Hello and welcome to Pivot Points. This is the podcast about the pivotal moments that have shaped our academic, professional and personal lives.
I'm Sam Cooke, your head of communications at Wilson College. And I'm all about creating ways for you to share your stories like this podcast.
Do you feel?
Candidate Esto Paolo's has been on a journey in academia, from biomedical chemistry to physics, all the way to geography and sustainable food systems.
She's driven to make an impact in the world, and she's starting right here at Wolfson with her involvement in college governance.
You and I know each other a little bit through generally life at Wolfson, right?
Yeah, that's what I was. I mean, bumped into each other in a few different spaces.
That's actually true. I think we first met each other at the Olympics.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So. And then also through the green team.
That's true. Mm hmm. And to, like, college governance and general.
So. Food. Survey stuff.
Yeah, food surveys. So can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing here at Wilson?
So I'm a student at Wilson. I'm doing a little environmental science.
I started by doing a master, and I was a Wilson student by then as well.
And then I was one year of an associate member. So, yeah, I would say generally I'm a student at Wilson, and now I've taken up some of the,
like, more governance related roles, just trying to help out.
Mm hmm. Um, so I'm part of the subcommittee for the Food and for Catering, and I'm also vice chair of General Meeting.
So I'm representing the student body in the governance of the college.
Yeah. And you're studying food systems? I'm studying food systems.
Exactly. So I'm looking to talk us through that in layman's terms for us.
I mean, the good thing is that just started, right? So I don't know anything about layman's terms right now.
So what I'm trying to understand is how to build resilience within the food system.
So, um, the way our food system currently works,
it's arguably not sustainable in a sense that we're like degrading the soil in many parts of the earth.
We are having big issues with biodiversity loss and also, um, yeah.
Increasing climate change through unsustainable agricultural practices and stuff.
So we the question is like,
how can you get the food system into a more sustainable state and then also maintain it that that's what resilience basically means, like trying to.
Like let it stay in a state where, like, we are having enough food for the world population.
That's the goal. But then at the same time, we don't degrade the environment.
We have good economic outcomes as well. So people who earn their living in food system are not like affected by poverty and stuff like that.
And as well that you have like social and cultural values which are attached to that they are thriving.
That's the idea. And hence your involvement as Kayseri rep to the college.
Yeah, I kind of. I mean, that was more an accident, to be honest.
I know Freddy, who is the former chair of general meeting,
and he was at some point asking me about like, Hey, we've got this position within the college.
We need a catering rep. Would you be interested in doing that?
And I was like, Yes, why not? As life happens.
And so that's how I ended up there. But it's useful to have a background in foods.
Yeah, because you're just. I feel like, more involved in the topic already, so.
Yeah, somehow, like a little bit of a practical application.
Yeah. And it's also kind of I feel like it profits my research as well, right?
Because I actually see what might be the real life problems, if you like, make a smart plan how you can, I don't know,
make the food system better and then at some point you realise this is actually not at all applicable in right where you live.
Very different than the real world. Exactly. So it's it's good to have this like groundwork as well.
Yeah, I think so. So can you talk me through your academic journey a little bit?
So you you said you studied three times of biomedical chemistry and then you switched to physics, right?
And now you're studying food systems. So talk me through that journey and how we got to where we are today.
It is a very long story. Sorry. And we have time.
Yeah. I mean, the thing is like it it's not even that exciting, but so it started off basically after school.
Like, I guess every academic journey starts at some. You're German?
I'm German. Yeah, exactly. So I'm I a school not knowing what to do, like basically having no idea what to do.
My problem was I kind of liked all subjects in school, so I was always like, I can't really choose and don't want to limit myself.
And what I knew from the start is that I wanted to do something which has a meaning to me.
So some way I felt like helping society, helping humanity in like a broad sense, but how I didn't know.
So I was thinking about maybe I should be a teacher or I should do medical science, which was one of the ideas.
And so I think I focussed on medical science because it's a way to like combine a lot of different research fields.
So you need physics and a bit you need biology, you need medicine, you need chemistry.
So that was kind of a way to combine as many sciences as possible.
And there was this one course in my hometown university in mines where they had biomedical chemistry, which is basically everything at once.
Right. So I started doing that and there were two things that I quite soon realised, but it took me a time to actually make a decision on that.
So the first thing that I realised is that I started a course in chemistry.
It says biomedical chemistry. But the thing like the, the big word in it is chemistry and that's what you're studying.
And did you realise that before you started it or.
I did somehow, but I didn't know to what extent it would be chemistry and not biomedical chemistry in the sense that I had.
I think in my whole three terms I had three courses on, but as biology and medicine and the rest was all chemistry courses.
So the second thing that I realised during that time was I'm not really a person who's to or I don't feel really well placed in a laboratory.
I'm not a I don't know, I just like I prefer theoretical work in some way, at least if it comes to laboratory work.
So I love interacting with people, but I'm not really a person who's like as her,
for example, standing in front of like things which are very dangerous.
Like there are some chemicals which can easily kill you within seconds, or even worse,
they kind of introduce like cancerous processes in your body and you might get cancer like
ten years later without even realising that you're like poisoning yourself right now.
So I was like really anxious about that. So that was something that is not yeah, it's just not for me.
So I was studying it and after some time I was like, Okay, this is really not my not.
My course of study, I should do something else. So based on the environment, you kind of felt like it wasn't your place.
Yeah. Like, based on the. Based on.
I don't know, based on the. So I couldn't picture myself doing something related to chemistry later on and I
couldn't picture myself continue doing chemistry for another extended time period,
which would happen, I mean, maybe after my masters I would do, I don't know,
work in a different feel or do a default related to like in more medical topics so I don't have to be in laboratory.
But even then, I was wondering, would I be happy if I would spend my life in the laboratory in some way?
And I answer that question with no. And then something else happened.
I had in my third term, I had a course which was for physical chemistry.
And what we did was quantum mechanics. And I was fascinated.
I was like really fascinated by the whole topic I like.
That was the first course where I was really sitting there and really enjoying myself.
And it was like after just three times I was like, okay, I know I don't really like laboratory work.
And the course of that that I enjoyed most for the whole time of my studies were math, physics and physical chemistry.
And I was like, Okay, maybe there's a theme here, maybe there's a theme,
maybe it's just just say no to every laboratory, work for now and just go to physics.
So that made me switch to physics. But my problem was that that kind of.
Conflicted with my other theme, which was like, I want to do something meaningful and useful.
And my problem with physics always was through my studies that I really loved it.
It's beautiful. I feel like it's like, Ma, the math behind it is beautiful.
The logic is beautiful. I like the way you can, like, derive things.
That was for me, always the thing that I like most that I don't actually have to remember that much.
I can derive things as I go and things suddenly make sense.
And it's also fun to see where you actually don't know how how our current knowledge is actually fitting into the picture.
And they're concurring or. I'm missing the word here.
Sorry. I'm making this. I would jump in, but math is not my area.
Oh, no, no, no. I'm talking about there's a competition between different knowledge theories.
So that's also interesting to see. But it's not really directly useful in a sense that you could say, okay, it's,
I don't know, contribution to, like human health in general in some way.
So when I switched to physics, I was for some time thinking, okay,
I might just stop on that like idea of doing medical research and long run, but I didn't want to let it go completely in the beginning.
So what I did, I studied physics and medicine at the same time.
So in Germany as in your undergrad? Yes. Okay. So you're quite a journey on your undergrad.
Yeah, I did. So the thing was like, medicine is like it's not like in the U.S. where you have to go to medical school after you study,
but you can study medicine from the go. And that's what I did.
So I studied medicine and physics at the same time.
And then I said, okay, I'll give myself one term, and after this one term I will decide whether I do medicine or physics.
And like, I think after three weeks it was clear to me I will do physics, not medicine.
Like that was not a decision to make actually. So I did physics, I did a lot of physics.
I loved it. I went into particle physics because I did work in a research group in my university.
So this was still in mind where I was working for some project which is related to Sun.
So I even went to CERN for three months, which was really, really nice.
And during that time period I already kind of knew, still knowing that, I don't know, like, like work that much,
that I would rather go into theoretical physics because I really like this theoretical beauty.
So that's what I did. And I thought, okay, maybe I can apply for an only theoretical master.
And there was this one master course in Oxford, which is called mathematics and theoretical physics.
I thought perfect for me. So that's why I applied.
So you can have your master's. Exactly. And I was lucky enough to get in.
So. Yeah.
But by the time that I wanted to start my masters, I was still kind of confused about what should I do on the long run because I liked the work,
but I was still not see myself as a like researcher in physics, not because I don't like it, but because I was like, Is it like it's my liking?
It's enough to keep me fuelled for the rest of my career.
So at that point you didn't see yourself as a pure academic in research?
Yeah, I just didn't know how to apply it in a in a way that is really meaningful to me.
Like, I mean, it's fun doing it, but it's like, just like, I mean,
I think I didn't even think about going into anything but academia because I think it's sometimes quite hard to work as a physicist,
especially a theoretical physicist if you don't stay in academia.
So I can picture myself those jobs. I was. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. So most theoretical physicists I know who did not end up going to academia are doing something completely different,
like consulting or like working in some company, doing some, I don't know, math related stuff, engineering, something like that.
So it's really hard to like. Picture your journey ahead.
And by that time, I got quite involved into climate activism like I.
It kind of developed on the side all the time.
But when I came back from CERN, I had one professor, which I was working with in this like research group in my hometown university,
what I was talking about, and he was part of the scientist for future team and in my university, and I asked him whether I could get involved.
And during this whole time of the application and stuff, I was more and more involved into this like climate community.
So we were thinking about starting something where we can advise local policy makers for like how to build cities more sustainably.
We started like a poster of, Yeah, a poster.
How would you call that? Did you did you find that practical experience at that level?
Did that give you a different sense of confidence than when you started trying to shift your academic work in that direction as well?
It did. So I think it was actually start like the reason why I shifted it was because I realised like,
this is a problem that I really see that we have to start working on and it's very, really urgent and it's really real world.
And I was like, I really want to I want to contribute in solving this issue also,
because I think the more I got involved in it, the more I realised how bad the situation is.
And I think I'm always saying this as a joke, but I think it's there's some truth in that.
It's kind of a therapy. So I could either read the IPCC and cry or I can read the IPCC and decide to start acting on those things.
So yeah, I think that was the reason why I then said, okay, I want to do something into this like direction in general.
But I had no, I have no idea how.
Yeah. And I think what happened was it was actually quite funny.
I was on a cycling tour and I was I was cycling.
I think I was just cycling into the city, but I was having my headphones and that habit never do it.
It's not recommended. It was exactly what I was listening to a podcast and in this podcast I mentioned Frederico ATU,
which is a professor who is a was a professor at Oxford,
now is a professor at Imperial, and she's doing or started something which is called the World Weather Attribution Project.
And what they're trying to do is to understand how much humans or human action has influenced certain extreme weather events.
So like the probability of a certain event occurring in a climate which would have not
been influenced by humans and a climate with human induced greenhouse gas emissions,
and how that would change the probabilities. And she's a theoretical physicist, and I was like, This is fascinating.
First of all, her research is fascinating, but also the fact that she was a theoretical physicist kind of got me into like,
Hey, there's like a world of that where you can be a physicist,
maybe not so much doing physics anymore, but still doing something, math and physics related,
and you could actually like work on that and like apply your skills and in the way that are actually useful directly.
So you found a bit of a role model? Exactly. So I was and I figured out that she was an Oxford.
I literally just heard her name and what she was doing. And then I started my own research, like, what is she actually doing?
Whereas yeah, exactly. And I figured out she's an Oxford, and I was like, Hey, I'm going for like cars in Oxford.
I will do something completely different. Yeah, but I mean, it's the same university.
There has to be a chance of, like, writing an email.
So I wrote her over here. Yes. Right. Yeah.
So, so like, I wrote an email being like, Hey, I really, really love your research.
It's so interesting, by the way, I'm starting a cause.
It's like in physics and math, it's not really related to any environmental stuff, but do you know that courses which I can take,
which are more environmental related and do you think I could write to you, get in with your heroes for doing it?
You're going to be sent an email response and offers, and I got to respond.
I still remember that that day when I was like getting the response.
I was sitting there like. She actually wrote to me about that.
I didn't see that coming at all. But see, I asked her whether I could do a massive thesis with her,
which didn't work out in the end because the maths department was not happy in trying to do a do a thesis in like math and physics course,
which is not market physics. Yeah, it did not work.
But yeah, so I'm going to devote this.
I did get an email to raise funds. And yeah, that kind of got me into.
Into switching into like environmental science and stuff.
So I stayed in the department, so her department, so she was in the side by then, which is the Environmental Change Institute.
And so, yeah, I started working in the Environmental Change Institute for a year after I finished my master's degree.
Is also working on food, actually. So you did this year, then you had a year of working at the Institute?
Exactly. And then I started my dphil, and I'm in the first year, so that's how my journey went.
But that's how I ended up in environmental science more broadly.
And food was basically because I worked in food research for that.
Like it was modelling. Yeah. So I think that was the reason why I was asked to do this job, because they were like, Hey,
you know how to model and it's food related, but you don't actually need to know anything about food.
It's more about like actually building the model.
You need to have this like more coding and understanding more skills and not so much dough food system skills.
But that kind of got me into this like Whole Foods sphere and it introduced me to my now supervisor, my Dphil Yeah,
so there's a little moment that we skipped over, which is your moment of coming to Oxford and coming to the UK.
So you're German, you grew up in Germany, you grow up in mountains.
Yes. Which is also where you went to university. Yes. So how did it feel for you coming in?
It was quite an experience,
but I think it was a very different experience for like maybe normal times or
compared to normal times just because it was in the middle of COVID you arrived in.
Exactly. So I was it's not normal time. I know.
I remember getting here and I was like, So first of all, getting here was it was a journey, right?
I tried to not fly just because of environmental concerns.
So do you have the idea of like, how do I get to the UK without like, the thing is, like when you came from certain countries,
you would need to quarantine a lot depending on like where you travelled to and stuff like that.
So I remember I had to check because my mum, she drove me with her car to Oxford so that I could take some more stuff with me and don't have to fly.
But the funny thing was we drove to France and I was like,
If France has like too many COVID cases and you have to quarantine when you come from France,
even though you don't have to quarantine when you come from Germany, I might still need to quarantine.
So it was like they have that to the very last minute.
I was like really afraid of that.
But then I moved into a big house, which was actually Queen's accommodation with ten other students, most of them students and students in one house.
Yes, but to me it's student experience. To be honest, it was great.
I was so grateful because I feel if I would have not lived in a big house, I would have been lonely.
So lonely because everything was lockdown.
Like there was no chance of going into the department. All my lectures were online.
There was no like organised group activities, nothing.
I mean, even the college was very cautious about, Yeah,
members of our communities which are either having like a greater risk of having a serious COVID case or also we have some families living on site.
So they were also trying to protect those families, right.
Sort of college was very restrictive and who they let in on the ground and what kind of activities can take place.
And I was so lucky because my household was so big that we could actually spend a lot of time together.
So I think that also brought us quite close just because, I mean,
if you're lockdown together and you're hanging out in the kitchen every single evening or go to we had an enormous garden, which was great.
So you go to the garden or you do sports in the morning together.
We went on runs together and stuff like that. You had a good set up. Yeah, that was good.
Just like, honestly, the best thing that could have happened to me.
So I was super happy about that. And then academically,
What was your experience like of settling in here and how does that experience differ to the experience of your hometown university?
I think also that might be quite, I guess, hindered also.
Yeah, it was in the part of the social aspect of the university.
I think that was so I feel like I had no interaction with Michael, like I had some interaction with my cohort, but very, very little.
I knew like four or five people out of my whole card and we did like sometimes work on exercise sheets together via Zoom,
which was more or less working because you can't really see what other people write.
No one of us had the set up to actually like stream.
I don't know. They're writing on an iPad while I have like a set up where you can actually see them and talk to them and stuff like that.
So it was really hard to like work together as you would normally do.
I remember just before the exams when it was already getting a bit better in terms of like COVID restrictions.
We would meet in some of the cafes in Oxford City Centre and sit outside on a table like pouring rain,
and we would sit under this like very small umbrella,
not trying to not get out of like sheets of paper completely soaked such that you can read nothing any more.
But it was, yeah, it was quite sad because after I finished my last exams and I mean I think we were also quite conscious before
the exams because no one wanted to get COVID right before the exams because that would have screwed everything.
But after the exams we kind of all met together and that's when I actually got to know my cohort.
And there were such lovely people and I was like, This is so sad.
I could have had such an amazing time with you guys, and I just didn't know you at all, which is so sad.
And now do you feel like you've developed a good social circle and.
Yes, yeah, Yes, I feel like now it's very different, right?
Because with my Dphil cohort and first of all, my department is doing an amazing job for us to get to know each other.
So that very like supportive in a sense that we for example,
I have coffee mornings every week and in those coffee mornings they kind of sponsor
us that we have like some snacks and coffee and then the details just meet and
talk and everyone can like express their thoughts and like their current problems
and what they're enjoying doing and what their plans are and stuff like that.
So it's kind of a support group which is really nice.
And also after I finished my Masters and I started doing the research job here, I actually got to know more people from the college.
And then I, I just love the college community.
Like, yeah, students are lovely, staff is lovely people.
Like I feel it's a very welcoming and accepting community as well.
So I feel like I can be myself, which is great.
That's very nice. And I know you live off site as well, right?
So it's great that you still feel that sense of community and collegiality even though you're living elsewhere.
Yeah, that's true. I'm still living with the people that I left for for my first year.
Really In the. Yes. Ten person house. Exactly. So not all of them.
Not all of that. Some of them finished right.
The Masters students left and some were like, I don't know, like they basically did their own thing quite a lot, but they like the core people.
One of them unfortunately graduated. What means? Unfortunately, he graduated.
I'm very proud of him. Yeah, exactly. But the rest of us are still around and we're living together still so great.
And what's your kind of what's your routine with what's and like, how often do you come in?
What do you do when you come here. Mhm. What's your college life like.
Okay. That's actually a good question. I mean it really depends.
I feel like it has gotten even more intense now,
but I feel like I'm often getting in in the mornings that I sometimes go to the gym, sometimes a lot of the day.
And I work often in the cafe which is lovely,
drink some nice cappuccino with milk and do some work so you give yourself some treatment doing during working time.
And yeah, I often go to the at the common room as well.
I don't actually go to the library that often. And then after that I have like a lot of like other stuff going on.
So I'm going to some dancing society staff or I'm singing in a choir.
But sometimes I play with the music society here.
So we did some gigs or like for example, now with the ball we played at the ball or I'm,
I don't know, like I'm lately I'm in a lot of meetings actually with the college governance.
Yeah. Which is also very interesting to see to like see.
All those things that you experience as a student come into play and how they're planned.
Well, let's talk through that a little bit because. I think that's something that comes up a lot, right?
Like, I think people naturally have feelings and opinions about what goes on in their college
environment and don't necessarily know that they can get involved and have a say in that.
That's true. So what was your. So you mentioned Freddie.
Told you about the catering position, and then you've also got involved in general meeting.
Yes. So what was your experience about?
So first of all, I mean, I had my first general meeting yesterday, actually, and it was very, very interesting.
I'm not sure if I got your question correctly. Do you want to know, like how I got into that more or do I think like how you got into it?
But also what sparked your feeling that you wanted to get into it?
I think for me it's always like when I see something which I would like to improve or like where I have an idea of what you could do.
I'm always like, I can't complain without at least trying to change it.
So I think that was driving me to do this. And that's the same attitude that seems to have got you involved in food systems as well.
Yeah, exactly. It's always the same. It's always like I'm feeling responsible for doing something.
And I mean, knowing Freddie helped a lot, right? Because I knew someone who was already doing this and who knew who to speak to.
And I mean, generally those positions get advertised through the college.
So it's not something where you have to know someone,
but it's more like he made me aware of that because we get letters from the college which are telling you,
okay, those are the events happening, those are the positions here.
We need some student representative here, We need some help here. You can have your say, maybe a survey or something.
But often because you get so many emails, they just get lost somewhere and you don't read them thoughtfully, as you should.
So I feel like it helped me quite a lot to just see that the opportunities are there.
And then I just yeah, I just applied basically.
So. And what is it that you want to impact or change within the college?
So there are several things which I think I would like to act on.
So one of the things is like, as you mentioned, I'm not living on college side and I've never lived on college side.
And I feel sometimes there's quite a divide between students who live in college and students who don't live in college.
So, for example, I've got some people in my cohort who are actually Wharton students but who never come in.
I can never see them. And one of the reasons because they're never coming in is because they just don't live in college.
And this is an effort for them to come in because it's quite far north.
I mean, at quotation marks, it's like, yeah, exactly.
The thing is like it's not that far out, but in Oxford, in the grand scheme of things, you can cycle across it in 15 minutes.
Sorry, I'm cycling in from the other end of the city in 25 minutes in the morning.
It's okay. And I'm a very slow cyclist. A cyclist?
No know, but I feel like. Like you have a reason to come here or you need a reason to come here.
And sometimes it's also like just practical things. Like for example,
we're now trying to advertise that there are lockers available for students so
that people who don't come in every day have the opportunity to lock some stuff.
And if you're like, for example, playing tennis and you want your racket to be stored in college because you
don't want to take your racket home every single time you want to play tennis,
it makes some sense to just store it in college and keep it here or have a spare set of clothes.
If the rain is starting again and you get soaked on you on your cycle here, which happens to me quite often.
So things like this that you like have a more in the know that like them both students communities you've got like people
living inside and people living outside like growing together more and that there's more exchange between those two worlds.
So that's something that I would like to achieve. I think the second thing what I'm really passionate about is food.
I'm trying to you're working quite closely with Michael, who's our head chef.
Exactly. And I would like to improve on sustainability and vegan and vegetarian food.
Not so much the taste.
I think we just run a survey and I mean, I can talk about the results so too much now because they're not officially released yet,
but I feel like people in general weren't too, like too unhappy about the food.
So it seems like in general people are quite happy about it.
But there are still some things that you could do to like, improve to take up on vegan and vegetarian food,
especially since the college has a sustainability strategy and they want to be like or they want to reach net zero this like this year.
So I feel like having a yeah, going alongside with a well thought through food and catering related strategy would actually be just natural.
And I mean, it's hard because you don't want to force anyone to eat vegan, vegan or vegetarian.
I think it's more like actually increasing the visibility and like trying to.
Like raise awareness. What are the consequences if you eat meat and dairy products?
Maybe I should mention that I'm vegan myself, just that there's like no confusion about that.
But so yeah, we're talking about maybe also one of the questions, for example, in the survey was,
is it okay for students of members of the college in general to have, for example, a meat free day each week,
just that you have like one day a week where you just have more vegetarian vegan options but no meat,
and maybe that makes you discover your new favourite dish, which is kind of lonely with spinach and halloumi cheese, whatever.
Like, I don't know if this actually goes well together.
But the thing is, like, Ed, maybe, maybe you would like, find something else that you like which does not have meat but is still tasty.
So yeah, it's about that. I'm trying to push for like more sustainability in that respect.
So outside of college life then, and thinking about your current academic career and where you might want to go next and also in your personal life,
what are you dreaming of right now? What I'm dreaming of in like academic terms?
I mean, finishing this dphil this is a dream.
The big finish date year at least. I do know like, I mean, you start out by saying three years, but then nearly everyone I know is doing four.
You know, I'm not sure I should go for I don't know.
But at some point in time I would like to finish it not too far ahead.
And as for the longer run, I'm actually quite unsure.
Currently, I would like to am torn between two things.
I really like academia, but then I'm also like, where can I have the biggest impact?
And I might actually like to go somewhere where I can have like more direct policy impact.
So I don't know, being in a in a big organisation like the FAO or the UN or the W.H.O. or something like that,
where you can actually like work on real life problems and not just the academic side would be nice,
or being an academic advisor for something like that would be something that I would be interested in because I feel like,
yeah, I would like to apply my research in a way that is useful in a practical way.
Yeah, that would be nice. And where is there anywhere specific in the world that you see yourself doing that?
That's a good question because I'm not a person who's going on fieldwork,
which is very sad, and models and models are not necessarily needing you to go elsewhere.
And there are a lot of people in my world who are like going to all different kind of places from South Africa to Indonesia to Australia, everywhere.
I don't know. I think it's more a question of where the opportunity opens up and what the specific circumstances are,
because currently I wouldn't be like I think I would be happy everywhere with like, I don't know.
So I think it really depends on how long I would stay there and what the like situation would be in general.
Because I think one thing that I realised living abroad is that one thing, the only thing basically for me,
which makes me a lot sad, is that you're not seeing your family and friends home that often.
And I'm very like, I'm a big family person, so I really love my sister, I really love my parents, my grandparents, like my cousins.
It's it's really nice to have them around me and it's so sad that I see them now much less frequently than I used to.
And living abroad, especially if it's overseas in the sense that you're going to the US or to Asia or Africa,
that you actually have long distances to travel.
The pandemic kind of also showed me that it's sometimes it can really be not just a six or seven hour flight,
it can be in like, yeah, a real border in a sense, if you can't transport.
And I mean, I'm so lucky because I've got a German passport I can get into most countries in this world rather easily.
But I have friends who are from very different countries and for them,
just going to Europe is now a hassle because their visa is telling them you can go to
the UK and the UK only and I feel this is something that you shouldn't just ignore.
So I would be open to go everywhere, but I would really need to have a think about it before I go.
Yeah. No, I agree I. I think that's very important. You've got to think about where you're.
Where you feel most grounded, I think. Yes. Yeah. Well, here's to seeing more family and close friends in the future, then.
Yeah. Let's see. Maybe I can convince them to come here. Yeah, I think so.
Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah, it's great to have you.
Hope I didn't talk too much.