1 00:00:08,980 --> 00:00:16,150 Good afternoon and welcome, everybody. Thank you for coming up for this last meeting of Hillary two. 2 00:00:17,980 --> 00:00:27,100 I'm honoured and delighted to present today to introduce today my friend and colleague Dr. Yuval every who's coming to us today from us. 3 00:00:28,210 --> 00:00:35,980 Dr. Every every, every is a sociologist and a cultural researcher who focuses on the political, 4 00:00:36,010 --> 00:00:41,890 intellectual history of the land of Israel Palestine at the turn of the 20th century. 5 00:00:43,180 --> 00:00:49,480 Dr. Evans Research has deepened and enlightened our understanding of the past and present of the Middle East at large. 6 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:55,030 And he offers viable parts in which we may progress in the future. 7 00:00:55,040 --> 00:01:02,260 I would say, if we wish to overcome some of the misfortunate predicaments and grave injustices of the current situation in the region. 8 00:01:03,940 --> 00:01:12,520 The title of this talk, Today's Andalusian legacy is the role of Andalusia Forward in the Political and Cultural History of Israel Palestine. 9 00:01:12,970 --> 00:01:17,140 Thank you for coming. Thank you very much, Echo for the introduction and for the invitation. 10 00:01:17,170 --> 00:01:24,880 I'm really happy to be here and I need to say something maybe about the my surname, about every Iraqi just to be Arab. 11 00:01:26,340 --> 00:01:29,530 And my family changes when they immigrate to Israel. 12 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:36,700 And I thought that it's a it's a legend. But when I moved to London, I realised it was some a Jewish name, surname, Arab. 13 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:44,290 There's energy Arab. I don't know if you know what it's like, but there is few Jewish Iraqi that their surname is Arab. 14 00:01:44,300 --> 00:01:57,170 So my, my, my name originally is Arab now I'm called every is very of Hebrew is precise name and very Israeli and new Jewish name in many, 15 00:01:57,190 --> 00:02:00,460 many ways I've been to we tend to the to the altar. 16 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,889 And I think in many ways it's connected to the things that I'm I'm dealing with in the last ten years in my research, 17 00:02:05,890 --> 00:02:15,310 the connection between Hebrew and Arabic and what I'm going to do today, it's a mixture of a few things that interested me in the last ten years. 18 00:02:16,030 --> 00:02:20,020 One of them is the Arab-Jewish intellectual thought in the turn of the 20th century. 19 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:34,780 The second is the dam, the permanent rule of al-Andalus safeguards for God and as a of course, is as a legacy, as a symbol, as a research object, 20 00:02:35,740 --> 00:02:43,260 as a poetic symbol or poetic genre in the in the turn of the 20th century to to 21 00:02:43,270 --> 00:02:48,549 Palestine in general and to the connection between Jews and Muslims in that time. 22 00:02:48,550 --> 00:02:53,290 So what I'm going to talk today, it's it's a combination of few, few things that I'm interested in. 23 00:02:53,770 --> 00:03:00,570 And so let's start how can we write the Arab-Jewish intellectual history in the post partition? 24 00:03:00,610 --> 00:03:08,680 And how can we re-imagine its historical and geographical folds full scope after more than a century of physical, 25 00:03:08,710 --> 00:03:14,620 social and cultural and political displacement, marginalisation and negation? 26 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:19,150 Post partition in this context applies not only to the partition of Palestine, 27 00:03:19,570 --> 00:03:25,540 but also to the separation of disciplines, traditions, histories and languages between Hebrew and Arabic, 28 00:03:25,630 --> 00:03:30,850 between and between Hebrew literature and Arabic literature, between Judaism and Islam, 29 00:03:31,300 --> 00:03:36,040 Zionism and Arab nationalism, Jewish and Arab ness, and between Sephardi and al-Andalus. 30 00:03:36,820 --> 00:03:45,070 In this post partition environment, it is not surprising that the boundary become so crucial in the research of Arab Jewish Sephardi literature. 31 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:51,700 What are the field's boundary lines in terms of language, temporality and space place? 32 00:03:52,060 --> 00:03:58,840 For instance, what is the linguistic scope Arabic, Hebrew, Judeo Arabic, Ladino, French or English? 33 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:06,160 And is it a division of larger Jewish literary field? 34 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:13,240 Should it be considered as part of Hebrew, Arabic to the Muslim, Spanish or postcolonial literary framework? 35 00:04:13,990 --> 00:04:23,110 What should be the field's point of departure? Medieval al-Andalus or modern time or post 1948, 1492 or 1882? 36 00:04:23,860 --> 00:04:29,680 Nada or Hebrew Scholar. What should be the framework of the imagined geography? 37 00:04:30,100 --> 00:04:33,970 Middle East, Ottoman Empire, Muslim World or Jewish World? 38 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,410 Israel, Palestine or Arab countries, diaspora or homeland? 39 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:46,120 al-Andalus or ossified. Most of the scholarly work in this field today are already navigating in a narrow and limited scope, 40 00:04:46,750 --> 00:04:50,830 adapting into the post, partitioned, fragmented academic landscape and reality. 41 00:04:51,790 --> 00:04:57,669 Can we explore and understand the Arab Jewish intellectual world in its fullness and complexity through the existent, 42 00:04:57,670 --> 00:05:05,020 partitioned academic fields and terminology? Can we transcend the geographical, historical and disciplinary boundaries? 43 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,430 And we integrate the fragmented pieces into one? Field and one history. 44 00:05:10,660 --> 00:05:11,889 In my short talk today, 45 00:05:11,890 --> 00:05:18,610 I won't be able to address all these important questions that were investigated in several important scholarly work in the past decades. 46 00:05:19,450 --> 00:05:26,230 And I should say one break in walks and Arab-Jewish cultural history through the lens of the partition past and present, 47 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,010 including her more recent work on the invention of the Judaic Arabic. 48 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:35,200 Without doubt the most important and influential ones, and were followed by others. 49 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,280 Important works by lookalike Ellenberg and Gil Angela. 50 00:05:40,630 --> 00:05:49,630 I want to suggest a different entrance to these questions through the representation and visions of al-Andalus around the turn of the 20th century, 51 00:05:50,230 --> 00:05:55,389 exploring its crucial role in the creation of modern Jewish studies and in the separation 52 00:05:55,390 --> 00:05:59,650 of Arabic and Hebrew Muslims in Jewish intellectual traditions and histories. 53 00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:05,410 Shifting the focus to the prior partition era or more precisely to them, 54 00:06:06,100 --> 00:06:13,900 early stages of the partitioning process enable us not only to trace back the cultural and political options that were materialised, 55 00:06:14,410 --> 00:06:20,050 but also reveal options that emerged at the time but were negated, marginalised and forgotten. 56 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:28,150 My research in the last decade focussed on Arab Jewish SAFA, the intellectual network during the formative. 57 00:06:28,690 --> 00:06:36,820 During this formative period, the turn of the 20th century by exploring the cultural visions and activities of this network. 58 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,889 I seek not only to reveal marginalised voices, but also to expose exposed, 59 00:06:41,890 --> 00:06:50,590 unexplored political options that aim to transform and reshape social and cultural realities at a formative moment in the history of Israeli, 60 00:06:50,590 --> 00:06:58,300 Palestinian, Israeli Palestinian conflict. This is also a opportunity to challenge the institutionalised nationalist geographies, 61 00:06:58,930 --> 00:07:04,780 as well as the disciplinary and political divisions that dominate our reading of the past and present. 62 00:07:05,590 --> 00:07:11,740 From early stages of my work, I have identified the importance of al-Andalus offered in their intellectual work, 63 00:07:12,130 --> 00:07:14,500 as well as their political and cultural vision. 64 00:07:15,100 --> 00:07:22,690 It echoes implicitly and explicitly through their throughout their writings and activities in different ways and forms. 65 00:07:23,170 --> 00:07:31,780 It is important to clarify here that I investigate al-Andalus not simply as a medieval object or phenomena, 66 00:07:31,930 --> 00:07:34,960 but rather as an active and powerful modern representation. 67 00:07:35,410 --> 00:07:43,390 Instead of imagining the explore and exploring the Andalusian past and heritage as being entire fixed in one history or experience. 68 00:07:43,780 --> 00:07:49,059 I am looking at the different and often contested visions of al-Andalus offered in the 69 00:07:49,060 --> 00:07:53,290 modern Jewish discourse in general and in the Arab Jewish discourse in particular. 70 00:07:54,370 --> 00:08:02,589 Therefore, I am investigating al-Andalus as a travelling concept, focusing on its transformation in translations through a movement of languages, 71 00:08:02,590 --> 00:08:07,060 texts, poetic models and philosophy, philosophical ideas between time and space. 72 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:21,700 Yeah. Okay. Now, I would like to introduce the network in more details and situate them in a wider social and cultural context. 73 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:32,319 The member of the Sephardi network includes Yosef Mucarsel-powell, Abdallah, Yousef, Shlomi, Huda, Davida Lin, a real mention Shimon Majali. 74 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:37,630 Similar rule is still Azali Moyal end of Ramadan Malia to name only few. 75 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:43,300 Most of them were born in Palestine in the second turn of the 19th century in the local Sephardi community. 76 00:08:43,900 --> 00:08:49,180 The traumatic transformation that occurred in the second half of the 20th of the 19th century in 77 00:08:49,180 --> 00:08:55,390 the Ottoman Empire in Palestine particular had a formative role in their intellectual development. 78 00:08:57,730 --> 00:09:05,800 They were part of a growing circles of local scholars who were engaged in a variety of intellectual activities ethnographic research, translation, 79 00:09:06,130 --> 00:09:08,050 literary interpretation, journalism, 80 00:09:08,050 --> 00:09:17,080 philology and induction in their in these scholarly circles were active Muslims and Christians from the local Arab Palestinians. 81 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,380 Community figures like Dr. Tawfik, Anon, Stefan, 82 00:09:20,650 --> 00:09:28,870 Stephan and Halil to tackle this emerging local Palestinian scholarly community was shaped in the mixture of imperial, 83 00:09:28,870 --> 00:09:33,340 religious and national discourses that operated together in the public spheres. 84 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:38,260 This notion of fluidity and mobility between different national collective collective 85 00:09:38,260 --> 00:09:44,260 affiliations shaped then influenced the political and cultural visions of these intellectuals. 86 00:09:46,780 --> 00:09:54,549 During this period. Towards the end of the Ottoman era, some of the Sephardic intellectuals were members of both Hebrew Renaissance and Movement, 87 00:09:54,550 --> 00:10:03,820 the Scala and the Nahda, the Arab Renaissance movement at the time when the two were not yet seen to be contradictory. 88 00:10:04,510 --> 00:10:09,760 The involvement of these intellectuals in both Hebrew and Arabic revival movement helped them to articulate a different 89 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:16,420 approach towards revival of Hebrew language and culture from that of the mainstream ashkenazim as Quilliam in Palestine. 90 00:10:17,500 --> 00:10:24,250 In this context, they view the period as Andalusian moment, a moment of reunion of Jews and Muslims, 91 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:32,350 Arabs and Hebrews in a shared homeland Palestine like it was in al-Andalus before the expulsion of Jews and Muslims from the land. 92 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:38,710 Like insofar that this moment of opportunity for establishing a joint Hebrew and Arabic culture. 93 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,780 Moment of new encounters and promises of shared future. 94 00:10:43,780 --> 00:10:49,809 Best of revival of the great Jew, the Arabic Andalusian heritage of operating. 95 00:10:49,810 --> 00:10:55,180 In this notion of Andalusian moment, we can identify two main strains in their intellectual activities. 96 00:10:55,990 --> 00:11:00,549 The first strain focussed mainly on the representation interpretation of the Andalusian 97 00:11:00,550 --> 00:11:05,260 narratives in the modern Jewish discourse vis a vis Hebrew and Jewish modernity, 98 00:11:05,260 --> 00:11:09,000 modernisation and the creation of Jewish national community in Palestine. 99 00:11:09,010 --> 00:11:11,650 I don't I wouldn't have enough time to get into it, 100 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:22,059 but the that was really important symbol since I think the early enlightenment cycle Jewish from Mendelssohn on onward and to of course the 101 00:11:22,060 --> 00:11:33,730 Zionist movement and Bialik and others that went back to Shiraz Fradkin to the poetry of Spain as there is a national and Western image. 102 00:11:33,730 --> 00:11:41,080 And to that too, I will talk a little bit about this dispute with them, but this is more focus in my Ph.D. 103 00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:49,659 The second trend focussed on the recreation and creating of a new Hebrew Arabic literature literary tradition through translations, 104 00:11:49,660 --> 00:11:54,580 literature and literary research based on Arabic poetic models and traditions. 105 00:11:55,660 --> 00:11:57,950 The question of the representation of the Fatherland. 106 00:11:57,950 --> 00:12:03,790 Those was in the centre of the dialogue with European Jewish scholars and political activists of the time. 107 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:08,440 Some of them were also engaged in fierce disputes with leading European Jewish 108 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,670 scholars and Zionist leaders over the modernisation process of Hebrew and Arabic, 109 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:19,000 of Hebrew and Jewish culture, and its effect on the Jewish political and social life in Palestine, 110 00:12:19,660 --> 00:12:24,309 critical of the tendency of the Jewish scholars in Europe and later also in Palestine, 111 00:12:24,310 --> 00:12:31,390 to define the Jewish and Hebrew modernisation as a process of westernisation or end your presentation. 112 00:12:31,690 --> 00:12:40,240 They emphasise the importance of returning to the Andalusian Judeo Muslim tradition into the Arab culture that had developed over the centuries. 113 00:12:41,830 --> 00:12:49,239 In that sense, they were also influenced by the return to Andalusia in the Arab Kannada movement as a model of glorious our past. 114 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:54,430 To be revived in the heart of these disputes, we can identified one common issue, 115 00:12:55,180 --> 00:13:03,850 which they share a clear and consistence view about the separation between Hebrew and Arabic languages and literary traditions. 116 00:13:04,450 --> 00:13:10,870 They have all identified quite early the process of isolating the research of one Andalusian, Jewish and Hebrew little. 117 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,980 From its Arabic context, 118 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:21,799 this trend was manifested both explicitly and implicitly in some of the research work of the physics of the student on their sense of Judaism. 119 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:29,480 In Judaism circles, leading Jewish scholars in this circles emphasises emphasise the Western character 120 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,800 of Judaism while ignoring or playing down its is to inculcate a mystics, 121 00:13:34,190 --> 00:13:40,070 including the prominent role of Arabic language and culture in the Jewish Andalucian heritage. 122 00:13:40,910 --> 00:13:46,580 Critical of this tendency, shall Abdallah Joseph, the violin of Shalom Yehuda, 123 00:13:46,850 --> 00:13:51,110 emphasise the importance of the knowledge of Arabic language and the poetic style 124 00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:54,950 in their development of their research of SHU ratified the poetry of Spain, 125 00:13:55,460 --> 00:13:56,660 the Hebrew Poetry of Spain. 126 00:13:57,380 --> 00:14:05,780 They also pointed out the importance of the comparative approach that binds together the research of Arabic and Hebrew poetry of Andalusia. 127 00:14:07,790 --> 00:14:11,689 In these disputes, Avraham Shalom Yehuda had a leading role, 128 00:14:11,690 --> 00:14:18,500 mainly due to his unique intellectual biography and prominent position vis a vis the European Jewish scholars. 129 00:14:19,070 --> 00:14:28,879 Yehuda was a prolific researcher, translator and manuscript collectors whose intellectual activity spread over many geographical areas, 130 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,170 including Jerusalem, Frankford, Heidelberg, Berlin, London, New York and Madrid. 131 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:40,100 In intellectual disciplines. Philology Jewish History. A winter studies biblical criticism and Islamic studies. 132 00:14:40,670 --> 00:14:49,970 His work was influenced by the main modern Jewish intellectual trends that scholar the visions of the You Do Come circles and Hebrew revivalism. 133 00:14:50,300 --> 00:14:58,700 Yet at the same time, he was not less inspired by the Arab Ennahda movement, the Ottoman political and cultural reformation, 134 00:14:58,700 --> 00:15:04,429 the Tanzim, and in the Sephardic intellectual circles of his time as a researcher, 135 00:15:04,430 --> 00:15:12,799 he was trained in the German Orientalist system is which is research focussed on the intertwined Judeo Muslim world and on the Hebrew, 136 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:21,260 Arabic, linguistic and cultural connections. Yoder was a unique figure in the German or interlaced circles of his time. 137 00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:27,920 A Palestinian native with the Baghdadi background and with a strong Jerusalemite and Sephardic affiliation, 138 00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:33,500 Yehuda was critical of the European Jewish Orientalist approach towards Jewish 139 00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:37,340 cultural and in general and towards the Andalusian culture in particular. 140 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:44,779 His main criticism was pointed towards the Jewish scholars who were engaged in republishing scholarly editions of Hebrew, 141 00:15:44,780 --> 00:15:51,620 Andalusian poets, as well as encouraging research and study a of the field. 142 00:15:52,130 --> 00:15:58,340 Yoder criticised the lack of relation in affiliation to Arabic language and culture in their research, 143 00:15:58,580 --> 00:16:01,909 which was for him not just a subject for historical study, 144 00:16:01,910 --> 00:16:07,520 but also integral part of contemporary Jewish existence and of the future of the Jewish people in Palestine. 145 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:15,259 For him, the the dispute on al-Andalus how you need to re return to the Andalusian heritage. 146 00:16:15,260 --> 00:16:19,249 The Jewish is connected to the Arab question Palestine very closely. 147 00:16:19,250 --> 00:16:23,659 I won't get into it here, but I wrote about it in different places. 148 00:16:23,660 --> 00:16:26,420 And in one of his crucial articles, 149 00:16:26,420 --> 00:16:35,870 Yehuda point points out the lack of knowledge of Arabic within the Jewish researchers, and I quote Our will theory. 150 00:16:35,870 --> 00:16:42,230 He means the European Jewish scholars are biased against our big literature literary heritage from the Middle Ages. 151 00:16:42,500 --> 00:16:51,560 No one will dare to write about Philo without knowing Greek or about Spinoza, without Latin or about Mendelssohn, without a without the German. 152 00:16:51,890 --> 00:16:57,560 But except for a select few, nearly all writes about our medieval literature. 153 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:05,989 Literature takes no interest in studying the language that gave them most of their methods and ideas, even with regard to their Arabic books, 154 00:17:05,990 --> 00:17:09,530 most of them satisfied with understanding them using the Hebrew translations, 155 00:17:09,950 --> 00:17:15,980 which in themselves are influenced by the Arabic language and cannot be fully comprehended without the knowledge of Arabic. 156 00:17:17,810 --> 00:17:24,020 Contrary to dispatch, Yehuda emphasised the deep interconnection between the Jewish and Arabic traditions. 157 00:17:24,410 --> 00:17:32,660 Reconnecting Judaism to the East and to the Judeo Muslim tradition was for him, the crucial step in modernisation of Jewish culture. 158 00:17:33,380 --> 00:17:38,390 Yehuda began to articulate this political and cultural vision in his earliest days in Europe, 159 00:17:38,930 --> 00:17:45,049 as he wrote to his cousin the violin in a letter in 1889 1899. 160 00:17:45,050 --> 00:17:51,020 Sorry, but in the land of Israel it is possible then they, the European Jews, 161 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:58,250 will return to their Eastern ism in the East and open their hearts to Eastern and Arabic literatures. 162 00:17:58,550 --> 00:18:05,850 And by doing so, they will shed light on the life of our people of the past before they changed their nature. 163 00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:10,250 Nature from the east and becoming too close to foreign people. 164 00:18:10,970 --> 00:18:14,630 A line alien to their spirit. 165 00:18:14,930 --> 00:18:23,060 But the people of the East left us many books and scriptures that may give us an idea of their way of life, 166 00:18:23,540 --> 00:18:29,870 their intellectual properties, and the vast Arabic literature would provide us with sufficient material for our needs. 167 00:18:31,820 --> 00:18:35,190 Similar views and criticism we can find in the field disputes that. 168 00:18:35,230 --> 00:18:38,850 Another member of the network, Soul Abdullah Baghdadi, 169 00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:46,880 a Baghdadi merchant and scholar that raised a resided in Hong Kong head with the science of Judaism scholars in Europe. 170 00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:53,810 Only Yosef spent most of his adult life in the Baghdadi diaspora in Southeast Asia. 171 00:18:54,110 --> 00:19:01,190 He settled with his family in the British colony of Hong Kong, where he established a brokerage house at the Stock Exchange. 172 00:19:01,670 --> 00:19:05,930 Alongside his business training, Youssef was autodidact, autodidact, 173 00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:12,830 well studied Hebrew and Arabic literature in particular, read in particular the Jewish works of al-Andalus. 174 00:19:13,550 --> 00:19:19,490 He corresponded with Jewish intellectuals in Europe and in Arab lands within the Baghdadi diaspora. 175 00:19:19,490 --> 00:19:25,280 Joseph was active in the Arabic newspaper in Hebrew letters, Arabic in Hebrew letters, 176 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,120 the Jew to Arabic epitaph in Majid Macharia publish in Calcutta. 177 00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:40,490 Those intellectual circles comprise of Jews from Baghdad, the diaspora in Southeast Asia, Baghdad, Aleppo and Basra and in Jerusalem in other places. 178 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,790 And from his own congregation, 179 00:19:43,790 --> 00:19:51,210 Yusef was greatly interested in the work of the scholars circles in Europe and was a member of some of their research association, mainly them in. 180 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:58,850 He did the. It did not belong to a recognised Jewish centre and had no formal higher education or by medical training. 181 00:19:59,390 --> 00:20:02,570 He also represented different, often contradictory worlds. 182 00:20:03,230 --> 00:20:07,520 He tried to bring the Baghdadi Jewish intellectual circus closer to the world of the Scala, 183 00:20:08,060 --> 00:20:13,820 while simultaneously disputing with European scholars about the foundation of the Jewish and Sephardi heritage. 184 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,000 In one of his letters, the violin. 185 00:20:17,330 --> 00:20:30,400 He criticised the European scholar's approach to the Arab Jewish poetry of al-Andalus, and I quote, I have done all I can to enlighten our colleagues, 186 00:20:30,410 --> 00:20:35,780 wise men of our skin as to the fact that the Arab Jewish poetry is not like European poetry, 187 00:20:36,110 --> 00:20:41,960 what a Biafran Berliner and a BLR country have generally conceded the point I have written to them. 188 00:20:42,260 --> 00:20:46,940 They remain incapable of removing their European spectacles from their eyes. 189 00:20:48,140 --> 00:20:53,660 In another occasion evoked in different article By my word, 190 00:20:53,660 --> 00:21:00,800 this is an attempt by Westerners to interpret and interpret the words of an Eastern poet using the Western aesthetic. 191 00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:06,529 And from reading it, you are given to understanding the taboo you deliver. 192 00:21:06,530 --> 00:21:11,720 The Safadi actually spoke with Ashkenazi accent and used European images and phrases. 193 00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:19,249 And so what about as if for me it was a great discovery and there's less and there's no a lot of writing about it, 194 00:21:19,250 --> 00:21:24,860 but it was had a long, long disputes with it and think in many ways. 195 00:21:25,670 --> 00:21:32,600 Before we as, let's say the intel, we had the great critique of Europe position of Jewish culture and Arab culture. 196 00:21:33,770 --> 00:21:39,739 He was often referred as the hammer Baghdadi, the Baghdadi scholar, despite having left Baghdadi at the young age, 197 00:21:39,740 --> 00:21:44,330 spending most of his life as trader and then British subject in the British colonies, 198 00:21:45,410 --> 00:21:48,590 the intellectual world of the 11 season was also rich and varied. 199 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:57,260 Benson was born in Jerusalem in 1880 and was involved in the Sephardic Kabbalistic circles of the of the Bechtel Seminary, 200 00:21:57,710 --> 00:21:59,150 of which his father was a member. 201 00:21:59,540 --> 00:22:07,910 He later travelled to Germany, where he studied in four universities and completed his doctoral thesis in University of Bern, Switzerland. 202 00:22:08,210 --> 00:22:11,510 Benson was also involved in the Hebrew revival movement in Palestine. 203 00:22:12,050 --> 00:22:20,630 His academic activity in Europe and the Zionist activism connected him with the German, Orientalist and Zionist leaders. 204 00:22:20,990 --> 00:22:27,200 He was also influenced by the pan-Asian thinkers and was in touch with the Indian put to go. 205 00:22:28,670 --> 00:22:33,049 Thus, multiple association influence and influences in the world of Yehuda, 206 00:22:33,050 --> 00:22:36,740 Yosef and Keynesian, as well as their movement between different geographical, 207 00:22:36,740 --> 00:22:44,210 disciplinary and political locations, represent also the complex and dynamic intellectual horizons of other members of the network. 208 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:54,350 Other fierce disputing in other soil and other fields dispute regarding the separation between Hebrew and Arabic developed in Palestine. 209 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,970 In the early stages of the Zionist settlement in the beginning of the 20th century, 210 00:22:59,780 --> 00:23:05,509 Sephardic intellectuals identified the similar approach of negating Arabic language and 211 00:23:05,510 --> 00:23:10,790 history in the separate separatist and arrogant attitudes of the European Jewish settlers. 212 00:23:10,850 --> 00:23:17,240 So it's the Palestinian Arabs which had the crucial effect on the creation of the Arab-Jewish conflict in Palestine. 213 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,860 Native Palestinians, Jews like and similar to Leicester, Azaria, 214 00:23:21,860 --> 00:23:27,229 Mujahed and Shimon will criticise the refusal of Zionist settlers to learn Arabic and 215 00:23:27,230 --> 00:23:33,260 their dismissiveness and racism towards the local population during this dispute. 216 00:23:33,290 --> 00:23:38,449 They emphasise the Andalucian heritage as a political and cultural model that the Jew, 217 00:23:38,450 --> 00:23:43,790 the Jewish settlers needs to adopt in the process of integrating with the local Arab society. 218 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,640 It seems that their fierce and clear objection to the separation of Arabic and 219 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:54,110 Hebrew represented something bigger than a scientific or political dispute. 220 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:59,660 It affected the essence of their identity and their and social existence, 221 00:23:59,930 --> 00:24:05,690 threatening to destroy the best basis of their historical tradition intellectual world. 222 00:24:06,530 --> 00:24:13,220 They indentified the danger of the logic of partition from its early stages and tried to prevent it. 223 00:24:14,510 --> 00:24:23,150 Now I'm going to the second strand. The second major intellectual project that this is safeguarding the network 224 00:24:23,390 --> 00:24:28,910 involved in was manifested in their translation works during the late Ottoman era. 225 00:24:28,940 --> 00:24:32,360 They were active members in both Hebrew and Arabic throughout the movement. 226 00:24:32,810 --> 00:24:40,640 While the increasing hostility between Jews and Arabs opened a linguistic rupture between Hebrew and Arabic, their insistence on holding the both, 227 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:50,690 holding on to both languages positioned themselves in the borderlands between them, and using translation as a political and cultural tool. 228 00:24:51,230 --> 00:24:56,870 They published hundreds of essays, political commentaries, translations, short stories and poems, 229 00:24:56,870 --> 00:25:03,140 mostly in local Hebrew and Arabic newspapers and journals marking the first modern phenomena 230 00:25:03,170 --> 00:25:09,020 of Arabic Hebrew literary bilingualism since the great Arab-Jewish poets of al-Andalus. 231 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:18,320 The prominent role of translation in their intellectual work was largely a result of direct and indirect affiliation with a seemingly, 232 00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:24,320 seemingly lost world. Islamic al-Andalus was the parade of the 10 to 12 centuries. 233 00:25:25,310 --> 00:25:28,639 This was the famous golden age of Jewish intellectual life. 234 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:36,160 The age of great, great thinkers and and poets such as Maimonides, Moses, Ebenezer. 235 00:25:36,170 --> 00:25:38,510 I knew the Olivia who were intimately, 236 00:25:38,690 --> 00:25:45,710 intimately linked to the Arabic poetry and Islamic philosophy while advancing the study of Jewish law and Hebrew philology and poetry. 237 00:25:46,190 --> 00:25:48,590 In light of this intertwined cultural heritage, 238 00:25:49,010 --> 00:25:55,549 the Arab Jewish intellectuals tried to revive this medieval vision as a social and political platform for modern Jewish, 239 00:25:55,550 --> 00:26:01,400 Arab shared life in Palestine. By adapting this cultural model to the context of Palestine. 240 00:26:01,790 --> 00:26:11,840 This work promoted this network promoted translation from Arabic as a fundamental instrument in the Hebrew National and Cultural Revival. 241 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:24,500 Out of their large corpus of translation, I want to present to you in briefly a full of their major translation project with them and want 242 00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:33,740 to start working on them next year in more details and a translation from Arabic to Hebrew. 243 00:26:33,950 --> 00:26:36,560 The first one is The Elderly Love Children of Arabia, 244 00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:44,300 a collection of biblical tales from the Arab Palestinian oral tradition by Yosef Mucus, published in 1927. 245 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:53,000 Michel of Tales of the Arabs, a comprehensive collection of Arabic proverb by its characters new media Huda published in 1932. 246 00:26:53,420 --> 00:27:03,140 Carlo Dimona a Cleveland Dimona, a famous collection of animal fables that were translated from Sanskrit to Persian, Arabic into Hebrew by Iman Malek, 247 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:12,380 published in 1927, in middle of summer in a man who bananas king of a man and his sons section from the Thousand and one nights. 248 00:27:13,550 --> 00:27:17,090 That was translated translated by the video in 1930. 249 00:27:19,610 --> 00:27:24,890 You have some of these covers of these books here. Yeah. 250 00:27:25,270 --> 00:27:30,309 Calling them nice, beautiful Arabic is the illusion of Arabic and Hebrew here. 251 00:27:30,310 --> 00:27:33,900 It's the mixture of that. They breed of it. It's on the cover. 252 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:42,220 These translations stand out because they do not belong to a uniform, religious, national, a geographical, linguistic tradition. 253 00:27:42,220 --> 00:27:49,360 There's no one source. There's no original source to this this text, these cross languages, time, 254 00:27:49,810 --> 00:27:55,090 space and culture providing unique case study of translation without original written sources in 255 00:27:55,090 --> 00:28:00,639 Yehuda and mucous example is even stronger because you don't have any source written source. 256 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,710 It's based on oral traditions. 257 00:28:03,370 --> 00:28:12,120 So you have a unique case study of transition with that original in the time of national time with all, everyone is obsessed by originals. 258 00:28:12,310 --> 00:28:17,920 Of course the biblical original into it they combine oral and written tradition. 259 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,670 This blurring the distinction between author and translators, original and copy. 260 00:28:22,180 --> 00:28:27,190 They present a unique linguistic mix of Hebrew and Arabic, which challenge the national distinction, 261 00:28:27,190 --> 00:28:34,870 offering exceptional evidence of modern Hebrew, Arabic, hybridity, all these texts of combining Arabic into Hebrew and vice versa. 262 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,530 These translations are not merely literary exercises. 263 00:28:38,860 --> 00:28:45,550 They embody inattentive political possibility of shared Hebrew Arabic culture against the mainstream Zionist separatist approach. 264 00:28:46,540 --> 00:28:51,820 My research of this translation has three axes text textual analysis focusing on linguistic, 265 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:58,759 structural and automatic aspects that reflect the turbulent Palestinian politics of 1920 1930. 266 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,940 You have to think about the times that this transition was published before 1929. 267 00:29:03,940 --> 00:29:08,900 But in all the old the 1920s are times of violent and yeah. 268 00:29:09,670 --> 00:29:21,159 And clashes between Jews and Arabs in the land and their public reception compared to other literary projects in Hebrew and Arabic circles. 269 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:28,239 In the broader political context and implications, the translation strategy, selection of text and translator, 270 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:36,730 culture and translators, cultural and political motivation as stated in the processes, interviews and private correspondence. 271 00:29:38,530 --> 00:29:44,049 Conclusion How can we re-engage with the work of those Arab-Jewish thinkers and 272 00:29:44,050 --> 00:29:47,830 writers without reducing their literary and cultural vision to our reality? 273 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:54,700 How the different images of al-Andalus can contribute to our understanding of our Jewish cultural history and present. 274 00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:00,189 We engaging with this Andalusian vision of this Arab-Jewish network enable us much more 275 00:30:00,190 --> 00:30:05,320 than simply revealing missing voices or missing figures in the Jewish is still goofy. 276 00:30:05,620 --> 00:30:13,120 It offered us an opportunity to develop new perspectives and theoretical frameworks and to rearrange the research fields itself. 277 00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:18,459 In that way, it challenges and matters as some of the basic assumptions, 278 00:30:18,460 --> 00:30:25,220 categorisations and terminology that organise the institutionalised knowledge on Jewish studies in Hebrew Arabic literatures. 279 00:30:26,110 --> 00:30:34,540 It also can help us reveal inconsistencies and contradiction and contradictions in the official and knowledge production, 280 00:30:34,540 --> 00:30:37,510 as well as the its ideological and political mechanisms. 281 00:30:38,140 --> 00:30:47,560 It also provides new ways of exploring historical events for multiple approaches and prisms during multiple geographies and localities, 282 00:30:48,580 --> 00:30:51,940 most specifically in the context of the Arab Jewish literature, 283 00:30:51,940 --> 00:30:57,610 it enables us to transcend the existing disciplinary division that limits and bizarreness 284 00:30:57,910 --> 00:31:02,710 to a movement in the frame that is framed within the modern Jewish National Project, 285 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:09,790 informed by Westernisation new appreciation instead plasticity within a landscape of multiple locations, 286 00:31:09,790 --> 00:31:18,250 realities and collectives and collectivity, embodying broad and complex spiritual, cultural and historical context. 287 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,390 The members of this network. This is a very important point. 288 00:31:22,780 --> 00:31:29,590 The member of this network should not sin as barriers or preservers of traditions facing collapse and extinction. 289 00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:37,080 And this is something that some of these people would wear in Delta quite shortly. 290 00:31:37,210 --> 00:31:41,770 But there always seems to be as there's a big giant the trying to preserve oral 291 00:31:41,770 --> 00:31:46,299 tradition I think it's it's it's the wrong approach to them they should be 292 00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:51,070 instead be viewed as an active participants in renewing and reforming and 293 00:31:51,070 --> 00:31:57,190 reformulating these traditions as both scholars and creators in their visions. 294 00:31:57,190 --> 00:32:00,760 They lived in Andalusian moment. That was also their moment. 295 00:32:01,090 --> 00:32:07,660 It's a Farideh moment in which their hurt and in which the heads and successor of the great Andalusian poets, 296 00:32:07,930 --> 00:32:12,220 philosophers and translators will re-establish the Jew the Arabic tradition. 297 00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:16,900 We integrate the fragmented history of the Arab Jewish scholarly world. 298 00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:22,780 In this process, Andalusians and the Arad served as a political and cultural. 299 00:32:22,870 --> 00:32:27,640 Model and inspiration for should Arab and Jewish future in Palestine. 300 00:32:28,210 --> 00:32:37,450 In many ways, this moment was taken from them by the national movement that was divided along the single language line in national canons. 301 00:32:37,990 --> 00:32:41,170 That was contradictory, contrary to the spirit of alarm. 302 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,870 We should read this Andalusian moment as part of a larger cultural impact. 303 00:32:48,310 --> 00:32:49,600 So as part of culture, 304 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:57,610 a large cultural and political phenomena in which the image and the representation of al-Andalus offered not only as a place appeared, 305 00:32:57,610 --> 00:33:03,220 but mainly as a social and cultural model is used as allegory or symbol in the formation of contact. 306 00:33:03,370 --> 00:33:09,460 Contested political and cultural vision for Palestine-Israel, not only in the Arab-Jewish choir and the Jewish and the Hebrew it. 307 00:33:09,470 --> 00:33:17,230 Same with Palestinian and and how they thought in general throughout the last century. 308 00:33:17,650 --> 00:33:25,900 al-Andalus serves as a combat concept where where by terms are used to advance competing religious and political programs 309 00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:33,610 which are separated from their historical referents and lack any fixed or ethical meanings each represent different. 310 00:33:33,610 --> 00:33:41,500 al-Andalus represent different and sometimes contradictory visions, memories and legacies, homeland and exile, 311 00:33:41,710 --> 00:33:55,360 beginning and in end shed intertwined cultural or into religious life, while at the same time in explosion, expulsions and religious conflicts. 312 00:33:55,750 --> 00:33:59,740 Time of glory and achievement. And time of catastrophe and tragedies. 313 00:34:00,730 --> 00:34:05,590 The Allegory of Palestine in al-Andalus that was a crucial factor in the Arab-Jewish intellectual 314 00:34:05,590 --> 00:34:12,040 work during the early 20th century was also prominent in more recent Palestinian writings, 315 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:20,500 such as, let's say, AIDS and Muhammad the Jewish. In their writings, al-Andalus has evolved into an image of Lost Garden, 316 00:34:20,860 --> 00:34:28,930 which symbolised an idealised society of intellectual achievement and cultural hybridity, as well as an historical moment of loss and exile. 317 00:34:29,740 --> 00:34:35,379 I would like to finish with the words of Darwish and to read a segment from his 318 00:34:35,380 --> 00:34:42,640 poem 11 Stars of Andalusia that he wrote in 1992 after his first visit to Granada, 319 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:52,810 Spain, around the commemoration of 500 years of the Castilian Christian conquest and the ending of the Islamic rule in the Iberian Peninsula. 320 00:34:53,950 --> 00:35:01,209 In this poem, the story of the conquest of Granada and the expulsion of the Muslims from al-Andalus serves as an allegory 321 00:35:01,210 --> 00:35:06,880 to the story of the Nakba and the conquest of Palestine and the displacement of the Palestinians. 322 00:35:08,350 --> 00:35:12,380 Who wants to. To read? Yeah. 323 00:35:12,820 --> 00:35:16,360 Huh? Avi, can I ask you. 324 00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:22,380 And we'll finish with it. Can you say I was on. 325 00:35:22,450 --> 00:35:31,079 I was on TV all this time. On our last leave. 326 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:43,410 Neve Eve on Marla. The title is on our last evening on this land on our last evening on this land we chop our days from our young trees. 327 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:49,200 Car thieves will take with us and the reefs we will leave behind. 328 00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:55,620 On the last evening, we bid nothing farewell nor find the time to end. 329 00:35:56,700 --> 00:36:03,450 Everything remains as it is. It is the place that changes our dreams and its visitors. 330 00:36:04,170 --> 00:36:11,520 Suddenly we are incapable of army. This land will now post atoms of dust here. 331 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:20,250 On our last evening we look closely at the mountain besieging the clouds, the conquest, an account of conquest, 332 00:36:20,670 --> 00:36:30,990 and an all time handing this new time the keys to our doors and conclusion so into our houses, 333 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:48,600 conquerors and drink the wine of militarists move show us Russia once more shot in Russia We are the night at midnight. 334 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:56,159 And so horsemen will bring dark will bring dawn from the sanctuary of the last call to 335 00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:07,229 prayer Artie's green and halt Drink it Our pistachios are fridge Eat them the bits of green 336 00:37:07,230 --> 00:37:17,549 see the full on them Following this long siege Lie down on the feathers of our dreams The 337 00:37:17,550 --> 00:37:25,320 sheets are crisp perfumes so ready by the door and there are plenty of mirrors into them. 338 00:37:25,590 --> 00:37:29,460 So we may exit complex completely soon. 339 00:37:29,730 --> 00:37:37,140 We will search in the margins of our history in distant countries for what was once our history. 340 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:46,890 And in the end we will ask ourselves, Was Andalusia here or there on the land or in the poem? 341 00:37:48,990 --> 00:37:55,700 Thank you. Maybe that's okay. 342 00:37:56,500 --> 00:38:03,120 Thank you. You're thinking. Common questions. 343 00:38:03,820 --> 00:38:22,330 Yeah. And it was an understanding that, you know, it's a mixture of a Spanish and a Hebrew and just Spanish, pure heritage. 344 00:38:23,870 --> 00:38:31,160 Okay. It's a good question, because most of the time, the Andalusian time was a Jew Arabic mostly. 345 00:38:31,730 --> 00:38:36,139 But with the Christian conquest into other parts of Spain. 346 00:38:36,140 --> 00:38:45,110 So the Jews became more and more under Christian and Castilian rule, and they started to adopt the Spanish. 347 00:38:45,110 --> 00:38:51,440 But this, the Judas Spanish became a Jewish language as a collective only after the expulsion. 348 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,400 Only in the in the diaspora. In the Ottoman Empire. 349 00:38:56,420 --> 00:39:04,069 And that's the time. When did you then a Spanish became a language of culture in itself for poetry, 350 00:39:04,070 --> 00:39:09,950 for for stories, for correspondents, correspondence for a biblical writings for. 351 00:39:10,850 --> 00:39:15,590 But before that, there are, of course, was the many language Arabic in Hebrew letters. 352 00:39:16,190 --> 00:39:21,020 So in that sense, when we're talking about Ladino, we're talking already about a different time of Andalusia. 353 00:39:21,620 --> 00:39:26,110 Andalusia, outside of of of the real land. 354 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,900 In that sense, it's a memory. So there's a great story. 355 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:41,120 In the end of the 19th century, a lot of Spanish historians and intellectuals were starting to be really attracted to Jews, the Jewish past of Spain. 356 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,439 And they went to their to look for to the to this, you know, 357 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:57,230 to this diaspora of Jewish Sephardic Jews that still keeps the language and still keep their there, their culture, even 400 years after the expulsion. 358 00:39:57,590 --> 00:40:00,590 And we don't any connection. And he went one of them went to Belgrade. 359 00:40:00,590 --> 00:40:10,760 In the end, he met a lady and he spoke Spanish and she said oh to a has been a look he speaks Judaism all he speaks Jewish must Judaism it's a Jewish. 360 00:40:11,390 --> 00:40:16,940 She didn't even know that Spanish Jew. Their Spanish is connected to Spain to a land that is outside for there. 361 00:40:16,940 --> 00:40:23,450 It's Judaism, it's a it's a Jewish language. So the connection between Jewish, Ladino, the Jew, Judith, Spanish, 362 00:40:23,450 --> 00:40:28,969 dismal to Spain is interesting in that sense, but it's the beginning of it as a cultural phenomenon. 363 00:40:28,970 --> 00:40:35,540 It's only after the expulsion. So it was just one of these before now it was either Arabic. 364 00:40:35,690 --> 00:40:40,520 Arabic was very strongly even after. Yeah, even in Toledo he would live. 365 00:40:40,730 --> 00:40:46,760 This was under Christian rule in the Arabic was and then was a sea Venezia was 366 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:52,850 was expelled from Granada to two led the two and he always thought of himself. 367 00:40:53,350 --> 00:40:59,719 Arabic was the cultural language, you know, after the expulsion, of course, until today, 368 00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:08,299 it's still Ladino and elements of Ladino, not without the Hebrew, you know, the sandwich, the Arabic. 369 00:41:08,300 --> 00:41:15,110 It's it's Arabic with Hebrew characters. So Ladino it's Spanish in the old form of it, in the medieval form. 370 00:41:15,110 --> 00:41:19,070 It's the same with English and German. It's the same. 371 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:25,520 It's, it's kept the old version. Of course it depends where you are speaking Ladino, if you're speaking Ladino in the Ottoman Empire. 372 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:34,380 So probably Arab words would get into it. The Ottoman Turkish, you have, of course, words that are always coming in and entering into their language. 373 00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:52,550 Anyway, my second question was that is there any significance to the fact that a love of Arab and um and in in the Hebrew and 374 00:41:52,800 --> 00:42:01,400 the significance in that similarity with areas with that would ninth and then I don't know maybe can help me with that. 375 00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:10,210 And but the effort of that of it's the of course the Hebrew and Arab and one of the who that what I'm 376 00:42:10,220 --> 00:42:20,650 saying I mean who the books in Hebrew it's evident that we have a and and a both mean it evening. 377 00:42:21,380 --> 00:42:32,020 No no ever ever. It's crossing the other side of the lake even to pass novel in Hebrew and. 378 00:42:36,290 --> 00:42:46,250 I'd like to begin with a comment on the process, how you began, how your I mean, was surprised to agree. 379 00:42:47,150 --> 00:42:53,580 And I have a cousin in Baghdad was called Fouad Hammam when he went to his friend. 380 00:42:53,640 --> 00:43:09,230 They changed his name for him to say, you're not handsome, you're not your goodness is being the picture now fired is out. 381 00:43:09,230 --> 00:43:15,350 Yeah. So and now he's he's done so he became hamama. 382 00:43:15,350 --> 00:43:18,590 He came out. What became her. Yeah. Yeah. 383 00:43:18,810 --> 00:43:32,640 And I don't know why they chose that sort of you to prove something in the, in the broader context, the history of Israel, 384 00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:47,900 Zionism and Israel is a constant move to turn their back on the eastern roots and Eastern legacies and to turn Israel into a Western country. 385 00:43:49,970 --> 00:43:59,210 And you describe, very interestingly, the perspective of these Mizrahi intellectuals, 386 00:43:59,780 --> 00:44:05,959 how they dealt with these issues and the resentment a fifth of the Jews in 387 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:11,420 Palestine for refusing to learn Hebrew and refusing to engage with this culture. 388 00:44:12,410 --> 00:44:27,170 In your last talk here, you spoke about a different thing, which was Mizrahi Jews in Palestine, the reaction to the Balfour Declaration. 389 00:44:27,530 --> 00:44:32,330 Yes. And I found that really fascinating, that from day one, 390 00:44:32,510 --> 00:44:39,560 they opposed the Balfour Declaration because they wanted to be left alone to get on with their Arab neighbours. 391 00:44:39,860 --> 00:44:45,410 They wanted a national home. But for both peoples, yes. 392 00:44:47,540 --> 00:44:54,260 And. And I wonder whether there is any connection between these two strands of you. 393 00:44:54,270 --> 00:45:00,380 A few research? Yeah, I think it's very connected and in certain in certain points the same figures. 394 00:45:00,980 --> 00:45:05,590 And because I think with al-Andalus for them it's, 395 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:14,450 I think it's even more strongly because they call it the spreading they they supposed to be even though most of them are not the Iraqi, 396 00:45:14,450 --> 00:45:23,030 most of them the think they are not part of the Sephardi expulsion, but through halachic traditions, 397 00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:27,980 they were called Sephardim and but they were dismissed from the heritage of the middle level. 398 00:45:28,460 --> 00:45:41,240 So in many ways, they the Ashkenazi elite of their of their culture said, okay, we are their heroes of their of this medieval tradition. 399 00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:47,330 For us, it's a Hebrew tradition. It's a it's a Western tradition and it's a national tradition. 400 00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:57,470 You Televisa is a nationalist figure and Bialik would say that is the continuation of a feud every the same with Mendelssohn and in German and others. 401 00:45:57,620 --> 00:46:06,859 So they see themselves and they say there are two can they can our tradition and they are westernising it and they're distancing every aspect, 402 00:46:06,860 --> 00:46:21,110 Arabic aspect into it. And the same time, they are labelling us as Arabs, as Austrians, as not cultured, as outside of the Jewish modern culture. 403 00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:28,979 And and the intellectuals see it, and they understand from day one that this is a it's a project. 404 00:46:28,980 --> 00:46:34,980 It's a political project that we have to combat and to show that the Andalusian is a different country, 405 00:46:34,980 --> 00:46:39,560 is a different heritage, but it's not only a different heritage in the past. 406 00:46:39,860 --> 00:46:42,860 It have a different application for the present in Palestine. 407 00:46:43,340 --> 00:46:45,920 And that's going back to the question of Balfour Declaration. 408 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:55,340 For them, the Andalusian project is an Arab Jewish tradition that we need to as as as natives, 409 00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:02,509 Arab and Jewish natives in Palestine need to go together to event together in another place. 410 00:47:02,510 --> 00:47:08,420 I wrote about the who the coming in 1920, given the talk in Arabic, in in in Jerusalem. 411 00:47:09,590 --> 00:47:13,850 It was it was a it was introduced by Nashashibi. 412 00:47:13,850 --> 00:47:18,049 They're the mayor that knows him from childhood because they were born together in Jerusalem. 413 00:47:18,050 --> 00:47:23,570 They were raised together in Jerusalem and they're in Arabic. He says to the intellectual person, Let's revive together. 414 00:47:23,570 --> 00:47:32,510 al-Andalus is topic was. al-Andalus said, okay, this is the moment the Jews and the Muslims together let's revival Andalusia and modernise. 415 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:44,290 So of course these. These. Is inspired by Nadal and in that sense inspired by the pan-Asian fandom sentiment is inspired the other. 416 00:47:44,730 --> 00:47:48,030 But this is a different. Yes, this is a very different point of view. 417 00:47:48,030 --> 00:47:51,690 And it's very connected to the different point of view that they took to. 418 00:47:51,750 --> 00:47:55,110 But for declaration said, no, we don't want a Jewish national state. 419 00:47:55,110 --> 00:48:00,130 We want a binational. In many ways they wouldn't say bonjour, but we living together in that in that space. 420 00:48:01,650 --> 00:48:05,610 So can I just ask expand on two issues you already raised. 421 00:48:05,610 --> 00:48:12,600 But the first is how strong were the ties, these Jewish Arabs character? 422 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:18,350 It kind of is established when we post Indian Muslims overseas and Arabs. 423 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,890 Yes. And so just when he goes, how do they reply? 424 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:31,530 And second, do they offer a positive alternative to the national political wing of Zionism? 425 00:48:32,190 --> 00:48:37,379 What would there be the political really? Yes, I think it's a it's a very important question. 426 00:48:37,380 --> 00:48:44,310 I think it depends in what time of going back to them. If you going back before 1917, I think they had the moment, major, 427 00:48:44,310 --> 00:48:52,710 major point of view that was different from Zionism and they had a bigger connection to Ben and to their Palestinian intellectuals. 428 00:48:53,820 --> 00:48:56,790 So if you're going to Shimon, we are in a similar role in Jaffa. 429 00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:02,280 In the in 1911, they had the great connection with the Arab intellectuals of the time. 430 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:08,219 They even though the ones attacking Zionism, they tried to respond to them, said, no, 431 00:49:08,220 --> 00:49:13,920 Zionism doesn't contradict Arab nationalism and doesn't contradict Ottoman nationalism in the time. 432 00:49:14,300 --> 00:49:22,690 They they talking from a multiple loyalty perspective in that sense I think 1917 and the Balfour Declaration changing the story dramatically. 433 00:49:22,710 --> 00:49:34,500 So when you who this coming bringing his lectures is lecturing in 1921 of the biggest supporters was the affair and Mustapha what's his name there? 434 00:49:34,500 --> 00:49:45,780 The Iraqi poet. The famous Iraqi poet. And so there was a famous elected poet attending there in the car. 435 00:49:45,790 --> 00:49:50,790 And he was really blown by it in many ways and said, yes, we have to call it weakening. 436 00:49:50,790 --> 00:49:54,659 But the Palestinians intellectuals already been in a different place. 437 00:49:54,660 --> 00:49:57,930 They said, okay, he's a Zionist or not Zionist, he's the same. 438 00:49:57,930 --> 00:50:03,209 When I talked last time about Castille and Ben Kiki, they only the Balfour Declaration. 439 00:50:03,210 --> 00:50:09,360 Even if they were opposing Balfour Declaration, the Palestinians already wanted them to declare that anti-Zionist. 440 00:50:09,990 --> 00:50:14,190 So if you anti-Zionist, you are with us. If you're not and it's only so it's a different platform. 441 00:50:14,580 --> 00:50:21,360 So but for the question changed dramatically the map that I think that's the tragedy because in that sense you have to you can 442 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:28,650 you couldn't be anymore in multiple realities that you could be in the Ottoman time that one time you can say I'm a poor Arab. 443 00:50:29,370 --> 00:50:37,319 The violin went to mosques and then giving lectures in Arabic and was very supportive of of Nahda. 444 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:44,130 And the same with we of course, Yemen. We are similarly in Egypt and in the turmoil in Lebanon even more strongly, 445 00:50:44,910 --> 00:50:53,310 but is sentence would declare them such as analysts, l Jewish nationalists and Ottoman of course Ottoman patriots. 446 00:50:53,730 --> 00:50:58,860 But after 1917 this this collapse into this binary of the partition. 447 00:50:59,070 --> 00:51:04,440 Yes. That the partition the separation that have you have to decide a clear reality 448 00:51:04,650 --> 00:51:08,880 that to one of the sides then [INAUDIBLE] if any of them choose choose the. 449 00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:19,950 So I think the most the one the most radical one was Haim. But they died the sadly, in 1930 came Ben Kiki was a native from Syria to various. 450 00:51:20,460 --> 00:51:26,610 And he was, I think, the most critical and most critical of Zionism inside. 451 00:51:27,540 --> 00:51:33,239 But he had to resign from the Sephardic agency in Haifa because of his views in the twenties. 452 00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:38,100 And he died in 1932, I think in Aden. 453 00:51:38,340 --> 00:51:44,010 He was on his way to the Iraqi. That's for to raise money for the community and died on the way. 454 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:50,459 But I think he was the most critical. And of course, you always have anti-Zionist, mostly outside of Palestine, but in Palestine, 455 00:51:50,460 --> 00:51:56,060 too, in Iraq, of course, and others, there was always Jews that were anti-Zionist. 456 00:51:56,430 --> 00:52:02,850 But I'm talking about these ones that had a I think the most interesting ones are the one that were they will call themselves Zionist, 457 00:52:02,850 --> 00:52:07,469 but they saw Zionism completely different for what we understand Judaism is for them. 458 00:52:07,470 --> 00:52:15,480 Zionism was reconnecting to the east, really. We we establishing a Jewish, Hebrew, Arabic nation. 459 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:20,540 For them, Arabic is partly Arabic is a Jewish language. It's the language of my one. 460 00:52:20,590 --> 00:52:26,520 This is why I thank you. It's their language. It's sad. They are going is translating the Bible into is for them. 461 00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:33,180 Arabic is a Jewish language. It's not outside. It's not that. So we have to of course, we connected to this kind of know. 462 00:52:36,170 --> 00:52:51,980 I think in this area one bit, one should remember the Turks or the U.S. and the ultimate were very clear, very clear and finish clear. 463 00:52:52,190 --> 00:52:55,920 They said they're very good if you want to call the states. 464 00:52:56,450 --> 00:52:59,540 Yes. Much later, the mosque survived. 465 00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:08,740 Yes. And that's what drove the friction because they didn't mind genocide. 466 00:53:09,110 --> 00:53:14,860 Even Zionism was all about it. And there's a very good example. 467 00:53:14,870 --> 00:53:18,020 How does that is it without war, if at all? 468 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:25,820 Is that what they were actively. They were the Syrian the Syrian side. 469 00:53:25,970 --> 00:53:29,030 Absolutely. Yes. No, no. 470 00:53:29,030 --> 00:53:37,760 They for those who were doing a lot of them, they they were very important early Christians. 471 00:53:38,060 --> 00:53:41,600 It's really the earliest Christians still existed. 472 00:53:42,660 --> 00:53:49,970 And they did very well and developed them. And to the First World War in Russia, champion me. 473 00:53:50,420 --> 00:54:03,050 And then there was Saddam he etc. They they of course, both they and the Moslem tells you they knew where the borders. 474 00:54:03,380 --> 00:54:08,180 They knew half of the conflict. And they knew how much that how much they wanted. 475 00:54:08,210 --> 00:54:11,660 Yes. And things changed, as he said. Yes. 476 00:54:12,050 --> 00:54:13,850 They allowed for the creation. Yes. 477 00:54:13,850 --> 00:54:24,829 That totally changes everything, because the only I don't know of Jews, if I hold them back, they have these Jews down. 478 00:54:24,830 --> 00:54:37,760 Thank you for that. I know the Jews in Israel, which they were in the they that the older generation out of it before the First World War. 479 00:54:40,100 --> 00:54:43,130 They knew of it how far they brought with them. 480 00:54:43,310 --> 00:54:46,970 And therefore they controlled, as it were, the younger. 481 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:54,010 Yes. And this was very risky for a young person, I guess. 482 00:54:54,230 --> 00:54:57,980 Grew up in that in that atmosphere. 483 00:54:58,010 --> 00:55:14,100 Yes. In that area. Yes. And you know, I think I think this is an important because they had it all go on then war zones. 484 00:55:14,490 --> 00:55:19,290 Their what do they not want this. Yes. Yes. 485 00:55:19,530 --> 00:55:24,780 No, I think they want them in the middle. Imagine Zionism is a separatist movement. 486 00:55:25,510 --> 00:55:28,770 They wanted to support this. So Zionism is part of the area. 487 00:55:29,100 --> 00:55:35,930 And of course, going together with Arab nationalism and Ottoman, they the it is the Eastern Movement, 488 00:55:35,940 --> 00:55:43,050 but it doesn't for them it wasn't contradictory into to the other aspects of it was part of this. 489 00:55:43,370 --> 00:55:47,850 And I think it's interesting what you're saying about the Ottomans and al-Andalus in that sense. 490 00:55:48,180 --> 00:55:55,559 So many you have many nostalgic memories of Ottoman in a way that you haven't tragic memories of. 491 00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:59,220 And that is in both places, of course, are not completely right. It's a nostalgic. 492 00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:09,810 But the ottoman always seems to be a more and a pluralistic, more inter-religious surface, even though in reality, of course different. 493 00:56:10,050 --> 00:56:18,000 The picture is different, the same as in al-Andalus. But this image again is if you're going back to the Arab Jewish thought in that time for them, 494 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:25,650 the Ottoman times that the great time again for them for flourishing and in the end of it is the end of the Arab Jewish. 495 00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:31,680 But that's even more. Why should remember that everything changed. 496 00:56:31,980 --> 00:56:38,280 Not only buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy a short declaration, but but each sell. 497 00:56:39,240 --> 00:56:48,600 And that's important because Arabism and the South did not take the seven year vision, 498 00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:56,040 did not take any part in Turkish empire because they they were they were against terrorism because. 499 00:56:59,140 --> 00:57:07,810 And you mentioned earlier on about as you were taking over to some extent, you've mentioned European images. 500 00:57:07,810 --> 00:57:12,100 What sort of things were you thinking of having the example that you're talking about, 501 00:57:12,100 --> 00:57:17,770 what Abdallah Solon said that remember he said that they they they they they. 502 00:57:17,770 --> 00:57:22,080 Your position of Yehuda Levy? Yes, I think probably was, yes. 503 00:57:22,390 --> 00:57:26,620 So he what he saw because he is a autodidact, a scholar, 504 00:57:26,650 --> 00:57:33,340 a Iraqi in a region book that the knowing the text of the Jewish text and he knows the 505 00:57:33,340 --> 00:57:37,450 context of you that live you writing in Judea I think but the context that he was working in. 506 00:57:37,750 --> 00:57:46,389 So he can read the Arabic poets of his time if you deliver and he sees that the the scholars in Europe mainly high body 507 00:57:46,390 --> 00:57:54,490 there was one that he was particularly but not only that investigating this point without understanding the Arabic style, 508 00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:05,260 poetic style and the trying to a translated it or to interpret it or to investigate it to European framework. 509 00:58:05,770 --> 00:58:11,370 And for him, that's that's the main criticism. And so he will do it, of course, largely said. 510 00:58:11,380 --> 00:58:16,120 But if you want to try to make a you deliver as Ashkenazi is not Ashkenazi is a 511 00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:21,080 Sephardi but this is of course for him is a battle with the Ashkenazi European Jews. 512 00:58:21,340 --> 00:58:27,760 But for him, he is not the distance him you the living from his roots that are the Arab poetry. 513 00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:31,120 Of course you can understand Sephardic poetry, Jewish. 514 00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:34,149 We don't understand Arabic poetry. And today we know it. 515 00:58:34,150 --> 00:58:40,240 Even though if you're going to study today Hebrew literature in in in the Hebrew University, 516 00:58:40,630 --> 00:58:50,470 you don't need to know Arabic so you can learn you there live it without Arabic oh oh modestly in Israel or others without Arab will. 517 00:58:50,590 --> 00:58:54,220 You don't need to know Arabic. Even scholars doesn't have to understand Arabic. 518 00:58:54,430 --> 00:59:01,240 So that's why you would understand from the beginning of this petition that the Hebrew literature will be so different from Arabic literature. 519 00:59:01,510 --> 00:59:06,970 So you learning Andalusian Hebrew literature completely different, different discipline from Arabic literature, 520 00:59:07,510 --> 00:59:10,660 and for them that's the moment of partition that they will try to prevent. 521 00:59:16,990 --> 00:59:27,310 And in terms of an Arabic naming ceremony city today, Anderson, that's where the concepts of like the semi, the Abrahamic come in. 522 00:59:27,460 --> 00:59:31,460 If they do come in, yes, I think the Semite is very into it. 523 00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:38,590 In a bombshell, me who died because I was trained in in the German intel system, 524 00:59:38,590 --> 00:59:43,510 he did this on the note, one of the famous Islamic scholars in Germany. 525 00:59:43,780 --> 00:59:47,260 So he knew very well the Semite discussion. 526 00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:51,940 So in his writing, there is it's a lot there, but he's always saying what I'm saying. 527 00:59:51,940 --> 00:59:56,350 Semite is not what the European trying to say because he knows what they mean. 528 00:59:56,380 --> 01:00:03,300 I'm saying that going back to the prophet spirit for him, eastern is the prophets to experience the spirit of religion. 529 01:00:03,340 --> 01:00:09,650 That's all to say, of course, that this is this discussion have to go into least perception into it. 530 01:00:09,670 --> 01:00:15,069 But he tried to divide himself outside of that. And even in one of his quotes, 531 01:00:15,070 --> 01:00:23,710 he said this European Jews are trying to they don't understand that what they're saying is going with this Aryan point of view. 532 01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:28,210 So, yeah, even understand that word in early 20th century. 533 01:00:28,870 --> 01:00:33,700 And he said, no, we have to go out of this binary between Aryan and Semites. 534 01:00:33,940 --> 01:00:44,380 But in the same time, he's imagining essentialist Eastern objects of us as opposed to the modern. 535 01:00:44,770 --> 01:00:48,550 I mean, those are would be. But we have to read him from his time and not to do. 536 01:00:49,130 --> 01:00:54,070 And that's why my big question here is a question for me as a researcher, 537 01:00:54,070 --> 01:00:58,270 I think is is a generation of researchers that already were trained in this post 538 01:00:58,270 --> 01:01:03,460 partitioned because I was trained not in Arab and he was trained in Hebrew. 539 01:01:04,090 --> 01:01:09,730 And I don't know the life I don't have the scope that Avuncular had when he wrote these things. 540 01:01:10,030 --> 01:01:16,700 So what I'm doing to him, I'm always can reducing him to my world and I always have to be reflective about it. 541 01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:25,450 So at the same time, what he meant and what I think we already trapped in this post partitioned disciplinary and that when Jewish 542 01:01:25,450 --> 01:01:32,170 studies are separate from Muslim Islamic studies on in Arabic literature and Hebrew literature are separated. 543 01:01:32,410 --> 01:01:36,280 So they're writing from their point of view to try to prevent this partition. 544 01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:41,260 But we are already trapped in this post partition, the reality in the Abrahamic works. 545 01:01:41,740 --> 01:01:49,240 So I didn't see Abrahamic and I think it's a concept that came later, but I didn't see it in their writings. 546 01:01:50,470 --> 01:02:01,810 This is. And my personal opinion is that there for reason is different from Zionism because the asexuals 547 01:02:01,810 --> 01:02:10,000 that the native population would be threatened who died with their religious beliefs and so on, 548 01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:21,700 she stated. But my other question was, would it be possible for you to read this poem in Arabic? 549 01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:25,389 Yes, I can, but for me it would be hard to really translate it. 550 01:02:25,390 --> 01:02:29,920 But I can understand. My Arabic is basic is not enough to do it. 551 01:02:30,250 --> 01:02:35,079 Yeah, but I have to admit, I don't have the. 552 01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:43,330 There must be a YouTube. Yes. You need to hear what's beautiful and familiar with Mahmoud, which I think is a phenomenon, is really a phenomenon. 553 01:02:43,330 --> 01:02:46,960 Because for him, in his readings came hundreds of people. 554 01:02:47,350 --> 01:02:53,650 He was a star in the Arab world after his exile. And every time you read this is the poem, you rewrote it. 555 01:02:53,830 --> 01:02:59,230 I think he said it in one of his interviews. And he's a phenomenon not just only to see him reading it. 556 01:02:59,260 --> 01:03:04,680 I think it will be a reference to the youth. 557 01:03:04,690 --> 01:03:15,010 You could sort of situate yourself in the postscript of this history because and it interesting your story sort of ends in 19 1448, 558 01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:19,900 but there seems to be some sort of rediscovery of this area of the culture. 559 01:03:19,930 --> 01:03:23,880 Yes. And I wonder what it has to do with the political. 560 01:03:23,890 --> 01:03:31,690 Yes. Possibilities for a one state solution and people who in the sort of utopian business reconstruct the idea of the culture. 561 01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:38,500 So do you think? It's a really good question. And I think it's connected to what I said in the end of that about the reduction, 562 01:03:38,770 --> 01:03:42,520 because now I'm trying to be, you know, conscious not to do reduction. 563 01:03:42,910 --> 01:03:51,069 But for me, I started my work on and when Shimon Peres people here are familiar with but but Arab Jews that wrote in Arabic 564 01:03:51,070 --> 01:03:58,120 in Iraq and moved to write started in Arabic in Israel and then moved to Hebrew because there is a social method. 565 01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:01,749 They were they were the ones that stayed on writing in Arabic. 566 01:04:01,750 --> 01:04:09,310 They were writers without their audience because the average just dealing with them and the Palestinian and interest in their writings. 567 01:04:09,550 --> 01:04:13,330 So for me that was the my masters was about human balance and other. 568 01:04:13,770 --> 01:04:17,960 Abby Joseph I think I'm, of course, is coming from political involvement. 569 01:04:17,970 --> 01:04:23,100 I was involved in Mizrachi movement and I'm still very involved into it and the politics of it. 570 01:04:23,100 --> 01:04:28,110 So it's it's of course connected in my today I wanted to go one generation before so I started we did 571 01:04:28,110 --> 01:04:35,459 talk show me a seven night Arab Jewish writing in Hebrew so I wanted to write about him might be a dream, 572 01:04:35,460 --> 01:04:39,000 but then through him I discovered this never like a generation before. 573 01:04:39,660 --> 01:04:42,950 So in the beginning, when I read, of course about shalom, you that if you reading it, 574 01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:50,850 you have lots of letters and articles and others, you're still your first instinct is that, oh, this is an opposition to anything. 575 01:04:52,260 --> 01:04:53,729 This is exactly opposition. 576 01:04:53,730 --> 01:05:01,709 This is a and and in a certain point in my kids the I discovered I think on a moving here and and so that I need to be really 577 01:05:01,710 --> 01:05:09,150 careful not doing it because if I would do it only as a position to Zionism as an anti-Zionist voices or alternative figures, 578 01:05:09,420 --> 01:05:15,389 I think that this is will be the reduction of what they said to and the post partition, 579 01:05:15,390 --> 01:05:19,080 but it would be a reduction project for them because there were more of them. 580 01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:23,770 That's why I tried to say here, but maybe I didn't deliver it enough. I think they are much more than anti. 581 01:05:23,850 --> 01:05:26,640 There was Zionist in the sense that they had lots of contradiction into them. 582 01:05:26,910 --> 01:05:31,559 And yet the figure there's lots of contradictions it was a supportive of Zionism believe 583 01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:35,370 was critical of Arab nationalism in a certain point and it's it's a great figure. 584 01:05:35,580 --> 01:05:40,950 Yeah and of course is it so deficit a great figure as an imperial then he went to Madrid and the conversation with 585 01:05:40,950 --> 01:05:49,559 the king and there is this is figures with them imperial logic and they have lots of contradiction into them. 586 01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:55,640 And so I said to them unto to it is the money to Zionism, anti-Zionist or not, and Islam's religious secular people. 587 01:05:55,890 --> 01:06:01,290 Not that it's I think it's a reduction to do it, but in the beginning of of course I was there. 588 01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:10,050 Yeah. And I'm still, I think putting them in Hebrew sometimes I do it because I think bringing yourself mucus into the discussion on, on and on. 589 01:06:10,380 --> 01:06:18,120 If the David in the US was born, it moved to Silwan when he was five and now they're the elderly. 590 01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:26,489 The settlers are coming and doing lots of it's the one they're doing and tours and they're 591 01:06:26,490 --> 01:06:30,830 going to his house and there's a big Israeli flag and they say this is not racist. 592 01:06:30,850 --> 01:06:34,230 Middle class said so because they didn't want his heritage to be. 593 01:06:34,500 --> 01:06:39,930 Now we are going back to our indigenous. Yeah, look, we do have one in in Jarrar in Sudan. 594 01:06:39,930 --> 01:06:46,290 We are the settlers are now proclaiming the indigenous rights of us and other Arab Jews them. 595 01:06:46,290 --> 01:06:49,120 And sometimes I'm going in and said, no, this is nothing. 596 01:06:49,140 --> 01:06:55,650 Three of us said, So sometimes, of course there is a political the current political situation is very important, but scholarly. 597 01:06:55,650 --> 01:06:59,340 We have to be more careful not to put them as only as a position. 598 01:07:01,740 --> 01:07:07,680 So following this line, there was many of us. 599 01:07:08,100 --> 01:07:15,120 We know the Israeli Minister and Minister of Education embarked on a project in which 600 01:07:15,510 --> 01:07:23,420 some aspects of non Ashkenazi history would be reintroduced into the curriculum. 601 01:07:23,850 --> 01:07:28,230 Do know if they approach these characters at all. And if they do, how do? 602 01:07:28,530 --> 01:07:33,270 And now after my article was published about they've been quick in their casting 603 01:07:33,300 --> 01:07:39,370 someone I think she's a religious as she's from their education but she she 604 01:07:40,110 --> 01:07:43,950 contacted me and said I'm really interested in this so far the voices only 605 01:07:43,950 --> 01:07:48,410 Sephardi voices so she they understand that the spoken coastal was critical. 606 01:07:48,500 --> 01:07:56,489 But you can if you're going to find Gaza later, you will be a Zionist early Zionism because, you know, there is a very famous, 607 01:07:56,490 --> 01:08:10,350 I think very important work on kind of Italian is a autodidact historian but the he was the editor of me one of the been to be very famous and he 608 01:08:10,350 --> 01:08:19,920 wrote about these figures and he called this the book it's your name we born Zionists so for him the or Zionist that the early voices of Zionism. 609 01:08:20,130 --> 01:08:30,240 So if the discourse the Ashkenazi dominant discourse will be the most likely one to Zandi's the didn't have any affiliation to nationalism. 610 01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:33,420 We saved them from the Arabs and we bought them and we we educated them. 611 01:08:33,420 --> 01:08:34,620 No, they said no, this is different. 612 01:08:34,620 --> 01:08:44,030 Project will show that even the Iraqis in the twenties, in the thirties was an east and of course the Palestinian Jews were Zionist. 613 01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:48,270 And we can see them and we can bring these voices and will we label them as analysts. 614 01:08:48,870 --> 01:08:52,170 So this that you have this kind of projects going together. 615 01:08:52,320 --> 01:09:00,180 And I think, again, that's why I'm afraid to go to this game of either alternatives or position to Zionism or positivism, 616 01:09:00,750 --> 01:09:07,530 because I think their voices are taking us to the pre partition discourse and we have to, 617 01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:13,380 to put it, I think we have I think the political project would be for us to go to. 618 01:09:13,700 --> 01:09:20,630 To re-imagine this partition discourse, political discourse, cultural discourse, disciplinary discourse, of course. 619 01:09:20,930 --> 01:09:28,640 And this will be the political veneer budget when we come across to the clients about this. 620 01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:34,790 Yes, it's silly, but I'm going to check you down on that. 621 01:09:34,790 --> 01:09:39,500 Yes. And when did you write your name? 622 01:09:39,530 --> 01:09:42,710 2008. 2008. And all these figures are there? 623 01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:48,860 2008. I really recommend you two to read the book. 2008 I think it went down in the events. 624 01:09:48,860 --> 01:10:01,170 The publisher said, Yeah, this is what the I think Sokolov was set about there, this fabulous, the whole zone. 625 01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:07,430 So for him, for the input, for him, it's really covering the Zionism of the Arab Jews. 626 01:10:08,030 --> 01:10:11,140 And of course, it's very institution. That's why they do it. They're doing that. 627 01:10:11,300 --> 01:10:14,840 And every for Iraq, they have a book about Iraq and Zionism in Iraq. 628 01:10:15,170 --> 01:10:19,850 If you go to demolish it and if you visit Malaysia, it's unbelievable. 629 01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:24,080 You have the Gil Neme you have there, there all the time and then they're going to modern time. 630 01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,170 It's only Zionist movement, even though the Communists were much more. 631 01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:34,880 Yeah, but you have every picture of every seven there were I know hundreds of 300 to 500 Zionist in the, in the underground. 632 01:10:35,210 --> 01:10:41,870 But it's, it's only Zionism and this is the only way today to taste, to admit their collective memory. 633 01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:48,469 It's to Zionism. Oh, now we have the new thing. I think it's more, for me, more worrying than the Zionism. 634 01:10:48,470 --> 01:11:00,860 It's to to label Arab Jews as as refugees in that sense, to to come to the Palestinians and try to normalise the Palestinian Nakba. 635 01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:05,060 So you and you were refugees? We were refugees. 636 01:11:05,540 --> 01:11:12,380 So we are now even. That's it. So the political question is out, and I think this is the most worrying and I see it even here in London, 637 01:11:12,860 --> 01:11:17,209 the Arab Jews in London are telling that there's lots of Sharif and other movements. 638 01:11:17,210 --> 01:11:23,150 And and I went to the Sephardi voices, the old training only bet stories, 639 01:11:23,450 --> 01:11:28,550 if you need to remember that it's only when they were persecuted in sixties and early seventies. 640 01:11:28,670 --> 01:11:39,050 That's the only way to remember what we had that maybe we should talk more about. 641 01:11:43,270 --> 01:11:49,190 Because he was so cautious in his. What launches on him. 642 01:11:50,610 --> 01:11:57,220 All right. Okay. There's someone who's been waiting on him. I think we should conclude here. 643 01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:01,100 I want to thank you so much for this. Wonderful. Thank you very much for the discussion. 644 01:12:01,100 --> 01:12:06,190 And we'll see you in Trinity. Thank you. 645 01:12:12,210 --> 01:12:15,630 The suit is. I mean, do you have the.