1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:05,610 Very welcome back to Israel Studies seminar. 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,600 We are very excited to host and that's clinical today. 3 00:00:10,470 --> 00:00:14,730 Anat is a professor of law at Winchester University and she was previously director 4 00:00:14,730 --> 00:00:19,049 of Studies in Law and a fellow at Lucy Cavendish College at Cambridge University, 5 00:00:19,050 --> 00:00:25,100 the other place. And she was also the Deputy Director of the Centre for Public Law at Cambridge University. 6 00:00:25,110 --> 00:00:30,689 She recently chaired a research group at the Israeli Institute of Advanced Studies and before joining academia, 7 00:00:30,690 --> 00:00:37,830 she was a barrister in Israel with the Association for Civil Rights and litigated human rights cases before the Supreme Court. 8 00:00:38,220 --> 00:00:43,960 And today we're going to hear her speak for approximately 45 minutes, after which we will have questions and answers. 9 00:00:43,980 --> 00:00:47,580 So okay. 10 00:00:47,580 --> 00:00:56,970 So good afternoon and thank you to Yaakov and Alisa for organising this talk and thank you for coming. 11 00:00:58,260 --> 00:01:07,559 My original plan was to talk about some of my work and my research regarding the role of the Supreme Court 12 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:17,700 in Israel in establishing the relationship or the constitutional relationship between religion and state. 13 00:01:18,870 --> 00:01:28,319 Since the time that this seminar was set up, there have been very rapid constitutional changes in Israel, 14 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:34,110 and I think many of you have heard about them that affect directly this issue. 15 00:01:34,770 --> 00:01:45,030 I have been myself involved. In fact, this semester I've barely done any academic work because I have been very much involved in doing 16 00:01:45,030 --> 00:01:53,050 anything I can or contributing to action against this constitutional revolution that is taking place. 17 00:01:53,130 --> 00:01:58,410 Or I've spoken in the Knesset about this and I have written in the popular press about it. 18 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:08,940 So I thought that today I will talk about that and use it maybe a bit in the second half of my talk. 19 00:02:09,450 --> 00:02:15,719 And I will use the issue of religion and state as in a way a test case to show 20 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:21,000 what the difference is going to be with this constitutional a revolution. 21 00:02:23,250 --> 00:02:29,400 And so you've heard me use the word constitution, constitutional a number of times already. 22 00:02:29,700 --> 00:02:36,689 Some of you might know that Israel actually does not have a constitution, or rather, I would say more correctly, 23 00:02:36,690 --> 00:02:42,690 Israel has a constitution in the substantive sense, in the same way that the United Kingdom does. 24 00:02:42,690 --> 00:02:45,480 It's just not a written constitution. 25 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:54,090 Again, that's a bit of a misnomer because, of course, the rules regarding the relationship between branches of government, 26 00:02:54,090 --> 00:02:58,889 organs of government, between the governed and those who govern them. 27 00:02:58,890 --> 00:03:03,540 So civil rights, human rights, all of these do exist in written laws, 28 00:03:03,540 --> 00:03:09,629 both in Israel and in the United Kingdom, just not in a document called a constitution. 29 00:03:09,630 --> 00:03:19,410 So no formal constitution, but there is a substantive a constitution in the state in Israel. 30 00:03:19,410 --> 00:03:27,600 However, initially there was supposed to be a constitution, so it says so in the Declaration of Independence. 31 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:33,899 In fact, in 1948 and the Constitutional Assembly, which was the first elected body in the state, 32 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:40,110 was tasked with coming up as a name suggest with a constitution, with a document called the Constitution. 33 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:48,660 The Constitutional Assembly then became the first Knesset, but the constitutional assembly never came up with a constitution. 34 00:03:48,660 --> 00:03:52,470 Neither did the first Knesset or any subsequent Knesset. 35 00:03:54,620 --> 00:04:02,270 Why? Because there was controversy around this issue and it was not possible to come to an agreement. 36 00:04:02,990 --> 00:04:05,200 So there are a number of issues behind it. 37 00:04:05,210 --> 00:04:14,930 Maybe the most well known is that the religious parties, the Jewish religious parties had a difficulty with agreeing to that because they thought, 38 00:04:14,930 --> 00:04:19,670 well, the Constitution, we should not have a constitution. The Torah is the constitution of the Jewish people. 39 00:04:20,090 --> 00:04:24,440 We don't need that to be replaced by this kind of state constitution. 40 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,569 There were some issues, obviously, around also the Arab citizens of Israel. 41 00:04:29,570 --> 00:04:37,820 What role will they play? What rights will they have relative to other citizens, and should that be placed in the context of the Constitution? 42 00:04:38,750 --> 00:04:43,370 But also and that's something that I've found out that is less well known. 43 00:04:43,790 --> 00:04:47,209 There was a division in Mapai itself regarding that. 44 00:04:47,210 --> 00:04:56,450 So Mapai the ruling party for the early years, headed by David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister. 45 00:04:56,450 --> 00:05:02,480 He was opposed to this constitution, to having a constitution for the state. 46 00:05:03,290 --> 00:05:07,070 His concern was that if there is a constitution, 47 00:05:07,730 --> 00:05:17,000 the judiciary will use the constitution to review the actions of government and to review the legislation by the Knesset. 48 00:05:17,420 --> 00:05:21,409 Now, Ben Bouillon, as a very strong leader of the of the executive. 49 00:05:21,410 --> 00:05:24,319 Right. The prime minister also in the parliamentary system. 50 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:35,580 Therefore, in fact, the person who controls the parliament through the in a ruling party coalition opposed that idea. 51 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:44,089 He was concerned he didn't want his plans to be thwarted by a Supreme Court using a constitution 52 00:05:44,090 --> 00:05:51,470 to strike down maybe his actions or actions even off the Knesset legislative action. 53 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:59,240 Others in Mapai supported it. For example, Moshe Shallot, who subsequently became the second prime minister. 54 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:04,969 And he, in fact said in a party meeting, while it doesn't, 55 00:06:04,970 --> 00:06:11,270 having a constitution doesn't mean necessarily that there would be judicial review and then others, for example Labour, 56 00:06:11,270 --> 00:06:20,450 but it does so on again in the Mapai meeting said well having a constitution doesn't guarantee that anything, 57 00:06:20,450 --> 00:06:22,890 doesn't guarantee that it won't become an authoritarian state. 58 00:06:22,910 --> 00:06:30,379 If we look at the recent history of the fascist states and she was absolutely right about that, obviously it doesn't guarantee, historically speaking. 59 00:06:30,380 --> 00:06:40,430 That's definitely correct. So the was a pretty much 5050 split around that and therefore the Constitution never came to fruition. 60 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:47,480 What was agreed and this is has become known as the Harari Compromise, based on the member of Knesset, 61 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:56,600 who suggested it was that the constitution would not be written in one piece, but there would be chapters. 62 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:04,730 So each chapter that could be agreed upon would be legislated as a basic law, and that indeed happened from 1958. 63 00:07:04,740 --> 00:07:11,840 So we have a basic law, the Knesset, basic law, the government, basic law, the state economy and so on. 64 00:07:12,380 --> 00:07:18,200 What you might have noticed from just these examples, I gave one thing that was definitely missing. 65 00:07:20,690 --> 00:07:30,349 Because it was so difficult to agree upon was any kind of bill of rights, any basic law that would protect human rights. 66 00:07:30,350 --> 00:07:37,040 So it was easier to agree to basic laws that would deal with organs of government. 67 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:42,620 And indeed, in most state constitutions, there are chapters that deal with organs of government and their powers. 68 00:07:43,460 --> 00:07:51,200 But it was not possible to agree on a human rights being basic law. 69 00:07:53,270 --> 00:08:01,249 That was eventually agreed upon, at least to some extent, but only much later in 1992, 70 00:08:01,250 --> 00:08:10,280 with two basic laws that protected human rights, the more important of which is the basic law, human freedom and dignity. 71 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:18,620 So I'll pause here for a minute and go back to 1958, the first basic law. 72 00:08:18,890 --> 00:08:23,020 And the question was, okay, what are these basic laws? 73 00:08:23,030 --> 00:08:32,570 How are they different from regular laws? And an important question that Might showed you was already raised in this Mapai meeting even before that, 74 00:08:33,110 --> 00:08:36,590 when discussing the Constitution, will the court be able to use. 75 00:08:37,940 --> 00:08:44,450 We don't have the written constitution, but the basic laws in order to review legislation of the Knesset. 76 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:50,210 Is it possible for a court to strike down legislation of the Knesset using the basic law? 77 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,230 It didn't say anything explicitly in the basic laws about that. 78 00:08:54,240 --> 00:09:01,550 But then the question is what is the relationship which is higher, a basic law or regular law or aim in? 79 00:09:01,780 --> 00:09:11,620 What is the relationship between them? In 1969, the Supreme Court had occasion to answer that because a petitioner argued exactly that. 80 00:09:11,630 --> 00:09:19,850 He said, You have certain basic law around election funding and it stands in conflict to basic law 81 00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:25,640 of the Knesset that guaranteed some measure of equality or guaranteed equal elections. 82 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:34,220 And the question was, is, does the court have the power to strike down legislation that's incompatible with the basic law? 83 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,080 The answer was yes. The court has that to some extent. 84 00:09:39,620 --> 00:09:44,330 So with certain provision of basic law, one that are called entrenched provisions, 85 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:50,060 yes, the court will strike down legislation that is not compatible at the time. 86 00:09:50,450 --> 00:10:01,940 1969, right up until 1992, this only referred to basic law, the Knesset, a very slim opportunity for the court to review legislation. 87 00:10:03,570 --> 00:10:11,040 In 1992. We now have this basic law that does protect human rights, the basic law of human dignity and freedom. 88 00:10:11,790 --> 00:10:15,060 It also has an entrenched clause in it. 89 00:10:16,260 --> 00:10:24,120 And indeed, the court then in 1995 said, this time in a panel of nine judges, eight of whom said yes. 90 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,889 This also allows the court to strike down incompatible legislation. 91 00:10:28,890 --> 00:10:36,900 That is legislation of the Knesset that stands in conflict to this entrenched basic law of human dignity and freedom. 92 00:10:39,390 --> 00:10:47,250 Okay. But and here I come to the issue of religious freedom and the status of religion in the state. 93 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:57,510 There still are two major problems with protection of human rights, even under the basic law of human freedom and dignity. 94 00:10:58,260 --> 00:11:05,100 One, it does not include all of the recognised of the commonly recognised human rights. 95 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:12,900 So it protects some of them, but it does not protect explicitly freedom of religion or equality, 96 00:11:13,740 --> 00:11:19,650 which is a very basic human right included in every bill of rights that I know. 97 00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:26,190 But it is not included in a this a basic law. 98 00:11:27,510 --> 00:11:30,839 However, the basic law has a provision of human dignity, 99 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:36,210 and the court subsequently interpreted it to include these rights, at least to a certain extent. 100 00:11:37,950 --> 00:11:41,820 But as I said, there's another basic problem with the basic law. 101 00:11:43,140 --> 00:11:54,990 It has a grandfather clause. A grandfather clause means that all previous legislation so all legislation up to 1992 is protected. 102 00:11:55,290 --> 00:11:59,540 It cannot be challenged under the basic law. New legislation. 103 00:11:59,550 --> 00:12:07,620 Yes. So if the Knesset after 1992 legislates in a way that breaches the protected rights the court. 104 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:18,000 Again, depending on the circumstances, but will have the ability to strike it down, but not any existing legislation. 105 00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:22,590 That's quite a big exception. Right. 106 00:12:23,970 --> 00:12:28,800 And especially in the area of religion and state. 107 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:37,559 Why? Because since again, 1948. 108 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:45,340 Since the establishment of the state. Jurisdiction in certain matters. 109 00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:55,840 So all issues of marriage and divorce was given to religious courts of the different religious communities that existed. 110 00:12:55,870 --> 00:12:59,530 So if you're Jewish, it will be a rabbinical court, an orthodox rabbinical court. 111 00:13:00,490 --> 00:13:04,360 If you are Moslem, it will be a Sharia court and etc. 112 00:13:05,260 --> 00:13:11,360 You don't have a choice in that. You cannot say, I was born Jewish, but I'm not Jewish. 113 00:13:11,410 --> 00:13:16,660 I don't want to have my issues decided in a religious court. 114 00:13:17,020 --> 00:13:22,650 It's a given jurisdiction, even in other matters pertaining to family law. 115 00:13:22,660 --> 00:13:25,670 And I know this is not a lecture for lawyers. 116 00:13:25,690 --> 00:13:31,180 I'm not going on to the technicalities of that. But there are other matters in all in the area of family law, 117 00:13:31,810 --> 00:13:37,600 where there is jurisdiction to a secular court, the regular state court, the family courts. 118 00:13:37,780 --> 00:13:40,780 But they might still have to apply religious law. 119 00:13:41,260 --> 00:13:51,550 So religious law, not just Jewish law, but religious law of the different communities, is part of the law in Israel and the area of family law. 120 00:13:52,030 --> 00:13:55,389 You might have to be subject to it. 121 00:13:55,390 --> 00:14:00,790 You will have no option. The only option is to convert to another religion, but then that other religion would apply to you. 122 00:14:00,790 --> 00:14:09,940 And also, that's not really an option for most people who do choose to belong to the community of birth. 123 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:17,240 So all of that is protected. Under the basic law. 124 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,950 Because this is old legislation, pre-existing legislation, 125 00:14:21,950 --> 00:14:33,110 even though there is a significant breach here, both of freedom of religion and of non-discrimination. 126 00:14:34,070 --> 00:14:42,350 Okay. So freedom of religion, because you don't have a choice, you have to be subject to this religious age restriction. 127 00:14:43,970 --> 00:14:54,430 It's also a breach of equality because the substantive law of the different religions is, in many cases, discriminatory against women. 128 00:14:54,470 --> 00:15:02,150 And I'll say something about that in a minute. I just for historical context, especially, there might be storylines here. 129 00:15:03,140 --> 00:15:11,840 I will mention that this arrangement I thought it was in the beginning from 1948, but in fact, 130 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:20,389 Israel inherited it from the British mandate which existed in Israel under the British mandate. 131 00:15:20,390 --> 00:15:29,840 The King's Palestine Ordering Council, in fact, solidified the position of the religious communities as the sole. 132 00:15:32,370 --> 00:15:40,260 Judges the sole communities to which the jurisdiction in all matters of family law aim exists. 133 00:15:40,830 --> 00:15:45,569 Israel changes the law to some extent, especially in regard to a Jews. 134 00:15:45,570 --> 00:15:51,150 But again, those are technicalities that basically remain the same. The bridges themselves. 135 00:15:52,550 --> 00:15:59,600 Had kept what was the legal position beforehand under the Ottoman Empire. 136 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,150 So the Ottomans had what is called the millet system, 137 00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:09,230 which again means the religious communities each have the jurisdiction over their own law and family matters. 138 00:16:09,650 --> 00:16:14,510 And the British, as they did elsewhere, for example, in India, 139 00:16:14,930 --> 00:16:20,509 very quickly changed the law when they arrived in commercial matters and criminal matters. 140 00:16:20,510 --> 00:16:26,450 So they wanted the English law to apply, but they did not want the conflict with the religious communities. 141 00:16:26,450 --> 00:16:31,400 It was just easier to leave that as it is, and that's how we came to the position, 142 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,600 which as I say, there are some changes but substantially is the same. 143 00:16:36,170 --> 00:16:43,700 I've mentioned that it's a discriminatory aim against women and in fact Israel had is a 144 00:16:43,700 --> 00:16:49,040 member of the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, 145 00:16:49,460 --> 00:16:53,210 but had to enter what we call a reservation in international law. 146 00:16:53,210 --> 00:16:58,850 That means I'm party to a treaty, but certain provisions don't apply to us. 147 00:16:59,030 --> 00:17:07,400 So Israel had to enter a reservation because of the religious courts to say certain provisions won't apply to us. 148 00:17:07,610 --> 00:17:13,760 So it's Israel, the Islamic countries, and India also has a similar a similar reservation. 149 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:23,940 Now, so far, I've set up the. What the legal position is. 150 00:17:24,690 --> 00:17:39,059 A But I want to go into that a little bit more and I want to examine what the relationship is between the religious courts of the different religions. 151 00:17:39,060 --> 00:17:42,210 But for our purposes, especially the rabbinical courts and. 152 00:17:44,220 --> 00:17:52,810 The state courts. So these courts are the religious courts are part of the state systems. 153 00:17:52,830 --> 00:17:58,200 They're funded by the state. Judges are appointed by the state. 154 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,190 They are part of the state. And of course, the law is state law, as I've explained. 155 00:18:04,850 --> 00:18:10,370 In that system. The highest judicial instance is the Supreme Court. 156 00:18:10,580 --> 00:18:17,310 All authorities, both the judicial authorities and other public authorities, of course, must comply with the rulings of the Supreme Court. 157 00:18:17,330 --> 00:18:21,170 That's it. There's nothing unusual about that. 158 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:34,910 But with religious courts, there is a problem here, because differently from any other court, a state court and other other public authorities, 159 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:41,930 as far as the state is concerned, of course, the authority of the religious court stems from law. 160 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,820 There is a law that says you will have the authority in family matters, etc., etc. 161 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:54,800 But from the point of view of the religious courts, they don't take their authority from the state. 162 00:18:55,310 --> 00:18:59,870 That's not their normative basis. The normative basis is in the religion. 163 00:19:00,860 --> 00:19:06,530 And that raises a problem. For example, I said there is discrimination against women, 164 00:19:06,530 --> 00:19:17,509 but the state has tried to combat that police to some extent through secular legislation in family law that will or should apply everywhere, 165 00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:24,230 both in a secular court and in a rabbinical court or any a religious state religious court. 166 00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:30,340 The most important of which is community property. 167 00:19:30,350 --> 00:19:35,780 So community property is the idea that when there is a marriage, again, 168 00:19:35,780 --> 00:19:40,640 I won't go into the technicalities, but if that marriage is dissolved and divorce, 169 00:19:42,110 --> 00:19:49,490 the assets of the marriage doesn't matter in whose name they are registered, but they are divided between the spouses. 170 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:54,650 That is state law, but it's obviously not the religious law. 171 00:19:55,250 --> 00:20:03,200 The Supreme Court had occasion to discuss that and said that should apply in a religious court as well. 172 00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:10,430 But we have seen problems in the application of this in religious courts because from their point of view, 173 00:20:10,850 --> 00:20:17,510 clearly they have to apply the religious law and not the law that is imposed upon them. 174 00:20:18,350 --> 00:20:23,750 So this raises a conflict here that in some ways there is no way to settle. 175 00:20:23,810 --> 00:20:30,100 Obviously, in the end, they have to comply with it, but the normative conflict exists. 176 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:37,580 I will show another example of a conflict and that is. 177 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:49,160 What has happened for many years in Israel that religious courts, at least the rabbinical courts, would act as arbitrators. 178 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,740 So arbitration, I'll just explain for those who are not familiar. 179 00:20:54,750 --> 00:21:03,140 So if you and I have a any dispute, a commercial dispute, any dispute, we might say, well, we would rather not go to court. 180 00:21:03,170 --> 00:21:11,899 Let's go to Yaakov, who will be the arbitrator, and we'll make the decide any decision that he sees fit, 181 00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:16,190 we might say, according to which law we would like it decided, or just his discretion. 182 00:21:16,730 --> 00:21:22,250 We sign an arbitration agreement. That's absolutely fine. That person, that arbitrator. 183 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,839 There is no reason that it won't be a religious person or even a religious court. 184 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:36,650 So, for example, in the U.K., you can sign an arbitration agreement and people do that, that your dispute will be settled in a rabbinical court. 185 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,510 And that's absolutely fine. 186 00:21:38,870 --> 00:21:50,030 But the problem is, in Israel, again, because of this duality that the rabbinical courts are organs of the state, they are courts of the state. 187 00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:57,620 It would be unthinkable either in the U.K. and Israel, in any other country, that a court would take upon itself a role of arbitrator. 188 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:02,270 That is something that a private person can do. Why it? 189 00:22:02,660 --> 00:22:09,200 Any arbitration here would be coloured with this colour of authority of the state, which it is not. 190 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:15,649 It is something very different. So this was a practice, controversial practice for many years. 191 00:22:15,650 --> 00:22:23,150 And finally, this came to the Supreme Court in Israel, which said no, religious courts cannot do that. 192 00:22:23,150 --> 00:22:29,180 They are organs of the state. For the reasons I explained, they cannot act as private arbitrators. 193 00:22:29,450 --> 00:22:37,009 Again, that would be absolutely fine if the Abedini said, actually, Dalia did a would do that because it's not a state organ. 194 00:22:37,010 --> 00:22:40,400 But those who are state organs cannot cannot do that. 195 00:22:42,980 --> 00:22:51,770 So here. I will maybe come to where we are now with this aim. 196 00:22:53,160 --> 00:23:05,880 Constitutional revolution. This is a plan of the new government, which is progressing at a speed that I can only call phenomenal. 197 00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:13,080 There are new aspects of that, new parts of that that are being pushed through the system every day. 198 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:18,420 And it's even difficult to respond to all of them in a timely fashion. 199 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:27,660 I have myself witnessed this. I've in the past, participated many times in discussions as an. 200 00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:36,270 I'm at the past in the past as a representative, but no expert in the Constitution Committee of the Knesset. 201 00:23:36,270 --> 00:23:46,620 And I've never seen anything being pushed so fast with such disregard for all the experts that are coming in and saying, 202 00:23:47,730 --> 00:23:53,730 what are the problems with this and how this will undermine Israeli democracy? 203 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,940 So what is this plan? We don't, in fact, know because there are. 204 00:23:59,970 --> 00:24:05,940 The justice minister, Yariv Levin, has said there are four parts to it, but we only know the first one at this point. 205 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:13,230 So stage one deals with judicial review exactly what I talked about today. 206 00:24:13,980 --> 00:24:19,680 So this is legislation that's already going through the Knesset that will do several things. 207 00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:26,250 One is to do with appointment of judges. I won't talk about that, but basically bring that more into the hands of the government. 208 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:34,520 The second is reduce very much the ability of the court to judicially review legislation. 209 00:24:34,530 --> 00:24:41,790 What I've explained that the court can review legislation if it's against an entrenched provision in a basic law, 210 00:24:41,790 --> 00:24:49,540 especially basic law of human freedom and dignity. It will greatly reduce that because it will have to be a unanimous decision. 211 00:24:49,540 --> 00:24:54,330 And for 15 judges, it's very difficult to get 50 other judges to agree. 212 00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:59,370 And even if they make that decision, that. 213 00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:10,750 A law must be struck down because it is does not conform with the basic law of human freedom and dignity. 214 00:25:11,770 --> 00:25:18,129 The Knesset will still be able to override it, so we'll be able to re legislate and say, well, we're doing it. 215 00:25:18,130 --> 00:25:22,120 But over notwithstanding this decision of the court, we're overriding it. 216 00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:30,100 So there's really not much point in striking it down because unless it can just be legislated against their will, 217 00:25:30,580 --> 00:25:40,600 the court will not be able to at all review the basic laws themselves, which at this point the court has never really done. 218 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:49,540 But it has said that should there be a basic law that undermines in a very fundamental way, Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. 219 00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:59,950 They could they could intervene even in that. That will be impossible after this legislation and some other also restrictions 220 00:25:59,950 --> 00:26:04,240 on the ability of the court to review actions of the government as well. 221 00:26:05,470 --> 00:26:15,610 So this is stage one is of greatly reducing the power of the courts to judicially review anything that the government does. 222 00:26:16,180 --> 00:26:23,260 So what we are concerned about is that stages two, three and four will involve the actual rights, 223 00:26:23,470 --> 00:26:27,790 so will involve an actual reduction in the protection of human rights, 224 00:26:27,790 --> 00:26:34,770 maybe amendments to this basic law of human dignity and freedom, maybe other things. 225 00:26:35,170 --> 00:26:40,959 As I've already explained to you, even where we stand, the protection of human rights in Israel, 226 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,440 the legal protection is very limited because of the grandfather clause, 227 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:51,040 because not all the rights have been legislated, etc., but it would reduce that even more. 228 00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:57,340 We know, as I said, we don't know what everything that is coming in the next stages, 229 00:26:57,340 --> 00:27:04,600 but we do know some things that are already, again, in in some in the pipeline in the Knesset. 230 00:27:04,990 --> 00:27:10,870 So one of which is exactly this issue of arbitration of the religious courts that I've mentioned to you. 231 00:27:11,020 --> 00:27:14,440 And it will, in fact, overturn this decision of the court. 232 00:27:14,860 --> 00:27:20,379 And we'll say again that religious courts, this time it would be quite explicit. 233 00:27:20,380 --> 00:27:22,870 Religious courts can be arbitrators. 234 00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:32,080 It's that's a problem for the reasons that I explained, but maybe even more so because now when this will be explicitly allowed, 235 00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:39,640 you might see not just two people who have a dispute saying, okay, let's go to this rabbinical court. 236 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:47,500 But in fact, this might be included in many contracts where one side might agree because they 237 00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:52,210 don't really have a choice because of a power difference between two sides. 238 00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:59,560 If we can think of landlords and tenants, for example, if the landlord puts that in the agreement, maybe the tenants really don't have much a choice. 239 00:27:59,950 --> 00:28:10,300 So it would not even be this free choice to go to a religious arbitration, but born out of of of power disparity. 240 00:28:11,050 --> 00:28:15,670 So that's just one of the of these issues. 241 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:23,530 The concern is that a lot of them will have to do with protection of religious freedom. 242 00:28:23,530 --> 00:28:26,979 There's now a minor issue, but also important that's again, 243 00:28:26,980 --> 00:28:35,230 in the pipeline and that will forbid prohibit people from bringing into hospitals commits during during Passover. 244 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,709 But there could be much greater changes ahead. 245 00:28:38,710 --> 00:28:46,240 Of course, this will not just affect religion and laws that are centred on and focussed on today, but other rights. 246 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:56,649 So for example, again, already something that's kind of in the pipeline restrictions to the right to strike that are being pushed through. 247 00:28:56,650 --> 00:29:08,740 And there's also some appears to be neo capitalist agenda behind maybe some of the later changes that the Torah about it to in common. 248 00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:20,020 And yes that is a one of the other areas where this could even have an effect. 249 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,490 There certainly will be an effect on equality. 250 00:29:24,490 --> 00:29:29,950 Again, something that is already in the pipeline is. 251 00:29:30,940 --> 00:29:37,300 So as I've explained, there is no general equality provision in the legislation. 252 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,149 But some areas there is equality legislation. 253 00:29:43,150 --> 00:29:52,719 So for example, there is non-discrimination in employment, there is non-discrimination in services that are open to the public. 254 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,110 So I'll explain what that means. It's public accommodations called. 255 00:29:56,500 --> 00:30:00,520 So if I have generally if I have a private business, I can decide who. 256 00:30:00,610 --> 00:30:06,700 I want to do business with and no one can tell me they have. I have to treat all religions equally. 257 00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:14,320 But if I have a business that's open to the public, for example, I have a bed and breakfast and I'm advertising it to the public. 258 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:20,200 I cannot say, well, but I'm not going to take Jews into my bed and breakfast. 259 00:30:21,010 --> 00:30:24,159 There is specific legislation about that. 260 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:31,900 And if it were otherwise likely, as I said, even under the human dignity provisions, that the Supreme Court would say that's still protected. 261 00:30:32,890 --> 00:30:45,400 We know that there is an intent to change that and to allow businesses, even businesses that are open to the public to discriminate. 262 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:51,970 Whether examples have been given away that are particularly concerning against maybe same sex couples, 263 00:30:53,110 --> 00:30:59,890 I would say maybe the biggest concern is Arab citizens of Israel that could be discriminated against. 264 00:31:00,190 --> 00:31:11,079 So this is further issues of equality that I haven't really touched upon are probably just as just as 265 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:20,080 concerning in those maybe are the basic issues of the this constitutional revolution that is taking place. 266 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:31,780 These include the way that it's done through amendments to basic laws, which the Knesset can pass with a regular majority. 267 00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:41,860 Currently, the government has 64 votes in the coalition, and therefore it looks like they have no difficulty with the votes to aim to pass that. 268 00:31:42,910 --> 00:31:48,700 So there are hearings in the Knesset Constitution Committee generally. 269 00:31:49,210 --> 00:31:56,470 Such hearings are used really to understand what experts are saying, how things should be, may be changed, maybe what ideas are not such good ideas. 270 00:31:56,470 --> 00:32:01,750 But here I cannot say that this is really a process that is taking place. 271 00:32:02,020 --> 00:32:12,489 Experts are coming, but I don't see much that is that will be changed in the committee itself. 272 00:32:12,490 --> 00:32:15,370 Certainly that has made, I think, a big impact on the public. 273 00:32:16,270 --> 00:32:24,160 And that's maybe not not something that I particularly talk about, because what I do is law and not not politics. 274 00:32:24,490 --> 00:32:29,320 E But we can we can see that in taking place there. 275 00:32:30,430 --> 00:32:38,980 I've said that if this is an anti in constitutional revolution, that will undermine democracy. 276 00:32:40,330 --> 00:32:47,230 And I'll explain, maybe it's self-evident, but in Israel it's it's not self evidence why that is the case. 277 00:32:47,740 --> 00:32:53,200 So at the very least, we will end up with an illiberal democracy. 278 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,999 And I'm using here a term that was coined, I think by Viktor Orban, certainly uses it. 279 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,410 And not coincidentally, I'm making that comparison. 280 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:12,459 So there is no suggestion that elections will be denied or hampered in any way. 281 00:33:12,460 --> 00:33:17,050 Those still be free elections, but that's if that is democracy. 282 00:33:17,050 --> 00:33:22,720 It's a very thin conception of democracy that does not protect minorities, 283 00:33:23,230 --> 00:33:32,770 individuals whose rights might be infringed, doesn't have proper checks on government, even on an elected government. 284 00:33:32,770 --> 00:33:41,589 And we keep hearing that we are an elected government. So this is democracy is for us to push our agenda through. 285 00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:48,880 And certainly it's one of the branches and indeed policies made by the executive branch and law is it made by the legislative branch? 286 00:33:49,390 --> 00:33:57,190 But this will leave those branches almost without any regulation. 287 00:33:57,190 --> 00:34:02,469 The only recourse will be every four years to vote a government out. 288 00:34:02,470 --> 00:34:06,940 And again, especially I am concerned about minorities. 289 00:34:08,020 --> 00:34:18,210 I would say structural minorities like the Arab citizens of Israel who are always going to be on the minority side and will never be able to push, 290 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,270 you know, have their agenda be taken into account politically. 291 00:34:22,570 --> 00:34:32,170 But it's also true, as we've seen, even with individuals who belong to majorities, could be secular Jews who up to these this day, 292 00:34:32,170 --> 00:34:41,560 for example, are subject to religious law and whether they like it or not, in in certain instances. 293 00:34:42,580 --> 00:34:51,460 That is why this first stage, which really only deals with the judiciary, is so concerning, because once this is passed, 294 00:34:51,910 --> 00:35:00,370 it will be much easier to pass whatever next stages will be and affect minority rights and human rights and. 295 00:35:00,410 --> 00:35:04,730 It will no longer be the same recourse to the courts. 296 00:35:06,210 --> 00:35:14,250 So I think that those are the issues that I wanted to talk about and very happy to discuss and answer.