1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,820 Professor Schneider of Work has focussed on law and on legal and civil society issues. 2 00:00:05,820 --> 00:00:07,860 And one of the really, I think, 3 00:00:07,860 --> 00:00:17,130 exciting strengths of her work is that she works across historical periods from the formative period following Islam's founding to the present. 4 00:00:17,130 --> 00:00:21,390 And this gives her work a great deal of historical depth and breadth. 5 00:00:21,390 --> 00:00:28,170 She's been involved in numerous collaborative research projects on Shariya and on civil society, 6 00:00:28,170 --> 00:00:34,650 and she's engaged, in addition, in work on SHUTA in Germany, Iran and Indonesia. 7 00:00:34,650 --> 00:00:41,070 Her work consistently puts gender at the centre of legal, historical and social analysis. 8 00:00:41,070 --> 00:00:45,310 And her many publications attest to that. I can't possibly give you a full list. 9 00:00:45,310 --> 00:00:57,360 She's published many, many monographs, collected volumes as well as articles, and she publishes in German, French, English and Farsi. 10 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,710 One book of her, many that I do want to mention, is her very useful work. 11 00:01:01,710 --> 00:01:08,790 From, I believe, 2000. Well, women in the Islamic world from the earliest times to the Arab Spring, 12 00:01:08,790 --> 00:01:17,430 which was an incredibly useful source book since 2013, Professor Schneider has focussed in particular on Palestine. 13 00:01:17,430 --> 00:01:24,510 In her research and her teaching. And she's had an ongoing collaboration with its university. 14 00:01:24,510 --> 00:01:27,210 Her recent book is The Outcome of This Work. 15 00:01:27,210 --> 00:01:38,010 It was published last year by Bril and it's entitled Debating the Law Creating Gender, Shari'a and Lawmaking in Palestine 2012 to 2013. 16 00:01:38,010 --> 00:01:43,880 The book focuses on Palestine's vibrant and also at times contentious civil society, 17 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:53,400 the educational infrastructure and the many elements that go into lawmaking in Palestine and really takes Palestinian society 18 00:01:53,400 --> 00:02:00,600 on its own terms while never losing sight of the fact that all this is happening in conditions of political occupation. 19 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:07,500 Today, she's going to tell us more about that research. And her talk is entitled Debating the Law Creating Gender. 20 00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:11,700 So welcome, Professor Schneider, and over to you. 21 00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:14,870 Thank you very much for this kind introduction, Marilyn. 22 00:02:14,870 --> 00:02:23,340 And thank you very much for inviting me today and for this opportunity to present my book and to discuss it with you. 23 00:02:23,340 --> 00:02:29,850 I think I should now try to share my screen. Can everybody see the screen? 24 00:02:29,850 --> 00:02:39,280 OK. Yes, this is my new book. And I'll say something about the background of how I started to work on this topic. 25 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,600 And then, of course, try to explain to you my research, focus on my methods. 26 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:49,930 And, yes, I hope I can provoke a discussion about my topics and my results. 27 00:02:49,930 --> 00:02:56,330 I came to Palestine in 2013 to continue my research on law in context, 28 00:02:56,330 --> 00:03:03,820 legal culture and the question how a legal discussion discussions become or do not become law. 29 00:03:03,820 --> 00:03:10,990 And of course, all this how gender is constructed in this context during these debates, discussions. 30 00:03:10,990 --> 00:03:16,630 When I came to Palestine, I realised that there was a prominent legal discourse on the divorce, divorce, 31 00:03:16,630 --> 00:03:23,290 when redemption and the background was a special problem in Palestine, which might also not be so special to Palestine. 32 00:03:23,290 --> 00:03:28,630 At least in Jordan, for example, your film debates the same problems. 33 00:03:28,630 --> 00:03:36,810 The background was a social problem. According to Palestinian custom, young women and men sign a marriage contract at the time of their engagement, 34 00:03:36,810 --> 00:03:43,370 but have not yet held their wedding party. That means the consummation of the marriage still with their signature. 35 00:03:43,370 --> 00:03:48,460 The marriage is already established under law and the applicable law in Palestine, in the West Bank, 36 00:03:48,460 --> 00:03:56,620 at least if the joint Jordanian law of personal status from 1976 and being established like this. 37 00:03:56,620 --> 00:04:03,040 It can only be ended by a divorce. Many young women now faced a problem finding out that their partners were not such 38 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:09,010 a match as they imagined before young men disappeared or been asked to refuse. 39 00:04:09,010 --> 00:04:15,670 They refused to dissolve the marriage. So there was no possibility for the women to get out of this marriage. 40 00:04:15,670 --> 00:04:24,460 They didn't give that get the door lock. And it was in this situation that a new ruling given by the supreme judge clarion call that you, Sophocles, 41 00:04:24,460 --> 00:04:32,650 gave women the right to divorce against their husbands wish, or even when he was absent, when he had left the country to divorce by redemption. 42 00:04:32,650 --> 00:04:37,600 But only before consummation of marriage, it was implemented in the Sharia courts. 43 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:49,020 And since then applied there. But this discussion about this new ruling was very controversial, and it lasted for some time from 2012 roughly to 2014. 44 00:04:49,020 --> 00:04:57,000 It was a lively discussion, as I said, about this new ruling people knew about Journal's reported there were TV programmes about discussions in TV. 45 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,530 So it was in everybody's mouth as I returned more often during the next two years. 46 00:05:01,530 --> 00:05:08,020 I realised that the discourse changed and Westerns are on 2014 now replaced by 47 00:05:08,020 --> 00:05:13,860 other discourse about how international law could be harmonised with Islamic law, 48 00:05:13,860 --> 00:05:21,930 Sharia at this time. And this is, of course, the background. President Abbas had signed many international conventions amongst them, 49 00:05:21,930 --> 00:05:33,180 set out the women's convention and without, by the way, Taffe with that in Arabic, without any reservation this. 50 00:05:33,180 --> 00:05:40,770 I became interested in comparing these two faces because I think it was quite important to look at these debates on the longer term. 51 00:05:40,770 --> 00:05:45,620 And I wanted to understand how these debates developed and to understand the logic and find 52 00:05:45,620 --> 00:05:53,030 out when two topics change and how little discussions become or do not become law if they do. 53 00:05:53,030 --> 00:06:02,840 It was only later when I read Shaila and had beeps concept of iterations which I read and thought, that's exactly what I do. 54 00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:08,480 She argues in her book, Democratic iterations are such linguistic, legal, 55 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:14,870 cultural and political repetitions in transformation invocations, which are revocations. 56 00:06:14,870 --> 00:06:23,840 They not only change established understandings, but also transform what passes as the wellat or established view of an authoritative president. 57 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:32,420 End of quote. And second quote, which I found interesting in her book, was the following Jewish generative politics. 58 00:06:32,420 --> 00:06:38,090 That means becoming law refers to iterative acts through which a democratic people that considers 59 00:06:38,090 --> 00:06:44,120 itself bound by certain guiding norms and principles reappropriate and reinterprets these. 60 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:49,700 That's showing itself to be not only the subject, but also also of the loss. 61 00:06:49,700 --> 00:07:00,830 This is my italics are for me. How can I be biased with these iterations in the context of European societies and how they deal with migrants? 62 00:07:00,830 --> 00:07:06,260 This was a topic where migrants coming to the European states of their human rights. 63 00:07:06,260 --> 00:07:09,860 She dealt with the scarf debate in France and so on and so forth. 64 00:07:09,860 --> 00:07:19,730 She never went into linguistic details, as I do, but I'm quite sure that I could use this as a starting point for my research. 65 00:07:19,730 --> 00:07:29,090 I had, for example, already seen that the word for divorce and redemption, the wording for it, the terms changed during the discourse. 66 00:07:29,090 --> 00:07:34,570 It became now Kabah either means to digital means in the court, 67 00:07:34,570 --> 00:07:41,120 and it was differentiated from classical ethical as before, the classical by the word radar. 68 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,650 That means Hullett based on consent of husband and wife. 69 00:07:45,650 --> 00:07:50,390 And later on, it also explained this. Enter the stage of figure. 70 00:07:50,390 --> 00:07:58,090 That means redemption. So I focussed in the years to come on discussions not only on the social level, but also on terminology, terms, 71 00:07:58,090 --> 00:08:06,340 repetitions in transformations to find out how joyous generative politics to speak with love, loving, happy. 72 00:08:06,340 --> 00:08:13,830 And I included, of course, especially gender language. So my argument is public debates, 73 00:08:13,830 --> 00:08:22,800 iterations is relevant because them cannot be properly understood without taking into consideration the development of certain legal terms, 74 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:29,220 repetitions in transformation occurring in these debates or alterations. 75 00:08:29,220 --> 00:08:37,820 And my research questions there are now, how are Ligi reforms initiated, formulated and implemented or not implemented? 76 00:08:37,820 --> 00:08:42,150 Who is the cat? Man, you live just as they told me in Palestine. 77 00:08:42,150 --> 00:08:46,110 I had an interview with an Al Audy, who is a legal adviser. 78 00:08:46,110 --> 00:08:52,500 I was a little twice the two hour bus and I asked him who should be the person to initiate these discourses. 79 00:08:52,500 --> 00:08:58,140 And of course, he said it should be the state, it should be us. And he quoted the spouse, the cat. 80 00:08:58,140 --> 00:09:08,010 But in the end of the day, we'll see that in this case at least, or at least in the first question, it was not the state who built the cat. 81 00:09:08,010 --> 00:09:08,460 And of course, 82 00:09:08,460 --> 00:09:16,710 I always connected the question with gender models and gender roles are discussed and put forward by whom and where is it situated between gender, 83 00:09:16,710 --> 00:09:21,900 hierarchy on one side and gender equality on the other side. 84 00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:29,820 I use a mixture of sources, text, of course, international conventions loss very close, as we often have in the worst thing. 85 00:09:29,820 --> 00:09:39,820 Draught laws, regulations as we have the man from God in that with law regulation ruling must law court decisions. 86 00:09:39,820 --> 00:09:48,480 But more from the Supreme Court and textbooks. I use also media or used also media texts and discussions and websites. 87 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:54,360 I also included the Supreme Judges Lecture in Winter Semester 2013 State University, 88 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:59,130 which I had the chance to visit and which I found very interesting because he 89 00:09:59,130 --> 00:10:04,230 in his course about personal status smol the cause was in personal status law, 90 00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:10,590 how he tried to reinterpret the personal status law and how he very much focussed on Islamic law. 91 00:10:10,590 --> 00:10:15,750 Of course, all the saying that what the judge has to to use is the applicable law. 92 00:10:15,750 --> 00:10:20,070 And of course, with we got hold the lesson the chittick taught to whole. 93 00:10:20,070 --> 00:10:25,620 It was full of his experience with creating the no new ruling. 94 00:10:25,620 --> 00:10:29,450 I had also interviews with experts. 95 00:10:29,450 --> 00:10:38,390 So who are the main actors, if you want to try to understand public debates or iterations, you have mainly three actors. 96 00:10:38,390 --> 00:10:43,730 This is the state Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Women's Affairs. Also, I forgot got to add here. 97 00:10:43,730 --> 00:10:52,460 The Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the international relation question, the Sharia establishment ment and civil society. 98 00:10:52,460 --> 00:10:59,450 This is very rough and I'm very well aware that you have a lot of interferences between these groups. 99 00:10:59,450 --> 00:11:05,540 So these groups are not homogeneous and you can perhaps talk about this later in the discussion. 100 00:11:05,540 --> 00:11:10,610 I'm well aware of this just now to give you a bit an impression with whom I held interviews. 101 00:11:10,610 --> 00:11:16,070 It was this that we had the actually she was minister of women's affairs between 2009 and 14. 102 00:11:16,070 --> 00:11:21,240 And then after her Haifa Alanah between 2014 and 19. 103 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:29,720 Then these are these gentlemen are the two Cogdill. That means that the two supreme judges, Yusoff, at ease between 2012 and 14. 104 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:35,420 He was the one who issued the ruling and Mahmoud Habash since 2014. 105 00:11:35,420 --> 00:11:41,500 He's still in his position. So this is another person. 106 00:11:41,500 --> 00:11:45,590 This is our FEMA Sharia judges whom we have in the West Bank. 107 00:11:45,590 --> 00:11:49,940 When I was there were three there were three FEMA judges. 108 00:11:49,940 --> 00:11:56,130 No, they are for, I think the last one with whom I had with her, I didn't have any interview or any interference. 109 00:11:56,130 --> 00:12:02,930 I don't know her about the three months at the time. I oldest saw them and I visited them and I interviewed them. 110 00:12:02,930 --> 00:12:11,110 Now, after the Sharia establishment, we have, of course, civil society and a very strong civil society in Palestine, you might know that, 111 00:12:11,110 --> 00:12:18,370 of course, the EU and also the U.S. eight, at least in the past, gave a lot of money to Palestine to build up the society. 112 00:12:18,370 --> 00:12:26,140 And this is how many civil society organisations, NGOs popped up, like Islamists, like quite a famous line. 113 00:12:26,140 --> 00:12:38,410 It's Women's Centre for Legal Aid and Counselling. OK, before I come to the two faces, very quickly, something about Palestine. 114 00:12:38,410 --> 00:12:45,100 Now, according to the Basic Law of 2003, legislation takes part in the parliament. 115 00:12:45,100 --> 00:12:53,060 Of course, in urgent cases, the president can give decrees, but he only does this very reluctantly in regards to a family law. 116 00:12:53,060 --> 00:12:59,120 So there are not many decree laws by Abbas you can find. 117 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:07,450 The parliament in Ramallah is not working since 2006. Since the split between Fatah and Hamas, you see it here above nothing. 118 00:13:07,450 --> 00:13:11,870 The doors are closed, but the parliament in Gaza City is working. 119 00:13:11,870 --> 00:13:15,580 It's under Hamas control, of course. 120 00:13:15,580 --> 00:13:24,160 Now, again, these two parliaments should give legislation with regard to family law, and we don't have a Palestinian family law so far as I explained. 121 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,050 The old Jordanian version is still applicable in the West Bank and Gaza. 122 00:13:28,050 --> 00:13:30,400 It's an old Egyptian version of the law. 123 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:39,370 But the ruling that was given was given by the cordiale code that the supreme judge and he has the rank of a minister. 124 00:13:39,370 --> 00:13:46,210 But, of course, he's not a logotype. So it's quite strange to see him that he creates the ruling, 125 00:13:46,210 --> 00:13:52,870 which then is implemented in the Sharia courts, which are, of course, part of the Palestinian legal system. 126 00:13:52,870 --> 00:13:58,910 But it hasn't passed in the parliament, of course, at all. 127 00:13:58,910 --> 00:14:04,900 No, I don't like to come to the first face we have, which I mentioned. 128 00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:13,340 The face line from 2012 to those 2014. Actually, I hold Habash comes in only later after 2014. 129 00:14:13,340 --> 00:14:19,190 Perhaps I should have left only the picture of use of it here. 130 00:14:19,190 --> 00:14:23,630 And this is the I mean, this is the ruling which he gave. Actually, this is only the first page. 131 00:14:23,630 --> 00:14:30,770 It's the letter he sent to these Sharia judges, to the judges of his Sharia courts, which he supervises. 132 00:14:30,770 --> 00:14:34,100 And then the the whole ruling tried to find it. 133 00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:44,490 It's not so far in in the Internet of the Adwan article that I received it during a lecture in this age university. 134 00:14:44,490 --> 00:14:53,940 OK. Something more about it very shortly, Holly means, of course, taking off closes, it refers to caught on to one hundred eighty seven. 135 00:14:53,940 --> 00:15:03,420 They are Whisnant for you and you are Westerlund for them. But the word Allah doesn't occur in the Koran, in classical Islamic law. 136 00:15:03,420 --> 00:15:06,910 The man has the right to replicate the woman whenever, wherever he wants. 137 00:15:06,910 --> 00:15:14,430 And this is the way it is today in Palestine, too. He doesn't need a court decision, but women can get divorce only through courts. 138 00:15:14,430 --> 00:15:24,120 You, of course, know all. And then she has to has a certain reasons he doesn't pay the money to her or the maintenance or something like this. 139 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:29,100 And in the classical form, work for a woman to redeem herself by paying back her dower. 140 00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:35,920 Mostly a dollar always, but only when both agrees on the end of the date, the husband decides again. 141 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,930 And of course, for him it's much cheaper than Tarlac because he gets the dollar back. 142 00:15:40,930 --> 00:15:42,550 So this is the regulation V. 143 00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:51,190 We also find in the Jordanian personal status law, which is applicable in 1976 in articles one, a two to one hundred twelve. 144 00:15:51,190 --> 00:15:59,500 There was, as you all might know, if a reform law in 2000 in Egypt in which it was given the right to hold, 145 00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:06,960 was given to the women also against the husbands. But before and after the start of the marriage. 146 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,160 But in Palestine, it's only before consummation of a marriage. 147 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:20,770 And as I said again, in fact, what's the supreme judge did is a reform of the G.P.A. out, the trading personal status law and your ruling. 148 00:16:20,770 --> 00:16:32,960 And he could be comprehensive legislation. Now, the next part is taken from the lesson which the podium Cuidad gave, which I which I was present. 149 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,500 It was highly interesting because it was his baby. 150 00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:44,270 And he tried to convince the students that this was a very good solution for a very hard and pressing social problem. 151 00:16:44,270 --> 00:16:53,790 So he sat in his lecture. I quote Islam, give the husband the right to unilaterally repudiate his wife for long and obliged him to pay, 152 00:16:53,790 --> 00:16:57,990 and the Islamic Sharia gave the wife the right to fully connected with payment. 153 00:16:57,990 --> 00:17:04,140 End of quote. And then he said this can be called equality between men and woman, end of quote. 154 00:17:04,140 --> 00:17:09,640 Mesaba. He called it like this. Moussab. And of course, I mean, you can discuss this much. 155 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,220 She still has to go to court. The husband does not have to go to court and so on and so forth. 156 00:17:14,220 --> 00:17:18,840 It's not really equality, but that's the way he called it. 157 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:28,280 When he reported and told the students how he tried to present his solutions to the people in the street, as he called it, 158 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:36,100 and he said he was asked in his interviews, say, do you want us to believe it to be called divorced mador in the passive voice? 159 00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:42,430 So it was really to talk about active and passive because men are active and women are, of course, passive. 160 00:17:42,430 --> 00:17:47,800 And to call a men divorced is something which was not accepted. 161 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,710 I heard this very often and this is, of course, the judge's perspective, 162 00:17:50,710 --> 00:17:58,180 how he explained his his experience and how he explained how he implemented the law. 163 00:17:58,180 --> 00:18:03,280 He was very eager to show that he discussed to the people and tried to convince them. 164 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:10,120 And this is true because it lasted three quarters of year, nine months or even more until it could be implemented. 165 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:13,810 And there were many reports on the topic in the media. 166 00:18:13,810 --> 00:18:25,880 But yes, this passive, active thing also was very openly and often discussed, not only from by women, by women lawyers or judges, but also by men. 167 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:31,430 Then in the media, this the whole thing, that means the new ruling was called an attack on our man. 168 00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:38,810 Of course. I'm sad because I sitting there and the supreme judge said, why should it be an attack on your honour? 169 00:18:38,810 --> 00:18:45,860 It's a nice and a good word. My Jemena with Labour. But he and his colleagues gave in at least to this as his presentation. 170 00:18:45,860 --> 00:18:48,290 They gave in and they called it claim of redemption. 171 00:18:48,290 --> 00:18:56,080 If today because now this word, if today, at least in the verbal form, is in on to two hundred twenty nine, 172 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,380 you can hear the underlined if you fear they may not maintain God's balance. 173 00:19:00,380 --> 00:19:08,070 It is no fault in them for her to redeem herself. So you have to, Ifti, that the work of. 174 00:19:08,070 --> 00:19:13,440 And so he continued. Thus, we made it easier for the Palestinian men to accept this solution. 175 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:18,630 The woman's organisation there behind him, this took behind him in this thing. Some of them wanted the Egyptian solution. 176 00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:26,520 But anyway, it was OK. And of course, he also succeeded in bringing the Shourie establishment back. 177 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:35,760 So, again, the debate was that the debate on onwards and I used for this also cause Alex Kritsky, she did call it, as Kozelek would say, 178 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:43,950 a traditional term in classical law and one redemption for money and husband degrees in Palestine 2012 in the ruling. 179 00:19:43,950 --> 00:19:50,250 It was something new. It was against something that's still before consummation of marriage. 180 00:19:50,250 --> 00:19:55,270 The man protested. It was changed to either Ifti DAP or judicial. 181 00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:59,800 Well, that actually in that in the later text, he called it Ifti. 182 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:08,260 But in the Techmeme itself, it could be called that. And all this, as we learnt before, was Moussab. 183 00:20:08,260 --> 00:20:19,220 According to him, it was equality. And this is quite important because this term equality is also used in CDL for gender equality. 184 00:20:19,220 --> 00:20:28,470 So we come down to the second phase. International law, CEDO, Messala, equality between roughly 2014 and 18. 185 00:20:28,470 --> 00:20:36,590 And it was debated. How could how could international law be harmonised with national legislation in Palestine? 186 00:20:36,590 --> 00:20:41,570 Not an easy thing as you have this very old legislation from 1976, as I said. 187 00:20:41,570 --> 00:20:48,840 But anyway, in 2014, President Abbas signed international conventions and also the women's convention without reservation, 188 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,880 this without any reservation. This is very strange for an Arab country. 189 00:20:52,880 --> 00:21:01,610 Normally they have a Muslim country. They all have reservations, either saying generally the Sharia is the reservation or in detail. 190 00:21:01,610 --> 00:21:08,150 So Palestine signed with all of these. Abbas signed without any any reservation. 191 00:21:08,150 --> 00:21:13,850 The Supreme Constitutional Court issued a judgement in November two thousand seventeen. 192 00:21:13,850 --> 00:21:21,420 And in this judgement, Drouet international treaties extend above national legislation. 193 00:21:21,420 --> 00:21:25,920 So what follows so far as they are in harmony with the national, religious and cultural identity who we are. 194 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:32,090 Of the Arabic Palestinian people is a sentence which again steered quite a lot of discussion amongst Palestine. 195 00:21:32,090 --> 00:21:42,360 Joyce. But at first, it seems to say that the Supreme Constitutional Court sees international law above national law. 196 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:47,430 Here again, the CEDO Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women. 197 00:21:47,430 --> 00:21:55,470 This, of course, the English translation. And here you have in a two embody the principle of the equality sabbar of men and 198 00:21:55,470 --> 00:22:00,960 women in the national constitutions or either appropriate legislation and so on. 199 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:09,280 So Mazama is in the text. And as you might know, the U.N., one of the official U.N. languages, is Arabic. 200 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:22,170 So the Arabic text. By the U.N. had contained this word moussab for gender equality in the English version becomes gender equality. 201 00:22:22,170 --> 00:22:27,480 So what happens now? In 2018, the Palestinian delegation had to travel to Geneva. 202 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:35,410 In 2014, it was signed in 2018. The delegation travelled to Geneva to submit the first report on Sudan. 203 00:22:35,410 --> 00:22:44,820 You have to submit in regular times reports of explaining to CEDO how you applied the rulings of CEDO. 204 00:22:44,820 --> 00:22:51,040 How was no equality introduced into the Palestinian Nedra's legislation? 205 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,640 Nothing much had happened, actually, but in Palestine in this time, 206 00:22:54,640 --> 00:23:01,870 iteration started about the impossibility of harmonising international law and outdated national family legislation. 207 00:23:01,870 --> 00:23:08,020 Women's organisations like Recht, like I showed it before, argue, of course, in favour of international law and especially CEDO, 208 00:23:08,020 --> 00:23:14,890 and they've demanded reforms and they submitted also shed or reports to the CDL committee. 209 00:23:14,890 --> 00:23:22,570 No, still nothing happened. My hypothesis is, and I can come to explain later that Mesaba, 210 00:23:22,570 --> 00:23:28,990 the word for equality could have been the starting point for really translating the global into the local. 211 00:23:28,990 --> 00:23:35,290 That means international law into the national law. If it would have been, it is to be discussed in detail. 212 00:23:35,290 --> 00:23:39,880 So how could Salah look like independence team in context? 213 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:47,050 It wouldn't, for example, extinguish polygamy for the moment because it's very deeply rooted institution infesting society, 214 00:23:47,050 --> 00:23:53,980 as in most other Arabic societies, that it could have started with things like the marriage age, 215 00:23:53,980 --> 00:24:00,630 raising the marriage age to 18 or something like this. That's so five, you don't have draught law on the table. 216 00:24:00,630 --> 00:24:11,690 And, of course, no law. And this time the series of reports in them, this is isn't news agency was published between June 21st and June 30, 217 00:24:11,690 --> 00:24:19,430 2018, and the title Lost Palestine discusses interpretations of the Sharia, which can be harmonised with CEDO. 218 00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:23,860 And the split between the scholars of religions and politicians becomes wider. 219 00:24:23,860 --> 00:24:30,680 And of course, so exactly the topic which needs to be discussed to translate from international law to national law. 220 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:40,970 The gender equality discussion focussed not so much on terms that more on general things like the basic law of the role of the Sharia. 221 00:24:40,970 --> 00:24:44,540 Mohammed al Habash, when we met before I said, I quote, 222 00:24:44,540 --> 00:24:50,090 We are ready to harmonise the law with international law under the condition that the principles of Sharia are not violated. 223 00:24:50,090 --> 00:24:55,070 End of quote, the sentence you can hear very often, and not only in Palestine. 224 00:24:55,070 --> 00:25:04,810 And then he argued that according to the basic law, Sharia, is there a quote, the principal source of legislation and muster and assessing? 225 00:25:04,810 --> 00:25:07,070 You might know that there's a big discussion about that. 226 00:25:07,070 --> 00:25:17,770 Our principal sources in some of the basic laws in the Arab world, in Palestine, the content that Mahmoud Abbas didn't quoted. 227 00:25:17,770 --> 00:25:22,510 Exactly, because it's not that it's. Or you have other sources. 228 00:25:22,510 --> 00:25:30,040 This is like while the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said Sherry is one of the foundations of the Palestinian laws. 229 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,640 And he said, I quote, Our law is not Sharia. 230 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:43,150 A cherry is one of the sources and Massada, end of quote, and Islam Abdeen from the NGO and said the Constitution is clear about accord principles. 231 00:25:43,150 --> 00:25:48,970 My body of Islamic Sharia. End of quote. And not the rules come Empty-headed. 232 00:25:48,970 --> 00:25:57,310 There's a big difference between principles and a heated discussion about how to interpret the basic law. 233 00:25:57,310 --> 00:26:01,820 But no solutions are for so far how to oblige. 234 00:26:01,820 --> 00:26:08,150 It wasn't this moment and there was a discussion in the public and then there was also fighting because I mean, 235 00:26:08,150 --> 00:26:18,560 Palestine had signed the Siedel Wiki's, Abbas had signed it and wanted to be taken into to play a role in international law, 236 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,510 to be accepted in the international group of countries, was signed, CEDO and so on and so forth. 237 00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:28,080 And so they have to it really applied. But in this moment and there was this discussion. 238 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,860 Mahmoud Habash gave an interview. 239 00:26:30,860 --> 00:26:38,810 This wasn't December 2018 stating that, according to court, for a thirty four life teaching of women for educational purposes. 240 00:26:38,810 --> 00:26:42,300 Except of course, you know all this reason why more advanced. 241 00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:47,130 And if women want the. And then he. Them. 242 00:26:47,130 --> 00:26:54,450 I argue in my book that this can be seen as a conscious provocation because it ended the debate in this moment. 243 00:26:54,450 --> 00:26:59,520 The whole debate of how to harmonise national and international law came to a stop. 244 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,260 And until today, we have no draught of the Palestinian family law on the table. 245 00:27:04,260 --> 00:27:08,460 The supreme judge avoided a discussion of the term moussab. He didn't go into detail. 246 00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:14,190 He didn't even say, OK, he could perhaps start, as I said before, with the marriage age of 18 or something else. 247 00:27:14,190 --> 00:27:19,920 But no, he just stopped the discussion and the women's societies and the N g O's, 248 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:25,830 they're upset that they even wanted to try to get him out of the journals and off the TV. 249 00:27:25,830 --> 00:27:29,640 So he couldn't argue like this anymore because they said, 250 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,860 we have argued so long that heating of a woman is is forbidden and especially killing of women. 251 00:27:34,860 --> 00:27:40,340 Palestine has also honour killing or femicide problem, and we shouldn't discuss this again. 252 00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:48,990 There's also a draught law not on the table, but it's there which is dealing with violence in family. 253 00:27:48,990 --> 00:27:54,090 Anyway, no further discussion. So my conclusion is language matters and iterations. 254 00:27:54,090 --> 00:28:01,110 But going one step further, I argue with the titrations can only become joice generated if new terminology. 255 00:28:01,110 --> 00:28:06,180 For example, if detA is developed and accepted in the public sphere, sought after, 256 00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:11,940 the men accepted that it's Iftikhar and his word is rooted in Koran. 257 00:28:11,940 --> 00:28:20,360 It could be a new form of it could be applied. Otherwise, yes, it will and cannot become law a de facto law. 258 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:24,920 I'm gonna call this to I mean, this ruling a de facto law, Sharia establishment. 259 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:32,340 And I think it's very powerful. It's a powerful player. And in face, when the show, the establishment succeeded in implementing a new ruling, 260 00:28:32,340 --> 00:28:38,270 the use of these did really implemented putting face to the SRES department. 261 00:28:38,270 --> 00:28:47,300 This time, Mahmoud Habash stopped the iteration process about the question of how to harmonise international law and Sharia and give ya. 262 00:28:47,300 --> 00:28:54,370 Yes. And at the end of my presentation, thank you all for listening. And I'm, of course, waiting for questions. 263 00:28:54,370 --> 00:28:56,590 Thank you very much, Professor Schneider. That's it. 264 00:28:56,590 --> 00:29:05,350 It's a fascinating look at these important issues that are going have been going on in Palestine but are, of course, important all across the region. 265 00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:10,180 And I guess it raises a number of just really interesting questions. 266 00:29:10,180 --> 00:29:15,610 And I know that I'm certainly looking forward to reading the book, and I'm sure that a lot of other people are as well. 267 00:29:15,610 --> 00:29:21,670 So thank you so much for giving us your time and allowing us to hear about your work today. 268 00:29:21,670 --> 00:29:26,020 Thank you so much for inviting me and discussing with me this this. It's a pleasure. 269 00:29:26,020 --> 00:29:29,830 And thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Much of our audience. 270 00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:33,069 And we'll hope to see you next term. Goodbye.