1 00:00:02,980 --> 00:00:10,890 Yes, and thank you. I think that was a very interesting lecture, professor. 2 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:16,860 And I think all of us have been listening and thinking of some of the ideas that were presented here. 3 00:00:16,860 --> 00:00:26,970 And of course, where we are now is is coming into the panel without any waste of time will say that due to some of the 4 00:00:26,970 --> 00:00:33,780 ideas that are picked up is understanding or looking into after you of that sense and how we then, 5 00:00:33,780 --> 00:00:42,300 you know, reconcile with the view that there are complexities and other issues of diversity that we're brought up from this lecture. 6 00:00:42,300 --> 00:00:46,350 So I wouldn't want to to take on the time my name is Caesar quite nicely. 7 00:00:46,350 --> 00:00:55,890 I'll be moderating the panel this evening. So I would like to take this chance then to to give our panellists the chance to introduce themselves. 8 00:00:55,890 --> 00:01:01,320 I would start with Shavar then running and we will come to you. 9 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:08,910 So if you could just take a few minutes of introduction and get to meet our audience? 10 00:01:08,910 --> 00:01:13,320 Tell us about your yourselves and the other veterans. 11 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:18,870 Thank you. Greetings, everyone. 12 00:01:18,870 --> 00:01:32,820 I think they gave us quite a deep introduction by sitting here in Oxford at a talk on decolonisation does have a particular sense of irony. 13 00:01:32,820 --> 00:01:39,780 But like some people say, Moses was raised in the home of the pharaoh and indeed the crisis of capitalism. 14 00:01:39,780 --> 00:01:43,740 Patriarchy and colonialism can be felt the world over. 15 00:01:43,740 --> 00:01:52,950 So wherever we speak about this, the challenge is very real and today is also the 15th of May, which is Knockabout Day, 16 00:01:52,950 --> 00:02:03,000 which marks the 70th anniversary of the catastrophe and the occupation of Palestine by the apartheid State of Israel. 17 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:08,190 So I'd like to say my solidarity to the Palestinian people. 18 00:02:08,190 --> 00:02:15,840 And I'd also like to send my solidarity to the people of Sudan who are trying to protect the revolution to the people of Western Sahara as 19 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:23,550 they continue their struggle against Morocco's occupation and everywhere else in the world where people are resisting an unjust status quo. 20 00:02:23,550 --> 00:02:28,470 Decolonising education is not simply a university project because the university 21 00:02:28,470 --> 00:02:33,300 should be anchored by the society and the world in which it finds itself. 22 00:02:33,300 --> 00:02:41,250 FeesMustFall reminded us as students and society in South Africa, at large and globally as well. 23 00:02:41,250 --> 00:02:45,600 I sometimes get chills when I hear people at Oxford talking about FeesMustFall because 24 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:51,840 when we sat down in front of the university gates on the 14th of October in 2015, 25 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,370 we had no idea the impact that it would have globally. 26 00:02:56,370 --> 00:03:08,640 And so what it taught us as young people is that the youth have the power if they are united to shape the core of an unjust system. 27 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:19,830 And us first question to us. When you sent us prepared questions was what are we doing at the moment to deal with the project of decolonisation? 28 00:03:19,830 --> 00:03:24,270 And because I said that decolonisation is not just a university project, 29 00:03:24,270 --> 00:03:32,280 myself and a few other young people have founded a platform in South Africa called the Big Platform and Beginning Seed in Swahili. 30 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,870 And this is a platform to try and help bridge the geospatial and other divides that 31 00:03:36,870 --> 00:03:42,600 exist in South Africa by taking South African graduates into communities on the margins. 32 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,860 Firstly, because we have so much of organic knowledge to learn from these communities, 33 00:03:46,860 --> 00:03:50,850 and secondly, because what good are our skills and our education? 34 00:03:50,850 --> 00:03:57,690 If we're not using them to create value where it's needed most? And so this takes place in urban areas. 35 00:03:57,690 --> 00:04:02,970 But at the moment, I'm on a bit of a sabbatical from that because I'm here doing my master's at Oxford, 36 00:04:02,970 --> 00:04:09,000 so I'll continue on my course following the questions that you give to us. 37 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,460 But that's a short introduction. Thank you. Thank you. Over to you. 38 00:04:12,460 --> 00:04:16,000 OK, thank you very much for the invitation to be here. 39 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:26,820 Appreciated to be with these. All of you are very esteemed in my in my life and I appreciate it very much. 40 00:04:26,820 --> 00:04:33,720 I'm coming at this from you'll see from a fairly different angle being from the United States and my work. 41 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:39,930 My position. Naledi first is as an African-American working in NPR, in the environmental arena, 42 00:04:39,930 --> 00:04:46,410 both in formal and informal settings, both in schools and in other learning sort of informal learning situations. 43 00:04:46,410 --> 00:04:56,340 And specifically, I'm working in environmental education with and in communities of colour, low income communities in throughout the United States. 44 00:04:56,340 --> 00:04:59,390 More recently, in the last decade or so. 45 00:04:59,390 --> 00:05:10,580 It's typically in the West Coast, California, up through the Pacific Northwest and into Alaska, just a couple of quick stories with that. 46 00:05:10,580 --> 00:05:17,870 In 1969, I went to Outward Bound, which has a great tradition here in Great Britain also. 47 00:05:17,870 --> 00:05:23,900 And I remember being in North Carolina outward bound at that time, about 15 or 16 years old. 48 00:05:23,900 --> 00:05:31,910 And and I remember writing in my journal, which I have by my bed in San Francisco, where I also have residents, 49 00:05:31,910 --> 00:05:39,740 and I like to look at that journal, that entry journal from that 15 or 16 year old boy who said I would love to be an outward bound instructor. 50 00:05:39,740 --> 00:05:48,380 I wonder if I can because I'm black. So the representation issue came, and I could not understand that at that time. 51 00:05:48,380 --> 00:05:54,050 But later in the Marin Headlands, as an environmental and outdoor educator, leading a group of children from East Oakland, 52 00:05:54,050 --> 00:06:00,350 African-American, primarily Latino and recent immigrants from Southeast Asia, 53 00:06:00,350 --> 00:06:02,480 kids there were nine, 10, 54 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:13,370 11 years old and we were on a big parade field at an old military base that's now a national park and national recreation area for the park service. 55 00:06:13,370 --> 00:06:18,560 And this one student came over to me in the middle of games that we were playing an 56 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:26,210 educational sort of things that we were doing and said to me why the police watching us? 57 00:06:26,210 --> 00:06:29,160 And so I, I looked at him sort of strange. 58 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:35,510 I couldn't understand what he was talking about because we were out in nature and we were doing environmental education. 59 00:06:35,510 --> 00:06:39,110 And I said, Well, they're not watching us. He said, Oh, yes, they are. 60 00:06:39,110 --> 00:06:42,830 And he pointed across the parade field amongst some trees, 61 00:06:42,830 --> 00:06:49,220 and there was a park service policeman who in fact was directed towards us and was in the car. 62 00:06:49,220 --> 00:06:55,280 And that, to me was like took me back to the outward bound experience in some ways because we were confronting. 63 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:59,030 We were confronting racism, confronting racism in a national park. 64 00:06:59,030 --> 00:07:07,550 We're confronting racism in outdoor education. And this is a really important moment for me, and I've taken that on as part of my life's work. 65 00:07:07,550 --> 00:07:17,480 The final quick story is with an African-American woman who told me this story during a talk that I was giving in East in Richmond, California, 66 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,250 in an area called the iron triangle, 67 00:07:19,250 --> 00:07:29,570 because it's basically a residential area that's enclosed by industrial facilities and fenced in by a railroad track. 68 00:07:29,570 --> 00:07:35,090 And she said, I was sitting in my front yard like I do in the Sun all of the afternoon, 69 00:07:35,090 --> 00:07:45,320 and a woman came in who was dressed in strange clothing and she had a baby on her on her chest, and she was scrounging around in my backyard. 70 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:50,870 And I was wondering, what is she doing in my yard or my front yard? So she ran out and she chased this woman away. 71 00:07:50,870 --> 00:07:56,150 And the woman obviously did not know English, and she backed off and she was very sorry about this. 72 00:07:56,150 --> 00:08:02,180 So but this got this African-American woman thinking about her own past a little bit and she decided, 73 00:08:02,180 --> 00:08:08,150 you know, the next time this woman comes here, I am going to ask her, What is she doing in my yard? 74 00:08:08,150 --> 00:08:13,400 So the woman came back one day and the African-American woman ran out. 75 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,150 The woman thought she'd been caught again, tried to rush, and she said, No, no, no, no. 76 00:08:17,150 --> 00:08:22,160 The African-American says, no, no stay, stay. I want you to to tell me, what is it that you're doing? 77 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:27,170 And the woman was foraging for things plants to eat. 78 00:08:27,170 --> 00:08:35,900 She was recognising the plant life in the in the front yard. This got the African-American woman, and she told me really thinking about her own past, 79 00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:44,930 about how she and Mississippi was actually taught by her great grandmother, how to recognise medicinal plants, what plants were good to eat. 80 00:08:44,930 --> 00:08:52,130 And this was a really important story for me because it told me that we actually all of us have a connexion to the natural world. 81 00:08:52,130 --> 00:08:58,100 But that connexion to the natural world has been broken by racism, classism and all the other isms that are out there. 82 00:08:58,100 --> 00:09:06,140 And so really, my work is centred finally around re-establishing that connexion with the natural world that we all we all have. 83 00:09:06,140 --> 00:09:12,650 It is a part of our as a part of our human heritage as while he was talking about it in somewhat different context. 84 00:09:12,650 --> 00:09:20,630 Thank you. But I think you know you are you here and here, she should be able. 85 00:09:20,630 --> 00:09:26,300 OK, yeah. And could you give us a brief introduction of yourself? 86 00:09:26,300 --> 00:09:34,800 And welcome to this kind of discussion group. Hi, everyone. 87 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:39,750 Cynthia, you go get, you know, I was me to physically, 88 00:09:39,750 --> 00:09:45,230 but I guess I explained I couldn't come but insist that we try and have a 89 00:09:45,230 --> 00:09:50,690 conversation virtually the accommodation on the fourth industrial revolution, 90 00:09:50,690 --> 00:09:55,730 the very beginning of Africa. So then I that I'll be joining the conversation. 91 00:09:55,730 --> 00:10:03,940 Virtually everyone got excited in Syria. Indeed. The fourth industrial revolution is coming to light. 92 00:10:03,940 --> 00:10:10,660 My name is movement from Khadra, and I hope I have been introduced. 93 00:10:10,660 --> 00:10:21,100 I think as we go into this conversation, the new the main title that might refer to myself as a good would. 94 00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:28,090 Again, a return on those are the Mexican use of leadership and governance. 95 00:10:28,090 --> 00:10:30,040 And as I sit on this board, 96 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:41,080 I'm very honoured as someone who's an aspiring specialist in education because I think for me as a former student activist at this university, 97 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:42,290 it's vital. 98 00:10:42,290 --> 00:10:50,950 It's very important that we find a way to close the gap between the Basic Education System Africa and the higher education system of America. 99 00:10:50,950 --> 00:10:59,260 And as we speak about decolonising higher education, I think it's very important that we have the very same conversation in basic education and then 100 00:10:59,260 --> 00:11:07,210 TransAfrica Forum of having conversations around making history a compulsory subjects in basic education. 101 00:11:07,210 --> 00:11:11,570 You then begin to see that this is an attempt to make the two spaces right. 102 00:11:11,570 --> 00:11:18,280 So so the basic education system is not left behind as we're talking about people innovation and high education. 103 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:24,080 Because if the learners that we are putting through the basic education system, 104 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:31,300 the matriculants, if they're not ready to get into a system that is as a student activists, 105 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:40,710 as activists of higher education spaces speak of them, we are essentially threw them up with the idea of creating a great shock to the system and. 106 00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:44,200 And so that's the type of work that I seek to do. 107 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:56,470 But my view on equalising education system speaks to understanding the fact that we need to remember that we live in Africa and we need to have an 108 00:11:56,470 --> 00:12:07,060 education system that represents the masses of the majority of our people need to have a space of learning that represent the majority of our people. 109 00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:09,130 And and that for me, 110 00:12:09,130 --> 00:12:21,610 sort of translates to how you then become impactful in the economic activities of our states in general participation in the states. 111 00:12:21,610 --> 00:12:34,600 And so I don't necessarily look at the private education system, an idea on putting the with an ideology then and in academia, I'm saying right, 112 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:40,570 but acknowledging the fact that we are on the African continent and having the different perspectives 113 00:12:40,570 --> 00:12:47,890 on the different scenarios and the different teachings and pedagogy didn't speak to us as an African, 114 00:12:47,890 --> 00:12:52,090 and that's one of them, the manner in which I'd like to look at it in. 115 00:12:52,090 --> 00:12:58,300 For example, if you take the idea of the Fourth Industrial Revolution, the congregation of the Fourth Industrial Revolution, 116 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:09,070 there are many African roots in the prioritising prioritisation of that conversation in our country is jumping the gun. 117 00:13:09,070 --> 00:13:17,770 It's it's it's pretty much true. However, when you look at the Embassy of Education for Sufi recipient, 118 00:13:17,770 --> 00:13:28,270 how he unpacks the fact that we do find out what methods missing in the global system and move to find a way to relate to the teaching 119 00:13:28,270 --> 00:13:37,570 of the academic preparation of the Fourth Industrial Revolution in a way that translates to us as South Africans living in South Africa. 120 00:13:37,570 --> 00:13:44,860 And so for me, when we when we speak of decolonisation, the education system, 121 00:13:44,860 --> 00:13:55,900 a big part of it speaks to making the education system relatable and effective for a young person living in South Africa. 122 00:13:55,900 --> 00:14:02,710 That is how I relate to that conversation. I don't know if I'm out of touch. 123 00:14:02,710 --> 00:14:13,300 It's very hard to tell, but I think you'll join us back in as the conversation continues. 124 00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:20,770 Thank you for your brief introduction. I think for now, we would look then at the question of today's lecture, really, 125 00:14:20,770 --> 00:14:28,210 and to then hear your own thesis on the issue of decolonising education and for you running. 126 00:14:28,210 --> 00:14:32,800 I think where you could take us to, as you know, as having had experiences as an academic, 127 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:40,840 and this is then to look at what are the places to look for, you know, case studies about decolonisation. 128 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:46,150 So thinking of how much academia is codified and certain approaches? 129 00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:53,140 You know, for decolonising education? And can we look at different sectors outside of academia for best practises? 130 00:14:53,140 --> 00:14:59,460 But I guess where we are, you know, as a starting place for all of our panellists is to look at. 131 00:14:59,460 --> 00:15:04,740 And while it's a question of saying, is Africa a dissimilar system and for you, 132 00:15:04,740 --> 00:15:14,670 I ask that when you respond to this to then help us think of other approaches or other places to look for in terms of your own experiences with China, 133 00:15:14,670 --> 00:15:20,130 should we start with this question of whether that's that's right. Yeah, for me. 134 00:15:20,130 --> 00:15:29,400 So you, a younger person who was younger, says that the seas constituted of many rivers, some of which of course, 135 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:36,390 many fields, but the rivers and the constituent streams do not lose their individuality, streams and rivers. 136 00:15:36,390 --> 00:15:44,370 The result is the vastness of the sea and the ocean. So I wanted to start on that to build on this beautiful analogy. 137 00:15:44,370 --> 00:15:52,050 The current formalised Western knowledge production system through the power structure of universities as one source of power, 138 00:15:52,050 --> 00:15:58,050 stuffs the flow of certain knowledge and this is quite literally drying up the ocean. 139 00:15:58,050 --> 00:16:04,020 And that's why I really liked your focus on the way in which these isms have 140 00:16:04,020 --> 00:16:09,240 really broken the connexion between us as human beings and nature in general. 141 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:15,090 And I say westernised and not western because as Professor Rahman goes, Hugo says, 142 00:16:15,090 --> 00:16:22,500 thanks to hundreds of years of colonial expansion and epistemic side and epistemic side refers to the killing of knowledge systems, 143 00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:30,630 the westernised university is a global structure of a global system in which we live and can be found found anywhere in the world, 144 00:16:30,630 --> 00:16:32,820 not just in the global north. 145 00:16:32,820 --> 00:16:41,220 Epistemic side is also the reason that as Professor AI driven, we correctly mentioned that the Haitian Revolution is not taught, 146 00:16:41,220 --> 00:16:46,380 and the paradox of the exploitation of millions of colonial slaves was accepted by the 147 00:16:46,380 --> 00:16:54,150 very thinkers who proclaimed freedom to be a human nature and an inalienable right. 148 00:16:54,150 --> 00:17:02,880 The paradigms of political economy, even within the global south, sometimes lose sight of important structures of power for the global system. 149 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,180 And we know that one of them is the Westernised University. 150 00:17:06,180 --> 00:17:15,630 This produces universalised elites from the global south who become professionals, but the pretension of universalism itself is troubling. 151 00:17:15,630 --> 00:17:24,450 How do we go about embracing a plurality of thinking academically that is accepted and not undermined because of where it comes from? 152 00:17:24,450 --> 00:17:28,260 For example, I studied economics as an undergrad, 153 00:17:28,260 --> 00:17:36,660 and the way something like utility was described in my textbook is through rational thinking on what makes a person better. 154 00:17:36,660 --> 00:17:44,520 Rational thinking was assumed through a Western lens in that acting rationally means acting in your own self-interest. 155 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:53,310 But this is not always the case. The idea of wanting, for example, teaches us that to act rationally does not mean acting in your own self-interest, 156 00:17:53,310 --> 00:17:59,100 but in the self, in the interest of the collective and the community that you find yourself in. 157 00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:06,900 And in that same textbook, government intervention was always seen as something negative in Islamic history. 158 00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:13,170 Leaders of a particular community were put on trial because a member of that community had starved to death. 159 00:18:13,170 --> 00:18:22,560 Interest was not allowed because making money off of money and speculation heedlessly can lead to what we saw in the 2008 financial crisis. 160 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,480 So history has many lessons for us about times when things were very different. 161 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:36,150 And for me, the main thing to think about when you talk about decolonisation is that for African studies particularly, 162 00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:45,750 it's putting the African in African studies because global studies through a western lens given its legitimacy through epistemic epistemic side. 163 00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:48,390 And because of this reality, 164 00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:58,230 the scholarly enquiry that we find in these westernised universities doesn't speak to a more human and global knowledge production system. 165 00:18:58,230 --> 00:19:09,090 And so it makes it incumbent on us as scholars of African studies to ensure that we don't fall into the same essentialism of Africa. 166 00:19:09,090 --> 00:19:16,050 But we show how African knowledge and African knowledge production systems have actually always contributed. 167 00:19:16,050 --> 00:19:24,090 And because of the lack of contribution, the world is in a dark place. 168 00:19:24,090 --> 00:19:32,820 That for now is my thesis. I guess running. OK, I thought you just talk for a moment about the environmental justice movement, 169 00:19:32,820 --> 00:19:36,750 the emergence of the environmental justice movement in the nineteen eighties, 170 00:19:36,750 --> 00:19:40,860 early, very nineteen ninety nineteen nineties, nineteen ninety one or so. 171 00:19:40,860 --> 00:19:50,280 And basically, this was a social movement that came from a place where from from places and from people who were not supposed to 172 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:58,340 know anything about the environment they were seen and the reception amongst government agencies to deal with the. 173 00:19:58,340 --> 00:20:03,080 Environmental issues was very cold and very, 174 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:13,190 very reluctant to accept the fact that people who did not have these and people who had did not have profession 175 00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:19,490 professional credentials of being involved with the environment knew anything about the environment whatsoever. 176 00:20:19,490 --> 00:20:24,950 But as it turned out, over the years after some deep institutional conflict, 177 00:20:24,950 --> 00:20:32,480 political conflicts that we accept, we were accepted as having knowledge about our communities. 178 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,820 In fact, of the motto of the environmental justice movement remains we speak for ourselves. 179 00:20:37,820 --> 00:20:43,850 We know our lives better than anyone else knows our lives because we we live our lives. 180 00:20:43,850 --> 00:20:53,480 And so Palfrey's educational approach, I think, can be seen in that very popular movement of environmental justice. 181 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,440 And so for me, as an environmental educator during that period, 182 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:03,770 I began to understand that the role of education in an environmental education in 183 00:21:03,770 --> 00:21:10,100 creating a really truncated environmental movement which is basically understood, 184 00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:17,690 has been criticised for a couple of decades now as being primarily white, primarily middle class and upper class. 185 00:21:17,690 --> 00:21:18,830 And so I wondered, 186 00:21:18,830 --> 00:21:27,740 how did this move has what happened with the environmental movement and why is there a a divergence between the indigenous knowledge of people, 187 00:21:27,740 --> 00:21:31,940 African-Americans in the South and Native Americans, people in cities? 188 00:21:31,940 --> 00:21:34,820 Why is there a divergence between their understanding and their knowledge of 189 00:21:34,820 --> 00:21:38,600 the environment and institutions that are supposed to protect the environment, 190 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:46,040 and a non-profit environmental movement that is really culturally, you know, demographically limited? 191 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:52,130 But the other implication of this was in the setting of the environmental agenda for the country and the implications 192 00:21:52,130 --> 00:21:59,540 for the entire world about the American version of what environmentalism is and what our priority priorities are. 193 00:21:59,540 --> 00:22:07,730 That agenda is not formed with the full array of people who are impacted by environmental harms. 194 00:22:07,730 --> 00:22:13,220 And so this is this leads to a truncated environmental agenda and one that is not really representative represents 195 00:22:13,220 --> 00:22:19,550 more the class and economic interests of those who form that agenda than the people who are impacted the most. 196 00:22:19,550 --> 00:22:25,550 And a central idea of environmental justice is, is that the people, the people who are least able, 197 00:22:25,550 --> 00:22:34,610 least politically, have politically armed to protect themselves to mitigate the effects of environmental harms, 198 00:22:34,610 --> 00:22:40,820 to set the direction of environmental policy are actually those who are impacted the most by environmental 199 00:22:40,820 --> 00:22:47,000 harms and the lack of environmental or the mal distribution of environmental amenities such as parks, 200 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,300 for example, and environmental public health. 201 00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:58,700 So, you know, in brief and in some, I think that with the organisation that I founded with my colleagues of cultural workers, 202 00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:04,820 environmental educators and political activists, we began to see that knowledge production, so to speak, 203 00:23:04,820 --> 00:23:13,040 was really at the centre of what we were doing because we were we were seeking to uncover the cultural assets. 204 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:18,980 The cultural knowledge is that people already had and how to make it through education, 205 00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:28,820 make it more possible for them to mobilise what they knew for their own interests in the interests of their communities. 206 00:23:28,820 --> 00:23:34,250 I also want to just say that we also, as we built the critique of environmental education and environmentalism, 207 00:23:34,250 --> 00:23:39,020 we also cite disciplinary allies and we found them in critical social theory, 208 00:23:39,020 --> 00:23:44,060 environmental sociology and the pedagogy of multicultural and social justice education. 209 00:23:44,060 --> 00:23:49,250 So there was a role that we found wasn't that we were saying, you know, we can do this sort of on our own, 210 00:23:49,250 --> 00:23:59,300 but there was a certain kind of theorising that was occurring that we understood could have a role in what we were trying to restructure and critique. 211 00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:02,330 And we also understood that our role as environmental educators, 212 00:24:02,330 --> 00:24:08,090 as community oriented as we were decolonising pedagogy of pedagogical project had to be 213 00:24:08,090 --> 00:24:13,850 embedded in really thoroughly identified with a larger project of decolonial colonialism, 214 00:24:13,850 --> 00:24:17,840 environmental discourse generally. And his story in allying itself, 215 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:24,890 aligning itself with historical struggles for civil and cultural rights of other marginalised and minority populations. 216 00:24:24,890 --> 00:24:28,850 Thank you very much for that great fix. 217 00:24:28,850 --> 00:24:34,880 I mean, now we're going to ask a question to to to build a very specific one. 218 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:41,000 I'm speaking of apartheid government and Winnie Mandela said, and I quote the years of imprisonment. 219 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:50,330 I didn't mean perhaps if you have been given a moment to hold back and wait for the next blow, your emotions would be blunted as they have been. 220 00:24:50,330 --> 00:24:57,020 In my case, when it happens every day of your life, when that pain becomes a way of life. 221 00:24:57,020 --> 00:25:02,980 There is no longer in. Thing I can see it, there is nothing the government has not done to me. 222 00:25:02,980 --> 00:25:09,100 There isn't any pain. I have, you know, close quotes. There are two parts then to this quote. 223 00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:18,190 First is how women specifically and unequally yoked into the project of the project to decolonise implication. 224 00:25:18,190 --> 00:25:24,460 And also do we see a different movement of women in anti oppression struggles? 225 00:25:24,460 --> 00:25:30,220 And secondly, how do we extend the community working on this project to decolonise? 226 00:25:30,220 --> 00:25:38,620 And so this includes marginalised bodies, women and LGBTI communities as well as the disabled. 227 00:25:38,620 --> 00:25:45,220 So if you could, you know, respond to this question also based on your own experience, 228 00:25:45,220 --> 00:25:57,440 having been part of the student activism in some of the struggles that we've seen on our campuses that today, I think interest all of us. 229 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,280 Thank you for giving me the space. 230 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:17,730 A lot of space is a very aggressive towards woman for marginalised bodies, the physical society and not intersectional rights. 231 00:26:17,730 --> 00:26:24,720 I had this little change we you want to see so much in the out of FeesMustFall, 232 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:30,510 a public demand of the university, which at some points put together in permanently, I don't like they have. 233 00:26:30,510 --> 00:26:39,870 I mean, I I would in 2016's. I've been out of the campus for quite a while, but if they have created a committee that is made just their hate, 234 00:26:39,870 --> 00:26:47,130 the idea of equalising the institution and the learning experience, 235 00:26:47,130 --> 00:27:04,050 I would imagine that the committee would ultimately let the institution move into a one as one who left by the time I was reading something that we, 236 00:27:04,050 --> 00:27:07,890 the committee that spearheaded the change that we want to see our Male-Dominated, 237 00:27:07,890 --> 00:27:22,410 which means that the way in which the change of the approach to the change comes about it becomes very masculine, becomes very. 238 00:27:22,410 --> 00:27:29,490 OK. It seems that we are having challenges of getting through, but at this point, 239 00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:34,950 if she if she gets back on as a viewer, we will try to see if she can join us. 240 00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:42,300 But but I think for now we are going to open to our audience to engage with the panel and 241 00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:49,080 to try to direct some questions or comments to the professor at the barn on his lecture. 242 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:55,920 And if we could. And if you raise your hand and just shoot straight into your question or your observation, 243 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:03,030 and I think our panel would be delighted to give some feedback on today's any hence. 244 00:28:03,030 --> 00:28:09,930 So I'm going to start over with the lady at the back and the gentleman here and in that chair, 245 00:28:09,930 --> 00:28:20,640 which is she's going to be about being marginalised from descending into the new centre. 246 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,890 I wonder how much the politics of funding in the academy plays into that, 247 00:28:25,890 --> 00:28:32,320 and I wonder if you could just talk a little bit more about the politics of funding and the academy. 248 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:43,460 You know that some of the. 249 00:28:43,460 --> 00:28:47,480 I would take the second, and yes, sir. Thank you. 250 00:28:47,480 --> 00:29:00,160 Thank you. This is a question for Hyde. I wanted to ask what your stance was on academics teaching African studies who are 251 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:09,990 not black and also what your view is on British education in terms of university, 252 00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:22,010 but in terms of decolonising the curriculum and in comparison to America and your experiences in America and to the teaching methods. 253 00:29:22,010 --> 00:29:27,110 So give you a chance or what? 254 00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:28,910 The first question, thank you for a question. 255 00:29:28,910 --> 00:29:38,090 I do not read a book on the political economy of knowledge production, which is entirely part of that is at play here. 256 00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:47,000 But I think it's essentially about attitudes. Part of it has to do with religious, you know, religion in terms of the ways in which, 257 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:54,020 you know, Sudan for a long time before display wanted to identify itself with the, 258 00:29:54,020 --> 00:29:59,150 you know, military force with North Africa and then eventually with the Middle East and the Muslim world. 259 00:29:59,150 --> 00:30:08,570 So that's part of it. But it's also about how external forces, you know, manipulating differentiation within the continent. 260 00:30:08,570 --> 00:30:17,870 So there are all sorts of factors. For instance, I mean, if I can raise money and have it in Sudan, studies in Africa, studies I can do. 261 00:30:17,870 --> 00:30:22,370 I mean, we go South Sudan, you know, in Africa is sorry saying that. 262 00:30:22,370 --> 00:30:26,540 And it probably would move over. So that's the political economy of it. 263 00:30:26,540 --> 00:30:32,240 But I think the essential thing is the attitude to think that, of course, 264 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:37,470 you also have to recognise that this is not just about do, it's also about reality. 265 00:30:37,470 --> 00:30:43,820 You know, the reality that some North African countries like to play Africa when it's convenient and friendly to Israel? 266 00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:47,180 So all of that is there. Sudan also so factors. 267 00:30:47,180 --> 00:30:56,570 But if we have the right attitude to do this in terms of understanding the point about studying global Africa, 268 00:30:56,570 --> 00:31:05,720 if we have a problem before studying countries that are within the territory of Africa in African studies, then imagine those who are not even within. 269 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:10,820 I mean, Africans who I know within our continent, Africa. So I think doses of factors are affected. 270 00:31:10,820 --> 00:31:19,020 But I think the most important probably is the attitude that people have those who are in charge of determining this, these dynamics. 271 00:31:19,020 --> 00:31:25,970 And second question about my experience, I do think I understand very well in terms of the first part of it. 272 00:31:25,970 --> 00:31:33,590 I understand it as a people and North Africa in Africa. I personally have absolutely no problem with anybody touching anything. 273 00:31:33,590 --> 00:31:39,440 If I have enough knowledge, I can go and teach China. You know, teaching China teach about everything. 274 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:48,170 So that's not the problem. What I was identifying was this attitude in North America at your point, when, 275 00:31:48,170 --> 00:31:51,890 you know, like watching the story and who, by the way, who was behind the story, 276 00:31:51,890 --> 00:31:55,250 who was uncomfortable with the fact that Africans were teaching Africa, 277 00:31:55,250 --> 00:32:02,600 which has something to do with the issue that we because our only production, we think that Africa do not have legitimacy to teach about Africa. 278 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:07,040 And it was, you know, it's a different behaviour, was thinking it or talking about it. 279 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:15,290 I mean, you actually wrote the piece the Chronicle of Higher Education saying that Africans teach in Africa is ghettoisation of African history, 280 00:32:15,290 --> 00:32:21,980 which, you know, which is a different matter entirely. So that is that's a different way to your second question. 281 00:32:21,980 --> 00:32:27,050 If I understood very well with my the differences in terms of my experiences in 282 00:32:27,050 --> 00:32:34,250 teaching in the United States and here in the UK at that at the university level, 283 00:32:34,250 --> 00:32:43,140 you mean? Yeah, like any challenges that you, you know of any similarities and some challenges or different, you know, 284 00:32:43,140 --> 00:32:51,140 the British education system more receptive to African studies and actually study in Africa more broadly. 285 00:32:51,140 --> 00:32:55,310 OK. Well, you know, I was training the British teacher and I was in Nigeria and he had Cambridge. 286 00:32:55,310 --> 00:32:59,390 So I mean, my education is in the British tradition, 287 00:32:59,390 --> 00:33:06,120 which I value and what one thing that I see generally and this is not absolutely true, but just my personal observation. 288 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:14,300 British education emphasises that there, whereas American education is about race, that's a general, might not be true for some people. 289 00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:19,400 But that's my observation, which is why, as I said earlier, you will find engineering students in my classroom. 290 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:24,800 Africa is nowhere near united. They will find his way here, the way before you go home at night. 291 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:29,450 You can't even see that even come here. So it's about so they stop. 292 00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:34,400 For me. I mean, having that kind of education, I really value that. 293 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:40,580 That, of course, I must confess, of course, that exposure to the breath of, you know, 294 00:33:40,580 --> 00:33:46,310 the emphasis on breath and I really can't talk about wait times of our, you know, Africa study. 295 00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:53,390 I think there is also the issue of the economy. I mean, of course, Europe is where Africa used to be studied before. 296 00:33:53,390 --> 00:33:57,530 You know, as I mentioned, you know that African Americans, that age study of Africa. 297 00:33:57,530 --> 00:34:08,120 But the two said it would be the financial power that the United States has in terms of. 298 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:14,150 You can see that's way more or less the North America as overtaking Europe in terms of study in Africa, 299 00:34:14,150 --> 00:34:20,180 because there's huge resources that are available to be able to study Africa in different measures. 300 00:34:20,180 --> 00:34:24,400 The example I give a. But Columbia is very interesting the way in which, you know, 301 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:31,960 architecture is going up in North America and that is really to study Africa globally, you know, and that, 302 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:41,200 I think is the way we should go that challenges here because you don't have as much resources in British universities as you know, 303 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,790 you have the American British. So that means that a limitation, for instance. 304 00:34:45,790 --> 00:34:51,130 I mean, there are areas in which we think who would like to have to recruit people to teach here. 305 00:34:51,130 --> 00:34:55,870 You, you. I mean, you can't just wake up and do that, whereas in the American university. 306 00:34:55,870 --> 00:35:01,120 Well, I must also say there is so much diversity in America. I don't think there is that white university. 307 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:07,390 So there may be a backlash from those who are educated. You know, some of that level also in the Ivory Coast. 308 00:35:07,390 --> 00:35:16,330 If you can go to your and, you know, talk Yardeni into giving you two places to hire two new people because of the sheer, 309 00:35:16,330 --> 00:35:21,460 you know, financial power that you know, big institutions have in the United States, you know? 310 00:35:21,460 --> 00:35:28,840 So I mean, if I wake up and go, talk to my dear about that night, you probably just laugh at, 311 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:35,590 you know, so you don't have that kind of risk to the and the resources to be able to, 312 00:35:35,590 --> 00:35:42,940 you know, perhaps I mean, do things that you that in my experience, I must always add that because it would just be a peculiar way. 313 00:35:42,940 --> 00:35:48,310 I was thinking of what can be done, you know, so it maybe something we have to have maybe different, 314 00:35:48,310 --> 00:35:55,450 you know, the Russell Group universities or elsewhere in the UK, but that's me to share my experience. 315 00:35:55,450 --> 00:36:01,450 So we take two more hands. If we are, oh yes. Could we take you first then? 316 00:36:01,450 --> 00:36:05,380 Well, I thank you for the talk. It was really informative and I learnt a lot. 317 00:36:05,380 --> 00:36:11,460 I felt I needed quite a bit of the literature, but really introduced me to some new texts. 318 00:36:11,460 --> 00:36:16,840 I'm going to pursue and I just want to pick up on the issue of following those two questions. 319 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:23,650 Actually, I had one on funding because I think one and one on who should teach African studies. 320 00:36:23,650 --> 00:36:28,060 I agree with you fully right that anyone should be able to teach Africa. 321 00:36:28,060 --> 00:36:35,170 And also Africans should teach about the rest of the world, which is always something that people are very hesitant for us to do. 322 00:36:35,170 --> 00:36:41,110 Why don't you focus in on your country rather than, you know, I want to study America or Europe and so on? 323 00:36:41,110 --> 00:36:42,610 That's it. That's an issue. 324 00:36:42,610 --> 00:36:51,250 But in the US changes, and I'm really pleased that you mentioned actually that African studies started in that historically black colleges. 325 00:36:51,250 --> 00:36:57,790 But the change to mainstream African studies didn't really occur until black African American 326 00:36:57,790 --> 00:37:05,290 and Africans from the Diaspora started to get jobs in art centres for African studies. 327 00:37:05,290 --> 00:37:10,930 So there was a critical mass and people could and that could push for a change. 328 00:37:10,930 --> 00:37:16,660 And I think that's the difference in Britain is that there are hardly any black, young, 329 00:37:16,660 --> 00:37:26,860 black or black scholars of African descent Weber, British or from Africa in teach in centres for African studies in Britain. 330 00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:33,940 And that's in Europe generally. And that's a major problem. And that that is limiting the shifts that we would like to see. 331 00:37:33,940 --> 00:37:36,910 And until we and I think, you know, if anything, 332 00:37:36,910 --> 00:37:44,860 what we should be pushing for is for more black scholars and more BME or whatever they want to call us in teaching in African studies, 333 00:37:44,860 --> 00:37:50,350 more PhDs, Black British African students for African students more generally so that they can. 334 00:37:50,350 --> 00:37:57,550 That can happen because without that mass right, you know, we're not going to get the change that we might want to see. 335 00:37:57,550 --> 00:38:05,890 Now the issue also about funding, you're right about funding and there is money available within the British system, 336 00:38:05,890 --> 00:38:14,860 but it's not necessarily targeted at all prior other priorities that we want to see if we are thinking about a different kind of future for Africa. 337 00:38:14,860 --> 00:38:24,940 Right. I'm the one that is is pursued by, you know, so we would want to say mainstream or or I don't know what to call it. 338 00:38:24,940 --> 00:38:34,480 Yeah, you know, that's the norm anyway. And the funding, for example, in Britain at the moment is directly through GCR. 339 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:43,030 Those of you who don't know it's global Challenge Research Fund is British government has taken how many billions two billion of the aid money, 340 00:38:43,030 --> 00:38:51,850 so that nought point seven percent they say they're putting towards eight two billion is taken off to fund research in universities. 341 00:38:51,850 --> 00:38:55,660 So it's actually, you know, the government really is not that money is the aid money. 342 00:38:55,660 --> 00:38:59,980 It's money for research. So you need to calculate what percentage is then going to. 343 00:38:59,980 --> 00:39:05,210 But that research money is tied to Sustainable Development Goals, it's tied to development, 344 00:39:05,210 --> 00:39:13,420 the priorities of the Department for International Development and the FCO and other British institute, you know, governmental bodies. 345 00:39:13,420 --> 00:39:21,060 So that money so it's really difficult. You try to put forward a proposal right to do the sort of research that you. 346 00:39:21,060 --> 00:39:24,780 Going to do about, I don't know, but I can say, and you're not going to get it funded. 347 00:39:24,780 --> 00:39:28,980 Laugh you down. They say, Oh, this is not the future that we want. We want money which is going to make. 348 00:39:28,980 --> 00:39:32,700 We will fund research that is supposed to make a difference on the ground. 349 00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:36,640 Even though we know after decades of AIDS, you know, not different. 350 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,820 The real difference is that be made have been have come through the end of African people. 351 00:39:41,820 --> 00:39:50,160 Right. So what I I mean, one of the things I was trying to do and I have tried to do is to find out how much is much money 352 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:55,200 actually black scholars in Britain get from these funding bodies that they don't show the data. 353 00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:02,820 They supposed to collect the data, but they don't present. So we don't know how many black scholars or African scholars get even SLC funding. 354 00:40:02,820 --> 00:40:07,320 Sorry, I'm going on a bet or any funding from other funding agencies. We don't know. 355 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:13,200 We don't know. I mean, you'd have to scroll through the projects, and if they do, they're normally a cool applicant. 356 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:20,340 Right? So the issue of our priorities, our research priorities are not going to get funded in the in the current system. 357 00:40:20,340 --> 00:40:25,440 And in some sense, how then do we change that language? I mean, that might have happened in South Africa. 358 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:30,220 I don't know. But we need to engage these funding bodies. 359 00:40:30,220 --> 00:40:32,670 We and the British Academy, 360 00:40:32,670 --> 00:40:40,380 you know and know that members there one or two black members of the British Academy stopped talking to them about how we can change the funding 361 00:40:40,380 --> 00:40:49,720 priorities and look at some of the things that are of interest to black people in Britain and or of African descent and also on the continent. 362 00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:59,910 So sorry, I'm going to go on a bit more because I'm a geographer and I did the PSC emphasise in geology and geography, 363 00:40:59,910 --> 00:41:07,590 but I couldn't see a future for myself as a geologist and my my my geography background was more ecology, so I'm not. 364 00:41:07,590 --> 00:41:14,740 I became a social scientist because I studied a master's in African studies, but I was actually this, you know, you could call the sciences. 365 00:41:14,740 --> 00:41:22,080 But Black people in British, I grew up in London and we were I mean, we're not cool there, but anyway, everything we do is urban. 366 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,830 So we weren't seeing we're not expected to be in the British countryside. 367 00:41:25,830 --> 00:41:35,220 We're not expected to be looking at rocks or anything like that. Right. So I was like strange because I wanted to be able to go out and do things. 368 00:41:35,220 --> 00:41:44,960 So my discipline at the moment is in crisis, especially here in the university, because we don't have enough BME or black students. 369 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:52,470 And we are supposed to be posh, according to the newspapers, because most of our students are from the higher socio economic group. 370 00:41:52,470 --> 00:41:58,830 So how do we engage black students or black young black people to consider studying some 371 00:41:58,830 --> 00:42:03,210 of the critical issues that you've mentioned because we do teach them on the course, 372 00:42:03,210 --> 00:42:07,530 but we can't attract them to come here? Yeah, OK. So, yeah. 373 00:42:07,530 --> 00:42:14,820 All right. Thank you. And in response to to your question, I'm sorry, not want my take, but I think we can engage the panel as we all go out. 374 00:42:14,820 --> 00:42:25,770 But in the close, as we are now coming to that, we could respond to the question and also give us your closing remarks and the same for you. 375 00:42:25,770 --> 00:42:28,590 And run. That would be wonderful. Yeah, thank you. 376 00:42:28,590 --> 00:42:35,130 Also to this as to the number of questions that we've received, I know there could have been more, but I expect that as we walk out, 377 00:42:35,130 --> 00:42:43,680 we could engage with the panel even further and follow them on their various platforms where we can get some more information over the OK. 378 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:50,370 Let me just say that I endorse this analysis of the challenges in terms of funding. 379 00:42:50,370 --> 00:42:56,310 The only part of it I want to add is what I have tried to do since I came here is also to challenge, you know, 380 00:42:56,310 --> 00:43:01,980 our folks back in the continent that you know, the politics of the political economy, of knowledge production. 381 00:43:01,980 --> 00:43:05,760 If you don't put your money in it, you can also raise questions. 382 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:12,360 Do you have money? I know people who have too much money that anybody needs for one lifetime, you know, 383 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:19,740 because I study lead and I was forced out of my life, so I know that my I have been having conversations. 384 00:43:19,740 --> 00:43:25,380 Can you put some money down for the I mean, I watch this with this project. 385 00:43:25,380 --> 00:43:34,290 I would say you cannot contribute to any debate about, you know, on equal terms of of production because you're not for any sort. 386 00:43:34,290 --> 00:43:43,590 One way in which we could do this. It's actually also to get people who have loads of money on our side to also fund this thing. 387 00:43:43,590 --> 00:43:47,910 I mean, somebody before for says, you know, we are working towards, you know, 388 00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:56,190 let somebody bring that billion dollars and say, I want the Roadster to gauge Taubenberger University is going to to an end. 389 00:43:56,190 --> 00:44:02,580 But I mean, the language of money is one of the most valuable languages that you might be, right? 390 00:44:02,580 --> 00:44:06,150 You know, so this is the other side of it. I endorse your side. 391 00:44:06,150 --> 00:44:13,270 But then we've got to encourage people to also phone the decades of, look, nobody is going to fund knowledge to subvert their power. 392 00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:20,800 Yeah, sometimes they do to be able to know what you are doing, but you've got to also fund so that that's one challenge we have in. 393 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:26,170 This struggle when I meet folks who have loads of money for the contingency, you've got to come. 394 00:44:26,170 --> 00:44:30,130 Yeah, some of them have also, excuse me, I should have put my money in Oxford. 395 00:44:30,130 --> 00:44:36,010 So where you put it in Africa, if you have put your hands on your investor day, you guys okay, this is where I'm on the point. 396 00:44:36,010 --> 00:44:40,100 The other thing is that sometimes, yes, you need to feel like I'm. 397 00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:44,650 I don't pursue money for undergrad education in Africa. 398 00:44:44,650 --> 00:44:54,160 Yeah, I mean, the for what I pursue is postgraduate. You know what you need even masters this major just one year of education in Oxford. 399 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:59,260 You can go back home is transforming. I mean, the I mean, there are also challenges with that. 400 00:44:59,260 --> 00:45:04,060 But so I think that side of it is also very important in terms of people who are teaching. 401 00:45:04,060 --> 00:45:10,180 Yes. We've got to bring more people. I mean, we are having some of this competition because some of us that, you know, fortunate to be here. 402 00:45:10,180 --> 00:45:15,080 So we've got to populate these centres. That's the theme in the United States, which of course, 403 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:24,520 raised some of the backlash that mention some of it will also mean that we've got to encourage people to come out volunteer positions here because, 404 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:31,120 you know, here, you know, it's difficult to talk to anybody about new positions unless they someone come from somewhere. 405 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,670 So it's important to pursue these. 406 00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:40,660 And I think by talking about things like this with you, I mean, nowadays your sensitivity to these issues because of the efforts of, 407 00:45:40,660 --> 00:45:46,090 you know, FeesMustFall, RhodesMustFall, these two, sometimes people think this needs to have consequences. 408 00:45:46,090 --> 00:45:48,790 They do have consequences, you know, for reasons, 409 00:45:48,790 --> 00:45:56,800 I was involved in some discussions about some positions that I hold in some place that I need to be place and everyone was always there British way. 410 00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,410 They're talking about how can we find an African to replace me? 411 00:45:59,410 --> 00:46:03,550 So this means that if you think you know you guys have made some impact, you might not see it. 412 00:46:03,550 --> 00:46:09,270 But you know, people actually have been very sensitive now to some of these issues. 413 00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:17,710 Yeah. I wonder if you could. Yes, I would say my last remarks about this would be if you get a couple of points. 414 00:46:17,710 --> 00:46:24,730 One is that it had to do with the question of what are sort of next steps or what or what else is needed. 415 00:46:24,730 --> 00:46:30,370 And I would say, first of all, let's not limited to classroom change and pedagogy and curriculum. 416 00:46:30,370 --> 00:46:38,380 Secondly, academia does not need to do this on its own and may be unable really enough or unprepared to do this kind of work alone. 417 00:46:38,380 --> 00:46:42,730 There's a role for colleges and universities basically serve the needs of communities. 418 00:46:42,730 --> 00:46:47,680 That's the bottom line. Create space for communities to co-create educational programmes. 419 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:52,630 Both the curriculums and the pedagogy cultivate multicultural youth leadership and 420 00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:57,790 create spaces to build communities and community and coalitions across difference. 421 00:46:57,790 --> 00:47:07,540 And then finally protect the cultural rights, the cultural resources, the traditional knowledge and the land rights of indigenous peoples everywhere. 422 00:47:07,540 --> 00:47:10,780 Because they are the brain trust of humanity. 423 00:47:10,780 --> 00:47:18,190 Interaction with the land and the landscape is the genesis of and a repository of humanity's deepest knowledge. 424 00:47:18,190 --> 00:47:26,140 Loss of land loss of experience with the land means the loss of knowledge and then changing. 425 00:47:26,140 --> 00:47:36,160 Give us your closing remarks. Two things before I do that just to contribute to your your input. 426 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:45,280 I managed to sneak my way into a course at the Oxford Internet Institute, doing the master's in African studies. 427 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:51,460 You can choose an option, of course, and I decided I wanted to do one outside of African studies. 428 00:47:51,460 --> 00:48:00,370 And in that, I realised that there was a project going on that's seen as a collaboration between the 429 00:48:00,370 --> 00:48:04,870 University of the Western Cape and South Africa and the University of Cape Town South Africa, 430 00:48:04,870 --> 00:48:10,600 with the University of Manchester in the UK and Oxford University. 431 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:19,150 And this collaboration is around Fair Work and Fair Work Foundation, which is what the collaborative effort is called, 432 00:48:19,150 --> 00:48:26,290 is around rating platform businesses that are kind of digital labour platforms. 433 00:48:26,290 --> 00:48:35,020 So if I want to order an Uber in the same way, if I want to hire a domestic worker to clean my home in the same way that I call an Uber, 434 00:48:35,020 --> 00:48:39,430 you know, that's an easy way to kind of describe to you what this digital labour platforms are. 435 00:48:39,430 --> 00:48:47,440 But what I found when I interviewed some of the people at the University of Cape Town when I was doing my fieldwork because it's also in this area, 436 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:57,940 I realised that the norms and the standards that are used, the literature that is chosen in these projects is actually dictated by Oxford University. 437 00:48:57,940 --> 00:49:02,420 And the funding that they get for these projects is exactly from that. 438 00:49:02,420 --> 00:49:09,340 Jeff. See, I'm not sure if I've got the acronym GCR F, so it's from that funding. 439 00:49:09,340 --> 00:49:19,660 But what's even more interesting is because I'm interested in the funding of universities given my background in the FeesMustFall protests. 440 00:49:19,660 --> 00:49:29,230 This is the. The funding for public universities and for universities in general in the UK, the subsidies for funding have actually decreased a lot, 441 00:49:29,230 --> 00:49:36,370 and some of the justification that is being used for that decrease is the aid money that has come in. 442 00:49:36,370 --> 00:49:46,630 But I think there's a lot of room for African academics to really challenge the way in which this process is unfolding. 443 00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:55,900 Both academics from the UK, as well as academics from South Africa and other countries where these partnerships are quite prevalent. 444 00:49:55,900 --> 00:50:04,450 The second thing is in your point about the organic knowledge or the indigenous knowledge, rather of communities. 445 00:50:04,450 --> 00:50:08,710 There's a documentary on National Geographic about the Okavango Delta, 446 00:50:08,710 --> 00:50:22,810 and in that there's there are many scientists and biologists, whites and one African woman that are included in the documentary. 447 00:50:22,810 --> 00:50:34,210 And the project is basically focussed on finding the source of the The Crystal River and they go to Angola and go on this expedition. 448 00:50:34,210 --> 00:50:37,180 And obviously there's a lot of funding that's gone into this. 449 00:50:37,180 --> 00:50:48,220 But what I found really interesting is that although the guides are interviewed in the documentary, they're not seen as experts, you know. 450 00:50:48,220 --> 00:50:56,680 And I think that professional title that we give people needs to extend the university and we need to figure 451 00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:03,280 out how we can do that through conversations and discourse around decolonising education more broadly, 452 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:10,000 because people's indigenous knowledge and people's organic knowledge is really fundamentally important. 453 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:16,360 And this goes to my concluding remarks as well that African Studies is a field 454 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:21,610 of scholarly enquiry to constantly interrogate epistemological methodology, 455 00:51:21,610 --> 00:51:26,110 theological, logical and theoretical approaches to the study of Africa in setting Africa and 456 00:51:26,110 --> 00:51:30,940 its people at the centre of that interrogation as subjects rather than objects. 457 00:51:30,940 --> 00:51:32,770 Because even in this documentary, 458 00:51:32,770 --> 00:51:45,040 where you can see the contributions of these local people who are experts of the Okavango Delta because they live in the occupied Delta, 459 00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:49,690 the theoretical and methodological frameworks don't don't see them as experts in 460 00:51:49,690 --> 00:51:55,360 the same way that a biologist from South Africa who's a white Ph.D. graduate, 461 00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:03,190 is seen as an expert. But beyond that as well, I think that decolonisation is not just about representation in an oppressive system, 462 00:52:03,190 --> 00:52:10,450 but about reimagining and creating a different system. So I agree with you and me that we need to seek out money, 463 00:52:10,450 --> 00:52:17,650 but we also need to figure out how we're going to disrupt the systems that make it so difficult for us to do, 464 00:52:17,650 --> 00:52:25,060 to create and to produce the knowledge that is needed, fundamentally needed in this really, really sick world. 465 00:52:25,060 --> 00:52:27,880 And it's much more about organic and structural change. 466 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:32,800 It's about equalising the playing field, not just for the sake of equalising the playing field, 467 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:39,850 not just for the sake of having black academics on the playing field, but for social justice and in the fight for social justice. 468 00:52:39,850 --> 00:52:41,650 There are no single issue struggles. 469 00:52:41,650 --> 00:52:50,560 So in the same way that FeesMustFall and movements that have managed to really put these issues on the international agenda, 470 00:52:50,560 --> 00:53:01,480 there's also an equal need to protect these these movements and the legacy of these movements because they're very easy to destroy. 471 00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:11,830 And when you hear politicians or academics at Oxford speak about RhodesMustFall, for example, 472 00:53:11,830 --> 00:53:24,160 and how Oxford has a fundamental space as the prime knowledge production system in the world, we also need to remind them of those that came before. 473 00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:31,930 So when we're doing tours for first years at Oxford, it can't be that they think that Oxford is one of the first universities in the world. 474 00:53:31,930 --> 00:53:36,220 We need to show that Africa has always played a huge part. 475 00:53:36,220 --> 00:53:41,950 Why do we, for example, where the robes that we do? Where does Starbucks come from, for example? 476 00:53:41,950 --> 00:53:47,770 These questions, I think, are also important because it speaks to the cultural capital that Oxford has created, 477 00:53:47,770 --> 00:53:58,720 which is not due to its own efforts, but is due to the efforts globally and also of African countries and African people. 478 00:53:58,720 --> 00:54:06,280 So as a student from the continent coming in, it's been very weird how so much is kind of taken for granted about the cultural capital. 479 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:11,380 And to be quite honest with you, I didn't come here because of Oxford's brand value. 480 00:54:11,380 --> 00:54:15,640 I came here because I was escaping a very toxic political space at home, 481 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:20,870 but also because I wanted to be in a class full of African students from all over the continent. 482 00:54:20,870 --> 00:54:26,810 And I wanted to meet people from all over the world. How do we create these spaces in Africa? 483 00:54:26,810 --> 00:54:29,660 How do we ensure that we bridge the gaps? 484 00:54:29,660 --> 00:54:35,390 And I guess from a South African perspective, this historically white universities and these historically black universities, 485 00:54:35,390 --> 00:54:40,310 how do we ensure that some of the collaborative efforts that the African Studies Centre, 486 00:54:40,310 --> 00:54:47,450 for example, embarks on are not just with the historically white universities in South Africa, but are also with historically black universities. 487 00:54:47,450 --> 00:54:54,020 I mean, Wits University, my alma mater. They claim Nelson Mandela as an alumni. 488 00:54:54,020 --> 00:54:58,850 But Nelson Mandela was actually financially and academically excluded from the university, 489 00:54:58,850 --> 00:55:07,850 and he was told when they appeal the exclusion that this is not for black people and for women. 490 00:55:07,850 --> 00:55:16,880 And so today, even though we've made quite a few significant wins through these movements, the struggle continues. 491 00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:27,830 And I definitely think there's a lot of room for collaboration that disrupts not just collaboration that finds representation in an unjust system. 492 00:55:27,830 --> 00:55:37,040 So that's my thinking of. 493 00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:41,310 I wish that we could stay at home, right? I really do. 494 00:55:41,310 --> 00:55:47,180 I want to the next year just by extending our heartfelt thanks to all of you for coming and for sticking it through 495 00:55:47,180 --> 00:55:52,180 with us and tell us how I hope this will be a little bit of time to engage more directly with the panellists. 496 00:55:52,180 --> 00:55:58,280 But Vernon, guys, thank you so much for coming out from the West Coast of the U.S. We appreciate your being here. 497 00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:03,680 Thank you. I thank you so much for everything that you do and continue to do, 498 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:09,650 especially considering the barriers that you have to overcome to keep doing the work that you do. 499 00:56:09,650 --> 00:56:11,510 Cesar, I hope you'll have a chance to speak with. 500 00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:20,660 Cesar Caesar's educational experience is especially dynamic, but I think his is also even emphasised by how humble he's been in this conversation. 501 00:56:20,660 --> 00:56:25,590 Cesar has completely revolutionised the trajectory between primary education at Oxford. 502 00:56:25,590 --> 00:56:29,330 I let him talk some of me if you if you're willing to speak with him about that. 503 00:56:29,330 --> 00:56:40,400 And of course, if I'm missing you so much for responding to the call to do this lecture for the second time, we promise we'll try. 504 00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:46,280 We'll try not to bang on your girlfriend. Everyone, everyone just looks forward to hearing your remarks. 505 00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:52,940 And of course, to our guests who came this evening. Professor Bailey, Associate Professor Mary Pinochet to go Maxine. 506 00:56:52,940 --> 00:56:58,250 Thank you so much for coming. I really encourage all of you to try and register for the Oxford African Conference, 507 00:56:58,250 --> 00:57:03,290 which begins on Friday and ends on Saturday with a game at Exeter College. 508 00:57:03,290 --> 00:57:19,554 Otherwise, this concludes that that and your return. Thank you so much for coming. He was one of.