1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:08,250 Right on the sorry. Good afternoon, welcome, everybody. I'm delighted to present to you a speaker today, Doctor, 2 00:00:08,250 --> 00:00:16,530 and that Horn was a lecturer in international relations of the Middle East at the University of Harlingen in the Netherlands, 3 00:00:16,530 --> 00:00:23,930 and a fellow, an associate researcher at Peace Research Institute in Frankfurt. 4 00:00:23,930 --> 00:00:24,690 Dr. Brown, 5 00:00:24,690 --> 00:00:36,150 a historian of international relations specialising in the Cold War in the Middle East and his main areas of interest are Israel's diplomatic history, 6 00:00:36,150 --> 00:00:43,530 Turkey's foreign policy, intelligence, history, counter-terrorism, oral history theory and practise Jewish trust, 7 00:00:43,530 --> 00:00:48,510 transnationalism and the memory of the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide, 8 00:00:48,510 --> 00:00:54,870 which will be the topic of the talk today from his forthcoming book with Edinburgh University Press Office, 9 00:00:54,870 --> 00:01:01,320 a critical re-examination of Israel's relationship with Turkey in the last decade of the Cold War. 10 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:06,270 The book reveals the complicated and often contradictory process of managing the 11 00:01:06,270 --> 00:01:11,220 legacies of the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust in international relations. 12 00:01:11,220 --> 00:01:16,140 And Dr. Banahan is also involved in research led public engagement. 13 00:01:16,140 --> 00:01:25,350 And he regularly writes essays on current affairs for Newsweek, The Conversation, The Jerusalem Post, Haaretz and the National Interest. 14 00:01:25,350 --> 00:01:32,700 And the title of the talk today is If We Stop the Supporting Denial, Israel's Foreign Policy and the Armenian Genocide. 15 00:01:32,700 --> 00:01:38,330 Thank you all for coming. Thank you very much for having me. First of all, thanks a lot for the kind introduction. 16 00:01:38,330 --> 00:01:42,810 I'm so happy to be here in the wrong this in person because. 17 00:01:42,810 --> 00:01:52,440 Yeah, I mean, it's quite obvious why. So what I'd like to do is, first of all, start with the layout of today's talk. 18 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:57,120 I want to introduce the structure of a stock. Basically, in the first part, 19 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:08,580 I'm going to introduce to sort of a baseline that we can all come out for and discuss a little bit the conceptual recognition of genocide. 20 00:02:08,580 --> 00:02:16,860 What's the difference between parliamentary and governmental recognition and and how it actually applies to the state of Israel? 21 00:02:16,860 --> 00:02:28,470 And in the second part, which will be more umbilical, I will discuss how it all started, how it all began in the late 70s and 80s. 22 00:02:28,470 --> 00:02:39,390 So basically, this is the the layout I want to proceed with also my argument for today, and it consists of two pillars, actually. 23 00:02:39,390 --> 00:02:45,070 So first of all, I'm arguing what I'm saying now from a historical perspective. 24 00:02:45,070 --> 00:02:53,010 And I want to say that Israel's foreign policy on the Armenian genocide was shaped by decisions taken in the 90s, 25 00:02:53,010 --> 00:02:57,000 but they crystallised already two decades earlier. 26 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:09,000 OK, and they're the two pillars of this argument is that particularly after Israel lost Iran after the 1979 revolution, 27 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,770 they put all their pressure, all the emphasis on the relations with Turkey of. 28 00:03:13,770 --> 00:03:18,510 I will also explain why. Why is that so important? 29 00:03:18,510 --> 00:03:27,520 And the contested memories of the Armenian genocide, which during the 70s emerged to international relations, then suddenly appeared there. 30 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,300 Were actually the right component at the right time. 31 00:03:31,300 --> 00:03:40,270 OK, what they want to say before I start to talk about Israeli foreign policy on the Armenian genocide, 32 00:03:40,270 --> 00:03:45,010 I want to say first that our starting point is what happened in 1915. 33 00:03:45,010 --> 00:03:53,030 OK, it's very important to start on this because. Yeah, I mean, some people have different assumptions or different understandings of the events. 34 00:03:53,030 --> 00:04:09,370 So basically, like between 1915 in 1923, close to one point five million Armenians were exterminated by the anthrax regime during the First World War. 35 00:04:09,370 --> 00:04:13,990 And this is our premise. This is the starting point of the talk. 36 00:04:13,990 --> 00:04:22,990 It's very important to say that right now because later on we have a different narrative coming to Turkey and talk is diplomats. 37 00:04:22,990 --> 00:04:28,120 And it's really important to mention that to underline this point, 38 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:36,160 I would also like to say additional point I want to make additional point about is that some of you probably know a few stuff about the topic, 39 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:41,980 know a few angles about the topic. I will not be able to discuss all of them today in 45 minutes. 40 00:04:41,980 --> 00:04:48,760 What I will try to do is basically discuss a few points and then specifically what 41 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:54,850 I argued and give a few emphasis on the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 42 00:04:54,850 --> 00:05:00,150 engagement with government in general. OK. 43 00:05:00,150 --> 00:05:10,920 So we have a search for problem, so which is why Israel doesn't recognise the Armenian genocide, and it's puzzling because there's a few yeah, 44 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,520 quite the conventional wisdom points about this, 45 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:23,790 that the Israeli relations with Turkey are too important or Jews and Armenians are natural allies because they are both victims of genocide. 46 00:05:23,790 --> 00:05:27,330 And Israel prefers Azerbaijan over the Armenians and so on. 47 00:05:27,330 --> 00:05:37,650 But this is I think that this is not helping us to actually approach the problem and to help us do that. 48 00:05:37,650 --> 00:05:46,110 I want to actually present here to two questions. What the term recognition, the recognition of the general managers that actually means, OK, 49 00:05:46,110 --> 00:05:55,270 we need to figure out what it means exactly and which of these institutions refuse to recognise the Armenian genocide and why. 50 00:05:55,270 --> 00:06:00,000 OK, so we need the conceptual clarity here. 51 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:08,340 So scholars for different disciplines actually debating about the term recognition, what it means, sectarianism. 52 00:06:08,340 --> 00:06:14,220 There's so many definitions to terrorism as much as to genocide and also to recognition. 53 00:06:14,220 --> 00:06:24,360 But most of them actually agree that it's a vital human need and it's very important emotionally and collectively 54 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:33,010 for groups of people to put certain history will be acknowledged in applying this to the Armenian genocide. 55 00:06:33,010 --> 00:06:37,200 It means that Armenians in the diaspora, especially in the diaspora, 56 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:45,060 want that the events of 1915 will be recognised by countries, by institutions as genocide. 57 00:06:45,060 --> 00:06:53,070 OK, and they will also combat denialism, just like we are familiar with it for Holocaust denial, 58 00:06:53,070 --> 00:07:00,300 the way in which Jews and Israeli Jews, Jews all over the world combat the Holocaust. 59 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:08,130 OK, and here we have also a very good example. If we look at the wording of the Armenian genocide resolution, 60 00:07:08,130 --> 00:07:18,460 which was recognised in the American Congress both by the House of Representatives and the Senate in 2010 to 2019. 61 00:07:18,460 --> 00:07:24,600 OK, so I think it's very clear. Let's move forward. 62 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:36,930 All right. So what's the tension? Actually, legislators give voice to a broader range of values, norms and ethics, and they try to protect minorities. 63 00:07:36,930 --> 00:07:48,790 Right. For this reason, recognition could cause tension between the country's legislative and executive. 64 00:07:48,790 --> 00:07:52,570 And why government actually oppose recognition of the Armenian genocide? 65 00:07:52,570 --> 00:08:02,730 Well, we are responsible for so many important things, for example, and it could cause grave harm to our national interest. 66 00:08:02,730 --> 00:08:06,760 It could, of course, deteriorate the relations with Ankara immediately. 67 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:17,350 It could draw a lot of economic and it could basically harm relations with Turkey, definitely for the short term, also maybe for the longer term. 68 00:08:17,350 --> 00:08:27,820 So as a result, governments don't really interested in recognising the Armenian genocide and those interests clash between the parliaments. 69 00:08:27,820 --> 00:08:37,270 And it's not specifically about the clash between those two two views of recognising the Armenian genocide. 70 00:08:37,270 --> 00:08:40,600 All right. So how does this apply on Israel? 71 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:48,260 Well, the Israeli consecutive governments, which it's quite understandable if we apply this concept why they don't want to recognise the genocide, 72 00:08:48,260 --> 00:08:55,600 OK, they have even though they are the state of Israel is built on the ashes of the Holocaust. 73 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:07,780 And even though it could actually cause a little bit of harm or some harm to Israel, combat against anti-Semitism and the Holocaust denial, 74 00:09:07,780 --> 00:09:14,170 we have clear interest not to do this in specific periods of the relations with Turkey. 75 00:09:14,170 --> 00:09:16,960 However, yeah, theoretically speaking, 76 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:26,690 the Knesset should do that because these are two separate institutions and two separate interests based on this conceptual framework. 77 00:09:26,690 --> 00:09:36,590 OK, so they represent a broader range of views, cultures and standpoints within the Israeli society. 78 00:09:36,590 --> 00:09:40,690 All right. 79 00:09:40,690 --> 00:09:50,470 What I would like to offer is a conceptual framework to examine the questions which I just presented and look at them from three different periods, 80 00:09:50,470 --> 00:10:00,430 consecutive but different periods, each of which has its own specific events, interest factors and so on. 81 00:10:00,430 --> 00:10:06,250 The first period is the formative years of the late Cold War with Cold War dynamics in the Middle East. 82 00:10:06,250 --> 00:10:11,020 The second period is the post-Cold War period. 83 00:10:11,020 --> 00:10:14,680 And I called the first period as the formative years, which I mentioned before. 84 00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:25,300 And the second is the policy, because this is when decision makers actually sat down and said we should protect Turkey's narrative for this. 85 00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:31,780 And these reasons back in the first period will actually no real discussions about the policy. 86 00:10:31,780 --> 00:10:37,840 Everything was done quite far away from Israel. And there will be different views about this policy. 87 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:44,260 And I will elaborate on that a little bit later today. Third period comes form. 88 00:10:44,260 --> 00:10:49,420 And once the administration when the other one came to office and I called them, 89 00:10:49,420 --> 00:10:52,780 they contested this because there were so many clashes between Israel and Turkey, 90 00:10:52,780 --> 00:11:00,520 so many different situations, or because, well, Israel could easily press the button, 91 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,300 the parliament could press the button and it just pursuit of them. 92 00:11:04,300 --> 00:11:15,550 So it's very interesting to know why. So let me give you a really broad overview about what happened in each of those periods. 93 00:11:15,550 --> 00:11:19,930 Well, in the late Cold War period, in the formative years, 94 00:11:19,930 --> 00:11:28,210 we have a Romanian bellmen in their spine launching an international campaign to recognise the Armenian genocide. 95 00:11:28,210 --> 00:11:33,520 I will break it down a little bit later, what it means. 96 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:41,680 And we have a very complex political situation in the Middle East with the 1979 Iranian revolution, 97 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:48,520 the peace accord between Israel and Egypt and the military coup in Turkey in 1980. 98 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:54,490 So we have almost two years that a lot of things happening in the background of all of this. 99 00:11:54,490 --> 00:12:05,590 It actually started a little bit earlier. There are many the small campaign started in the mid 70s, but it's quite short, intense period. 100 00:12:05,590 --> 00:12:10,820 If we look at the second period, look, there's so many different factors happening here. 101 00:12:10,820 --> 00:12:15,130 We have the establishment of the Republic of Armenia. 102 00:12:15,130 --> 00:12:18,880 We have the above conflict with Israel began to emerge. 103 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:24,760 Also, Israel has some interest in that conflict, but it's beyond our conversation today. 104 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,480 I'm just giving you a short bullet point list of things. 105 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:34,450 And the Knesset, this is very important for our adopted the Knesset tried to pass the first, 106 00:12:34,450 --> 00:12:38,920 I'm sorry, parliamentary bill on the Armenian genocide in 1989. 107 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:45,910 Specifically, it was Meretz Party, a left wing Liberal Party, a very small party. 108 00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:50,350 And then we have also in the south a little bit later in the early 90s, 109 00:12:50,350 --> 00:13:01,510 the Israeli-Palestinian conflict seems to be on the right path of resolution with the Madrid conference in 1991 and the Oslo Accords in 1993, 110 00:13:01,510 --> 00:13:06,520 which helped a lot for talking to us alter the relations with Israel. 111 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:11,200 And and that's, of course, very important to our topic. 112 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:17,590 And I will get to it first. All right. Let's be let's just look at this. 113 00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:27,190 So Azerbaijan become a very important Israeli ally and trading in oil between Israel and Azerbaijan and the Mavi Marmara, 114 00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:36,490 which is also very familiar event of 2010, the IDF operations in Gaza and the clashes with Hamas. 115 00:13:36,490 --> 00:13:39,970 And, of course, it unfolds to an old one. 116 00:13:39,970 --> 00:13:47,110 And then Netanyahu, very harsh rhetoric right and left you then to go back to war. 117 00:13:47,110 --> 00:13:56,190 And with all during all this period the uniqueness of the Holocaust and ethno nationalist involvement of Netanyahu, 118 00:13:56,190 --> 00:14:04,750 the government administration is very let's say it's very, uh, it's right there. 119 00:14:04,750 --> 00:14:09,850 It's very evident, OK. 120 00:14:09,850 --> 00:14:21,040 So what I would like to do now is take these background aside for a minute and just focus on the first period, OK, actually the formative years, 121 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:30,490 if we want to discuss this topic later on in the more elaborated and integrated way, we need to understand, first of all, what happened here. 122 00:14:30,490 --> 00:14:35,290 And I would also like to do is focus on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and not on the parliament. 123 00:14:35,290 --> 00:14:41,710 OK, so let's focus on the formative years and see what happens of that. 124 00:14:41,710 --> 00:14:48,140 So far, everyone's following an economic sense. OK. 125 00:14:48,140 --> 00:14:56,720 All right, so Albanians, the Albanians, after the genocide of 1915, 1923, 126 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:02,150 spread around the globe, creating themselves different communities you can see in the map. 127 00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:09,140 I mean, it's quite obvious we are the main centres of how many invest more in the survivors of 128 00:15:09,140 --> 00:15:15,230 the genocide who sought to basically start their life in a different part of the world, 129 00:15:15,230 --> 00:15:19,760 will silence the first generation of the survivors and the second generation. 130 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:24,440 The offspring will silent about the trauma, the suppressed trauma of their parents. 131 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,250 And they didn't want to talk about the genocide. 132 00:15:26,250 --> 00:15:37,820 They could also not commemorated as, oh, let's put it this way, they could not really commemorate the Armenian genocide as a global memory. 133 00:15:37,820 --> 00:15:43,010 They could just commemorate the Armenian genocide privately in very small communities. 134 00:15:43,010 --> 00:15:49,770 And of course, it varies from community to community where. 135 00:15:49,770 --> 00:16:00,620 Now. Form nineteen seventy two, three, four, five onwards, 136 00:16:00,620 --> 00:16:10,280 we see the third generation emerging and very much influence form the Palestinian Liberation Organisation 137 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:17,840 and the armed struggle of the Fatah and the Popular Front of the Liberation of Palestine and of course, 138 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:27,140 the 1972 Olympic Games. With the murder of 11 Israeli athletes, it influenced the untold in the Middle East. 139 00:16:27,140 --> 00:16:33,320 And we want to actually achieve the same kind of momentum against Turkey. 140 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:40,760 They were inspired by the achievements of the PLO and other Palestinian organisations with the armed struggle against Israel. 141 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,900 They want to achieve the same the same goals. 142 00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:59,210 So the defeat of terrorism basically looks at and I think the primetime of the 1972 Olympics is the best example of how the world stops. 143 00:16:59,210 --> 00:17:09,050 And in the old world, where we have only television and radio, people stop doing anything they they do and just look at television, they were amazed. 144 00:17:09,050 --> 00:17:14,750 And suddenly the Palestinians could actually draw so much attention to that cause they get exposed, 145 00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:22,280 not just L.A., but many other minority groups, ethnic groups that had the same aspirations. 146 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:30,380 Um, so it's important to mention in the context of the Palestinians that there are many and see Khatami for the liberation of Armenia, 147 00:17:30,380 --> 00:17:45,800 a Sulla and which operated slightly together with the Palestinians, but basically were inspired by those Palestinians and for those reasons. 148 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:56,570 So we can actually summarise it into the three R's, OK, they actually want to force Turkey to recognise Armenian genocide. 149 00:17:56,570 --> 00:18:06,380 It's very important. The recognition which which I just mentioned at the beginning, um, reparations like Holocaust restitution form. 150 00:18:06,380 --> 00:18:16,040 It was it was Germany reparations of Turkey for the genocide and restoration of the historical homeland in eastern Anatolia. 151 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:24,320 These were the three Rs. But they also had, um, and I'll get to it very soon. 152 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:30,440 We also had an imperialist rageous point of view of terrorism. 153 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:35,180 They want to it was actually a cultural phenomenon, OK? They want to beat imperialism. 154 00:18:35,180 --> 00:18:47,840 They want to beat the Americans and therefore they in between 1973, nineteen eighty five, a son assassinated approximately 60 Turkish diplomats. 155 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:55,910 It's contested whether this number is accurate, but approximately 60 and Turkish diplomats and it's quite a lot. 156 00:18:55,910 --> 00:18:59,780 And the family members. So it's not it's not just the diplomats themselves. 157 00:18:59,780 --> 00:19:06,170 Some of them were walking in the street with the children or the wife and both were assassinated, all the whole family. 158 00:19:06,170 --> 00:19:15,860 Think about that. And it mainly happened in Western countries. So and there were consequences to that, which I'm going to discuss in the next one. 159 00:19:15,860 --> 00:19:23,390 OK, so this was not just promoting the three Rs was also to promote the anti-Western agenda. 160 00:19:23,390 --> 00:19:31,330 OK, I'm completely Sankei Westrick. 161 00:19:31,330 --> 00:19:37,000 So. These these were familiar photos from the late 70s and 80s. 162 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:49,280 Every month, two months, three months, a very big funeral in Turkey. 163 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:59,450 That looks like that I mean, it's very, very often these images were very familiar to many and many people within in Turkey back in the time, 164 00:19:59,450 --> 00:20:04,760 and the Turkish newspapers look just like that back in those years. 165 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:15,380 And it caused a lot of concern in Turkey. So Turkey suddenly needs to explain to the world what what's happening here, 166 00:20:15,380 --> 00:20:28,100 why so many Turkish diplomats being assassinated and why it's so important, why those countries, the four countries need to protect Turkish diplomats. 167 00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:31,790 So it's not just a Turkish affair. It's not just the Turkish problem. 168 00:20:31,790 --> 00:20:37,070 It's also the host country problem to protect those Turkish demands. 169 00:20:37,070 --> 00:20:48,110 They also had to explain the world what happened in 1915 and to create the sort of response will calculate the response to the events of 1915. 170 00:20:48,110 --> 00:20:55,700 They also building on the cooperation with the hosting country with regards to counterterrorism initiatives. 171 00:20:55,700 --> 00:21:02,060 OK, the Israeli diplomats recognise that very well, 172 00:21:02,060 --> 00:21:11,390 and they built a whole thesis based on that those needs, specifically the counterterrorism alliance, OK, 173 00:21:11,390 --> 00:21:16,640 to provide Turkey a sort of a possibility to align with Israel, 174 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:22,940 encountered the Palestinian terrorism of the time, which was a major problem for Israel back in those years. 175 00:21:22,940 --> 00:21:31,800 And especially, of course, the first Lebanon war is a prominent example of that problem. 176 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:42,360 So all of a sudden, we have two narratives of the 15, we have the Armenian genocide and we have the Armenian question, 177 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:49,290 Turkey asked the minister of foreign affairs, a veteran diplomat, 178 00:21:49,290 --> 00:21:57,090 to become suddenly scholars and to retrieve or to at least argue that they retrieved documents 179 00:21:57,090 --> 00:22:03,090 from the Ottoman archives and to argue that what happened in 1915 was not a genocide at all. 180 00:22:03,090 --> 00:22:10,830 It's a question, how many Americans were killed? How did they actually how did they find themselves in the desert and so on? 181 00:22:10,830 --> 00:22:15,090 I'm not getting into those details because they not really what matters is what matters, 182 00:22:15,090 --> 00:22:23,370 that we suddenly have two accounts of the same events and we have a diaspora community that for one thing, 183 00:22:23,370 --> 00:22:34,620 and they are not gathered under a nation state. Yet we don't have the Republic of Armenia and we have a quite strong country member, 184 00:22:34,620 --> 00:22:42,930 a NATO member with a lot of good allies in the West, some of which are very critical of Turkey. 185 00:22:42,930 --> 00:22:48,570 But still, Turkey was very important to the group, an ally of the West. 186 00:22:48,570 --> 00:22:53,580 And suddenly we have a totally different setting, OK? 187 00:22:53,580 --> 00:23:03,210 And it was it's very important to also mention here that the effects on Turkish diplomats and the attempt 188 00:23:03,210 --> 00:23:10,590 to force Turkey to recognise them and address it was not just an act that operate the pressure on Turkey. 189 00:23:10,590 --> 00:23:20,700 It was a pressure on Turkish identity, because since nineteen twenty three, since the Republic of Turkey was founded by the Kemal Ataturk, 190 00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:31,860 very important part of Turkish identity was based on the notion that the Armenian genocide never happened and denying it in history, 191 00:23:31,860 --> 00:23:39,400 curriculum, books and so on and so forth was very important, integral part of the identity. 192 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:51,560 OK, so it was not just an attack on Turkey because the text on the Mustafa Kemal secular heritage, OK. 193 00:23:51,560 --> 00:24:02,740 Good. So we have those veteran diplomats who right at the United Historiography and we 194 00:24:02,740 --> 00:24:08,320 have a campaign in international forums that argue against the Armenian genocide 195 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:13,690 and the alleged Armenian massacre in Mexico is very important term because Israeli 196 00:24:13,690 --> 00:24:19,960 diplomats will embrace this term and will never use the word G and the G word, 197 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:25,810 and they will try to stick to the Armenian massacre. And that's very important. 198 00:24:25,810 --> 00:24:34,270 And we have a disputed history, as we mentioned. OK, now we are shifting the focus to Israel because after this very important background, 199 00:24:34,270 --> 00:24:36,610 we can look at Israel a little bit and understand what happened, 200 00:24:36,610 --> 00:24:45,080 what drove Israel and the Israeli foreign ministry to support the Turkish account of 1950. 201 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:51,500 This guy this gentleman over here that we've been going on for as prime minister of Israel was very much in 202 00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:59,540 favour of the periphery doctrine in order to create a sort of a doctrine of foreign relations for Israel. 203 00:24:59,540 --> 00:25:11,810 He believed that Israel needs to break the hostility in the Middle East and try to create the alliance with other non Arab Muslim countries. 204 00:25:11,810 --> 00:25:24,490 So if you look at the. The map of the Middle East, because it's Egypt, Jordan and Syria, of course, Iraq, we have two very big, 205 00:25:24,490 --> 00:25:28,630 large Muslim countries in the region on the external perimeter of the Middle East. 206 00:25:28,630 --> 00:25:38,710 We have Turkey and Iran. And although no one was also on the Sudan and Ethiopia, we are focussing on Iran and Turkey, 207 00:25:38,710 --> 00:25:43,420 those who are also a very important American ally in the Middle East. 208 00:25:43,420 --> 00:25:50,920 So together with Israel, we have a very important right triangle here and focussing on just one moment on Turkey. 209 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,530 And it's not only Iran. 210 00:25:53,530 --> 00:26:06,250 Iran under the Shah and the relations with Israel were based on an intelligence sharing and also training of the Shah's secret police by the Mossad. 211 00:26:06,250 --> 00:26:11,440 And it was a very important listening post to the Arab world, of course. 212 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:25,000 And after 1967, we have very Ashqelon oil pipeline and we are talking about a major investment of almost three decades in Iran, very important. 213 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,680 And it was a very important pillar of Israel's foreign policy in the region. 214 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:38,320 And generally speaking, there was a lot of investment in the relations with the Shah and the Israelis to send their best, 215 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:44,500 best trained diplomats to those countries, especially to Iran, because of the sensitivity, 216 00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:56,690 because of the importance of the relations within which and after in the late 70s become taking a totally different path. 217 00:26:56,690 --> 00:27:08,500 OK, so the late corbo in the Middle East. We certainly have a turning point, a very important turning point. 218 00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:12,880 Doing most of the 70s, we have called alliance between Israel and Turkey, 219 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:22,660 mainly because was Islamic leaders in Turkish politics that were dominating and trying to construct 220 00:27:22,660 --> 00:27:30,970 hawkish foreign policy towards an anti-Western and Islamic position very close to what happened in Iran. 221 00:27:30,970 --> 00:27:38,140 And then we have in 1979, Islamic revolution in Iraq. So this. 222 00:27:38,140 --> 00:27:46,090 These events are very important because all this this dynamic is very important to our story, because this is where the Armenian genocide, 223 00:27:46,090 --> 00:27:55,240 which I just discussed, comes as a valuable a valuable component to 1979 was a defining moment in the Middle East. 224 00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:02,200 If we look now in the discussions of what's going on in the Middle East, it's all about Iran, it's all about the nuclear nuclear plan, 225 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,760 and it's all about making sure that Iran is not the danger to the middle, 226 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:12,760 to the security of the Middle East, but maybe also to the security of lot of the world. 227 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:22,420 Right. It was a defining moment because it was also there was a sort of a domino effect on what happens in Turkey. 228 00:28:22,420 --> 00:28:28,150 Right. Which I just mentioned, those Islamic factions in the in Turkey. 229 00:28:28,150 --> 00:28:33,600 And we have the 19, we call it, in the literature of the 1979 moment. 230 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:44,710 OK, so together with Turkey, Iran had a major role in the regional stability of the Middle East, not only for Israel, but also to the Americans. 231 00:28:44,710 --> 00:28:52,120 And Israel lost three decades of massive investment in Iran under the Shah, which went down the drain in 1979. 232 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:58,420 So Israel was making sure that the image we see here. 233 00:28:58,420 --> 00:29:05,280 Will not continue to an Islamic revolution in Turkey as well. 234 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:14,310 So Israel and Israeli diplomats were anxious for the positive momentum of a revolution ending momentum in the 235 00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:23,910 Middle East and the fact that both Iran and Turkey could be we can say goodbye to them for quite some time. 236 00:29:23,910 --> 00:29:29,400 And Turkey suddenly become an important ally in the Middle East to Israel's most 237 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:34,590 strategic ally and a vital country to the security of Israel in the Cold War, 238 00:29:34,590 --> 00:29:43,120 in the Middle East. Luckily, luckily. 239 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:49,390 The 12th of September, 1980 was a turning point in terms of what happens in Turkey. 240 00:29:49,390 --> 00:29:57,570 The military couldn't stop the chaos, stopped the revolutionary momentum and. 241 00:29:57,570 --> 00:30:00,930 Created a sort of a different reality, 242 00:30:00,930 --> 00:30:17,190 but they stopped the Islamic revolutionary momentum and they established a new government led by General Honore of one and at least this well, 243 00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:22,630 let's say very negative momentum from his only point of view stopped. 244 00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:27,960 OK, Turkey did not become a second Iran. That's for sure. 245 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:37,530 But for Israel, it's from an Israeli standpoint, even though the talk is the military elite were quite, let's say, 246 00:30:37,530 --> 00:30:46,720 neutral towards Israel and even potential they potentially because of strategic point of view of the military, 247 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:54,510 they were actually facing another problem, working through this energy crisis between 1978, 248 00:30:54,510 --> 00:31:05,910 in 1980 and the fact that it served to shift this a crisis, to shift focus, foreign policy, formerly neutral foreign policy. 249 00:31:05,910 --> 00:31:10,950 And even if a positive foreign policy towards the West and Israel towards an anti-Israel 250 00:31:10,950 --> 00:31:18,810 stance because of the Arab pressure will sort of give Turkey all its energy needs. 251 00:31:18,810 --> 00:31:25,410 And they demand that actually those Arab leaders to boycott Israel and Turkey had to take 252 00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:36,060 a sort of a calculated decision how to position themselves in this complex situation. 253 00:31:36,060 --> 00:31:47,010 So what they did go back to this and what they did is basically not shutting down the embassy entirely. 254 00:31:47,010 --> 00:31:52,670 They decided to demote the relation who is out to the lowest possible representation. 255 00:31:52,670 --> 00:32:00,870 They they sent the ambassadors back and put it to administrators as diplomats and 256 00:32:00,870 --> 00:32:06,660 that the people in charge of the responsible of the affairs in the in the embassy, 257 00:32:06,660 --> 00:32:12,290 but it's the lowest representation possible. So they kept something from for the future. 258 00:32:12,290 --> 00:32:20,490 They didn't have the relationship, but they could show they could wave to the Arab countries if we send an ambassador back. 259 00:32:20,490 --> 00:32:36,990 We did what you asked us to leave us alone. OK, so not only was he was the Israeli ambassador to the embassy in Ankara in those years, 260 00:32:36,990 --> 00:32:41,430 when I interviewed him, he actually discussed many other factors, 261 00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:48,720 but he mentioned how it felt to sit there and basically be able to do nothing with all this pressure coming from Jerusalem. 262 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:55,020 Do something, try to engage with them, try to make appointments, try to talk to those generals, try to do something. 263 00:32:55,020 --> 00:33:04,980 He was so frustrated he could not do anything and he did not have access to that equipment enough to the elite of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 264 00:33:04,980 --> 00:33:11,310 And he was waiting so anxiously that they would sign the bill for calling to talk about something. 265 00:33:11,310 --> 00:33:19,010 It's important because. Then Israeli minister of foreign affairs back in July. 266 00:33:19,010 --> 00:33:26,240 I understand that there's a potential here of a crisis between if we we I mean, 267 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:33,500 them would try to sell as sort of a thesis that there is a cooperation between PLO and Salah. 268 00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:41,880 Right. Then maybe they would like to come to fill it with us against this mutual connexions, 269 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:48,790 OK, mutual and the cooperation, of course, these two organisations are also different. 270 00:33:48,790 --> 00:33:52,080 And of course, to achieve. 271 00:33:52,080 --> 00:34:02,150 But they were trying to focus on the anti imperialist agenda of both organisations and the fact that they both operated from Lebanon. 272 00:34:02,150 --> 00:34:13,650 OK, that's very important. So geographically speaking, the proximity of the operations of Assad and the PLO and other organisations of 273 00:34:13,650 --> 00:34:20,220 Palestinian concessions and the fact that Beirut became the hub for southern Lebanon, 274 00:34:20,220 --> 00:34:32,290 became the hub of regional terrorism, was the mutual interest for both Israel and Turkey to cooperate on that specific and point. 275 00:34:32,290 --> 00:34:33,680 So I want to. 276 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:45,280 There's so many examples I could give you, but I decided to focus on this specific world for an Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs document, 277 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,740 which explained to Israeli people not only in Turkey, 278 00:34:50,740 --> 00:34:56,920 but also throughout Europe, how to basically sell the thesis, 279 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:06,600 how to explain to Turkish diplomats and to other diplomats how this cooperation actually works. 280 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:17,670 So they mentioned, for example, specific people, specific character with which pelota with which Israel had to engage with in the past, 281 00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:28,110 and they try to basically explain that they had to supply people, supply the revolutionary propaganda to the Armenians and inspired them. 282 00:35:28,110 --> 00:35:35,580 OK, and emphasise again that the issue of Lebanon, the importance of Lebanon, 283 00:35:35,580 --> 00:35:43,360 the geographical proximity and the fact that they were also doing some corporations for each other. 284 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:52,320 So many of them felt betrayed also and always used to do some work for PLO and vice versa. 285 00:35:52,320 --> 00:36:03,820 So that that actually emphasised the need for both Turkey and Israel to cooperate on this issue and make it as an as a mutual problem. 286 00:36:03,820 --> 00:36:23,220 OK. All right, we are moving further in 1993, the peak of our many until and actually declines, it was mainly because of this explosion in Paris, 287 00:36:23,220 --> 00:36:31,080 the Orly airport attack, which in many of the SARS attacks on Turkish diplomats or Turkish targets. 288 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:41,770 There were some casualties and by third parties, but specifically in this event, 55 people were injured. 289 00:36:41,770 --> 00:36:53,880 And that was so suddenly there was some criticism already about how justified the terrorism and objectives of ASALA. 290 00:36:53,880 --> 00:37:02,130 But still, they got quite a lot of support from government and their support for fighting an important cause, identi identity because of it. 291 00:37:02,130 --> 00:37:12,420 And that's why when it but this affair definitely and also drew a lot of criticism from Muslim countries. 292 00:37:12,420 --> 00:37:19,860 And suddenly the Armenians did not did not look so friendly and nice and cool in fighting for an important cause. 293 00:37:19,860 --> 00:37:23,940 They were actually doing quite a lot of criticism. 294 00:37:23,940 --> 00:37:36,510 And therefore, this is well, we see how the Albanian fellow is in decline and a new agenda for the commemorative agenda emerge. 295 00:37:36,510 --> 00:37:48,360 And, well, some Armenian scholars and lobbies, especially in the United States, but also in Western Europe and especially in France, for example, 296 00:37:48,360 --> 00:38:02,970 they were trying to transform this commemorative the three hours into a more traditional commemoration and death and to, for example, 297 00:38:02,970 --> 00:38:07,080 present the Armenian genocide papers in international forums, 298 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:14,320 try to explain exactly based on research what happened, what happened in 1915, for example, 299 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:25,260 they were trying to establish part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, which was just in their foundation during the early 80s. 300 00:38:25,260 --> 00:38:28,140 It was open to public in 1991, but during the 80s, 301 00:38:28,140 --> 00:38:37,080 there were a lot of discussions whether or not what should be actually there and the commemorative part of the museum, 302 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,910 how the museum should present the events of the Holocaust and also other genocides. 303 00:38:41,910 --> 00:38:50,010 The Armenians were trying to basically and enter or be part of the exhibition mentioning the Armenian genocide of 1915. 304 00:38:50,010 --> 00:38:59,310 So we see how they shift the momentum, try to shift that momentum and become more powerful at least, 305 00:38:59,310 --> 00:39:09,360 and to draw less criticism and draw less negative negative views on what happened with the terrorism period. 306 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:23,920 But they didn't succeed. Well, because. Israel was very much involved in those operations and trying to block the Armenians and for the Turks. 307 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:33,610 And this is also very important, the perspective of this whole Armenian genocide, recognition and part. 308 00:39:33,610 --> 00:39:41,230 And, of course, from the Israeli perspective, a Jewish perspective, the uniqueness of the Holocaust, 309 00:39:41,230 --> 00:39:49,870 the importance of Jewish suffering in the Holocaust was not really part of the agenda of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs back in the 80s. 310 00:39:49,870 --> 00:40:00,130 They did not discuss it amongst themselves. I mean, when I read so many documents, I didn't notice any any discussions around it. 311 00:40:00,130 --> 00:40:06,520 It was actually proposed quite a lot by Turkish diplomat that the Jews in the 312 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,210 United States and Turkey and the minister visiting minister of foreign affairs 313 00:40:10,210 --> 00:40:15,580 should actually adopt the Turkish narrative because it will be beneficial to the 314 00:40:15,580 --> 00:40:21,760 thesis of the uniqueness of all of building a sort of hierarchy of victimhood, 315 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:31,900 the Jews first and then all the others. OK, but it's really important to say that we are back in the time we did not play an important role. 316 00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:37,780 It becomes very important later on in the third period with their nationalist 317 00:40:37,780 --> 00:40:44,770 agenda of the government and the Israeli parliament in doing all the good. 318 00:40:44,770 --> 00:40:53,140 All right. So Turkey's energy problems are solved, is helping the minister of foreign affairs, 319 00:40:53,140 --> 00:40:59,180 I should emphasise, and helping Turkey to block Armenian initiatives, 320 00:40:59,180 --> 00:41:05,590 recognise the Armenian genocide, especially in the United States, but also other third party countries. 321 00:41:05,590 --> 00:41:13,510 And we suddenly have a situation where the Armenian genocide and the contested memories of the Armenian genocide, 322 00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:18,280 where Israel responded at the beginning to this whole situation is ad situation. 323 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,120 Right. How do we what do we do? How do we manage this crisis with Turkey? 324 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:28,750 We lost the. Now we need to to deal with Turkey. OK, so let's let's walk with this counter-terrorism initiative. 325 00:41:28,750 --> 00:41:32,890 All right. Let's help them cancel this conference. All right. Let's do this. Let's do that. 326 00:41:32,890 --> 00:41:41,210 Suddenly this policy or this behaviour is starting to be a norm. 327 00:41:41,210 --> 00:41:48,680 OK, so there was actually expectations for me as I build on those successes, the previous successes, 328 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:56,170 that Israel will be the defender of an international forums and defend Turkey. 329 00:41:56,170 --> 00:42:01,670 And we know about the Armenian question and a question about Armenian massacre. 330 00:42:01,670 --> 00:42:05,420 OK, so this war, this war, 331 00:42:05,420 --> 00:42:16,550 the formative years and I'm going back to this slide and I also and hear the text from the Armenian genocide resolution from the Israeli Knesset. 332 00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:26,270 It's a more updated one, but the idea stayed the same from nineteen eighty nine. 333 00:42:26,270 --> 00:42:39,560 And I mentioned that all of that happens during the late 70s, early 80s and the 80s unfolds to this position will now suddenly there are two fronts. 334 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:48,140 The front in the Knesset where the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should do something about this, because the Armenian genocide looks at Turkey. 335 00:42:48,140 --> 00:42:52,600 Right. And we still have to defend Turkey in international force. 336 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:59,600 So suddenly the minister of foreign affairs has to actually go to France to to deal with. 337 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:08,750 So they the minister of foreign affairs, actually made sure that every time those bills will try to pass, 338 00:43:08,750 --> 00:43:13,880 they will try to do something about it in the sense that they will, 339 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:22,460 for example, take the discussion form the Education Committee to the Foreign Affairs and National Security Committee. 340 00:43:22,460 --> 00:43:28,250 OK, so this is where they have more presence and this is how they can actually monitor the discussion. 341 00:43:28,250 --> 00:43:31,610 There is no media presence in there in that the electoral committee. 342 00:43:31,610 --> 00:43:43,670 So it was far more easy for them to go in or to actually control the situation in the Knesset. 343 00:43:43,670 --> 00:43:47,720 And I would like to recap and talk a little bit again about my argument. 344 00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:50,480 So I argue to that from historical perspective, 345 00:43:50,480 --> 00:44:01,130 the formative years will actually the period in which the Israeli policy on the Armenian genocide actually crystallised. 346 00:44:01,130 --> 00:44:07,400 But it was not a decision making. It was not based on any any calculated strategy. 347 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:13,790 It was basically ad hoc policy, responsive policy to a crisis. 348 00:44:13,790 --> 00:44:21,680 And suddenly the Armenian genocide, the contested memories of the genocide will just there is an opportunity. 349 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:39,250 But this unfolds into the 90s and the millennium period, which turns into a more calculated and a clear strategy and decision making. 350 00:44:39,250 --> 00:44:49,850 All right. So here I wrote that and I like to focus on again on the Israeli government's consecutive governments. 351 00:44:49,850 --> 00:44:51,860 It's quite clear why they won't recognise the genocide. 352 00:44:51,860 --> 00:45:00,950 They will not take such a bad decision for Israel's strategic interest and for many important interests, 353 00:45:00,950 --> 00:45:08,330 other interests with their country, for example, other junk that in conflict with the Republic of Armenia. 354 00:45:08,330 --> 00:45:14,810 So they will not do this and they will not take those chances and do something that is not beneficial to them. 355 00:45:14,810 --> 00:45:19,040 However, the Knesset should have done that, 356 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:23,510 or we should have expected from the Knesset to do it because they are supposed to 357 00:45:23,510 --> 00:45:31,070 represent those in a range of political and cultural views in Israeli society, 358 00:45:31,070 --> 00:45:33,230 and they still refuse to do so. 359 00:45:33,230 --> 00:45:40,890 It's a different discussion to talk about what's going on in the Knesset and how we support for military reform and for peer to peer. 360 00:45:40,890 --> 00:45:51,740 But it really requires a separate and separate the. 361 00:45:51,740 --> 00:45:56,930 I would like to thank you for, uh, yeah, for attending and of course, listening to my talk. 362 00:45:56,930 --> 00:46:08,930 And I want to just say that this stock was based on my dissertation, which, as you have mentioned, will turn into a book next year. 363 00:46:08,930 --> 00:46:15,020 And it was based on a number of interviews, articles and journal articles, journal articles, 364 00:46:15,020 --> 00:46:21,350 which I mentioned in the news outlet, the articles, short essays, which I wrote in the last few years. 365 00:46:21,350 --> 00:46:27,080 And you can find them, in my opinion, page. But of course, I would love to hear from you, of course, questions. 366 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:36,520 And we can continue to elaborate on that. Thank you very much. 367 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,054 This is.