1 00:00:00,702 --> 00:00:08,892 It's Mette Sandbye, who is professor of photography studies in the Department of Arts and Cultural Studies at the University of Copenhagen, 2 00:00:08,892 --> 00:00:15,732 and who this time is also an academic visitor, a research associate of the Department of History of Art. 3 00:00:15,732 --> 00:00:21,402 And we're going to be talking in part during our conversation about what exactly she's doing at Oxford. 4 00:00:21,402 --> 00:00:26,602 But I think before we get to that point Mette, we should talk about how you got to be an art historian at all. 5 00:00:26,602 --> 00:00:34,512 And the first thing that struck me when I was looking at your CV as I was preparing for our conversation was that just like last week's guest, 6 00:00:34,512 --> 00:00:40,812 you too had your first two degrees in comparative literature rather than in art history, 7 00:00:40,812 --> 00:00:46,362 and that it was at the PhD level that you chose to write a PhD on, as it happens, 8 00:00:46,362 --> 00:00:52,152 photography and memory as it's articulated in the work of a group of contemporary artists. 9 00:00:52,152 --> 00:00:58,962 What made you shift to doing a PhD about something visual in particular about something photography? 10 00:00:58,962 --> 00:01:04,962 And did you get that in an art history, under an art history discipline or still in Comparative Literature? 11 00:01:04,962 --> 00:01:08,322 MS: Well, the thing is, the department where I am now, 12 00:01:08,322 --> 00:01:13,992 which is called the Department of Arts and Cultural Studies, is a department that hosts both the art history, 13 00:01:13,992 --> 00:01:17,952 literature, musicology, theatre studies 14 00:01:17,952 --> 00:01:27,342 and cultural studies that I studied as my my M.A. I started in literature because I was interested in literature. 15 00:01:27,342 --> 00:01:36,642 But in those days in the eighties, also an advantage was that literature was extremely open to all sorts . You could study, 16 00:01:36,642 --> 00:01:43,062 you know, write about churchyards or Donald Duck or fashion or whatever. 17 00:01:43,062 --> 00:01:50,622 And it was very, you know, related to new theory, whereas maybe at that time, 18 00:01:50,622 --> 00:01:55,812 art history in Copenhagen at least, was a little bit more classical or traditional. 19 00:01:55,812 --> 00:02:06,192 So when I chose my A subject, there was a new programme in my department called Modern Culture, which is an interdisciplinary programme, 20 00:02:06,192 --> 00:02:12,432 something between the British tradition of cultural studies and the more German tradition of Kulturwirtschaft 21 00:02:12,432 --> 00:02:21,342 So I started there and then I started to specialise in photography because I guess I've always I personally had this 22 00:02:21,342 --> 00:02:30,072 interest in photography and then at university I was kind of surprised that there was no place you could study it. 23 00:02:30,072 --> 00:02:40,092 And so suddenly during my M.A., which is two years in Denmark, there was a guest professor called Miles Orvell 24 00:02:40,092 --> 00:02:45,732 I don't know if you heard of his name, an American professor of American studies. 25 00:02:45,732 --> 00:02:49,662 Actually, he had a course on the history of American photography. 26 00:02:49,662 --> 00:02:57,462 So it was basically a course where he showed like hundred slides every week or something and went through the history of American photography. 27 00:02:57,462 --> 00:03:02,952 And I was like superstruck. I thought it was so interesting and so much new material. 28 00:03:02,952 --> 00:03:06,982 And I guess that kind of let me on the way. 29 00:03:06,982 --> 00:03:20,292 So already I wrote my master's thesis on American staged photography, but before that I had written, for instance, on Family of Man exhibition. 30 00:03:20,292 --> 00:03:28,722 So I guess the whole, like, variety, that photography could be so many things caught my attention and inspired me. 31 00:03:28,722 --> 00:03:35,892 And that led me to perceive the idea within something in between modern culture and art history. 32 00:03:35,892 --> 00:03:41,142 One could say. GB: And as I understand it, you have kind of the first I mean, 33 00:03:41,142 --> 00:03:46,062 you were the first Danish photo historian or the first person to study it at that level or something. 34 00:03:46,062 --> 00:03:56,262 MS: Yeah, we were actually a couple or three at the same time doing our Ph.D. in photography at the same time. 35 00:03:56,262 --> 00:04:04,332 But I'm the first and only until now, professor, of photography studies in Denmark, one could say. 36 00:04:04,332 --> 00:04:13,322 So I'm the one who has stuck to photography and specialised in it for so many years now. GB: And since I guess you were a pioneer then, 37 00:04:13,322 --> 00:04:19,352 but have you found as a consequence of your position that there's been a lot of students following in your footsteps? 38 00:04:19,352 --> 00:04:27,662 MS: Yeah, definitely it means something. I got the inspiration from listening to this guy, Miles Orvell the American professor, 39 00:04:27,662 --> 00:04:33,392 I think it's really important that, you know, students can have specialised courses in photography. 40 00:04:33,392 --> 00:04:37,742 So that has definitely increased the interest. 41 00:04:37,742 --> 00:04:43,562 Having said that, I have, as you are, I was head of department for the last eight years, 42 00:04:43,562 --> 00:04:49,052 which means I haven't personally had that much teaching in photography. 43 00:04:49,052 --> 00:04:57,892 But now I'm back on trail and I'm definitely, you know, counting students and making them follow me the next year. 44 00:04:57,892 --> 00:05:02,522 Hope? I hope so. GB: That's another thing that struck me when I was looking across your career, 45 00:05:02,522 --> 00:05:10,982 was that at about the same time that you were writing your PhD, you also began writing art criticism for a Danish newspaper. 46 00:05:10,982 --> 00:05:14,552 And indeed, you've been writing that criticism for twenty seven years now. 47 00:05:14,552 --> 00:05:22,692 I'm just wondering how you balance academic scholarly writing and work with public writing. 48 00:05:22,692 --> 00:05:27,002 Is that a difficult thing to maintain that balance? MS: , I don't think so. 49 00:05:27,002 --> 00:05:29,822 I mean, of course, it is more time consuming. 50 00:05:29,822 --> 00:05:38,912 And sometimes I think, you know, had I used - all the time for the last twenty seven years, I've used on doing these reviews, - had I used them on, 51 00:05:38,912 --> 00:05:47,282 you know, studying more French philosophy or writing more books or whatever, I mean, you'll only have like 24 hours in a in a day. 52 00:05:47,282 --> 00:05:57,242 But but I've come to think or I have always thought, actually, that both sides profit from each other. 53 00:05:57,242 --> 00:06:05,732 And so I guess I have this kind of outreach desire that I've had always. Actually when I finished 54 00:06:05,732 --> 00:06:11,282 my MA studies that is that the last thing I wanted at that time was to enter into university. 55 00:06:11,282 --> 00:06:12,902 I just thought that was the worst thing. 56 00:06:12,902 --> 00:06:22,202 So I worked actually in a theatre doing communication for three or four years before I re-entered university. 57 00:06:22,202 --> 00:06:26,312 And that was at the same time that I actually called this newspaper. 58 00:06:26,312 --> 00:06:32,492 They had a very fabulous cultural editor who specialised in photography, 59 00:06:32,492 --> 00:06:39,662 which very few newspapers do, actually and still, and did at that time. 60 00:06:39,662 --> 00:06:46,812 So he died. And then I, I called the new cultural editor and said, shouldn't I be the one who writes about photography for your newspaper? 61 00:06:46,812 --> 00:06:53,642 And he accepted and, you know, for instance, when I wrote my PhD, 62 00:06:53,642 --> 00:07:00,932 which was about how contemporary artists or artists in the nineties, 63 00:07:00,932 --> 00:07:09,962 nineteen nineties primarily, had kind of renegotiated history through reusing family photographs, 64 00:07:09,962 --> 00:07:18,092 people such as Ilya Kabakov, Sophie Calle 65 00:07:18,092 --> 00:07:20,282 So when I wrote it, 66 00:07:20,282 --> 00:07:28,142 I profited from being an art critic because I was invited to all these museum openings, invited to do interviews with the artists. 67 00:07:28,142 --> 00:07:35,942 sitting next to them at the gallery, opening dinner or something like that were in those days. 68 00:07:35,942 --> 00:07:40,682 I mean, maybe they would never have called a university person to - 69 00:07:40,682 --> 00:07:46,932 'Wouldn't you come and meet so and so because the book sounds good, whatever' But because I was press, I could kind of take advantage from that. 70 00:07:46,932 --> 00:07:54,902 So so in many ways those two things happen to be good for each other. 71 00:07:54,902 --> 00:07:56,792 One could say the end, 72 00:07:56,792 --> 00:08:05,432 at least I've had a much more visible profile in the Danish public because I had this window to the world in the newspaper. 73 00:08:05,432 --> 00:08:11,672 It's a weekly newspaper. It's kind of a little bit more cultural maybe, or slightly more I wouldn't say academic, but, you know, 74 00:08:11,672 --> 00:08:18,122 you can write longer articles with longer sentences in this newspaper. 75 00:08:18,122 --> 00:08:25,262 And also actually, I think it's really nice, you know, it gets you on the toes. I write quickly. 76 00:08:25,262 --> 00:08:32,972 So that's also something which is sometimes, you know, nice for your academic practise that you kind of think and write. 77 00:08:32,972 --> 00:08:37,262 And it can be an advantage and sometimes maybe disadvantage. 78 00:08:37,262 --> 00:08:47,012 GB: So far, despite having this side job, you published 10 books, eight of them in Danish and two in English. 79 00:08:47,012 --> 00:08:56,132 I wonder how again you've reconciled or is there some frustration in having to speak to a local audience that primarily speaks Danish, 80 00:08:56,132 --> 00:09:01,592 but also trying to get your work to a more global audience? How do you match those two things? 81 00:09:01,592 --> 00:09:06,312 MS: Definitely there is. I mean, in my generation when 82 00:09:06,312 --> 00:09:17,622 I wrote my piece in the 90s, nobody wrote in English, actually, we wrote in our own language 83 00:09:17,622 --> 00:09:24,492 I had both my master's dissertation, my PhD dissertation and other books published quickly after. 84 00:09:24,492 --> 00:09:32,952 So I kind of became a name in Scandinavia because as people might know, we can read each other's languages. 85 00:09:32,952 --> 00:09:37,272 So the Swedes and the Norwegians could read my books in Danish. 86 00:09:37,272 --> 00:09:38,862 But now in retrospective, 87 00:09:38,862 --> 00:09:47,602 I really sometimes regret that I didn't take the effort of writing my books in English from the beginning because a lot has changed in Denmark, 88 00:09:47,602 --> 00:09:53,982 the universities have become much more international. The PhD students write much more there dissertations in English. 89 00:09:53,982 --> 00:10:01,632 And so the last, you know, whatever, 10, 15 years or more, I have published a lot of articles in English, 90 00:10:01,632 --> 00:10:08,892 but the book that I'm kind of preparing now, where I have all this time in Oxford, will be in English. 91 00:10:08,892 --> 00:10:25,902 So that will be my first monography in English. GB: Mette, 92 00:10:25,902 --> 00:10:32,202 maybe you could explain so that we can understand what is the relationship between Denmark, 93 00:10:32,202 --> 00:10:42,102 the Nordic countries and Scandinavia. And what advantages and disadvantages are there from you coming from this region of the world? 94 00:10:42,102 --> 00:10:49,452 MS: Wow, that's a big question. I mean, there is a relation in that sense that the cultures are very close to each other. 95 00:10:49,452 --> 00:10:56,742 I mean, it's always like that. When we - I say some of the some academics from the Nordic countries - 96 00:10:56,742 --> 00:11:04,182 if we go to a conference in England or the US or whatever, we feel very much the same and we kind of stick to each other or whatever. 97 00:11:04,182 --> 00:11:07,332 But when we are in our own context, of course, 98 00:11:07,332 --> 00:11:13,872 we feel that there are major differences between us and we can, you know, I could speak a lot about that. 99 00:11:13,872 --> 00:11:19,722 But I mean, it is an advantage that we understand each other's languages except Finnish. 100 00:11:19,722 --> 00:11:26,832 That's another totally other, you know, language group. 101 00:11:26,832 --> 00:11:32,112 So historically there has been a lot of engagement with each other, 102 00:11:32,112 --> 00:11:36,882 but also because we are like the same kind of social democratic welfare societies. 103 00:11:36,882 --> 00:11:45,912 and there are many similarities. GB: you often seem, I mean you personally, often seem to be involved in projects that are Nordic rather than, say, Danish. 104 00:11:45,912 --> 00:11:52,422 MS: Yeah, definitely. And I mean, as I recall, we talked about it the other day, where it was that we met. 105 00:11:52,422 --> 00:12:02,502 But I think it was because actually there was a conference in Denmark where we had the Michel Frizot as a guest speaker. 106 00:12:02,502 --> 00:12:09,412 He was the French scholar who made one of the more recent - well, it's 20 years ago - 107 00:12:09,412 --> 00:12:15,372 Histories of photography which was very acknowledged. And so we invited him to Denmark for a seminar. 108 00:12:15,372 --> 00:12:21,852 And there I met a colleague from Norway secretly and a colleague from Sweden, Stockholm 109 00:12:21,852 --> 00:12:31,572 And we got the idea of making a Nordic network of photography studies in order to first speak to each other and collaborate. 110 00:12:31,572 --> 00:12:37,392 But secondly, also to make, you know, Scandinavian and Nordic photos studies more known in the world. 111 00:12:37,392 --> 00:12:42,942 And we had these annual seminars, we got some funding, and we invited you for one of our seminars. 112 00:12:42,942 --> 00:12:47,562 And that's like more than 20 years. Well, around 20 years ago or something. 113 00:12:47,562 --> 00:12:55,452 And so in that sense, you know, because we are small countries, we could do more if we united. 114 00:12:55,452 --> 00:13:02,742 GB: I gather then that there is sort of monies available to developing Pan-Scandinavian projects like that. 115 00:13:02,742 --> 00:13:09,542 That's kind of an interesting idea that all of the Scandinavian countries, including Finland and Iceland. 116 00:13:09,542 --> 00:13:15,842 You know, become incorporated into this five country combined funding model. 117 00:13:15,842 --> 00:13:27,572 MS: Yes, I mean, of course, sometimes funding, you know, can kind of guide you a little bit on the way of getting ideas of what to do. 118 00:13:27,572 --> 00:13:34,082 I mean, there are lots of examples of, that's the same with some EU programmes where you need to be in three countries or so. 119 00:13:34,082 --> 00:13:42,182 When suddenly someone from Hungary calls you and say, you know, 'we need a partner from from Scandinavia, could you be on board or something' 120 00:13:42,182 --> 00:13:44,972 But in terms of speaking for the Nordic countries, 121 00:13:44,972 --> 00:13:52,712 I think we already have so many things in common that it is kind of strengthening ourselves if we work together. 122 00:13:52,712 --> 00:13:57,562 And that's what we're doing. And that's one of the projects I'm here to research on in Oxford. 123 00:13:57,562 --> 00:14:01,862 This such a collaborative project. GB: We'll come will come to the Oxford thing. 124 00:14:01,862 --> 00:14:04,382 But I want to still talk about your past, 125 00:14:04,382 --> 00:14:14,582 because another pioneering thing that you have done during your career is publish or edit the first history of Danish photography, 126 00:14:14,582 --> 00:14:23,042 which must have been an interesting project in itself. Could you say a little bit about how that project came to that came to fruition? 127 00:14:23,042 --> 00:14:34,682 MS: Well, actually, it was something that was started by another person than me, it was the director of the Museum of Photographic Art, 128 00:14:34,682 --> 00:14:44,822 who started the project and negotiated with a publisher, the largest danish publisher, Gyldendal. 129 00:14:44,822 --> 00:14:49,742 And so he kind of gave me the project to take and continue with it. 130 00:14:49,742 --> 00:15:00,392 So the frame was that it was a one volume history of photography, which should include everything - that's very difficult in one volume. 131 00:15:00,392 --> 00:15:03,702 And the some of the authors were already asked. 132 00:15:03,702 --> 00:15:09,242 So I kind of continued and just maybe broaden the scope a little bit more so that people who contributed, 133 00:15:09,242 --> 00:15:16,532 came from history, literature, studies, art, history, media studies, lots and lots of fields. 134 00:15:16,532 --> 00:15:26,072 And since it was only about a one volume book, the two classical traces, which is documentary and art photography, 135 00:15:26,072 --> 00:15:37,182 but we tried I tried to include as much as you can, all sorts of fashion photography and X-ray photography and other kinds, 136 00:15:37,182 --> 00:15:44,522 a little bit inspired by the form of Michel Frizot's History of photography, 137 00:15:44,522 --> 00:15:53,892 where there are these small inserts, case studies of the first image, X-ray photography or royal portraits, something like that. 138 00:15:53,892 --> 00:16:01,592 GB: The multiple authors was this difficult as the editor to manage. 139 00:16:01,592 --> 00:16:02,852 MS: Oh, it's, I mean, always. 140 00:16:02,852 --> 00:16:12,962 But if you try editing other people's text - I think there are maybe 10 authors or something - this is the last time I'll do that. 141 00:16:12,962 --> 00:16:20,792 But having said that, you know, if you have a tight editing process, 142 00:16:20,792 --> 00:16:28,982 you can get more experiences, more knowledge, you can broaden the scope by having many authors. 143 00:16:28,982 --> 00:16:35,252 So that worked pretty well. As with my own books it is in Danish. 144 00:16:35,252 --> 00:16:39,332 We even tried to persuade, because it was the largest Danish publisher, 145 00:16:39,332 --> 00:16:49,112 it's like a traditional commercial publishing house and they were not at all interested in having it in English, nor just a summary in English. 146 00:16:49,112 --> 00:16:51,432 So that was beyond their interest. 147 00:16:51,432 --> 00:17:01,232 GB: It's kind of impressive, though, that there's enough of a market in Denmark alone to publish what is a relatively lavishly produced book. 148 00:17:01,232 --> 00:17:05,552 MS: Yeah, I mean it's it's has been sold out for many years actually now. 149 00:17:05,552 --> 00:17:15,152 And that's the thing. it came in one edition of - I don't know now how many actually I've forgotten - a couple of thousands. 150 00:17:15,152 --> 00:17:18,482 And it's sold out now and they won't, 151 00:17:18,482 --> 00:17:22,682 because it's really expensive to do in a second edition, it's 152 00:17:22,682 --> 00:17:29,672 very beautifully illustrated and that's expensive to to do a second edition. 153 00:17:29,672 --> 00:17:31,322 GB: But the challenge, 154 00:17:31,322 --> 00:17:39,392 the creative challenge of national histories is how you decide what to include and how you decide what you're going to exclude and was struck that you, 155 00:17:39,392 --> 00:17:46,952 for example, chose to include work by Jacob Riis, a Danish born person who, however, 156 00:17:46,952 --> 00:17:53,882 only made photographs for a very brief time in New York, never made any in Denmark. So what gave you the rationalisation, 157 00:17:53,882 --> 00:17:59,112 why should Jacob Rees appear in the history of Danish photography? 158 00:17:59,112 --> 00:18:10,812 MS: Well, first of all, each side was given a theme and a kind of chronological period, and then they had pretty free hands of what to include. 159 00:18:10,812 --> 00:18:15,852 But secondly, I guess it's maybe typical of that for some small country like Denmark, 160 00:18:15,852 --> 00:18:22,932 when we have at least one who is internationally famous worldwide, then we would call him a Dane. 161 00:18:22,932 --> 00:18:26,682 Like, for instance, you know, one could compare with Olafur Eliasson, 162 00:18:26,682 --> 00:18:30,792 right now, who's one of the world's most famous artists? 163 00:18:30,792 --> 00:18:34,752 And he is like, I think he's more or less permanently living in Berlin. 164 00:18:34,752 --> 00:18:39,252 His parents are from Iceland, but in Denmark, we definitely call him a Danish artist. 165 00:18:39,252 --> 00:18:43,632 And so that's a little bit like Jacob Riiis. We definitely call him a Dane. 166 00:18:43,632 --> 00:18:47,112 And, you know, so he should be in the book. 167 00:18:47,112 --> 00:18:54,732 But having said that, it's very much about photography in Denmark done by Danish photographers. 168 00:18:54,732 --> 00:19:01,722 GB: an you imagine writing a Danish history of photography rather than a history of Danish photography? 169 00:19:01,722 --> 00:19:09,552 The Finns have done it. They've published two histories of Finnish, and to Finnish histories of world photography. 170 00:19:09,552 --> 00:19:15,792 Maybe the next project for you would be writing a Danish history of world photography. 171 00:19:15,792 --> 00:19:19,512 Is it possible? Is it conceivable? MS: I don't know. 172 00:19:19,512 --> 00:19:28,422 I mean, probably, but I haven't really thought about it and I'm not sure 173 00:19:28,422 --> 00:19:33,582 how I should succeed with that. I mean, we'll come back to to my new project. 174 00:19:33,582 --> 00:19:41,232 maybe it could be said that it is a kind of a Nordic thinking behind that project. 175 00:19:41,232 --> 00:19:49,422 GB: One of the things that struck me when reading what you have written about this history of Danish photography, is that, 176 00:19:49,422 --> 00:19:59,122 even at the moment of publication, you called for its parricide, that is, you called on the next generation to kill it off and publish a better one. 177 00:19:59,122 --> 00:20:00,972 I wonder if that's how, when you look back, 178 00:20:00,972 --> 00:20:08,742 you see that the great contribution of this project was precisely just to be the first that's opening the door for others. 179 00:20:08,742 --> 00:20:17,892 MS: Yes. That's that's a major contribution, I would think. But the thing is that until now, there hasn't been another new history of Danish photography. 180 00:20:17,892 --> 00:20:21,522 There has been a history of Danish contemporary art. 181 00:20:21,522 --> 00:20:26,802 I made one myself also where photography is included. 182 00:20:26,802 --> 00:20:34,242 I mean, that's the other story. Should we keep on having this ghetto of photography as itself? 183 00:20:34,242 --> 00:20:43,062 Is is it relevant today to write histories of photography instead of history of contemporary art or contemporary culture or whatever? 184 00:20:43,062 --> 00:20:50,322 And I think it's always the dilemma if you come from a culture where you haven't really described what went on, 185 00:20:50,322 --> 00:20:57,522 then you tend to make the first attempt kind of traditional in a sense, 186 00:20:57,522 --> 00:21:03,252 because I must admit that this first history of Danish photography was in a sense traditional. 187 00:21:03,252 --> 00:21:13,272 We used the same, you know, documentary genres, et cetera, that other international histories of photography have done. 188 00:21:13,272 --> 00:21:18,342 But I guess it's also important just to make visible what happened. 189 00:21:18,342 --> 00:21:24,942 I mean, in the American history of photography, you have the five different volumes. 190 00:21:24,942 --> 00:21:33,702 Then number six can be totally, you know, exploding everything from within and making a totally alternative history. 191 00:21:33,702 --> 00:21:42,012 But I think you need a little bit of a traditional fundament making visible what happened. 192 00:21:42,012 --> 00:21:46,152 But of course, in one volume it's just the tip of the iceberg. 193 00:21:46,152 --> 00:21:52,662 GB: Now, your own contribution to that history was a chapter about what we might call everyday 194 00:21:52,662 --> 00:21:56,592 photography and the different ways in which Danish artists have engaged with them, 195 00:21:56,592 --> 00:22:01,482 particularly since the 1960s and 70s. Why do you think that's an important issue? 196 00:22:01,482 --> 00:22:07,842 And why is the 60s and 70s such an important 10 year period also? 197 00:22:07,842 --> 00:22:14,142 MS: Well, I think in my chapter, 198 00:22:14,142 --> 00:22:23,652 I decided to focus both on kind of avant garde photography and then ordinary people's photography and documentary photography, 199 00:22:23,652 --> 00:22:31,572 all in the same chapter, because I realised that it was a time where, you know, private photography really exploded. 200 00:22:31,572 --> 00:22:39,702 One could say private photography exploded post the invention of the Kodak camera in the 1880s. 201 00:22:39,702 --> 00:22:48,342 And there have been other phases. But the sixties and the early seventies was a major explosive explosion where everyone, children, 202 00:22:48,342 --> 00:22:54,432 women, whatever, could suddenly afford a camera, take colour photographs, it's the instant period, 203 00:22:54,432 --> 00:22:58,772 it's the period of the flashbulb. So there was. 204 00:22:58,772 --> 00:23:04,772 Really an explosion of private photography in the late 60s, early 70s, 205 00:23:04,772 --> 00:23:11,942 and at the same time that kind of photography was taken up by 206 00:23:11,942 --> 00:23:21,782 avant garde artists in some kind of protest against the, you know, expensive paintings, post-war painting, that tradition, etc. 207 00:23:21,782 --> 00:23:28,022 So so especially conceptual artists or also political artists, 208 00:23:28,022 --> 00:23:34,622 most of them like either took their own snapshots and 209 00:23:34,622 --> 00:23:39,572 included them in books and artworks and kind of imitated the work of the amateur. 210 00:23:39,572 --> 00:23:46,712 So there was this mutual collaboration between the amateurs and the most advanced avant garde artists. 211 00:23:46,712 --> 00:23:50,702 I mean, that's not only a Danish thing, but that took place internationally as well. 212 00:23:50,702 --> 00:23:59,912 So I thought that was a really interesting period. And actually in documentary it was well, there was this concern about making something more, 213 00:23:59,912 --> 00:24:04,232 you know, trashy and spontaneous and political at the same time. 214 00:24:04,232 --> 00:24:11,522 So at the same time, when I wrote this chapter, I did a book called Boring Images, 215 00:24:11,522 --> 00:24:26,462 and that was about how artists had kind of imitated or reused, but mostly imitated snapshot photographs in the seventies. 216 00:24:26,462 --> 00:24:40,202 There was a chapter about Wolfgang Tillmans, for instance, also his way of kind of imitating vernacular snapshot photos, et cetera, which led me to 217 00:24:40,202 --> 00:24:45,122 an interest for the last 10 years, that was after I've done this, I was like, 218 00:24:45,122 --> 00:24:51,212 why has so much been written about these, you know, avant garde artists and artists in general working with photography? 219 00:24:51,212 --> 00:24:57,242 And why has so little been written on the real amateur images, the family albums, the family photographs? 220 00:24:57,242 --> 00:25:02,552 And that was like 10 years ago, whereas now there's much more. 221 00:25:02,552 --> 00:25:07,382 But during these 10 years where I've been working with a family photo album, 222 00:25:07,382 --> 00:25:15,842 there has been an explosion in interest in vernacular photography and also inspired by your work of school, of course. 223 00:25:15,842 --> 00:25:23,132 GB: So perhaps you could explain to our audience about snapshot albums - 224 00:25:23,132 --> 00:25:28,682 what is interesting about them, when on the surface, they seem rather banal and ordinary. 225 00:25:28,682 --> 00:25:31,352 Why do you find them so interesting? 226 00:25:31,352 --> 00:25:40,142 MS: I mean, one reason is just that there's this abundance of images. I mean, that's actually the most widespread use of photography, one could say. 227 00:25:40,142 --> 00:25:48,482 So just psychologically, it's interesting to ask: why is it so important for people to take photographs of their daily lives, 228 00:25:48,482 --> 00:25:53,912 collect these images, even though they maybe don't look at them, they just have them in the house or whatever? 229 00:25:53,912 --> 00:26:02,282 So that psychological need to both record the past and what has happened, but also to, 230 00:26:02,282 --> 00:26:09,812 you know, make your create your own identity, your own history, your own self image. 231 00:26:09,812 --> 00:26:13,562 I think that's super interesting psychologically. 232 00:26:13,562 --> 00:26:21,482 And then secondly, it's actually interesting material to look into, because if you regard it as some kind of, 233 00:26:21,482 --> 00:26:25,472 you know, depictions of culture and such broader culture. 234 00:26:25,472 --> 00:26:35,232 So this mixture between the very personal identity making and the representation of cultures is super interesting. 235 00:26:35,232 --> 00:26:43,652 I think you can make a lot you can create histories, write histories from looking into family photo albums. 236 00:26:43,652 --> 00:26:53,852 And then that is the challenge I try to work with these days, particularly from the sixties and seventies and onwards, because that kind of material, 237 00:26:53,852 --> 00:27:05,252 which is our near past, one could say is I mean, I think it's interesting to look at - there's things like, you know, material culture in the period 238 00:27:05,252 --> 00:27:12,632 I brought one album with me. I just saw something like these albums here. 239 00:27:12,632 --> 00:27:23,702 For instance, here you see an image - if you can see it - of someone photographing their new motor bike, that kind of leisure culture. 240 00:27:23,702 --> 00:27:34,562 And then you have a baby stroller. So this idea of photographing the materials around you, your new acquisitions is interesting and how people, 241 00:27:34,562 --> 00:27:40,922 you know, posed. How they relate to each other's bodies. 242 00:27:40,922 --> 00:27:47,462 There's so many things that can be said from albums. It's kind of strange 243 00:27:47,462 --> 00:27:56,172 it hasn't been done more in a sense. GB: Now, I know you've done research in Japan, obviously in Denmark, and now at least a little bit in England. 244 00:27:56,172 --> 00:28:04,752 How are you able to discern? I mean, one of the interesting things about studying things like snapshot albums is we imagine that it's a common medium. 245 00:28:04,752 --> 00:28:07,872 But when you go to different places, have you noticed differences? 246 00:28:07,872 --> 00:28:13,722 Are there cultural differences between the ways in which people use their photographs and particularly how they 247 00:28:13,722 --> 00:28:20,502 articulate them in album form? MS: Definitely there are differences. I'm here in Oxford for a term and 248 00:28:20,502 --> 00:28:23,922 I was a term in Tokyo, in Japan some years ago. 249 00:28:23,922 --> 00:28:31,902 And first of all, I mean, actually doing research on more recent material is a way also to get in touch with people. 250 00:28:31,902 --> 00:28:36,012 I was told that before I came - and I don't speak Japanese - 251 00:28:36,012 --> 00:28:44,252 that the Japanese are very difficult to actually get to talk with and open their homes, 252 00:28:44,252 --> 00:28:51,252 etc. But then having that project made it much more easy to actually get access to people's houses. 253 00:28:51,252 --> 00:28:55,992 And, you know, they were super open to show me. And they have so many albums. 254 00:28:55,992 --> 00:29:00,352 It's incredible. They have very small apartments, but they had really many albums. 255 00:29:00,352 --> 00:29:08,082 And so I did interviews with around 15 families or one member of the family, and they showed me their albums. 256 00:29:08,082 --> 00:29:17,412 And one could say that we live in a global Kodak culture where a lot of family photographs are 257 00:29:17,412 --> 00:29:25,302 the same and albums and also because maybe technology kind of decides how we pose etc. 258 00:29:25,302 --> 00:29:32,652 But having said that, there are many, many differences. For instance, it's much more about Japanese culture. 259 00:29:32,652 --> 00:29:42,142 It's much more about being an individual within a collective I mean, being a part of the collective, a group, for instance. 260 00:29:42,142 --> 00:29:47,652 So I was struck by how many group images there were. And for instance, 261 00:29:47,652 --> 00:29:56,772 it's a common thing to have a photographer if you go to a school trip or even the daily lives in the schools is photographed by photographers. 262 00:29:56,772 --> 00:30:06,012 And then these images can be bought by the parents. And there they go into the albums. For instance, from my own kids, my own history, 263 00:30:06,012 --> 00:30:12,342 I have no images from my school time except those post annual school photographs. 264 00:30:12,342 --> 00:30:19,902 Whereas in these Japanese albums, there were many photos of like one individual in the group in the daily life in the group. 265 00:30:19,902 --> 00:30:28,722 So that was the thing that struck me. GB: Are they organised differently within the album format? 266 00:30:28,722 --> 00:30:35,562 MS: Most of the photos I saw were dedicated to individual children, for instance, 267 00:30:35,562 --> 00:30:43,272 or an individual person that the album was following a person from birth until typically they left home. 268 00:30:43,272 --> 00:30:48,582 That's a form I saw in the U.S. as well. And it's not so common in Denmark, actually. 269 00:30:48,582 --> 00:30:53,412 We have more just the history of the whole family in one album. 270 00:30:53,412 --> 00:30:54,552 So that's the thing. 271 00:30:54,552 --> 00:31:07,152 Also kind of underlining this aspect of, you know, telling the individual child's story within a larger community, within a larger context. 272 00:31:07,152 --> 00:31:16,212 GB: No doubt you've noticed the impact of digital photography and digital social media. 273 00:31:16,212 --> 00:31:20,772 What is that impact. Are people still making albums or is this a thing of the past? 274 00:31:20,772 --> 00:31:24,072 MS: It is a thing of the past, I would say. 275 00:31:24,072 --> 00:31:30,222 I mean, there are these new technologies where you can send in your photographs and 276 00:31:30,222 --> 00:31:37,562 then by email receive a kind of pre-produced or a company commercially produced album. 277 00:31:37,562 --> 00:31:41,232 People do that typically if they have children or small children. 278 00:31:41,232 --> 00:31:46,392 But it's a totally other thing. Now with the photography, it's a much more social thing. 279 00:31:46,392 --> 00:31:55,242 It has always been a thing of communication, which is also a point that I guess with these new digital technologies, 280 00:31:55,242 --> 00:32:03,132 they have made us look back into history and realise aspects that were already there in photography, 281 00:32:03,132 --> 00:32:08,142 for instance, I mean, the whole Roland Barthes take on photography that you have studied yourself a lot. 282 00:32:08,142 --> 00:32:14,952 I still think as you do that it's the most inspiring book on photography, his Camera Lucida. 283 00:32:14,952 --> 00:32:21,462 But that thing about, you know, the past and facing the past, the nostalgia of the past and the 'this has been...' etc... 284 00:32:21,462 --> 00:32:28,062 this approach to photography has dominated for so many years. 285 00:32:28,062 --> 00:32:36,342 Whereas I think when we had digital photography, suddenly we realised that photography is much more about communication, 286 00:32:36,342 --> 00:32:41,892 about communicating, and now, you know, via Instagram or Snapchat sending images. 287 00:32:41,892 --> 00:32:46,782 'Here we are. Oh, hello' from Oxford to to Denmark or whatever. 288 00:32:46,782 --> 00:32:51,582 So it's much more about sharing and communication etc. 289 00:32:51,582 --> 00:32:55,662 Thinking of photography in that way related to 290 00:32:55,662 --> 00:33:01,032 digital photography has also brought attention to what was already there in photography. 291 00:33:01,032 --> 00:33:11,392 GB: But I wonder, you know, you were saying people put together albums, put them in a cupboard, and very rarely actually look at them. 292 00:33:11,392 --> 00:33:16,272 I wonder whether what digital photography has brought to the fore is that we were always be more invested in the 293 00:33:16,272 --> 00:33:24,762 taking than we were in the looking at them. You were talking about the psychological aspect of photographing. It's the 294 00:33:24,762 --> 00:33:33,342 act of photographing that we do anxiously, but the actual recording and organising of photographs is actually a secondary matter. 295 00:33:33,342 --> 00:33:38,412 MS: Yeah, that's probably an important aspect. 296 00:33:38,412 --> 00:33:45,702 But one could say that actually producing an album was an element of, you know, active construction of your own history. 297 00:33:45,702 --> 00:33:54,552 And interestingly enough, many albums include all sorts of other things like, you know, hair locks or little writings or paper clippings. 298 00:33:54,552 --> 00:33:58,512 And so they are scrapbooks in itself, which I think is really interesting. 299 00:33:58,512 --> 00:34:03,342 And the whole materiality of that is one thing that one should look into. 300 00:34:03,342 --> 00:34:12,522 So that is aspect is more or less gone now where people, you know, just keep an endless stream of photographs on their phone or so. 301 00:34:12,522 --> 00:34:18,222 They don't really organise them any anymore. And I mean, personally, I think it's a shame. 302 00:34:18,222 --> 00:34:26,142 But I don't even do it with my own photographs. So, I mean, as historians, we cannot say this is a shame or people should do this and that. 303 00:34:26,142 --> 00:34:30,522 I mean, we need to follow what happens. And so. 304 00:34:30,522 --> 00:34:33,372 GB: Have you found any interesting examples? 305 00:34:33,372 --> 00:34:41,172 I think you were looking in the Bodleian library as a first resource. Does the Bodleian have interesting examples of personal family albums. 306 00:34:41,172 --> 00:34:41,832 MS: They do. 307 00:34:41,832 --> 00:34:54,132 If you're particularly interested in the history of British colonialism and people who went elsewhere and worked as soldiers. 308 00:34:54,132 --> 00:35:06,462 The other day I saw a really interesting album about a nurse who went went to Southern Europe and her personal album. 309 00:35:06,462 --> 00:35:14,112 So those kind of stories, they are full of. But I was particularly looking for a new material and I didn't find any of that. 310 00:35:14,112 --> 00:35:23,172 I found a little bit in Denmark. So what my findings has mostly actually been in flea markets or talking to persons. 311 00:35:23,172 --> 00:35:28,242 So if anyone in the audience has an album from the sixties or the seventies, 312 00:35:28,242 --> 00:35:34,572 a British album that they don't want to want to, you know, that they don't know what to do with. 313 00:35:34,572 --> 00:35:39,972 Then I would be interested. I mean, last year, I heard a radio programme. 314 00:35:39,972 --> 00:35:47,082 We had this radio programme in Denmark where people can, you know, call in with all sorts of dilemmas, personal dilemmas. 315 00:35:47,082 --> 00:35:49,392 And then there was a person who called in and said, you know, 316 00:35:49,392 --> 00:35:55,662 my father died and we had three siblings and he has so many photographs and we don't know what to do with them. 317 00:35:55,662 --> 00:36:00,792 And, you know, my sisters, they want to throw them out. 318 00:36:00,792 --> 00:36:07,122 What should I do? And I have never responded to a radio programme before, but I wrote into this, 319 00:36:07,122 --> 00:36:11,292 you know, 'if you don't keep them, then I would like to have them.' 320 00:36:11,292 --> 00:36:16,512 So they read this announcement and actually the family ended up keeping the photographs. 321 00:36:16,512 --> 00:36:20,202 But there was another woman who called me and said, you know, I have the same problem. 322 00:36:20,202 --> 00:36:25,812 'Would you like to have my father's photographs?' So then that can also be a way to get material. 323 00:36:25,812 --> 00:36:32,172 GB: Wow. Amazing. Now, you mentioned British colonial history, but Denmark has its own colonial history. 324 00:36:32,172 --> 00:36:40,962 And I know that you've written about photographic practises and again, the relationship of artists to photographic practises in Greenland. 325 00:36:40,962 --> 00:36:48,862 Would you say a little bit about that? I mean, is there something distinctive about the history of the culture of Greenland that interests you? 326 00:36:48,862 --> 00:36:53,422 MS: I mean, definitely it's interesting. I'm in a sense, I'm happy that, you know, 327 00:36:53,422 --> 00:36:58,552 the Danish history of photography came out in 2004, so it's many years ago. 328 00:36:58,552 --> 00:37:05,482 And there was actually a whole chapter on the representation of Greenland by Danish photographers. 329 00:37:05,482 --> 00:37:09,562 Mostly there were very few in the first half of the 20th century. 330 00:37:09,562 --> 00:37:14,062 There were one or two Greenlandic photographers and they are included as well. 331 00:37:14,062 --> 00:37:20,002 But we had this chapter in it in a period where actually, I must say, you know, 332 00:37:20,002 --> 00:37:27,862 nobody took an interest in Greenland and Denmark has never considered itself a colonial colonial nation. 333 00:37:27,862 --> 00:37:33,262 And actually, it's only more recently that, you know, we've been discussing these issues. 334 00:37:33,262 --> 00:37:42,712 So I think it's really interesting to look into how particularly the Danes, but also other explorers, such as, you know, Peary, 335 00:37:42,712 --> 00:37:52,882 The other day I was actually at the Bodleian and they have this two volume Robert Peary book from the late ninteen hundreds, called Northward, 336 00:37:52,882 --> 00:37:55,042 Northward Over the Great Ice, I think. 337 00:37:55,042 --> 00:38:03,682 So that's his exploring description of his meeting with the Greenlanders and they included some amazing photographs in them. 338 00:38:03,682 --> 00:38:10,312 Among others a series where explorers, they have names, they are dressed in fur coats. 339 00:38:10,312 --> 00:38:13,072 They're called Clark and Entrekin, et cetera. 340 00:38:13,072 --> 00:38:21,232 And then the photographs of some of the local Inuit women they meet, they are more or less naked and they don't have names. 341 00:38:21,232 --> 00:38:27,262 They are called, you know, mistress of the tupiq, which means tent or arctic bronze, things like that. 342 00:38:27,262 --> 00:38:31,282 So that was a typical representation maybe of the time of the Greenlanders, 343 00:38:31,282 --> 00:38:36,172 which is, of course, important to shed light on in a Danish context as well. 344 00:38:36,172 --> 00:38:41,752 But I found it also interesting, as both an art critic in Denmark, 345 00:38:41,752 --> 00:38:45,802 and a photo historian to look into what is going on right now. 346 00:38:45,802 --> 00:38:54,802 A young photographer is actually one depicting their daily lives, 347 00:38:54,802 --> 00:38:58,972 which are not that different from yours and mine, maybe, 348 00:38:58,972 --> 00:39:09,292 except that you have, you know, icebergs in the background or something, or they are, you know, reworking the colonial past in a critical way. 349 00:39:09,292 --> 00:39:19,462 Some of them do that now. So I've always thought it was, you know, important to follow that story as seen from a Danish perspective as well, 350 00:39:19,462 --> 00:39:26,122 GB: Is there tension between Greenland and Denmark. I mean, is that part of that history or not? 351 00:39:26,122 --> 00:39:36,832 MS: I mean, well, more recently, the whole as in the world as such, the discussion of decolonisation has grown a lot in Greenland more recently. 352 00:39:36,832 --> 00:39:44,362 I mean, they got self-rule in 2009. And so they're still a part of the Danish realm, but they have self-rule. 353 00:39:44,362 --> 00:39:50,932 But the last, I would say four or five years or something, amongst particularly young Greenlanders, 354 00:39:50,932 --> 00:39:57,052 the discussion of becoming even more independent from Denmark has risen a lot. 355 00:39:57,052 --> 00:40:04,252 So it's and, you know, there was a case last year where, first of all, there was the story about Donald Trump coming to Greenland, 356 00:40:04,252 --> 00:40:11,182 wanting to buy Greenland, and that created a huge focus and debate, et cetera, on it. 357 00:40:11,182 --> 00:40:16,912 But at the same time, there was some you know, there's a statue in the central square in Nuuk 358 00:40:16,912 --> 00:40:19,772 the capital, which is a statue of Hans Egede 359 00:40:19,772 --> 00:40:30,922 the Norwegian Danish priest who started the colonisation of Greenland three hundred years ago in 1721. 360 00:40:30,922 --> 00:40:36,922 And they put red paint over him and wrote Decolonised, et cetera. 361 00:40:36,922 --> 00:40:44,902 And actually, this is the three hundred year anniversary of the official colonisation of Greenland. 362 00:40:44,902 --> 00:40:51,502 And the official celebration has been cancelled off by the mayor of Nuuk, the capital. 363 00:40:51,502 --> 00:40:54,652 So lots of arrangements are going on. 364 00:40:54,652 --> 00:41:00,082 But it's not a thing that people celebrate in Greenland anymore. 365 00:41:00,082 --> 00:41:09,352 So there are tensions. But coming with that, there's there's much more interest from Denmark in Greenland these days, maybe because, 366 00:41:09,352 --> 00:41:17,452 on a political level, people feel that, 'OK, we could actually lose Greenland' because it's a way for Denmark to be an important being. 367 00:41:17,452 --> 00:41:23,422 We are invited to Arctic summits, et cetera, because we are with the US, with Russia. 368 00:41:23,422 --> 00:41:30,892 Suddenly we have this important role, which is something that Denmark wants to keep in a sense. 369 00:41:30,892 --> 00:41:34,372 GB: Let me just invite audience members. 370 00:41:34,372 --> 00:41:42,472 If they have questions for Mette, please put them in the chair and read them out when we have a bit of time. 371 00:41:42,472 --> 00:41:46,972 You're in Oxford, you're looking at the family snapshot albums of that sort of material. 372 00:41:46,972 --> 00:41:48,242 But the other interest you have. 373 00:41:48,242 --> 00:41:56,732 The moment is in professional studios run by women, and it's around the turn of the 20th century and something I didn't realise, 374 00:41:56,732 --> 00:42:00,932 but I know you've just given a paper in Zagreb about it, is that many of the 375 00:42:00,932 --> 00:42:05,582 early Danish women photographers were also involved in the suffragette movement. 376 00:42:05,582 --> 00:42:10,232 Could you say something a little bit about the connexion between women running 377 00:42:10,232 --> 00:42:16,352 their own photography studios and their aspirations for political representation, 378 00:42:16,352 --> 00:42:25,802 perhaps? MS: Yeah. I mean, it turns out that this is a Nordic project where we have five scholars from Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland and Finland. 379 00:42:25,802 --> 00:42:30,512 And we had this idea initially that it was a specific Nordic culture. 380 00:42:30,512 --> 00:42:36,902 I'm not so sure about that, just now from scratching the surface here in England, but I can come back to that. 381 00:42:36,902 --> 00:42:48,152 But just actually making visible the huge amount of women studio photographers there were in the early the late 19th and early 20th century. 382 00:42:48,152 --> 00:42:52,742 And many of them, they never married. 383 00:42:52,742 --> 00:42:59,392 They only hired women assistants in the studios, some of them - the one I did a paper on in Stockholm - 384 00:42:59,392 --> 00:43:06,872 She was she never married. She never had children. And her studio partner was also a woman photographer. 385 00:43:06,872 --> 00:43:11,042 And they lived together, as you know, in the obituary of one of them. 386 00:43:11,042 --> 00:43:15,692 It said 'her friend', the other one. 387 00:43:15,692 --> 00:43:19,832 So I don't know actually what their relationship was. 388 00:43:19,832 --> 00:43:29,552 But it's a fact that many of them actually also lived with women and they supported all sorts of women's liberation movements. 389 00:43:29,552 --> 00:43:32,342 This one that I've been writing about. 390 00:43:32,342 --> 00:43:43,802 She fought for having more women on the union of photographers, having more women to be educated, but not only in photography, but in you know, 391 00:43:43,802 --> 00:43:53,372 she started a women's reading club in Copenhagen and all these kind of initiatives to empower women, 392 00:43:53,372 --> 00:44:02,162 one could say in a sense, at the same time, she was super commercial and she was, you know, photographing the royal palace. 393 00:44:02,162 --> 00:44:04,562 She became a royal photographer because of that. 394 00:44:04,562 --> 00:44:13,052 And so I think it's really interesting, the culture of something very commercial and at the same time fighting for women's liberation. 395 00:44:13,052 --> 00:44:19,742 And she photographed all the Danish - I mean, we don't call them suffragettes in Denmark - but the same movement. 396 00:44:19,742 --> 00:44:25,562 And she was the central part of fighting for women's right to vote. 397 00:44:25,562 --> 00:44:31,292 That was gained in 1915 in Denmark. So that was before England. 398 00:44:31,292 --> 00:44:36,122 GB: Do you think the photography industry or the photography business was more open to women? 399 00:44:36,122 --> 00:44:40,642 And that's why we find these independent type of women taking it up? 400 00:44:40,642 --> 00:44:49,652 Why is there this particular association between running commercial photography studios and political activism, do you think? 401 00:44:49,652 --> 00:45:00,812 MS: Uh, I mean, all these technological aspects of photography, I guess it was considered a male thing. 402 00:45:00,812 --> 00:45:03,452 And so I don't know. 403 00:45:03,452 --> 00:45:13,952 I think just taking the step to actually become an independent photographer and open your own studio made you think of what you could do, 404 00:45:13,952 --> 00:45:24,032 empower you and then, you know, make you interested in, you know, communicating that knowledge to other women in a sense. 405 00:45:24,032 --> 00:45:30,272 I mean, there are many articles from that period, not only in Scandinavia, but also in England and the US, 406 00:45:30,272 --> 00:45:35,372 where women write articles such as 'this is really a business for for young women to enter' 407 00:45:35,372 --> 00:45:42,422 'and you should' and encouraging them to do that. And so we had that idea that it was a Scandinavian thing. 408 00:45:42,422 --> 00:45:52,862 But looking into the the census, the British and Wales census or the census for England and Wales in that period, 409 00:45:52,862 --> 00:46:01,232 I can see that actually between 30 and 40 percent of the professional photographers in England as well were women. 410 00:46:01,232 --> 00:46:04,922 So that's a whole, you know, culture. That is interesting. 411 00:46:04,922 --> 00:46:09,302 Just to, you know, first of all, to inscribe in the general history of photography, 412 00:46:09,302 --> 00:46:15,362 but actually looking into it as its own field, as a culture, a broader culture. 413 00:46:15,362 --> 00:46:18,062 So we are not trying to, I'm not trying to, you know, 414 00:46:18,062 --> 00:46:25,592 make these photographers, convert them into artists or something, but actually looking around the culture as such. 415 00:46:25,592 --> 00:46:29,792 GB: Yeah. And as I understand it, this is another Nordic project. 416 00:46:29,792 --> 00:46:36,402 I mean, it's you and other scholars in the Nordic region. So how does that work? 417 00:46:36,402 --> 00:46:38,952 MS: Well, it's difficult to collaborate with 418 00:46:38,952 --> 00:46:47,562 five people at the same time. We wanted to write into Nordic chapters with themes and writing together the four of us, 419 00:46:47,562 --> 00:46:51,402 but we have just realised that that's actually too complicated because, you know, 420 00:46:51,402 --> 00:46:57,492 two of them are museum directors and some the rest of us we live and we work in universities. 421 00:46:57,492 --> 00:46:59,292 We have a lot of obligations, teaching, 422 00:46:59,292 --> 00:47:08,802 etc. So we end up probably writing a couple of chapters each from each country and then putting it into one volume. 423 00:47:08,802 --> 00:47:16,192 GB: OK, so is it going to be an effort to say, 'Oh, there's something Nordic about Nordic women's studios' or we're going to say no, 424 00:47:16,192 --> 00:47:21,072 there's a Danish chapter and a Swedish chapter and so on? MS: Yeah, I think we'll do that. 425 00:47:21,072 --> 00:47:28,602 The last thing and I think I mean, initially we had this idea that, as I said, it was a specific Nordic culture, but I don't think it anymore. 426 00:47:28,602 --> 00:47:32,952 I had a talk the other day with a student actually from Oxford, 427 00:47:32,952 --> 00:47:40,932 and she is studying visual culture and women's visual culture around nineteen hundred in Paris and St. Petersburg. 428 00:47:40,932 --> 00:47:48,462 And it was super interesting that, I mean, there was a lot of women photographers in St. Petersburg around nineteen hundred. 429 00:47:48,462 --> 00:47:55,362 I didn't realise that at all. So even though our story is not specific, it's still interesting and worth writing about. 430 00:47:55,362 --> 00:47:59,322 GB: sounds like a fascinating story. 431 00:47:59,322 --> 00:48:06,972 Now, another recent project you've been engaged in is curating an exhibition of Danish contemporary art, is that right? 432 00:48:06,972 --> 00:48:15,462 MS: Yes GB: So tell me is this something you've done in the past, curating? MS: I haven't curated much. A little bit. 433 00:48:15,462 --> 00:48:20,742 Another way of getting material from the sixties and seventies is that a couple of years ago, 434 00:48:20,742 --> 00:48:28,182 I curated an exhibition and we have an annual history festival in Copenhagen where, you know, there's a theme. 435 00:48:28,182 --> 00:48:32,652 It started with the Golden Ages in the sixties. 436 00:48:32,652 --> 00:48:37,132 But now because it's an annual festival and so they've reached more contemporary time. 437 00:48:37,132 --> 00:48:45,642 So a couple of years ago, the theme was the seventies. And it's mostly either history or it's, you know, fine art, culture, etc. 438 00:48:45,642 --> 00:48:52,152 So I proposed we did an exhibition of ordinary people's photographs where they could send in their photographs. 439 00:48:52,152 --> 00:48:55,872 And that was a way for me to get material from the seventies. 440 00:48:55,872 --> 00:49:02,142 But otherwise, this other exhibition was...When I started working with photography, 441 00:49:02,142 --> 00:49:08,712 there weren't many institutions or galleries didn't show photography or anything. 442 00:49:08,712 --> 00:49:13,512 But 25 years ago, the Centre for Photography opened in Copenhagen. 443 00:49:13,512 --> 00:49:19,602 And so that was the 25th birthday of the gallery. 444 00:49:19,602 --> 00:49:25,722 And they invited me to curate this exhibition because I had had been there all along the whole period. 445 00:49:25,722 --> 00:49:35,412 So that was super interesting for me. Just to dive into my own past as a photography critic and as an academic and people I've known and I just, 446 00:49:35,412 --> 00:49:41,502 you know, make some cuts into the history of Danish art photography. 447 00:49:41,502 --> 00:49:49,182 GB: And did you learn anything from the experience of having to shape it into an exhibition for a lot? 448 00:49:49,182 --> 00:49:50,202 MS: I mean, I learnt a lot. 449 00:49:50,202 --> 00:50:02,082 But the one thing that was I mean, one of the things that struck me is the generation that kind of matured in the two thousands, maybe 10 years ago. 450 00:50:02,082 --> 00:50:04,492 They are now into commercial galleries. 451 00:50:04,492 --> 00:50:15,882 They live from it, et cetera, and the oldest work we had in the exhibition, was a fantastic colour, sepia work from a woman. 452 00:50:15,882 --> 00:50:25,002 It's six metres wide and two metres high, which is a work I remembered from the late 80s. 453 00:50:25,002 --> 00:50:29,942 That was one of the first pieces of art criticism I did on that work. 454 00:50:29,942 --> 00:50:35,562 So this woman, when she came to the exhibition, we had chosen to present the work. 455 00:50:35,562 --> 00:50:40,632 She unpacked it and it hadn't been packed out for 22 years. 456 00:50:40,632 --> 00:50:42,942 I was like, what? This amazing work. 457 00:50:42,942 --> 00:50:53,592 It's just been standing somewhere, you know, she has paid expensive, you know, storage rooms for it. 458 00:50:53,592 --> 00:51:02,262 And so that was just an example of, you know, how much has happened in photography commercially in the gallery world as well. 459 00:51:02,262 --> 00:51:09,672 So young artists around 40 years old, they should be really happy and proud 460 00:51:09,672 --> 00:51:10,302 I mean, 461 00:51:10,302 --> 00:51:19,242 think about standing on the shoulders of someone who did a lot of work in maybe the seventies and eighties and they haven't been recognised. 462 00:51:19,242 --> 00:51:28,032 GB: So we've got a question for you. Picking up on the discussion of ethnographic photographs in Denmark Mette. 463 00:51:28,032 --> 00:51:31,992 How do you think that the work of contemporary art is dealing with cultural difference? 464 00:51:31,992 --> 00:51:35,732 How artists you write about, such as Tina Enghoff, can negotiate 465 00:51:35,732 --> 00:51:43,142 the idea of the photographic document in a way that doesn't reproduce the dynamic of the colonial archive in Denmark. 466 00:51:43,142 --> 00:51:47,402 MS: I think 467 00:51:47,402 --> 00:51:53,132 it's a current internationally that artists kind of rework the archive 468 00:51:53,132 --> 00:52:00,062 maybe or make works that are much more complex instead of - speaking of Greenland - 469 00:52:00,062 --> 00:52:05,232 you mentioned Tina Enghoff, she's done work on Greenland. Her most recent work is about Greenland. 470 00:52:05,232 --> 00:52:13,592 So instead of going to Greenland and photographing icebergs and whatever people in Canoes for the fifth time or so, 471 00:52:13,592 --> 00:52:18,122 what she does is to make kind of collaborative projects with people. 472 00:52:18,122 --> 00:52:24,722 The lost project she did was called Displaced, 473 00:52:24,722 --> 00:52:30,692 where she met a man in his seventies in Greenland who when he was a child in the fifties, 474 00:52:30,692 --> 00:52:37,592 he got kind of deported or displaced to Denmark, which was not common at the time because he was limping. 475 00:52:37,592 --> 00:52:45,422 And there was a nurse who saw that and then sent him to - he was five years old or something - the hospital in Denmark. 476 00:52:45,422 --> 00:52:48,902 And he spent several years there. 477 00:52:48,902 --> 00:52:54,662 And now as an older man, he doesn't remember anything from that period and why he was there. 478 00:52:54,662 --> 00:53:00,542 So what she did was look into the Danish archives and to take out as much material about his destiny 479 00:53:00,542 --> 00:53:07,022 in Denmark and bring it back and discuss it with him and making it kind of open history, 480 00:53:07,022 --> 00:53:15,572 his history, but also a history of, you know, the relationship with Denmark and Greenland and the forgotten memories, the forgotten archives. 481 00:53:15,572 --> 00:53:22,502 So there's a lot of things going on 482 00:53:22,502 --> 00:53:29,522 in that area. And it's something maybe in between, you know, documentary art, ethnography, anthropology. 483 00:53:29,522 --> 00:53:35,252 And that's a very interesting field that someone that like her represents. 484 00:53:35,252 --> 00:53:40,232 But of course, I mean, this is an international current. Yeah. 485 00:53:40,232 --> 00:53:48,662 GB: Let me ask you a supplementary question. Mette do you think somebody like you or I could learn something from an artist like this. That is, is this 486 00:53:48,662 --> 00:53:54,512 a prompt for you and I to invent a different kind of voice for the art historian or for the photo historian? 487 00:53:54,512 --> 00:54:01,052 Do we need to do that rather than the traditional somewhat documentary voice, you might call it? 488 00:54:01,052 --> 00:54:06,232 Do we need to invent a new voice to talk about contemporary photography? 489 00:54:06,232 --> 00:54:13,102 MS: Hmmm, I mean, maybe we don't need it, but it's a good idea to try it and 490 00:54:13,102 --> 00:54:25,052 I don't know how it is with your Department of Art history here, but I guess many art historians and in Denmark and elsewhere will try to, you know. 491 00:54:25,052 --> 00:54:34,112 write in other ways, I mean, it's a whole new current in a way that is more inspired by fiction, 492 00:54:34,112 --> 00:54:38,132 for instance, I haven't really done it myself because it's super difficult. 493 00:54:38,132 --> 00:54:41,702 I mean, the other day we talked about someone like Carol Maeva who writes, 494 00:54:41,702 --> 00:54:48,392 who specialises in photography and started out maybe with a more traditionally historical way of working. 495 00:54:48,392 --> 00:54:55,712 And now she's actually calling herself a writer of fiction and she's gone more in that way. 496 00:54:55,712 --> 00:55:02,532 But I guess it's also extremely difficult and it can be, you know, super uninteresting. 497 00:55:02,532 --> 00:55:07,442 So but I encourage people. 498 00:55:07,442 --> 00:55:14,522 And we have a study group in my department of people working with photography where some of them are artists also. 499 00:55:14,522 --> 00:55:19,052 And we get inspired from their way of writing about photography. 500 00:55:19,052 --> 00:55:27,152 And we always discuss examples of how to write more, maybe personally, creatively, openly on photography. 501 00:55:27,152 --> 00:55:30,002 I mean, you can do that on literature and anything as well. 502 00:55:30,002 --> 00:55:39,092 But I don't know, with photography, there's something maybe more open and personal in the material as such, that encourages other kinds of writing. 503 00:55:39,092 --> 00:55:42,902 GB: I was wondering because, you know, the department, you got your degree in and now 504 00:55:42,902 --> 00:55:46,742 the department that you're teaching, the nature of it, the way you describe it, 505 00:55:46,742 --> 00:55:51,782 it does sound like an interestingly interdisciplinary culture in which different kinds of 506 00:55:51,782 --> 00:55:57,452 ways of thinking about visual culture seem possible within a history of art department. 507 00:55:57,452 --> 00:56:02,042 But it sounds like you're very much embedded in interdisciplinary conversation. 508 00:56:02,042 --> 00:56:05,072 GB: Definitely. And I think that's a major asset. 509 00:56:05,072 --> 00:56:13,352 And I didn't really realise I mean, when I was head of department, every time we had a position up, we always have like two legs. 510 00:56:13,352 --> 00:56:20,432 You should be an expert in one discipline, but you should also do something interesting and ideally, 511 00:56:20,432 --> 00:56:27,062 work in interdisciplinary ways also. 512 00:56:27,062 --> 00:56:34,802 So you could consider if you were an art historian, you should be able to teach in some way students from literature, musicology, etc. 513 00:56:34,802 --> 00:56:39,242 And I realised that we had many applicants who actually like that and weren't used 514 00:56:39,242 --> 00:56:45,122 to that from their own more classical way of structuring it in France or Germany, 515 00:56:45,122 --> 00:56:51,152 etc. So I think it's a major asset that we try all the time to teach across 516 00:56:51,152 --> 00:56:56,162 borders and we have research groups consisting of people from musicology, 517 00:56:56,162 --> 00:57:01,862 theatre, art, history, et cetera. GB: And so these research groups speak to each other, 518 00:57:01,862 --> 00:57:05,732 you mean, there are people from all those disciplines in the same group? MS: Exactly. 519 00:57:05,732 --> 00:57:17,192 Yeah. And that's what we try to encourage. We are around 80 staff members, only if we include the postdocs. 520 00:57:17,192 --> 00:57:22,802 So it's a big department where we have these possibilities. 521 00:57:22,802 --> 00:57:27,512 GB: I mean, it sounds like it could be wonderfully fertile or a complete nightmare. 522 00:57:27,512 --> 00:57:34,502 And as head of department, you must have experienced both sides of it. MS: Yeah, I mean, it was sometimes difficult to get people to collaborate. 523 00:57:34,502 --> 00:57:42,602 But from the other side I was coming from actually I would say the most collaborative discipline, which is literature and cultural studies. 524 00:57:42,602 --> 00:57:55,842 I think it works really well. And it is an asset. On a daily basis, it works very well most of the time. It's more about if you know, 525 00:57:55,842 --> 00:57:59,592 when it comes to money and positions, who is going to have the next position? 526 00:57:59,592 --> 00:58:04,092 Is it musicology people, the theatre people, etc. then the quarrel starts. 527 00:58:04,092 --> 00:58:13,062 But that's I guess always. And then anyway, maybe down in Oxford - we are being cut all the time in the Humanities in Denmark. 528 00:58:13,062 --> 00:58:17,472 So we struggle with with the economy. 529 00:58:17,472 --> 00:58:27,072 GB: Yeah. Well that was the context in which I came to Oxford. And as you know, I'm keen that history of art prove itself worthy of continued funding. 530 00:58:27,072 --> 00:58:33,732 And we need to constantly be thinking about how to make art history relevant to our community and to the world in which we live. 531 00:58:33,732 --> 00:58:39,042 Well, Mette, you do that every day, and I'm very grateful for you sharing your efforts with our audience. 532 00:58:39,042 --> 00:58:42,462 Thank you so much for your time. MS: It was a pleasure. And thanks for having me on board. 533 00:58:42,462 --> 00:58:50,352 I'm super happy that you invited me to come. 534 00:58:50,352 --> 00:58:52,992 GB: I know. We're happy to have you. I mean, 535 00:58:52,992 --> 00:58:59,352 it's been unfortunate that the last 18 months or so we haven't had academic visitors because it does enrich our intellectual 536 00:58:59,352 --> 00:59:04,632 environment to have people coming and doing research and sharing a different experience like the one you've had from, 537 00:59:04,632 --> 00:59:08,862 Denmark, with students and indeed the rest of my colleagues. 538 00:59:08,862 --> 00:59:15,312 So it's really good to have you here. And we hope you're the first of several more that will be coming over the next year or so. 539 00:59:15,312 --> 00:59:21,342 So thank you Mette. Thank you, everybody, for listening. I look forward to speaking next week. 540 00:59:21,342 --> 00:59:27,432 My guest is Anthony Gardner, who teaches at the Ruskin Arts Centre and specialises in contemporary art of 541 00:59:27,432 --> 00:59:31,152 various kinds that he's going to be explaining to us this coming Wednesday. 542 00:59:31,152 --> 00:59:34,572 So hopefully I'll see all of you there on my screen thern. 543 00:59:34,572 --> 00:59:38,386 Thank you very much.