Petula, everyone, thank you for joining us this evening.
It's a pleasure to have to talk about Hungary as a speaker this evening.
The debate in Hungary is the chairman of the Syrian British historian and also the director of Rethink Evolved Society.
Haitham graduated from University of Damascus Medical School in 1999.
He was detained in Syria. As a political resident from 2003 to 2004 for his civic activism.
This happened in his hometown valley in rural Damascus.
He came to Manchester in 2007 to complete his Ph.D. graduation.
After he's completed his speciality in 2001,
he helped establish Rethink civil Society as a manchester based charity supporting Syrian refugees and asylum seekers.
In 2019, he co-founded a Syrian for this story as a political body amplify the voices
of the Syrian Independent and looking for an inclusive and democratic Syria.
Everyone that is how. Some of them also some said they felt germ of the sandwich from sometime.
Article published in 2000 might two to to be the voice of working group on behalf of seniors almost all
the members of society and should be working for the Syrian refugees and asylum seekers in Russia.
So York. They are going to talk about the conflict in Syria from my personal experience.
So because of stories I would move towards some political things,
which I'm sure maybe most of you know better than I should of a resource that some of the slides contain doesn't contents, which some it was.
Well, if I is them. So this is the podium in a program.
Syria is blessed with just a beginning.
Syria and in 2003, the population was around 23 million.
They are more than 50 and about 20 ethnic and religious groups.
And they get into the majority of what we have also Kurds, Syrians, Circassians,
other we have religiously the majority are Muslim, Sunni, but also we have otherwise Shia Christians.
I think we have is the Christian churches, churches, these six Christian sects.
And in Syria we have also Druze in the past, but they most of them left after the establishment of the Israeli.
This is Syria, which is really nice.
Maybe you can tell us more about this, this beautiful Syria.
Unfortunately, I won't want to talk about this beautiful Syria. I'm going to talk about the Syria beef.
So there is another Syria believe I local story, not story, just like this one filmmaker who was visiting by mail phone.
And so he was visiting there in 1990 something and he was enjoying the links there with the ancient places.
Suddenly he knew that there is a very notorious prison there, which, as you well know, doesn't exist in the past.
So also from Homs, a long story.
Maybe I should start from the coup in 1963, but then again in 1970, houses of the father of the current president,
Bashar became president through, of course, he remained until he died in 2000.
He killed or imprisoned all of his opponents.
Bashar became a president after his father inhabited, but is not capable of this sort of thing.
What you have is like he became Elizabeth after his father.
And in terms of political changes of who are not changes,
nothing happened like just there were some changes in the financial situation of how they
the relationship with Western countries or have not in the human rights aspects in Syria,
unfortunately. So what does it mean to live under the shadow regime?
When we talk about dictatorial regime, we think about how to build a regime.
You can't be a consultant to principles, you can't be a minister or you can't participate freely in politics.
It's more than that. It's not only about politics.
This ideology affects every single movement of their people.
So let's start with the first major lesson like life, when I suppose my father in law and his wife, let's say imam,
or a teacher whose teacher would have died in 2000,
he was from a mosque and the government ordered all imams to praise the late president and his son Bashar.
In the final speech. I, a couple of years before that, only give an ordinary speech without mentioning Hafiz or his son at all.
Because of that, they arrested him for two months, more than two months in very bad condition.
Offers up in 2001. There was some.
The relaxation of the situation said it's let's not see.
I we were like, uh, it was just it w w something.
So a group of young people, including myself at that time, tried to participate positively in our society.
So we started by opening at 11 of what we were about 20, 30 people, men and women.
Every one of us give up on 5100 bombs.
We had a basement. We collected all books and followed the relatives and cousins.
And we put them in the basement and we make it open for probably just two days.
The dogs, the security forces or the secret police or whatever you want to call it, They can just do this.
They can close the library article, discredit more than one book because of this, because the others, including Biden, I don't know why.
They just think that there's something wrong in the violence.
I started my journey with the security forces on this, especially since that time they invited us for a daily interrogation of their offices.
Every day we should go there and just to stay.
Sometimes they ask some questions, which is covering the money.
What's wrong? What's your aims of opening this library?
Who asked you to do that? All of these things.
They leave us at night doing that every day for 40 days.
So that was first. The other things they left us, but they didn't give us the loads.
But in 2003, I'm jumping, of course, because we were told again many times, 34,000 to come.
But in 2003 there was the invasion of Iraq at that time as a number of hostages.
I have my own idea of the sort of social change which we need to.
What are the countries that say we should do something, something positive also?
So we have to be some time is about time to do things ourselves.
On the social side of things should be something good before before we ask for very great changes in our society,
like, for example, fighting America at that time,
because many people thought that we are going to fight America in Iraq and they many us join the fight against the like against America.
So we had those three governments antismoking campaign, anti-corruption campaign.
We will talk about the bribery in Syria. It's very unfortunate.
It's very common practice in Syria to bribe the judge or to give bribery to a policeman
or to do a job that you will by giving bribery to the gathering of the Israeli.
We had been camping. Well, we went on the streets of our city earlier.
I lived in the. About a year ago surrounding the schools, we went to the sense of making this campaign again to set it up so we should be positive,
not waiting for the government or do for anyone else thought to be positive instead of us, we should do something good.
And we finished like a silent march against the invasion of Iraq.
I think also that just the days of the vote, the security forces are less than 24 of us.
Myself, my father in law. So that was the second time my father in law was obviously at the beginning that with us in the
presence of the security forces launches and the massacres in the basement of those countries.
Three months of interrogations. Again, sensitive questions from why you did this and the aims.
What is the name of your political party? So first thought, for example, today they would beat me, so to say, the mood of the political party,
which I did the following today, is the cinematographers that I have that you don't talk political party, both of you.
You would have a political party in the future at the foot of business, in the centre of the.
You repeat that. Good to get them the ends of my principles. So.
So it's like the art of Ghost. At the end of the year they will get to you and you give your fingerprints on papers without taking them.
So you don't know exactly what, but you are happy when they give them that.
Your fingerprints. That is up the first interrogation. Now that's another step.
Now, so that we finished those interrogations, they released some of us, six of them, and sent us a bunch of the that they sent us to.
That's a so my reason that once a person was locked up, but like now, now it is stolen, but that it was better from combating today.
It was much better after being there for a month.
Or do they sent us to seek the truth military court.
It is. This is always talk about Syria and those are not what you see all of these different origins.
Everything is having names without any any meaning.
So let's call it what it is, not because it's secret field.
Military secret means that it's secret. Completely secret.
They took us from the prison, of course, blindfolded us a closed bomb, and took us some one, which we don't know where from.
The bomb is just one by one to a small room.
Now it is sealed because that is that is not no lawyer, no charges, nothing.
Just like the one I found military judge in this uniform.
So here we are alone.
Again, not nobody is. We are. What do you start to do?
He didn't set it up. These are the charges.
Or what's the this he just started for? Fight them.
Okay. So this is your own ability to do this.
Their actions in the future, I said I'm going to go was like this system for the benefit of my image.
Is that so? And so the charges are already secured.
You open your prison for life.
And then they said they ask for the medicine.
Why would I ask for justice? Because of that.
You get me out of this. What? We are here. They sent us, none of us for three years.
Imprisonment is simply my friend myself for four years imprisonment.
And they said both of us. There was a reason because they consider that us.
That is an insult to the court when I said I spoke.
So they give me an additional I want you to do something profiling.
I'm not going to talk about that solitary confinement. Just like when they push me, they give me something out of this and again,
took me downstairs to let them know like what was coming up and so pushed me inside,
closed down, said, you know, like I thought, this is this person I should've stayed with.
You know, of course, that just by the way that they sentenced me,
I heard that there was a delay on another trial, just like because they just you know, me.
I didn't know that they sent me on all of these things.
You know, I knew them. Some of them after two years, some of them after he was released.
So. So you they go to you that you are like, this is this is this is the way of the court.
Yeah. So that's what I was again very cold.
I, I touched a bruise, I bone two blankets so I, it was one put the mirror the one to, to talk my body very concerned.
I don't know if you will survive. That's what one hope is and and positive.
So about December January there about 50 centimetres of snow outside so it was very cold.
I think Jenkins ordered the volume of my jacket the whole seven months I spent this know.
And this one I want to have someone with in the frozen water so I have to shower with frozen water until I just sort of put the everything back on.
How do you know this story about one book when they took me out of the solitary, said that was that is that in my life until now.
I remember when they called, when I got home with, you know, they said I wasn't at home,
but it was I was I, I had just at that time, but I had two children.
So I help my mother, my brother, I had my citizenship.
But all of this is not how they are done that moment in time, because we are all the same.
Their connection with the outside world. Of course they don't us.
They don't let anyone tell us. My father knew that reason that he can three days off to go to the US building.
Luckily enough, they allowed him in because they know that not only are the events, one of the officers, the officer we all seen.
I was under his feet. He was in the first floor.
I wasn't in the basement, he said. We never seem to find them somewhere else.
Well, my father is like me, you know that.
Unless I got something, he was.
After three months, they knew that the group is in prison and they applied for a visit.
Luckily enough, they. Mission Impossible.
So it was the first visit, but the visit is where the visit to me, I was understood and the sort employed.
They took me out so as to I above body of the soldiers.
But we are still. We don't see anything. It's just like, how are you until you will be out of order, like 20 minutes.
Like they even they did not want to touch my wife or my children or my parents.
So it was more the larger than life happiness.
The visit to the office. The second visit of the age was from the first as well.
I was lucky of the others. I met people who never have any visits for three or four years.
All of this attention is luckier than those who were in that war or other bloodshed in 2005.
My father tried to do something active to release me and others, so he established some of his friends,
something called the Committee of the Families of Political Prisoners.
And immediately the following day they did not sit on the street, was doing his work.
They did not him and took him to a security branch.
But they released them after one month because at that time, as you see, some human rights organisations outside see the force.
They mentioned his name. So there was like some news about them.
So they they missed him of the time of August the month.
And I was amazed often after my mother in November 2005, after three one half years in prison due to a visitation,
I this one because there was pressure on Syria at that time because of what happened in Lebanon and living at that time,
only they hated the bloody stuff but then was assassinated.
I then led to the it was behind the other.
There was like a resolution of the U.N. to the security initiative in the Johnson under Article seven.
So if they don't cooperate with the investigation, things out of the news, not even military solutions can be applied.
So they were like thinking about time.
So they tried to make some compromise with their own people to see the regime so that at least 193 political prisoners.
I was lucky enough to be one of them. We were about one four was we?
We were just. So this is an example of young people trying to function positively in the society,
being the seeds of some campaigns against smoking, against poverty.
An old man like my father was arrested just because he's asking for the release of his son.
We know that this situation will not continue like that.
People would say enough is enough. Something that happened, for example, what happened in the jihad in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen at that time.
So in March 2000, the Syrian people started their own uprising.
Others started by. Others have a tough battle.
There is a positive result in Syria, where some took because of the gulf against the regime on the walls of schools, the school,
the security forces led by the cousin of Bashar al-Assad, arrested them,
tortured then they didn't like that, took them off when their families asked for their release.
Except forget your children, go to your wives are being YouTube.
That sparked the thirst for this. In the end, they did it because of a shot, killed four people that died in the street.
Thus far more focussed in the eyes of many brothers that we work in Syria and from north to south.
In many cities, those protests started.
Usually this protest happened after 5:00 because all the Muslims should go inside the playoffs.
So it's an opportunity which the government can't prevent because people should go to the player.
So this was an opportunity for people to gather there, understood the protest from outside the mosque immediately.
So every Friday you would start by maybe ten, 2000, 200 brothers every Friday.
So at the beginning, nobody mentioned toppling the regime or like they don't want Assad because they were afraid.
And to be honest, it was the demands of the people, the job, the first, let's say, then Fridays.
Jonathan Freed Freedom. Freedom almost wanted to help us and more Syria freedom enough for adults.
But then, of course, when you talk to political people too, and this was mentioned, does this for, you know, free election,
which often and has been the end of the dictatorial regime of then this goes up all of these bloggers,
even by the admitting the regime, it admitted that it was peaceful for more than six months.
Every Friday, they showed protesters as they've killed tens, hundreds of one Friday,
and then they sent their security forces to the houses, arrest tens of thousands of protesters from their own houses.
At the beginning, they were like they them to be too harsh.
So they arrest people sometimes 5 to 10 days and release them sometimes one month.
For example, I would talk about my father. My father participated.
It was 21st of March 2011.
The only chanting and that I have interests for about this is my father.
He was working silently. I thought the job was free, though pleased that they understood the first time on 1st of May for one month this was okay.
The situation was not that bad. So they they tortured him, but the food was enough to survive.
They left him the other day about the hope.
Never went out of his arms, never except to bring bread or something, that they arrested him again in September 2012.
Well, this night for five months of the torture. They decided to come back in September 2012 again for another focus on the US.
What are you thinking, Peter, that would take you off the radar? So when he was released the third time, we couldn't breathe the usual lives.
You should leave. We don't believe that. We would agree that the first time since he was arrested, I was just like it was okay.
The second time I was one of the first time was one it because I knew the extent of the torture.
So it wasn't it wasn't easy for us so we could do other things with Syria.
The trouble with my mom was the second time we took my brother Mohammad, my youngest brother, with him, and again,
they they tortured him and he was lucky enough to be released after six months to Jordan and often Jordan.
He went to Germany and is in Germany.
Either that from my father in law, he didn't participate in the protest and he was against his brothers because he said Assad is a brother.
The whole international community is backing him.
Nobody wants to change it. From America to Israel to Iran to Russia.
All of them need him and he will never stop until next year to go on the ground.
He would get everyone before, so he was against the Jews.
But just because he was non-political and because he's against the regime, they took up again when this all just came to his house.
They took him from his office and on the 15th of July, 2011.
Andrew, anything about him at all, even if he's still alive?
The lives of those in prison. You know, there's plenty of documentation records.
This is a boy doing 2012. I wanted to die documenting 35 missiles of torturing, sitting in prison.
This was I was involved at the beginning, of course, But I made those reports because I knew everything,
not only because I saw some of them when I was in prison.
My father told me, you know, they tortured him. And I me how they don't show him.
They literally killed them, under which they tortured them, many of them, until they got by all.
These are some of my friends from not just the examples. This is my friend.
One year before you enter the prison, This is two days after.
This is a hours before this is when released.
But the most horrible, horrible thing happened to the Syrian people was Cesar.
Cesar is a fake name for a military photographer, was responsible to take photographs for all bodies of the prisoners when they died.
They document everything for themselves in this bill. And I think it's like we let it fly by from lots of forces.
They don't know who they are. So they documented what that was like.
So Cesar was responsible to to have these photographs of them.
And he managed to smuggle 55,000 photos of people killed and, of course, 55,000 photos.
Positives is for 11,000 people because everyone has a lot of freedom for photos.
Of course, the photos outnumbers not a lot of things.
So the numbers, three numbers, number from the personnel themselves, some number for the branch which detained them of a locomotive.
I'm sorry. Not just for this for just a few. So this is a right to choose, that is.
Horrible photos. Just imagine the small soldier.
He's pointing at the bodies. Are you smiling?
I don't the way this is the way.
Anyway, so these are the bodies.
If you see this photo, they are putting them in plastic bags, accumulating them here until they took them to a mass grave.
We don't know now who, when and where we find those mass graves, where they buried all of these.
But I am just mad like a minute or something.
If you can see that the name tattoos is within that, isn't it?
Talk to us. Yeah, this is. This proves this in Syria.
I mean, you know, Bill, by the way, this is a photo op.
This is a photo from this angle. From this, I guess the presidential palace is shown, and that's for them.
So it is less than four miles away from the presidential palace.
If it's from this angle, this is a muslim hospital, military hospital.
So it's from this angle. So you see you'll see the presidential palace that.
This is the way of torturing, of course, some woman, some action, some of them.
I myself recognised at least 15.
Some of them funds. Some of them I hope doesn't. But it doesn't.
Cousins of mine. My father, two of them. My father died.
More than ten people from my hometown. This was the closest one to my Muhammad Ali.
He was lost. He was also killed.
A lot of shock for most of them. Of. From day one when there are protests against Assad, the presence of his troops to crush those cities, he fell.
But since he's sending his own troops, many officer soldiers, this is that we don't want to get our own.
I think these are not very high ones.
Most of them are soldiers on the goal line and they establish a zone, something called the Free Syrian Army, which is not an army.
It's like groups of people surrounded by civilians who managed to take many areas from the control of the Syrian army because of the symbolism,
the scope of the situation.
And so this was very, very weak from the second as you them.
So they managed in less than one year to take many places, all of these.
So there is no victim under the gun outside the control of Assad,
under the control of groups of the Syrian army, the Free Syrian Army, the opposition groups.
And the response was, as of every Saturday, we get outside the scope of every dog.
They send all sorts of weapons against the U.S.A. missiles, not even the Scud missiles.
Continuous bombardment continues. The most annoying thing is the bombs.
Very cheap instrument because this is the other ones.
It's about 25 bottles full of.
They finished with with Daddy. Well, some some children answered it by helicopter.
Then it would take it any way. Those would take it anywhere.
So there's somebody that houses.
Anyway, the good thing is that because they took the by the helicopter and told them what about this is why this guy was here is local.
So they sent tens of thousands of Los Lobos over the cities of.
But it won't be one, two, three, four, three that this could last like.
This is a missile you think as three targets of the ones that come you five bodies, legs and heads everywhere.
And of course this is a the children frightened.
And you've got to imagine. And the most annoying thing is that these people remain a little bit afraid because you don't have the instruments,
the means to take them out of the hillside.
Sometimes, you know, you have the scream, but you can't they.
Something happens. Some of them are not going to have this things.
This is an example of all the building collapse.
All of a sudden, they are playing the lives very well indeed.
In Syria. You get people all over the world.
I what I talk to people about why we have with us is that if you are if you see this photograph,
if you see this face, you often see, look, this is what happened to the children of your neighbour.
Are you watching Jordan? You see the sympathy, your children.
I don't think you see, you will see your, your, your sense of what I said.
Follows The sounds of the provided community by one word is not.
My one month is nothing. Plenty of the most annoying thing happened with Obama, said using Politico.
What is it about? What does it mean?
Well, everything else. It's like saying that you haven't been in line for anything else.
So I'm not because of the chemical weapons. So it's like, okay, what about them?
What about everything else? What about the sporting goods? What about the missiles?
What about these groups? Massacres. Body mass.
They've been. But isn't that a red line?
Even that red line was across in August 2000.
And when Assad used a group that he was to use the on Ghouta.
These are all of the schools, the subject of the mosques and the August article in one line.
More than 1400 people, many of them are children.
Well, what happened? The UK Parliament gathered at the time.
They decided not to act. Obama was reluctant to go.
And then what did he do? He met with Russia.
Lavrov After the time of this great deal, they were to cease all of the chemical stock of the Syrian regime.
I'm a big victim. They seized all of the technical stuff from the assassination.
Okay. And what about those who were killed?
Nothing. That's after that guy.
That was not green light. It's not green and yellow on all the calls for Assad, because even after using chemical weapons,
nobody said anything since the day he was executed and got on the paved the way for those groups who all of you know that give them guns,
dozens of dogs. Okay. And then I should go into a room.
Nobody cares about Syrians. You have the right to do whatever you want.
You don't care about Syrians. What about their lives?
So the schools, many jihadist groups and so control schools from all over the world,
the government, the members of the establish many things in Syria.
But the most important and known one is the so-called Islamic State.
Does that change the battle to make the situation more complicated since the time before that?
If you want to win, this is to go to that. You're right about Assad did this as the Syrian regime go through.
But after that, the whole talk is about goals.
Nobody talked about Assad. They talked about Syrian people.
Everything is about us, is about the place.
Is this about what is this crisis? Is this only because it is because of even ourselves here and much?
Is that what they want? Some people want to make job.
What is the opposite? You know, surmises. So I suspect told me that they took plenty of places, not just one issue, by the way.
They took plenty of the from the opposition.
But this is the only way. It's not populism.
So they expand it. And a few weeks, few months even, they crossed the law.
But the big parts of the coalition America that they established, the coalition against us is in 2047, 65, at the beginning and July 17.
Yes, the coalition service, as I said, on the day the story goes, is all Jews.
Okay, so who is the supporters of the opposition from day one?
We about. We have to support those countries, Turkey and Muslim countries.
Okay. They said what they wanted to do. So, for example, they said the Syrian ambassador also they closed the embassies.
They cite the Syria from the Arab League.
They give financial support to the political groups.
They hosted their meetings military wise.
They give money to some groups after 2000 when they give money to some groups.
But unfortunately, we should know that every one of them has their own issue.
Those countries, why don't you know, the architecture of issues?
So they don't want to see the people who are doing all of the democracy.
They are the poor democracy. They want to destabilise Assad because he's allied with Iran.
They want to go the bus with the UN. So they have their own set of people to win our democracy.
They don't like democracy with Turkey. The main important issue for them is this people give this not to of Kurdish states and the southern borders.
So this is the most annoying thing for them. So the neighbourhood that is going to be three times military in Syria,
it was to take parts of Syria to put the land between the Kurdish people, not to have continuous under the control.
But again, this was the countries of their politics as well.
They don't like Assad and his control.
He got a thug his way. Voice have the rhetoric is always against Israel.
But this is not. He started building good relations with Western countries.
His father was pro Russia political. But Assad is like the first visit.
Maybe it was through our links. So the issue is he has good relationship with with it with Western countries as compared to his father, for example.
At the same time with Isaias. So they have all the position or more than was done for democracy, all of these things.
Supporters of Assad, they were more or less the supporters of the opposition.
They put money, souls, fighters on behalf of.
They want they sent their mothers, which is Hezbollah, like the forgotten militias to fight.
That is I don't like this applied that I get my voice won over by what he was like for years.
As you well know. Again, this year he was like his father was fighting alongside Assad.
But Russia, for some they want Russia to use the veto at least 12 times to prevent any resolution against them, sent military experts.
And then with all of this support, he was of Syria that she was about to collapse.
In September of 2015, the opposition was out of Damascus.
Russia said no, they intervened by their own Egypt's fighters,
that all the military intervention to change this of the solution against people without present question.
So they sent their jet fighters all over Syria.
They said, of course, that they are planning terrorist attack.
Everything except those that schools, hospitals.
The the most unlikely is the international community.
Every time, for example, in my hometown, they had just five bombs every night.
They sent list of these 2015 attacks on the city.
The simulation at that time, there is total problem with this solution.
Every time. Chances are if you evacuate the down, they will stop.
Of course, there is no reason why they should continue.
It's empty. So it was a blessing that they give their blessing for Syrian people to leave their own dogs.
My hometown was empty and this is my hometown.
This is the best area in my hometown. This is not here.
This is not the West. This is the best area that I know.
Some buildings that are alive on the other side I've got.
I want to show you why. Blindfolded buildings.
Five stories. That's like those. Boy my mom was.
So ended by Syria map. This is in 2017.
The red now is the area under the Syrian regime control.
When I say Syria, vision means Russia and Iran. Assad is above now.
So this is yellow area is under the control of Kurdish people.
I do not think of this. Again, it's the US slightly UK, France.
There is the oil here. So because what about the oil? You'll find it.
And then it comes under this area.
This was always a sort of taken by Turkey again to cut Kurdish area into two halves.
This area in green left 2070, were left in the hands of the opposition and some areas under license in 2019.
Turkey invaded more areas so they have no more area under their own control.
So they've got plenty of areas under the Kurdish control disappeared from position.
This one is empty, just like not to be achieved by this green.
The area until now under the opposition control.
Is this area the green one here? Everyone else disappeared.
They can park by Russia and Iran on some small sports voices.
I don't know why they give them until now, the Turkish don't ask.
And of course, to make it all of the cars here. This is about thank you from Israel since 19.
So until now, you'll find people saying go for a certain number to stay in power if he has no support from Syria.
Definitely not support him. Why do would put him in power for 12 years before you forget everything and they forget the most important thing.
This is a support that the US forces. The brutality of who they are.
I talk to my cousins throughout the world who know for certain that they don't want nobody wants to be a part of the solution.
Video Future. I will leave that to the questions. Thank you. Thank you, Haitham.
You know, I've seen these photos before, but when I see them again, it feels like the first time.
So every time I see them, I think he agrees. Every time we see them, we feel shocked again.
It's a process, you know, because when you are detached from these photos for some time, you tend to try not to believe what you what you've seen.
But when you see them again, you have that shock. All over again.
Thank you very much, Haitham. Thank you for having. Thank you.
Thank you so much. Thank you as well for for attending this talk.
Thank you.