1 00:00:07,950 --> 00:00:12,330 Welcome to Middle East Centre Book Talk. The Oxford podcast on new books about the Middle East. 2 00:00:12,330 --> 00:00:17,760 These are some of the books written by members of our community or the books our community are talking about. 3 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:23,160 My name is a Summer Azami and I teach contemporary Islamic studies. My guest today is David Warren. 4 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:31,470 David completed his APHC at the University of Manchester before spending stints as a researcher at Harvard, Brandeis and the University of Edinburgh. 5 00:00:31,470 --> 00:00:38,010 He's currently a post-doctoral research fellow, a research associate at Washington University in St. Louis, 6 00:00:38,010 --> 00:00:43,890 a scholar of contemporary Alan David's research analyses the politics and discourse of the Muslim scholarly elite Allama, 7 00:00:43,890 --> 00:00:47,370 with a particular focus on the Arab Spring and its aftermath. 8 00:00:47,370 --> 00:00:52,820 Besides many journal articles, David is the author of the recently released monograph Rivals in the Gulf, 9 00:00:52,820 --> 00:01:01,590 USFL, Columbia and A Pool of India and the Qatar UAE could contest over the Arab Spring and the Gulf crisis. 10 00:01:01,590 --> 00:01:06,840 Very long title MASC published by Routledge this January. 11 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:13,300 This fascinating book will be the subject of today's discussion. And with that, I'd like to welcome you to book talk, David. 12 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:15,750 Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here with you. 13 00:01:15,750 --> 00:01:21,960 It's wonderful to catch up again across sort of coming from beaming from across the pond, as it were. 14 00:01:21,960 --> 00:01:26,880 Absolutely. So let's stop by something more, general, about your book. 15 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,900 Tell us about how you went about writing your book. When did you start? 16 00:01:30,900 --> 00:01:37,880 What sort of sources you used and where the travels may have taken you with this book? 17 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:47,660 Thank you so much. So just in general, I think the actual writing of the book started not so long ago in September 2019, 18 00:01:47,660 --> 00:01:51,980 although the idea had been germinating for a long time, 19 00:01:51,980 --> 00:02:01,520 I think since the Arab Spring, there's been this revitalisation of interest in studying the art of maths, 20 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,870 particularly examining the role in countries such as Egypt and Syria. 21 00:02:05,870 --> 00:02:14,420 And so what I want to do in this book was bring that new emphasis into conversation with these new studies of the Gulf region, 22 00:02:14,420 --> 00:02:22,340 particularly particularly focussing all on Qatar and the UAE. So in terms of the sources and things like that, new sources, 23 00:02:22,340 --> 00:02:28,010 I think one of the things about studying very recent events like the Arab Spring, its aftermath, 24 00:02:28,010 --> 00:02:37,730 is that the sources that you're reading were often countering new kinds of sources, using YouTube videos, online lectures and things like that. 25 00:02:37,730 --> 00:02:45,500 So I focussed primarily on public statements these early that have made interviews, Al Jazeera, things like that. 26 00:02:45,500 --> 00:02:53,360 Just thinking about more broadly about other interesting sources I encountered they were planning to or inspecting was, 27 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,730 for example, in the first chapter of the book, 28 00:02:55,730 --> 00:03:03,740 I talk a little bit about the history of the aftermath in Qatar to just gauge how called always influence Paris 1961 when he arrived, 29 00:03:03,740 --> 00:03:11,930 and that involved reading some very old Erlenmeyer biographies of scholars in the Arabian Peninsula early 20th century, 30 00:03:11,930 --> 00:03:20,260 these sort of life stories of scholars circulating around time, which I wasn't read, anticipating up looking at when I first started the project. 31 00:03:20,260 --> 00:03:24,140 So on the other side was talking about Bombay and Mauritania for a second. 32 00:03:24,140 --> 00:03:35,150 Similarly, when looking at his relationship with the UAE and the Mafia family, I also found myself reading sources I wasn't expecting to, 33 00:03:35,150 --> 00:03:45,260 looking at old French studies of Emirati aid policies towards mortality in 1970s in a way that I can stop writing this book, 34 00:03:45,260 --> 00:03:51,830 I wasn't expecting to be taken. And just lastly, the fieldwork made contact with Dubie. 35 00:03:51,830 --> 00:03:57,740 I just thinking about how the question the book is how to think about these two cities. 36 00:03:57,740 --> 00:04:04,270 What ways we think about these places alongside centres, just Cairo, Madina on Damascus. 37 00:04:04,270 --> 00:04:12,770 And is there a way of thinking about the site that you talk about, the sort of the I think you used the ten long geography's drawing on to integrate? 38 00:04:12,770 --> 00:04:22,730 Well, and thinking about these as make making nodes in the international sort of network of Islamic learning, Islamic knowledge, Islamic culture. 39 00:04:22,730 --> 00:04:28,880 And I think that that's actually probably what these centres are aspiring to become. 40 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,770 That I guess it's going to be a question for us to assess how successful they are, 41 00:04:33,770 --> 00:04:40,070 as you, in a sense, take a stab at it within this country sort of discourse. 42 00:04:40,070 --> 00:04:46,730 Thank you very much. I mean, and of course, you also travelled extensively in that region as well as feel safe. 43 00:04:46,730 --> 00:04:49,600 You're very well travelled over the past decade or so. 44 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:55,380 You know, I think a lot of that was because your case, of course, focuses a lot on useful following. 45 00:04:55,380 --> 00:05:00,250 So a lot of that was in that also in Abu Dhabi. He spent a lot of time. 46 00:05:00,250 --> 00:05:09,530 So fascinating to get some of that background. I had I mean, there are always so many angles to take when looking at a book like this. 47 00:05:09,530 --> 00:05:17,960 And this is going to affect my own sort of biases. And inevitably but I'm very interested in this sort of dialogue, in a sense, 48 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:26,030 a dialogue or a comparison that you undertake between sort of the two scholars who are on the cover of this book I use for following. 49 00:05:26,030 --> 00:05:30,230 And I've been there. And I'm just curious, 50 00:05:30,230 --> 00:05:36,320 you speak of the way in which the two scholars you are concerned with have shaped you kind of used the 51 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:41,230 term shaped the understanding of Islam with the ruling families of Doha and that they respectively. 52 00:05:41,230 --> 00:05:46,520 And why do you say this? And if you can perhaps elaborate. Yes, thank you. 53 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:52,640 I use the words shaped when I use that word. I'm thinking about the state of the field and the study of the irlam. 54 00:05:52,640 --> 00:06:02,990 That understates. We often think about these two polls, either the Erlend that are being co-opted by the state apparatus or they're resisting. 55 00:06:02,990 --> 00:06:10,430 Right. And this particular place, just trying to think a bit more nuance about what is the actual vote. 56 00:06:10,430 --> 00:06:15,110 All the irlam that particularly in Qatar on the UAE in this case. 57 00:06:15,110 --> 00:06:22,790 And so it is not as up as if Qatar, we open bay, are actually advising and debating policy, then what is their influence? 58 00:06:22,790 --> 00:06:26,710 Right. And so, as I say in the book. Think about Qatar. 59 00:06:26,710 --> 00:06:32,960 We for a second whose influence and time in Qatar is much longer, stretching back to 61. 60 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:37,510 The main point I'm making is that one key element of his larger project. 61 00:06:37,510 --> 00:06:48,220 As I see it, is the idea of making its stomach law a popular discourse, making it relevant and meaningful in the lives of everyday believers. 62 00:06:48,220 --> 00:06:51,700 The lawful under pay, which is in a stop being a major example of that. 63 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:56,230 And the point as it pertains to cattle is the idea that if Islamic law is relevant 64 00:06:56,230 --> 00:07:03,020 and meaningful in every aspect to the believers life and clean politics, then the idea of political Islam, the Brotherhood, 65 00:07:03,020 --> 00:07:09,420 things like that is less threatening intrinsically in the mind and in the general sense of the Cosby family policy. 66 00:07:09,420 --> 00:07:16,970 Right. The contrast, of course, with India. I talk about shaking because I feel that or it might not. 67 00:07:16,970 --> 00:07:20,410 Is this the key point I drew out in this book? 68 00:07:20,410 --> 00:07:28,880 It's a trip of chaos, right? Chaos similar justifies and it's been based vision or his view or his assessments of the region. 69 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:35,170 But the chaos that is discourse is a key cause or a prime cause of conflict and turmoil. 70 00:07:35,170 --> 00:07:43,150 I think perhaps shapes that trope of chaos, then becomes taken up and repeated by Emirati members of the royal family, 71 00:07:43,150 --> 00:07:47,410 Emirati diplomats, as a justification for that, for those policies. 72 00:07:47,410 --> 00:07:52,660 Even if Bombay himself is not inferencing Emirati policy towards, say, Yemen, for example. 73 00:07:52,660 --> 00:08:02,520 Right. Right. I mean, one of the things that I found interesting and perhaps, you know, I would want to push back against slightly is that. 74 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:09,590 In many respects, in the modern period that we're residing in, the states really have overwhelmingly the upper hand in this. 75 00:08:09,590 --> 00:08:17,460 And you make this very clear in, for example, the case of Bali, where you point out in a sense there's a kind of threat of or you say in general, 76 00:08:17,460 --> 00:08:25,410 there's this threat of deportation that hangs over all non-resident sort of scholars, some invaders from potentia. 77 00:08:25,410 --> 00:08:33,890 He resides and get there. And he has he's an official for the Upper Darby State or the UAE state in which I put out the forms. 78 00:08:33,890 --> 00:08:38,810 Then this powerful emirate is what probably is domiciled in Qatar. 79 00:08:38,810 --> 00:08:47,130 But he's Egyptian originally. And in a sense, you know, the states can discipline their scholars, but not vice versa. 80 00:08:47,130 --> 00:08:57,390 Right. And so that's why, in a sense, I think, you know, that aspect is kind of a signal throughout your work. 81 00:08:57,390 --> 00:09:06,540 But I kind of felt that describing them as shaping the understanding of Islam might be putting a stronger emphasis summit than they actually can. 82 00:09:06,540 --> 00:09:11,760 Although in the case of Bali, I do agree that given the length of time he spent there, 83 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:18,690 certainly with the current and the his father and grandfather, that seems to have been sort of a fairly robust relationship. 84 00:09:18,690 --> 00:09:23,430 And now he's, in a sense, far too old to really do very much, probably. 85 00:09:23,430 --> 00:09:33,300 And I think you've also signalled how the code and there is seems a lot less invested in the sort of projects that his father was invested in, 86 00:09:33,300 --> 00:09:41,790 for example, which were in many respects quite radical. So I think this is a really important points. 87 00:09:41,790 --> 00:09:47,370 And I definitely agree the earldom that are innately vulnerable in the modern day. 88 00:09:47,370 --> 00:09:51,480 And I guess it's what brings back the question of why are is that. 89 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,720 Why does why would the court read and write? 90 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,060 We'll finally have an interest in them. If they don't matter. Right. 91 00:09:58,060 --> 00:10:01,900 Right. So, again, thinking about creatively awardee through officer. 92 00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:05,190 If been they alcalde I began to more. Right. 93 00:10:05,190 --> 00:10:08,940 Right. If they are no longer useful then what is going on here? 94 00:10:08,940 --> 00:10:13,220 So that's kind of why I want to introduce the concept of state branding. 95 00:10:13,220 --> 00:10:17,520 Right. And bringing it in forms of international relations of the Gulf to think about. 96 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:27,390 Well, they have a use the importance not so much, again, influencing policy or changing policy, but how these states are branded on the global stage, 97 00:10:27,390 --> 00:10:35,100 because, again, we almost forget that got on the UAE and also Kuwait, Bahrain are innately vulnerable states. 98 00:10:35,100 --> 00:10:43,680 All of those states have either been occupied, territory claimed or being threatened by their much larger neighbours in the recent few decades. 99 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:48,960 And so the reason I used state branding and talk about Colombo and Bombay is road 100 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:57,660 and that's right is to highlight that they have a role for engendering for Qatar, 101 00:10:57,660 --> 00:11:01,660 the UAE in Gendry outside powers interest in preserving their security. 102 00:11:01,660 --> 00:11:10,920 So for Greenbay branding the UAE his role in branding the UAE as a scent of desirable, it's like before the eyes of the U.S., right. 103 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:17,450 That, in turn, ensures continued American interest in Emirati security, which is where his influence is useful, right. 104 00:11:17,450 --> 00:11:22,290 Where he does add value, as it were, to the UAE brand. And I think, you know, 105 00:11:22,290 --> 00:11:33,090 that's a very important point that in the sense that these people are extremely valuable assets in soft power projection of seven kinds. 106 00:11:33,090 --> 00:11:43,970 Although I think and we can come back to this perhaps later on in the discussion that the way in which the countries have historically deployed, 107 00:11:43,970 --> 00:11:48,600 you could argue the kind of only as a figure in the media landscape. 108 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:49,290 And of course, 109 00:11:49,290 --> 00:11:56,920 the media landscape encompasses the world in a sense through Al-Jazeera versus the way in which Abu Dhabi has done the same with the NBA. 110 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,420 You qualitatively very significantly different, in my view, 111 00:12:00,420 --> 00:12:05,610 in a way that I think is not sort of highlighted quite as much, but we can potentially discuss later on. 112 00:12:05,610 --> 00:12:08,870 That's right. And I had a couple of other questions. 113 00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:17,820 We know these podcasts are very short, so key to as much as we can in the 25 minutes or so that we have. 114 00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:22,240 I wanted to ask one question. And then after that one been. 115 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:28,980 So you discussed certain problems, although he has failed to work through in his conception of democracy that 116 00:12:28,980 --> 00:12:34,050 leave it wanting as a central principle or a principle of sexual organisation. 117 00:12:34,050 --> 00:12:39,680 Could you outline these in brief and then hopefully we can discuss them briefly as well? 118 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:46,830 Thank you. I think the first thing is, you know, there's always critiques or tensions that any social fair or any political theory. 119 00:12:46,830 --> 00:12:50,470 So I'd always very, very far from unique in that regard. 120 00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:56,680 And I think I use the phrase in the book as imprecise, but sincerely Democratic come in his vision of democracy. 121 00:12:56,680 --> 00:13:01,940 I'm absolutely a Democrat and believes in democracy as a political theory. 122 00:13:01,940 --> 00:13:07,460 I approached, I felt the need to include critiques of Kado, its vision of democracy, 123 00:13:07,460 --> 00:13:12,710 because I thought there were two instances in particular that made that helpful to think with. 124 00:13:12,710 --> 00:13:20,180 One of which call it always a failure. That's what led to not support the uprising in Bahrain and talk about it as a sectarian 125 00:13:20,180 --> 00:13:25,970 uprising in Iran and plotting and also to think about the initial his initial response, 126 00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:31,080 the opposition to President Morsi in early 2013, of course. 127 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:38,210 So dismissing this as a manufactured article, we do now know that he was least partly right in that statements. 128 00:13:38,210 --> 00:13:43,010 But also I think it's important to think about his initial response and to the critics. 129 00:13:43,010 --> 00:13:51,020 I included were drawing on it. Abreau Fuddle, which was the idea that when called, I think about democracy. 130 00:13:51,020 --> 00:13:55,910 He did not fully account for the nature of the modern state. 131 00:13:55,910 --> 00:14:02,690 And the qualitative difference between a modern status of a premodern doesn't work and didn't 132 00:14:02,690 --> 00:14:08,300 fully account for the need to protect the individual from the power of the modern state. 133 00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:12,830 The other critique of FUDDLE included, I thought was useful. 134 00:14:12,830 --> 00:14:17,150 It's his idea that. There are times and call, 135 00:14:17,150 --> 00:14:26,060 though he describes the Moxey as ineffective in giving effect to the will of the majority and Kardos vision that the citizen, 136 00:14:26,060 --> 00:14:33,620 the Muslim citizen, is innately desired as the faithful is innately desirous of some kind of Islamic state. 137 00:14:33,620 --> 00:14:42,010 And if you have your favourite system as that's their true desire, then that's a problematic when the other desires are being voiced. 138 00:14:42,010 --> 00:14:51,860 Right? Right. So, I mean, this is really something which I, I didn't spend as much time as I should in you know, 139 00:14:51,860 --> 00:14:56,060 I'm, of course, working on a similar project to what you've just published. 140 00:14:56,060 --> 00:15:02,480 And hopefully, if people forgive the South planks, speak out, hopefully have a book coming out in the summer on this thing as well. 141 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:12,590 I'm very excited to read it. Yes. Thank you. And with respect to the sort of notion of democracy, you're quite right. 142 00:15:12,590 --> 00:15:17,880 I think in describing him as in a sense, a committed Democrat of sorts. 143 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:25,430 And I'm very interested to sort of engage high level fellows critique in future in a sense. 144 00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:31,560 My main concern with that critique is that it seems to. 145 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:38,070 Foreground a certain conception of democracy, which is, you know, the liberal democracy, 146 00:15:38,070 --> 00:15:42,060 so liberal liberalism and democracy, of course, they start off as distinct ideas. 147 00:15:42,060 --> 00:15:47,070 They come from slightly different sort of backgrounds and they have merged. 148 00:15:47,070 --> 00:15:54,600 By the end of the 20th century, but beginning of the 21st, as you know, inescapable concomitant of each other. 149 00:15:54,600 --> 00:16:01,140 And I think what liberal democracy does is place liberal values as a limit to democracy. 150 00:16:01,140 --> 00:16:07,800 And for Carr, though, he is developing Islamic democracy, which is placing Islamic values as a limit to democracy. 151 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:13,440 And I think that that needs to be. And I hope to engage this at some point in the future. 152 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:24,210 But I think that that aspect of it is not sort of engaged sufficiently in befuddles critique, as I've read it so far. 153 00:16:24,210 --> 00:16:28,760 But this is something which, you know, hour into the oxygen we breathe is liberal, so to speak. 154 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:38,710 And in the Western discussion context. And so, yeah, we're going to have to be very self reflexive to be able to get to that point. 155 00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:42,030 It's not necessarily saying that, you know, people have missed something very obvious. 156 00:16:42,030 --> 00:16:48,210 It's it's precisely because it's so concealed that we want to miss it, as it were. 157 00:16:48,210 --> 00:16:53,480 Yeah, absolutely. There's definitely a lot of food for thought in that point you're making, I think. 158 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,660 And I was thinking about that, too, while reading to other polls critique. 159 00:16:57,660 --> 00:17:05,050 And I felt that the thing I want to draw out. Again, so much one good thing, too, I have just the power of the states. 160 00:17:05,050 --> 00:17:11,020 And that's where I felt there was something going on here. But of course, it's very much type liberalism, as you said. 161 00:17:11,020 --> 00:17:17,440 But I think I think also one thing that it also brings to mind is when we're thinking about the early map, 162 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:22,750 Middle East politics is the limit to which ideas matter. I think they're useful. 163 00:17:22,750 --> 00:17:25,350 I think I think at the end of day, I also felt it was interesting, 164 00:17:25,350 --> 00:17:32,600 too important to include discussions, Manfield work, spending time with Kord, always staff. 165 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:40,260 I'm thinking about Bahrain, for example. I felt it was important to include the fact that whatever he thought about democracy, 166 00:17:40,260 --> 00:17:44,520 the fear was there was this great fear being spread by the time that it was put to me. 167 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:51,420 Right. That Bahrain would be successful, be like Iraq all over again in terms of their vision. 168 00:17:51,420 --> 00:17:55,300 It's not as was put to me as a foreign researcher, you'll be like Rwanda. 169 00:17:55,300 --> 00:18:01,750 This evocative image of Sunni's being held at checkpoints or so on and so isolating. 170 00:18:01,750 --> 00:18:06,970 And so I think that idea about a history of ideas is very important. 171 00:18:06,970 --> 00:18:14,500 But they take a second. Many also, again, whether call it Alwi and the Brotherhood in general, 172 00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:20,260 what they think about democracy pales in comparison to that very determined, counter-revolutionary effort in 2013. 173 00:18:20,260 --> 00:18:24,320 Right. Right. Ideas only go so far. Right. Right, right. Thinking about these things. 174 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:29,920 Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, yes, that's fascinating. And, you know, this is a helpful reminder. 175 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:36,940 Remember, I don't think it's mentioned this book in your other writings is one of these sort of speak about your direct engagements with the officer. 176 00:18:36,940 --> 00:18:42,730 This is the front line, and I believe you were that during this period. Is that is that fair to say? 177 00:18:42,730 --> 00:18:46,240 If I remember, it was long time ago. So, yes, it's a few periods. 178 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,150 I'm not during the coup itself, 179 00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:57,550 during the barring sort of special in the aftermath of something that I think when I first was able to spend time that tweet early 2012, 180 00:18:57,550 --> 00:19:01,330 I think it was probably right. It was something I was interested in asking about, thinking about. 181 00:19:01,330 --> 00:19:03,190 And there are some which should make it into this book. 182 00:19:03,190 --> 00:19:10,010 That's very interesting dynamics about what it's like being an interview amongst the Erlinda and the way that. 183 00:19:10,010 --> 00:19:17,020 Yeah, that was a very important time. Integration's Chicago is time for that for sure. 184 00:19:17,020 --> 00:19:25,840 So I, I mean, again, there sort of really interesting points that you bring up, and I'm being conscious of the time to anticipate. 185 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:27,600 Move on to the Denay. 186 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:37,840 A question to kind of set this up, as is Funabashi first and second, as a question kind of following the sequence of your book and you discuss, 187 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,550 then they add up to a more limited extent than they, as most noted, student in the West. 188 00:19:42,550 --> 00:19:46,750 And in a sense that the reason debate is known in the west is east. 189 00:19:46,750 --> 00:19:52,420 And you discussed them both as we're looking again at the concept of democracy. 190 00:19:52,420 --> 00:19:59,810 They kind of adhere to this belief that democracy, at least in the Middle East, could be a source of chaos and civil war. 191 00:19:59,810 --> 00:20:04,700 And I mean, I'm sort of using your term of chaos, which you also talk about. 192 00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:07,980 The context really gets discourse as well. 193 00:20:07,980 --> 00:20:19,280 And so I want you to just perhaps elaborate and perhaps evaluate that assessment of democracy as this potentially problematic force in the region. 194 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:30,170 Well, yes. The what chaos is the following? Well, do it fold off using which can could be translated differently, perhaps using conveyers language. 195 00:20:30,170 --> 00:20:35,320 Yeah. So the starting point for thinking about that is that both called Alwi and and they 196 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:42,940 recognise the importance of consultation or shura as part of ÄŒunek conceptual universe. 197 00:20:42,940 --> 00:20:47,560 Where they differ is that while Cobley seems democracy in particular, 198 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:59,830 I think a particular more good Ben Bay'ah so sees democracy as one form of consultation amongst many, which has no particular or additional value. 199 00:20:59,830 --> 00:21:08,860 And so for bimbette, the ideas, of course, rulers should consult that people and rulers should consult representatives of their people. 200 00:21:08,860 --> 00:21:13,300 But those representatives need not be elected. And it does not add legitimacy to them. 201 00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:19,060 What makes them legitimate is that they know the desires and needs of that people innately right. 202 00:21:19,060 --> 00:21:28,180 And offer a composite of that. That's his understanding. But the idea that he talks about is in his vision or the region explanation of 203 00:21:28,180 --> 00:21:32,260 what's happening with you right now is he used this phrase lack of common ground, 204 00:21:32,260 --> 00:21:36,580 oftentimes for why, in his view, democracy will not work. 205 00:21:36,580 --> 00:21:41,260 That's partly based on his assessment of recent historical events. 206 00:21:41,260 --> 00:21:47,140 He cites the Algerian civil war. He cites the off of the invasion of Iraq. 207 00:21:47,140 --> 00:21:51,610 For one thing, it's still saying that because it is lack of common ground, 208 00:21:51,610 --> 00:21:59,140 those who lose in elections are those who are in the minority are so fearful of what happens if they lose an election that they, 209 00:21:59,140 --> 00:22:06,470 in turn will endeavour to. Right through that democracy, by fighting so viciously against it, out of fear of what that might try. 210 00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:13,770 And then the idea, of course, in his assessment of the Syrian civil war is that because voting regimes are so 211 00:22:13,770 --> 00:22:18,360 fearful of democracy will happen to them because of this lack of common ground. 212 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:28,020 They will fight so viciously against it. Right. So his views of the desired democracy in turn brings about conflict inevitably in his justification. 213 00:22:28,020 --> 00:22:35,240 The other point that he makes is this idea. Of course, he uses discourse of peace, which by which he means the absence of violence. 214 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:46,530 Right. And for him, the term peace takes centre stage in his discourse because it's the basic condition from which any other rights can flow. 215 00:22:46,530 --> 00:22:57,180 Right. Of course, the critique of that is that he has this view of peace without justice and peace, without accountability. 216 00:22:57,180 --> 00:23:05,530 As being preferred. And this idea that he's in his discourses, that justice and accountability are postponed indefinitely. 217 00:23:05,530 --> 00:23:15,140 Right. Yes. I mean, yeah, that's I think your concluding description of him as sort of seeking peace without justice is quite apt because, 218 00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:20,220 you know, he's relatively explicit about it, hasn't he? And and it's it's fascinating. 219 00:23:20,220 --> 00:23:25,860 It's kind of like a discourse I've not really heard anywhere before, perhaps have not been paying attention. 220 00:23:25,860 --> 00:23:34,110 I mean, I'd I'd be interested to see if there's reflection in political theory at all in those sorts, because it doesn't seem terribly sustainable, 221 00:23:34,110 --> 00:23:41,070 except in the context of these all powerful modern states that are able to engage 222 00:23:41,070 --> 00:23:47,080 in surveillance and mass repression on the scale that no one witnesses through, 223 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,900 you know, in the precise revolutionary context. Yeah, yeah. 224 00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:59,550 So that takes us back to the again, the value of Apple o photos critique in general of the power of the state and the way 225 00:23:59,550 --> 00:24:03,090 these contemporary thinkers I'm not necessarily accounting for that could of course, 226 00:24:03,090 --> 00:24:07,440 been there as well, is of course, incredibly well versed in the classical tradition. 227 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:08,520 You used this concept, 228 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:17,170 this binary between the and NCSA should as a way of of distinction between the purview of the art that the purview of the ruler. 229 00:24:17,170 --> 00:24:23,060 Right. But of course, one need not be an expert in classical Islamic thought to see the difference between 230 00:24:23,060 --> 00:24:28,460 the Ottomans will Tanit or the Abbass caliphate's brands of hyper authoritarian state. 231 00:24:28,460 --> 00:24:35,650 That is the modern UAE with all the power and technology that it had in that vision is not necessarily accounted for. 232 00:24:35,650 --> 00:24:41,070 So this is where I mean, like in a sense, my interpretation differs slightly from yours, perhaps. 233 00:24:41,070 --> 00:24:45,960 I mean, more than slightly in the sense that I actually disagree with that. 234 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:46,620 Befuddle this one, 235 00:24:46,620 --> 00:24:55,140 because I actually think there is a cognisance on the part of the body of the just the all encompassing nature of the authoritarian state. 236 00:24:55,140 --> 00:24:59,500 And that that is a problem as well, although in a sense. 237 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:06,180 So I'm thinking of his book, Adeno CSF. So it's published 2006 originally by the European Council for Research. 238 00:25:06,180 --> 00:25:13,860 And you know that he has a passage or a page, page and a half where he talks about how in the mediaeval era, 239 00:25:13,860 --> 00:25:21,690 the sort of the state was this provincial IFAB, which didn't really have an impact on the vast majority of Muslim lands. 240 00:25:21,690 --> 00:25:26,940 You know, aside from the provincial capital cities, I mean, the the the ostensible Metropol, 241 00:25:26,940 --> 00:25:31,320 which didn't really have enough power to be able to assert its authority in the way that modern 242 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,820 technology just allows the bureaucratic state amongst your party set to take over everything. 243 00:25:35,820 --> 00:25:44,850 And in a sense, his argument is that is why the state is so important and needs to be brought within the control of the populace, 244 00:25:44,850 --> 00:25:47,730 because historically the Alamo would have, you know, 245 00:25:47,730 --> 00:25:54,150 managed through their own institutions and that if the administration of the law, the administration of education, 246 00:25:54,150 --> 00:25:58,860 the administration of managing all sorts of legal disagreements through combat and so on. 247 00:25:58,860 --> 00:26:03,870 Even if Akabi is very you know, the major parties are very often appointees of the state. 248 00:26:03,870 --> 00:26:11,040 But, you know, in a sense and other scholars about this as well. 249 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,800 Noah Feldman talks about the sort of independence of the and from. 250 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:23,160 From the state system. So whereas what's been Bayeh, on the other hand, know gives you no sense of that. 251 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:32,640 He's, in my estimation, know a brilliant jurist who is using his intellectual brilliance to basically justify what he wants. 252 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,650 And that's that's my reading. I'm not saying that they're telling. This is what you have to do. 253 00:26:36,650 --> 00:26:41,550 But this just this Concorde in the way that they see the world and the rulers then and he himself, 254 00:26:41,550 --> 00:26:47,670 that it's going to sort of give rise to that, in my estimation. I suppose time is running short, but. 255 00:26:47,670 --> 00:26:51,510 Yes. So it's a very important points. I think I'm fischeri. 256 00:26:51,510 --> 00:26:52,680 Your point about Green Bay. 257 00:26:52,680 --> 00:27:00,670 It's interesting as kind of a concordance one can see with perhaps we'll hear Mercado's of benevolent, authoritarian and saltshakers aid. 258 00:27:00,670 --> 00:27:07,620 Right. And the way I said, I think in this book was talking about going back to the 70s when Sheik Azad, 259 00:27:07,620 --> 00:27:14,130 the founder of the UAE, makes a number of high-Profile visits to the Mauritania a major more time, the UAE, 260 00:27:14,130 --> 00:27:22,440 sorry, is the largest donor to Mauritania as we're building infrastructure in a way and one can so appreciate without wishing to get too technical, 261 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:30,680 thinking about how he might, of course, be a kind of figure. Right. So desirous of humanitarian rule, of humanitarian day. 262 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,860 So, Paul, the Emirati brand of Sheikh out as well. 263 00:27:34,860 --> 00:27:42,030 I think also just the last point, I think about your point about the authoritarian states and card, always recognition of that. 264 00:27:42,030 --> 00:27:42,930 I think it's really interesting. 265 00:27:42,930 --> 00:27:50,610 I think it makes you think about the kind of theoretical literature that I'm drawing on in this book based on people like the second a grandma, 266 00:27:50,610 --> 00:27:54,790 somebody shelke seven Mahmoody. Well, hello. 267 00:27:54,790 --> 00:28:00,260 More recently, this idea about how it's not on the screen, an authoritarian state, 268 00:28:00,260 --> 00:28:06,940 an authoritarian state is just the modern nation state as a whole and how it shapes the kind of possibilities. 269 00:28:06,940 --> 00:28:14,430 Again, that is a that's not just theoretical debates about where you stand and how what kind of theoretical do you find useful and convincing? 270 00:28:14,430 --> 00:28:18,180 So for me, I find that kind of literature presented by us. 271 00:28:18,180 --> 00:28:24,180 We show a slight loss. Yes. So Timothy Mitchell, not so much. 272 00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:33,450 I think that kind of [INAUDIBLE] about this, the state in general. So it just depends a bit the kind of rhetoric you find useful in which war. 273 00:28:33,450 --> 00:28:41,160 I must admit, I've not read summation his book. I mean, I've read some of these articles, but his book had just sort of skimmed very quickly. 274 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:51,330 And I'm going to sort of dig three footnotes and try and inform myself of that sort of theoretical universe a bit more deeply and. 275 00:28:51,330 --> 00:28:54,850 But this has been a wonderful conversation. It's really been informative. 276 00:28:54,850 --> 00:29:00,210 Eye-Opening And I've had the opportunity to sort of go into and get my teeth into some very interesting questions. 277 00:29:00,210 --> 00:29:03,990 I've been having and I'm sure we'll continue this conversation as I get. 278 00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:07,100 Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. 279 00:29:07,100 --> 00:29:12,570 So I've been speaking to the author, David Warren, about his book, Rebels in the Gulf right here. 280 00:29:12,570 --> 00:29:26,086 And this has been nearly sent a book talk. Thank you for listening and goodbye from Oxford.