730 --> 00:02:49,130
Everybody, can everybody see the screen? OK. So, yes, this is my new book.

26
00:02:49,130 --> 00:02:56,870
And I'll say something about the background of how I started to work on this topic and then,

27
00:02:56,870 --> 00:03:01,400
of course, try to explain to you my research, focus on my methods.

28
00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:09,200
And yes, I hope I can provoke a discussion about my topics and my results.

29
00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:15,590
I came to Palestine in 2013 to continue my research on the law in context,

30
00:03:15,590 --> 00:03:23,120
legal culture and the question how a legal discussion discussions become or do not become law.

31
00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:32,090
And of course, all this how gender is constructed in this comes in this context during these debates discussions.

32
00:03:32,090 --> 00:03:37,880
Now, when I came to Palestine, I realised that there was a prominent legal discourse on the whole divorce,

33
00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:42,290
divorce, when redemption and the background was a special problem in Palestine,

34
00:03:42,290 --> 00:03:50,150
which might also not be so special to Palestine, at least in in Jordan, for example, your film debates the same problems.

35
00:03:50,150 --> 00:03:58,380
The background was a social problem. According to Palestinian custom, young women and men sign a marriage contract at the time of their engagement,

36
00:03:58,380 --> 00:04:04,860
but have not yet held their wedding party. That means the consummation of the marriage still with their signature.

37
00:04:04,860 --> 00:04:12,590
The marriage is already established under law and the applicable law in Palestine, in the West Bank, at least if the Jordanian law.

38
00:04:12,590 --> 00:04:21,210
Personal status from 1976. And being established like this, it can only be ended by a divorce.

39
00:04:21,210 --> 00:04:25,380
Many young women now faced women now faced a problem finding out that their partners were

40
00:04:25,380 --> 00:04:31,890
not such a match as they imagined before young men disappeared or been asked to refuse.

41
00:04:31,890 --> 00:04:39,780
They refuse to dissolve the marriage. So there was no problem, no possibility for the women to get out of this marriage.

42
00:04:39,780 --> 00:04:46,710
They didn't get it. Get the door lock. And it wasn't this situation that a new ruling given by the Supreme Judge clarion

43
00:04:46,710 --> 00:04:52,380
call that USA is gave women the right to divorce against their husbands wish,

44
00:04:52,380 --> 00:04:57,510
or even when he was absent, when he had left the country to divorce by redemption.

45
00:04:57,510 --> 00:05:02,460
But only before consummation of marriage, it was implemented in the Sharia courts.

46
00:05:02,460 --> 00:05:04,850
And since then applied there.

47
00:05:04,850 --> 00:05:14,240
But this discussion about this new ruling was very controversial, and it lasted for some time from 2000 to roughly 2006 14.

48
00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,550
It was a lively discussion, as I said, about this new ruling, people knew about it.

49
00:05:17,550 --> 00:05:22,220
Journal's reported there were TV programmes about discussions in TV.

50
00:05:22,220 --> 00:05:26,750
So it was in everybody's mouth as I returned more often during the next year.

51
00:05:26,750 --> 00:05:37,030
I realised that the discourse changed and Westerns are on 2014 now replaced by other discourse about how international law,

52
00:05:37,030 --> 00:05:42,710
how international law could be harmonised with Islamic law Sharia at this time.

53
00:05:42,710 --> 00:05:45,380
And this is, of course, the backdrop and background.

54
00:05:45,380 --> 00:05:58,880
President Abbas had signed many international conventions amongst them set-out the women's convention and without, by the way, without any.

55
00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:05,150
Or to have was that was it. And the English word, I missed it without any.

56
00:06:05,150 --> 00:06:09,890
I come to it later. I miss the English word now, Taffe with that in Arabic.

57
00:06:09,890 --> 00:06:19,580
I became interested in comparing these two faces because I think it was quite important to look at the longer that these debates on the longer term.

58
00:06:19,580 --> 00:06:25,080
And I wanted to understand how these debates developed and to understand the logic and find

59
00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:32,890
out when two topics change and how little discussions become or do not become law if they do.

60
00:06:32,890 --> 00:06:43,720
It was only later when I read Shaila in Habib's concept of iterations, which I read and thought, that's exactly what I do.

61
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:50,050
She argues in her book, Democratic iterations are such linguistic, legal,

62
00:06:50,050 --> 00:06:56,440
cultural and political repetitions in transformation invocations, which are revocations,

63
00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:05,380
they not only change established understandings but also transform what passes as the wellat or established view of an authoritative president.

64
00:07:05,380 --> 00:07:14,650
End of quote. And the second quote, which I found interesting in her book, was the following Jewish generative politics.

65
00:07:14,650 --> 00:07:20,650
That means becoming law refers to iterative acts through which a democratic people that considers

66
00:07:20,650 --> 00:07:26,680
itself bound by certain guiding norms and principles reappropriate and reinterprets these.

67
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:32,540
That's showing itself to be not only the subject, but also also of the loss.

68
00:07:32,540 --> 00:07:37,730
This is my italics are for me.

69
00:07:37,730 --> 00:07:44,690
How can I be biased with these iterations in the context of European societies and how they deal with migrants?

70
00:07:44,690 --> 00:07:51,140
This was a topic where migrants coming to the European states of their human rights.

71
00:07:51,140 --> 00:07:55,280
She dealt with the scarf debate in France and so on and so forth.

72
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,780
She never went into linguistic details, as I do.

73
00:07:59,780 --> 00:08:06,770
But I'm quite sure that I could use this as a starting point for my or my research.

74
00:08:06,770 --> 00:08:13,670
I had, for example, already seen that the word for divorce and redemption.

75
00:08:13,670 --> 00:08:23,010
The wording for it, the terms changed during the discourse. It became no Kabah either means traditional means in the in the court.

76
00:08:23,010 --> 00:08:29,780
And it was differentiated from classical ethical as before the classical law by the word retard.

77
00:08:29,780 --> 00:08:34,340
That means Hullett based on concept of husband and wife.

78
00:08:34,340 --> 00:08:39,080
And later on it also. I'll explain this. Enter the stage of figure.

79
00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:46,760
That means redemption. So I focussed in the years to come on discussions not only on the social level, but also on terminology terms,

80
00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:55,010
the petitions in Transformation's to find out how juries generative politics to speak with live loving, happy Pepín.

81
00:08:55,010 --> 00:09:01,580
And I included, of course, the especially agenda language. Yes, sir.

82
00:09:01,580 --> 00:09:05,540
Sorry. So my argument is public debates,

83
00:09:05,540 --> 00:09:14,510
iterations is relevant because them cannot be properly understood without taking into consideration the development of certain legal terms,

84
00:09:14,510 --> 00:09:20,950
repetitions in transformation occurring in these debates or iterations.

85
00:09:20,950 --> 00:09:29,550
And my research questions there are now, how are Ligi reforms initiated, formulated and implemented or not implemented?

86
00:09:29,550 --> 00:09:33,880
Who is the cat? Man, you are just as they told me in Palestine.

87
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,840
I had an interview with an Al Audy, who is a legal adviser.

88
00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:44,830
I was a little twice a two hour bus and I asked him who should be the person to initiate these discourses.

89
00:09:44,830 --> 00:09:50,470
And of course, he said it should be the state, it should be us. And he quoted the the cat.

90
00:09:50,470 --> 00:10:00,340
But in the end of the day, we'll see that in this case at least, or at least in the first question, it was not the state who built the cat.

91
00:10:00,340 --> 00:10:05,830
And of course, I always connected to the question which gender models and gender roles are discussed and put forward?

92
00:10:05,830 --> 00:10:16,520
By whom and where is it situated between the yes, between gender hierarchy on one side and gender equality on the other side.

93
00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:23,150
I use a mixture of sources, texts, of course, international conventions loss very close,

94
00:10:23,150 --> 00:10:28,050
as we often have in the West thing, draught laws, regulations as we have them on from God.

95
00:10:28,050 --> 00:10:41,120
And for that, with no regulation or ruling law court decisions, but more of from the Supreme Court and textbooks,

96
00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,530
I use also media or used also media text and discussions and websites.

97
00:10:45,530 --> 00:10:52,010
I also included the Supreme Judges Lecture in winter semester 2013, the State University,

98
00:10:52,010 --> 00:10:59,960
which I had the chance to visit and which I found very interesting because he in his course about personal status law,

99
00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:08,840
the cause was in personal status law, how he tried to reinterpret the personal status law and how he very much focussed on Islamic law.

100
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:14,870
Of course, all the saying that what the judge has to to use is the applicable law.

101
00:11:14,870 --> 00:11:19,820
And of course, we forgot all the lesson that she taught to hold.

102
00:11:19,820 --> 00:11:25,700
It was full of his experience, thus creating the new new ruling.

103
00:11:25,700 --> 00:11:33,250
I had also interviews with experts. I have to get used to use it like this.

104
00:11:33,250 --> 00:11:44,050
So who are the main actors? If you want to try to understand public debates or iterations, you have mainly three actors.

105
00:11:44,050 --> 00:11:49,390
This is the state Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Women's Affairs. Also, I forgot it got to add here.

106
00:11:49,390 --> 00:11:58,420
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the international relation question, the Sharia establishment men and civil society.

107
00:11:58,420 --> 00:12:05,410
This is very rough and I'm very well aware that you have a lot of interferences between these groups.

108
00:12:05,410 --> 00:12:12,970
So these groups are not homogeneous. And you can perhaps talk about this later in the in the in the discussion.

109
00:12:12,970 --> 00:12:19,300
I'm well aware of this just now to give you a bit an impression with whom I held interviews.

110
00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:24,760
It was this that we had the app. She was minister of women's affairs between 2009 and 14.

111
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:29,920
And then after her, Haifa, Alannah, between 2014 and 19.

112
00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:38,680
Then these are these gentlemen are the two Cogdill. That means that the two supreme judges, Yusuf, at ease between 2012 and 14.

113
00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:44,380
He was the one who issued the ruling and Mahmud Habash since 2014.

114
00:12:44,380 --> 00:12:53,410
He's still in his position. So, yes, this is another person.

115
00:12:53,410 --> 00:12:57,510
This is our FEMA Sharia judges whom we have in the West Bank.

116
00:12:57,510 --> 00:13:04,120
When I was there were three there were three female female judges.

117
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:10,240
Now they are four. I think the last one with whom I had with her, I didn't have any interview or any interference.

118
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:17,390
I don't know her. But the three months at that time, I all this I saw them and I was it with them and I interviewed them.

119
00:13:17,390 --> 00:13:26,660
Now, after the Sharia establishment, we have, of course, civil society and a very strong civil society in Palestine, you might know that,

120
00:13:26,660 --> 00:13:33,890
of course, the EU and also the U.S. eight, at least in the past, gave a lot of money to Palestine to build up the society.

121
00:13:33,890 --> 00:13:41,340
And this is how many civil society organisations, NGOs popped up like this.

122
00:13:41,340 --> 00:13:47,880
Lummus is like quite a famous one. It's Women's Centre for Legal Aid and Counselling.

123
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:55,950
OK, before I come to the two faces, very quickly, something about Palestine.

124
00:13:55,950 --> 00:14:02,640
Now, according to the Basic Law of 2003, legislation takes part in the parliament.

125
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:10,600
Of course, in urgent cases, the president can give decrees, but he only does this very reluctantly in regards to family law.

126
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:17,710
So there are not many decree laws by Abbas you can find.

127
00:14:17,710 --> 00:14:24,970
The parliament in model is not working since 2006. Since the split between Fatah and Hamas.

128
00:14:24,970 --> 00:14:31,090
You see it here above nothing. The doors are closed, but the parliament in Gaza City is working.

129
00:14:31,090 --> 00:14:38,530
It's under Hamas. Under Hamas control, of course.

130
00:14:38,530 --> 00:14:47,010
Yes. Now, again, these two parliaments should give legislation with regard to family law.

131
00:14:47,010 --> 00:14:50,910
We don't have a Palestinian family law, so far as I explained.

132
00:14:50,910 --> 00:14:54,810
The old Jordanian version is still applicable in the West Bank and Gaza.

133
00:14:54,810 --> 00:14:57,540
It's an old Egyptian version of the law.

134
00:14:57,540 --> 00:15:07,000
But the ruling that was given was given by the cordiale that the supreme judge and he has the rank of a minister.

135
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:15,630
But of course, he's not a lawgiver. So it's quite strange to see him that he gives creates the ruling,

136
00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:22,530
which then is implemented in the Sharia courts, which are, of course, part of the Palestinian legal system.

137
00:15:22,530 --> 00:15:30,110
But it hasn't passed in the parliament, of course, at all.

138
00:15:30,110 --> 00:15:38,260
Yes. No, I don't like to come to the first face we have, which I mentioned.

139
00:15:38,260 --> 00:15:46,690
The face line from 2012 to those 2014. Actually, I hold Habash comes in only later after 2014.

140
00:15:46,690 --> 00:15:52,710
Perhaps I should have left only the picture of use of it.

141
00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:59,730
Here. And this is the I mean, this is the ruling which he gave.

142
00:15:59,730 --> 00:16:09,480
Actually, this is only the first page. It's the letter he sent to his Sharia judges, to the judges of his Sharia courts, which he supervises.

143
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,830
And then the other whole ruling. Yes. Try to find it.

144
00:16:13,830 --> 00:16:24,890
It's not so far in the in the Internet of the Dwan article that I received it during a lecture in this age university.

145
00:16:24,890 --> 00:16:34,340
OK. Something more about that very shortly called means, of course, taking off closes, it's it refers to caught on to one hundred eighty seven.

146
00:16:34,340 --> 00:16:43,850
They are Whisnant for you and you are Westerlund for them. But the word Allah doesn't occur in the Koran, in classical Islamic law.

147
00:16:43,850 --> 00:16:47,310
The man has the right to replicate the woman whenever, wherever he wants.

148
00:16:47,310 --> 00:16:50,510
And this is the way it is today in Palestine, too.

149
00:16:50,510 --> 00:16:56,720
He doesn't need a court decision, but women can get divorce only through court, as you, of course, know all.

150
00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:04,970
And then she has to has a certain reasons he doesn't pay the money to her or the maintenance or something like this.

151
00:17:04,970 --> 00:17:09,890
And in the classical form, work for the woman to redeem herself by paying back her dower.

152
00:17:09,890 --> 00:17:16,730
Mostly I don't always. But only when both agrees on the end of the date, the husband decides again.

153
00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:22,440
And of course, for him it's much cheaper than Tarlac because he gets the dollar back.

154
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,060
So this is the regulation V.

155
00:17:24,060 --> 00:17:32,700
We also find in the Jordanian business status law, which is applicable in 1976 in articles one, a two to one hundred twelve.

156
00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:41,010
There was, as you all might know, if a reform law in 2000 in Egypt in which it was given the right to hold,

157
00:17:41,010 --> 00:17:49,470
was given to the women also against the hesitancies, but before and after the start of the marriage.

158
00:17:49,470 --> 00:17:54,850
But in Palestine, it's only before consummation of a marriage. As I said.

159
00:17:54,850 --> 00:18:03,250
Again, in fact, what's the supreme judge? It is a reform of the G.P.A. out there, trading personal status law and your ruling.

160
00:18:03,250 --> 00:18:17,600
And he could be cofferati legislature. Now, the mixed part is taken from the lesson which the body of Christ gave and which I in which I was present,

161
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,140
it was highly interesting because it was his baby.

162
00:18:21,140 --> 00:18:28,910
And he tried to convince the students that this was a very good solution for a very hard and pressing social problem.

163
00:18:28,910 --> 00:18:39,640
So he sat in his lecture. I quote, Islam, give the husband the right to unilaterally repudiate his wife long and obliged him to pay.

164
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,880
And so the Islamic Sharia gave the wife the right to be connected with payment.

165
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:49,430
End of quote. And then he said this can be called equality between men and woman.

166
00:18:49,430 --> 00:18:53,330
End of quote. Mesaba. He called it like this. My father.

167
00:18:53,330 --> 00:18:57,170
And of course, I mean, you can discuss this much, but she still has to go to court.

168
00:18:57,170 --> 00:19:04,730
The husband does not have to go to court and so on and so forth. It's not really equality, but that's the way he called it.

169
00:19:04,730 --> 00:19:16,120
When he reported and told the students how he tried to yes, to present his solutions to the people in the street, as he called it,

170
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:23,890
and he said he was asked in his interviews, say, do you want us to believe it, to be called divorced mador in the passive voice?

171
00:19:23,890 --> 00:19:30,220
So it was really to talk about active and passive because men are active and women are, of course, passive.

172
00:19:30,220 --> 00:19:35,590
And to call a man divorced is something which was not accepted.

173
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:38,530
I heard this very often that this is, of course, the judge's perspective,

174
00:19:38,530 --> 00:19:46,000
how he explained his his experience and how he explained how he implemented the law.

175
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:51,060
He was very eager to show that he discussed to the people and tried to convince them.

176
00:19:51,060 --> 00:19:57,910
And this is true because it lasted three quarters of year, nine months or more until it could be implemented.

177
00:19:57,910 --> 00:20:01,990
And there were many reports on the topic in the media.

178
00:20:01,990 --> 00:20:14,500
But yes, this passive active thing also was very openly and often discussed, not only from by women, by women lawyers or judges, but also by men.

179
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:20,530
Then in the media, this the whole thing, that means the new ruling was called an attack on our men.

180
00:20:20,530 --> 00:20:28,210
Of course, honour exists because I am sitting there and the supreme judge said, why should it be an attack on your honour?

181
00:20:28,210 --> 00:20:35,260
It's a nice and a good word and meant I mean, I would like to, but he and his colleagues gave in at least to this as his presentation.

182
00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:40,450
They gave in and they called it claim of redemption if death, because now this word,

183
00:20:40,450 --> 00:20:45,490
if TDR, at least in the verb form, is in the Koran to two hundred twenty nine.

184
00:20:45,490 --> 00:20:49,780
You hear the underlined if you fear they may not maintain God's violence.

185
00:20:49,780 --> 00:20:57,490
It is no fault in them for her to redeem herself. So you have to Ifti, that the work of it.

186
00:20:57,490 --> 00:21:02,860
And so he continued. Thus, we made it easier for the Palestinian men to accept this solution.

187
00:21:02,860 --> 00:21:08,050
The woman's organisation there behind him, this took behind him in this thing. Some of them wanted the Egyptian solution.

188
00:21:08,050 --> 00:21:16,270
But anyway, it was OK. And of course, he also succeeded in bringing the Shourie establishment back.

189
00:21:16,270 --> 00:21:25,510
So, again, the debate was the debate on onwards, and I used for this also of Alex because Ishita is it, as Kozelek would say,

190
00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:34,060
a traditional term in classical law and woman's redemption for money and husband degrees in Palestine 2012 in the ruling?

191
00:21:34,060 --> 00:21:40,360
It was something new. It was a call against. Think that's still before consummation of marriage?

192
00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:45,470
The man protested. It was changed to either Ifti DAP or judicial.

193
00:21:45,470 --> 00:21:52,990
Well, that actually in the later in the later text, he called it Ifti.

194
00:21:52,990 --> 00:22:05,500
But in the Techmeme itself, it could be called about. And all this, as we learnt before, was Moussab, according to you, it was the equality.

195
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:18,400
And this is quite important because this term equality is also used in CDL for gender equality.

196
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:28,640
So we come to the now to the second phase. International law, CEDO, Messala, equality between roughly 2014 and 18.

197
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:39,310
And here it was debated. How could be international law, COLQUITT International law be harmonised with national legislation in Palestine?

198
00:22:39,310 --> 00:22:44,680
Not an easy thing as you have this very old legislation from 1976, as I said.

199
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:52,750
But anyway, in 2014, President Abbas signed international conventions and also the women's convention without reservation.

200
00:22:52,750 --> 00:22:57,070
This was the word I was looking for before. Sorry. Without any reservation.

201
00:22:57,070 --> 00:23:00,550
This is very strange for an Arab country. Normally they have a Muslim country.

202
00:23:00,550 --> 00:23:07,560
They all have reservations, either saying generally the Sharia is the reservation or in detail.

203
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:14,770
So Palestine is signed with all of these. Abbas signed without any any reservation.

204
00:23:14,770 --> 00:23:20,830
The Supreme Constitutional Court issued a judgement in November 2000 17.

205
00:23:20,830 --> 00:23:31,210
And in this judgement, Druid unit Bouttier under lined international treaties extend above Nesh national legislation.

206
00:23:31,210 --> 00:23:38,330
Sorry. So what follows so far as they are in harmony with the national, religious and cultural identity who we are.

207
00:23:38,330 --> 00:23:45,370
Of the Arabic Palestinian peoples is a sentence which again steered quite a lot of discussion amongst Palestinian Joyce.

208
00:23:45,370 --> 00:23:54,760
But at first, it seems to say that the Supreme Constitutional Court sees international law above national law.

209
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,640
Here again, the CEDO Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.

210
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:08,410
This is, of course, the English translation. And here you have in a to embody the principle of the equality sabbar of men and

211
00:24:08,410 --> 00:24:13,930
women in the national constitutions or either appropriate legislation and so on.

212
00:24:13,930 --> 00:24:23,050
So Mazama is in the text. And as you might know, the U.N., one of the officiate U.N. languages, is Arabic.

213
00:24:23,050 --> 00:24:38,510
So the Arabic text them. By the by the U.N. had contained this word moussab for gender equality in the English version becomes gender equality.

214
00:24:38,510 --> 00:24:46,400
So what happens now? In 2018, the Palestinian delegation had to travel to Geneva and 2078 14.

215
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:53,450
It was signed in 2018. The delegation travelled to Geneva to submit the first report on Sudan.

216
00:24:53,450 --> 00:25:05,570
You have to submit in regular times reports of explaining to CEDO how you applied the rulings of CEDO.

217
00:25:05,570 --> 00:25:11,790
How was no equality introduced into the Palestinian Nedra's legislation?

218
00:25:11,790 --> 00:25:16,020
Nothing much had happened, actually, but in Palestine in this time,

219
00:25:16,020 --> 00:25:25,890
iteration started about the impossibility of harmonising international law and outdated and outdated National Assembly legislation.

220
00:25:25,890 --> 00:25:32,040
Women's organisations like Recht, like I showed it before, argue, of course, in favour of international law and especially CEDO,

221
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:38,910
and then demanded reforms and they submitted also shed or reports to the set-out committee.

222
00:25:38,910 --> 00:25:47,130
Now, still nothing happened. My hypothesis is, and I can come to explain later that Mesaba,

223
00:25:47,130 --> 00:25:53,940
the word for equality could have been the starting point point for really translating the global into the local.

224
00:25:53,940 --> 00:26:00,240
That means international law into the national law. If it would have been that, it is to be discussed in detail.

225
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,830
So how could Salah look like independence teniente context?

226
00:26:04,830 --> 00:26:12,750
It wouldn't, for example, extinguish polygamy for the moment because it's a very deeply rooted institution in a Palestinian society,

227
00:26:12,750 --> 00:26:20,790
as in most other Arabic societies, that it could have started with things like the marriage age,

228
00:26:20,790 --> 00:26:28,560
raising the marriage age to 18 or something like this. But so far, we don't have a draught law on the table.

229
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,170
And, of course, no law. And this time, a series of reports in London.

230
00:26:33,170 --> 00:26:42,570
This is an news agency was published between June 21st and June 30, 2018.

231
00:26:42,570 --> 00:26:46,400
And the title was Palestine discusses interpretations of the Sharia,

232
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:52,280
which can be harmonised with CEDO and the split between scholars of religions and politicians.

233
00:26:52,280 --> 00:27:01,380
Politicians becomes wider. And of course, so exactly the topic which needs to be discussed to translate from international law to national law.

234
00:27:01,380 --> 00:27:13,310
The Yes gender equality discussion focussed not so much on terms that more on general things like the basic law of the role of the Sharia.

235
00:27:13,310 --> 00:27:17,330
Mohammed al Habash, when we met before I said, I quote,

236
00:27:17,330 --> 00:27:22,850
We are ready to harmonise the law with international law under the condition that the principles of Sharia are not violated.

237
00:27:22,850 --> 00:27:29,000
End of quote this sentence, you can hear me often, and not only in Palestine.

238
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:40,010
And then he argued that according to the basic law, Sharia, is there a quote, the principal source of legislation and muster and assessing?

239
00:27:40,010 --> 00:27:49,580
You might know that there's a big discussion about that. Our principal sources in some of the of the basic laws in the Arab world.

240
00:27:49,580 --> 00:27:53,300
In Palestine, the content.

241
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:57,020
Glad Mahmoud Abbas didn't quote it exactly because it's not there.

242
00:27:57,020 --> 00:28:01,000
It's a principle. So you have other sources. This is like you.

243
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:07,310
While the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said Sharry is one of the foundations of the Palestinian laws.

244
00:28:07,310 --> 00:28:09,920
And he said, I quote, Our law is not Sharia.

245
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:20,990
A is one of the sources and Massada, end of quote ism Abdeen from the NGO and said the Constitution is clear about the Prince Accord principles.

246
00:28:20,990 --> 00:28:26,810
My body of Islamic Sharia and of quote and not the rules can empty-headed.

247
00:28:26,810 --> 00:28:35,150
There's a big difference between principles and a heated discussion about how to interpret the basic law.

248
00:28:35,150 --> 00:28:39,870
But no solutions are for so far. How to apply.

249
00:28:39,870 --> 00:28:49,020
It wasn't this moment and there was a discussion in the public and then there was also fighting because I mean, Palestine had signed the CDL.

250
00:28:49,020 --> 00:28:58,320
Abbas had signed it. And, yes, wanted to be taken into to play a role in international law,

251
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,780
to be accepted in the international group of peer of countries was signed, CEDO and so on and so forth.

252
00:29:03,780 --> 00:29:08,640
And so they have to it really applied. But in this moment and there was a discussion.

253
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,760
Mahmoud Habash gave an interview.

254
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:19,710
This was a December 2018 stating that, according to court, for a thirty four life teaching of women for educational purposes.

255
00:29:19,710 --> 00:29:28,050
Except, of course, you know all this Rizal Collamore, not a man stand up women, but the woman and then he them.

256
00:29:28,050 --> 00:29:35,820
I argue in my book that this can be seen as a conscious provocation because it ended the debate in this moment.

257
00:29:35,820 --> 00:29:41,310
The whole debate of how to harmonise national and international law came to a stop.

258
00:29:41,310 --> 00:29:47,160
And until today, we have no draught of a Palestinian family law on the table.

259
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,390
The supreme judge avoided a discussion of the term Osama. He didn't go into detail.

260
00:29:51,390 --> 00:29:57,090
He didn't even say, OK, he could perhaps start, as I said before, with the marriage age of 18 or something else.

261
00:29:57,090 --> 00:30:00,210
But no, he just stopped the discussion.

262
00:30:00,210 --> 00:30:10,860
And the women's societies and the NGOs, they're upset that they even wanted to try to get him out of the of the of the journals and of the TV.

263
00:30:10,860 --> 00:30:15,900
So he couldn't argue like this anymore because they said we have argued so

264
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:20,250
long that heating of a woman is is forbidden and especially killing of women.

265
00:30:20,250 --> 00:30:24,450
Palestine has also honour killing or femicide problem.

266
00:30:24,450 --> 00:30:36,750
And we shouldn't discuss this again. There's also a draught law and not on the table, but it's there which is dealing with violence in family.

267
00:30:36,750 --> 00:30:41,820
Anyway, no further discussion. So my conclusion is language matters and iterations.

268
00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:49,260
But going one step further, I argue with the iterations can only become joice generative if new terminology.

269
00:30:49,260 --> 00:30:57,120
For example, if Didak is developed and accepted in public spheres or after the men are accepted that it's de de.

270
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:05,300
And his word is rooted in Guran, it could be a new form of it could be applied.

271
00:31:05,300 --> 00:31:08,930
Otherwise, yes, it will and cannot become law a de facto law.

272
00:31:08,930 --> 00:31:13,490
I'm gonna call this to I mean, this ruling a de facto law, Sharia establishment.

273
00:31:13,490 --> 00:31:20,870
And I think it's very powerful. It's a powerful player. And in Face Lumb, the show, the establishment succeeded in implementing a new ruling.

274
00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:26,840
The use of East did really implemented putting face to the sheriff's department.

275
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:35,870
This time, Mahmoud Habash stopped the iteration process about the question of how to harmonise international law and Sharia and give ya.

276
00:31:35,870 --> 00:31:47,140
Yes. I'm at the end of my presentation. Thank you for listening. And I'm, of course, waiting for questions.

277
00:31:47,140 --> 00:31:53,560
Thank you very much, Professor Schneider. That's it. It's a fascinating look at these important issues that are going.

278
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,120
Have been going on in Palestine, but are, of course, important all across the region.

279
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:04,720
And I guess I have. It raises a number of just really interesting questions.

280
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,060
So thank you very much for the rich talk.

281
00:32:07,060 --> 00:32:12,460
And I know that I'm certainly looking forward to reading the book, and I'm sure that a lot of other people are as well.

282
00:32:12,460 --> 00:32:28,107
So thank you so much for giving us your time and allowing us to hear about your work today.