1 00:00:02,310 --> 00:00:14,620 Larry Tom, 2021 to deal, we have press Peter Scherrer, emeritus professor of anthropology at the University of Amsterdam, 2 00:00:14,620 --> 00:00:22,560 who is perhaps most famous for the modernity of witchcraft. His book, Politics and Andy, are caught in post-colonial Africa. 3 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,200 Now, we were just talking about the possibility of mobilising, 4 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:34,720 which which is seen to have been making it possible for him to see everyone should leave before we started the second presenter. 5 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:45,990 Is that Dr. Rojas Baraquio, which is, you know, lecturer India Anthropology Department at the Mercy of Beats in global Johannesburg, South Africa. 6 00:00:45,990 --> 00:00:56,690 We'll be speaking to the theme of unloose. So crafty. Three mainstream sexual transgressions, an illicit reckoning in post-colonial Africa. 7 00:00:56,690 --> 00:01:05,840 So please join me as well. I mean, this us, the sheriff and all of you. 8 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:07,020 Well, thank you very much. 9 00:01:07,020 --> 00:01:19,580 Uh, well, uh, we would like to start by thanking Wilin and Peter Brook for inviting us to speak in the series for this town. 10 00:01:19,580 --> 00:01:24,860 We should say that this paper is part of our collaborative project on Freemasonry, 11 00:01:24,860 --> 00:01:31,070 post-colonial homophobia and illicit enrichment in Cameroon and Gabon. 12 00:01:31,070 --> 00:01:36,620 And Brenda, I don't know whether your screen is shared so that everyone sees this light. 13 00:01:36,620 --> 00:01:41,870 If you could load those, please. I am on it. 14 00:01:41,870 --> 00:01:49,250 Thank you so. Although we begun work on this project in 2017, 15 00:01:49,250 --> 00:01:59,200 we arrive at these shared interests from our various experiences while living on or working in the field in Cameroon. 16 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:04,000 As Peter tells it in his 2016 address to the African Studies Association, 17 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,980 he had long been familiar with some rumours from Freemasonry and the links to homosexuality that 18 00:02:08,980 --> 00:02:15,760 people often make in Cameroon during the time he was doing fieldwork in the 70s and the 80s there. 19 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:23,680 In my case, in the 1990s and early 2000s, I grew up in Dwolla, Cameroon's largest urban centre. 20 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:32,380 Rumours about Freemasonry and other Western esoteric societies like are more lopera. 21 00:02:32,380 --> 00:02:39,760 No one to support. Those rumours were common during this time. 22 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:48,070 I also often heard gossip about the elite and all people considered to be wealthy being associated with these esoteric societies. 23 00:02:48,070 --> 00:02:56,350 But it was especially while conducting fieldwork on elites and political mobilisation in Cameroon for my doctorate dissertation between 24 00:02:56,350 --> 00:03:06,670 2010 and 2012 that I became struck by the frequent conversations and suspicions that link elites in Cameroon to these esoteric circles, 25 00:03:06,670 --> 00:03:16,510 as well as the neuro explosive accusations levelled against so-called homosexuals from the late 2005 onwards. 26 00:03:16,510 --> 00:03:20,830 We will talk about these explosive accusations in a moment. 27 00:03:20,830 --> 00:03:24,760 Indeed, much of the context for the ongoing discussions on post-colonial homophobia 28 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:30,400 in Cameroon can be traced to that explosive moment in the mid 2000s overall. 29 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:37,180 Our effort is to make sense of the public representations and popular assumptions that are held about the power, 30 00:03:37,180 --> 00:03:45,560 influence and actions of Freemasonry and similar secret societies in contemporary society in Cameroon, 31 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:52,870 redrawing historical and anthropological approaches to study these rumours that link Freemasonry and homosexuality. 32 00:03:52,870 --> 00:04:01,720 And our demographic data is drawn from observations, interviews and a variety of documentary resources in terms of observations. 33 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:11,440 This is grounded primarily in our long familiarity with the context in which these rumours thrive. 34 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:17,680 In addition, we will draw on a medley of conversations and observations on these developments and analyse this in relation 35 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:26,830 to some of the archival material that we have managed to gather during the time of our visit in Paris, 36 00:04:26,830 --> 00:04:42,920 London and in Peter's case, Belgium, as well as conversations with some Matson's in in these places. 37 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:52,610 An important aspect for us is also the wide variety of material or documentary material that exist within the public domain, 38 00:04:52,610 --> 00:04:56,810 but particularly within the public sphere in relation to these questions, 39 00:04:56,810 --> 00:05:03,230 notably autobiographical material, especially news reporting, 40 00:05:03,230 --> 00:05:15,720 press and audiovisual and interviews that are freely available on YouTube or other Internet social media sites like Facebook. 41 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,190 And I know that's an important aspect of all of these, therefore, 42 00:05:19,190 --> 00:05:28,760 for us is also how to relate these African realities to some of the discussions and create theory about the power of the illness, as we shall see. 43 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:33,860 The questions and problems posed by the issues we raised and discourse in this country and contexts in relation 44 00:05:33,860 --> 00:05:40,880 to the link between Freemasonry and homophobia could be traced in some way or another elsewhere in Africa, 45 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:49,490 mainly through the focus on court in marginal rates. Hence, we try to contribute to two strands of analysis in African studies. 46 00:05:49,490 --> 00:05:58,460 The first is related to debates on the current struggles over homosexuality and its meanings in Africa and notably in this regard. 47 00:05:58,460 --> 00:06:06,230 We were particularly inspired by the work of Stephen Pier's, 48 00:06:06,230 --> 00:06:21,070 who's I think a risk paper is a 2016 paper on a similar theme in the context of Nigeria opens up very interesting avenues for discussions. 49 00:06:21,070 --> 00:06:26,680 These struggles are part of the broader struggles for sexual sexual citizenship in Africa, 50 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:31,630 notably the claims for sexual rights in the face of state repression. 51 00:06:31,630 --> 00:06:38,110 Our study, therefore, shows the usefulness of taking a wider and more historic side view by focussing on these rumours. 52 00:06:38,110 --> 00:06:40,780 Although this will not be part of the talk today. 53 00:06:40,780 --> 00:06:49,750 The second dimension of our efforts in using this material is to underline how the struggles of our sexual citizenship are also commentaries 54 00:06:49,750 --> 00:06:57,700 on the broader post-colonial anxieties and debates about colonialism and decolonisation that define the contemporary moment in Africa. 55 00:06:57,700 --> 00:07:03,730 Indeed, part of our effort in this project is also about building on earlier debates about French African relations, 56 00:07:03,730 --> 00:07:08,770 notably the criticisms of its Nebulas and D'Agata in the framework of France free. 57 00:07:08,770 --> 00:07:16,000 We use these to examine homosexuality, how homosexuality is generated fully connected to Freemasonry as a colonial and 58 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:21,100 post-colonial institution for the sexual subjection of African elites by their Western, 59 00:07:21,100 --> 00:07:31,040 particularly French counterpart. In the Korean and Japanese context, that interest was here in the context of the project. 60 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,930 This, of course, imaginary evokes illicit enrichment by elites through same sex practises that 61 00:07:35,930 --> 00:07:43,500 in some way also imply a magical interpretation of elite power and wealth. 62 00:07:43,500 --> 00:07:52,620 So up to this point, what I have been trying to say is, you know, provide some kind of background to how we came about, 63 00:07:52,620 --> 00:08:05,100 this subject on how we have gone about doing the work on the ground and the slides that Brenda has been showing so far relate to that. 64 00:08:05,100 --> 00:08:09,090 Now, I would like to then try to see treat what I know. 65 00:08:09,090 --> 00:08:18,160 So cracy the term itself means for us and how how we come to eat. 66 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:23,530 So, Brenda, please, the next slide after this one. 67 00:08:23,530 --> 00:08:28,550 The next one. Next one. 68 00:08:28,550 --> 00:08:36,190 Yes. So in many ways, one should think of no secrecy as an image. 69 00:08:36,190 --> 00:08:45,550 Eluding image of the Alps as a side of pop power. Cameroonians began using this term excuse me, shortly after the live televised, 70 00:08:45,550 --> 00:08:54,210 one of most senior Victor Ternium Barcott, they Albi Shovel vielen day on Christmas Day of December 20, 2005. 71 00:08:54,210 --> 00:08:59,280 Also nearby court denounced what he described as a global conspiracy by Western governments to 72 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:04,860 destroy the social value of a heterosexual family through the promotion of same sex rights. 73 00:09:04,860 --> 00:09:10,350 Even more on right in front of the country's elite with President Beer and several ministers of his 74 00:09:10,350 --> 00:09:16,980 government in attendance backward now the country's elites for their role in satanic esoteric associations, 75 00:09:16,980 --> 00:09:25,560 as well as in imposing simsek practises as a condition for access to social mobility, particularly for the youth. 76 00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:33,780 The public response to these someone was dramatic, both in terms of the ways that someone was amplified by the media, particularly the press, 77 00:09:33,780 --> 00:09:41,760 on several elite political actors and the consequences of these responses for people in the same sex communities in the country. 78 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:51,090 So. Perhaps I just go quickly to listing some of those and the elements in these public responses that we are talking about. 79 00:09:51,090 --> 00:09:57,420 So it's a very notable element of that. Very soon after the sermon, someone was December. 80 00:09:57,420 --> 00:10:06,210 By February, the first list was published. Brenda, you're going too fast. 81 00:10:06,210 --> 00:10:12,930 So someone was published. Sorry, I'm getting mixed up. 82 00:10:12,930 --> 00:10:17,190 So so the public response came very quickly. 83 00:10:17,190 --> 00:10:25,740 In February, the press picked up on the someone and one of the things that became a common theme was that 84 00:10:25,740 --> 00:10:34,350 various newspapers of dubious renown would publish so-called list of homosexuals in Cameroon. 85 00:10:34,350 --> 00:10:39,630 They called them the top 50, the top saying count homosexuals, the top 50 homosexuals. 86 00:10:39,630 --> 00:10:53,250 And all of these would usually be major political figures, all notable figures in the domain of sports or the cultural industry. 87 00:10:53,250 --> 00:11:06,030 And in in turn, what is scandalous news is so-called press outings deed was to compel the elites to respond in various ways. 88 00:11:06,030 --> 00:11:14,880 One of the ways they responded was for many of the leads to, you know, file lawsuits in court and threaten these newspapers. 89 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:26,580 Another way they responded for some of them was to go on to explain to some of these newspapers that they are not Freemasons by writing, 90 00:11:26,580 --> 00:11:35,460 writing either right of response or going on to radio and TV shows to give interviews, you know, 91 00:11:35,460 --> 00:11:44,940 explaining themselves and trying to declare themselves innocent or these accusations and suspicions. 92 00:11:44,940 --> 00:11:55,710 And I think this team is one of the things that one of our colleagues, Sibylle NIAC, has drawn out attention to the particularity of these. 93 00:11:55,710 --> 00:12:00,870 And Shannah have started talking about doing something in relation to that. 94 00:12:00,870 --> 00:12:11,580 At some point, the what she called the confessional model that came out of that from from the standpoint of the elites. 95 00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:22,230 But another reaction that that these someone triggered was also that government authorities became very anxious to distance 96 00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:32,370 themselves from any appearance that they would be there would be passive in relation to same sex claims regarding same sex rights. 97 00:12:32,370 --> 00:12:40,860 And therefore, there was a serious crackdown on same sex people in Cameroon, particularly in the urban centres. 98 00:12:40,860 --> 00:12:46,470 And, of course, that opened the door to all kinds of abuses and repression. 99 00:12:46,470 --> 00:12:58,270 And one of the things that is here on the on this slide that you see is that the repression became so intense that it was even murderous. 100 00:12:58,270 --> 00:13:09,390 So people started killing people they think are guilty of same sex acts, all that affirm that same sex people. 101 00:13:09,390 --> 00:13:18,770 So in notable case was Rogier Claughton, Betty and Lim, BMB also, and they were killed in their houses in terrible conditions. 102 00:13:18,770 --> 00:13:27,030 And France Venkat, the French International TV Station, made a detailed documentary on the subject. 103 00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:36,570 And in response, the government was very haymond in denying that it's leading a campaign of repression against same sex people. 104 00:13:36,570 --> 00:13:50,270 And of course, that's that whole episode. I think we tried to describe in a paper there has just been published last week with African affairs. 105 00:13:50,270 --> 00:13:59,670 And so perhaps then one should then say that parallel to these or in the wake of these various responses, 106 00:13:59,670 --> 00:14:05,130 what also happened was that it triggered an explosive public discussion of the role of Western interests, 107 00:14:05,130 --> 00:14:12,790 Terek associations, especially Freemasonry and more, and their connexions to these threat or evil of homosexuality. 108 00:14:12,790 --> 00:14:19,740 A notable character in this regard is activating it. Next slide, please. 109 00:14:19,740 --> 00:14:27,810 ATABAY And it was a young a young teacher in the university in Yaoundé. 110 00:14:27,810 --> 00:14:33,240 Yandi, too, I think. And he he was a Catholic. 111 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,650 So it's perhaps important to say that a very prominent Catholic. 112 00:14:37,650 --> 00:14:52,260 But he was also a notable figure in condemning what he saw as the hold of the evil stronghold of Masonic or esoteric lodges in Cameroon. 113 00:14:52,260 --> 00:14:57,480 And notably the desire or project to impose homosexuality on the society. 114 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:06,900 And he he wrote this pamphlet, which a very long title, Logic Datcher, the Lorsch. 115 00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:11,990 They can see that is very long, but in the end, he ends with the notion. 116 00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:21,050 No magico are now, which is basically the combination of magic and the inner. 117 00:15:21,050 --> 00:15:28,190 And so this in itself became a new element in the whole the whole episode. 118 00:15:28,190 --> 00:15:32,480 It became quite a it provided fodder for even more discussions, 119 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:40,700 even more suspicions on elites and on Freemasonry and other esoteric associations in Cameroon. 120 00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:47,540 And perhaps a last element to add to that tableau that that I'm trying to to describe is they 121 00:15:47,540 --> 00:15:53,450 that all of this is taking place and unfolding in a context of spectacular alyda enrichment. 122 00:15:53,450 --> 00:15:59,810 I mean, stunning levels of elite corruption and general material dictate that that one witness is in Cameroon. 123 00:15:59,810 --> 00:16:08,930 The roads are terrible. There are there's no social service provision that is can be considered acceptable water. 124 00:16:08,930 --> 00:16:17,540 The public provision of water is almost absent. Electricity is constantly subjected to cuts. 125 00:16:17,540 --> 00:16:23,510 And so for many people, disaffected Cameroonians, people like a net. 126 00:16:23,510 --> 00:16:34,290 And the archbishop condemned by court became somewhat populist figures who spoke to the concerns of the common man against the elite. 127 00:16:34,290 --> 00:16:42,020 And I think that is it's a very important point to emphasise here that the the enrichment of the elite in incourt, 128 00:16:42,020 --> 00:16:53,490 in a in a context of generalised misery made the context very propitious to these kinds of populist responses to to that 129 00:16:53,490 --> 00:17:02,510 someone and perhaps their last lasting to say then that this focus on the image of secrecy has not faded or receded. 130 00:17:02,510 --> 00:17:06,950 Rather, we find it reinvigorated and reproduce in new ways. 131 00:17:06,950 --> 00:17:17,000 The most recent example was that the bishops of Cameroon wrote a pastoral letter on Freemasonry Morosi Christianism on witchcraft in May 2019. 132 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:23,270 And these caused even lost more stare into this conversation. 133 00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:29,570 So they are not we are not talking here about something that happened in 2005 and has gone away. 134 00:17:29,570 --> 00:17:38,900 It has actually stayed on and become amplified and is therefore for us at least very important to and to unpack. 135 00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:42,770 So we could spend time trying to unpack these materials associated with each of 136 00:17:42,770 --> 00:17:47,000 the materials associated with each of these elements that I have just listed. 137 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:54,140 We will not do this here, partly because some of our discussions of these materials have been the subject of our recent publications on the theme, 138 00:17:54,140 --> 00:17:56,510 as well as those of all Communion colleagues. 139 00:17:56,510 --> 00:18:06,850 And most recent case is Patrica Windows book No Sex is On Rublev Post-colonial, which was published last year. 140 00:18:06,850 --> 00:18:13,210 And we think it is therefore more interesting to share with you how we tried to mobilise this material 141 00:18:13,210 --> 00:18:20,060 to discuss some of the issues around the idea of the anos as a source of power and enrichment. 142 00:18:20,060 --> 00:18:25,370 But it is also useful to say quickly that although our primary side of discussion for these people has come Roon, 143 00:18:25,370 --> 00:18:31,910 the use of unloose autocracy as a playful form of denunciation of the elite in relation to same sex issues is not limited 144 00:18:31,910 --> 00:18:40,940 to Cameroon after the Gabonese Senate voted in favour of the decriminalisation of same sex in in in Gabon in last year, 145 00:18:40,940 --> 00:18:50,990 June of last year. Popular commentary in Gabon was also about how the government by and used to proceed had triumphed over south to the Western Power, 146 00:18:50,990 --> 00:18:55,220 Western esoteric associations and gay lobbies. 147 00:18:55,220 --> 00:19:05,870 So, so. So it is important to to say that the notion and also cracy has its variant in neighbouring Gabon, where they talk about unused to cracy. 148 00:19:05,870 --> 00:19:13,790 And Peter, you know, can say perhaps more about what it means, 149 00:19:13,790 --> 00:19:22,390 what it means in terms of these that attempt to play around with the idea of democracy or plutocracy, I think. 150 00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:26,510 And most aggressive goes closer to the ideal plutocracy, 151 00:19:26,510 --> 00:19:40,040 whereas unuseful crises is an attempt to make jest of claims by these governments to be democratic, particularly Biette in the case of beer. 152 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:47,390 So there is no doubt that the acquisition of colonialism is implied in the denunciation of Freemasonry and homosexuality and claims for same sex. 153 00:19:47,390 --> 00:19:54,830 Right. As one African cultural anthropologist, Buzz Bazian, you has described the struggles. 154 00:19:54,830 --> 00:20:03,890 Brenda, please, the slides. I think we are behind now by three or four. 155 00:20:03,890 --> 00:20:07,480 You have described how these struggles over homosexuality in Cameroon as the 156 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:14,750 questionable effort to define questionable efforts to define a homosexual patriotism. 157 00:20:14,750 --> 00:20:24,770 Similarly, between 2009 and 2010, sexuality policy was a global forum for research and activism on on sexuality and political change around the world. 158 00:20:24,770 --> 00:20:28,430 Supported by major organisations like the Ford Foundation, 159 00:20:28,430 --> 00:20:35,370 organised a series of regional dialogues on sexuality and geopolitics in Asia, Latin America and Africa. 160 00:20:35,370 --> 00:20:42,740 And one of the volumes that then emerged from these meetings titled Sexuality and Politics Regional Dialogue from the Global South. 161 00:20:42,740 --> 00:20:48,050 The editors Sonia Correa and her colleagues remarked that at the African Regional Dialogue, 162 00:20:48,050 --> 00:20:54,400 the question of colonial legacies received the most attention. Yes. 163 00:20:54,400 --> 00:21:00,100 I'm back in. Well, there's some that some. 164 00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:05,170 So what is this image of. And also cracy or almost to cracy that we talk about? 165 00:21:05,170 --> 00:21:10,500 And if only to clarify it. How do we engage? It's fogginess as it appears in a variety of forms and discourse. 166 00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:17,260 It is that link struggles for symbols, for sexual rights in Cameroon to magical or invisible power. 167 00:21:17,260 --> 00:21:22,090 So far, that has been very liberal interest in Freemasonry and anthropology often studies. 168 00:21:22,090 --> 00:21:32,440 Two notable examples of anthropological discussions include Eibner Cohan's 1981 book on the Dramaturgy of Power, 169 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:39,190 in which he talks about Freemasonry in the context of Syria, Leone as a court of elite alertness, as he wrote. 170 00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:41,380 Then in late in 1970, 171 00:21:41,380 --> 00:21:49,900 one would hear gossip in Freetown to the effect that all appointments and promotions in certain establishments were cooked in the lodges. 172 00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:59,650 Sonic lodges, and these should hardly be surprising because this was a society where patronage, rank, patronage and rank count for a great deal, 173 00:21:59,650 --> 00:22:08,820 and Cameroon and Gabon had similar societies where patronage and drank are all about our very important aspect of everyday reality. 174 00:22:08,820 --> 00:22:15,060 And as Peter would often remind us of what Cameroonians say and ground, 175 00:22:15,060 --> 00:22:22,090 Nikpai Amputee's is a very common popular saying in Cameroon for Leelee Mahmood, 176 00:22:22,090 --> 00:22:31,300 whose book was published in 2014 examining the female lodges Masonic lodges in the context of Italy. 177 00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:40,690 It is it. It is. She was expressing a very strong disappointment at the fact that anthropologists have not been attentive to Freemasonry, 178 00:22:40,690 --> 00:22:53,530 if only because it would have been important to see how Freemasonry, a colonial form and even ontime Masonic sentiments that were common in Europe, 179 00:22:53,530 --> 00:22:58,090 how it is that these have played out in post-colonial in other settings around the world, 180 00:22:58,090 --> 00:23:07,270 particularly in post-colonial settings, where these forms could be easily subject to all kinds of suspicions. 181 00:23:07,270 --> 00:23:09,820 And so for us, 182 00:23:09,820 --> 00:23:20,080 we we we thought it's important to say that that these are basically the few things that anthropologists have been saying about Freemasonry. 183 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:26,740 And for us, it was kind of interesting to say, well, what what could we add to this? 184 00:23:26,740 --> 00:23:31,060 So this is particularly relevant in the context of post-colonial settings, 185 00:23:31,060 --> 00:23:36,720 because it particularly in the context of Francophone Africa, these networks are very important. 186 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:47,650 They're sizeable and they determine at least they would like people to believe that a determined a lot of what happens in those contexts. 187 00:23:47,650 --> 00:23:56,740 I think it's much more the case that historians have done or been doing more work in relation to Freemasonry and basically trying 188 00:23:56,740 --> 00:24:09,370 to do so by mapping the history of of the emergence of Masonic lodges in on the continent and to the extent that that is the case. 189 00:24:09,370 --> 00:24:19,850 Often they try to show how these were crucial to the project of empire. 190 00:24:19,850 --> 00:24:24,980 We have electorate to approach these images through the idiom of magical or court politics. 191 00:24:24,980 --> 00:24:34,170 And this is partly because this is how people in Cameroon and other settings make. 192 00:24:34,170 --> 00:24:38,870 In between Freemasonry, homosexuality and elite power and enrichment. 193 00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:46,430 But we also do so properly in relation to similar terms by several of our African colleagues, notably a human being based on Joseph Tonda. 194 00:24:46,430 --> 00:24:54,060 To understand what may initially appear like a sudden interest in or anxieties over these images of the años as a side of power, 195 00:24:54,060 --> 00:24:58,130 as Dundar writes in his last book, Imperialism of Post-colonial. 196 00:24:58,130 --> 00:25:05,730 We live in a time of proliferation of images that could simultaneously fascinate, seduce, astonish. 197 00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:09,890 For this obsess or press, suppress, hunt. 198 00:25:09,890 --> 00:25:18,510 And in the end, even colonise the imaginary sense subconscious of individuals and groups, not only in Africa, but also in Europe, America. 199 00:25:18,510 --> 00:25:22,470 He may be the next slide, may be the next slide. Brenda. 200 00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:28,020 Yes, Brenda. Thank you. The next slide. Yes, Dad. 201 00:25:28,020 --> 00:25:39,060 Yes. Yeah, we we we juxtapose even complicate the two images of four proposed by A human being B and Tundra. 202 00:25:39,060 --> 00:25:52,230 On the one hand, whether the animals as a side of power is a side of depletion into in a test case on in in the case of a human being, 203 00:25:52,230 --> 00:25:57,540 B, that the animals as a side of pi is a side of empowerment. 204 00:25:57,540 --> 00:26:09,060 And so we we wondered what it might mean to think about the struggles of other animals, rather, in relation to the idea of enrichment by doing. 205 00:26:09,060 --> 00:26:19,620 And we try to do so initially, first by going back to to the work of a German colonial ethnographer assessment. 206 00:26:19,620 --> 00:26:28,850 And then I think here Peter will take take over and drive the presentation to the end. 207 00:26:28,850 --> 00:26:34,460 Okay. Is that OK? Brenda, maybe you switch off to slide dispatch. 208 00:26:34,460 --> 00:26:42,340 I don't that important, Marcheline so little that it bought Branda. 209 00:26:42,340 --> 00:26:50,360 Can you take away the PowerPoint and just have me on the screen? 210 00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:54,330 Yes, they are healthy. OK, thanks a lot. OK. 211 00:26:54,330 --> 00:27:07,390 Well, I can be very brief because Ranch's said it all, but I want to thank also one in Oxford for allowing us to present our article here. 212 00:27:07,390 --> 00:27:13,930 And let me emphasise that for me, the whole project is about the need to understand this sentence, 213 00:27:13,930 --> 00:27:21,530 which is sort of an intensification of homophobia in Cameroon around 2005. 214 00:27:21,530 --> 00:27:23,870 I'm working on it since seventy one. 215 00:27:23,870 --> 00:27:34,280 And this sudden wave of homophobia, homosexuality becoming a public issue with true moral panic came for me as a complete surprise. 216 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:41,060 So now project for me is especially to understand how this is possible and what I 217 00:27:41,060 --> 00:27:47,180 should have known and not to be surprised then that issue in more specifically, 218 00:27:47,180 --> 00:27:51,970 it's a follow up to two articles published earlier in 2012. 219 00:27:51,970 --> 00:28:01,680 I published an article which this a Wando from Roger mentioned to Reddy and Graham read on Homophobia, Our Homophobic Africa very much. 220 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:08,510 Which question marks a leap of say much to show that you can't say the whole continent is homophobic, 221 00:28:08,510 --> 00:28:14,960 that it's nonsense, and that the politicisation of homosexuality at a major public. 222 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:22,730 It's a hot public issue. I follow plenty different trajectories of very different countries and Cameroon. 223 00:28:22,730 --> 00:28:30,680 I tried to follow that up by an article in 2017 to point out to the creeky role if 224 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:42,740 Freemasonry in to an intensification of moral panic about homosexual couple today. 225 00:28:42,740 --> 00:28:46,100 I want to follow up on what Roger said on this. Try it. 226 00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:50,600 Of Freemasonry. Homosexuality and illicit enrichment. 227 00:28:50,600 --> 00:29:02,240 That's the key terms in our project. I want to follow up what Richard said by emphasising that this entanglement of these three 228 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:10,180 issues as much longer geneology of both Freemasonry was a colonial imposition in Cameroon, 229 00:29:10,180 --> 00:29:14,060 and that is a colonial background to all deaths. 230 00:29:14,060 --> 00:29:20,360 But the special interest of Cameroon is that the link of transgressive sexuality 231 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:28,500 with illicit enrichment children has a much longer history in Cameroon, 232 00:29:28,500 --> 00:29:34,340 in the heart of the recent debates on the whole issue. 233 00:29:34,340 --> 00:29:43,700 Remember what you said about his newspapers publishing a list of prominent homosexuals and the moral panic about all that? 234 00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:54,320 There were two Cameroonian anthropologists who were very courageous. Charles Bhogle and Particular Window and Rochus quoted a particular one already. 235 00:29:54,320 --> 00:30:01,340 Continued working on the issue, was very courageous and both pointed to the work of God to testify on that. 236 00:30:01,340 --> 00:30:07,640 Russia, too. But she was just mentioning in German anthropologist who worked with the fund. 237 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:13,280 He spoke of the fun way. But these were fun. Does he speak a fundraiser? 238 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,800 He wrote it just after nineteen hundred, before the establishment of Colonial Rule. 239 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:29,750 So he stopped of before colour realism and relevant people go and wander the dug up 240 00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:37,790 Tashman because they internationally talked a lot about mental illness in young. 241 00:30:37,790 --> 00:30:48,350 I could make altogether too much fun. Charles Ajanta Witchcraft of Wealth and who is surprised it was related to same sex. 242 00:30:48,350 --> 00:30:57,280 Hope for sexual about that. It seems there is no homosexuality amongst the fun, but it is hidden under. 243 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:07,550 He speaks of a stack of Clag and the Eagles cover movement, but in every case of a prickly cover, let's call it like that. 244 00:31:07,550 --> 00:31:21,620 And that's this Bionicle map which got about Tessman that reproduced also a few fun stories about men who lived together and difficult Trey Rich. 245 00:31:21,620 --> 00:31:25,730 And then to add that they both had both stories. 246 00:31:25,730 --> 00:31:31,770 They die of a terrible disease or have a mix of stories and become a locust classic, 247 00:31:31,770 --> 00:31:36,770 as in gay studies on Africa, because they were reprinted in their mores. 248 00:31:36,770 --> 00:31:45,270 The collection on hold traces of ode to all traces of homosexuality. 249 00:31:45,270 --> 00:31:49,200 Man And that's why it's so interesting for us was the first two. 250 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,750 This association of aggressive health gas effects, 251 00:31:52,750 --> 00:31:59,920 which reaches I think that's a very important that's a topic we're really struggling with this link of transgressive sex, 252 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:05,190 notably homosexuality, is rich with ethically established. 253 00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:10,600 To talk a lot more about testimony is a fascinating figure, but very little side. 254 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:19,300 So let me just say it's interesting. Anthropology is that he more or less invented field to have before money, not one years before. 255 00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:29,080 Malinovsky was already willing to live for months on end in fund villages in very modest circumstances. 256 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:34,540 The strange thing is that he Komba combined us with a kind of military style of fieldworker. 257 00:32:34,540 --> 00:32:40,570 The days at his research station, which started at the beginning with Amirli kind of military parade, 258 00:32:40,570 --> 00:32:48,310 where all his assistants had to stand in line and salute the flag, that he did not hesitate to beat him up if they didn't do what he wanted. 259 00:32:48,310 --> 00:32:53,220 The amazing thing is also that apparently his assistance minded when equals calls them. 260 00:32:53,220 --> 00:32:57,940 My boys were very attached to him, that they saved his life several times. 261 00:32:57,940 --> 00:33:05,740 Any places they could get some medicine? Many would say that it is a fascinating thing. 262 00:33:05,740 --> 00:33:11,430 What is the interest? But I want to talk today about his specialities. 263 00:33:11,430 --> 00:33:17,810 Obsession. This dualism is fang fungus mcguffey, which is very lively and very, very useful. 264 00:33:17,810 --> 00:33:28,660 For the truth is the piling up of binary oppas. Titian's man vs. woman soldiers body good forces bad and builds are very complicated 265 00:33:28,660 --> 00:33:36,790 schemes of all these very vigorously scheming ties to binary opposites, 266 00:33:36,790 --> 00:33:44,970 which are in stark contrast to with ethnography, because in ethnography there's a lot more of fluidity, a lot more ambiguity. 267 00:33:44,970 --> 00:33:53,070 But he he condenses that in the overall scheme, that issue, which is very, very happy. 268 00:33:53,070 --> 00:34:10,250 Had there been any coma is for this witchcraft of medicine of witches is does fit in in these binary oppositions, if he sees it correctly from. 269 00:34:10,250 --> 00:34:17,090 And what is interesting for us is that his doubleness has been taken up by successes. 270 00:34:17,090 --> 00:34:27,100 A lot of frantic, logical studies on the fungo are kind of divided between group in central Cameroon fighting Kaposi. 271 00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:32,410 There were many people after him who wrote about him and they all faced his doubleness. 272 00:34:32,410 --> 00:34:36,160 Most of them could not read. That's why. Because it into German. 273 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:46,630 But what is striking is that on the point of being a cool, my having to do the same sex at his success is completely disagree. 274 00:34:46,630 --> 00:34:53,060 That Bill Sohi lobby of Toha may be known by some of the people present to hear East. 275 00:34:53,060 --> 00:34:56,920 But he's the big ethnographer of that group, wrote thousands of pages. 276 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:03,640 He left Detmer. He was the only one who could read Tessman because he read German and the Love what he did. 277 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:10,120 But he says on the point of same sex, he was completely fooled by his only four. 278 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:15,040 And that's why it's so interesting that in the heat of these recent discussions 279 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:22,970 about the least these prominent these newspaper articles on prominent homosexual. 280 00:35:22,970 --> 00:35:28,490 A young Cameroonian anthropologist to shake the hand, Cecil, are big guy. 281 00:35:28,490 --> 00:35:32,700 Maybe Brandy, you can show his slides. Because it's I. 282 00:35:32,700 --> 00:35:39,460 I think he should be shown to the people. What it is about a fish slide into PowerPoint. 283 00:35:39,460 --> 00:35:45,590 Is that possible, Granda to find it? Yeah, sorry, which which side is it? 284 00:35:45,590 --> 00:35:54,710 There you go. If you go added a PowerPoint after Tessman, there's a dash bigeye thing after these German. 285 00:35:54,710 --> 00:36:00,220 Oh I'm sorry. It's complicated. I'm sorry to make it such a mess of the. 286 00:36:00,220 --> 00:36:06,620 OK. Leave it, leave it. It's not that important. Erica, I think it's really very important. 287 00:36:06,620 --> 00:36:11,850 I big guy, I must have met him in 2005 often, but it won't need that. 288 00:36:11,850 --> 00:36:18,300 I don't even remember he died in 2008. Very, very sad because his work is really interesting. 289 00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:29,940 And he reacts to this whole debate on the list of these newspapers on prominent sexual. 290 00:36:29,940 --> 00:36:36,060 And he makes the following points and he's suddenly much more in agreement with vestments. 291 00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:47,270 He emphasised that for the big key that is this large group of which the fans are also part of, every human has a double systems. 292 00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:53,400 And he lay in shadow people call a view. And a view is nowadays always say just socially. 293 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:58,970 So it is a witchcraft, basically a term all over south. 294 00:36:58,970 --> 00:37:08,340 Which club? The problem the relation to this debate on homosexuality is that for some people to double, it's of the opposite sex. 295 00:37:08,340 --> 00:37:14,320 And that's the explanation of men who have a female double. Women who have a male double. 296 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:20,940 An easy explanation why some are homosexual. He speaks also of a homosexual homosexuality. 297 00:37:20,940 --> 00:37:25,800 So share in witchcraft, homosexuality of luxury. 298 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,500 He relates very directly to this idea. 299 00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:42,450 The Grand Liikanen did it people, the Freemasons, who are dabbling in these kinds of transgressive sexuality that leads to illicit Richmond. 300 00:37:42,450 --> 00:37:53,590 So he's right in the traces of Tashman with Tetch Publishers Association of Same Sex with enrichment of special interest. 301 00:37:53,590 --> 00:37:59,010 These other guys quite for teaching this overview of all the possible combinations of these expecta. 302 00:37:59,010 --> 00:38:03,880 So if he moves to double can be it can lead to a combination, 303 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:11,520 all sorts of combinations that they call can impose a no penetration younger partners to strengthen their own life force. 304 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:25,680 And he's very close to. But as you, Ben, the called cracy, the kind of homosexual anal intercourse as a supreme form of follow Crecy. 305 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:31,950 But it's also the inverse. It's also possible the Pacific Party can draw strength from such a cause. 306 00:38:31,950 --> 00:38:39,630 And anything that close on that theme, which is what you just mentioned, the sex as depletion, 307 00:38:39,630 --> 00:38:48,390 the active parties depleted is losing his life force to pacify the striking in all this. 308 00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:58,350 That's what I like about that's where it is, the great fluidity. While with Tessman binary poll opposition, a frozen mantic with abaca, 309 00:38:58,350 --> 00:39:05,550 the world of double doubles allows for all sorts of possible of all sorts of supposed to be lattes and. 310 00:39:05,550 --> 00:39:10,660 In this sense, his work relates very well to the work of another Cameroonian into politics. 311 00:39:10,660 --> 00:39:16,180 The branch of the arminio, he had wanted to be here today, but he had to go to Stella. 312 00:39:16,180 --> 00:39:27,000 Both young boys also come running from a very different part of Verona's abaca, and he works now in Cape Town. 313 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:35,430 He's recently writing a lot about the Africanness fortyish man in that department. 314 00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:45,600 It's personal. So, of course, with the African and African societies from societies, one could think of paedo but young. 315 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,030 You'll give some complete to a very different twist to the notion of frontier, 316 00:39:50,030 --> 00:39:58,550 not a frontier in the American sense, the frontier of a bulldozer which rose from one thing to the other. 317 00:39:58,550 --> 00:40:07,890 CNN destroys everything in its path but frontier as porous as the place of hybridisation. 318 00:40:07,890 --> 00:40:15,930 Maybe an African conception of the frontier. And in that sense, he speaks a lot about the incompleteness of the person. 319 00:40:15,930 --> 00:40:29,360 I think Debbie is very close to. Abigail's insistence on this doubleness of the person, these all these kind of combinations of very different. 320 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:36,890 Very different elements. Hobby Guy is also this very important phrase. 321 00:40:36,890 --> 00:40:41,680 I think he talks about sexuality as if he she do more. They do. 322 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:46,810 Witchcraft is for him. And a vision of the world. The world of the devil. 323 00:40:46,810 --> 00:40:53,700 And I think that's a lot better than. Terms like witchcraft. 324 00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:58,110 Jocelyn. Okay. And I have to stop by soon. 325 00:40:58,110 --> 00:41:02,380 Well, can you give me five more minutes? Yes. It. 326 00:41:02,380 --> 00:41:07,880 Thank you, guys. There's a lot more to do to be said on all this. 327 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:18,500 And it will be the last chapter of my book. But I want to finish by raising two points that stand out from the above and notably from because 328 00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:25,700 two nations entered that I think are very important for present day debates about homosexuality, 329 00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:33,980 LGB, BBT rights and all that, and maybe also for queer Syria. 330 00:41:33,980 --> 00:41:44,240 Creecy in relation to African Vienna. First of all, I think the link between transgressive sexuality and enrichment, 331 00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:53,430 provenance of their physical enrichment and the Parliament, on the other hand, differs more. 332 00:41:53,430 --> 00:41:58,730 It deserves more attention. Of course, that link is not special to Africa. 333 00:41:58,730 --> 00:42:05,060 In our book, we have, for instance, all session on the French novelist Onoe Hate about Zach. 334 00:42:05,060 --> 00:42:16,670 I was very surprised that he came in here so badly that he had to be there or hated by Zacher writes about looming in the 19th century Paris. 335 00:42:16,670 --> 00:42:25,010 What is striking that you see exactly the same mixture of transgressive sexuality and gender people, 336 00:42:25,010 --> 00:42:31,810 homosexual people, same sex intercourse and only increased access to higher circles? 337 00:42:31,810 --> 00:42:36,450 You is the kind of balancing point between these two. 338 00:42:36,450 --> 00:42:41,000 So, I mean, here is where they usually treat people. 339 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,860 And I think the that is more general evidence. 340 00:42:45,860 --> 00:42:59,330 The idea that homosexuality creates networks that give access to power, access to riches, access to whatever that actions is very widespread. 341 00:42:59,330 --> 00:43:07,400 But in Africa, the link with enrichment within reach within a great material sense is also very important. 342 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:12,050 Certainly not only in Cameroon and Testament's Cameroon or in present day Cameroon. 343 00:43:12,050 --> 00:43:15,980 It's all over Africa. Also, it goes back a long time. 344 00:43:15,980 --> 00:43:25,770 Reinfection temples are from Senegal, from the 18th century on this idea of health conscious sexuality, 345 00:43:25,770 --> 00:43:34,340 his material access to riches, to PowerMan and. 346 00:43:34,340 --> 00:43:46,870 Of course, that is it. It is a confusing point because faith is to come in all the psyche of the homosexual who is general rifle. 347 00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:55,520 The ugly anal intercourse is very far from the everyday reality of the homosexuals are locked up in prisons. 348 00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:00,060 They are certainly not these rich people. So did the image. 349 00:44:00,060 --> 00:44:08,210 So do the homosexual is very ambiguous. They confusing with even in the case of victims of police harassment. 350 00:44:08,210 --> 00:44:20,890 That is the ideas is to people how often of homosexuality as provided special access, providing special material advantages. 351 00:44:20,890 --> 00:44:34,440 I think in. So I think it's necessary to to to dissect that link between that effect and the serial empowerment, which every. 352 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:43,960 On the other hand, I think it may be necessary to have facial so the powerful association of same sex intercourse with witchcraft. 353 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:54,170 In many African context, this association is so powerful that which is used to anemically to talk about supposed homosexual people. 354 00:44:54,170 --> 00:45:04,140 He says. This guy is a witch. And when I asked why, it turned out it was about his inclination to same sex. 355 00:45:04,140 --> 00:45:10,770 Arrangements. Is quite clear why this suspect is absent in debates on decriminalisation. 356 00:45:10,770 --> 00:45:18,770 And he writes this to confirm a negative image of the home of the homosexual. 357 00:45:18,770 --> 00:45:24,290 Yet again, I think it's better to face to face that link to try to disentangle. 358 00:45:24,290 --> 00:45:34,070 The problem is, of course, the meaning of terms like witchcraft. So sort of he said she said here in Western terms that have a very negative, 359 00:45:34,070 --> 00:45:41,570 very pejorative implication, but it would have been appropriated on a large scale by Africans. 360 00:45:41,570 --> 00:45:48,800 The problem is that are bad translation of local no notions that have much more ambiguous meaning. 361 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:53,780 For instance, the fun notion of a fool, which I quoted to Ready to Shoot. 362 00:45:53,780 --> 00:45:58,520 That's when an Abbott character is a who is evil and dangerous. 363 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:03,560 But it is it can also help for healing riches and power. 364 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:09,080 And then so it's very ambiguous. What a fool really implies. 365 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:20,030 Does the association of same sex, the intercourse with this medicine of veils with witchcraft in general has many implications. 366 00:46:20,030 --> 00:46:23,990 I can only touch on broader theoretical implications of all this. 367 00:46:23,990 --> 00:46:34,220 But what we try to further develop is that a testable Fujitsu's convergence is ubiquitous theory has developed in the past. 368 00:46:34,220 --> 00:46:41,300 For instance, I was particularly struck by the book by Mario Maylee, a forerunner. 369 00:46:41,300 --> 00:46:49,340 The forerunner of Green Theory will rise very much in the same sense of homosexuality. 370 00:46:49,340 --> 00:46:58,340 As dangerous as fouth sexuality is capable of both affirming that transforming the capitalist world and all that. 371 00:46:58,340 --> 00:47:09,020 So I think that a very interesting. Convergence is dead, but I'm afraid my time is up, so I leave it at that. 372 00:47:09,020 --> 00:47:14,540 Thanks a lot. Thank you very much. 373 00:47:14,540 --> 00:47:18,540 He turned religious law. Fascinating talk with that. 374 00:47:18,540 --> 00:47:23,510 Now open it up for questions and comments. 375 00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:35,840 Maybe I should start by posing a question that you have in the context of the experience in Nigeria, I think in most parts of the continent. 376 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:44,600 One of the strongest arguments against, you know, a sexual transgression, but wildermuth sexuality as it's been defined, that is for. 377 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:51,560 I mean, and oftentimes people are not ready to listen to any contrary evidence is always the fact that it for it. 378 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:59,450 I think perhaps the next theme is about the fact that it has caused spiritual pollution of sort in the continent. 379 00:47:59,450 --> 00:48:08,680 But you I'm wondering how you see that in the context of the Najran experience, where the dominant discourse is really in relation to political power. 380 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:15,940 How is the fact that fact in court that homosexuality has caused political pollution? 381 00:48:15,940 --> 00:48:25,390 The forced coup in Nigeria in 1966, one of the most important accusations against the civilian government was that it was, 382 00:48:25,390 --> 00:48:30,170 you know, homosexuals, homosexual inclined. 383 00:48:30,170 --> 00:48:40,220 And then in 1990, almost four decades later, there was another coup that also described the military government as almost sexual, as intact. 384 00:48:40,220 --> 00:48:52,130 So in this experience, the question as to how it's always about political pollution that you treat sexual transgression constitute in in Nigeria. 385 00:48:52,130 --> 00:48:58,890 Beyond the question of the fact that these foreign or debt causes spiritual pollution, 386 00:48:58,890 --> 00:49:07,800 some I'm wondering whether the Najran experience is peculiar in that sense in terms of how that as we are DeSanto the struggle for power. 387 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:16,900 Surely we add that up there being that occurred twice in the struggle to iJet power by the military. 388 00:49:16,900 --> 00:49:23,240 Roger, do you want to come in? Rochus, are you there? 389 00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:31,450 Ranchers. I think really you have to amuse yourself. 390 00:49:31,450 --> 00:49:36,790 I don't see any. Is she alive? Is she dead? Yes. 391 00:49:36,790 --> 00:49:41,050 Do you want to enter? Shall I answer you? You start. Yes, I can. 392 00:49:41,050 --> 00:49:47,700 I can stop you. Thank you. Well, thank you very much. 393 00:49:47,700 --> 00:49:54,780 I think the in the in the article, there's a place where we we mentioned briefly. 394 00:49:54,780 --> 00:50:10,140 Indeed. The fact that the coup against Babangida in the 90s was once described in those terms as a bunch of a reaction against a bunch of homosexuals. 395 00:50:10,140 --> 00:50:18,390 And one of the things that we traders Babangida in Popular Remonstrances, these that he led a group of homosexuals. 396 00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:27,720 While he was in power. And it's an interesting parallel that you draw the parallel between that, 397 00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:35,150 the idea that sexual transgression generates spiritual polluted pollution and the contemporary idea or experience in Nigeria, 398 00:50:35,150 --> 00:50:47,130 that every moment when there's been a coup, there is porn of the popular response from below against those who seise power. 399 00:50:47,130 --> 00:50:52,020 Is that there are a group of homosexuals. Now, 400 00:50:52,020 --> 00:51:02,250 what is interesting for me in those terms is that we have to take into account the the repressive environment 401 00:51:02,250 --> 00:51:13,750 that people leave and how easy it is for them to use the language of homophobia as a tool of denunciation. 402 00:51:13,750 --> 00:51:16,230 So I think for me, that will be the first. 403 00:51:16,230 --> 00:51:25,140 The first thing is that in a context of repression, people in in I'm speaking here specifically to Nigeria, but of course, 404 00:51:25,140 --> 00:51:36,420 not only that repressive context are constantly in search of the the what you call the soft targets 405 00:51:36,420 --> 00:51:45,280 of victims and constantly the Figo of homosexuality is deemed to be that kind of soft target. 406 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,980 You can you can easily attack. 407 00:51:49,980 --> 00:52:03,960 So there's a kind of moral or mostly moral morality and that the people inhabit when they are dealing with with with the Figo, the homosexual. 408 00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:08,640 So that's one of the things. But in the context of Cameroon, also, 409 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:20,400 the notion of of sexual transgression as pollution is is interesting and is interesting precisely because of what Peter was saying, 410 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:24,320 that transgression is not necessarily leaved, it's its record. 411 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:30,030 Neither it is polluting, but it is also recognised as a pollution that is generated. 412 00:52:30,030 --> 00:52:38,040 And I think perhaps if we what would happen if we move that argument close to a Nigerian in the Nigerian context, 413 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:46,980 we transported what is what is generated when people say that the military, 414 00:52:46,980 --> 00:52:55,770 whatever military group of military people are homosexuals, what are the kinds of generative things people are talking about? 415 00:52:55,770 --> 00:53:00,150 I think for me, that is one way one should should do it. 416 00:53:00,150 --> 00:53:06,210 But I'm also very curious to hear more about what do you call political pollution. 417 00:53:06,210 --> 00:53:11,100 It will be interesting to flesh out the idea a little bit on and Tizard and see what 418 00:53:11,100 --> 00:53:17,130 what what it produces for the kinds of minorities that we we tried to do here. 419 00:53:17,130 --> 00:53:21,750 Can I come in? I want to ask. Yes. Do I have to? 420 00:53:21,750 --> 00:53:31,080 I think it is Nigeria. The rental, the exceptional Vistage argument to which sexuality is important is a colonial import. 421 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:38,490 We have an other article that will be Chapter four in the book on the Maroondah. 422 00:53:38,490 --> 00:53:46,840 Nowadays, the figure of Oju You You Lovers, was a French doctor who played an important role in decolonisation in the 50s. 423 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:54,330 In the bill after 2002 suddenly comes back. There's a whole rumour mongering about him that was, you know, I really wasn't homosexual. 424 00:53:54,330 --> 00:53:58,880 It was a free nation. And he has corrupted the whole movie lately. 425 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:04,690 So he'd kill a, B, o, the leaders of the two presidents. 426 00:54:04,690 --> 00:54:10,080 He was suspended for a second, but they were all the lover boys of LA. 427 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:14,670 And that's that's how homosexuality entered Cameroon. 428 00:54:14,670 --> 00:54:20,490 That make. And now, Callie. And yet the judge is quoted to already. 429 00:54:20,490 --> 00:54:27,660 He has this funny face. It does. It is one penis sufficient to corrupt to hold a leech. 430 00:54:27,660 --> 00:54:33,860 So dazzling in Nigeria. I argue with you. I'd like to trade and edge dead. 431 00:54:33,860 --> 00:54:38,160 But the idea, it's all imported from outside. Well, it's interesting in Cameroon. 432 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:45,080 And that's why testimony is so interesting that there's this young man outside the US. 433 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:50,110 Other ideas, but his homosexuality. Homosexual to the same sex. 434 00:54:50,110 --> 00:54:54,880 That's what it's like that's all low for. And that's Arbogast Trenkle. 435 00:54:54,880 --> 00:55:02,150 So he seems kind of open. So it is that it's all sorts of different ideas and different combinations. 436 00:55:02,150 --> 00:55:14,050 And as for Nigeria, I mean. Well, I think maybe, you know, the argument, Randi, matri head is the euro by feminist on his book on the Africa religion. 437 00:55:14,050 --> 00:55:18,940 But Randi was Fannie and I can be courageous. 438 00:55:18,940 --> 00:55:25,390 He did a book on Africa, Rage in between your two blind condom blay in Brazil. 439 00:55:25,390 --> 00:55:35,050 And he says that the role of homosexuality in Brazilian from Dunblane, many priests have to be possessed by spirit. 440 00:55:35,050 --> 00:55:42,160 And so it's like a horse. They are ridden, but they are to say that they mounted by by the spirit. 441 00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:49,420 And all they do is create in the same sense that really kind of the God that that was not a Brazilian invention. 442 00:55:49,420 --> 00:55:54,030 It's a feminist or with a bird. And it was dead already in your body. 443 00:55:54,030 --> 00:56:03,370 And he produces all these images of Sophie and their priest in Europe by religion and many of his Uraba French were furious about that. 444 00:56:03,370 --> 00:56:08,440 But I think his point is. Right. And he was very courageous in raising that. 445 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:18,670 So for Nigeria, there's also a lot of details that as a much older history, a much older geneology young Doudou in the north, 446 00:56:18,670 --> 00:56:26,140 but also in the south of same sex arrangements are holding it included homosexuality. 447 00:56:26,140 --> 00:56:30,460 The point is the same in Morocco. In Morocco, it's so old. 448 00:56:30,460 --> 00:56:35,380 Nowadays, people say homosexuality is a French imposition. Wow. 449 00:56:35,380 --> 00:56:41,950 It goes back for centuries and centuries. So I think that it's it's very interesting what you raise and his face. 450 00:56:41,950 --> 00:56:53,410 Interesting that his insistence on colonial corruption, that's much, much more the emphasis quite lately after 2000, 451 00:56:53,410 --> 00:56:59,980 that is after Internet produced images of gay identity that was global. 452 00:56:59,980 --> 00:57:03,640 That's the turning point. And then the backlash is dead. 453 00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:13,728 So could you. Thank you, David. Thank you very much.