1 00:00:05,570 --> 00:00:09,020 All right. Good afternoon. So let me just introduce the speaker. 2 00:00:09,770 --> 00:00:16,730 The microphone. I take it back. Oh, yeah. So stealing is one thing. 3 00:00:16,780 --> 00:00:21,190 Yeah, I know. We practice it. Okay. So, good afternoon. 4 00:00:21,230 --> 00:00:32,700 Welcome, everybody. I'm delighted to profess to to introduce to you Professor Galit Sabar, who usually teaches African studies at Tel Aviv University. 5 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:41,290 Currently, she's the president of the Grouping Academic Centre among us. 6 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,560 So among the many issues that Professor Tabar has studied. 7 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:53,840 I will note the following these are the most, I guess, intriguing to me that I found in the long list of publications and works you've done. 8 00:00:54,720 --> 00:01:01,070 She's written about Ethiopian Jews struggle to reach Israel, about religion and politics in Africa, 9 00:01:01,340 --> 00:01:08,510 and the role of religious organisations in the HIV AIDS prevention education efforts in Kenya. 10 00:01:08,810 --> 00:01:14,990 More pertinent to the topic of today's talk since the late 1990, 11 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:20,450 she is focussed on African labour migrants in Israel with a special emphasis on their socio 12 00:01:20,450 --> 00:01:25,190 religious organisations and their complex relations with Israeli society and politics. 13 00:01:25,940 --> 00:01:32,570 Following the massive deportation of the early 2000s of undocumented migrants migrant labourers from Israel, 14 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:36,950 Professor Sabar has expanded her research to include homecoming patterns. 15 00:01:37,550 --> 00:01:44,510 And since 2006 her research has focussed on African asylum seekers, mainly from Sudan and Eritrea, 16 00:01:45,350 --> 00:01:51,800 who have started entering Israel at the time via the border with Egypt, which has since been largely sealed. 17 00:01:54,140 --> 00:01:58,250 The title of her talk today is African Migration to Israel. 18 00:01:58,370 --> 00:02:02,129 Chronicle of War of a Failure Foretold Prophecies. 19 00:02:02,130 --> 00:02:07,190 Somebody, thank you so much. Thank you very much, Professor. Go and thank you for coming today. 20 00:02:09,260 --> 00:02:20,270 It was very tempting for me to start talking about the recent events, about the whole issue of deportation. 21 00:02:21,350 --> 00:02:31,459 The new government decision to deport African asylum seekers from Eritrea and Sudan to a third country because 22 00:02:31,460 --> 00:02:39,770 Israel does not want to hold the African asylum seekers and because it's on the news and it's a very heated debate, 23 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:47,300 it was tempting to start with it. However, I thought that it wouldn't be right. 24 00:02:47,870 --> 00:02:57,230 I think that in order to get a fuller picture and a broader understanding of the complexities entangled within the deportation, 25 00:02:57,860 --> 00:03:02,810 the right thing to do, especially within an academic forum, 26 00:03:03,260 --> 00:03:08,780 would be really to go back in a very methodological way, in a systematic way, 27 00:03:09,020 --> 00:03:20,780 and to look at the historical and social context of the whole issue of non-Jewish migration to Israel, specifically African migrants. 28 00:03:20,780 --> 00:03:26,360 And then at the end we would reach what's going on today and really have a better understanding. 29 00:03:26,900 --> 00:03:29,990 So that is just a general comment. 30 00:03:30,260 --> 00:03:41,300 The second general comment would be on the way that I've conducted my research on non-Jewish migration to Israel over the past 20 years, 31 00:03:41,780 --> 00:03:50,690 and it has mainly been qualitative research methodologies, open ended and in-depth interviews, 32 00:03:51,020 --> 00:03:56,630 focus groups and a lot of being in the field and with the field. 33 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:07,130 As Professor Younger said, for many, many years my research has focussed on the religious lives of African migrants and most of them are Christians. 34 00:04:07,460 --> 00:04:16,220 I believe that I am the Israeli that has the most hours in African churches as a Jew in Tel Aviv, 35 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:25,129 and I remember about 20 years ago when our eldest son was about eight, my father called on a Saturday and he said, Where's Imma? 36 00:04:25,130 --> 00:04:32,900 Where's Mom? And my son said, She's in church. And you can imagine my father almost getting a heart attack, you know. 37 00:04:33,290 --> 00:04:43,460 So what is important for me was to try and study the people and the phenomena and the questions 38 00:04:43,970 --> 00:04:49,880 in the most intimate way I could as a research and yet keeping a critical analytical way. 39 00:04:50,450 --> 00:04:57,260 Now, several years ago, I think it was about three years ago, after being in the field for over 15 years, 40 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,940 it just started that Eritreans and Sudanese who came to seek asylum. 41 00:05:04,390 --> 00:05:09,370 Israel started to go back because they were pushed back by the Israeli government. 42 00:05:09,370 --> 00:05:16,000 And I think I was the first one to go and to try and see what's happening with these returnees. 43 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,920 And this is just one quote that I think is very rich and worth reading it together. 44 00:05:21,250 --> 00:05:26,440 Before coming, I thought that Israeli people will understand me because they too suffered. 45 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:32,830 But, you know, after being in your country for so many years, I know that you don't really know or you refuse to know. 46 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:37,780 So now I'm here in Kampala. No work, no future. 47 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,040 I wish to come back to Israel. I have many Israeli friends. 48 00:05:42,460 --> 00:05:48,790 I can't go to my home. I'm a dead man. If I go back now, 49 00:05:48,790 --> 00:05:54,100 I think it's very clear from this very short quote that there is a clear distinction 50 00:05:54,220 --> 00:05:59,110 in the eyes of many African asylum seekers between the government of Israel. 51 00:05:59,470 --> 00:06:05,710 This this very big institution or constituency and the people of Israel. 52 00:06:06,010 --> 00:06:12,790 He has lots of friends. He wants to go back. And yet the state of Israel, in spite of the history of the Jewish people in the state of Israel, 53 00:06:13,420 --> 00:06:20,409 has pushed him out and to try and really understand this dichotomy between what they feel towards the people of Israel and towards the 54 00:06:20,410 --> 00:06:28,720 state of Israel and the way that they understand the Jewish history was really interesting for me studying African migrants in Israel. 55 00:06:29,230 --> 00:06:34,719 So what we will try and do today briefly is go over several issues. 56 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:44,770 The numbers that we are talking about, the countries of origin, the legal status, social life and whatever time will permit us. 57 00:06:45,130 --> 00:06:47,860 So let's start really with numbers. 58 00:06:47,860 --> 00:06:56,860 And although I'm a qualitative research researcher and numbers usually confuses, I think to start with, it's really important. 59 00:06:57,550 --> 00:07:05,500 Early 1990s, there were no non-Jewish African migrants, and I specifically say non-Jewish African migrants, 60 00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:13,510 because I'm not speaking today about Ethiopian Jews or North African Jews for that matter, both coming from the African continent. 61 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:18,310 So we're really speaking about non-Jewish African migrants to Israel. 62 00:07:18,550 --> 00:07:23,170 So there were none in the beginning of the 1990s. That's not too long ago. 63 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:31,480 Okay. Now, as you can see, nine years later, we have 20,000 African labour migrants in Israel. 64 00:07:32,110 --> 00:07:39,760 And when the number reached a high level, Israel started to deport these African labour migrants back home. 65 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,550 We will see later on where they came from if we go fast. 66 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:49,750 2004, we've got only 4000 African migrant workers. 67 00:07:51,010 --> 00:07:59,620 Now we see a new type of migration to Israel no longer migrant workers but asylum seekers. 68 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:12,850 And as of the end of 2005, up until today, about 60,000 African asylum seekers entered Israel and now we are at the second stage of deportation. 69 00:08:13,330 --> 00:08:17,979 So within this period of time, from the early 1990s, up until today, 70 00:08:17,980 --> 00:08:25,030 two waves of two distinct groups of non-Jewish African migrants and two waves of deportation. 71 00:08:25,330 --> 00:08:31,780 So now let's go a little bit into the legal status when we are speaking about the state of Israel. 72 00:08:31,780 --> 00:08:37,030 So obviously, I'm sure that in this crowd I don't have to elaborate on the law of return, 73 00:08:37,570 --> 00:08:47,559 which is really the basic of of what constitute the migration legal frame to Israel. 74 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:53,650 And if you want to shortly say any and every Jew around the world has the right to migrate to Israel, 75 00:08:53,900 --> 00:09:02,920 not only has the right to migrate to Israel, but upon arrival gets full citizenship and and a big welcome hand. 76 00:09:03,250 --> 00:09:05,920 Okay. However, the very, 77 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:20,290 very limited avenues for to gain citizenship for non-Jewish migrants parallel or just a few years after the law of Return was created, 78 00:09:20,290 --> 00:09:28,870 then the law of entry was created regulating the rights of non-nationals who were not Jewish to enter and reside to Israel. 79 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:35,440 Now, although I'm not going to speak about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, when we look at these laws, 80 00:09:35,560 --> 00:09:42,730 we have to keep that bear that in mind that this is the general context that these laws were created, 81 00:09:43,060 --> 00:09:48,670 that trying to rescue the Jews after the Second World War and creating a safe home for 82 00:09:48,670 --> 00:09:54,879 the Jewish people and vis a vis the Palestinians to create a clear border between us. 83 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:03,460 And then now, in 1954, because of the tension between Israel and. 84 00:10:03,530 --> 00:10:12,590 Jordan mainly. And the entry of the infiltrators, the Palestinian what they were called infiltrators from Jordan. 85 00:10:12,980 --> 00:10:16,670 We had the 1954 Prevention of Infiltration Law. 86 00:10:17,060 --> 00:10:29,360 Now, what's interesting is that when the law was created in the mid 1950s, it was purely seeing Palestinian terrorists infiltrating Israel. 87 00:10:29,930 --> 00:10:38,150 However, nowadays, when we are speaking, the African asylum seekers are called infiltrators. 88 00:10:38,740 --> 00:10:49,010 Okay, so unless you really have the historical background, you realise how hard it is to, to people that do know the history, 89 00:10:49,010 --> 00:10:55,880 to hear these asylum seekers being named infiltrators and to think where did this term come from? 90 00:10:56,420 --> 00:11:03,380 Now at the same time that all these basic laws were constructed, Israel also signed, 91 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:10,850 accepted the Geneva Convention, the Refugee Convention, and the protocol of the Refugee Convention. 92 00:11:10,850 --> 00:11:17,480 And again, all this is tied basically to post World War events. 93 00:11:18,170 --> 00:11:25,190 Okay. So now we have the legal background and now let's look at the recent history of the state of Israel. 94 00:11:25,820 --> 00:11:34,250 Now, up until the early the late 1980s, early 1990s, Israel didn't have international migrant workers. 95 00:11:34,910 --> 00:11:39,830 Now, look around where we are now in England. 96 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,710 International migrant workers was a phenomena that started after World War Two. 97 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:54,290 And that's true to Germany with the Turks. It's true France with North Africans, it's true to all countries around the Western Hemisphere. 98 00:11:54,770 --> 00:11:59,389 However, Israel, although the economy was modern, didn't have international labour migrants. 99 00:11:59,390 --> 00:12:03,950 It had Palestinian workers and they were replacing the cheap labour. 100 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:09,110 However, they came to work in the morning and went back to their homes in the evening. 101 00:12:09,410 --> 00:12:18,080 So we didn't have the whole complexity of international migrant workers like the Auguste Albert in Germany and in other places. 102 00:12:18,830 --> 00:12:25,700 Once the Palestinian uprising, the first Palestinian uprising erupted in the late 1980s, the intifada, 103 00:12:26,270 --> 00:12:33,920 all Israeli governments decided to close the borders to to to prevent the entry of Palestinians from coming to work in Israel. 104 00:12:34,220 --> 00:12:37,610 And there were two major fields that were truly hot. 105 00:12:37,610 --> 00:12:43,400 It was construction and agriculture, and there was an acute shortage in human labour. 106 00:12:43,910 --> 00:12:47,959 Now, parallel to the intifada, at the same time, in the early 1990s, 107 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:54,320 we had the blessed influx of about a million migrants coming from across the South. 108 00:12:54,830 --> 00:13:02,900 So on the one hand, you have a shortage of manpower in construction and agriculture, and you have to think, where are you going to get the workers? 109 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:11,640 You have the Russian new migrants coming, but there wasn't a clear shift of the new migrants into these fields of work. 110 00:13:11,690 --> 00:13:18,470 No, there was a third solution. And the third solution was to bring international migrant workers. 111 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:23,870 So it's a very, very recent phenomena in the history of Israel. 112 00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:34,070 Now, what's interesting to see is once the borders were open in 1990, we had the first year we had about 4000 international migrant workers. 113 00:13:34,460 --> 00:13:38,780 But within six years, you can see how wonderful the Israeli thought that this is. 114 00:13:39,050 --> 00:13:45,950 You know, why not bring Thai workers or Philippine workers or Chinese construction workers? 115 00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:50,180 They're much cheaper. They work harder. 116 00:13:51,020 --> 00:13:56,060 They have less demands. Okay. And they're not Palestinians and they're not Israelis. 117 00:13:56,750 --> 00:14:01,640 So everybody thought this was a big party that we are going into. 118 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:08,900 So you can see that within a very, very short time in migration history and in labour migration history. 119 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:16,880 In less than a decade, Israeli Israel had about a quarter of a million international migrant workers. 120 00:14:16,910 --> 00:14:24,709 Now, this you know, Israel was at the time about 6.5 or 7 million people, a quarter of a million of workers. 121 00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:30,500 That's 10% of the workforce were non Israelis, non-residents, non Palestinians. 122 00:14:31,260 --> 00:14:39,440 Okay, once this started, we have to realise that once a country opens its borders and issues visas, 123 00:14:39,710 --> 00:14:51,290 others with no visas opt to enter either on tourist visas or pilgrim visas and overstay their visas, thus becoming non documented and illegal. 124 00:14:51,800 --> 00:15:03,290 Now, once the numbers reach this very high, that's where we can see the 20,000 African labour migrants, which I mentioned before they came once. 125 00:15:03,430 --> 00:15:09,400 Israel has changed once Israel opened its borders. Africans came as well. 126 00:15:09,970 --> 00:15:16,330 And we have what I mentioned before. But that would be the second wave, and we will come to it a bit late. 127 00:15:17,170 --> 00:15:23,570 So now let's look closely at the wave of the first African labour migrants. 128 00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:30,250 Most of them came from Ghana and Nigeria. Approximately equal numbers, men and women. 129 00:15:31,090 --> 00:15:37,980 Most of them lived in and around Tel Aviv and worked as house cleaners, restaurant workers. 130 00:15:37,990 --> 00:15:43,870 You know, the the triple D works, the dirty, the the demeaning and the dangerous works. 131 00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:53,230 They were young. They were very highly educated. They were the strong members of their families from Ghana and Nigeria. 132 00:15:53,710 --> 00:16:02,500 And what was truly impressive that in the heart of predominantly white and Jewish Tel Aviv, 133 00:16:03,010 --> 00:16:09,550 there was vibrant and amazing life of the African Christian community. 134 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:19,750 In the heart of that were women's groups and sports clubs and kids nurseries and Sunday schools 135 00:16:19,750 --> 00:16:26,080 and political active groups vis a vis the Israeli government and their governments back home. 136 00:16:26,350 --> 00:16:30,940 And at the heart of this rich community were these African independent churches. 137 00:16:31,450 --> 00:16:36,849 Now, you would think that they came to the Holy Land, so they would go to the existing churches, 138 00:16:36,850 --> 00:16:41,020 the Catholics, the Protestants, either in Tel Aviv, in Jaffa and Jerusalem. 139 00:16:41,020 --> 00:16:45,670 But no, that wasn't their type of Christianity. They they were strong enough. 140 00:16:46,090 --> 00:16:52,510 They had funds. They had energy. They had all the social means that they need in the social capital that they needed. 141 00:16:52,780 --> 00:17:03,430 So they created their own churches. And in the mid 1990s, late 1980s, we had about 50 in the five zero independent African churches only in Tel Aviv. 142 00:17:03,580 --> 00:17:06,750 I think this is an amazing phenomena to think about. 143 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:15,940 If they really recreated a Christian discourse within the Holy Land and we could see that throughout their stay in Israel, 144 00:17:15,940 --> 00:17:21,550 they really juggled in between three worlds, the world that they left, 145 00:17:22,090 --> 00:17:27,010 the world that they are right now, i.e. Israel and the world that they wanted to go to, 146 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:33,910 which was either Europe or U.S., where they could get a permanent status, you know, citizenship and so on. 147 00:17:34,210 --> 00:17:37,210 So it was really, really interesting to study that community. 148 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:45,850 However, once the numbers of all the international migration migrants reached this high level of a quarter of a million, 149 00:17:45,850 --> 00:17:54,400 amongst them 20,000 Africans, the Israeli government started the first deportation and most of the African labour migrants were deported. 150 00:17:54,610 --> 00:18:04,840 Most of them, the only ones remaining were those who came from countries where Israel could not deport to Congo, Sierra Leone, Liberia, 151 00:18:05,050 --> 00:18:09,459 where they had a civil war and they got some kind of protection or due to their 152 00:18:09,460 --> 00:18:14,980 children that were born and raised in Israel and out of a humanitarian gesture, 153 00:18:15,010 --> 00:18:25,480 the government of Israel in 2005 decided to give about 160 children and their immediate relatives a permanent residency in Israel. 154 00:18:25,690 --> 00:18:32,290 That was the first time in the Israeli history that this was given to non-Jewish children that were born in Israel, 155 00:18:32,380 --> 00:18:35,560 raised in Israel, that Israeli was their culture. 156 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,660 So the government gave them. And it's interesting. 157 00:18:40,750 --> 00:18:43,990 Sorry. It's 900. Yeah, 160 African children. 158 00:18:44,380 --> 00:18:52,420 And what was interesting to see is how history really has its way of of of being created. 159 00:18:52,720 --> 00:19:01,240 Because just parallel to this one time humanitarian gesture of giving these foreign children an Israeli citizenship, 160 00:19:01,630 --> 00:19:06,970 that's when a new wave of migrants started to come to Israel. 161 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:15,910 Now, it's not directly related, obviously, but when we look at the general picture of the history of non-Jewish migration to Israel, it is related. 162 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:27,430 Now this cohort of of African migrants were African asylum seekers and they started to come, as I said, December 2005 up until very recently. 163 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:33,070 And that's a whole different group of people. Now, many people speak of Africa as a country. 164 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:40,600 It's Chimamanda Adichie. The famous writer says it drives her crazy that people relate to Africa as a country. 165 00:19:40,870 --> 00:19:45,640 So obviously I don't 54 countries and they're very, very distinct. 166 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:54,280 So the first cohort, as I said, were Nigerians and Ghanaians, mainly from West Africa, and these are mainly Eritreans and Sudanese now, 167 00:19:54,760 --> 00:20:01,570 whereas the Ghanaians and Nigerians flew into Israel via the Ben-Gurion Airport with a proper visa. 168 00:20:02,050 --> 00:20:09,930 These cross. By foot to Israel through the lax border with Egypt or the no border with Egypt. 169 00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:13,150 Okay. So Israel. 170 00:20:13,470 --> 00:20:21,990 Well, Israel is the country the only western or so-called western country that has a border with the African continent that people can walk through. 171 00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:30,800 And that's exactly what happened. So we can see how close it is and we can see the numbers that over the years, 172 00:20:31,470 --> 00:20:43,920 over 50,000 African asylum seekers came from Eritrea and about 13,000 from Sudan, both from South Sudan and from Darfur. 173 00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:49,709 The Eritreans were mainly men and the Sudanese. 174 00:20:49,710 --> 00:20:54,750 It's also predominantly a male dominated migration. 175 00:20:56,490 --> 00:21:07,020 I'm sure as people living in England you're very, very well aware of the whole migration cycles that everybody is speaking about them these days. 176 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:20,970 And the one from Northeast Africa is just but one route of Africans trying to seek asylum in Europe crossing the Mediterranean to Spain and Greece. 177 00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:37,980 Okay, so we are the far eastern side of this very, very big migration path towards, you know, better life that Africans are seeking to find. 178 00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:42,030 So it's not something unique to Israel. Absolutely not. 179 00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:48,660 So we have to look at that, at the focus, at the what's happening in our side of the world. 180 00:21:48,990 --> 00:21:53,370 But we are part of a much, much larger movement. 181 00:21:54,150 --> 00:22:01,590 Now let's go back to numbers. So when the first African asylum seekers started to arrive, there were less than 3000. 182 00:22:01,770 --> 00:22:07,320 That's nothing. But look at how fast the numbers grow. 183 00:22:07,590 --> 00:22:17,640 And within one year, 2011, over 17,000 men, women and children crossed from Egypt to Israel. 184 00:22:18,750 --> 00:22:22,230 Now, that's big. If you think about it. 185 00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:27,420 It's thousands every month that just keep on entering Israel. 186 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:38,670 Okay. And the numbers are accumulating. And the total was about 65,000 African asylum seekers within a period of about six years. 187 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:48,570 Okay. Now, if we look, then we can see that the vast majority were from Eritrea, 70%, 20% from Sudan. 188 00:22:49,080 --> 00:23:01,230 And if we compare between migrant workers, African migrant workers, that's the green line on the right hand side, that was close to nothing. 189 00:23:01,470 --> 00:23:06,630 That was a few thousand, and the vast majority became African asylum seekers. 190 00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:11,730 But for a lot of Israelis, they were all Africans, they were all black. 191 00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:21,420 Okay. There was no distinction between the various people, the various reasons for coming there, social and historical reasons for coming to Israel. 192 00:23:23,250 --> 00:23:27,930 Why we're speaking. We can see that from 65,000. 193 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:36,299 The remaining 37,000, i.e. between 2006 13. 194 00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:42,390 When when the border between Israel and Egypt was completed, there was no more entry. 195 00:23:42,810 --> 00:23:49,080 Okay. You can see that it dropped down. And last year, there were like five people who managed to cross the border. 196 00:23:49,090 --> 00:23:54,360 So no new asylum seekers are coming into Israel since 2013. 197 00:23:54,810 --> 00:23:57,650 However, 20,000 have already gone. 198 00:23:57,660 --> 00:24:06,780 And the quotes that I started with is one of those 20,000 who left Israel before or prior to what we're witnessing right now. 199 00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:12,059 So when we look at the legal status, I just put on the right hand side, 200 00:24:12,060 --> 00:24:18,570 just so you don't have to memorise what we spoke before, this is the legal framework of non-Jewish migration to Israel. 201 00:24:18,930 --> 00:24:28,889 But what was going on with these asylum seekers? Now, anybody who knows the Israeli history with refugees, let me take you just for a moment back. 202 00:24:28,890 --> 00:24:32,970 And here again, we have to put the Palestinian-Israeli conflict on the table. 203 00:24:34,230 --> 00:24:41,780 The United Nation that handles refugees around the world has one main agency for refugees. 204 00:24:41,790 --> 00:24:46,140 It's the UNHCR, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. 205 00:24:46,410 --> 00:24:53,550 However, the only refugee people that the UNHCR does not handle are the Palestinians. 206 00:24:53,850 --> 00:24:59,790 They have their own you, UNrun refugee or their own organisation. 207 00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:03,180 So the State of Israel really never had. 208 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:09,070 To deal with the issues of refugees because you UNWRA was dealing with Palestinians 209 00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:14,050 and others did not come to Israel throughout our 70 years of independence. 210 00:25:14,350 --> 00:25:17,410 Everybody remembers when Menachem Begin was the Prime Minister. 211 00:25:17,620 --> 00:25:23,170 There was this ship of refugees coming from Vietnam with 60 people on board. 212 00:25:23,410 --> 00:25:26,800 So we welcomed them then during the Yugoslavian war. 213 00:25:27,010 --> 00:25:34,270 We had some Bosnians youngsters coming, nothing less than a few hundreds came to Israel over the years. 214 00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:43,090 So once these Eritreans and Sudanese started to arrive to Israel, there was no system within the state of Israel of dealing with refugees. 215 00:25:43,420 --> 00:25:46,660 So the United Nation did that for us for several years. 216 00:25:47,050 --> 00:25:55,420 And what the state of Israel decided to do after jailing them for a short time was to give all those entering and seeking asylum, 217 00:25:55,660 --> 00:26:06,640 a group temporary protection, which means you cannot deport them, but they do not get the rights of refugees. 218 00:26:07,630 --> 00:26:11,530 And that means they cannot work. They don't have social benefits. 219 00:26:11,530 --> 00:26:16,510 They don't have health insurance. The main right is that they cannot be deported. 220 00:26:17,290 --> 00:26:28,330 Okay. Now, when you think about it and you all know the refugee convention of refugee status is is something that is examined on an individual basis. 221 00:26:29,110 --> 00:26:38,530 A person goes in and his or her story is examined not because they come from a certain country they automatically get, 222 00:26:38,530 --> 00:26:43,659 but they have to be persecuted personally. Now, here, what the state of Israel said. 223 00:26:43,660 --> 00:26:47,640 If you come from Sudan, you get a group protection or if you come from Eritrea. 224 00:26:47,650 --> 00:26:52,400 So we're not really trying to understand your personal story. 225 00:26:53,080 --> 00:27:01,060 So that is actually the status of the thousands of thousands of African asylum seekers that live right now in Israel. 226 00:27:01,630 --> 00:27:10,660 Now, what's interesting to see that from 2006 onwards, politics of identity were really in place. 227 00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:21,130 And for the first time in the history of Israel, an African refugee sector was developed and it was developed first by their own initiative. 228 00:27:21,670 --> 00:27:27,520 They initiated groups and associations, and they knew that the discourse of human rights, 229 00:27:27,670 --> 00:27:35,740 but also the Israeli civil society, extended an open hand to this new African refugee seekers. 230 00:27:36,820 --> 00:27:45,670 One of the main issues that developed was due to the fact that most of the African refugees, 231 00:27:45,670 --> 00:27:52,660 about 50% of the live in the slums of Tel-Aviv in the southern parts of the city, 232 00:27:53,650 --> 00:27:59,410 the southern parts of the city, the slums of Tel Aviv, were the weakest Jewish population lives. 233 00:27:59,830 --> 00:28:05,770 So what really happened is what happens all over the world in neighbourhoods of refugees or neighbourhoods of newcomers, 234 00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:12,729 the lower or the low class of the locals meets the new migrants. 235 00:28:12,730 --> 00:28:20,110 And there's a lot of tension and friction over resources, over space, over legitimacy and so on. 236 00:28:20,380 --> 00:28:30,400 So that's really one of the main issues that are now on the table where we can see that there is a clash between two underprivileged groups, 237 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,590 the local, the Jewish Israelis and the others, the African asylum seekers. 238 00:28:37,780 --> 00:28:46,689 What's truly interesting, because I'm I have a broad perspective because I've been studying African migration to Israel for almost 20 years is to see 239 00:28:46,690 --> 00:28:54,579 the difference between the discourses and the whole conduct where the first cohort of African migrants from West Africa, 240 00:28:54,580 --> 00:29:01,090 the labour migrants, they hardly spoke about their rights to migrate to Israel. 241 00:29:01,450 --> 00:29:06,790 They hardly used the Jewish history in order to gain legitimacy in Israel. 242 00:29:06,970 --> 00:29:08,140 They didn't do that. 243 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:20,470 However, the new cohort of of African asylum seekers really knows the history of the Jewish people, uses it in its plea for asylum, 244 00:29:21,370 --> 00:29:29,680 and also very, very well acquainted with the rights that they are supposed to get through the Refugee Convention. 245 00:29:29,950 --> 00:29:38,409 So it's interesting to see that. Another interesting thing to see is the political organisation of African asylum seekers in Israel. 246 00:29:38,410 --> 00:29:39,010 In the past, 247 00:29:39,010 --> 00:29:47,860 through three or four years they managed to rally huge demonstrations with thousands and thousands of asylum seekers and also thousands of Israelis. 248 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:58,450 This is one of the issues that the Israeli civil society is really being split, but very, very active, pro and against the very, very active. 249 00:29:58,810 --> 00:30:02,860 And for people who know the Israeli civil society, which usually is very indifferent. 250 00:30:03,460 --> 00:30:06,940 To most issues in other places are very interesting. 251 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,500 It's it's at least intriguing to learn about it. 252 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,580 I think the 2012 is really the changing point. 253 00:30:15,930 --> 00:30:16,570 First of all, 254 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:25,150 the group protection on South Sudanese was lifted because South Sudan became independent and thousands of South Sudanese were returned home. 255 00:30:25,510 --> 00:30:29,950 The border was the border was completed, as I said before. 256 00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:40,450 And the state of Israel constructed a new prison in the desert called Whole Lot, which literally means sand. 257 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:50,380 And people who started entering Israel or refused to exit Israel were sent to unlimited time to Holland. 258 00:30:51,220 --> 00:30:55,770 So people who were seeking asylum were facing a dire situation. 259 00:30:55,780 --> 00:31:05,920 Either you go to a third country, i.e. Uganda, Rwanda, you don't go back to your own home or you're going to prison to an unlimited time. 260 00:31:06,250 --> 00:31:10,450 And this is the dilemma that most of them are facing right now. 261 00:31:11,260 --> 00:31:22,870 And parallel to the legal decrees that the state of Israel issued in order to stop new ones from coming and to 262 00:31:22,870 --> 00:31:36,160 encourage those who were to to leave was instigating a hate debate hate debate against what was called infiltrators. 263 00:31:36,610 --> 00:31:38,290 And because, as I said before, 264 00:31:38,290 --> 00:31:47,980 infiltrators that are symbolically related and linguistically related and ideologically related to Palestinian terrorist. 265 00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:51,040 Once you use this word in the Hebrew language, 266 00:31:51,280 --> 00:32:02,560 immediately there is a whole world of association that rises that truly is not linked to issues of asylum seekers and refugees. 267 00:32:03,490 --> 00:32:08,980 So as we're speaking right now from February 1st, 2018, 268 00:32:09,490 --> 00:32:14,740 the option for young men with no family that come from Eritrea and Sudan is either 269 00:32:14,740 --> 00:32:26,380 to leave to Rwanda and Uganda with $3,500 or to be jailed it unlimited time. 270 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:34,330 And this really raises a lot of moral questions, legal questions, 271 00:32:34,750 --> 00:32:47,530 questions about the identity of the state of Israel and where are we going with the situation of African asylum seekers or asylum seekers in general. 272 00:32:49,030 --> 00:32:58,930 Thank you for openness, of which is going to ask us to tell us what happens to them when they get to these third countries. 273 00:33:00,550 --> 00:33:11,350 That's the quote that I started with is is a quote of one of the Eritreans who went to Uganda and has no life there. 274 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:21,280 I mean, I'll go back and I'll ask the question, why would you deport an Eritrean to Uganda? 275 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:29,290 Because he's black and they're black because you have good relation with the president and you can sell these 276 00:33:29,290 --> 00:33:38,770 people and pay $5,000 per person to the Ugandan government or the Rwandan or whatever government would agree. 277 00:33:39,130 --> 00:33:45,070 What is the the ideology and ideology behind it or the legal frame behind it? 278 00:33:45,460 --> 00:33:54,040 That's something that I really don't have an answer. But what I do have an answer is they are sent back not to their immediate death. 279 00:33:54,040 --> 00:34:02,619 That would be really a demagogic way of saying it. But they're sent to a country that is poor, that is struggling with its own issues. 280 00:34:02,620 --> 00:34:08,800 It has at least Uganda and Rwanda have over a million refugees within their country. 281 00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:18,520 They have no net of support. They have no extended family, a very weak civil society, not very competent UNHCR officers. 282 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,749 So how are they going to manage? And that's a huge question. 283 00:34:22,750 --> 00:34:29,830 And what our research has shown, the one that I started and a lot of my students have kept going on with this research, 284 00:34:30,220 --> 00:34:40,240 is that a lot of them just go back into the refugee cycle and try and migrate via Libya, the Mediterranean to Europe. 285 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,810 Some make it and some die en route. 286 00:34:44,170 --> 00:34:47,350 So that is, you know, what's really happening. 287 00:34:50,650 --> 00:34:53,710 Let's turn to the question, though. 288 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,750 Why do the well-educated initial migrants go to Israel? 289 00:34:59,860 --> 00:35:07,590 I mean, like surely they would have a good time. But only it would have had good prospects in their own country. 290 00:35:07,890 --> 00:35:12,600 No one is in the when the end is not what you should to do with infiltration of law. 291 00:35:13,050 --> 00:35:16,700 You mentioned enemy states, but these aren't any mistakes, are they? 292 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,920 Okay, I'll start with your first question. 293 00:35:21,310 --> 00:35:27,960 It it's a huge enigma in many ways and a very simple question in other ways. 294 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:40,470 Let's say someone I met, Ghanaian doctors, MDs that made in Ghana between 200 and $300 a month coming to Israel. 295 00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:46,770 They would make between a thousand and 1500 per month as house cleaners. 296 00:35:47,730 --> 00:35:52,620 So it was truly within this first batch of of migrants. 297 00:35:52,620 --> 00:35:58,290 It was a, you know, a classical labour migrant that you just improve your your financial status. 298 00:35:58,650 --> 00:36:01,020 And that's between a doctor and a housecleaner. 299 00:36:01,050 --> 00:36:08,340 Now, let alone when you think about a housewife or someone who is only has a bachelor degree that comes from Ghana, Nigeria. 300 00:36:08,610 --> 00:36:15,480 So the gap between what he made back home and what he can make working as a housecleaner in in in Tel Aviv or in London. 301 00:36:15,810 --> 00:36:20,640 You know, this this huge amount of money is is is a great attraction for them. 302 00:36:20,670 --> 00:36:27,120 So that's for your first question. The second question about the infiltration law in Sudan, 303 00:36:27,420 --> 00:36:36,960 where at least 20,000 asylum seeker claims from came from, is considered an enemy country to Israel. 304 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:45,240 So the infiltration law does apply to them. However, it doesn't apply to Eritreans and definitely not to people who seek asylum. 305 00:36:48,060 --> 00:36:51,690 Yeah. What's the language? The language. 306 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:58,770 These moments come with other languages. They come with Israel in another language, and then they're going back to a country of another. 307 00:36:58,770 --> 00:37:07,770 No, it's true. Well, most of them do manage either with English in Israel or they study basic Hebrew. 308 00:37:08,310 --> 00:37:12,960 They study basic Hebrew. And those coming from Eritrea that speak Tigrinya, 309 00:37:13,650 --> 00:37:19,860 they can communicate with Ethiopian Jews that came from the northern part of Ethiopia and also speak Tigrinya. 310 00:37:19,860 --> 00:37:23,460 But most of them either learn very quickly Hebrew or they speak in English. 311 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:29,820 Yeah. Now when they go back to when they knock back, when they are deported to Uganda, Rwanda, you're right. 312 00:37:29,970 --> 00:37:34,560 Again, it's either English or. No, Uganda and Rwanda. 313 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,100 It's English. Yeah. No need. 314 00:37:40,660 --> 00:37:53,610 Now, two questions. First of all, I remember when I lived in the South until I mean, I used to hear all these people around me speaking. 315 00:37:53,610 --> 00:38:03,130 And the 111 day I heard Nigerian Nigerians speak and rant about their neighbours. 316 00:38:03,210 --> 00:38:08,010 Spoken English. I could finally understand what's going on around me. 317 00:38:08,580 --> 00:38:17,760 And I realised that the relations between subgroups are transposed and others are not always perfect. 318 00:38:17,890 --> 00:38:24,060 Right. So since then, I've been wondering what's what's really the relations. 319 00:38:24,060 --> 00:38:32,090 That's I mean, I mean, obviously it varies and but it's there is anything anyway to summarise. 320 00:38:32,130 --> 00:38:39,000 Yeah, that's that's okay. That's a really, really, really interesting and intriguing phenomena. 321 00:38:39,930 --> 00:38:48,000 When the African migration African migrants were few, hundreds and few thousand, there was very much an African identity. 322 00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:50,640 Okay. They came from the African continent. 323 00:38:51,060 --> 00:38:57,870 We had churches that had Nigerians, Ghanaians, Congolese, which were French speaking, Sierra Leone and others. 324 00:38:58,170 --> 00:39:04,770 But once the community grew, there were fractions based on nationality and then based on ethnicity. 325 00:39:04,830 --> 00:39:09,030 Okay, that would be one thing. Then when the African asylum seekers came, 326 00:39:09,390 --> 00:39:18,540 then on the one hand there was this black African identity and on the other hand we are not they, they are others. 327 00:39:18,540 --> 00:39:22,949 So you would see that. But you know, you see that amongst Jews. 328 00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:29,459 You see that amongst, you know, veteran migrants versus new migrants, upper class migrants versus lower class migrants. 329 00:39:29,460 --> 00:39:42,150 So these divisions did appear. However, now, when when there is this these African infiltrators, it, you know, said to hospitals, bye bye, bye bye, 330 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:52,620 some politicians or right wing activists, then they don't make a distinction and everybody that is black is hurt, including Ethiopian Jews. 331 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:58,410 Okay. So, yeah, she had another question. 332 00:39:58,410 --> 00:40:09,050 I thank you so much for your time, but since I got here, I actually saw it's all so personal that I, 333 00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:20,550 I got to to discuss this issue with many, many students who are working on the migration and migration studies and refugee studies here. 334 00:40:20,810 --> 00:40:28,560 And, and, you know, I could put in a great story in a much broader framework. 335 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:38,700 And and it is clear that other countries, such as Italy and Greece are facing problematic situations as well. 336 00:40:39,090 --> 00:40:42,260 And it seems as if so. 337 00:40:42,330 --> 00:40:50,710 I was wondering if you could say a few words about how Israel is positioned and reaction to Nazi Germany and, 338 00:40:50,940 --> 00:40:54,870 you know, strong countries were able to accept refugees. 339 00:40:54,870 --> 00:41:09,270 But yeah, if we we're in February 2018, Israel has 37,000 Africans seeking asylum. 340 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:18,210 That's it. Not more, not less. I think that the state of Israel is strong enough to grant them temporary residency 341 00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:24,450 and in the time perceived their refugee status determination applications properly. 342 00:41:25,230 --> 00:41:31,890 Those who would be granted refugee status, according to the United Nations Convention, 343 00:41:32,220 --> 00:41:39,090 should remain in the country as long as the situation in their country has not changed and there is still danger to their lives. 344 00:41:39,630 --> 00:41:46,050 Those who are not eligible to the status, then it's a whole different story. 345 00:41:46,050 --> 00:41:52,740 And then the state of Israel has the moral and the legal right to deport or to find a solution. 346 00:41:53,040 --> 00:42:02,790 But 37,000 African asylum seeker is not a threat, neither to the Jewish nature or character of the state of Israel, nor to its democratic. 347 00:42:02,790 --> 00:42:10,379 And I think it's our obligation to accept them as long as their their lives is in danger if they're returning. 348 00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:16,310 But that's what I think. So, yeah. I'm just so it's it's I mean and I agree. 349 00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:18,810 Yes. No, no. The question is, 350 00:42:20,130 --> 00:42:34,320 if we if we can compare the the the official statements of Israel to other European countries such as Italy and Greece and their policy as well, 351 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:39,450 because from what I understand that it's these refugees are jailed. 352 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:44,720 As well for and are not the refugees, the asylum seekers. 353 00:42:44,750 --> 00:42:54,040 Once you are a refugee, you're not due. But listen, all these countries have taken in a certain number of asylum seekers and refugees. 354 00:42:54,060 --> 00:43:01,340 They they already have taken. So their policies that are being constructed now are poss taking in. 355 00:43:01,370 --> 00:43:09,760 I mean, they're looking at the future. Israel has not taken its share in this global refugee migration cycle. 356 00:43:09,770 --> 00:43:15,980 And I think that once it will take its share, then it can have more stricter regulation. 357 00:43:16,220 --> 00:43:21,080 Voice of the new asylum seekers whether coming from Africa from other countries. 358 00:43:23,300 --> 00:43:30,000 Do you live here and on the actual legal system of. Thanks, because there has been a system set up. 359 00:43:31,630 --> 00:43:37,660 My understanding is I volunteered for a while because my understanding there was that there's actually a very 360 00:43:37,660 --> 00:43:43,210 professional system and the claims go up to the desk of the minister and the minister just refuses to sign. 361 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:56,380 And in many cases, I'll I'll I'll go from the end point back up until today, Israel recognised 12 countries as refugees. 362 00:43:56,590 --> 00:44:02,800 That's it out of about 30 or so thousand applications. 363 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:15,610 How did they choose this structure? They had to have the worst horrific stories, A and B, they had to have a very, very good legal advice. 364 00:44:16,270 --> 00:44:28,630 And most of them were victims of human trafficking and atrocities that were that they suffered in the Sinai Desert from the Bedouin people. 365 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:33,820 But only 12, that's it. The 12th was recognised last week. 366 00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:40,100 So that shows that a the system is extremely strict. 367 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,809 I mean, you can't even count it in percentage wise. 368 00:44:43,810 --> 00:44:52,510 It's 0.037 recognition rate, whereas Greece has the lowest recognition rate and I think it's 1.5%. 369 00:44:53,260 --> 00:44:58,030 Okay. Most Eritreans in Europe it's about 70% recognition. 370 00:44:58,390 --> 00:45:03,969 Sudanese, it's about 55% recognition in their applications to Israel by no means no. 371 00:45:03,970 --> 00:45:12,340 Now, as I said before, in the beginning it was the UNHCR who did the process and then the state of Israel took over in 2009 and 2013. 372 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:17,559 And there is a professional team, but it's very small, limited number of people, 373 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:24,400 and they just can't cope with the number of of requests that take time to issue. 374 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:33,330 And then when they do process it, usually the they they just reject the requests. 375 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,700 Yeah. And how many people even get to process claims? 376 00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:51,190 Okay. Up until today, about 7000, I think African refugee claims were processed in about the same number of Ukraine claims of refugees Israel had. 377 00:45:52,090 --> 00:46:02,260 Israel had in the past four years, about 25,000 Ukraine and Moldavian and other excuses for people seeking asylum in our country. 378 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:08,800 And most of them were rejected and deported back to Ukraine, not to a third country. 379 00:46:08,830 --> 00:46:11,870 Yeah, that's something that a lot of people don't speak about. Yeah. 380 00:46:13,450 --> 00:46:20,440 You had just to give commenting on that an observation and then a question. 381 00:46:20,830 --> 00:46:25,650 And my impression is with the immigration and so, you know, 382 00:46:25,740 --> 00:46:36,639 I think Brexit the Trump election you know on the long you go that that there has not been a distinction legal and illegal that seems to be missing. 383 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:41,620 You know whichever side you. Not the same. 384 00:46:42,170 --> 00:46:45,530 I suspect there is a difference between legal and illegal. 385 00:46:46,010 --> 00:46:51,230 And the question, the other things that you looked at, things like cultural differences. 386 00:46:51,740 --> 00:46:55,820 And because it's easy to say after you get a move back or something like that, but I mean, 387 00:46:56,330 --> 00:47:03,590 that Eastern Europe and the things there are profound cultural differences that I think we we pick up very quickly. 388 00:47:04,580 --> 00:47:09,950 I mean, I think there are languages, for instance, in which is no word for thank you, because the idea of grace is just not there. 389 00:47:10,490 --> 00:47:14,690 You know, heaven doesn't makes seem to shine sensational the just that the unjust. 390 00:47:14,690 --> 00:47:17,420 But that is not an idea that didn't in the culture. 391 00:47:17,850 --> 00:47:28,220 Well, you know there are lots of little things like that that that you sit back and say, but my suspicion is that they do play into this somewhere, 392 00:47:28,550 --> 00:47:33,440 even if it's only the level of what you do, like know, living in a favela with your neighbours. 393 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:41,570 Okay. As to your first question about legal status. 394 00:47:41,930 --> 00:47:43,850 To the best of my knowledge, 395 00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:52,610 there are hardly any refugees that enter a country with a legal document prior to their entry and prior to their seeking asylum, 396 00:47:53,060 --> 00:47:58,190 i.e., any crossing of borders is by definition illegal. 397 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:06,710 Okay, so when you speak about refugees and then then once you cross the border, you cross it illegally. 398 00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:13,970 Once you are in the country that you're seeking asylum, you can process papers and a request for asylum. 399 00:48:14,270 --> 00:48:20,500 So there is no a pre journey, a refugee visa. 400 00:48:20,570 --> 00:48:30,980 There are hardly any pre journey. So each and every asylum seeker in the world has gone through a process of being illegal in a certain country. 401 00:48:31,010 --> 00:48:42,650 Okay. So that is one thing. Once you process your papers, you are in a very specific legal situation where you are seeking asylum. 402 00:48:43,190 --> 00:48:54,620 Now, countries around the world have different rules and regulations concerning this in-between status, but it is illegal status to seek asylum. 403 00:48:55,010 --> 00:48:58,330 Then you seek it and either you get it or you're refused. 404 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,180 Then your legal status changes. So that's one thing. 405 00:49:02,210 --> 00:49:09,650 The other thing is with migration in general, obviously people who overstay their visas, 406 00:49:09,650 --> 00:49:17,630 whether it's a student visa or a working visa or any other visa, are illegally in the country that they are. 407 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:28,240 So of course, there is there is a distinction, and I hope that I made it clear, but all those seeking asylum go through a phase of being illegal. 408 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:35,150 One point as to the question of of cultural refugee of of cultural differences obviously you. 409 00:49:35,170 --> 00:49:42,079 Right. And because it was just an overview, I didn't go into it, but when I did my studies, 410 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:49,490 I truly went into the specificities of ethnic and sub ethnic identities. 411 00:49:50,060 --> 00:49:56,389 However, in these kind of discourses, 412 00:49:56,390 --> 00:50:05,000 people tend to generalise and even politicians and policy would like say all those coming from this country or that country. 413 00:50:05,420 --> 00:50:10,610 However, the Refugee Convention really speaks about the individual person, 414 00:50:10,610 --> 00:50:19,790 and that's exactly why the convention is so strict about processing the request based on your individual story, 415 00:50:19,790 --> 00:50:29,000 your individual cultural background, or why you were persecuted and so on, your gender and all that counts in that process. 416 00:50:30,740 --> 00:50:37,040 Yeah, man. Sarah. So I have two questions. 417 00:50:37,730 --> 00:50:43,310 The first one is, um, I'm wondering because we, we looked at the numbers. 418 00:50:43,550 --> 00:50:47,270 Numbers are striking the, the difference between the numbers. 419 00:50:48,950 --> 00:51:00,620 But I'm wondering if there is a defining moment there in mind where those people who came from, uh, refugees or asylum seekers to infiltrators or. 420 00:51:00,950 --> 00:51:07,760 Or some defining moments apart from the huge number rising up. 421 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,670 Hmm. The first one. And then the second one. 422 00:51:11,720 --> 00:51:23,060 So, based on my familiarity with your earlier work, I'm wondering if you have any when you were doing this, when you doing it's been working for you, 423 00:51:23,060 --> 00:51:32,330 have any thoughts and you have specific attention now towards these people's spiritual and religious, uh, experiences. 424 00:51:32,690 --> 00:51:42,409 And if you do have insights into, into that, do they kind of stay more in the kind of in the back stage of your study? 425 00:51:42,410 --> 00:51:48,980 Or do they do they become part of those that you make on of immigration issues? 426 00:51:49,070 --> 00:52:00,799 Okay. It's interesting the issue of numbers and I put back the chart with the numbers when they started to come to Israel in 2007, 427 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:12,260 the then prime minister, I think it was one month gave or acknowledged 500 asylum seekers from Sudan and gave them temporary residency in Israel. 428 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:19,310 And again, this was 500 more were were gaining that status a few years later. 429 00:52:19,550 --> 00:52:28,850 And just recently, the government issued another thousand of a temporary status for those coming from Darfur and South Sudan, 430 00:52:28,850 --> 00:52:30,679 the few remaining from South Sudan. 431 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:39,350 So, yes, they're they're the numbers, the change in the discourse between refugee survivors of the genocide in Darfur, 432 00:52:39,350 --> 00:52:45,649 which were very common in the first few years, completely eliminated from the discourse today. 433 00:52:45,650 --> 00:52:49,370 And it's infiltrators and black infiltrators and cancer and so on. 434 00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:55,010 And now because of the protests, the government is saying, no, no, no, 435 00:52:55,010 --> 00:53:06,680 we are landing or extending a merciful hand to some, to true refugees, to survivors of the genocide. 436 00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:13,370 And here are 1000 more visas, but the vast majority are still related to US infiltrators. 437 00:53:13,820 --> 00:53:15,290 As to the second question. 438 00:53:15,950 --> 00:53:23,330 It's interesting because I who sit in the churches, that was the first thing I was looking there, spiritual life of the Eritreans and Sudanese. 439 00:53:23,750 --> 00:53:29,239 And this was interesting because they were younger. They were it's a different Christianity. 440 00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:35,210 It's the Eastern Christianity. It's very similar to the Greek Orthodox Church is the Ethiopian Eritrean church. 441 00:53:35,690 --> 00:53:40,900 They did go to the Ethiopian church in Jerusalem and pray there. 442 00:53:40,940 --> 00:53:48,319 I mean, they didn't create their own Christianity, but they didn't celebrate their religiosity as strong as the African migrants that came from Ghana. 443 00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:54,680 In Nigeria, this Sudanese, it's more complex because those coming from Darfur are Muslims. 444 00:53:55,370 --> 00:54:00,710 Now they quickly realised that if they are going to celebrate their Muslim identity, 445 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:08,540 that would be the end of any merciful and humanitarian gesture toward them within the state of Israel. 446 00:54:09,050 --> 00:54:14,810 Because not only that, they're black infiltrators, Sudanese, they're also Muslims. 447 00:54:15,710 --> 00:54:21,140 So that was something that was too much to celebrate in the public arena. 448 00:54:21,140 --> 00:54:26,690 So they do practice their their Islamic identity, if they wish, mainly within their private homes. 449 00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:40,700 I have one of my graduate students who has been working on Sudanese asylum seekers that live in Arab villages in the Galilee and work there. 450 00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,060 It's, it's, it's several dozens. But it's interesting. 451 00:54:44,690 --> 00:54:53,970 Yeah. Yeah. And, and how, how are they received by the Muslim and Palestinian? 452 00:54:55,610 --> 00:55:07,309 It's an excellent question. You know, the genocide in Darfur was instigated by Arab Muslims against black Muslims and the issue of race was playing. 453 00:55:07,310 --> 00:55:16,520 There are not religiosity. And the Darfurian blacks hate the Arab Muslims because they are responsible for the genocide. 454 00:55:16,940 --> 00:55:23,090 Now they come to Israel and it's Arab Muslims. Okay, so there is a huge animosity. 455 00:55:23,510 --> 00:55:30,290 However, when they were seeking life and trying to get away from Tel Aviv, they did go. 456 00:55:30,340 --> 00:55:42,540 To the Arab villages. They are treated as blacks and they are called Zanjeer, which is a derogatory term for blacks within the Arab language zenwatch, 457 00:55:42,550 --> 00:55:48,340 which is a word also used to describe slaves in an ancient time. 458 00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:55,480 So here it's race that plays rather than religious identity. 459 00:55:57,610 --> 00:56:01,750 Yes. First I have a vignette and then I have a couple of questions. 460 00:56:01,780 --> 00:56:09,069 When I was in high school. 1997, 1998, when I was in Israel, I was already told that if my parents sent me to the American school, 461 00:56:09,070 --> 00:56:11,440 my best friends was the son of the Thai ambassador, 462 00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:19,650 and only now I realise why his father was so busy all the time, because this was the height of Thai worker phenomenon. 463 00:56:20,060 --> 00:56:26,860 Now in Israel, because all I remember is his father being very stressed out, you know, rushing from one meeting to the other in suits. 464 00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:32,049 Two interrelated questions that aren't so much about the African migrants themselves and more about 465 00:56:32,050 --> 00:56:36,430 the reception of this whole crisis was with the Israeli public or maybe also the broader public. 466 00:56:36,910 --> 00:56:39,540 The first is, I think this subject came up a couple of weeks ago. 467 00:56:39,550 --> 00:56:48,490 We had another guest here is that I tend to see a lot of the Israelis that for one reason or another are not particularly 468 00:56:48,610 --> 00:56:54,159 juiced up about injustices against Palestinians who become extremely involved in the African migrant crisis, 469 00:56:54,160 --> 00:57:03,440 which obviously has a different kind of resonance on the scale of morality, which is part of it, I think is, you know, conflict fatigue. 470 00:57:03,460 --> 00:57:11,950 But I'm wondering first why it is that it seems to be easier for Israelis in some way to get involved with this and not with that, 471 00:57:12,220 --> 00:57:17,260 although there is obviously across a big population of activists who work on both causes, etc. 472 00:57:17,310 --> 00:57:22,090 And the second was I saw that you had an a poster up there that said Black Lives Matter. 473 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:27,430 And one of the things that I've been very interested in in this new project I'm working on that I'll tell you about more is really about why, 474 00:57:27,430 --> 00:57:32,259 you know, today in the diaspora you can't be a Zionist and Black Lives Matter, but here they are, you know, 475 00:57:32,260 --> 00:57:37,480 specifically mobilising the tropes of this international, you know, international movement for their cause. 476 00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,959 And I'm wondering how that's received abroad, whether, you know, 477 00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:46,030 activists of Black Lives Matter have seized on this issue or are they indifferent 478 00:57:46,030 --> 00:57:50,350 because it's within the state of Israel and they generally do not see a way of, 479 00:57:51,100 --> 00:58:01,559 you know, collaborating on projects that deal with the state of Israel. As to your first question, that's a huge issue to be explored. 480 00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:09,900 And that is why I in the beginning of my talk, at least twice, I said that it is related to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. 481 00:58:10,260 --> 00:58:14,460 And a lot of people in Israel opt not to relate to it. 482 00:58:14,610 --> 00:58:19,590 But this is not the only issue that a lot of Israeli activists make. 483 00:58:19,740 --> 00:58:27,120 You know, how do you make them feel from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and adopt issues of human right and liberal left, 484 00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:30,749 liberal, but turning a blind eye to the Palestine? 485 00:58:30,750 --> 00:58:38,909 I think that being a human rights activist vs of the African migration is less threatening to a lot of 486 00:58:38,910 --> 00:58:44,810 Israelis than being a right wing and a left wing activist vis a vis the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. 487 00:58:44,900 --> 00:58:49,230 But that's that's what I you know, I would that would be a general. 488 00:58:49,950 --> 00:58:54,569 Do you think the social cost is different? I mean, it seems to me that my friends who are involved in the African migrant movement 489 00:58:54,570 --> 00:58:58,120 are not paying the same social cost as friends who are on the left in Israel. 490 00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:05,120 Regarding right now, anybody who's who's saying anything against the Israeli government is being labelled as a leftist. 491 00:59:05,130 --> 00:59:10,290 So it doesn't really matter. What is the cause that you're adopting to to criticise. 492 00:59:10,290 --> 00:59:14,730 You are labelled. But maybe yes, the price is much higher. 493 00:59:15,060 --> 00:59:20,969 As to the Black Lives Matter, that was a one time sign that I saw that I thought was very, very interesting. 494 00:59:20,970 --> 00:59:24,930 I don't think that the movement in the U.S. or the UK has picked up, 495 00:59:25,170 --> 00:59:31,770 but I think that the African asylum seekers are so well aware of all the discourses of black 496 00:59:31,770 --> 00:59:36,810 rights around the world that they thought that if they would pick up that kind of discourse, 497 00:59:36,990 --> 00:59:42,900 that would matter to others that yeah, certainly possible black. 498 00:59:45,220 --> 00:59:49,090 My last question to a related question. 499 00:59:49,660 --> 00:59:55,990 I guess, one of the things that is recurring here, I guess it's still in the air is the question. 500 00:59:56,860 --> 01:00:01,809 So what would be in your eyes, the uniquely Israeli aspect of this story? 501 01:00:01,810 --> 01:00:05,950 Because it is you just you insisted on showing that it is a global story. 502 01:00:07,150 --> 01:00:08,410 And there are two ways, I think, 503 01:00:08,410 --> 01:00:17,200 to understanding it would be the sort of two related questions how is the Israeli case illuminated the complexity of European history, 504 01:00:17,740 --> 01:00:23,140 or do you mean the contemporary story? And how is it illuminated when compared to other Middle Eastern countries, 505 01:00:23,260 --> 01:00:29,560 other Middle Eastern countries absorbing any of the stuff, which is how they do of how do they cope with that? 506 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:36,219 Okay. So first of all, I think that it's it's a local story. 507 01:00:36,220 --> 01:00:43,900 It's both global and local. It has its global resonance, obviously, but Israel has its unique history. 508 01:00:43,900 --> 01:00:48,160 And I think that due to the unique Israeli Jewish history, 509 01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:59,200 I think Israel has to adopt a policy that is in some way different than other countries not going into one side. 510 01:00:59,230 --> 01:01:07,750 I mean, it has to be, you know, both strict keeping and maintaining the state of Israel as a safe haven for the Jewish people. 511 01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:19,419 At the same time, it has to use or to put into action the unique history of Jewish refugees. 512 01:01:19,420 --> 01:01:28,510 So trying to find this path, which is neither on this side nor on that side, and keeps the Jewish state of Israel as a Jewish safe haven, 513 01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,870 but being a safe haven to Jews because of our unique history, 514 01:01:32,050 --> 01:01:38,740 we do have to be more sensitive to people who are running for their lives, who are victims of genocide. 515 01:01:38,740 --> 01:01:41,830 So I think that that's where we are in a unique position. 516 01:01:42,100 --> 01:01:49,570 And as to your second question, Turkey has over 1.5 million Syrian refugees. 517 01:01:49,930 --> 01:01:55,720 Jordan has over 1.7, I think a million refugees. 518 01:01:56,080 --> 01:02:02,690 Lebanon is a state of refugees. Egypt has several millions of refugees. 519 01:02:02,700 --> 01:02:07,509 So in that sense, we are not unique. We are part of the Middle East. 520 01:02:07,510 --> 01:02:16,540 And I didn't speak at all about the several hundred Syrian refugees that are in Israel, but that's a drop of it's really insignificant. 521 01:02:17,260 --> 01:02:23,799 So, yes, we are part and we sometimes we want to be part of and other times we want to be unique. 522 01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:28,030 And that's why it's such a global phenomena. Yes. 523 01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:46,000 Well, I'm going to ask you a question which you've already answered in Egypt, general question that you do with Julius Caesar, 18 Arabs more and with. 524 01:02:48,450 --> 01:02:51,510 It is this sort of seeing that you are there. 525 01:02:51,540 --> 01:03:04,170 So ten people somewhere in Syria sitting at this time talking about refugees from the war in Syria, not us talking. 526 01:03:04,980 --> 01:03:17,130 Well, he he said some the European Western, which tends to although it's happening really it doesn't concern Middle East population. 527 01:03:18,450 --> 01:03:30,420 I'm saying, are there people like that who are in the meetings who really think that the whole question of refugee European that's. 528 01:03:32,590 --> 01:03:34,580 I know it's a yeah. 529 01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:47,169 If you slide, I think that if you go on the net you will find a lot of human rights activists in all the countries around the Middle East, 530 01:03:47,170 --> 01:03:53,680 but their lives are in misery and sometimes their lives is in danger. 531 01:03:54,250 --> 01:04:06,820 And I. Yeah, and yet, in spite of their difficult situation, they struggle to change their the situation from within. 532 01:04:07,210 --> 01:04:10,600 But thank God that at least in Israel and other places, 533 01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:21,310 we live in a democracy and we can and should speak out and think also about the limits of democracy and the benefits of democracy. 534 01:04:21,810 --> 01:04:29,200 When we see that in a democracy. Sorry, I don't want to go on about what's happening in Germany. 535 01:04:30,010 --> 01:04:33,700 In Germany. I think in so many people. 536 01:04:34,180 --> 01:04:38,110 Saudi Arabia got taken. Yeah, that's right. That's right. 537 01:04:38,350 --> 01:04:42,339 Of the fans of the Hajj, you know that we're standing all year long, 538 01:04:42,340 --> 01:04:47,920 these air conditioned, beautiful tents which would be used to house a lot of people. 539 01:04:48,100 --> 01:04:53,370 So no money. Yeah, sorry, don't do that. 540 01:04:53,890 --> 01:05:03,010 It's confusing because until Gaza this happened, the state of Israel right now it's eight point something million and what called elections. 541 01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:09,910 Israel has one of the highest fertility rate within the OECD countries. 542 01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:22,890 And it's and you know, people say, yeah, it's it's like this, you know, 88 .8. something is both of them. 543 01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:29,530 Yeah. Eight point something is those holding Israeli citizenship, both Jews and Arabs and migration. 544 01:05:29,890 --> 01:05:36,370 Now, you know, oh, no, Jews who have migrated have an Israeli citizenship. 545 01:05:36,370 --> 01:05:41,050 That's why they're counted within the 8.2 or three. Yeah, million. 546 01:05:41,950 --> 01:05:49,599 Thank you so much. I should mention my new project. 547 01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:51,720 The other case study is South Africa. The.