1 00:00:07,810 --> 00:00:11,470 Good evening and welcome. My name is Michael Willis. 2 00:00:11,470 --> 00:00:17,260 I'm one of the fellows here, Middle East Centre at St. Anthony's College at the University of Oxford. 3 00:00:17,260 --> 00:00:23,620 And it gives me great pleasure to introduce you to the sixth seminar, this series in our series. 4 00:00:23,620 --> 00:00:30,880 We've been running every Friday evening this term and a term on the Arab uprisings, 10. 5 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:38,800 And I'm very pleased to introduce this seminar, but we are running jointly with the British Tunisian society, 6 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,760 which gives you an idea about the topic we'll be discussing this evening. 7 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,570 But I'm very pleased that the with the support of the British Tunisian society, 8 00:00:46,570 --> 00:00:52,210 but have really been crucial in putting this whole event to get them a very grateful to the BTX. 9 00:00:52,210 --> 00:00:57,640 I'm particularly grateful to the person who will be chairing very involved in the British Tunisian society, 10 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:03,160 somebody that is a good friend of the centre and somebody I'm sure many of you know very well. 11 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,660 Professor Charles Triplette. So as who will be introducing the seminar this evening. 12 00:01:07,660 --> 00:01:14,620 Charles. Michael, thank you very much indeed. And thanks to St. Antony's for making it impossible to bowl. 13 00:01:14,620 --> 00:01:18,760 I think what I should say first is something a bit about the British Tunisian society itself, 14 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:25,270 just to say that it was established or re-established in 2018 as a society meant to 15 00:01:25,270 --> 00:01:29,200 build on the friendship and understanding between Tunisia and the United Kingdom. 16 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:39,250 So connecting people in both countries with a common interest and with knowledge about each other's histories, cultures, societies and their politics. 17 00:01:39,250 --> 00:01:42,430 And of course, that's what the contribution will be this evening. 18 00:01:42,430 --> 00:01:49,090 So the panel this evening was intended or is intended to give us a chance to reflect on some of 19 00:01:49,090 --> 00:01:57,280 the achievements of the past 10 years since the revolution and the overthrow of Ben Ali in 2011, 20 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:57,970 but also, of course, 21 00:01:57,970 --> 00:02:07,360 the unfinished business and the unrealised hopes that have marked Tunisia's trajectory since the revolutionary events of 2010 2011. 22 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:12,640 Because like all revolutions, it's a longer process and some hopes have been disappointed. 23 00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:23,990 Some have been fulfilled. And it's really, too, to reflect upon that, which we have asked our very distinguished two speakers to help us through. 24 00:02:23,990 --> 00:02:28,600 And I just want to introduce the two speakers before handing over to them. 25 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:36,190 I wanted to use first Dr. Heller Amar, who is a professor of law at the University of Tunis, but also a visual artist. 26 00:02:36,190 --> 00:02:41,170 And one could say that her two roles were vividly demonstrated in 2011. 27 00:02:41,170 --> 00:02:52,660 First of all, with her participation in the art project autocracy inside out that use art to reclaim public spaces in Tunisia with the revolution, 28 00:02:52,660 --> 00:02:55,840 and secondly with our membership of the commission set up by the Tunisian 29 00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:00,970 government in 2011 to look into the conditions of prisons across the country, 30 00:03:00,970 --> 00:03:06,490 striking artworks have been exhibited and form part of collections in Tunisia and internationally. 31 00:03:06,490 --> 00:03:12,760 And if all goes well in the middle of May, you will see some of them exhibited in a new exhibition coming on at the British 32 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,860 Museum called Reflections Contemporary Art from the Middle East and North Africa. 33 00:03:17,860 --> 00:03:24,760 When museums are allowed to reopen again and are other speaker equally distinguished in a different field? 34 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:32,350 Professor Mohammed Keru is Professor of Political Science at the University of Tunis, but also a member of The Better Hikma, 35 00:03:32,350 --> 00:03:40,570 the Tunisian Academy of Sciences, Arts and Letters, and a founding member of the Tunisian Observatory for Democratic Transition. 36 00:03:40,570 --> 00:03:51,310 He's published numerous articles and books and most recently in 2018, so eager to see all the other evolution and just appeared, I think, in Tunis. 37 00:03:51,310 --> 00:03:58,270 Jemina, NYSE delivery, also the gem, not the oasis of the revolution, which has just come out. 38 00:03:58,270 --> 00:04:04,390 So before I turn to Dr Hellam, our first I should say something about the format of the evening. 39 00:04:04,390 --> 00:04:09,310 Our speakers will each have about ten to twelve minutes to give us some of their reflections. 40 00:04:09,310 --> 00:04:14,470 I might then lead off with a couple of questions and open the floor, as it were. 41 00:04:14,470 --> 00:04:22,290 You can see it. I'm still in presume mentality. I still think there's a floor, but there isn't to open the floor with for all of you. 42 00:04:22,290 --> 00:04:27,640 For more general questions and discussion that will be chaired by Dr Michael Willis. 43 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:32,980 So I'm happy to turn over the floor or the screen to help. 44 00:04:32,980 --> 00:04:37,720 Help, please. Good evening. Thank you so much, Charles. 45 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:43,180 And I'm glad I'm glad to be here to be here with you today. 46 00:04:43,180 --> 00:04:49,390 Yes. Actually, evolution has opened the door to every possible. 47 00:04:49,390 --> 00:05:01,870 And indeed, we we are able to do and to explore and to do things and to explore has never been explored during Bernardes regime. 48 00:05:01,870 --> 00:05:08,920 So to talk about the. Months. And the changes that happened just after the revolution. 49 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,590 I will take two examples, actually, 50 00:05:11,590 --> 00:05:21,880 I would be speaking about two main projects that marked my career as an artist and that marked me also as a citizen. 51 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:29,050 The first one is visiting prisons and testifying about human rights in Tunisia. 52 00:05:29,050 --> 00:05:39,670 A few weeks after the revolution, as you say, Johns, three national commissions were set up by the provisional government at this time. 53 00:05:39,670 --> 00:05:52,600 And I was appointed as a member of one of them. That commission of enquiry on the abuses committed during the revolution. 54 00:05:52,600 --> 00:06:03,940 Our mission was basically to investigate all types of abuses such as death and bullet injuries, 55 00:06:03,940 --> 00:06:12,470 but also a mutiny in prisons and to determine the response of the political responsible parties. 56 00:06:12,470 --> 00:06:21,070 So so actually, this commission was the first tool of the transitional justice in Tunisia. 57 00:06:21,070 --> 00:06:28,780 And during one year, we we we did, for example, as far as I'm concerned, 58 00:06:28,780 --> 00:06:38,230 I was in the subcommission of prisons and during the year I visited prisons with three other members of the of this commission. 59 00:06:38,230 --> 00:06:47,230 And this was the first time ever. Then civilians entered prisons before and before that before that time. 60 00:06:47,230 --> 00:06:56,770 So during this regime, it was only the Red Cross that was able to visit prisons and their reports were confidential. 61 00:06:56,770 --> 00:07:04,510 So no one could know what was happening to into prisons. 62 00:07:04,510 --> 00:07:18,490 Of course, we were aware that human rights were floating, of course, but no one could imagine how bad were the conditions of detentions where. 63 00:07:18,490 --> 00:07:28,960 So after this so we could we were able for the first time to testify about the human rights violation in prisons. 64 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:37,300 And one year after. So the report has been published and. 65 00:07:37,300 --> 00:07:41,880 In the same time I was down myself, I have to do something about this, 66 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:47,670 I have to testify not only as a member, as a jurist, as a member of this commission, 67 00:07:47,670 --> 00:07:57,660 but also as a citizen who has lived something, something huge, you know, talking with that with inmates, 68 00:07:57,660 --> 00:08:05,700 visiting prisons, exploring a field that I would never imagine exploring before. 69 00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:13,800 So there was there is still a festival of art in public spaces. 70 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:26,730 To me, it's called the Dream City. And this for this is this year, I choose to testify about what I lift into prison with with this commission. 71 00:08:26,730 --> 00:08:35,010 And I. I showed Virk pictures I took during a year in prisons. 72 00:08:35,010 --> 00:08:49,970 And actually I replenished the prison universe with with the pictures and also testimonies of of the prisoners. 73 00:08:49,970 --> 00:08:57,030 And it was, it was really a great experience because of two things. 74 00:08:57,030 --> 00:08:57,370 First, 75 00:08:57,370 --> 00:09:09,750 I think it was the first time and I think it will be the last one also because because unfortunately no one is is able to take picture into prisons. 76 00:09:09,750 --> 00:09:18,810 So I think there would be only those one those the one I took during this case this year. 77 00:09:18,810 --> 00:09:26,100 And the cigar is for the second reason because, you know, prison in Tunisia, it was taboo. 78 00:09:26,100 --> 00:09:31,140 Like No one talk about prisons. 79 00:09:31,140 --> 00:09:41,840 We had only few testimony from the prisoners under Bourguiba Logush Tunisian. 80 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:51,360 So. So we didn't know what what was happening. What didn't happen there. 81 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:57,390 So, yes, 10 years after after visiting prison, what has changed? 82 00:09:57,390 --> 00:10:05,370 I think the conditions of detention hasn't said they haven't changed that much. 83 00:10:05,370 --> 00:10:13,130 Even if some some some reform, some reforms have been undertaken. 84 00:10:13,130 --> 00:10:25,320 But still, you know, still more generally, many steps have been made in terms of transitional justice, rehab, dilatation of victims and so on. 85 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:30,020 But still, the process is not finished yet. 86 00:10:30,020 --> 00:10:42,700 The second example is the second project was called Arctic Husky Inside Programme, initiated by French photographer G. 87 00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:46,520 And in March 2006 and eleven. 88 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:58,250 And this project will replace the portrait of an idea which was everywhere, you know, in every street, in every every everywhere in Tunisia. 89 00:10:58,250 --> 00:11:07,070 So where we choose to replace the portrait of Ben Ali by thousands of portraits of unknown Tunisians, the sum was a symbolic, 90 00:11:07,070 --> 00:11:16,680 was strong, and we thought that it would be a beautiful homage to Tunisian people, the Tunisian people. 91 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:25,520 But the funniest thing was that we were expecting such reaction from from people in the street. 92 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:38,000 We were passing the pictures that the portraits and in the same time, even the people who helped us to pass the pictures were ripping them apart. 93 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:49,670 It was it was completely unexpected. And also, we faced very hostile and violent reactions from from people in the street. 94 00:11:49,670 --> 00:11:58,220 Some of them were saying that we are unbelievers because you're a woman representation. 95 00:11:58,220 --> 00:12:10,910 And so portraits are forbidden in Islam. Sullivan would say also that the portraits, black and white portraits are ugly. 96 00:12:10,910 --> 00:12:21,830 And instead, we should have bastad like colour, age lines, like capes, bund trees, some flowers, etc. 97 00:12:21,830 --> 00:12:35,810 Some of them also disagreed with putting strangers portraits of strangers in their walls, their streets, they their neighbourhood. 98 00:12:35,810 --> 00:12:43,710 And instead we have and they were saying instead you have you should have busted the portraits of myself. 99 00:12:43,710 --> 00:12:54,410 I'm not known what went on in my in my country or or in my in my neighbourhood or in my street. 100 00:12:54,410 --> 00:13:03,260 Actually, as I said as I said, you know, the reaction were completely unexpected and hard to understand. 101 00:13:03,260 --> 00:13:13,490 But if we look deeper into them, we can see what has changed since the fall of the regime. 102 00:13:13,490 --> 00:13:23,540 And this also could explain what happened later and what what we are still experiencing now. 103 00:13:23,540 --> 00:13:30,050 First of all, we heard the first for the first time, the first the voices of Salafis, 104 00:13:30,050 --> 00:13:40,820 or at least of conservative people who would put religion above all freedoms. 105 00:13:40,820 --> 00:13:51,610 It's also these reactions also shows a show how much people how much people wear and see the art. 106 00:13:51,610 --> 00:14:01,720 I'm familiar with art in public space and maybe also I'm familiar with the concept of public space, 107 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:07,180 with the concept of living and doing together in a public space. 108 00:14:07,180 --> 00:14:15,790 And this is pretty normal. You know, after more than 20 years of dictatorship. 109 00:14:15,790 --> 00:14:29,030 So, in fact, everyone was appropriating this this public space, a public space that never quite freely used before. 110 00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:43,130 Another thing is that I think the most important thing that all of them all fuss even us as artists or citizen we're experimenting with. 111 00:14:43,130 --> 00:14:48,950 We were experimenting a very new freedom of speech. 112 00:14:48,950 --> 00:15:03,130 Even even if even if that seemed to me you'd like one dictator at this time to have one dictator has been has been replaced by 11 million dictators. 113 00:15:03,130 --> 00:15:06,670 So that was yeah, that was the feeling I had this day. 114 00:15:06,670 --> 00:15:14,800 And maybe sometimes even now, you know, with all the demonstrations across the country. 115 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:20,200 So, yes, if I want to summarise, I think I reached my time. 116 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:27,340 If I want you to summarise, I'd say that the major change that has lasted is the freedom of speech. 117 00:15:27,340 --> 00:15:36,130 Today, we have the right, but also the power to speak out to contests and to denounce. 118 00:15:36,130 --> 00:15:47,080 This is, of course, a huge achievement. And some would say that 10 years after the revolution, this is not enough. 119 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:57,280 And we're still expecting more significant chancers changes that would make Tunisia reached a democratic country. 120 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,970 Thank you. Thank you very much. Really interesting. 121 00:16:00,970 --> 00:16:01,840 And thank you so much. 122 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:09,910 For keeping to your time schedule in a very good way and then giving us a lot of things to think about, which we'll come back to in the questions. 123 00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:21,990 But now I'd like to turn to Mohammed Mohammed Karu to give his reflections from a slightly different perspective possibly of the last 10 years. 124 00:16:21,990 --> 00:16:29,730 Good evening. I am very happy to take part to the webinar. 125 00:16:29,730 --> 00:16:34,590 Thank you all very much to all the organisers and participants. 126 00:16:34,590 --> 00:16:40,650 And the question is, where are we today? Ten years after. 127 00:16:40,650 --> 00:16:48,840 While this is a simple equation, a question, the answer is not always obvious. 128 00:16:48,840 --> 00:17:00,750 From my point of view, there are at least the three components of the historical process of evolution and the political transition. 129 00:17:00,750 --> 00:17:05,940 First of all, the relationship between old and the new regime. 130 00:17:05,940 --> 00:17:16,320 Second, the building of democratic institutions and third, social movements since the time devoted to the presentation is short. 131 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:22,830 I wish I would focus on the third issue, which is related to social movements. 132 00:17:22,830 --> 00:17:30,160 And during the debate, I will come back, if you want to, the two other components. 133 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:41,350 So concerning social movements, we could say that young people are still mobilised as far as the objectives of the revolution, 134 00:17:41,350 --> 00:17:46,840 which are as you know, a freedom and dignity are not realise it yet. 135 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:52,010 They are demonstrating in the streets and public places. 136 00:17:52,010 --> 00:18:02,850 Using social media. Of course. Ten years after the revolution, young people feel frustrated. 137 00:18:02,850 --> 00:18:08,490 For having waited so long without any achievements. 138 00:18:08,490 --> 00:18:19,440 So the revolutionary process is still continuing by following three parties or three main day elections. 139 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:25,080 First of all, the path. So we could say the path of the gym now. 140 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:34,560 Second, the path or the case, because there are cases that studies case workers of come. 141 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:42,360 And the third is urban demonstrations. Let's begin with the Jimena. 142 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:51,030 Jimena is a small village and also an oasis located in the south of Tunisia in the southwest of Tunisia. 143 00:18:51,030 --> 00:18:56,980 There are social actors are involved in a battle on the right of the land. 144 00:18:56,980 --> 00:19:05,670 And since 2011, they have occupied the ancient colonial domain or farm. 145 00:19:05,670 --> 00:19:14,370 If you want colonial farm planted with parliament and producing dates. 146 00:19:14,370 --> 00:19:17,610 This farm belongs to the national state. 147 00:19:17,610 --> 00:19:31,160 Of course, the challenge then is between the legality, the national state legality and the people democratic legitimacy. 148 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:39,290 In 2011, some people of Jemina created comedy, revolutionary comedy, 149 00:19:39,290 --> 00:19:51,340 but one year later in 2012, they transformed the committee in an NGO association with NGO. 150 00:19:51,340 --> 00:19:53,890 During 10 years, they are controlled. 151 00:19:53,890 --> 00:20:04,780 They are taking control of the domain and collectively as a collectively cell of managing the land and its resources to the benefits, 152 00:20:04,780 --> 00:20:17,190 to the benefit of the community of Jemina. Gymnast striving for dignity and collective identity is probably I do say probably. 153 00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:23,600 So don't don't take it for granted. It's just to put it is. 154 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:29,580 Maybe he's the only success story of the Tunisian revolution. 155 00:20:29,580 --> 00:20:36,540 Second, the second case is alcohol. These pumping are. 156 00:20:36,540 --> 00:20:43,590 And the gas station is located, as you know, in the extreme so far from that, 157 00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:55,540 without C8 minders in Kabul or around that car, more people have occupied the station and they formate coordination. 158 00:20:55,540 --> 00:21:02,450 Coordination Committee representing eight localities of the governorate or the region of that 159 00:21:02,450 --> 00:21:10,840 are we they negotiated with the government and reached an agreement which not been implemented. 160 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:16,290 The better for sharing of wealth and social justice. 161 00:21:16,290 --> 00:21:23,860 It got more. It is organised through an informal structure in an informal organisation. 162 00:21:23,860 --> 00:21:30,060 It seems to me that if that turns out to be a counter social movement. 163 00:21:30,060 --> 00:21:35,230 Because it's more concerned with blocking the prediction. 164 00:21:35,230 --> 00:21:42,250 And opposing the state line, promoting a constructive social social project lection. 165 00:21:42,250 --> 00:21:50,860 Finally, the urban protesters, the field of urban protests is both the poor district of Tunisian cities and the public. 166 00:21:50,860 --> 00:22:03,910 Places like Avenue will give Avenue like Essabar and the public place of Libardo in the poor districts located in the periphery of the city's. 167 00:22:03,910 --> 00:22:13,420 This is related to the logical fry it having four major social actors out of school, youth people. 168 00:22:13,420 --> 00:22:21,940 Meanwhile, the political actors in the public places are you educated at high school and universities. 169 00:22:21,940 --> 00:22:29,830 They express through the revolutionary slogans the rejection, the rejection of the new political power. 170 00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:34,060 They receive it as consett about conservative and corrupted. 171 00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:44,720 What is remarkable? He's the missing link link, the missing link link between the two about protest movements, 172 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:51,320 which are also not strongly connected to civil society, mainly, mainly labour union. 173 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:58,840 From that Gamma's. The weakness of social movements in Tunisia was revolution. 174 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:04,860 Thank you very much and welcome to your comments and remarks. Ahmed, thank you very much. 175 00:23:04,860 --> 00:23:09,690 I think it gives us a flavour of what we're going to meet in the book on Jemina. 176 00:23:09,690 --> 00:23:16,110 That's coming out. That's a good foretaste as well. I mean, I thought that before I opened the floor. 177 00:23:16,110 --> 00:23:24,660 But the screen, as it were, to discussion for everyone. I might put a couple of questions to both of you to see if you how you respond to it, 178 00:23:24,660 --> 00:23:32,310 because it seemed the both of you in different ways had addressed it seem to be a key question of the revolution, 179 00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:37,890 which is how should one be a Tunisian citizen after revolution? 180 00:23:37,890 --> 00:23:45,990 What are the possibilities of citizenship? What are the possibilities artistically? And also in terms of, as I said, what? 181 00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:52,020 What role does art play in making people more aware of their rights to public space and elsewhere? 182 00:23:52,020 --> 00:24:03,990 So I'd ask Heller a bit about do you think that art in Dream City, in public space by moving into public space, has opened people's eyes to things? 183 00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:08,400 Has it increased debate if you had a certain amount of resistance at the beginning? 184 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,950 Has it overcome it? So that would be one area. 185 00:24:10,950 --> 00:24:20,260 And then for Mohammed, I think, again, one of the interesting questions is if you think that the conditions of citizenship. 186 00:24:20,260 --> 00:24:23,150 That you described in Jemina have been made possible. 187 00:24:23,150 --> 00:24:28,370 What do you think that makes it possible that that makes it quite troubling and difficult in other areas, 188 00:24:28,370 --> 00:24:35,300 even in places where it's come close to it, like Cam or Kirkconnell or other other areas of Tunisia? 189 00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:41,780 So, hello. Would you take up that question of the question of the effect of art in public space, 190 00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:48,190 whether it's enlarged it, whether it's simply entrenched divisions? 191 00:24:48,190 --> 00:25:03,220 I think that that art has has played a major role in in letting people be familiar with the public space. 192 00:25:03,220 --> 00:25:12,460 Actually, just after the revolution, there were a lot of exhibitions, a lot of of arts in the public space. 193 00:25:12,460 --> 00:25:19,930 And in this time, like in this time, like two years, like two, three years after the revolution, 194 00:25:19,930 --> 00:25:29,740 people were still not familiar with this form of art, like dancing theatre in public space or even painting, et cetera. 195 00:25:29,740 --> 00:25:44,020 And I said to people, but it was also the government that was not familiar with that, with its ways of expression, you know. 196 00:25:44,020 --> 00:25:52,480 And I remember the happily, happily what happened in Libya. 197 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,730 And this time it was a huge exhibition. 198 00:25:57,730 --> 00:26:11,380 And and people came and. And I said that this art is against religion and we are art as artists and believers, et cetera. 199 00:26:11,380 --> 00:26:26,660 And it set fire to the country, you know. And government at this time, which was composed of by a by another by the religion of the religious party. 200 00:26:26,660 --> 00:26:33,280 Agreed with these people, you know? And we were like like them. 201 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:45,500 Like completely as artists, completely. Favoured by these people and by the government. 202 00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:58,190 But fortunately, you know, after this, people get used to to see artists in the streets, artists dancing, painting, etc. 203 00:26:58,190 --> 00:27:03,480 So I think. I was always talking about living together. 204 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:09,150 You know, I think this is as an artist, we as artists, 205 00:27:09,150 --> 00:27:21,900 we are responsible also of making things happen, you know, and creating a link between us, our art. 206 00:27:21,900 --> 00:27:29,270 But it's also people, people in public spaces. 207 00:27:29,270 --> 00:27:36,320 As course can do that. I mean, it's it's a it's a good answer and it leads you to think of many other possibilities that come out of it as well. 208 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:44,210 But that's exactly what we were after. Mohammed, I don't know whether you want to think a bit about the the question of citizenship in your contexts. 209 00:27:44,210 --> 00:27:54,130 Yeah. Yeah. I think this is his ship is a process and there is not achieve it. 210 00:27:54,130 --> 00:28:04,450 It is continuing. And the case of Jim, it has been interesting because they it demonstrate is not there. 211 00:28:04,450 --> 00:28:19,730 There is both rapture with all the regime and the NSA to build a new regime at the local level and discipline them not. 212 00:28:19,730 --> 00:28:27,240 And the successor regime now is thinking doing them, which will could triple life. 213 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:33,200 Three daughters of Jemina. First of all, the art of negotiation. 214 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:40,280 They had a lot of negotiation with the government, the very recognition of the government. 215 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:46,040 And that's a lot of negotiation. Of all, the ministers are gone. 216 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:53,210 And there is that tradition of migration, not tradition of migration. 217 00:28:53,210 --> 00:28:58,070 And this helps to link local and global. 218 00:28:58,070 --> 00:29:06,890 With national and global, of course, and the gymnast, you have also a tradition of knowledge, local knowledge. 219 00:29:06,890 --> 00:29:16,720 There are many intellectuals, many militants which have a great experience of politics. 220 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:22,290 That's it, very much that's fabulous. It's interesting looking at the different combinations and how that exists in different places. 221 00:29:22,290 --> 00:29:28,860 I think there are plenty of questions now coming from the floor as I'd hand over to Michael to chair. 222 00:29:28,860 --> 00:29:32,100 He's been watching them all. And then he will put them to you. 223 00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:36,170 But thank you both very much indeed. Thank you very much, Charles. 224 00:29:36,170 --> 00:29:44,690 Yes. We've got questions coming in, and just to let you know, if you would like to put a question to either one or both of the speakers tonight, 225 00:29:44,690 --> 00:29:51,620 you you can type it into a Q&A bar that you'll see on your screen and it will come up if you want to be identified, 226 00:29:51,620 --> 00:29:54,880 to put your name, if you'll be anonymous. That's absolutely fine. 227 00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:00,500 And I'll try and get through as many of the questions as I can before the end of our session. 228 00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:05,210 But the first question comes from Yusuf Sharif. 229 00:30:05,210 --> 00:30:08,050 Very nice to have you join us. Yousef. 230 00:30:08,050 --> 00:30:17,990 And he addresses these questions, Mohammed or as he very, very correctly see Mohammed CARU and UCITS question is, and I quote, 231 00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:26,300 We often mention the objectives of the revolution in quotation marks when describing the events of the last decade. 232 00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:35,040 But who defined these objectives? How can we establish objectives and demands which are organisational elements in a protest? 233 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,740 But no, Fullwood with that has no formal organisation. 234 00:30:39,740 --> 00:30:47,670 So, Mohammed, very interesting question. And I'm not surprised because Yusuf is the clever man, 235 00:30:47,670 --> 00:30:59,660 the clever and the good friend who is following the current situation in Tunisia, who defined the low objective, these objectives. 236 00:30:59,660 --> 00:31:07,300 There is no definition of objective. It was defined it by by the slogan of the revolution. 237 00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:10,700 There is not formal definition of the term. 238 00:31:10,700 --> 00:31:19,250 But the slogan one of the slogan, one of the main slogan of the revolution was Work Labour Day and Dignity. 239 00:31:19,250 --> 00:31:27,110 National Dignity. Of course, these. Is ambiguous as a slogan. 240 00:31:27,110 --> 00:31:33,050 But people deal with that ambiguous slogan during the revolutionary process. 241 00:31:33,050 --> 00:31:39,760 There is no institutional definition of the objectives of the revolution. 242 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:46,390 It's produced by a mass mobilisation research by the history of mobilisation. 243 00:31:46,390 --> 00:31:52,500 And is still continuing. Of course. Thank you very much indeed for that. 244 00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:57,900 And this question goes to Hillah. And this comes from Ezgi, Basra. 245 00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:05,400 Good to see you, Askey. Thank you for joining us and asking would like I was intrigued by one statement you made. 246 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,870 Hello. She'd like you to elaborate more on it, saying, 247 00:32:09,870 --> 00:32:17,300 can you elaborate more on the statement one dictator was replaced by, I think you said 11 million dictators. 248 00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:22,420 It's something more about that. I was intrigued by that. Exactly what you meant by that as well. 249 00:32:22,420 --> 00:32:28,880 Yeah. Actually, during that Chinese regime, no one could say anything. 250 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,970 You know, other low was low. 251 00:32:30,970 --> 00:32:45,340 And even if we were waiting for more freedom or for more freedom of speech or for more dignity or for more things like this, 252 00:32:45,340 --> 00:32:53,350 you know, we we stood quiet and. And then after the following the regime, 253 00:32:53,350 --> 00:33:00,730 everyone would ask things you would never ask during Bernanke's that regime for 254 00:33:00,730 --> 00:33:08,410 himself without dealing with with the expectations of the of other people. 255 00:33:08,410 --> 00:33:12,910 You know, like this is Mike's treat. We don't have you. 256 00:33:12,910 --> 00:33:17,230 You don't you are not allowed to stand in my street. 257 00:33:17,230 --> 00:33:26,020 This is my job. You're not allowed to to come to my office or this is my company, you know. 258 00:33:26,020 --> 00:33:30,280 And I want the best for my company. I don't care about yours. 259 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:37,450 So people were asking things for themselves without without caring about other people. 260 00:33:37,450 --> 00:33:48,340 And this is why I said that this is actually this is a work in a work in process, 261 00:33:48,340 --> 00:33:54,340 because this is about living together and dealing with our expectations. 262 00:33:54,340 --> 00:34:02,860 But, of course, with the expectations of other two nations. So it's a balance to it's a balance two to two. 263 00:34:02,860 --> 00:34:18,220 We have to find to be citizens. And this is what at this time, I felt like one dictator was replaced by 11 million of dictators. 264 00:34:18,220 --> 00:34:22,350 It's a fight. It's a way of saying. Thank you very much. 265 00:34:22,350 --> 00:34:26,370 That's a very interesting way of looking at it. I like that a lot. 266 00:34:26,370 --> 00:34:34,040 Our next question is looking at the disconnect really between the politics of protest and formal politics. 267 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:41,860 And it comes from Miriam La wheaty. Miriam basically is saying that the youth are protesting it's disappointment, but at the same time, 268 00:34:41,860 --> 00:34:49,020 they're not participating in elections, resulting in what she calls the pathetic results that we all suffer. 269 00:34:49,020 --> 00:34:57,670 Do you have any explanations for why that's the case? Maybe perhaps even say something about how that can be overcome, if at all possible. 270 00:34:57,670 --> 00:35:02,950 Even one of you will be welcome to try that. Yeah. It's it's very pertinent. 271 00:35:02,950 --> 00:35:05,230 It's very an important issue. 272 00:35:05,230 --> 00:35:19,710 It's true that the UK people don't participate due to the election, but express their anger through demonstration is to now. 273 00:35:19,710 --> 00:35:28,480 They. They did not participate. But we don't know in the future if they could participate next election. 274 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:35,050 We don't know exactly where is the direction of the people. 275 00:35:35,050 --> 00:35:39,190 Thank you very much. Now, the next the next question actually comes from two people. 276 00:35:39,190 --> 00:35:43,060 We have a joint question from two good friends of the Middle East. 277 00:35:43,060 --> 00:35:48,160 Centella is that Tommy, Jack and Bobby Parks? And they ask. 278 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:55,600 When we think of a protest, the thousands of protests and social movements annually, especially after 2018, 279 00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:00,940 in addition to such incredible experiences as Jemena, which you you were referring to Mohammed earlier. 280 00:36:00,940 --> 00:36:06,040 Do you think that we can use the contentious experiences in Tunisia to think beyond 281 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:13,000 the economic determinism that so many academics attached to the study of protests? 282 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:18,460 In other in other words, what kind of politics is behind these diverse and many movements? 283 00:36:18,460 --> 00:36:23,950 And they say, thank you for asking and thank you for your question and really about this economic determinism. 284 00:36:23,950 --> 00:36:28,370 Can we move beyond that? Absolutely. 285 00:36:28,370 --> 00:36:35,770 Absolutely. The case of him and other demonstrations show us. 286 00:36:35,770 --> 00:36:45,490 That we need to reflect that beyond the determining the economic determinist, because these movements are linked with collective identity, 287 00:36:45,490 --> 00:36:53,740 not with only the economic level as people think of or as the intellectual being. 288 00:36:53,740 --> 00:37:02,410 Back to the main issue is the collective identity of communities, communities of young people, community, no, 289 00:37:02,410 --> 00:37:17,080 community of incommode and so on, we are now experiencing new ways of thinking and new ways of protesting, I think. 290 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,640 Thank you. Next question comes from Robin Kiely. 291 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,660 Thank you very much for joining us. Robin, I hope Robin won't mind me saying that. 292 00:37:25,660 --> 00:37:31,510 Robin is a former British ambassador to Tunisia. And Robin's question is about the role of NGO. 293 00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:37,930 And he asks, how do you see the role of NGOs developing, given that the sector was quite developed, 294 00:37:37,930 --> 00:37:48,370 albeit firmly controlled by the pouvoir before the revolution, a way of uninvolved and dynamiting society or a parallel government with other agendas? 295 00:37:48,370 --> 00:37:55,270 So the role of NGOs perhaps stops. Heller may be able to say something about this as well as Mohammed. 296 00:37:55,270 --> 00:38:05,640 About the role of NGOs. Yeah. OK. Yes, actually, it depends of NGOs, you know, for example, and the field of human rights NGO. 297 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:22,800 So it was we're able to to play a major role in developing tools to to improve human rights in Indonesia. 298 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:34,750 It depends. Actually, even even if I can, I can think of other end to use NGOs in income, economic fears or et cetera. 299 00:38:34,750 --> 00:38:43,690 It improves it. It helps actually to to to find some tools so to improve their skills. 300 00:38:43,690 --> 00:38:48,460 It hasn't replaced the role of governments. 301 00:38:48,460 --> 00:38:56,830 I think it's a cooperation between government and NGO, but also between NGO and civil society. 302 00:38:56,830 --> 00:39:03,340 And I can't imagine a process without this cooperation. 303 00:39:03,340 --> 00:39:10,070 How much did you want to add anything? Not. Just an idea. 304 00:39:10,070 --> 00:39:24,440 We could say that we have to kind two kinds of civil society in Tunisia and then brought down to a formal civil society and an informal civil society. 305 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:36,650 The former civil society. Attracted by an NGO has played a major role during the first year. 306 00:39:36,650 --> 00:39:47,130 Position. Now we are facing a new. Informal civil society, which is very different from the other. 307 00:39:47,130 --> 00:39:54,630 Let's say that the first two became bourgeois bourgeoisie to be a society. 308 00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:58,410 I think it's very important to observe and to analyse now. 309 00:39:58,410 --> 00:40:10,110 And the demonstration urban in urban field and also in income over and the JEMINA outlook are linked to an informal civil society, 310 00:40:10,110 --> 00:40:19,080 not formal civil society, except the except the role of you to do. 311 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:24,650 Which is the complex. Thank you very much. 312 00:40:24,650 --> 00:40:38,070 A question for Heller this time, and it's a question that I very heavy on you as well from Dr. Caromed side, who is an anthropologist, and they ask. 313 00:40:38,070 --> 00:40:46,310 I'm so curious about hostility towards the art projects in which your team replaced pictures of Bernadi with those of ordinary citizens. 314 00:40:46,310 --> 00:40:52,580 What do you think this reveals about public media and the value of appearance in public space? 315 00:40:52,580 --> 00:40:56,570 Advertisements are so common on Main Streets and metro stations in Tunis. 316 00:40:56,570 --> 00:41:04,700 Do you think it was the more private placement of the portraits or something about their aesthetic styling that triggered the opposition? 317 00:41:04,700 --> 00:41:09,920 Very well. Very interesting question. 318 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,070 Thank you for asking, actually. 319 00:41:14,070 --> 00:41:18,660 Well, what triggered those reaction? 320 00:41:18,660 --> 00:41:29,750 We we couldn't say at this time because we arrived as an artist like Superman's, you know. 321 00:41:29,750 --> 00:41:42,890 Yeah. We are replacing finally Bernardes portraits by a by a thousand self Tunisian of portraits of Tunisian unknown Tunisian people. 322 00:41:42,890 --> 00:41:55,850 And on the contrary, people have not received this as a knowledge, but as an intrusion in their life, in their public space. 323 00:41:55,850 --> 00:42:00,140 And and it was a lesson at the end. 324 00:42:00,140 --> 00:42:03,260 It was, for me, a lesson of humility, you know, 325 00:42:03,260 --> 00:42:19,040 because because that that teaches me that we have to deal with the public space as the people industry have to deal with artists. 326 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:29,670 And before that, they were like a gap between artists and and people in the street. 327 00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:34,740 Thank you very much. Unfolding sort of on on that's about the expression. 328 00:42:34,740 --> 00:42:38,820 Another question for you, Hala, is from an anonymous pen. 329 00:42:38,820 --> 00:42:45,030 That's perfectly fine in terms of you can leave your name or not and says you 330 00:42:45,030 --> 00:42:49,440 said that freedom of speech has been the main change since the revolution. 331 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:56,490 That seems to have been, however, a recent increase in government crackdowns on bloggers and online commentators. 332 00:42:56,490 --> 00:43:00,540 Is this something you are concerned about? Yes, of course. 333 00:43:00,540 --> 00:43:13,290 We are all concerned here in Turkey and yet in Tunisia about. About violation of our rights to to speak freely online or to media, etc. 334 00:43:13,290 --> 00:43:19,110 And, you know, in French, we have I don't know how to translate make a choice. 335 00:43:19,110 --> 00:43:24,300 Would it translate, as I say, the natural, I hope young and. 336 00:43:24,300 --> 00:43:38,400 These are like reflex, you know, of the old regimes that they are not familiar yet with, with the freedom of speech. 337 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,550 So there is, of course, crackdowns. 338 00:43:41,550 --> 00:43:54,870 But on the other hand, when it happened, people denounce this is the censorship and and through media network, etc., we all denounce. 339 00:43:54,870 --> 00:44:06,920 They said that the censorship and Q question now from a Tunisian colleague here at Oxford and a good friend and colleague at the centre, 340 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:16,260 Mohamed Salah Omari and Mohammed Salah welcomes you and thanked you for your succinct and suggestive interventions very much. 341 00:44:16,260 --> 00:44:18,210 Mohamed Satis question is, 342 00:44:18,210 --> 00:44:29,870 both of you describe deep change at the level of practises that citizenship is there are not social back to sustain this change or is it temporary? 343 00:44:29,870 --> 00:44:34,020 So that's the both of you who would like to try. But perhaps, Mohammed, would you like to try? 344 00:44:34,020 --> 00:44:41,090 That's a very good question. But then really, I have no answer for this question. 345 00:44:41,090 --> 00:44:50,000 It's not easy. We don't know exactly if it's in death or itself superficial. 346 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,040 We don't know. We have doubt. 347 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,170 It's nothing that we have no one. We have no Savi's session. 348 00:44:58,170 --> 00:45:06,910 So soon as you consider what to say, to know exactly the values of people and how they deal with power. 349 00:45:06,910 --> 00:45:14,110 If they have the same attitude, the same at a presentation of the power on. 350 00:45:14,110 --> 00:45:20,170 If this representation is changing now, we don't know exact. 351 00:45:20,170 --> 00:45:24,820 But it's a very interesting question from social science point of view. 352 00:45:24,820 --> 00:45:31,490 Of course, you want to say something on that panel. And that's it. 353 00:45:31,490 --> 00:45:34,830 I guess I said everything right. OK. 354 00:45:34,830 --> 00:45:39,430 Thank you. I know somebody who would like to go back to one of the questions. 355 00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:44,490 This is from Barney Porter. We know. Well, welcome, Barney. Sure. Very nice of you to join us. 356 00:45:44,490 --> 00:45:52,900 And just as I wondered where we could go back to the question of why young people are not participating in here. 357 00:45:52,900 --> 00:45:59,070 Helus thoughts because of our experiences with working with young people in the Madina. 358 00:45:59,070 --> 00:46:03,470 Your particular perspective from your experiences there? Yeah. 359 00:46:03,470 --> 00:46:11,490 Hi, Venetia. Glad you're here. So, yes, I don't know where they are not participating, 360 00:46:11,490 --> 00:46:21,690 but maybe if I go back and I can tell you worse about this experience to two or three, four, maybe four, 361 00:46:21,690 --> 00:46:33,840 two or three or four years ago, I had a residency in the heart of the Trueness Madina of trains with five young people, 362 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:38,250 and I followed them in their daily life. 363 00:46:38,250 --> 00:46:50,920 Young people who were very representative of the youth in Tunisia, like all of them, were dreaming about a legal migration, about leaving the country. 364 00:46:50,920 --> 00:47:08,160 They're disappointed by and bye bye politics in Tunisia very improved also by by them social and economic situation in in Tunisia. 365 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:16,200 And it was very interesting to work with them and to learn more about them because 366 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:26,040 because I felt like there's a really gap between youth in Tunisia and our politician. 367 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:37,050 And even as an Hamied said and even a part of the civil society in in Tunisia, 368 00:47:37,050 --> 00:47:44,730 you know, they and even then, you know, they say that they are completely, 369 00:47:44,730 --> 00:48:00,870 completely they they feel alone, you know, in front of the regime, in front of Shwetha, in front of all of the other other people in Tunis. 370 00:48:00,870 --> 00:48:08,460 So, yes, this was a very interesting and interesting experience I had. 371 00:48:08,460 --> 00:48:20,880 And I wish that people could talk more with with the youth continues and understand that expectation by people. 372 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:30,440 I mean politicians. Thank you. Moving back to the subject of the social movements, particularly that Mohammed crew was talking about. 373 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,340 We have a question coming in Spain from Miguel that on Monday. 374 00:48:34,340 --> 00:48:37,440 Very good to see you, Miguel. Thank you for joining us. 375 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:46,160 And Miguel asks, could you develop that the role of the UDP team and its relationship would be social movements? 376 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:52,760 I think you did mentioned in passing that hasn't been a strong, strong link, but perhaps you you could say a little bit more about that. 377 00:48:52,760 --> 00:49:06,290 Thank you. The role of Russia today is very labour union is very important, is crucial in Tunisia, in the history of Tunisia and the Tunisian history. 378 00:49:06,290 --> 00:49:18,350 And if we observe the attitude of Usui today towards the social movements, they don't produce these social liberty. 379 00:49:18,350 --> 00:49:27,020 They uncaught age, the social movement when they feel it's a legitimate demand of people. 380 00:49:27,020 --> 00:49:36,010 And the role is very complex of Usui, the delusion that is the main organisation, the main NGO in civil society. 381 00:49:36,010 --> 00:49:42,460 And the morale of Egypt today is between state and civil society. 382 00:49:42,460 --> 00:49:55,850 It's that at the same time, an official organisation and also an organisation which I'll quote as informal civil society. 383 00:49:55,850 --> 00:50:01,050 And it's very interesting to study. Thank you. Thank you very much. 384 00:50:01,050 --> 00:50:08,370 Next question is from a Tunisian student who is actually an that man in the men's room. 385 00:50:08,370 --> 00:50:15,360 And a man asks. Thank you for your contribution. 386 00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:26,140 And asks Foliate. Is the following the one that has been praised, the Tunisian exceptionalism of Tunisia being an Arab anomaly, 387 00:50:26,140 --> 00:50:33,750 as described in the title of a book, Someone by Satwant al-Masri, I know not everybody agrees with his perspective on things. 388 00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:39,160 Am I right to think, she asks, that there is an inherent paradox between Tunisia being an exception? 389 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:45,520 On one hand, yet doomed to a vicious circle of socio economic and political issues. 390 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:54,780 And she says, I'm curious to know your thoughts on when we can stop talking about the start at the end of a difficult situation back. 391 00:50:54,780 --> 00:50:59,420 Even one of you, I think it's OPAP, Mohammed, you can start with that again. 392 00:50:59,420 --> 00:51:05,610 The Tunisian exception is the MIF produced by media and some intellectuals. 393 00:51:05,610 --> 00:51:12,870 And now is finished. It's over. Now, it's the beginning of the. 394 00:51:12,870 --> 00:51:18,960 This all the bullet. Well, politics in Tunisia and the economic and the global. 395 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:25,150 The global levels. Thank you for question coming in from Edward Oakden. 396 00:51:25,150 --> 00:51:30,250 Thanks. So presenters and Edward asks in so far as it is possible to generalise. 397 00:51:30,250 --> 00:51:39,070 To what extent do you think that young people have a common vision of where they want the country to be in 10 years time? 398 00:51:39,070 --> 00:51:48,120 And Edwards is the present British ambassador ambassador in Tunisia and says hello to everybody. 399 00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:53,130 So basically, is there a common vision, you think? Is it possible to have a common vision? 400 00:51:53,130 --> 00:52:03,120 I think that could go to both of you. I think it's hard to talk about common vision, you know, because everyone has its own vision for now. 401 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:14,450 And the challenge is to have this common vision to run the country and to set up the priorities, you know, so. 402 00:52:14,450 --> 00:52:17,580 So, yes, as Mohammed said, 403 00:52:17,580 --> 00:52:25,350 this is the beginning of the difficulties and that we cannot resolve these difficulties we have without having a common vision. 404 00:52:25,350 --> 00:52:31,510 And this is the most difficult thing to to have for the moment. 405 00:52:31,510 --> 00:52:38,360 I don't know, Mohammed, what do you think of you know? And another aspect to it is very important. 406 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:45,800 Now is the lack of leadership in Tunisia. This is a big issue. 407 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:54,420 In Indonesia today. Do you think, though, I one often wonder if I may my chip and myself. 408 00:52:54,420 --> 00:52:59,100 Do you think the problem in Tunisia was it had too much leadership in the past on the bogy burned banali? 409 00:52:59,100 --> 00:53:09,210 Is that part of the problem? If we if we compare the history of Tunisia with other Arab countries, there was no much leadership. 410 00:53:09,210 --> 00:53:12,870 There is a there was a lack of leadership after Bourguiba. 411 00:53:12,870 --> 00:53:20,060 We've been I mean, there is nobody that she and also today we have noted that she I mean, nationally. 412 00:53:20,060 --> 00:53:23,970 Did she. Nationally that she'd be doing. 413 00:53:23,970 --> 00:53:32,090 There is no president who. Is able to express, obviously, leadership. 414 00:53:32,090 --> 00:53:37,980 In the country today. Actually, it's started. 415 00:53:37,980 --> 00:53:47,680 And this is a difference between between leadership and dictatorship during but with Banani and also Bourguiba, 416 00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:55,450 where until like a dictatorship or one one person decides for for all. 417 00:53:55,450 --> 00:53:59,050 And this is not leadership, you know. 418 00:53:59,050 --> 00:54:07,330 This is not the leadership we want for our country. Now, after after after the revolution. 419 00:54:07,330 --> 00:54:14,950 And of course, there's a lack. Yes. There's a lack of leadership and there is no common vision. 420 00:54:14,950 --> 00:54:29,530 But maybe if if politicians meet together and set up priorities, maybe at this time we could we could go forward with a country. 421 00:54:29,530 --> 00:54:34,200 Thank you very much. We have time. I think just one more question. Unfortunately, I apologise to those who weren't. 422 00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:38,970 I brought that question. This question comes from Paul Utzon's towards Mohammed. 423 00:54:38,970 --> 00:54:45,980 And he again wants to come back on something that you say, describing Jemina as maybe the only success of the revolution. 424 00:54:45,980 --> 00:54:49,450 Would you say something a little bit more about that? 425 00:54:49,450 --> 00:54:58,900 Yeah, no, it's the only success that we are not sure if there will be an agreement between the government and Egypt. 426 00:54:58,900 --> 00:55:07,540 Look, the government has no time for. No time for a new Sisi in the country. 427 00:55:07,540 --> 00:55:13,240 So we don't know what the future what will be the future of Egypt. 428 00:55:13,240 --> 00:55:14,110 Thank you very much. 429 00:55:14,110 --> 00:55:22,510 So we're still waiting for the future, which seems like maybe a appropriate note to end things on, but thank you very much to both of you. 430 00:55:22,510 --> 00:55:27,460 I'll come back. Back to Charles and then Charles can head back to me. 431 00:55:27,460 --> 00:55:35,140 Charles. Well, thank you, Michael. Thank you, really, I just want to thank both of you very much, as well as all those who put questions to you. 432 00:55:35,140 --> 00:55:45,910 But really for giving us such a wonderful series of insights into the dilemmas facing Tunisians, Tunisian citizens and indeed Tunisian leadership. 433 00:55:45,910 --> 00:55:53,710 And you can see why we are justified in calling this unfinished revolutions, because clearly there are like in all revolutions, 434 00:55:53,710 --> 00:55:57,860 there are many processes at work and some people think they've achieved a success. 435 00:55:57,860 --> 00:56:02,530 Other people clearly say there's too much to be done yet to claim success. 436 00:56:02,530 --> 00:56:11,480 But I think you both managed to show an indifferent but interestingly complementary ways the successes. 437 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:18,770 But also the challenges faced by many in Tunisia on all sorts of levels. 438 00:56:18,770 --> 00:56:27,320 And the hope is that some of the recognition of those challenges will come together and not be seen as playing for a zero sum game. 439 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:33,860 In Tunisia itself. But that's part of the challenge of citizenship itself, which I think you both illuminated. 440 00:56:33,860 --> 00:56:39,890 So, Hala. Mohammed, thank you so much indeed for for your contributions this evening. 441 00:56:39,890 --> 00:56:45,470 Really outstanding. And we look forward to the exhibition at the British Museum, Hala. 442 00:56:45,470 --> 00:56:49,690 And we look forward to the appearance of Jimena. 443 00:56:49,690 --> 00:56:53,510 I see. Is also looking forward to that very much indeed. 444 00:56:53,510 --> 00:56:56,780 And I also want to thank Michael and the Middle East centre. 445 00:56:56,780 --> 00:57:03,830 That's an honour and it's for hosting this evening and also for the unseen person who has made all this possible, 446 00:57:03,830 --> 00:57:11,420 Stacy Chirchir, who really we want to thank for having set the thing up so brilliantly and making it all work so smoothly. 447 00:57:11,420 --> 00:57:17,950 Michael, thank you very much. Thank you very much, Sheldon. Thank you, Stacey Stacy, for running and setting all of this up. 448 00:57:17,950 --> 00:57:23,360 And thank you very much, Charles and the producers, Tunisian society, for making this possible. 449 00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,660 It's been wonderful work in partnership and it's a great organisation. 450 00:57:26,660 --> 00:57:33,900 I remember when when joint organisations between Britain and Tunisia were rather different arrangements to go back more than 10 years. 451 00:57:33,900 --> 00:57:38,810 And it's wonderful to have that cooperation. And Charles and the other members have been wonderful with that. 452 00:57:38,810 --> 00:57:44,870 Thank you, Charles. And thank you again, Mohamed and Helen. Thank you for coming and spending time and coming in from Tunisia. 453 00:57:44,870 --> 00:57:49,700 And we wish you well. And thank you very much. The session that ends this week. 454 00:57:49,700 --> 00:57:54,560 And apologies again for those of you ask questions when they put them. Please do join us next week. 455 00:57:54,560 --> 00:58:01,520 The seventh in the series. When we've been doing a retrospective on the role of social media 10 years on from the Arab uprisings. 456 00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:06,500 But that's a very good evening to you. Have a wonderful weekend. Good to see you. 457 00:58:06,500 --> 00:58:18,867 Thank you very much.