1 00:00:00,610 --> 00:00:15,640 The Good Nature podcast comes to you from conservation optimism and its founding partners simply see Earth and giving the best Rocksmith. 2 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:21,730 Welcome to Good-Natured podcast, where you can join us for uplifting chats that shine a light on conservation challenges. 3 00:00:21,730 --> 00:00:25,620 In each episode, we interview an inspiring conservationist. 4 00:00:25,620 --> 00:00:31,960 A fascinating guest come from many backgrounds, artists, scientists, activists and many more. 5 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:39,910 I'm Sophia APHC student focussing on marine conservation. I love doing science and telling stories through film writing, improvised comedy. 6 00:00:39,910 --> 00:00:44,660 And now. And I'm Julia, a science communicator and journalist. 7 00:00:44,660 --> 00:00:56,630 I'm passionate about sharing what people are doing to make the world a better place. Today, we're failed to have with us Jesse Panopto Zolo, 8 00:00:56,630 --> 00:01:02,120 an Australian young conservationist who started an online community called Lonely Conservationists, 9 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:08,540 and the goal of this community was to bring together young and struggling conservationists to share their stories. 10 00:01:08,540 --> 00:01:15,920 I think it's gonna be great to talk to Jesse because she does a really great job of acknowledging some of the difficulties within conservation. 11 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:22,130 And she considers conservationists to be just about anyone who cares about issues in conservation. 12 00:01:22,130 --> 00:01:30,230 But for her personally, after years of hurdles, trying to start up a career in conservation to get a job, she found she was really struggling. 13 00:01:30,230 --> 00:01:39,470 So she decided to form the support of community where other conservationists could share their own stories of struggle, of loneliness, of difficulty. 14 00:01:39,470 --> 00:01:44,870 And one thing that is really interesting as well is that the community really grew quite quickly and quite organically. 15 00:01:44,870 --> 00:01:49,250 So she's got people from all over the world joining the community to share their stories. 16 00:01:49,250 --> 00:01:54,800 And I think in a way that really shows that there is a space in conservation for 17 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,420 talking about mental health issues or just struggle and failure in general. 18 00:01:59,420 --> 00:02:06,650 That is just not there. So I think that's what made it so powerful and so enticing for people to share their stories on there. 19 00:02:06,650 --> 00:02:14,960 She takes a really positive view on it in terms of having this catharsis and this ability to share these difficult stories. 20 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:21,830 Actually, that means that people feel better and feel accompanied and can maybe have more energy to do other things. 21 00:02:21,830 --> 00:02:25,820 And we also really interested to hear a bit more about what Jesse things about 22 00:02:25,820 --> 00:02:30,360 the feeling of guilt and pressure that exist in the conservation sector. 23 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,810 This idea that you have to be perfect if you're a conservationist, you need to save the planet every single day. 24 00:02:35,810 --> 00:02:40,850 And so I think she'll probably have a really interesting perspective on these issues. 25 00:02:40,850 --> 00:02:54,350 Absolutely. Well, let's get talking to her. Hi, Jesse, we're so excited to have you on the podcast today and start the episode. 26 00:02:54,350 --> 00:03:00,260 I was wondering if you could tell us a bit more about your background and also what led you to start learning conservationists? 27 00:03:00,260 --> 00:03:06,050 Sure. Well, I have been passionate about nature and the natural world since I was three 28 00:03:06,050 --> 00:03:10,280 years old when my mom came back from Canada and handed me a stuffed toy gorilla, 29 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:15,110 which may seem ridiculous to bring a gorilla toy back from Canada. But that's what happened. 30 00:03:15,110 --> 00:03:21,230 And it sparked this lifelong obsession with animals and primates, especially great apes. 31 00:03:21,230 --> 00:03:28,160 And when I was five years old, I asked my mom and my mom's friend, who is the mom, how can I save the orang-utans? 32 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,510 And that's when I realised that adults actually didn't have the answers to everything. 33 00:03:32,510 --> 00:03:37,640 And I kind of went on this lifelong quest to find out myself how I could save the orang-utans. 34 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,840 But then I ended up when I was 24, I was doing my honours degree in North Sumatra, 35 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,460 working with the top orang-utan scientist and conservationist in the area. 36 00:03:46,460 --> 00:03:55,070 And I looked around at the reforestation site and I saw all the mothers with the children planting in the nurseries, 37 00:03:55,070 --> 00:03:58,970 and I saw their husbands watering the plants and growing the forest. 38 00:03:58,970 --> 00:04:04,130 And I realised that as long as I was a Western woman coming in from another country, 39 00:04:04,130 --> 00:04:12,170 that I could never be a part of that long term, sustainable behavioural change needed to actually conserve the rainforest habitat. 40 00:04:12,170 --> 00:04:18,440 And thus the orang-utans. And so I went back to Australia and tried to find conservation jobs here. 41 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:26,270 But every job, it was like Groundhog Day. I always faced professional bullying, low wages, really remote locations. 42 00:04:26,270 --> 00:04:31,250 And I noticed that all throughout my conservation career, it was the same. 43 00:04:31,250 --> 00:04:35,660 It was so hard to get a job. And when you did, the conditions were so lacking. 44 00:04:35,660 --> 00:04:43,010 So I decided for my New Year's resolution in 2019, I was going to pick a reputable Australian NGO. 45 00:04:43,010 --> 00:04:47,840 I was gonna volunteer there as if I had a full time job and I was going to really 46 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:53,540 put in a lot of time and effort in volunteering until I actually got a job. 47 00:04:53,540 --> 00:04:58,280 But it turned out that as long as I was working for free, they were never going to hire me. 48 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:05,030 So my friend. He hates me saying this, but I felt like he was giving me an intervention when he explained this to me. 49 00:05:05,030 --> 00:05:10,130 And I thought my future and my life in the conservation industry was over. 50 00:05:10,130 --> 00:05:14,000 And then I was moping on the couch because I decided that's it. 51 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,380 I'm not going to work for this organisation anymore. There's just no future for me. 52 00:05:18,380 --> 00:05:26,090 And my friend from Spain actually message me saying that she was having issues with visas and she was feeling frustrated with the industry, too. 53 00:05:26,090 --> 00:05:31,190 And for the first time in my life, I wondered how many other conservationists could relate to me. 54 00:05:31,190 --> 00:05:35,590 And so I got up, I went to my desk and I started the Blokland. 55 00:05:35,590 --> 00:05:42,890 Conservation is where I told my authentic story of how I was feeling in the industry with the call out that if anybody felt the same, 56 00:05:42,890 --> 00:05:45,140 they should submit this story alongside mine. 57 00:05:45,140 --> 00:05:53,140 And now today, about 19 months later, we have a community which hit 4000 land conservationist last night, which was really exciting. 58 00:05:53,140 --> 00:05:57,770 And we have about 80 blogs submitted alongside one of global conservationists. 59 00:05:57,770 --> 00:06:06,110 So, yeah, it just was a way larger need than I ever thought, considering I thought I was going through all of this all on my own. 60 00:06:06,110 --> 00:06:11,330 That's amazing. I'm interested to hear more about the named Lowney Conservationist. 61 00:06:11,330 --> 00:06:17,510 I feel like so often people think of loneliness as an individual problem, something that they have to deal with by themselves, 62 00:06:17,510 --> 00:06:21,770 but sad circumstances like a pandemic or like the difficult job market that you were 63 00:06:21,770 --> 00:06:27,170 talking about can mean a lot of people actually experience loneliness at the same time. 64 00:06:27,170 --> 00:06:34,300 What have you learnt about loneliness for more of the blogs and testimonies that you've received from Different Conservationist's? 65 00:06:34,300 --> 00:06:35,770 It's interesting in the pandemic, 66 00:06:35,770 --> 00:06:44,200 because it's interesting to see how people connect and experience exactly what you're saying, like a loneliness together. 67 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:51,220 When I created Learning Conservationist's, I created it out of feeling that I was the loneliest person, 68 00:06:51,220 --> 00:06:59,440 that the loneliest conservationist that I could think of. I couldn't conceive that so many other people were sharing this loneliness with me. 69 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:06,970 So now it's really interesting to have a community of over 4000 people that all come together with that shared loneliness. 70 00:07:06,970 --> 00:07:11,140 But I think because conservationists work in such remote areas, 71 00:07:11,140 --> 00:07:18,670 even if loneliness is shared by others in the physical space, it just seems like we're so isolated, 72 00:07:18,670 --> 00:07:24,430 especially if we have bosses or mentors that are not very nice or there's cultural isolation 73 00:07:24,430 --> 00:07:30,130 and people who we can't understand around us with customs that maybe don't make sense to us. 74 00:07:30,130 --> 00:07:37,660 Even knowing that there's other people out there experiencing the same thing in the moment may not make it easier to experience. 75 00:07:37,660 --> 00:07:42,910 So I think what the pandemic has showed us is that if we can come together, 76 00:07:42,910 --> 00:07:51,620 despite how lonely we are in a physical sense, it can make it easier to deal with those feelings of loneliness. 77 00:07:51,620 --> 00:07:57,220 And I think I'm really thankful that I created lonely conservationists before the pandemic, 78 00:07:57,220 --> 00:08:00,430 because now since the pandemic and we've all been isolated, 79 00:08:00,430 --> 00:08:06,850 we've all been out of connect over a digital space, whether it be via Zoom or the blogs or via social media. 80 00:08:06,850 --> 00:08:17,290 So I feel like trying to regain that connectivity can really help with the feelings of loneliness we experience from a systematic problem. 81 00:08:17,290 --> 00:08:24,070 I mean, I can't be expected to solve big global issues of how conservationists are treated worldwide, 82 00:08:24,070 --> 00:08:31,330 but I can help create a community that at least knows that they're not alone when they experience the issues faced by the system. 83 00:08:31,330 --> 00:08:38,110 I love what you said about being the loneliest conservationist. I think that we can all feel that way sometimes when you're feeling lonely. 84 00:08:38,110 --> 00:08:44,800 It feels like you are the only lonely person in the world and everyone else is like best friends, having the best time. 85 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,580 So I think there is a real relief in recognising that you're not alone. 86 00:08:48,580 --> 00:08:55,480 Right. And the other people are kind of sharing these issues. It's true that that no one can solve these larger systemic issues. 87 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:00,460 But I do feel like there's a sense of power and kind of momentum in at least knowing that 88 00:09:00,460 --> 00:09:05,410 there are others around that that could maybe help start to address things in a larger way. 89 00:09:05,410 --> 00:09:12,250 Yeah. And I really think that because of the glorification and glamorisation of the conservation industry on social media, 90 00:09:12,250 --> 00:09:18,430 I feel that that really contributes to how everybody perceives what the industry is like from the outside. 91 00:09:18,430 --> 00:09:21,820 And it's interesting because when I've had articles released about Leweni 92 00:09:21,820 --> 00:09:26,020 conservationists and they've been accessible to the wider media or the wider public. 93 00:09:26,020 --> 00:09:32,920 People have commented saying I had no idea that Conservation's conservationists even experienced anything like this, 94 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:40,090 because I think we feel like there's so much pressure to be perfect to get the couple of jobs that there are. 95 00:09:40,090 --> 00:09:46,750 Nobody talks about the downfalls or their failures or the way that life is hard because we want to be the most resilient, 96 00:09:46,750 --> 00:09:50,620 perfect candidate for whatever few jobs are available. 97 00:09:50,620 --> 00:09:57,670 So I think that by me naming it, it made it really accessible for others to start naming it like, oh, it's okay. 98 00:09:57,670 --> 00:10:01,900 Nothing happened to her because she told her story. Maybe I can chime in. 99 00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:07,130 And it's really interesting to see how people submit similar stories because they're like hard. 100 00:10:07,130 --> 00:10:12,810 That person story was really like mine. Therefore, it's safe enough for me to come forth and tell my story. 101 00:10:12,810 --> 00:10:20,320 Nothing bad is gonna happen. But I think the most rewarding thing that has come from land conservationists is actually from a girl in the UK. 102 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,730 She went to a job interview and she broke down halfway through the interview, 103 00:10:24,730 --> 00:10:29,080 whether it be from stress or pressure or climate anxiety or the state of the world. 104 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:38,110 And her employee that was actually hiring her reassure her that everything was okay and that there was a group of people who felt exactly like her, 105 00:10:38,110 --> 00:10:41,860 who they directed her to and then ended up hiring her for the position. 106 00:10:41,860 --> 00:10:49,270 So I think if more people are aware of the pressures that people are going through and they are empathetic and understanding to the situation, 107 00:10:49,270 --> 00:10:52,240 then only good can come from the situation. That's amazing. 108 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:57,880 And I think really there is so much power in creating these spaces where people can share their stories. 109 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:03,010 And actually that links to something else that I think conservationists experience as well, 110 00:11:03,010 --> 00:11:08,650 which is this idea that you have to be walking the walk in your day to day life as well. 111 00:11:08,650 --> 00:11:12,340 You have to be perfect. You have to avoid plastic. You have to fly less. 112 00:11:12,340 --> 00:11:18,730 And having to save the planet every single day can end up being obviously quite a heavy burden to carry. 113 00:11:18,730 --> 00:11:23,380 So I was wondering if you also had, from all these testimonies and experiences, 114 00:11:23,380 --> 00:11:29,410 some tools that conservationists can use to fight this perfectionism in it and the guilt that comes with it. 115 00:11:29,410 --> 00:11:33,390 Actually, I created a new tool for this yesterday after. 116 00:11:33,390 --> 00:11:41,460 Look at a panel on failure. And it was really interesting to do workshops and talk about how we fail and to normalise that, 117 00:11:41,460 --> 00:11:48,330 because I think of celebrating our failures really give rise to combating both imposter syndrome and perfectionism. 118 00:11:48,330 --> 00:11:53,460 So just yesterday, I established on my Web site a failure wall so lonely conservationist's can come 119 00:11:53,460 --> 00:11:57,510 forth with their failures and what they've learnt from and grown from them. 120 00:11:57,510 --> 00:12:00,630 And so we can celebrate the ways that we've messed up, 121 00:12:00,630 --> 00:12:09,900 but how that was an opportunity to learn and grow and and do better, more improved things into the future. 122 00:12:09,900 --> 00:12:15,660 And for instance, like, I wouldn't have this amazing community of global conservationists if I didn't 123 00:12:15,660 --> 00:12:19,860 fail at getting a job in the conservation industry for 26 years of my life. 124 00:12:19,860 --> 00:12:27,000 The fact that I failed so much made me have this wonderful future and feeling like I have my 125 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,400 purpose and my drive of transitioning from a conservationist to a conservationist conservationist. 126 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:38,460 And I really think that we should be shedding the light and celebrating the times that things didn't really go as planned, 127 00:12:38,460 --> 00:12:44,790 because often they are the wonderful learning and growth opportunities that we experience in our lives. 128 00:12:44,790 --> 00:12:48,000 I completely agree with that. I think that so often in conservation, 129 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:54,690 there are all of these failures as like your fieldwork plans or your experiments don't go the way that you wanted, 130 00:12:54,690 --> 00:12:59,850 and then you just have to kind of like realise that maybe you didn't come out the problem in the right way. 131 00:12:59,850 --> 00:13:05,550 And you need to kind of regear to figure out what to do next or or to learn from it. 132 00:13:05,550 --> 00:13:09,930 Supporting other conservationists might take a toll on your own mental health. 133 00:13:09,930 --> 00:13:15,120 What has it been like for you to do this project? And what are some of the coping mechanisms you use to keep going? 134 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,760 I created this because I felt like I was a failing, lonely conservationist. 135 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,880 So still today I just have the experiences of anybody else in my community. 136 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:31,170 It's like the blind leading the blind. So I think it's been an experience because I, I think by accident, 137 00:13:31,170 --> 00:13:36,630 I've done a lot in trying to establish and grow this community because I've seen a huge need for it. 138 00:13:36,630 --> 00:13:45,090 But I think there's the imposter syndrome that I'm just a conservationist and that I'm not any different from the people in my community. 139 00:13:45,090 --> 00:13:48,030 But by running the community and by developing it, 140 00:13:48,030 --> 00:13:53,660 I have actually accumulated all of these skills that are really impressive to people that I talk with. 141 00:13:53,660 --> 00:14:04,410 So I think more so. It's interesting just feeling the same as everybody, but expected to step up and lead and that is challenging. 142 00:14:04,410 --> 00:14:08,010 And the way that I do that is just I'm really honest with people. 143 00:14:08,010 --> 00:14:13,980 And that's actually been a huge hope in the community where I went to a conference last year and I was 144 00:14:13,980 --> 00:14:20,040 really scared of going to a workshop because it was about something that I didn't know anything about. 145 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,370 But I chose to go to the workshop because I didn't know anything about it. 146 00:14:23,370 --> 00:14:28,290 And I wanted to learn more. And instead of it being a lecture and something I could passively take in. 147 00:14:28,290 --> 00:14:29,760 I knew that I had to be involved. 148 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:37,950 And there's always that fear that people will know that you've never done this before or a fear that you'll be a huge embarrassment or something. 149 00:14:37,950 --> 00:14:42,450 But by talking about the fact that I was scared in this situation, but I did it anyway, 150 00:14:42,450 --> 00:14:50,070 or if I failed at fieldwork or if I was feeling really sad or overwhelmed, I would always talk about this on social media. 151 00:14:50,070 --> 00:14:55,290 And I got a lot of positive compliments from my community saying thank you for being human. 152 00:14:55,290 --> 00:15:03,060 And every time I talk about a way that I am struggling, another conservationist can relate to that and they feel less alone. 153 00:15:03,060 --> 00:15:10,260 So now I feel like if I am doing it tough and I share it, I feel like I'm actually helping them more. 154 00:15:10,260 --> 00:15:18,150 So it's kind of turned my like the failure will it's kind of turned the times that I'm not doing well into real learning 155 00:15:18,150 --> 00:15:24,750 and growth opportunities and opportunities to make other conservationists feel not that alone in their struggles either. 156 00:15:24,750 --> 00:15:32,130 But I think the hardest thing for me has actually been when I talk to people and they're like, oh, you actually do have all these skills. 157 00:15:32,130 --> 00:15:39,150 I can a professional sense. And I just I feel like maybe I could have achieved more if I acknowledge them instead of just seeing 158 00:15:39,150 --> 00:15:43,620 myself as just the saddler and the conservationists that was on the couch when I created this, 159 00:15:43,620 --> 00:15:50,330 because I don't think I'm that person anymore. I've seen various posts where you're very transparent and I agree, 160 00:15:50,330 --> 00:15:54,620 I think it makes the community even more of a safe place because you know that the 161 00:15:54,620 --> 00:15:59,720 person who created it as well is sharing the struggle and sharing the challenges. 162 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,560 And I think that makes a massive difference for sure. 163 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:10,550 And I think it's just interesting to see how people expect to be the loneliest and the worst person and they beat themselves up. 164 00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:16,370 So much for that perfectionism. It's so shocking and enlightening to see somebody else be like that. 165 00:16:16,370 --> 00:16:24,410 But from my perspective, I would feel really bad if I was just exploiting everyone, making them tell me their deepest, darkest concerns and stories. 166 00:16:24,410 --> 00:16:26,440 And then I was just like profiting from that. 167 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:33,320 So I feel like I owe it to the people in my community to give them what they give me and to show that vulnerability back. 168 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:40,220 That makes a lot of sense in terms of what your community looks like, what kind of conservationists are in it. 169 00:16:40,220 --> 00:16:45,530 I think it's important for me to talk about my perception of what a conservationist is, 170 00:16:45,530 --> 00:16:50,960 because in my experience with the term conservationists is not like neurosurgeon, 171 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:57,680 where you wouldn't want somebody without neurosurgeon qualifications to be performing surgery on you. 172 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:05,060 But I feel like if you are a lawyer and you use a keep cup and you recycle the paper in your office and you make 173 00:17:05,060 --> 00:17:12,020 sure that the recycling bins and the compost bins are in order and you're making an effort to conserve wildlife, 174 00:17:12,020 --> 00:17:15,050 conserve resources. I would say that they were a conservationist. 175 00:17:15,050 --> 00:17:20,270 I would say if you're a mom at home and you've made a lot of zero waste transitions around the household, 176 00:17:20,270 --> 00:17:24,230 you're educating your kids about the natural world. I would say there are conservationists. 177 00:17:24,230 --> 00:17:30,890 So the people in my community are everything from students to professionals to people who just do citizen science or who 178 00:17:30,890 --> 00:17:38,720 are in a totally different career but are practising these conservationists mindset behaviours in their normal life. 179 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:44,570 So I feel like the more people can own the term conservationists and the more we embrace it, 180 00:17:44,570 --> 00:17:48,110 the more we can have such positive energy going through the community. 181 00:17:48,110 --> 00:17:54,410 And people can be proud of the efforts that they are making because it really disturbs me how full 182 00:17:54,410 --> 00:18:00,080 of imposter syndrome and perfectionism that industry is and that the industry propagates as well. 183 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,370 So I feel like if we just start celebrating the efforts that we do, 184 00:18:04,370 --> 00:18:13,490 then people will feel more comfortable and more confident in celebrating any actions they make to better our world, to conserve our environment. 185 00:18:13,490 --> 00:18:17,390 Because I think the small little impacts that we have. 186 00:18:17,390 --> 00:18:22,820 They all add up. Yes. It's definitely something that conservation optimism as a whole as well really believes in. 187 00:18:22,820 --> 00:18:28,820 And we have this idea that everyone can be a conservationist and that we really need to celebrate all these different peoples. 188 00:18:28,820 --> 00:18:33,590 So, yes, it's really nice to hear that definition. I love that definition. 189 00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:41,480 I completely agree. I know you've done a bit of research as well around the lonely conservationist blogs and everything. 190 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:49,940 You want to talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I just think it's really interesting how the scientists in me when I started getting a lot of blogs, 191 00:18:49,940 --> 00:18:53,780 I started to see that this could be a potentially useful dataset to help 192 00:18:53,780 --> 00:18:58,190 conservationists and to kind of get the advice that they didn't know they were giving. 193 00:18:58,190 --> 00:19:06,440 So I was working with someone from the University of Colorado and we're putting together a paper 194 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,930 on looniness and conservationists out of the first 70 blogs that were submitted to the website. 195 00:19:11,930 --> 00:19:18,770 And these blogs are from all different kinds of people, ethnicities, diversity, age groups from all over the world. 196 00:19:18,770 --> 00:19:25,760 So it's not just constricted to maybe studies that you would do locally where I am in Australia or in the UK or America. 197 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,980 So it's a really interesting subset of data. So I looked at three different things I looked at. 198 00:19:30,980 --> 00:19:36,800 What inspires us. What constrains us. And the emotional language that we use and the emotional language. 199 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:43,160 One was really interesting because there's this dichotomy that came up of the two most 200 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:49,400 frequently used words that we use in the blogs were both love and being sad or challenged. 201 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:56,000 So it was interesting to see what I talked about before with how I really was passionate about conservation. 202 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:03,470 I was my lifelong dream, but I kept facing hurdle after hurdle after hurdle that kept coming up in everyone's blogs, that they loved what they did. 203 00:20:03,470 --> 00:20:06,710 They loved the plants. They loved animals. They loved the environment. 204 00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:12,320 But they were so struck with the amount of challenges which led them to feel really sad. 205 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:21,470 So that was so interesting to kind of see my own personal experiences reflected in the data and the stories of the people in my community. 206 00:20:21,470 --> 00:20:26,600 And what I also found super interesting was what inspires us is our own resilience. 207 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:31,100 And that kind of disturbs me in a way, because I feel like we shouldn't have to be so resilient. 208 00:20:31,100 --> 00:20:36,530 But the fact that we think that we have overcome her too, after her to other after hurdle, 209 00:20:36,530 --> 00:20:43,070 and we keep making it time and time again, it makes us believe that we can keep being resilient into the future. 210 00:20:43,070 --> 00:20:50,160 So it was super interesting to take a look at these blog. And to see what came out of them and maybe how this this information, 211 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:59,400 this data could be useful to people in NGO sectors or businesses or companies or even counsellors and how to talk to conservationists in the future, 212 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:08,850 it's interesting to see what conservationists actually want and not just how society is at the moment. 213 00:21:08,850 --> 00:21:13,590 That's super interesting. And I think it is a relationship that you describe between, you know, 214 00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:21,510 resilience and just having already had hurdles and thinking that you can do it again somehow is quite linked to that. 215 00:21:21,510 --> 00:21:29,760 Having this optimistic vision that even though you had hurdles, you still think that you'll you'll be able to face them again and keep moving on. 216 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:35,360 And I'm just wondering what makes you personally optimistic about the future of nature? 217 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:43,200 I'm optimistic because of the amazing people in my community. There's so many people who are so passionate about a diverse array of things. 218 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:48,420 There might be somebody that's life is devoted to this one small species of ant, 219 00:21:48,420 --> 00:21:54,600 and they will sacrifice their hours in their sleep and their food and everything for this one species of end. 220 00:21:54,600 --> 00:22:00,660 And I just feel like this commitment that we all have to nature all conservationists, it's like we're born with it. 221 00:22:00,660 --> 00:22:03,720 It's like the passion is in our blood and there's no getting rid of that. 222 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:10,410 And I think that's why companies like to exploit us so much is because we will do anything to protect our planet. 223 00:22:10,410 --> 00:22:16,740 And I think that is just so inspiring that maybe for every aspect of the natural world, 224 00:22:16,740 --> 00:22:22,230 there's just somebody out there that's been so fascinated and encapsulated and just drawn in by it. 225 00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:27,810 And maybe there's one obscure plant that nobody's heard of before has given somebody a whole life meaning. 226 00:22:27,810 --> 00:22:36,630 And I just think that as long as we have such passionate people in the world, then there must be some hope for it. 227 00:22:36,630 --> 00:22:41,130 And that's a beautiful vision. I love it. Absolutely. 228 00:22:41,130 --> 00:22:46,860 It also leads quite well into our next question, which is the question that we ask everyone who comes on the podcast. 229 00:22:46,860 --> 00:22:54,810 So you were talking about how everyone has potentially that kind of obsession with one little part of the natural world. 230 00:22:54,810 --> 00:22:59,400 If you could make a case for one species, what would it be and why? 231 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,560 My case would be for conservationists. 232 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:09,360 Obviously, I just feel like people, especially in the conservation industry, we get a lot of flack for caring about humans. 233 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:15,510 I think humans are the enemy. And we talk about them humans this and like, why did they do that? 234 00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:24,630 But I think that there's such a positive array of beautiful people that are trying really hard to make positive differences in this world. 235 00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:28,860 And my personal belief is that if I can help conserve the conservationists, 236 00:23:28,860 --> 00:23:35,220 then they will in turn conserve all the beautiful plants and animals and landscapes and habitats that we love so much. 237 00:23:35,220 --> 00:23:41,040 So hopefully, I don't know if that's cheating because I don't actually have to go and save every end to plant myself. 238 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:48,390 But I really feel like it's time that the people who are investing so much into these plants and animals that they get some love back. 239 00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:52,740 I love that answer. I do not consider it cheating personally. 240 00:23:52,740 --> 00:23:57,330 No, definitely not. And, you know, it's still quite a big group of people to save. 241 00:23:57,330 --> 00:24:01,470 So I think it's already quite a big job. It's not easy. 242 00:24:01,470 --> 00:24:06,000 I'm not skimping out on the work. Exactly. You've got your work cut out for you. 243 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:12,240 And you've done so much already. And I think that's probably a brilliant note on which to end this episode, actually. 244 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,990 Well, it's been a great opportunity to come on and speak with you as well. 245 00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:24,820 Thank you so much for coming. That was such an interesting discussion, Sophia. 246 00:24:24,820 --> 00:24:33,290 I think it was really interesting to hear about the importance of creating safe spaces because I feel in conservation, failure is something we do. 247 00:24:33,290 --> 00:24:39,910 We talk about even in the scientific world in general, you know, you don't publish a paper about having failed at something. 248 00:24:39,910 --> 00:24:48,070 And so I think having the space to just share the struggles and the failures makes it a really important space for conservationists. 249 00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:53,530 I completely agree. I mean, it seems like it has been a really important thing for a lot of people. 250 00:24:53,530 --> 00:24:57,820 But I think there is a risk to sharing that and to being vulnerable. 251 00:24:57,820 --> 00:25:03,290 And I think it's really cool that people are doing that and being brave in that way to share that. 252 00:25:03,290 --> 00:25:09,370 And I think it really ties in with what she described, as well as this idea of conserving the conservationist, 253 00:25:09,370 --> 00:25:15,520 because it's that that space where mental health issues are not necessarily talked about. 254 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,540 And being a conservationist means everyday you have to wake up trying to save 255 00:25:19,540 --> 00:25:23,320 the planet or see species that are disappearing in front of your own eyes. 256 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:32,860 It can be really daunting. It can be really heavy. And so I think having this space to really be able to talk about all these different things, 257 00:25:32,860 --> 00:25:39,100 which links in a way to the episode with Caroline about Eco and Zayat as well, is incredibly valuable. 258 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:46,060 Completely. And I love her kind of wide definition of conservationist in terms of you are a conservationist if 259 00:25:46,060 --> 00:25:51,910 you care about the natural world and are taking some kind of action within your life to conserve it. 260 00:25:51,910 --> 00:25:54,850 Right. Like, it doesn't have to be a professional thing. 261 00:25:54,850 --> 00:26:00,010 Even if a lot of the issues that she started out trying to address were professionally related. 262 00:26:00,010 --> 00:26:06,820 So I really like this definition of conservationists because it means that it's not only people who go to the field that gets to be a conservationist. 263 00:26:06,820 --> 00:26:11,710 I feel in my sphere of science communication that when I transition initiative, 264 00:26:11,710 --> 00:26:15,720 there was this question in my mind of am I still considered a conservationist? 265 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:21,340 Another, I'm not going to do fieldwork on. Another, I'm not, you know, saving a species. 266 00:26:21,340 --> 00:26:30,580 So I think it's is just interesting to think of the diversity of experiences there are within that term of conservationists because it's just so wide. 267 00:26:30,580 --> 00:26:36,040 So I really like this idea of a lawyer doing everything he can with recycling and making sure that he 268 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:43,030 buys the right thing is is somehow a conservationist because he is making all these different choices. 269 00:26:43,030 --> 00:26:50,440 And I like the fact that that she related that very well in to this idea of perfectionism as well, 270 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,430 that if you if you are especially a conservationist, then you have to be perfect. 271 00:26:54,430 --> 00:27:01,990 You have to walk the walk. But that can be really intense and that can become so much that you end up not being able to make a choice. 272 00:27:01,990 --> 00:27:08,740 You know, you look at this label, but then it's from a different country and you have all these things coming in when you try to buy something. 273 00:27:08,740 --> 00:27:18,370 But I think having this idea that doing something is enough you don't need to do it perfectly is just very freeing in that sense. 274 00:27:18,370 --> 00:27:23,110 The level of love that she was describing that people talk about in their blogs, 275 00:27:23,110 --> 00:27:30,710 I think feels very familiar and caring about something that much can actually make you into quite an angsty person. 276 00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:34,840 And I actually don't think that's massively helpful when it's the people who 277 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,640 already care the most and are most geared towards trying to make a difference. 278 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,200 Exactly. And I think that really can lead to feeling of, you know, burning out. 279 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,540 So I think that's that's helpful to have this concepts in mind. 280 00:27:49,540 --> 00:27:57,550 I also found it interesting in terms of what she was saying about professional conservation and some of the misperceptions that there are about it, 281 00:27:57,550 --> 00:28:04,040 like the way that people think that conservation is. There is a side to being a conservationist, which is really difficult. 282 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,620 I feel like there's this kind of moral high ground that people assume around conservation. 283 00:28:08,620 --> 00:28:15,790 And also they just think that you like out having adventures, like climbing trees, like swimming around all the time. 284 00:28:15,790 --> 00:28:20,410 And there are elements of that. But it's also a bit more complicated. 285 00:28:20,410 --> 00:28:28,930 I also love Jesse's passion. I feel like she feels all of this so strongly and has such a strong commitment to help conservationists. 286 00:28:28,930 --> 00:28:32,410 Well, on that note, Sophia, I think that's it for this episode. 287 00:28:32,410 --> 00:28:38,290 And if you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple podcast and Spotify. 288 00:28:38,290 --> 00:28:45,460 This episode was funded by an E. S R c impact animation account grounds through the Investor of Oxford. 289 00:28:45,460 --> 00:29:10,872 Original theme music composed and produced by Matthew.