And. So good afternoon, everybody.
My name is Peter Bergman, and welcome to the final seminar in Hillary term series for the reconsidering really Jewish nationalist ideologies.
I am very, very excited to to welcome our guest.
He's a colleague and friend, Dr. Leonard Shapiro from Vienna.
I'm going to just flip screens to read her bio because my memory isn't that good anymore.
Ilana is a cultural and design historian and the project leader of the Austrian Science Fund Research Project,
Visionary Vienna Design and Society, 1918 to 1944, which she convened from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty one.
She's a senior postdoctoral fellow and lecturer in design, history and theory at the University of Applied Arts in Vienna.
And Ilana's the author of Starland Seduction Jewish Patrons Architectural Design and Send A of Vienna,
which was published by Brandeis University Press in 2016.
And she's the editor of Design Dialogue Jews Culture and Wienies Modernism, published by Buelow in 2018,
which I've a book I know very, very well and use quite a lot of my own teaching and I would recommend is an excellent resource.
And she's also the editor of the forthcoming anthology Designing Yes Designing
Transformation Jews and Cultural Identity and Central European Modernism,
published by Bloomsbury are coming forthcoming Bloomsbury 2021.
Ilana's further the co-editor of the following anthologies based on the proceedings of international symposiums that she's
Koku organised once freude in the Emigre Emigre Cultures and Design and Architecture and her forthcoming symposium,
organised together with uncut cuts. Wolfsberg is get started in enthrone design exams to have them green and deficient treat site.
So what was a good start and how do you translate that in London?
By design figures, women design and society in Vienna in the interwar years,
which will take place at the museum from day on the Constable Museum of Applied Arts in Vienna in many 1921.
Alanah is going to speak to us today about Berta Zuckerkandl and her Circo Austrian nationalism, and I called the Rathod title is on this episode.
You can finish the title for Malana anyway. Welcome. Thank you very much, Peter.
Thank you very much, Jakob and Peter, for the invitation and very excited to present my talk today in front of some of the colleagues and friends.
It's a final up action. Know my book style and seduction in regard to how the end is modernism addressed Jewish topics and Jewish press.
I would say Jewish ID when I was preparing for the talk today, I was wondering,
I was almost surprised how much material I've found about the relationship between that that took account and an affirmation of culture.
Austrian nationalism. And I would then just to refracting to define it before I start my talk show.
Austrian nationalism very similar to Jewish culture on that culture, Jewish nationalism that was defined by my.
It's about renewal and transformation, of course, of art and the literature.
And when I referred to us, Berta Zuckerkandl and her salon, it's it's a story that starts in the late 80s, 80s in her own salon,
that there are some several chapters ahead before and the head the first and I start in regard to her own perspective,
upline syndrome as a cultural centre in Vienna in the 80s, 90s.
She developed it following the model of her father.
Lois Ships was the editor of the Nice having a tag flat and had a connexions with local, contemporary, but also other Europeans.
He also collaborated with Crown Prince Rootlets. And I will speak about that briefly later.
What is critical about the salon was that it became a kind of the Northumbrian centre of creative writing,
or when we knew the cultural Austrian nationalism and the identification of what's Austrian nationalism,
Flyhalf was very clear because her father, who had an amazing career as a newspaper editor in the 70s and the 80s, and he was a publishing and.
One of the most successful newspapers, liberal newspapers in Vienna.
He at the early 80s started collaborating with Crown Prince will boost.
Paranoid and collaborating with liberal politicians in Paris, including Gambetta and Jerrold's elements.
So in outlining a liberal mission, a liberal mission,
a Western mission of Austin will guarantee that we combat the recent calls for unification with Germany in Austria.
And for him for more chips. Basically, the basic idea was to try and construct in what the national identity of
Austrian nationalism that will be based on the study of each nation in Austria,
Hungarian. And we'd be out of respect would the Crown Prince of Austria well, more into promoting Austrian Museum and all over the territories.
And somehow there was a negotiation between the two about coming up with a new grand project of the state of a publishing project.
Austria, Hungary, in words and images and pictures that would be based on scientific and literature work,
studying each of the nations and the ethnic groups.
And this kind of a heritage that she inherited from my father followed besides the fact that he was prosecuted when the German
nationalistic clothing tafsir and Shannara brought it to kind of an outline of what sepulchral Austrian nationalist ideology,
according to her and DSR referred to in relation to her own promotion of the late in the late 80s 90s of modernism of Austrian modernist.
It was, and I quote enthusiastically,
a fellow with the slogan slogan that was coined by Hevesi to the time it's often to the artist's freedom into action.
It was a question of defending a purely Austrian culture,
a form of art that could well together art to correct the mistakes of a multitude of constituent peoples into a new and proud unity.
But to be Austria did not mean to be German. Austrian culture.
Now, given her relationship with Paris that were established by her father just time and so and has to step into the system, married Sophie,
married the brother of Joe's Clemenceau and had contacts with prominent artists in France like that, you can come in and stay with them.
A group of young artists that were directed that rebelled, that just wanted to rebuild again,
or were leaving the consulate house in which was the main art institute in Vienna at the time
and wanted to organise a new orchestra situation to hire and recording a within her salon.
They decided to renew modernist art movement and this included major protagonist of the time.
I think that the fact that it was responsible for the for the railroads in Vienna, for the Underground Railroad, that the time and you have Goosestep,
which was the major and the president of the new association was the Flame and Cudmore,
who was also very much a part of this new organisation, and also to the dealing part, the art dealing part of the it's an.
Now, when they come to how she has already established this alone, that included also colleagues of her husband.
Yeah. Who was a professor of anatomy at the University of Vienna and Fordham Law.
There were also Minbar Bar journalists who she worked with.
Since then, she has been publishing since 1894 on Applied Arts and a French artist.
And it included also some literary personalities like Hugel from Hofman, Stull and OCTA Metzler.
And when she does it, they keep a kind of vague, you know, an acknowledgement.
Please promote. Are you OK? Move McNinch Vienna.
But, you know, it took a lot of negotiations about her role as a leader, as a journalist,
and also negotiations about arranging actually the assignments so MISCH contracts.
But then that made her actually at the set himself not only a support from
journalistic review actually making for them context in different professions.
And that, to me, with the doctors of Madisons musicians, Gustav Mahler,
who was the director of the Opera House at the time, she did them in the symbol's.
It kind of took an environment to negotiate different ideas.
Yeah. And what was the most important for her at the time?
A spot of modernisation was to promote the idea of, I would say,
a kind of actually revival revival for discusses with science and arts, which was part integral part of her salon.
Now, at the time, you're speaking about 1897. This is the time when a group of young artists rebelled against the A house
that could serve the academic Athens mission in Vienna at this time in 1897.
Let's see what's going on here. 1897, she has already published.
She hasn't read the Estonian provenance so long. She has several networks.
Her closest associate that this time is National Bar, who was an editor of the journal Side Bar, has dough.
Has been has just come back from Paris. He became also the spokesman of the young of the young.
We enter a new literary group as a kind of representative also of Austrian newsa stability.
And the naturalism buyer has published in 1894 a book about anti-Semitism.
And this isn't a surprise. Perhaps for several people, a surprise given the fact that he had belonged to a German nationalist movement, quote,
out of the where he the action told the Herald Sun and Tandoor had said it was being and also just came back from Paris published.
In the meantime, in 1896, his pamphlet, his most important pamphlet, The Jewish State in 1896.
So this is 1897 when everything comes together, 1896, you have Kaluga being elected for the second time in the booth, as in May of the end.
And within this group of people that is coming together, Hetson, those central people of the people who were organised around this decision,
movement, including moving a sheep with whom he has published in the Human Race Journal, Ludvig Habashi and Hannemann Bar.
Together, we took a kind of reequipped both the secession as a cultural Austrian nationalism.
But what is important here, that anti-Semitism is always in the background,
always in the background, not only because of the Dreyfus affair that starts in 1894 in Paris,
which in the centre of that, that the people who supported the innocence of Drive was in the salon of Assistant Farad's.
Every person that we mention here, including Kidston himself, had to negotiate.
The concept. I think that social phenomena.
Now, when Barr publishes he spoke in 1894, yeah, a few years before the Jewish state.
It's after there was a crisis, you know, between him and had so since both of them belonged to the same German nationalist movement.
And in 1883, when he gives a speech after the death of the head Viking, the composer, he actually legitimises his racial anti-Semitism.
And this closes in reaction had to leave this German nationalist theme.
So they have had some shared Backshall. So what does it mean?
Yeah. So we have a multinational loyalest the concept of Austrian nationalism that is promoted by birth that the candle at the time.
You have Amaia Pandu Echo who provokes Senate for big modernism.
So she has that inclusive modernism. But this versus the Senate for modernism of FUB of Kaluga.
And at the same time, you have people with it, including the artistic auto bagna that I mentioned before as that guy who came to her and said,
come and help us create this new art movement. And later on the 19th, the as it is the quote here where he says, I can assure you,
this councillor, that you would have been an excellent minister of art.
It is a shame that you are not so within this group of people, of artists, of Jonan lists, of cultural critics.
We have a kind of a negotiation with antisemitism on one hand.
And what my dear friend and colleague Lisa Silberman would point out, not anti-Semitism per se, hate Jew as hate of Jews,
but also of Jewish differences, meaning the cultural construction and different degrees of difference between Jews and non Jews.
This is something that was very critical. And the question arises how this evolved to the book.
I think the van looked into a situation in which icons of the new, quote,
an Austrian nationalist movement, icons that were identified by the leading yeah,
that were created by the LICKY leading off to school sort of claim the case,
the language that was exhibit that the 19 or eight actually reworked Zionist graphic sources.
And I refer here to the port artist of the Zionist movement to find Moses Lillia and the silent song from the nineteen hundred.
How come? Did he give me work? I mean, what was his what did you think when you originally thought about it?
How can you. And I think there is a long process that we tried to outline for you now.
Yeah. So we have the background of the Multi-National lissom or the multinational Zouma.
We'll say I worked in Nacionale Austrian identity.
The promotion that diversity is the is the source of unity.
We have a coincidence of time or Piolín or I would say partly it was innovative in the
vote that they put into the world in which you have the state to the Jewish state,
you have their secession movement, 1897 being developed.
Now you will have it.
I mean, I will come back to this comparison at the end, but we need to know now is that the origin of this site and I'm song by Fine Moses Liliom.
It was a book. It was a best selling book that came out December nineteen hundred by a German nationalist, actually, who believed in racial Jews.
I mean, we've been to his admiration of Judaism will say, oh, this is the race to survive its centuries long.
And and this German nationalist has somehow reworked the call.
Would, they say, go back to history and reclaim your pride and beauty.
Go back to Zion. And it's a serious of protected song.
That's his. I would just. Yet in regard to reclaiming authority and reclaiming national group identity of the Jews about patronising,
you should go back and reclaim your heroic things with five.
And now and then look, we happened, she said one of the one of the leading spokesmen of the secession.
He writes a review of, you know, with the fact that the Christian Zionist and a poet.
And then he says, I'm very sorry. Your songs may be good, may be pathetic, maybe good.
Some of them are nice. The drawing may be very good. It's very interesting to look at, but don't tell us what to do.
We are not going to go back to Psion if we want to go back to Zion, its actions.
We are not going to hear it from someone else. So there is a kind of an ambivalence stuck with you and several.
And there were different. Even the wife of Lilyan himself said this.
People that I'm sorry, there's a typo here and it should be without.
And even the wife of you said those who who are embracing Zionism be aware because they're relatively they actually want to throw you out of you.
And so when it comes to the references of sources of Zionist art Zionists, the crack of the and the Viennese modernism,
we have to reflect how come it entered old several icons and they come back to look at the because Zuckerkandl and her role models in Vienna.
This is something that they have also presented in my book about different woman who
negotiated for the Jewish perspective what they perceive as the correct Austrian nationalism.
And you have fundi from Arnstein, her sister, Sassy Escalus. Yeah.
Josephine footbath lunchtime and Sophie to this group. Each one of them had took a role, a central role in Austria from 18.
With two, I would say 19 to the 18 nineties in which they managed to break into the front and into integrate into high culture.
The Jewish perspective. What does it mean, the Jewish perspective?
It means that, for example, in the living paintings event, that the salon of soffit, the guest,
those Thorpdale you have in attempt to recreate the morning Jews in Babylon, referring to the diaspora a story or you have the facade of this.
So it kind of did that with the tiara and star of David referring to the Queen Esther.
Oh, you have in there from the ceiling and the ceiling of the dance was the combination of Hester, another painting,
the judgement of Hammond, which is the story of the saving of the Jews from a conspiracy to kill them and during the Persian art.
And then you have also more both. So you have at the opening of the Theatre of the Royal Theatre in 1888,
its choice to present France, Britain to Esther from 1840 together with little children.
But what is interesting is that the s that that is a long monologue of modified.
And this is it.
Then how come Jewish nationalism and the Viennese modernism and because it was always there in the background so s that eighteen eighty a there
is a long monologue of commodify speaking about how the Jews were persecuted in history and how they have tried to come to terms with it.
This is something these voices were already in. These choices were already integrated into high culture in Vienna.
So when it comes to Viennese modernism, and it should be noted yet that it will cause a revival of Austrian nationalism as an all inclusive project.
There was no way that they were negated. There was no way that they would for the side.
And one thing that is very critical for this project was, as I said, Herman Bar.
You had said long time ago he admired him.
As my colleague Van Harnik in design dialogue pointed out, he fashioned him as a prince in his writings.
He fashioned he wasn't a Syrian prince is a beauty exotic size.
You can have some more of that. Now, you could say synthesising within the mentalizing way like a quote.
Yeah, but Hamman. But also believe that Zionism.
The solution for the Jewish problem was very much ambivalent.
Like like exactly like Boltzmann's Hudson in the Jenson's that they will refer to today.
He was very but very much ambivalent about the Clutha, the Jews and their central role in the production of Austrian nationalism.
So they said one quote that tee'd when he gave it an approval in the Senate.
I trusted you. But you wouldn't slogger in the event of the newspaper that the parents had founded in 1897.
He said, All my efforts invested in art have ultimately represented the white desire for the heroic.
Well, these Jews have to build it for themselves. What would be more ROI than the decision to turn one spring into action?
The dream was to return to Palestine. Yeah, that was the dream.
Yeah. If this comes back to the Jewish state,
when he states that have no human being as well feel powerful enough to transplant a nation for me on an invitation to another another.
So this is something very critical. And I think that when Daisy Park to Zion, yeah, there is a call to sign and get even their own newspaper,
that where it was the editor of the floor humorous paper. And they make a joke.
When you look at this, Dandi, he will go back to Israel and make sure that his shoes would be kept.
Yeah. And you have this Classico. This was something that was a dream.
It kind of investa me that I suggested in my book style seduction related to the construct and the secession house.
And here we have Joseph McCarthy in our belief, one of the early drawings for the secession house.
And we have him to ask the Polish synagogue, you know, Paul Gosset.
Twenty nine as a kind of stay with the golden couple.
And this to the idea of Jerusalem and he and as a kind of a talking of reminder of the lost Jerusalem and the Orient,
and you will have had this sea referring to the secession house and magical impression,
a piece of the Orient in Vienna referring not to the idea of reconstructing Jerusalem.
And we end up with the kind of formal dress that will be also Jewish should dress, but an inclusive for everyone.
No. Disassociate. This is session. Was billed as as an inclusive process, the most explosive cultural project,
because if you look at the calendar, you'll find that different religions see.
You have Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthodox. And he's the guy, Lethe.
Sometimes it was Jewish. Sometimes it was Israeli peace. But definitely, definitely all religions will be included.
The secession Calenda, which means that there was an acknowledgement. It was part of the idea of diversity.
Now, I'm just referring very fast, very fast to what Carrack that the GOP can offer.
What kind of a salon she offered? You know, in contrast to the two, her predecessors.
And it also conchas to Akesson more women at the time like Ramallah and InGenius Robots.
But she had one thing that is very critical for the clerical and anti religious and secular KRC,
the very similar to Zionism, but at the heart of the Viennese modernism and the.
And the aim to renew Austrian nationalism was the medical was the young enemy to become professor of anatomy,
Richard Theft Ebbing, who was died early, but he was part of the scene.
And you have Adam Pulitzer, who was both a that also patron of the new Jewish Museum in Vienna, was opened in 1896, 1895.
And you have the musician Olfert and the pianist and composer.
This my life. There were also the young viene do mean she refers to them as the beginning of Austudy.
You have philosothon an opportunity. Why I'm seeing is a very interesting.
It that it didn't. Zionism, as I will show you, became a Jewish perspective, but it didn't have to be Zionist.
In order to be a Jewish perspective, when you in in in in the took a Kansas alone,
what does it mean that two memories that she brings up in her memoirs from 1940 posted one in defence of patients.
Two did two different cultural events. One is the music event,
an event in 1892 at the salon of Jonge House where it was so important for her that it was at the boyfriend
who was playing the piano and that John Strauss of John Schwarcz music and Strauss was speaking.
Oh, my inspiration for the Viennese operetta is from often buffs and born.
So this completely alarmed.
What do you mean often by telling me that French France is their region of Austrian coach of the overseas opera and he says none of them.
I have some impressions from here and they have my background in the Vienna who have been invited.
Then I have.
It is in no approach that and so and then he says a trench, he took a content and looked at times and you dumped me, my dear lady, telling me what to.
Maybe not in the. His actions as well.
And she turns to him. But this man said, Austria, this is Austrian coach, you know.
And so in many ways, the idea is that the idea was that going for the Jewish B.A. Strauss is the Austrian musician coming together,
building up in you Austrian idea. Yeah. Negotiating distance, national defence with France.
Negotiating. Yeah. What's the difference between French culture and Austrian culture?
This was part of the discussions. It has to look like that.
And it will be a different variation of the standard story of Ford once the secessions was there.
I wouldn't continue. So now the question arises.
So. Wouldn't be Riphat. He Jews as part of the main leading producer of OST cultural Austrian nationalist.
There was a lot of opposition opposition not only from German nationalists,
but also from also from Jews like in Nineteen Hundred in the World exhibition in France.
Then what do you plan things that will position next to each other.
One was a dinner event in the tiff in Syria, a family showing the lady of the house a Jewish permanent Jewish faith,
John the Adivasi philosophy and the first one to criticise it as they construction
as part of the construction of modernist Austrian art was Karl Krauss,
the editor of the fact that they say the only reason that they like clearing is because they dismiss it eventually as Jewish art,
because Cleartrip isn't Jewish. And then said it twice.
Yeah, this was Jewish art. I mean, stylistically, it wasn't the similar.
I mean, this is the black romanticism. This was more natural impressionist naturalism.
And still, I think there was an attempt by the patrons themselves to position himself in
the market that they would be directly connected with the modern movement.
And so the question was, and when it came to undermining, undermining Jewish patrons always came.
Part of the this was and demanding the authorship of Jewish sanctions of Jewish culture producers.
There was always the references to the Galician Jews as it pertains to Jews, and that could direct the Jews were not the authentic Jews.
And so there was one hand undermining Jews thought to write the Jews as being Jews at all at the end.
But at the same time positioning them as a symbiotic way with the Polish Jews, the Galician Jews anthem mining their way off.
Of course they're wrong or their authority is cultural, as good producers of Austrian nationalism at the same time.
You have a huge attraction in the Jewish museum opens and it has the greatest trubek,
a room that is being constructed from the Polish house in Galicia and Jewish Polish house.
You have a sort of koffman beam of winning a prise in the Koestler house.
You will have the book that from the same book that was initiated by Tom France would love Austrian
Garryowen when the theme words and pictures dedicating sections to Jews only in year over year.
And these Jews, there were only Jews and good in the Austrian, Daryn, when the theory poured into this project.
But there were also a lot of ambivalence, a lot of ambivalence that came from a small house and for sure,
the German, but also from the French Clemenceau. There was an attraction and ambivalence.
And you have one of the books in 1898 parallel to this defence of Dreyfus that was illustrated by Thomas Trek reckoned,
which you have on hand if uncanny imagery of Polish Jews and Clemans.
So we have to know he was the closest one of the closest to, I would say, companions of Battle took a candle.
And this comes and at the same time you have the kind of food, the shavitz sink stories in the book admiring.
This is after, say, in relation to Zionist movement and how Zionism entered as a kind of iconographic source for the production of
Austrian ideals is that there had to come to Asia and Jews there had to come to terms with the Galician Jews.
They had to come to clumps of the Galician in Vienna and Zionism when their way was a form for them to cultivate the gays and Jews,
to make them more closer to Europeans to beautify them.
And you have with the different frame Moses Lilyan is trying to show us in his Etchingham drawings,
he tries to show us how you can beautify and how you could make them look more or more.
I would say salon fee. Yeah, that they could enter the salon if they could to rate the Jews.
And this is something very critical. This was part of his role, part of Zionism.
And you have one of the main. Here you have a book by Stephan SVI, one of the first books published on the fly, mostly in the Jozo the Yangtze Vagg.
Was it believed it was a friend of 1000 in the thread?
Lillian and you could see from his very romantic language approval of how you move a transformation of identity.
So he's created world view when he speaks about describing his art is neither random nor Barot.
His originality blossoms forth into life from his own native soul.
Galizia, then from Falke, we call McTell a Jewish and racial values from national imbued scientist and personal faith.
So you could see how it moves. How Coalition and Jewish Jansing Design Society.
This is kind of an umbrella to this negotiations.
If identity it mostly, and it should be noted, came from Galicia, from a book background and maybe Discovery Belene as an illustrator of the union.
And so Zionism, as it might, I suggest, offered.
It kind of a I would say, refashioning of the ugliness of this so-called ugliness of Galician Jews.
Could it somehow tank then? And at the same time, it's also offered Jews who were leading members of the cultural producers of the N.
I like that. One of the main authors of Vienna and Bill Hoffman, Richard Beth Hoffman, a kind of thin model here.
We have the interior of the house of Richard Bierhoff.
And then there was a star of David that the entrance above the entrance still.
And you have him kind of fit working and making Joseph Hoffman,
who was one of the main leaders of the modern its movement, making him rework a kind of faith, a synagogue.
Then you have lastly this Larfleeze, former Yamen, you have something here you have they also use the reference,
the ratio to the blood for the forefathers awakening very similar to the language of Stefan Zweig.
This is something that we disappear eventually with some of these authors, but it's something that plays into the racial identification of Jews also.
But antisemitism, racial doubleness, this is something very loaded.
And then you have something that I'm going to conclude with slowly.
Is that. The Zionistic not a fee that I would say inflicted right on these modern isn't for sure.
As we see here in a text written by S in his book on the claim was about exactly the moto of bogus Muklas and go back to history.
And Saturn says, yeah, we have you coming back from history to ask.
And she is one of the Jewish women that is walking down the streets of the down the village plaza.
And how lovely that we have this revival's, biblical revival.
But you still have here it kind of because up this is zation oriented zation,
the very dubious image of a woman losing control of this sexually, like it's kind of an orgasm in front of the people.
And she had her surface being being taken off by her.
Yeah. So this is something very critical. But you have that you have this romantic idea that we are back into the biblical
times and we're seeing this biblical woman just going down the streets.
Who's there? And so if this is part of FLDS in support of Glooscap claim, fairly certain, was very close member of to pick on that.
And just another figure that is very, very critical.
But this is the change. And here I mean I mean, Zionism. Zionism developed.
Efraim Moses a'lelia, developing his art for moving too from the sexualised woman.
Yeah, they found fertile. Into a more mature woman. This is an argument that is being presented in the recent book by Soire.
That's a colleague from Australia wrote a book about the woman's state of the art of the front of Moses Lilyan.
And you could see the transformation not only of the Galician Jews, how Zionistic ethnography changed the Galicians Jews into beautiful people.
You could see how they change. Also, they they allowed woman to free themselves from this set sensuality.
Are we in? And you have the sources of Adella about the second Eichmann,
the Viennese modernism that is celebrated today, referring back to Princess Savitz from Savard,
princess from the dead that I spoke with at the beginning,
and then that the figure of the top layer from the leader of the ghetto, you have a very similar haircut.
You have the idea of the queen sitting on his throne.
And instead of the star of David, you have a sense of duty from other Oriental symbols in the background concludes.
We have silk, a candle with a very,
very inspired set of people working together to create an inclusive culture of Austrian that lissom using the project.
The Viennese modern this as a representation, as a source of cultural revival.
Each one of them members of a saloon, specifically Hermann Bar Ludvig,
have a she had different relations to Jewish identity and Jewish difference in how they perceived Jewish difference.
Parallel, you have designed this movement and the court playing the Zionist movement Fry Moses Leon, developing his own positive fly on Monday.
I think when it comes to the creation of Austrian icons, we can't we must include the sources,
the Zionist sources, those that came before unification.
And actually, she refers to So PyCon, when she refers to the case in her review of the case, was painted by Feedstuff playing the most safe.
It didn't have anyone, nobody older. It actually nobody ordered that he was painting it for the commission, lighting the way.
It was one of the main exhibition to take place in Vienna at the time and it was bought before it was finished by the NOI again.
And we what was the National Ospel Gallery we had to find?
Now it's the building there when Zuckerkandl we first met.
She argues the end that the Orient are closely related, are closely related, and she refers to the fact that these are the dead,
that the flower is a reference to the Vienna vase, very critical to the landscape of the hiim that she refers to.
The the the gold in the dazzling the orien and dystonic to give that you have the mulberry.
And she sees this mixture of West and East and she says in claim things, strange mixture.
But we see also the references, Lillian, the starry night, the image of the man bending down to kiss, the woman trying to hold him kissing.
It's a different kind of relationship between the genders, between man and woman.
But there's the same you can not overlook the differences.
And I think it is critical to see it in order to see first how Jews came to terms with the Jewish background,
the Jewish narratives, with their antisemitism,
and how this managed to create the kind of thing unified the then that the within the Austrian nationalism, within culture, the Austrian nationalism.
Thank you very much. Alina, thank you very much for it, from his absolutely fascinating presentation, as you probably are not surprised to hear.
Boy, I can just say what I would have given to have been a dessert fork at one of Berta Zuckerkandl salons.
But, hey, I was born 100 years too late.
I suppose I think before before I ask any questions, I want to maybe point out to everyone, I mean, just how do I put the Q&A up here?
And I mean to see there's there's a question and answer chat.
So if you've got questions, please put them up. I think.
Ya'acov, were you. Are you going to load them up for us? Let me just see what the Q&A is open if you want.
If you have a question, please just type it in. The Q&A thing underneath.
So I suppose I just say, I think what's really interesting, I'm not sure if this is going to be a question or a comment.
We'll see in a second. But you've drawn together so many different kind of themes for me and obviously
for those of us in Oxford who kind of take part the Jewish Country Home Seminar.
A couple last week, we talked about kind of Oscar stress as being the French draught.
No, not the kind of we've talked about, let's say, what we might call the authentic Drahos,
although I don't know, my French colleagues may may disagree with me.
You've got this idea of Varney's nationalism, Hapsburgs nationalism, I would say,
as opposed to, let's say, Pando to German nationalism, which many Jews, in fact, embraced.
I would say and you've got the question of kind of coalition of the Eastern Jews versus the Western Jews, Zionism itself, literature.
And of course, for me, Muehler is in the centre of all this. I think it's I think I think this is what's written.
What are my intentions with this?
That's the theme of this seminar, just showing how complicated and let's say how sophisticated or or are these different nationalist dreams were.
And I suppose I don't know where I'm going with this,
except to say I remember I think one of our first conversations ever was when I was talking about this project.
I want to do you know, with this idea of Gustav Mahler, who was who was who, in fact, was introduced to his wife through the food,
through Bettas X Zepps Zuckerkandl, who was in fact whose whose brother in law was the brother of the French prime minister of Clemenceau.
Mahler was very, very good friends with the Klumb certain with Pickar Mueller conducted at the Paris attack.
What was at the Paris exhibition over 19 would tell you about the Vienna Opera Orchestra, the Vienna Philharmonic there conducted there.
He had very good friends with all these people.
Not once did we hear someone like Mahler here and talk about some like Dreyfus, which I find interesting.
There was a certain Austrian was this a Viennese Jewish unwillingness perhaps to talk to to to to focus inward?
And I wondered if you can maybe talk about that a little bit. Well, what I think and what I think and I wanted to tell you before,
when we that before we started at the top today, there is an interesting reference,
and that's a kind of an historical anecdote that actually shows how nationalism was so critical for the formation of modernism,
because in 1910 in Paris, they see huge debate about this.
Milo, if he represents a French or German nationalism,
and they ended up saying he represents a German nationalist, that therefore is kind of excluded.
Someone made a research about their perception of the Marleau in France.
And it didn't show how well he was received as a German.
He didn't get. He did indeed didn't perform his works afterwards for some four years when he was somehow closer to the French.
They said, OK, we can accept that. So there was a kind of air conditioning.
And therefore it was very critical also for those who were producing Austrian
nationalism to produce it in a manner that was very inclusive to everyone involved.
Yeah. But it's interesting that I suppose Mueller as well.
You know, Mueller, I mean, if you're going like his style was very much German in his composing,
Simon actually in his, let's say, ideological beliefs.
I mean, he was a big, big proponent of German nationalism and so much so that that when he performed his second symphony and I believe it was in Paris
and there was W.C. of they all walked out halfway through the performance because they couldn't come to terms with the music.
So I would say there's a very different, very, very strong line between between the two schools.
We've got a question from somebody called Anonymous who asked if Bert Berta Zuckerkandl spoke Polish.
And, you know, this is a very good question. This is a very good question.
I didn't know you spoke phoners adviser. Good question.
Because as I said, it was very important.
So let's look at Canada, too.
OK. Austrian Washington is built on respect between the nations of the Australian, the.
She never, never refers directly to the Galician Jews. She never does.
She only comes back to them during First World War when she supports their refugees.
And she calls for it.
She published two essays about assessing the Austrians to be more open minded than to integrate the refugees that are arriving each year.
But before that, you make doing the production of the Austrian well done at Moleskine Moleskin A and
she refers Olga to Polish nationalism and only Polish folk had there was the Polish.
Not that she has like two essays about that pride.
The proud Polish artist and that formation of the new Polish.
For her, it was also the negotiations of different acceptance of the in the Austrian garrison,
which will see the different groups, the independent groups of nationalism.
Thanks, Alina. Sir, Daniel Hardy has posted a group house to Venus, I would say Gristedes Red Cross spokesman.
He said at the risk of extending the discussion too far. But I think there's no issue there.
Was there tension with the authorities who might be both Austrian nationalism and Zionism as threatening to the county council?
Congression, Kaisa Elicia, multinational regime, not culture.
So, yeah, I know. So what's the question?
I'm not sure. Hang on. I'm just trying to read the incident.
So was there tension with the authorities who might be both Austrian nationalism and Zionism as threatening to the KKK,
the Austrian as a multinational regime and culture? I owe this visit, Cihan.
Slowly but surely came to be the representative of the very wealthy, the artist of the secession.
And those who left the secessions together with passive teams in 1985 represented the council exhibitions 1986 in London.
Then later on in the United States, there were those who represented the Austrian garrison weekly.
There was no question about that. And I think the site.
Zionism was so well assimilated into it that nobody would have noticed it.
It was often open at the time, its art into the arts, its freedom, and within the slogan of Hennesy.
Everything was allowed, including Zionism or the Zionists, a form of BofI.
So I'm just writing something down for myself, I suppose.
Going on from that, you know, I wanted to talk about perhaps this idea of Hoppes, I would say even Hoxha nationalism as a kind of mystical tour.
Right. And this this is what it dovetails very well with this idea of Orientalism.
I mean, you're talking about. Was it funny for an Einstein is unheard of.
Yeah, it was it was it a Jewish German Saloni who brought the Christmas tree to Austria?
Mean is quite amazing if you think about, you know, these little things.
But I suppose I want to perhaps go go further into the theme of Quent, let's say, Austrian nationalism as Oriental.
You know, that this kind of this this idea of the mixed culture, Oriental culture.
And I would say even to a certain degree, certainly when it came to the Jews,
was it from a lot of people this idea of decadence and and degenerate perhaps in kind of I would say in a good way.
But I suspect a lot of people didn't see in a good way that they had the idea of the generous generation.
I mean, that which came along with the German nationalism when there was also there's a book by Max.
No, no. I was alone in the Zionists, but it works against modern.
Not in. It didn't. It wasn't.
I mean, it was it didn't want to say that the generation in regard to.
And you said the racial mix. I don't think there is. Yeah, there was a threat.
What do you want to say? No, I said miss. I'm not racial mix, but cultural mix.
I mean, Miskell to Afghani's, perhaps nationalism is really based on, as you said it yourself on a pluralists and a mystical tour.
Look, urban Nasserism certainly wasn't. But many Austrian Jews took the German.
I mean, you know, if you talk if you if you compare let's say I mean, sort of sort of being a mother once again,
you know, mother versus say, Richard Strauss, the real Orientalists, the real degenerate was Strauss and not Mahler.
It's quite interesting, actually. Yes. And so.
Well, I don't think that the generation as a world was part of their language.
But I'm talking about if we analyse it right, I mean, I there was a reference to elitism.
Yes. On culture. The heck that does with money.
Matsubara. There was a reference to snobbism. Yeah, it is Cockcroft.
It was there and also and it took it that looks not cultural snobbism.
That was the reference to. And took account of defending herself against the dilettantism the provincials.
There was a kind of the modern often God rhetoric. You know, there was they said the generate the generation that could then.
I mean that two words different. Yeah. So decadence, I would say.
Definitely. Most definitely not. Because what is.
So what. What they tried to show you today was how many Negotiation's came into it.
It put the construction of culture on Austrian nationalism.
There was a negotiation with France. There was a negotiation. It's against Germany.
They want to or for Germany. There were several influences, coming influences.
There were negotiations with Jewish Galician Jews are going to Gachet nations within Vienna.
But in the end that they were going to the services and ask it.
So there was a I mean, I think that that consensus would only come when completely uprooted.
And I think I think they were completely rooted within Austrian culture.
You know, that any answer isn't. And here's another question.
Come up. Hold on. We just scroll down. I'm terrible at scrolling down to more questions.
Very exciting. I'm sorry. A lot of my somebodies asked. Thanks for a very interesting paper.
Could you say a little bit about Zuckerkandl later contribution? Very good question.
To founding the Salzburg Festival Music Festival. How does this fit into the bigger claims about the expression of Austrian cultural nationalism?
OK. So if my my friend and colleague Lisa Silverman is with us, you're laughing.
She would have a good answer for it because she has a brilliant chapter in her book, Becoming Austrian Some Day on the the FSB.
This week says Spieler comes up there in 1919 and it was a negotiation of Hugel from Hoffman, Stulen, Max Reinhold.
Both of them leading football person at this point in.
And it was about the crises at the end of World War Doumbia speaking about the bankrupt the nation.
I mean, from the big empire that came from the smaller bombs.
And here they sat negotiating and completely I mean, if speak about a serious if negotiations,
I think the main negotiation in the South was with the Catholic system.
Yet the run up there are new negotiations and then is still an attempt to.
Revive cultural, also nationalism, but feel new in the wood in the Austrian territory.
The new state. They were new negotiations also.
As my country, just the. Do you mean be part of the new product producing new Austrian nationalism?
As a Jew and how they negotiated and so starts with a fresh feeling.
And yet the man from Hoffman started with Max Vidal with all the romanticism and the pathetic element of the play itself.
It's a lot about coming to terms within the Austrian state, creating a new Usted nationalist base and come up with the Catholic system,
the Catholic background of the state, so and so the candle continues to negotiate with France.
I mean, she's translating played right this from France and she's supporting it as if she supported Viennese modernism interviews.
And so so you mentioned Lisa Silverman, who is, in fact, asked the next question to Lisa.
Welcome. Fascinating talk.
Do you think that the influence of Zionist iconography on Austrian modernism provided a way for Austrian due to support Zionism on one hand?
Very good question. Or but remain Austrian nationalists on the other, or were these two nationalisms not difficult to reconcile?
It's a really great question. This is OK. I think it is OK itself.
I definitely think I, I definitely think it within itself of it.
If that it was a consent, it was it wasn't reconciliation up itself proved that there was a conciliation.
I think it could come to us. Yeah.
It's very interesting about how. I mean, a question would be how took was to become aware that Zionism is inflicted.
I think the and his modernism was she would have preferred to leave it open for everyone.
Yeah. And Zionism would have been the kind of case. Yeah.
Taking it for the Jews not to be associated with a certain political party if the Jews, and especially she did it,
that she would never have accepted the idea that the that they support to return to Palestine.
It's designed with what? While she's conscious about this, I think she was to a certain degree.
She didn't mention her Jewish ID, not in her memoirs.
In her writings, she fights against anti-Semitism directly, but not as a Jew, as an Austrian nationalist.
Now, when she defence, say, at this next US Professor Bannerjee, she speaks about the husband Walson,
all the anti-Semitic, xenophobic and cheat sheet she has at the park.
But she tells the path that an Austrian nationalist what she calls to accept the deletion Jewish in Vienna.
She speaks as imposture nationalist. Yeah.
So if you speak about the idea of silk account that first Austrian then religious Zionism perhaps would have
been the kind of an acceptance of coming to terms with the Jewish and those who were around in the interests.
If I may answer to this. Yeah. Yeah, OK. And Louise Hectors asked, were there also.
Very good question. Were there also prominent women in Zuckerkandl Salon? What about Alma Mueller?
Is the Louise. You've kind of kind of read my mind.
I've kind of got Almaz Diaries and everything, but maybe a little over two, Illana, maybe few who give us a more more comprehensive.
And you see both Louise and Lisa, civil affairs colleagues in they herald an earlier version of this paper from which I thank them for their patience.
Their woman in took a candle. Salone. I think.
She was in contact with this woman outside Austria, cooperating with them in different ways.
But she never she had Albermarle of them.
But my mother was the kind of an orchestration of the shooting of the matchmaking between my Mahler and push them milah.
She amongst the woman artists, I don't think she would ever acknowledge.
But someone asked her 1990.
No way. I'm sorry, Louise. I'm not asking and answering this directly, but someone asked a nice no wait.
A woman, the Jewish journalist for an interview and then the interview.
She refers to her father, who going to be checking to see if they introduced it to the OP.
And did you stick to politics and the journalism of her father and her father and took a kind of gets the same old father and dad,
the Jewish woman journalist, this. So are you asking me so are you not a feminist?
Yeah. I mean, you have achieved so much. How would you identify yourself and and took a canvas?
Well, I'm not a feminist, but I do believe that woman has to have to play a central role in the culture.
And I think that they are the movers and shakers. So I think in many ways, yeah.
Perhaps you didn't want the competition with other women. I mean, she knew a block by watching you.
I'm leshin you many other Solemnis, but she'd never granted them an active role in shaping culture and shaping Austrian cultural Austrian nationalism.
So I wonder if the exception would be the singers.
I mean, Bar Marie done it for Miltenberger, for example, who is Maltese ex-girlfriend, but also the big star.
Right. This is the one place where women really did, you know, bye bye bye bye.
By dint of casting, perhaps only. But but I mean, they really did share equal footing with with their male counterparts.
Well, yes, a woman on over that necessity was not only inclusive for other ethnicities and nationalities.
There were many women both in the gazump swath of the society.
There were many woman artists involved, many leading woman artists, and there were many patrons involved.
And there were many collaborations like, for example, Sophie Lilies around.
She has been working on that about the philanthropic work that took a candan with the
with the settlement for a social work institute and the author calling with Adult Woman.
So they will work in devil raising money constantly for modernism and for social work.
And so a woman will part of the statement.
This was then the network, the woman network that we're working behind the scenes and I outside of university,
which is perhaps more Xanthi, is very important. This a long slog.
Yeah. I'm so, so sorry, Ilana.
I don't mean to interrupt. So Stephen Bella, who is quite amazing, this Crusties Q&A, a chat is full of amazing stories of the period.
I'm just blown away by this.
I'm gonna say, Stephen Bella asks, how did Hoppes piggery mentalism, the balladeers, roofs, for example, the connexion to Byzantium,
the gold leaf, the kip foubert that the Moorish architecture play into the Jewish embrace at times of an Oriental identity.
And if I could just add to that, that's kind of what I was getting up before. I mean, think of Richard Strauss's Salome, which is it's a Jewish opera.
You know, it's quite droughts in spite of it. And also it kind of in terms of the harmony, harmonic language he uses very Orientalists.
So if you want to put it that way. So sorry. So Steve didn't mean to. I'm very happy to ask this because I think he wrote a very good essay in design.
His own design. Yeah. And is it actually teaching about the Jews in Orientalism?
And he made the argument there about the Ansen ism as an inclusive, optimistic language.
So it's very important that Steven Miller asked this question. This talk of giving out.
So this is goes back to Steven Bennett's argument about Jews and Orientalism in design.
But I look at what? I'm right now.
Spot that that was not presented in Stephen's essay about their relationship, desire and Nelson Mandela.
And very important how important it was to took a time to build a culture of austere nationalism.
But what Stephen Nela in his article refers also to the Far East refers to Orientalism as an open as an open language.
She floated Far East. An Egyptian coming to terms with different views is part.
This is part of the talk. I didn't present today. They there's a whole plot that is originates relates.
Also today, idea of a Japanese term in Vienna and Zuckerkandl in Japanese and then the collection
of a husband of Japanese imperfective took a candle to her brother in law.
This is something that was part of it, but it is less. I think if you come back to Stephen's argument about that Orientalism and just promoting
Orientalism wants an inclusive language of the other and that it fits very well.
I think it was the language of the ad that's an integral part of the construction of cultural Austrian nationalism.
The far eastern references comes up. And I didn't think to that today very, very strongly in the design and also in music, if I might, I'd say so.
Almaz Elmas recollection of her first meeting of Gustaaf Mueller and Zuckerkandl was
their first discussion was about the quality of of the of the of the Debro on Korea,
the bride from Korea, the bride of Korea.
That's a ballet that was premiered in 1897, written by Yoseph Buyer, and was given for the last time, possibly with good reason in 1981.
Right. So it's so great. There's one another question here, possibly our penultimate question.
So that was Berta and Krakoff and was Polish Malcom's based on her travels.
If that it was interactive and and was polished, Moul Kunst based on my votes.
OK. Definitely. As I said, not before, she has very good to say, at least the essays that I've read about Polish national art.
And she makes say, as she is, she's very serious when she writes she is she research.
She thinks that several names of the Polish artists. And she walks them through.
She works in fruit and shakes it. She sells the development.
That is the development. And she shows that the international is the identification of the Polish.
They Steffensen's if she was in crack of this, I don't know.
I can't answer. But I'm sure she had she must have known from a close, close relationship that the modern art scene is unfolding because she's there.
She appreciates it a lot. Thanks, Alina.
I hope this ya'akov any cross it. If not, I was going to ask the final question if that's okay.
We have a question. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Yeah.
Scroll down, Peter. It's going to get after unu yourself. It's the second most popular.
Oh so. So just so Lilly just says thank you for your thought-Provoking lecture.
And so, Alana, you talked about the Salzburg Festival. Really sorry.
Yeah. Okay. You talked about the beginning of the Salzburg Festival with Hoffman Stalin's in 1919.
In point of fact, I mean, stuff had been going on in Salzburg the decade before and Malians us but I suppose 1919 or 1918 is important for many
and a good way to end this discussion because that really spells the end of this type of Austrian Hapsburg nationalism.
So maybe you could just maybe that's why that took place. Did you say 1918, the end?
Well, the end of the Hapsburgs, really. I mean, I suppose that's that was my reasoning, right?
Yeah. With what? That would have worked go. I mean, with the with the republic.
I mean, things do change. There is a change in the current career of took it comes in in 1918,
she uses a political connexion with France and she made interviews with politicians
in England and in France and other things to try and make a kind of fire power,
a little diplomatic relations for Austria.
Yes. So she asked them. So do you support Austria to try and negotiate a better deal for Austria and to be less revengeful left the world?
Well, when she interviewed several people and she starts them supporting the it sounds bigger fish,
Feedly, it's still I think that you just want points, you know, the lovers of the case.
There is one view of it. Says this is not the Zionist painting.
But it's a romantic thing, I think, a universal theme. But it's from a Jewish perspective.
And I think the same goes to that. She was not a Zionist and she was not a party for Jews exclusively.
But many of her dealings with her negotiations about modern art before 1918 and after 1918 represented a Jewish perspective,
a distinct Jewish perspective in this regard.
The modern, often inclusive of everybody will feel positively.
This was her humble to the power in the city.
Ilana, I mean, I think I can think of no better way to end this seminar.
Beforehand, I suppose we will be back next term for the Israel Studies Seminar and the reconsidering early Jewish Novelist Ideology Seminar.
I mean, for anyone who's interested, please do send an email to myself or Ya'akov and we'll get you on the list.
I suppose the term card will be forthcoming in a few weeks over the break.
I want to thank everyone for coming both to talk to both of these seminars throughout the term.
In spite of all the technical mishaps we've had and kind of we we've managed to come, you know, all's well that ends well, I suppose.
I suppose that's it. Alina, I just wanted to thank you very, very much indeed for a really, really interesting fact from you.
Thank you. Thank you so much. All right, there we go.