1
00:00:02,290 --> 00:00:10,440
Well, today, we are hosting Parisa of Inclusion and Selena Morton.

2
00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:17,190
They will be speaking about their new book, An Expatriate Family in a Civil War.

3
00:00:17,190 --> 00:00:22,100
Sally is publisher and head of Oxford Publishing Services.

4
00:00:22,100 --> 00:00:29,990
She was educated at the University of Cape Town and she was arrested and in prison in place by every day African government.

5
00:00:29,990 --> 00:00:35,080
She left, sadly, gang came to London, where she became the nearby Shinseki,

6
00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:42,050
Okeechobee and Pantie Outputted and Tappet, her movement, where she met Robin.

7
00:00:42,050 --> 00:00:54,930
She has also worked for the U.N. agency at Queen Elizabeth Hours, editing publications before seeking of power and fan excellent condition services.

8
00:00:54,930 --> 00:01:02,850
Professor Cohen, he's currently a senior fellow at the centre Kellogg College of Thought.

9
00:01:02,850 --> 00:01:09,930
He has taught at investors in it Berdahl by me, Hammarsten, hard to want to bet.

10
00:01:09,930 --> 00:01:17,310
He's the author of several books, including Global Diaspora's An Introduction and Global Sociology.

11
00:01:17,310 --> 00:01:26,580
So today we'll be talking about their new book, which is based on your experience in Imagine I I single.

12
00:01:26,580 --> 00:01:31,830
Please join me in welcoming guest for today. So you're not.

13
00:01:31,830 --> 00:01:37,170
I've been over to you. Well, thank you all very much for your introduction.

14
00:01:37,170 --> 00:01:41,600
I have to admit to you that I thought it was going to be a book launch.

15
00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:52,320
And what I think a book launch is that everybody gathers around with some wine and some money to buy cheap copies of the book.

16
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,330
And you have a nice party and you take it home and you read it.

17
00:01:56,330 --> 00:02:02,220
Well, you did that to me as a book alone. This was very much more daunting.

18
00:02:02,220 --> 00:02:07,020
I have to say, it's a first for me.

19
00:02:07,020 --> 00:02:14,880
And I'd also like to thank Jemmy Alesina, who wrote the foreword and has been so supportive and so generous to us.

20
00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:22,410
Jemmy is also from Ibadan and was one of Robert's students at one point this year, wasn't he?

21
00:02:22,410 --> 00:02:30,360
Yeah. And he he we met him again when we were in South Africa recently, and that's where he's working now.

22
00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:38,550
And the third person I'd like to thank is Leo Xining, for whom I once did it become Senegal, like years ago.

23
00:02:38,550 --> 00:02:40,590
And to read, they helped focus.

24
00:02:40,590 --> 00:02:52,440
He's posted several extracts from this book onto the Web site of the review of African political economy and has been awfully helpful in many ways.

25
00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:57,120
Well, we had alluded to the books in his later two books.

26
00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:03,060
Let me just quickly just display it for you. There it is.

27
00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:12,690
And it's available on Amazon. Not that we want to give that wretched man, Jeff Bezos, more money than he already has.

28
00:03:12,690 --> 00:03:16,830
I think he's got more money than half the countries in Africa put together.

29
00:03:16,830 --> 00:03:21,660
But this is a good way of getting access to the book because it's available at least

30
00:03:21,660 --> 00:03:28,140
on Kindle form all over the world and about in eleven countries to be printed.

31
00:03:28,140 --> 00:03:33,720
And we've priced it at the minimum that Amazon would allow.

32
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:38,190
So you can tell us a little bit about the book and how it gets stolen.

33
00:03:38,190 --> 00:03:46,370
Yes, well, it came into being because we came lock down and the first thing you think when you're

34
00:03:46,370 --> 00:03:53,730
in lock down is maybe we should clear up some of those cupboards and file some drawers,

35
00:03:53,730 --> 00:04:03,610
because I have we I live in particular fear that we going to drop dead and somebody is going to have to pay it all out.

36
00:04:03,610 --> 00:04:09,270
So it started out with us looking through some stuff.

37
00:04:09,270 --> 00:04:15,810
And I came across all these old letters from this period in our life in Nigeria.

38
00:04:15,810 --> 00:04:21,840
And we thought, well, a lot of these are very interesting. They were about in a time that's long past.

39
00:04:21,840 --> 00:04:28,830
It was 54 years ago that we went out. And the world is a very, very different place.

40
00:04:28,830 --> 00:04:33,390
And people don't have letters anymore, don't write letters anymore.

41
00:04:33,390 --> 00:04:37,060
So I thought that I would transcribe some of them.

42
00:04:37,060 --> 00:04:42,600
So we had electronic versions and then we could throw out all the clutter.

43
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:50,220
And then this turned into a book which Robin and I wrote together or separately and together.

44
00:04:50,220 --> 00:04:57,790
But some say it's a bit of a hotchpotch. It's very personal and it's also fairly analytical.

45
00:04:57,790 --> 00:05:07,110
We're in the academic hasn't gotten his life, has done that here anyway.

46
00:05:07,110 --> 00:05:11,160
So this was set fifty four years ago.

47
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:21,570
And Serena and I both had emerge out of South Africa and we were very engaged with the anti-apartheid movement in different ways.

48
00:05:21,570 --> 00:05:25,680
But one, I was a student at the time at the NSC.

49
00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:35,370
I was also very attracted to Pan Africanism and in particular the Nigerian and Ghana students that I had met.

50
00:05:35,370 --> 00:05:46,110
They were fellow students, but in fact decided to do a PHC on the Nigerian labour movement, which was very active in 1964.

51
00:05:46,110 --> 00:05:54,100
There was a big general strike and it looked as if there might be a turn to the left in Nigeria immediately after independence.

52
00:05:54,100 --> 00:06:03,930
So that attracted me as a thesis topic. And I got very engaged in it, but both of us were very, I suppose,

53
00:06:03,930 --> 00:06:15,630
close to the anti colonial movement and certainly into the and and anti written anti-racist movement, anti-apartheid movement.

54
00:06:15,630 --> 00:06:29,640
And we decided to go out to do the research on my thesis, which was called something like Labour in Politics in Nigeria.

55
00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:34,660
So I went, boy with that. That was eventually published as a book in 1972.

56
00:06:34,660 --> 00:06:37,910
And you could look it up.

57
00:06:37,910 --> 00:06:49,790
And if you which church leader and I set out on the elder Dempster line, which was the old fashioned way of doing West Africa,

58
00:06:49,790 --> 00:07:00,190
the steam ships left from Lagos, Liverpool, got her away from Liverpool.

59
00:07:00,190 --> 00:07:11,520
I had read she seemed to be the Hagar's. You could you could carry on seated, get into the wrong way, right?

60
00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:17,160
Well, we sailed out. We went with some friends who were going as far as Ghana.

61
00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,780
And one of them had a little baby, 10 week old baby.

62
00:07:21,780 --> 00:07:30,270
And it got hotter and hotter and hotter. And we heard more and more rumours about what was happening in Nigeria.

63
00:07:30,270 --> 00:07:39,960
And then we got to Ghana. And it seemed like just about everybody on the boat got off and left.

64
00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,860
Carrying On2 to Lagos is sort of a ghost ship registry.

65
00:07:44,860 --> 00:07:52,530
Really, like a ghost ship. Yes. And one of the stewards, somebody said to one of the stewards, you're looking very miserable.

66
00:07:52,530 --> 00:08:02,670
And he said he was really, really worried about his friend, an Ebo steward who tried to get off in Ghana and they wouldn't let him.

67
00:08:02,670 --> 00:08:07,110
And he was frightened that he was going to be shot and killed.

68
00:08:07,110 --> 00:08:11,820
So I said, we can't have this. Let's go speak to the captain.

69
00:08:11,820 --> 00:08:15,720
We were very young and very bossy and cheeky in those days.

70
00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,310
And I remember going to see Captain Robert came with me.

71
00:08:20,310 --> 00:08:25,260
And he said, we can't make these kind of concessions.

72
00:08:25,260 --> 00:08:29,280
We have a good relationship with with the federal government.

73
00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:34,800
And we can't we can't protect these people. And he didn't have to come anyway.

74
00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:41,700
And I said, yes, but, you know, this is British territory and you've got to look after your crew.

75
00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:47,490
And he said, well, I was in the war and it's not that bad being shot.

76
00:08:47,490 --> 00:08:52,800
I said, well, I noticed you were shot anyway.

77
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:59,940
He came up as we were getting off the ship and he said he told me that they wouldn't be able to find him.

78
00:08:59,940 --> 00:09:07,710
I don't know whether that's true or not, because we subsequently found out that people were shot, rounded up and shot.

79
00:09:07,710 --> 00:09:14,580
But anyway, we got on the bus and we headed north in this very dusty road.

80
00:09:14,580 --> 00:09:23,220
We were heading to the University of Ibadan, where I was about an hour's drive on Mars, the idea.

81
00:09:23,220 --> 00:09:32,160
But I was heading north. I was attached to the Department of Political Science as a kind of research student, loosely affiliated.

82
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:37,890
That was the idea. And you actually thought you'd be.

83
00:09:37,890 --> 00:09:41,640
Well, I needed to get a job. So we went to the institute. Yes.

84
00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:52,140
I was expecting my first child there as well. And so I found a job at the Institute of African Studies and.

85
00:09:52,140 --> 00:10:05,870
I was working there trying to transcribe some research, which was a comparison between your land and by here in cells, and it was to do with.

86
00:10:05,870 --> 00:10:11,450
They were looking at the local religion and it was a very scratchy thing and it was quite a job.

87
00:10:11,450 --> 00:10:19,470
But I've written a bit about some of the people in that centre and there was some fascinating characters there.

88
00:10:19,470 --> 00:10:24,780
We used to have coffee every morning and get to know each other and get to gossip.

89
00:10:24,780 --> 00:10:33,150
But it was while I was working at the Institute of African Studies that Ruth first turned up.

90
00:10:33,150 --> 00:10:45,900
And we've devoted a whole chapter to Ruth first because she was an extraordinary person to have known and a very courageous and interesting person.

91
00:10:45,900 --> 00:10:53,040
And she knew I was working there because of her association with anti-apartheid.

92
00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:58,530
And I didn't really know her that well because she didn't suffer fools gladly.

93
00:10:58,530 --> 00:11:06,030
So one kept one's counsel in her company and she would breeze in and she would breeze out.

94
00:11:06,030 --> 00:11:10,890
And she was just so glamorous. She was impeccably dressed.

95
00:11:10,890 --> 00:11:15,990
She had lovely shoes. She looked amazing.

96
00:11:15,990 --> 00:11:20,700
Unlike her communist Trump. Yes, she had three pretty daughters.

97
00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:30,870
And she had set up house in in London. And she had her parents living old Julius and Tinnie in the basement.

98
00:11:30,870 --> 00:11:42,930
And I knew them a lot better than I did Ruth, because, oh, Julius used to come in and do the anti-apartheid accounts on a regular basis.

99
00:11:42,930 --> 00:11:53,700
And so we knew him that way. But she suddenly turns up at the Institute of African Studies and said, look at my hair.

100
00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:58,750
This is no place for a white woman. Can I come and live with you?

101
00:11:58,750 --> 00:12:05,670
That's it. Okay. So she just moved in and knocked a dose of salts.

102
00:12:05,670 --> 00:12:13,620
She and she was doing her research on a book she was writing called The Barrel of a Gun.

103
00:12:13,620 --> 00:12:19,290
And she was wanting to do her research. And she was a very energetic.

104
00:12:19,290 --> 00:12:23,790
She was extraordinary. And after supper every night,

105
00:12:23,790 --> 00:12:36,240
we would sit down in our living room with its blue lino floor and its blue walls and the fan going around slowly stirring the hot air.

106
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:45,420
And she would move up every thing. Robert knew off of his head that she'd just interrogated him non-stop.

107
00:12:45,420 --> 00:12:52,410
But we did become quite close to recession and we did get to know her very, very well.

108
00:12:52,410 --> 00:12:57,570
And for the rest of her life, she had to. She became after that time.

109
00:12:57,570 --> 00:13:03,330
She was a journalist and she was quite a high profile journalist on South Africa.

110
00:13:03,330 --> 00:13:11,700
She made a documentary at the time called 117 Days, because she was arrested under that 180,

111
00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:19,080
90 day, 90 day, and then it was nude in solitary confinement.

112
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,930
And she she made a documentary about that.

113
00:13:23,930 --> 00:13:32,490
But and, of course, I suppose one should say, sadly, she was assassinated by the South African regime in a parcel bomb.

114
00:13:32,490 --> 00:13:36,860
For those of you who didn't know the story when she was working in Mozambique. Yes.

115
00:13:36,860 --> 00:13:41,130
Say it was a it was really a horror story at the end.

116
00:13:41,130 --> 00:13:47,990
Oh, it's just that she made a terrific contribution to the anti-apartheid movement.

117
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:58,320
And, you know, I think we've said a little bit in the book about her, what she believed in, what she thought, how significant she had.

118
00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,250
She wrote us a letter once and she said, you'd never believe my luck.

119
00:14:02,250 --> 00:14:13,330
When I went to Sierra Leone, I would walk straight into a C o u p and she was so excited.

120
00:14:13,330 --> 00:14:20,040
It all helped. Yeah. So well, anyway, well, Celina was at the Institute of African Studies, Ruth.

121
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:26,330
So I suppose stayed with us for a couple of months then. Yeah. And she did so decides that some came back and forth.

122
00:14:26,330 --> 00:14:29,940
She went off to Lagos through a bit and she went up to the north. To the north.

123
00:14:29,940 --> 00:14:36,390
And so, yes, I was then, as I said, a touch to the Department of Politics.

124
00:14:36,390 --> 00:14:47,220
But as the war started to grind on, so that affected the department in a rather fundamental way for a start,

125
00:14:47,220 --> 00:14:51,610
whenever a little bit of the former eastern region now called.

126
00:14:51,610 --> 00:14:59,080
Biafra, the breakaway region, was liberated, quote unquote, by the federal government.

127
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:04,510
They would find somebody generally in our department to go and administer it.

128
00:15:04,510 --> 00:15:16,660
So their first war, Poppy caeca, who was an equal guy, worked for our department, was when sent to administer one region and then Larry, a pebble.

129
00:15:16,660 --> 00:15:24,320
Lawrence BIDU was then sent to another region near the Calabar, which had also been liberated.

130
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:34,870
And so the department, which I think should have numbered about eight or so people, was somewhat depleted.

131
00:15:34,870 --> 00:15:39,520
And then very sadly, we lost a young chap the night life of me.

132
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:49,080
I can't remember his name. He'd only been there a couple of weeks and he was killed on the Lagos baton Regg, which was an absolutely nightmare.

133
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,730
A very, very scary read read. People just die by the dozens.

134
00:15:53,730 --> 00:15:59,980
Had no accidents on it. I think it had something to do with the fact that we heard that lorry drivers were

135
00:15:59,980 --> 00:16:06,550
putting brakes on the accelerator so they could cool their feet out the window.

136
00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:09,760
And we did see well resolvable anyway.

137
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:17,890
So the point is that the problem of politics was much depleted and there they will be students eager as anything to be taught.

138
00:16:17,890 --> 00:16:29,440
And so they decided or it was decided that I would have to adopt and forget about my research and teach the students.

139
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:36,660
Now, the person who made this decision was a chap called E you Essien.

140
00:16:36,660 --> 00:16:39,910
And I asked him once, well, what is this EU stand for?

141
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:45,480
He said, well, is he a new rooms? So he was, you know, to me, see, too.

142
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:54,610
And he was a very distinguished Nigerian political scientist who had been educated, particularly in Chicago,

143
00:16:54,610 --> 00:17:01,690
where he got very close to a larger Mohammed, who was the leader of the black Muslim community.

144
00:17:01,690 --> 00:17:06,910
And he read this fascinating book. I'm going to flash it up on the screen now.

145
00:17:06,910 --> 00:17:14,020
It's called Black Nationalism and the Rise and Fall of Black Muslims in the USA.

146
00:17:14,020 --> 00:17:23,110
It was based on his very close, intimate awareness and relationship with this community and with this guy, Elijah Muhammad.

147
00:17:23,110 --> 00:17:28,360
He was also the moment when he met his wife, who was very involved in the Black Power movement.

148
00:17:28,360 --> 00:17:40,510
Her name was Ruby Maloney. And so they kind of drew us into their circle and one night invited Selena and me for a meal at their house.

149
00:17:40,510 --> 00:17:44,380
And we couldn't quite figure out what this was about.

150
00:17:44,380 --> 00:17:51,490
It seemed like a sort of unusual honour to be granted by him to these four junior people.

151
00:17:51,490 --> 00:17:57,070
And then suddenly at the end of the meal, he said, well, you will have to lecture department.

152
00:17:57,070 --> 00:18:05,830
And you could see that this was something that he was struggling a little bit with in his mind because perhaps he was a bit suspicious of us,

153
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:14,680
you know, did we where we are to, you know, bad, bad racial attitudes or whatever it was.

154
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:19,780
And he was reassured by that evening. So there we were.

155
00:18:19,780 --> 00:18:26,800
We were taken into the department. I was teaching goodness knows how many courses history of political thought.

156
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:35,590
We used to call that from placatory NATO. We hit we then also also did something on comparative politics.

157
00:18:35,590 --> 00:18:41,900
I was doing a comparison of India and France, Nigeria and goodness knows what else.

158
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:46,960
And I hardly knew anything about some of this material.

159
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,390
And so I used to race off to the library.

160
00:18:49,390 --> 00:18:54,670
I didn't give a reading list to the students because sometimes they would beat me to the library and get the book

161
00:18:54,670 --> 00:19:01,900
before I had a chance to read it and then rush back and say it was a great experience in learning how to speak and,

162
00:19:01,900 --> 00:19:11,860
you know, without, you know, that much preparation. But I also wanted to just also highlight another very important figure in Nigeria at the time.

163
00:19:11,860 --> 00:19:19,480
And that's Billy Dudley, who had an I think a Scottish father and a Nigerian mum.

164
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:28,000
And he was a very much the presence in the department then became property Nigeria's most distinguished political scientist afterwards.

165
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:38,080
At the time, he read the book, which I think was his P.H., gee, I'll again hold it up here so that people can see it.

166
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:44,800
It's called partisan politics in northern Nigeria. But in fact, he was from the Midwest.

167
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:50,410
He had good connexions in the Midwest and he was a real public intellectual.

168
00:19:50,410 --> 00:19:55,760
He. He started a journal called Nigerian Opinion.

169
00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:02,540
In fact, the very first almost my first publications were in Nigerian opinion was a kind of monthly or rather

170
00:20:02,540 --> 00:20:10,850
erratically produced journal and new sort of a newspaper and used to be dished out in the street corners.

171
00:20:10,850 --> 00:20:13,310
And that was great fun because, you know,

172
00:20:13,310 --> 00:20:21,200
you got in touch with different elements of the community that you wouldn't really have met one way or another.

173
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:29,450
But Billy also was a little bit, what shall we say, daring in his personality.

174
00:20:29,450 --> 00:20:36,770
So one day he persuaded me, I think. Against my better judgement, that we should go and have a look at the war front.

175
00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:40,160
We were, of course, in the west here in Ibadan,

176
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:49,460
and we drove to the Midwest and sort of talk to soldiers and people much closer to where the war was happening.

177
00:20:49,460 --> 00:20:54,410
And on the way back, it was at night.

178
00:20:54,410 --> 00:21:02,330
For some reason, Billy decided we had to get back to Ibadan that evening and we had to pass from the local military commander,

179
00:21:02,330 --> 00:21:08,030
which was good for a few miles for about 20 or 30 miles, because people knew who these guys were.

180
00:21:08,030 --> 00:21:15,200
Guy was major so-and-so and he read the. They would read the pass and they would wave us through.

181
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:24,990
But then as we got further and further away from beneath him. So this chap's writ did not run and people didn't know who this commander was.

182
00:21:24,990 --> 00:21:36,740
And I started getting more and more suspicious of us. And at one point got very angry and asked for my I.D., which I handed my passport to them.

183
00:21:36,740 --> 00:21:43,340
And then the people at the roadblock, all state asked for Billy's I.D. and he said, well,

184
00:21:43,340 --> 00:21:51,530
he didn't carry any I.D. because he was a Nigerian and because his mum was Nigerian and his dad was Scottish,

185
00:21:51,530 --> 00:21:54,590
he was a bit lighter than most people in skin colour.

186
00:21:54,590 --> 00:22:02,990
And they refused to believe that he was Nigerian and lined us up against the copper, seemed to be about to shoot us.

187
00:22:02,990 --> 00:22:16,730
Fortunately, Billy spoke lots of pidgin and particularly worry pidgin, and it seemed to or calm down and we managed to get back to to Ibadan.

188
00:22:16,730 --> 00:22:21,660
So that was our little experience. Would you want to say that a little bit about how the war affected us?

189
00:22:21,660 --> 00:22:28,250
I think. Yes. Well, I mean, we didn't have actual fighting, you know, back when we were there.

190
00:22:28,250 --> 00:22:40,370
But we did it did affect us in some ways in so far as they stopped or imports into Nigeria except for arms.

191
00:22:40,370 --> 00:22:46,910
So we had a lot of difficulty getting supplies of things that we were used to.

192
00:22:46,910 --> 00:22:52,310
They did have food, but they didn't have food. We were used to.

193
00:22:52,310 --> 00:22:57,530
And it was quite different. I found it quite difficult to immigrate into Kingsway, which is a big departure.

194
00:22:57,530 --> 00:23:01,670
Well, we went in to Kingsway and I was expecting this baby.

195
00:23:01,670 --> 00:23:11,030
And so we went into Kingsway and I thought I'd kick myself out with the cradle and high chair and all the things you need for a baby.

196
00:23:11,030 --> 00:23:18,230
And the only thing in the shop with is that was nothing else to shop for.

197
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:23,710
So we we had to get a local carpenter and he came along to our house.

198
00:23:23,710 --> 00:23:34,580
People always coming to our house offering services. And he had support, Sears, Roebuck or some of the old catalogue, American American catalogue.

199
00:23:34,580 --> 00:23:44,250
And he said you could make anything in the catalogue. So I selected a high chair and I selected a little rocking cradle.

200
00:23:44,250 --> 00:23:54,870
And then shortly before the baby was due, these items arrived and the highchair was sort of all right.

201
00:23:54,870 --> 00:24:03,330
It had an extra leg, which was just as well as suppose had five legs instead of all that gave it more stability.

202
00:24:03,330 --> 00:24:12,030
But the cradle didn't rock. And Robin said very tactlessly about two weeks before our baby was due.

203
00:24:12,030 --> 00:24:17,030
It looks like a coffin stretched for it. I got very upset.

204
00:24:17,030 --> 00:24:21,510
So we have to decorate it. We decorated it.

205
00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:26,100
We made a mobile to put above and. But that was so hard to sing.

206
00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:30,510
And also the supplies of food was very difficult.

207
00:24:30,510 --> 00:24:34,770
They didn't have butcher shops where you bought your meat packaged.

208
00:24:34,770 --> 00:24:40,430
You have to go to the market and buy the life chicken. And I can't kill chickens.

209
00:24:40,430 --> 00:24:44,280
I've never been able to. So. Oh, gosh.

210
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:49,200
It was just awful having to deal with it as well as snails.

211
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:57,840
You just couldn't find it very hard. I was very saddened when I came back and it was it was hard in that respect.

212
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:04,500
And there were lots and lots of roadblocks and there were also lots of rumours going around and people were quite scared.

213
00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:16,350
And there was a there was a Swede who, funnily enough, I had met because in my earlier incarnation, I had gone to MU.

214
00:25:16,350 --> 00:25:23,550
Work to demand most statue, Djata. And I had a cousin from Scotland who had married a Swede.

215
00:25:23,550 --> 00:25:31,460
Swedish count. And they were in Maumee at the time and they used to entertain me and.

216
00:25:31,460 --> 00:25:38,690
I remember meeting Count Fun Rosen at one of their parties to sort of.

217
00:25:38,690 --> 00:25:47,210
And he joined the mercenary. He became a mercenary and was fighting on behalf of the Efron's.

218
00:25:47,210 --> 00:25:52,560
Yeah. And then there were rumours that he had poisoned our water supply and things like that.

219
00:25:52,560 --> 00:26:00,230
They were young. He had some, like, aircraft. Yes. And so he bombed the the Ibadan airport.

220
00:26:00,230 --> 00:26:03,850
Yes. Yes. He was rumoured to have really believed it. I did.

221
00:26:03,850 --> 00:26:09,920
Yes. Then he successfully knocked out a number of federal planes and other airports.

222
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,910
But it Ibadan Airport. All he did was kill a few cows.

223
00:26:13,910 --> 00:26:20,330
I know the cows did wander onto the runway, but what they said was that what the rumour was,

224
00:26:20,330 --> 00:26:30,230
that he had dropped some poisonous canisters into our water supply that they leili down just outside of that which fed us.

225
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:37,310
So for a while, we were sort of panicking and, you know, look at that, about three bottles of water in the fridge.

226
00:26:37,310 --> 00:26:44,460
Yes, the water supplies were very erratic during the war. I don't care if they still are, but some.

227
00:26:44,460 --> 00:26:50,480
One, two, three people said put the plug in the box and just leaves the tap on.

228
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,870
And then when the water comes on, you'll have a supply.

229
00:26:53,870 --> 00:27:01,250
And as it was anyway, you had to boil the water for 20 minutes very vigorously and then put it through a filter.

230
00:27:01,250 --> 00:27:05,630
So it was all quite a performance. They were a lot of water shortages.

231
00:27:05,630 --> 00:27:11,880
But one New Year's Eve, we went to a party and we came back and the whole house was flooded.

232
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:25,410
Had a very good, thorough cleaning. We forgot we forgot to turn the tap off before we were docked and they gave us a New Year present of water.

233
00:27:25,410 --> 00:27:30,350
Well, you were going to say a little bit about Randers birthday. Oh, yes. I had my baby there.

234
00:27:30,350 --> 00:27:38,990
And that was big a big moment for me because it was my first child and it was quite an interesting experience.

235
00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:44,120
I did say to that was actually a very good service at the University College Hospital.

236
00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:51,440
Excellent service. Excellent, excellent obstetricians and people like that.

237
00:27:51,440 --> 00:28:00,650
And we had a little clinic at a campus called the Georgia Clinic, which was run by Sandy.

238
00:28:00,650 --> 00:28:04,960
Sandy boy, two good men of Africa. And he had his son.

239
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:10,550
I used to see his children come out from school and they used to roller skate around.

240
00:28:10,550 --> 00:28:16,910
But his son became quite well-known, also called William Boyd.

241
00:28:16,910 --> 00:28:22,550
And he was he he to run his campaign against rabies and things like that.

242
00:28:22,550 --> 00:28:33,080
He was very good. And then there was also Shula Denny, whose father was the owner of a shop there, which was a very interesting case.

243
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:43,050
We'll tell you about in a moment. But anyway, on the day my due day, Miranda came and Robert took me and left me outside the hospital.

244
00:28:43,050 --> 00:28:49,040
They wouldn't let him in. They didn't have fathers, wasn't a family affair.

245
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:57,490
And it was an awful day, I must say. The fourth of April, 1968 and when we came out.

246
00:28:57,490 --> 00:29:04,240
Of the hospital, when I was being wheeled back off to giving birth to this exquisite child,

247
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:10,450
I thought the nurses were all crying and Martin Luther King had just been shot.

248
00:29:10,450 --> 00:29:17,680
And they'd got the news. So my daughter has this feeling of an affinity with Martin Luther King.

249
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,870
And in fact, I'd seen him in London lecturing at Conway Hall.

250
00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:31,780
I think it was. He came onto the stage with his whole family, was taken aback by that.

251
00:29:31,780 --> 00:29:38,560
It was a very sad day and so I can always remember that.

252
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,640
And then we used to hear at night the soldiers being brought in,

253
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:51,330
the helicopters from the war front, and that was kind of brought the war home to us a little.

254
00:29:51,330 --> 00:29:57,760
And the soldiers were all over the hospital. And then when they got better, they got they started to walk around the hospital, I suppose.

255
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:07,970
They got a bit bored and they used to come and sort of comment on the babies in the ward with their guns.

256
00:30:07,970 --> 00:30:12,520
Well, I mean, that gives you some idea of living with these little.

257
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:22,390
Interesting. So if I suppose not, Hazard's really sort of the wee wee wee wee surmounted them quite easily.

258
00:30:22,390 --> 00:30:30,160
It's not as if we were in danger or anything like that. So I think one shouldn't exaggerate the hardships that we suffered.

259
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:37,600
Of course, compared with many other people in the war. But I do provide also a little bit of an analysis of the war.

260
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:43,960
For those of you interested in that, it appears more as an appendix to the book.

261
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:51,260
But so you can skip it if you don't like it, if you rather have the much more lively Seiffert plot,

262
00:30:51,260 --> 00:30:55,540
that stuff that Selina has provided and just ignore it.

263
00:30:55,540 --> 00:31:01,750
But that just let let me perhaps make one or two general points about this.

264
00:31:01,750 --> 00:31:11,320
I open the account a little bit with the story of how the Ekpo were, you know, trading minority.

265
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:16,780
They used to use the expression of middle man, minority or sort of sexist expression.

266
00:31:16,780 --> 00:31:25,960
But that was the sociological jargon of the time who were spread, of course, all over Nigeria, mainly as traders.

267
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:36,010
And they in northern Nigeria tended to live outside the core areas in subgoal galleries and the Yes or Stranger Cortis.

268
00:31:36,010 --> 00:31:46,240
And from time to time, there were outpace sometime outbreaks and sometimes very ruthless and murderous outbreaks of violence directed against him,

269
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,380
which what precipitated the war.

270
00:31:50,380 --> 00:32:03,970
And in many people's mind, the story of the war is really the story of ethnic conflict or tribal conflict, to use an even older out dated expression.

271
00:32:03,970 --> 00:32:10,540
And I tried to take that narrative on a little bit and say, well, hang on a second.

272
00:32:10,540 --> 00:32:17,280
It wasn't only about that. There were all kinds of complex class elements involved.

273
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,560
There were differences between the north and the south.

274
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:30,220
They were religious conflicts going on that led in and sometimes obscured the the ethnic conflicts.

275
00:32:30,220 --> 00:32:35,620
They were regional issues. And above all and I made quite a long story,

276
00:32:35,620 --> 00:32:42,400
all of this in the analysis of the prelude to the war some forty 42 days before the crucial

277
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:50,830
period when there will very complex political manoeuvres between the principal actors involved,

278
00:32:50,830 --> 00:33:06,100
which suggest not so much the story of has a group with one determined profile to get out of Nigeria and create this new secessionist concrete,

279
00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:08,650
but rather a more complex,

280
00:33:08,650 --> 00:33:26,890
very interactive relationship between different elements trying to create new alliances in the country in the hope that the South,

281
00:33:26,890 --> 00:33:35,980
which was essentially a industrialised Christianised, mainly Christian community, would turn against the north.

282
00:33:35,980 --> 00:33:47,470
And I described this as the greater south. That was the plan, a way to which Ojukwu and many of the people in the Igbo leadership were a party to.

283
00:33:47,470 --> 00:33:53,230
So that's the sort of the hidden story of the Nigerian war.

284
00:33:53,230 --> 00:34:03,430
And I suppose it does have some relevance now, again, because there is some sort of revival of the Biafra story.

285
00:34:03,430 --> 00:34:11,110
And also, as it followed to a degree, I did choose a famous novel now The Half the Yellow Sun,

286
00:34:11,110 --> 00:34:19,940
which had been turned into a movie, which to a great deal romanticises the story from the point of view of the Biafra.

287
00:34:19,940 --> 00:34:23,740
And of course, it's a tragedy. And she depicts that terribly well.

288
00:34:23,740 --> 00:34:27,730
But the. There is no complex analysis of how the war started.

289
00:34:27,730 --> 00:34:40,300
It's just the assumption that, you know, the reference had the cause that was important for them to defend and some kind of defence was was,

290
00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:46,360
as it were, completely plausible politically. So that's that's the sort of bit.

291
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:52,490
But I think the on the ground, one of the things that really intrigued us was the art and the drama.

292
00:34:52,490 --> 00:35:03,460
And I think you wanted to say a little bit of boiling just blew our minds. I had no idea what artistic and talented country that was.

293
00:35:03,460 --> 00:35:12,580
I mean, I've grown up in South Africa and there was no art even approximating what you saw in Nigeria.

294
00:35:12,580 --> 00:35:20,770
They had the most amazing pottery and cloths and music and siete.

295
00:35:20,770 --> 00:35:23,920
It was absolutely mind boggling.

296
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:33,040
They were so incredibly creative carvings and a lot of people were artists and they would come round to the house and sell their art.

297
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:42,010
And we used to buy it sometimes. And one day we went to a shop and we took Ruth first with us.

298
00:35:42,010 --> 00:35:45,430
And that was just an incredible pace.

299
00:35:45,430 --> 00:35:57,870
And we went to see Suzanne Vanga, who was an Austrian artist who became Nigerian, lived the rest of her life in Nigeria and eventually married.

300
00:35:57,870 --> 00:36:03,940
She. She was married to early buyer, is a linguist, but that didn't last.

301
00:36:03,940 --> 00:36:08,800
And she then married that oboe of a shop, HBO's chief drama.

302
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:16,380
And she gave us lunch. And the monkeys were jumping around on the table snatching food from us.

303
00:36:16,380 --> 00:36:20,390
And she did such wonderful things.

304
00:36:20,390 --> 00:36:27,070
So the Nigerian people with her in making every garage.

305
00:36:27,070 --> 00:36:32,050
I mean, what a boring thing is a garage. It was so beautifully decorated.

306
00:36:32,050 --> 00:36:39,910
Yes. And she had little shrines and sculptures that you'd come across on the road just peeping out from around the corner.

307
00:36:39,910 --> 00:36:46,030
It was amazing. The ocean grove. I think it's now a UNESCO heritage and I think it's now a heritage site.

308
00:36:46,030 --> 00:36:50,800
And so they revanche she revived the essentially the Yarber religious.

309
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:58,550
Yes. Shrines. Yes. And I think was recognised as a Yarber priestess in.

310
00:36:58,550 --> 00:37:03,460
In. Yes. Towards the middle of her years there, I think.

311
00:37:03,460 --> 00:37:15,910
Yeah. So I think I recall there was a wonderful moment when we were heading back and she said, yes, I was about I was about eight months pregnant.

312
00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:27,430
And Suzanne Venga rushed up to us and said, can you take this back to them, to the zoo and in Ibadan?

313
00:37:27,430 --> 00:37:31,720
And I'm not sure if I risk it. So Robyn was driving.

314
00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:39,070
We had this little Ford Anglia. Yeah. Ruth, as I guess, was sitting in the passenger seat in the front.

315
00:37:39,070 --> 00:37:49,300
And I was in the back seat with this back. I think it's called a desire for a thing restricting.

316
00:37:49,300 --> 00:37:56,740
Yeah. Twitchiness similarly than. So we drove about 50 miles back or more.

317
00:37:56,740 --> 00:38:03,610
I didn't know how it was and eventually got to the zoo and then went on to have this animal.

318
00:38:03,610 --> 00:38:09,820
But we eventually persuaded them that they had to give shelter to this creature.

319
00:38:09,820 --> 00:38:15,280
So that would that was some of the awesome medius. I think we nearly ended.

320
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:21,910
I think we've gone on long enough and we probably have. But I thought one of the things that might be helpful just to sort of concluded,

321
00:38:21,910 --> 00:38:26,560
because we were wondering whether we were saying anything of any particular

322
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:32,260
significance and when when we were trying to sort of frame it in our heads,

323
00:38:32,260 --> 00:38:39,610
we decided that, look, there's a very bifurcates view of this period where on the one hand,

324
00:38:39,610 --> 00:38:44,700
there's this idea that there is a colonial history or imperial history and that,

325
00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:52,060
you know, there is a history of people coming out and administering and dominating and so on.

326
00:38:52,060 --> 00:38:57,760
And of course, we were opposed to that politically, but that's one narrative.

327
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:03,850
But on the other hand, there's a narrative of Veith anticolonial nationalist struggle.

328
00:39:03,850 --> 00:39:09,820
And so the imperialist histories were opposed to the nation's histories.

329
00:39:09,820 --> 00:39:15,190
And we found that, OK, maybe this is just a footnote in history that we were writing.

330
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:24,470
What we thought of was a sort of internationalist account, because what we saw, what we perceived ourselves as part of this Hornish.

331
00:39:24,470 --> 00:39:33,970
Group of people who were very involved in the post-colonial anticolonial world, who had strong affiliations,

332
00:39:33,970 --> 00:39:44,320
associations with Nigerian colleagues and friends and people who we met there and somehow were trying to effect some relationship.

333
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:51,040
It helped to build Nigeria. You may want to say something a little bit about that when they were just amazing people.

334
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:56,170
They were amazing people and their dedication to the country.

335
00:39:56,170 --> 00:40:04,070
I think a little bit of Robin Horten who gave his whole life to Nigeria, didn't he?

336
00:40:04,070 --> 00:40:11,140
It was absolutely amazing. And even Armstrong, who was my boss, set up the Institute of African Studies.

337
00:40:11,140 --> 00:40:18,730
He spent the rest of he was an American linguist, in fact, and he spent the rest of his life in Nigeria and died there.

338
00:40:18,730 --> 00:40:23,030
So it it captured quite a lot of people's hearts.

339
00:40:23,030 --> 00:40:28,090
I have to say that. All right. Well, we're going to wind up here lined up.

340
00:40:28,090 --> 00:40:33,340
So what do you have enough to hand over to you?

341
00:40:33,340 --> 00:40:48,640
Thank you very much for that. Know, very engaging discussion of your time in Nigeria.