1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,060 GB: Welcome everybody. I'm Geoff Batchen, I'm the host of the Radio Hour. Every Wednesday evening 2 00:00:06,060 --> 00:00:13,710 I have the pleasure and honour of interviewing a guest about their practise as an art historian. 3 00:00:13,710 --> 00:00:19,950 It's recorded, and so you can find podcast versions of these conversations on our website. 4 00:00:19,950 --> 00:00:25,380 The University of Oxford. The idea is literally to treat it like radio. 5 00:00:25,380 --> 00:00:34,470 My guest and I chat and you can wander around in your pyjamas, sipping wine or making dinner or whatever else you might want to do while we talk. 6 00:00:34,470 --> 00:00:37,230 I'll just remind you that at about the 45 minute mark, 7 00:00:37,230 --> 00:00:45,690 you're more than welcome to send questions in for Linda to answer using the chat function on teams. 8 00:00:45,690 --> 00:00:49,560 And then I'll read out those questions and invite later to respond to them. 9 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:55,470 I'll remind you about that mark, in case you've been thinking up a great question between now and then. 10 00:00:55,470 --> 00:01:03,840 So I'm very happy to welcome Lena Fritsch, who is the curator of modern and contemporary art at the Ashmolean Museum and who 11 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,280 is the co-curator of an important exhibition that is currently up in that museum. 12 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:13,470 'Tokyo art and photography' and certainly part of our conversation is going to be about that exhibition. 13 00:01:13,470 --> 00:01:22,210 But let me first ask you, Lena, you grew up in Germany. How did you come to specialise in Japanese language and culture? 14 00:01:22,210 --> 00:01:31,540 LF: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. Well, actually, you say I grew up in Germany, but I actually lived in Japan when I was four, too 15 00:01:31,540 --> 00:01:36,010 We moved to Japan when I was four and a half years old and then until I was about six. 16 00:01:36,010 --> 00:01:41,740 So one and a half, almost two years, I actually lived in Japan, in Osaka. 17 00:01:41,740 --> 00:01:46,210 My mother is a musicologist with a focus on Japanese music. 18 00:01:46,210 --> 00:01:50,290 And she had a scholarship at the time and was doing research in Osaka. 19 00:01:50,290 --> 00:01:59,620 And so that's yeah, that's how I first encountered Japan. And so Japanese is my second language, and I have a very close relationship with Japan. 20 00:01:59,620 --> 00:02:06,760 And so my interest in Japanese art is basically rooted in, you know, in this in this close link to Japan. 21 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:14,860 That's just part of my biography. GB: I noticed you won prizes, the speeches in Japanese, at quite a young age. 22 00:02:14,860 --> 00:02:18,790 So beyond just living, I mean, living there from four to six is one thing. 23 00:02:18,790 --> 00:02:25,540 But then to continue to study it in such a fashion, presumably you've done that, you know, all your life, it sounds like. 24 00:02:25,540 --> 00:02:30,220 LF: Yes. I mean, I'm very grateful to my mother now. I absolutely hated it when I was younger. 25 00:02:30,220 --> 00:02:39,670 But once we moved back to Germany, I went to a Japanese school every Saturday for a few hours, and I used to have Japanese babysitters. 26 00:02:39,670 --> 00:02:43,090 And so she made sure that I that I don't forget it. And so basically, 27 00:02:43,090 --> 00:02:51,550 I've never lost the Japanese language. There was a phase when I had a kind of kindergarten style Japanese, I had to cut off and move on from that. 28 00:02:51,550 --> 00:02:55,210 But basically, I never, never lost it, which is, I mean, it's amazing 29 00:02:55,210 --> 00:02:58,420 it's just so much easier as a child to learn a new language. 30 00:02:58,420 --> 00:03:04,690 And so I'm very grateful that she actually was quite strict about it to make sure that I that I didn't lose the language. 31 00:03:04,690 --> 00:03:14,230 GB: Yeah. Now when you came to write your Ph.D. in art history, you chose to write about Japanese art photography of the 1990s. 32 00:03:14,230 --> 00:03:21,350 I'm interested in how you came to make that decision. So I guess Japanese was obvious, but the photography part perhaps less obvious. 33 00:03:21,350 --> 00:03:25,270 I'm especially interested in the 1990s because there's been quite a lot of work 34 00:03:25,270 --> 00:03:29,830 and indeed celebration of Japanese photography of the late 60s and early 70s. 35 00:03:29,830 --> 00:03:36,460 Why did you pick to choose to write about photography and then why the 1990s in particular? 36 00:03:36,460 --> 00:03:39,190 LF: Well, basically, actually, we would have to go back a little bit more. 37 00:03:39,190 --> 00:03:48,800 So when I was thinking about my master's thesis, my supervisor at the time suggested that I do something about Morimura Yasumasa. 38 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:55,520 Who, as you know, is appropriation artist who dresses up, as you know, film stars, different artists. 39 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,960 And so he's a photographic artist, so he works with photography. 40 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:07,160 But yeah, he's kind of often seen in this context of appropriation art, and he became quite big in the 80s and 90s. 41 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,700 And when I started researching his work for my master's thesis, 42 00:04:10,700 --> 00:04:15,830 I realised that there were so many other artists who did interesting things in Japan in the 1990s. 43 00:04:15,830 --> 00:04:23,030 And so basically my Ph.D. theme grew out of this interest in Morimura 44 00:04:23,030 --> 00:04:27,200 and then I was looking at artists such as [INAUDIBLE] 45 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:35,060 other artists, photographers whose work were shown, particularly in the West as of the 1990s, 46 00:04:35,060 --> 00:04:39,950 and from there I then actually became interested also in the 70s and the 80s. 47 00:04:39,950 --> 00:04:43,010 And, you know, the photography that's probably better known in the West, 48 00:04:43,010 --> 00:04:53,000 but it kind of grew out of this of these exhibitions that you know, you would see in Europe and in the US in the early 2000s. 49 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,900 GB: It's kind of interesting about figures like Morimura because in a way, 50 00:04:56,900 --> 00:05:03,750 his popularity opened the door for a lot of lesser known figures to become better known. 51 00:05:03,750 --> 00:05:13,110 LF: Yeah, and and he was super nice. You know, I mean, I was just a student and I contacted him when I when I lived in Tokyo and 52 00:05:13,110 --> 00:05:16,170 he was happy to meet me and to tell me about his work. 53 00:05:16,170 --> 00:05:21,720 And so it was also kind of, you know, meeting artists that then make me really interested in, 54 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:26,440 you know, doing a PhD and following that whole that whole path. 55 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:36,120 GB: Now you had a book, I guess, based on this Ph.D. 'Ravens and red lipstick', Japanese art photography since 1945. 56 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:37,140 And I noticed that, oh, 57 00:05:37,140 --> 00:05:45,780 I know that one of the things that you argue in the book is that there's been a somewhat cliched understanding of Japanese photography since 1945. 58 00:05:45,780 --> 00:05:52,860 And you saw your book as attempting to provide a counter argument by providing a more contextual interpretation. 59 00:05:52,860 --> 00:05:56,220 but I'm just wondering what that means and how you think 60 00:05:56,220 --> 00:06:01,260 the book shifted our perception of Japanese photography since 45. 61 00:06:01,260 --> 00:06:05,160 LF: Yeah. So basically, I had already published my Ph.D. by that time 62 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:10,620 and so my Ph.D. is this like 350 pages book very academic, obviously. 63 00:06:10,620 --> 00:06:16,590 Andthe German system is basically you only get your doctor's title if you've published your thesis. 64 00:06:16,590 --> 00:06:24,630 So you have to, you know, kind of make sure that the thesis is readable and nice so you can actually publish it as a book. 65 00:06:24,630 --> 00:06:28,890 And that was earlier that was in 2012 that it came out. 66 00:06:28,890 --> 00:06:32,610 And so 'Ravens and red lipstick', which came out in 2018, 67 00:06:32,610 --> 00:06:40,170 was actually that I was trying to come up with a kind of introduction into Japanese photography in English. 68 00:06:40,170 --> 00:06:45,600 For people who don't know much about Japanese photography, but who might like Japanese photography, 69 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:51,060 who might have seen some Araki photographs and became curious and wanted to find out more. 70 00:06:51,060 --> 00:07:02,520 So it really is a kind of coffee table book. I call it a meaningful coffee table book, which is really, for wider audience, 71 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:09,210 as opposed to the kind of very academic PhD thesis that I wrote before. 72 00:07:09,210 --> 00:07:17,040 And yeah, I mean, there was no book that kind of tried to provide an overview on Japanese photography since 1945. 73 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,180 And of course, I could have done an even bigger project kind of going back further. 74 00:07:21,180 --> 00:07:27,240 But it just became too much. And so then I decided, OK, let's just focus on like as of 1945. 75 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:32,700 And to be honest, it also grew out because at the time I was still working at Tate Modern when we started thinking about the project, 76 00:07:32,700 --> 00:07:35,850 and Tate has quite a good collection of Japanese photographs. 77 00:07:35,850 --> 00:07:43,830 And so originally the idea was that I would really focus on Tate's holdings, and that kind of became a bit boring because I thought, 78 00:07:43,830 --> 00:07:50,010 why am I actually only focussing on the photographs that actually are in the collection? I would like to do this independently, and I want to 79 00:07:50,010 --> 00:07:55,590 be the one who chooses which photos I include rather than the institution. 80 00:07:55,590 --> 00:08:03,990 And then, yeah, and then it happened that actually, the head of publication editor at the time moved to Thames & Hudson. 81 00:08:03,990 --> 00:08:08,550 And so I thought, OK, why don't I just follow up with him? He likes the project. 82 00:08:08,550 --> 00:08:13,650 He's enthusiastic about it. Maybe we do a proper book out of it rather than a take book. 83 00:08:13,650 --> 00:08:16,350 And that's how it actually came about. 84 00:08:16,350 --> 00:08:23,910 GB: And you mentioned before the capacity to do interviews, and I know part of the book is interviews with the photographers. 85 00:08:23,910 --> 00:08:29,250 So is this for you an important tool research tool you find? 86 00:08:29,250 --> 00:08:31,530 LF: Yes, a very important research tool. 87 00:08:31,530 --> 00:08:40,950 And I guess particularly with Japanese art and artists that are of a certain generation, many Japanese artists don't speak any English. 88 00:08:40,950 --> 00:08:44,700 I mean, the younger generation people in their 20s and 30s, it has changed a bit. 89 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:48,960 But people who are older than that, usually they don't really speak any English. 90 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:56,400 And so they really appreciate if you speak their language and if you're interested in their work and they're so into the aesthetic, 91 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,700 So I just really enjoy talking to artists, I guess. 92 00:08:59,700 --> 00:09:05,820 And so therefore it's an important research tool and it's a it's a fun research tool as well. 93 00:09:05,820 --> 00:09:12,030 And I always think that art really comes to life. You know, when you talk to the artists. It's different 94 00:09:12,030 --> 00:09:19,770 when you kind of write an academic text, then I think it's actually really important to look at the works first and not only listen to the artist, 95 00:09:19,770 --> 00:09:27,600 but if it's something like, you know, write 'Ravens and Red lipstick', it has to be entertaining as well, and people are interested in the stories. 96 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:37,830 And so, yeah, it's probably my favourite part about the book, all those interviews GB: You had worked for a museum in Berlin, 97 00:09:37,830 --> 00:09:45,240 but I was wondering, were you looking to move to Britain and what was the difference between working 98 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:50,850 I know at a relatively low level as a curator in Berlin and then similarly, an assistant curator position here. 99 00:09:50,850 --> 00:09:56,940 Did you notice the difference between this sort of British museum scene and the German one? 100 00:09:56,940 --> 00:10:02,420 LF: Oh, that's a good question. I guess it's quite difficult because 101 00:10:02,420 --> 00:10:06,560 I only worked at the National Museums Berlin, first, and then the Director General 102 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:12,320 and then at Hamburger Bahnhof and then the post at Tate Modern came up, 103 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:17,050 which was an assistant curator role but with a focus on the Asia-Pacific region, 104 00:10:17,050 --> 00:10:23,720 and they were deliberately looking for someone who either speaks a Chinese language or a Japanese. 105 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:30,470 And so it was an opportunity to do something, you know, with art from that region. 106 00:10:30,470 --> 00:10:39,230 And there just not many posts out there where you can actually do, you know, Japanese and Korean and Chinese and what whole Asia Pacific region, 107 00:10:39,230 --> 00:10:47,570 including Australian art as well, actually, where you can do modern contemporary art with a focus on that area in Europe. 108 00:10:47,570 --> 00:10:51,200 So Tate was basically the only place where you could do something like that. 109 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:58,280 And so it was not so much a decision to come to the UK, but it was more a decision to come to Tate. 110 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:05,630 GB: I did notice that, you know, sort of broad range of projects while you're at Tate. 111 00:11:05,630 --> 00:11:11,300 Everything from Giacometti and Agnes Martin to say three Australian artists names. 112 00:11:11,300 --> 00:11:22,130 Of course I recognised. Now, is this a good thing or a bad thing to have those diversities, because it stretches so thin, did you find yourself losing scholarly substance? 113 00:11:22,130 --> 00:11:27,660 Or was it a really, I don't know, energising range of things to do? 114 00:11:27,660 --> 00:11:30,570 LF: Well, I think for me as a curator, it was really energising. 115 00:11:30,570 --> 00:11:38,820 It was really good because for the collection work, I was focussing on the Asia Pacific region, although, yeah, it's a massive region. 116 00:11:38,820 --> 00:11:43,650 But yes, so that was, you know, kind of that was all that I kind of really focussed on. 117 00:11:43,650 --> 00:11:48,120 But then for exhibition projects, I was basically assigned the Agnes Martin exhibition. 118 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,590 I didn't choose to work on that, but I was just assigned to it. 119 00:11:52,590 --> 00:11:57,180 And it was a great opportunity because I was not a big Agnes Martin fan before, but 120 00:11:57,180 --> 00:12:05,610 if you're forced to work, you know, and really focus on her work for two years, then you probably become an Agnes Martin fan. 121 00:12:05,610 --> 00:12:12,930 And it was a big show that then travelled to the Guggenheim and to Lakma and also to Dusseldorf, to the K20. 122 00:12:12,930 --> 00:12:18,900 So, you know, kind of working on such a big touring exhibition with these big international museum partners 123 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:26,700 for me at the time was a great and new experience and something where I really learnt a lot. 124 00:12:26,700 --> 00:12:31,170 Yes and I kind of kept focussing on that one area, but in terms of curatorial work, 125 00:12:31,170 --> 00:12:35,730 I'm quite glad that I've been able to work on really different projects. 126 00:12:35,730 --> 00:12:42,990 GB: Let me ask the difficult question about Agnes Martin, because it's often debated and will be debated by my students tomorrow as it happens. 127 00:12:42,990 --> 00:12:50,090 Does the sexuality matter to her art? Is that something that scholars or curators need to discuss or even mention? 128 00:12:50,090 --> 00:12:55,350 What's your view on this? LF: Probably not. 129 00:12:55,350 --> 00:13:00,010 I guess it depends on the focus of analysis. 130 00:13:00,010 --> 00:13:04,230 And if you know, 131 00:13:04,230 --> 00:13:12,720 it probably depends on what your essay or what your theme is when you're kind of looking at the works of art. In terms of an exhibition, 132 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,540 We kind of I remember that we had that debate. 133 00:13:15,540 --> 00:13:27,480 At what point do we actually mention her sexuality and also even more so her, you know, schizophrenia and her kind of mental problems. 134 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:36,690 And the exhibition at Tate, we decided to do that and room four so kind of, you know, people have the opportunity to first look at the works, 135 00:13:36,690 --> 00:13:44,250 we kind of introduced to work with kind of the most well known kind of works, you know, fairly late works, actually. 136 00:13:44,250 --> 00:13:51,070 And then we kind of started with, you know, chronological approach to show that this rather unknown, really early works, 137 00:13:51,070 --> 00:13:58,720 kind of her context also the idea, the other artists that she met and and then in the fourth room, 138 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:07,090 we kind of when she decides to really move away, be on her own to kind of, you know, live that kind of more reclusive lifestyle. 139 00:14:07,090 --> 00:14:10,660 That's the moment when actually mentioned, you know, she had kind of breakdown. 140 00:14:10,660 --> 00:14:15,100 That was the reason why she then left and decided to to live like that. 141 00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:20,680 So at that point when it kind of became important in the narrative, we mentioned it. 142 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,330 But before that we just thought it's not really necessary and important for the works of art. 143 00:14:25,330 --> 00:14:31,080 So why tell visitors all that? You know, it's kind of just makes it a bit kind of spectacular. 144 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:36,940 So it's not really important to understand the works of art GB: And her sexuality 145 00:14:36,940 --> 00:14:43,430 is it relevant to understanding her work or irrelevant? LF: I think it's probably looking at most of the works. 146 00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:48,320 I mean, it's probably irrelevant. Yeah, I mean, it's abstract. 147 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:55,370 It's not like she's kind of painting the female body or any kind of sexual encounters or anything like that. 148 00:14:55,370 --> 00:14:59,130 Not at all. 149 00:14:59,130 --> 00:15:05,620 GB: So. You joined the Ashmolean as its very first curator of modern and contemporary art. 150 00:15:05,620 --> 00:15:16,690 I'm just wondering what kind of changes in the Ashmolean zone self-conception did it require for them to imagine having a curator like yourself? 151 00:15:16,690 --> 00:15:23,350 LF: Well, I think they just really finally wanted to have someone who focuses on modern and contemporary art. 152 00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:30,070 And for me, it was just an opportunity to kind of get out of that really, you know, like contemporary art scene. 153 00:15:30,070 --> 00:15:34,270 And I thought it would be interesting to work somewhere where you have, you know, 154 00:15:34,270 --> 00:15:40,750 where you have art history together with kind of, you know, the modern and contemporary scene. 155 00:15:40,750 --> 00:15:42,670 And that was that was quite attractive for me. 156 00:15:42,670 --> 00:15:49,150 And then the link to the university was also something that I found attractive and that I actually missed a little bit at Tate 157 00:15:49,150 --> 00:15:57,010 Sometimes that, you know, when you kind of work so hard and it's such a fast paced kind of aggressive environment in a way. 158 00:15:57,010 --> 00:16:01,180 So I thought I sometimes missed, you know, just having time for research. 159 00:16:01,180 --> 00:16:06,500 And actually and I mean, I don't have that much time for myself to write, but a little bit more. 160 00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:12,940 You know, at least it's part of your job description and part of our role to do research so you can actually fight for it. 161 00:16:12,940 --> 00:16:19,600 And you can say, I need now time to write this essay and give me, you know, head space to do research. 162 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:24,790 GB: It must be interesting to, I mean, to be obviously a large part of the audience is not the university, 163 00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:31,270 but nevertheless the museum is constantly in conversation with different parts of the university and its community. 164 00:16:31,270 --> 00:16:37,300 But you must find it's a slightly different kind of audience that you have to engage. 165 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:45,880 LF: Yes. I mean, of course, it's a different audience, and it's also an audience that's also used to modern and contemporary art at the Ashmolean, 166 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:55,060 so that's sometimes a bit more challenging or colleagues who are kind of, you know, just not so used to it. 167 00:16:55,060 --> 00:16:58,120 GB: And is there a collection strategy in place? 168 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:04,030 I mean, is the Ashmolean now actively collecting modern and contemporary in a way that it hasn't in the past? 169 00:17:04,030 --> 00:17:10,360 Well, there was no collection strategy when I joined, so that was actually one of the first things that I kind of asked for and then that I 170 00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:15,940 wrote together consulting with all the different colleagues in the different departments. 171 00:17:15,940 --> 00:17:24,700 And well, basically, there are certain areas in the collection that are already quite interesting and where we then kind of try to build on. 172 00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:27,620 So, you know, modern Chinese ink paintings, 173 00:17:27,620 --> 00:17:33,460 that's an area that's already quite strong at the Ashmolean, that actually isn't so strong in any other UK museums. 174 00:17:33,460 --> 00:17:36,580 So that's an area that we continue to build on. 175 00:17:36,580 --> 00:17:46,270 And then German Neo Expressionist works on paper happen to be an area where actually we already had some holdings kind of randomly. 176 00:17:46,270 --> 00:17:50,140 And so I decided that that's an area that I would like to build on. 177 00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:55,300 So it was, yeah, always thinking about what do other museums in the country focus on and what do they do? 178 00:17:55,300 --> 00:18:00,580 And then also, of course, museums and Oxford, we don't want to really duplicate collections. 179 00:18:00,580 --> 00:18:05,350 And then you know what makes sense within the whole collection. 180 00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:08,350 And yeah, so it's kind of which sounds all very strategic. 181 00:18:08,350 --> 00:18:13,900 But of course, there are sometimes, you know, opportunities that arise and where you then don't really want to say no, 182 00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:18,340 although it doesn't really fit 100 percent into our collection strategy. 183 00:18:18,340 --> 00:18:25,150 GB: I mean, I'm just wondering then I mean, I know there's a room devoted to European American modernism. 184 00:18:25,150 --> 00:18:30,850 I can't remember too much American there, actually, but it's given the overall shape of the Ashmolean. 185 00:18:30,850 --> 00:18:40,090 It's a pretty minor element. But is there a plan to build that up into a larger proportion of the museum's exhibition weight? 186 00:18:40,090 --> 00:18:45,880 If you know what I mean? GB: For the exhibitions, I think not so much, but for displays. 187 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:50,770 I mean, you know, there are also things that we have in storage that are never on view. 188 00:18:50,770 --> 00:18:54,550 So that's something I think for the future that the museum is thinking about. 189 00:18:54,550 --> 00:19:03,760 How can we show more of what we actually have? Are our spaces enough and so there are all these different conversations. 190 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:10,810 It's important to kind of be strategic about it as much as we can, 191 00:19:10,810 --> 00:19:16,540 because otherwise we just have these random collections that can't really be just displayed together. 192 00:19:16,540 --> 00:19:21,810 GB: Yeah, yeah. Of course. You've had an opportunity to do a few temporary exhibitions. 193 00:19:21,810 --> 00:19:28,150 I did want to ask you about one of them, the the one of the work of the Sudanese artist Ibrahim El Salahi, 194 00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:32,680 who caught my eye because he's kind of a part of a generation of Commonwealth 195 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,440 artists who came to England to study and then went back to their own countries, 196 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,860 and both Australians and New Zealanders who were probably in conversation with El Salahi 197 00:19:41,860 --> 00:19:46,720 when he was here. How did that exhibition come about? 198 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,910 And I'm just wondering how you, for example, 199 00:19:48,910 --> 00:19:55,840 place that exhibition in relation to the Ashmolean collections and then I'm just interested in that show in particular. 200 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,200 LF: Mm-Hmm. Yes, that was my first exhibition that I did at the Ashmolean, 201 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:04,330 and that was also kind of a in a way, strategic decision or something that I kind of I don't, 202 00:20:04,330 --> 00:20:11,990 you know, it was my little message because it was the first show by a black artist at the museum. 203 00:20:11,990 --> 00:20:16,720 And he had, I mean, the main reason to show him. 204 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:22,000 One of the main reasons to show him was that he's actually based in Oxford and that he has been living for over 20 years in Oxford. 205 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,390 And so there's this artist who's shown, you know, 206 00:20:25,390 --> 00:20:31,210 he had quite a big moment where he has been better known and the kind of contemporary art world since about ten years ago. 207 00:20:31,210 --> 00:20:34,810 And so I thought, well, why does he have actually a big retrospective at Tate Modern? 208 00:20:34,810 --> 00:20:40,330 He actually was also yet the first [INAUDIBLE] 209 00:20:40,330 --> 00:20:45,910 [INAUDIBLE] 210 00:20:45,910 --> 00:20:50,500 And, you know, at other places, and he's in the collection of MoMA and you know, all these big museums have his work, 211 00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:57,220 but he has been living in Oxford for a long time, and Oxford doesn't really show his work and it's his hometown. 212 00:20:57,220 --> 00:21:01,750 And so that really was one of the reasons why I thought we have to show his work. 213 00:21:01,750 --> 00:21:05,440 And I really like his work, and he's quite elderly. 214 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:11,800 So it also felt, you know, it's it's time to do this now. Well, he's still alive and what we can talk to him. 215 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:17,530 And then the other reason was that we wanted to do something that kind of links to the museum. 216 00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:22,870 Of course. I mean, all the shows that we do, we try to kind of, you know, we always say, 217 00:21:22,870 --> 00:21:30,370 why this exhibition now and why at the museum and to why at the Ashmolean for Ibrahim was not only that, 218 00:21:30,370 --> 00:21:37,600 because he's based in Oxford, but also because we have a really good collection of ancient Sudanese material, and he's really interested. 219 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,620 I knew that he was really interested in these ancient Sudanese collections. 220 00:21:41,620 --> 00:21:50,960 And so he came in here to look at the works, and so we exhibited his work alongside some ancient Sudanese 221 00:21:50,960 --> 00:22:00,710 objects so worked closely together with them, my colleague Liam, from the from the Antiquities Department of the Museum. 222 00:22:00,710 --> 00:22:01,310 And yeah, 223 00:22:01,310 --> 00:22:11,270 so it became a project that can only be done at the Ashmolean and that can't be done at MoMA or its or any other kind of white cube alignment. 224 00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:18,020 And I think that was quite refreshing to see his work in that context. So nice to work with him. 225 00:22:18,020 --> 00:22:25,850 GB: Yeah. You know, I think of him among a range of other similar artists who represent a kind of regional modernism or local modernism, 226 00:22:25,850 --> 00:22:31,760 rather than international high modernism that most like Tate Modern and MoMA tend to privilege. 227 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:39,530 So I'm just wondering whether that could be one of the roles the Ashmolean plays in its modern and contemporary exhibitions is to 228 00:22:39,530 --> 00:22:45,740 showcase these kind of regional modernisms that otherwise don't get much attention. 229 00:22:45,740 --> 00:22:56,570 LF: I guess if they link to the collection, then yes, you know, there is already something in our more historic collections that can justify that. 230 00:22:56,570 --> 00:23:05,150 I think then, yes, definitely. And I'm very glad that we actually acquired a few works by Ibrahim after the exhibition. 231 00:23:05,150 --> 00:23:08,960 But of course, the question is always Where do I now show those works? 232 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:19,810 So I have them in the ancient Sudanese gallery. It is like the works just before it happens and just before the first lockdown, 233 00:23:19,810 --> 00:23:24,760 so they went on view for quite a while, but not that many people probably noticed them. 234 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:31,520 But you know, basically at the moment the only place where I can show them because they don't really fit anywhere else in the museum. 235 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:38,200 Yes. And that's, you know, sometimes that that's then also the the trouble because I always want to acquire something. 236 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:45,970 I wonder, how can we actually show this? And if we can't ever show it, that's a bit tricky to actually acquire it. 237 00:23:45,970 --> 00:23:50,410 GB: It's like most other means most museums around the world, the Ashmolean, there's more space. 238 00:23:50,410 --> 00:23:55,720 That's a bigger conversation, maybe. So let's talk about let's talk about the space you're filling now. 239 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:02,440 You and Claire Pollard have co-curated Tokyo art and photography, amazing reviews. 240 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,460 And when I've been in there, lots of enthusiastic audience, which is fantastic. 241 00:24:06,460 --> 00:24:11,690 But of course, the obvious question speaking as a photo person is why the 'and'? 242 00:24:11,690 --> 00:24:20,400 LF: I know. Well, the Turkish art and photography is the title of the exhibition, and it is a bit of a stupid title. 243 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:27,070 Look, you have to think about marketing. So we thought if we say because we were thinking about. 244 00:24:27,070 --> 00:24:32,620 So originally, the title was supposed to be Tokyo stories, which is, you know, the name of a famous film. 245 00:24:32,620 --> 00:24:36,970 And we thought it kind of conveys very nicely that 246 00:24:36,970 --> 00:24:41,050 We wanted to have a kind of narrative approach where it's all about different stories in the cities, 247 00:24:41,050 --> 00:24:46,510 not one story, but different stories, different points or people, you know? 248 00:24:46,510 --> 00:24:56,230 And then I think, Oh yeah, then actually turns out that there was a photo show in Paris by Mark... 249 00:24:56,230 --> 00:25:00,520 Well, a Japanese photo specialist actually with the same title. 250 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,170 Tokyo stories. So I thought, OK, that's not ideal really to choose the same title. 251 00:25:05,170 --> 00:25:09,970 And then also we have, you know, all these lengthy conversations with our marketing colleagues. 252 00:25:09,970 --> 00:25:10,480 And in the end, 253 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:16,540 Tokyo stories just didn't seem strong enough because it also sounded a little bit like it could be a literature exhibition or something, 254 00:25:16,540 --> 00:25:24,040 you know, with books or so and not really an art exhibition. So if it's an art exhibition, you should have the word art in there, 255 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,610 maybe because otherwise people might also think it's a kind of architectural structure, 256 00:25:27,610 --> 00:25:30,910 or it's just all about kind of the urban structure of the city. 257 00:25:30,910 --> 00:25:36,040 So Tokyo art, and then I thought, OK, well, there's going to be a lot of photography in it. 258 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:42,610 We should put photography into the title just so people know. And then that's how art and photography then came about. 259 00:25:42,610 --> 00:25:45,010 And we thought, art sounds very kind of timeless 260 00:25:45,010 --> 00:25:54,670 Whereas photography, obviously, by the nature of the photographic medium suggests it's not 16th century work, but it's actually more modern. 261 00:25:54,670 --> 00:26:01,840 And so in the title, we kind of also have the title suggests that it's an exhibition that has historic works in it, 262 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:08,650 but definitely also modern and contemporary works, and that's how we chose the title. 263 00:26:08,650 --> 00:26:12,880 GB: It's amazing the back story to these seemingly obvious things. 264 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:18,340 So, you know, as I'm walking through, I'm thinking, I'm trying to think as a fellow curator, 265 00:26:18,340 --> 00:26:22,930 how you and Claire would have strategized how you were going to deal with this challenge. 266 00:26:22,930 --> 00:26:29,470 How do you tell the story of a city that's several hundred years old, inhabited by thirty seven million people? 267 00:26:29,470 --> 00:26:34,360 It's obviously huge and vast and diverse, and I presume your first decision was, well, 268 00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:41,380 we're not going to just tell a chronological survey type story, but you chose instead three themes. 269 00:26:41,380 --> 00:26:44,380 Perhaps you could briefly describe what those themes are, 270 00:26:44,380 --> 00:26:50,530 but also why you thought those three themes were the most appropriate ones to organise an exhibition around. 271 00:26:50,530 --> 00:26:55,960 LF: So the themes are the city, then people, people living in the city and their lives in the city. 272 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,810 And then the third theme is artistic innovation. 273 00:26:58,810 --> 00:27:04,510 The first one suggests the city as in the urban structure and kind of how how does the city actually look like? 274 00:27:04,510 --> 00:27:06,370 That was fairly obvious that, you know, 275 00:27:06,370 --> 00:27:12,430 we wanted to kind of introduce the city also to people who might have never been to Tokyo or who just really like, 276 00:27:12,430 --> 00:27:20,930 you know, depictions of the city. And the people, was fairly straightforward because we, you know, I mentioned Tokyo stories before. 277 00:27:20,930 --> 00:27:24,950 So it was all about kind of the stories of the city, the stories of the people. 278 00:27:24,950 --> 00:27:32,680 And so this narrative elements, it all comes down to the people as well as an artistic innovation is everything in a way. 279 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:40,840 So the third room was really at the third theme is a bit of a, kind of well, we have three rooms in the exhibition. 280 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:46,900 So that's basically by -the architecture of the museum is - you have three main rooms. 281 00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:52,690 And so there was a time when we were thinking, should we have three or four themes? And then we decided, Okay, let's just stick to three themes. 282 00:27:52,690 --> 00:28:00,790 So it's really kind of obvious when you got to walk from one room to the other that then that kind of next chapter of the exhibition starts. 283 00:28:00,790 --> 00:28:06,520 But yeah, the artistic innovation one that was the one that we thought about the longest and which is, yeah, 284 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:13,270 it's not the perfect thing because obviously there are works in the first two rooms that are innovative artistically as well. 285 00:28:13,270 --> 00:28:22,340 But it was also. Is it kind of modern and contemporary works in there just to find that they just, you know, 286 00:28:22,340 --> 00:28:25,950 they have to be in that because they're very innovative and they're very avant garde. 287 00:28:25,950 --> 00:28:32,760 And we wanted to show that Tokyo, you know, really became a kind of hub for international artists and for, 288 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:38,850 because I think it's a kind of global art history story often suggests that after the war, 289 00:28:38,850 --> 00:28:47,040 it was New York where everything happened and other big kind of cities get forgotten a bit. Particularly more Asian cities 290 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,450 where actually there was a lot of exchange between different artists and artists from different backgrounds. 291 00:28:51,450 --> 00:28:58,770 And so we wanted to really highlight Tokyo as a hub of innovation and avant-garde artists as well. 292 00:28:58,770 --> 00:29:04,500 GB: I mean, I can understand that, but when you do go into the fourth room, I mean, a lot of the art on display, 293 00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:12,240 not all of it, but a lot of it seems to reference offshore, you know, psychedelic posters or surrealism. 294 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,040 you begin to see the influence of European art on Japanese art. 295 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:24,000 So perhaps you could explain to us what exactly constitutes innovation in this sense? 296 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,470 I mean, in other words, up to that point, it seems very Japanese centric. 297 00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:33,630 Most of the work we've seen in the first two rooms, but when we get to the artistic innovation section, 298 00:29:33,630 --> 00:29:37,860 the work begins to look more international if that's an appropriate word for it. 299 00:29:37,860 --> 00:29:42,000 LF: Mm-Hmm. Yes. Well, I guess it's kind of, you know, it was. 300 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,780 It's also about artistic exchange that we kind of wanted to show. 301 00:29:45,780 --> 00:29:55,710 So of course, there's the Western influence, but maybe also, you know, kind of the linking of Japanese tradition with new influences. 302 00:29:55,710 --> 00:30:00,890 And for, you know, for example, those those kind of surrealist works. 303 00:30:00,890 --> 00:30:08,690 For me, it was quite key to include those to also show, you know, that there were these surrealist works actually made in Japan. 304 00:30:08,690 --> 00:30:16,160 Many people don't know that many people associate surrealism really only with France and Paris, and, you know, not really beyond that. 305 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:24,830 And now there's this kind of interest in global surrealism. And there's research in that field and there are exhibitions that are coming up now. 306 00:30:24,830 --> 00:30:31,370 And so it was kind of key for me to include those plaques to show that there was actually interest in surrealism. 307 00:30:31,370 --> 00:30:37,640 And it's a very specific, unique style. It's not just surrealist, it's actually very Japanese. 308 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:42,590 So I guess that's where the innovation part comes in. 309 00:30:42,590 --> 00:30:47,300 And yeah, innovation also in terms of, yes, the artistic exchange. 310 00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:59,000 I still think that the works are very uniquely Japanese, despite showing influences from from other other cultures. 311 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,890 GB: Is that the case even with the psychedelic wall? LF: The pop wall? 312 00:31:03,890 --> 00:31:14,180 So the Tokyo pop wall. Well, if we look at I mean, they're extremely two dimensional, which is traditionally Japanese. 313 00:31:14,180 --> 00:31:20,510 So in a way, you could argue that it was Japan was even before Western art history, 314 00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:25,880 they were more modern because they were, you know, they were always abstract. In that sense, there were always two dimensional. 315 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:31,640 It was they were never trying to be realist like the Europeans. 316 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:40,040 So I guess, you know, that kind of pop aesthetic just just found a perfect context in Japanese art history because it 317 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:47,570 was already really flat and it linked very nicely with that kind of woodblock print aesthetic. 318 00:31:47,570 --> 00:31:52,340 GB: I was imagining that you and Claire had some sleepless nights during the pandemic. 319 00:31:52,340 --> 00:31:56,510 It's a very difficult situation in which to organise an exhibition. 320 00:31:56,510 --> 00:32:02,180 Were there any key loans that you were unable to get, either because of the pandemic or for any other reason? 321 00:32:02,180 --> 00:32:07,550 LF: Yes, I mean, there are two main kind of challenges. 322 00:32:07,550 --> 00:32:14,360 And so one was there was loans from other countries that we had to just cut because of financial reasons. 323 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:20,210 So we had a few important works from other European collections that we couldn't include. 324 00:32:20,210 --> 00:32:26,190 And then we also had works that were all for the same reason just weren't financially too difficult. 325 00:32:26,190 --> 00:32:31,400 So, for example, we had works by a woman artist, Matsui Fuyuko, 326 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,260 who is now represented in the show with one rather small work, in the last three images 327 00:32:36,260 --> 00:32:42,410 This kind of angel that's kind of, you know, kind of opening up its body, very kind of dark work. 328 00:32:42,410 --> 00:32:49,460 And originally we wanted to have more key works by this artist, actually three large screens, 329 00:32:49,460 --> 00:32:57,350 but because we would have had to build a kind of glass in front of those glass to protect them appropriately. 330 00:32:57,350 --> 00:33:03,590 It would have been a really expensive thing to do. And so, yeah, there were massive budget cuts, of course, 331 00:33:03,590 --> 00:33:08,300 because if you can't have as many people in the exhibition sell as many tickets 332 00:33:08,300 --> 00:33:12,530 means the exhibition budget is smaller and then you have to work with that. 333 00:33:12,530 --> 00:33:20,090 And then the other issue was also just thinking about visitor flow and to enable more social distancing. 334 00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:26,000 So it could have been that, you know, we didn't really know what the situation would be when we opened at the end of July. 335 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:32,360 So it could have been that, you know, we would have had to be even more strict about kind of visitor numbers and all that. 336 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:39,800 So it was important to keep enough space and also in terms of the design at the kind of architecture. 337 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,170 But to be honest, in a way, I quite like minimal design anyway. 338 00:33:43,170 --> 00:33:47,780 So sometimes it was actually easier for me because I then had an argument and could say, Oh, 339 00:33:47,780 --> 00:33:56,120 we can't really do this because it's too expensive and we need to think about space and visitors need space now because of Covid. 340 00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,230 So, yeah, but yeah, it was challenging, of course. Yeah, yeah. 341 00:34:00,230 --> 00:34:07,730 GB: Now, I mean, the other thing that struck me when I first went was how the experience of the exhibition cut across, 342 00:34:07,730 --> 00:34:11,270 perhaps even my own expectations about Tokyo, a city I have been to. 343 00:34:11,270 --> 00:34:20,840 But I came away from it thinking, yeah, very clean, very orderly, high degree of social etiquette and decorum. 344 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,410 But when I came through your exhibition, I offered witness the other to 345 00:34:24,410 --> 00:34:31,760 All of those things: chaos, destruction, social edginess. 346 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:38,270 So I was wondering whether you include deliberately tried to counter this clichéd view of Tokyo or whether this, 347 00:34:38,270 --> 00:34:45,400 in fact, is the way Tokyo was being represented by its artists. And it just we in the West prefer not to see it that way. 348 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,080 LF: I think countering cliches was super important to us, for sure. 349 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,440 I mean, for me, as I mentioned, you know, I used to live in Japan as a child, 350 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:59,710 so I really know Japan quite well and I've been going back, you know, basically, yeah, all the time. 351 00:34:59,710 --> 00:35:01,840 I've lived there many times. I've gone back many times since. 352 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:09,880 So it's important to me to not do the kind of cliche exhibition where you just, you know, celebrate all those stereotypes that visitors want to see. 353 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:15,940 So that was very important to me, but it was also equally important to Claire. We both said we didn't want to- in Japanese you say 354 00:35:15,940 --> 00:35:17,410 You say, Fujiyama Geisha? 355 00:35:17,410 --> 00:35:25,120 So the kind of, you know, Western, if you show the pretty side of the mountain and you show Geisha and you know, we didn't want that. 356 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:34,270 So that was important. And for for Tokyo, I guess there's also this image that it's a super futuristic kind of Blade Runner style city, 357 00:35:34,270 --> 00:35:38,080 although it depends on which generation of you know, you talk to. 358 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:44,530 The younger people might not see it like that anymore, but you know, slightly the older people maybe have that kind of image. 359 00:35:44,530 --> 00:35:48,080 And yeah, that's one side of Tokyo, but there is also a very different side. 360 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:53,590 And so, yeah, it was important to show different views of the city and to talk to artists. 361 00:35:53,590 --> 00:35:57,820 So for me, you know, talking back, coming back to the whole interview points, 362 00:35:57,820 --> 00:36:05,680 it was always a key feature for me in the book and also in the exhibition that I asked all the living artists what Tokyo means to them. 363 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:11,790 And I tried to include their own quotes as much as I could, also on the labels just to get their voices across. 364 00:36:11,790 --> 00:36:16,690 And so it's because we are both, you know, not despite our close relationship with Japan. 365 00:36:16,690 --> 00:36:22,180 We both not Japanese. So it was important to have these Japanese voices in there as well. 366 00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:27,880 GB: Yeah, I mean, you have a major installation by Daido Moriyama. 367 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:34,810 Was he the patron saint of the exhibition? Because I did wonder whether his sort of I'm going to call it existential aesthetic was 368 00:36:34,810 --> 00:36:38,950 something that you and Claire kind of tried to extend to the exhibition as a whole. 369 00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:45,340 There's a very physical quality to the way, well, the way we encounter his photographs, with the way he takes them. 370 00:36:45,340 --> 00:36:48,760 And there's something quite physical about moving through that exhibition. 371 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,620 It's almost like you're assaulted in some places by, I don't know, just the sheer number of images, 372 00:36:53,620 --> 00:37:00,300 but also that that sense of chaos and danger that many of the works seem to convey. 373 00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:04,840 LF: it's interesting that you say that because I haven't really have really thought about it that way. 374 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,670 But yeah, I mean, for me, thinking about photography and Tokyo, Moriyama was, of course, 375 00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:15,040 kind of a key figure because he's he's like so intertwined with the city and he walks around the city. 376 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:22,420 And so much of his work is about Tokyo and well same with Araki I guess, I mean, there's some photographers where it's just, 377 00:37:22,420 --> 00:37:26,830 you know, they are so active in Tokyo, and so much about their work 378 00:37:26,830 --> 00:37:28,360 It's about the city. 379 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:38,530 So, yeah, it was important to to include Moriyama, and I thought, Well, Araki is so well known already in the West, and Moriyama 380 00:37:38,530 --> 00:37:42,280 in the photography world is also already very well known, 381 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:48,760 but I thought that Oxford probably he isn't or the kind of general rider kind of artsy, he probably isn't. 382 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:57,610 So I wanted to, you know, kind of feature his work quite prominently. It conveys the atmosphere of Tokyo quite well. 383 00:37:57,610 --> 00:38:06,400 GB: I think his quite Moriyama is one of those figures where people in the art world can identify one picture the one of the dog. 384 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:13,140 But I don't think many people are actually that familiar with the range of his work or the diversity of his work really well. 385 00:38:13,140 --> 00:38:19,720 So what I was thinking about laner is, for example, is the interplay, the conversation between the prints, 386 00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:24,610 which often 19th century and the photographs, which are most of the 20th century. 387 00:38:24,610 --> 00:38:30,430 The prints are often somewhat stately and beautifully, I mean, in terms of the way they compose beautifully composed. 388 00:38:30,430 --> 00:38:36,460 There is a kind of serenity to them, but whenever I came to a bank of photographs, it's like a very different aesthetic, 389 00:38:36,460 --> 00:38:42,790 as if the photographer is almost running against the grain of traditional Japanese printmaking traditions. 390 00:38:42,790 --> 00:38:49,420 So I wonder if , as curators, one in one invested in printmaking and the other were interested in photography, 391 00:38:49,420 --> 00:38:54,010 whether you noticed that conversation as you were hanging the show. 392 00:38:54,010 --> 00:38:59,210 LF: Yeah, for sure, and we often, you know, when we were looking at the workplace. 393 00:38:59,210 --> 00:39:03,620 And you already kind of noticed there's like little, you know, 394 00:39:03,620 --> 00:39:09,860 kind of comparisons and similarities and also really strong juxtapositions and be quite like that because the city is, 395 00:39:09,860 --> 00:39:15,600 you know, it is full of kind of juxtapositions. And so we thought, why not? 396 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:22,800 GB: And this is a question, do you feel like you learnt something in doing the exhibition that you didn't already know? 397 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:29,250 Because obviously one of the richness of the exhibition is a constant reminder of how rich the Ashmolean's own collections are. 398 00:39:29,250 --> 00:39:35,520 So I'm sure that as you and Claire are putting together a checklist, you're thinking, Oh, we must use that screen and we must. 399 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,270 But I'm wondering if you felt at the end of the show you would actually learn something about, 400 00:39:39,270 --> 00:39:50,690 for example, Japan or Japanese art that you hadn't already known. LF: Well, I learnt from Claire because I'm not a woodblock print specialist. 401 00:39:50,690 --> 00:39:56,150 And so I definitely learnt about kind of more historic art from her. 402 00:39:56,150 --> 00:40:01,320 And I think for her, she was not so familiar with with the modern contemporary side of things. 403 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:08,000 So in that sense, you know, just two curators working together who kind of learn from each other. 404 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,560 That was that was really nice, actually was a really good experience because I'm sure, as you know, 405 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:20,210 kind of not always, if you kind of co-curator show it's a very harmonious, friendly, nice experience. 406 00:40:20,210 --> 00:40:28,870 For us it really was. GB: Yeah, I was going to ask you whether co-creating is more difficult than single curating, but I guess there's benefits and tensions. 407 00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:34,400 LF: I find it more difficult. Usually, I find quite co-curating more difficult. 408 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:40,700 But, you know, speaking from experience, kind of working with other big, you know, estates, 409 00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:46,190 for example, Artists Estates who are then, you know, involved or so it can be quite tricky. 410 00:40:46,190 --> 00:40:48,680 But with with Claire and I, because also, I mean, 411 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:57,410 it's so clear kind of where our different expertise lies that it's very easy to then just trust each other and have a good conversation. 412 00:40:57,410 --> 00:41:03,260 So no, for us in this case, it was way too easy, but usually I find it easier to just do it on my own. 413 00:41:03,260 --> 00:41:08,090 GB: Yeah. And why did you think there was a need for, for example, for a set of samurai armour? 414 00:41:08,090 --> 00:41:11,720 I mean, was that a necessary component or it just happened? 415 00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:15,440 We happened to have one in the collection? LF: No, we thought it is actually. 416 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:21,140 I mean, of course, you know, if you do an exhibition like this and it's a summer exhibition, then you also need to please different visitors. 417 00:41:21,140 --> 00:41:30,100 And so. Amurai Armour, we thought was expected by some visitors, but we also thought it's important to show, you know, 418 00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:35,380 the link between Japanese art and samurai because many people don't really, 419 00:41:35,380 --> 00:41:40,000 know that they're, you know how closely associated there was Japanese culture. 420 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:46,690 They just see them as warriors. But you know, they were art patrons and and they did the tea ceremony and so, 421 00:41:46,690 --> 00:41:50,920 we wanted to show that at least, you know, represent that at least a little bit. 422 GB: I mean, the other sort of theme strong themes are the theatrical world. 423 00:41:57,910 --> 00:42:03,470 And I don't know what you call the red light areas. Love hotels, prostitution. 424 00:42:03,470 --> 00:42:07,680 They seem to be themes, at least that catch my eye as I'm wandering through. 425 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,800 Are these things that Japanese artists have themselves been obsessed with? 426 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:21,280 Or are these things that you thought, as I say before, counteract our notion of Tokyo is kind of neat and socially decorous. 427 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,920 LF: I think both and well. 428 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:32,590 But then also there is, of course, a bit of a cliche of Tokyo as being the kind of crazy, you know, city and crazy subculture city. 429 00:42:32,590 --> 00:42:43,450 So we tried to be careful not to focus on that too much because Japan often has been kind of depicted as very, very sexual in a way. 430 00:42:43,450 --> 00:42:51,160 And we didn't want to overdo that. But at the same time, we did want to hide it because it is an important part of the photography world. 431 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:59,080 For example, you know, the kind of more erotic photography and then the shunpon in terms of the erotic books that pornographic books, 432 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:09,550 that's an important part of woodblock printing culture. So, yeah, it was important to us to show it, but it was not easy, we were always kind of thinking, 433 00:43:09,550 --> 00:43:17,080 how much do we show it and how can we make sure it's not kind of, you know, it doesn't become too cliché again? 434 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:18,750 But yeah, it's interesting. 435 00:43:18,750 --> 00:43:25,740 That you say, you know, I would have thought that you might actually have associated that with Tokyo or with Japanese culture because some people do. 436 00:43:25,740 --> 00:43:32,250 So it's actually interesting that you say, you know, your image of it is kind of more neat and you didn't really expect that side. 437 00:43:32,250 --> 00:43:39,600 GB: Well, I'm very aware and I was very aware in the short time that I was there, of the importance of social decorum. 438 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,980 And when I came to the exhibition, I was very aware of the lack of it. 439 00:43:43,980 --> 00:43:48,360 You know, teenage chases rats around the street and mock weddings. 440 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:54,640 And, you know, it was seemed to be very not decorum. A lot of the time. 441 00:43:54,640 --> 00:44:00,010 LF: But I guess the Japanese, 442 00:44:00,010 --> 00:44:08,320 The Japanese art world has often been a bit kind of counter, and I think in Japan also particularly at least in the 20th century, 443 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:14,950 the the art scene has, or the art world has been an opportunity to for people to kind of escape that kind of, you know, 444 00:44:14,950 --> 00:44:23,950 kind of really rigid kind of socially you know, kind of categorised and fixed system. 445 00:44:23,950 --> 00:44:29,980 If you are an artist, you have a lot more freedom. You can do whatever you want, if it's in that context. 446 00:44:29,980 --> 00:44:32,800 GB: Yeah, we've got about 15 minutes to go. 447 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:40,090 So if any of our listeners have questions for Lena, please feel free to put them in the chat and I'll be happy to ask her them. 448 00:44:40,090 --> 00:44:43,930 So you might start writing those out now while I ask for a couple of other questions. 449 00:44:43,930 --> 00:44:51,490 I'm interested in the role of the catalogue in this exhibition Lena, because it seems to extend sort of beyond - 450 00:44:51,490 --> 00:44:56,800 Speaking of Tokyo and constant shaking - the catalogue seems to extend 451 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:01,450 beyond the boundaries of the exhibition in a number of kind of interesting ways, 452 00:45:01,450 --> 00:45:06,280 and it has a range of authors not just you and Claire, but a number of other voices. 453 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:15,780 Could you tell us how you two conceived the catalogue and how you see it in relation to the exhibition? 454 00:45:15,780 --> 00:45:21,840 LF: Well, I guess one reason to to kind of put all these different kind of themes into the catalogue 455 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:26,040 that we couldn't put into the exhibition was just the space of the exhibition. Tokyo. 456 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:33,330 It's just such a massive, massive city and there's so many interesting works of art and culturally, it's just such a vibrant place. 457 00:45:33,330 --> 00:45:38,310 You know, do justice to that and three Rooms. 458 00:45:38,310 --> 00:45:46,470 So we thought, okay, the book is an opportunity to do to go beyond the space that we have in the museum. 459 00:45:46,470 --> 00:45:50,700 And then I think one reason is also, I just really like nice books. 460 00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:57,990 So, you know I was I quite like coming up with these beautiful books, that kind of- books last. 461 00:45:57,990 --> 00:46:01,800 You can look at them years later after the exhibition. 462 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:09,600 And so Claire and I both really wanted to to create a book that doesn't look like a classic exhibition catalogue, where you know, 463 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:20,340 you have the work lists and then a kind of entry, maybe about each individual work beside that. We actually use quite a lot at the at the Ashmolean. 464 00:46:20,340 --> 00:46:28,770 And I mean, thank God that we chose this, this kind of free approach because, you know, with the changes in the work list due to COVID, 465 00:46:28,770 --> 00:46:34,410 it would have been much more difficult to do an exhibition catalogue that's really based on the works in the exhibition. 466 00:46:34,410 --> 00:46:39,510 Whereas this way doesn't really matter there are, you know, works in the in the book that in the end, 467 00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:44,850 we couldn't show in the exhibition, but you know, it doesn't matter. 468 00:46:44,850 --> 00:46:52,420 And yeah again, it's kind of the whole idea of a kind of meaningful coffee table book that I mentioned before for my 'Ravens and red lipstick' book. 469 00:46:52,420 --> 00:46:55,290 I think that can be found in this one as well. 470 00:46:55,290 --> 00:47:03,660 Certainly with the pink edges that we chose, you know. GB: I was going to ask about that, I overheard you saying that you pushed for that. 471 00:47:03,660 --> 00:47:11,520 Why would you think that was an important element - the pink edges? LF: Oh, well, the pink edges represent kind of good design, I guess. 472 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:19,050 So just pushing for a good design because of course, there are kind of museum standards and kind of certain kind of guidelines, 473 00:47:19,050 --> 00:47:24,180 and you have to fit into a certain template, which is not always easy for me. 474 00:47:24,180 --> 00:47:31,170 When people tell me what to do, I kind of get it bit, you know, I want to do something different just by nature. 475 00:47:31,170 --> 00:47:38,520 But so we work closely with a really, really good designer, Sarah Boris, who also designed my 'Ravens and red lipstick' book. 476 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:43,620 And she came up with this idea of doing something really funky and kind of neon colours. 477 00:47:43,620 --> 00:47:52,290 And we thought it actually it works really well and makes the book a bit special just, you know, as an object. 478 00:47:52,290 --> 00:47:57,810 GB: Now it's again struck me as a visitor to the Ashmolean that this exhibition comprised 479 00:47:57,810 --> 00:48:02,880 of quite so much photography as the Ash doesn't officially collect photographs. 480 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:10,230 So how does the temporary exhibition programme correspond with the collecting policy of the museum? 481 00:48:10,230 --> 00:48:17,670 LF: Well, I think it complements the collection strategy, so we try to do that we can't do in the collection, 482 00:48:17,670 --> 00:48:24,060 and that wouldn't really make sense to do it in the collection at this stage. You know, just now start collecting photographs. 483 00:48:24,060 --> 00:48:28,470 You know, we have so few photographs in the collection now, it doesn't really make sense, 484 00:48:28,470 --> 00:48:35,880 particularly considering that the Bodleian, for example, has a strength in photography. 485 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:40,290 So, you know, we think about other museums and other collections in Oxford, 486 00:48:40,290 --> 00:48:47,370 but it doesn't mean that we can't do exhibitions that feature things that we don't have in the collection. 487 00:48:47,370 --> 00:48:54,150 So I think the exhibition programme is something that can complement the collection and the displays. 488 00:48:54,150 --> 00:48:58,230 GB: And have you found that - because you mentioned that you collected some El-Salahi work 489 00:48:58,230 --> 00:49:09,350 in conjunction with that exhibition - have things come into to the Ashmolean permanent collection as a result of this exhibition as well? 490 00:49:09,350 --> 00:49:16,160 LF: Yes, so there are a few prints that Claire actually acquired already thinking about the exhibition. 491 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:20,790 So sometimes it's easier to then acquire something than borrowing it. 492 00:49:20,790 --> 00:49:24,990 So there was a Namatsue. So one of the catfish prints, you know, 493 00:49:24,990 --> 00:49:29,630 the catfish that was seen as a that they believed they used to think is a kind 494 00:49:29,630 --> 00:49:34,640 of as a mythological figure that would cause earthquakes under the Earth. 495 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:42,320 And so something that was key for us to include in the exhibition and there was a loan that we wanted to get, but that fell through. 496 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:46,310 And then thankfully, Claire found actually a print that she could acquire. 497 00:49:46,310 --> 00:49:54,170 So that's something that kind of came out of the exhibition. But yeah, there are also artists who now have offered their work. 498 00:49:54,170 --> 00:49:59,030 So I can already say because this has been confirmed that the Mohri Yuko photographs 499 00:49:59,030 --> 00:50:03,590 the photographs of the leaks in the underground stations. 500 00:50:03,590 --> 00:50:14,320 She has offered those to our collection and we, as you said, we don't really collect. 501 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:21,490 we don't collect photographs unless they relate directly to the Ashmolean in one way or another, 502 00:50:21,490 --> 00:50:25,870 and we thought actually those works quite make sense in the collection because they can also be 503 00:50:25,870 --> 00:50:31,750 shown very nicely alongside some of the historic woodblock prints in like thematic displays. 504 00:50:31,750 --> 00:50:35,800 And so we've decided to accept them, and that's really wonderful. 505 00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:41,200 GB: And when they are collected, are they collected under the rubric of Japanese art or under modern and contemporary art. 506 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,760 I mean, are they in the eastern art department? 507 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:49,750 LF: Yes. So I mean, the structure of the museum is, of course, has grown. 508 00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:55,630 You know, it has a historic context, so that's the Western Art Department and Eastern Art Department, 509 00:50:55,630 --> 00:50:59,110 which for our contemporary works is sometimes really tricky because I mean, 510 00:50:59,110 --> 00:51:04,270 I mean, for these Japanese photographs, it's a Japanese artist who's based in Japan, so you could argue it's eastern art. 511 00:51:04,270 --> 00:51:10,240 But with Ibrahim El Sa Hali, You know, is he an eastern artist, is he a Western artist. 512 00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:15,640 But in the end, it doesn't really matter if it's part of the collection. You know, nobody else needs to know if they sit. 513 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:20,460 in the Western Art Department collection, or the eastern art department collection, 514 00:51:20,460 --> 00:51:24,580 GB: You know, internally, sometimes these things can shape collections for good or ill. 515 00:51:24,580 --> 00:51:30,820 These kinds of, you know, internal divisions. So I was just interested how it actually works. 516 00:51:30,820 --> 00:51:36,440 So what exhibition project are you working on next and what is next for you? 517 00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:37,910 LF: So there is. 518 00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:49,060 So I mentioned the Neo Expressionism collection before and I actually received that new collecting award two years ago by the art fund. 519 00:51:49,060 --> 00:51:51,550 And so that gave me some money. 520 00:51:51,550 --> 00:51:59,110 in order to do research and also to in order to acquire artworks and so acquired quite a few works over the last two years, 521 00:51:59,110 --> 00:52:04,300 but they haven't been shown. And so there's going to be a small exhibition in Gallery eight. 522 00:52:04,300 --> 00:52:10,750 So where we currently have the Dante exhibition next autumn. And so that's one project that I'm working on. 523 00:52:10,750 --> 00:52:15,760 And then after that, there's also a series of exhibitions which I'm working on called 'Ashmolean Now', 524 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:23,710 in which we invite UK based mid-career artists to react to the collections as well. 525 00:52:23,710 --> 00:52:31,540 So the first one is going to be two painters who have already come or actually one of them is coming next week. 526 00:52:31,540 --> 00:52:42,390 Flora Yukhnovich, an artist who's very interested in kind of baroque and rococo style and who creates these large scale paintings. 527 00:52:42,390 --> 00:52:46,810 But she's kind of the perfect candidate for, you know, doing something with the historic collections. 528 00:52:46,810 --> 00:52:50,790 So the idea is that we show these artists works and some of the existing works, 529 00:52:50,790 --> 00:52:55,260 but they always kind of make at least one work kind of in reaction to the museum. 530 00:52:55,260 --> 00:52:58,110 And so that's going to be a series with different artists. 531 00:52:58,110 --> 00:53:05,910 So they're all UK based, which kind of sounds a bit boring, but they try to kind of be very diverse and, you know, 532 00:53:05,910 --> 00:53:10,500 kind of looking at different artistic media and different artistic backgrounds, 533 00:53:10,500 --> 00:53:15,120 there are artists from different countries and who do all kinds of different works. 534 00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:24,000 GB: The exhibitions will include historic objects from the collections with the contemporary work? LF: and we don't know yet. 535 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,760 That might be, yeah, we haven't really decided details yet, 536 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:32,190 but I think it depends on the individual artists and on the individual works, but that's certainly possible. 537 00:53:32,190 --> 00:53:38,940 GB: Okay. Okay. Now I just wanted to also ask you about a short essay you recently had published in Aperture. 538 00:53:38,940 --> 00:53:45,420 I was interested in it because although it wasn't the only theme, one of the themes that you touched on was, 539 00:53:45,420 --> 00:53:50,910 I don't know, life in lockdown and how artists have responded to it in the kind of work that they have made. 540 00:53:50,910 --> 00:53:55,020 And this artist is a photographer named Anne Hardy, another British artist. 541 00:53:55,020 --> 00:53:59,280 I wonder if you might just say why you were attracted to that artist's work and when indeed, 542 00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:07,800 was that the reason why you were attracted because you were looking for a contemporary art responding to the lockdown experience that we've all had? 543 00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:14,730 LF: No, not really. That was not the reason I just came across her work and really liked it because it has 544 00:54:14,730 --> 00:54:21,300 that kind of micro versus macro kind of level that the photographs that I should say, 545 00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:25,230 they kind of look almost kind of like astronomic kind of pictures. 546 00:54:25,230 --> 00:54:30,630 But actually, she spoke about imitating 547 00:54:30,630 --> 00:54:33,480 dirt particles and things like that. 548 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:39,210 And so that aesthetic that she's able to create by looking at these small structures that, 549 00:54:39,210 --> 00:54:44,250 you know, that was something that really fascinated me and that I thought was interesting. 550 00:54:44,250 --> 00:54:50,160 GB: Do you often write outside the institutions, so to speak? It is that encouraged by the Ashmolean? 551 00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:55,800 LF: Yes, it's well, it's encouraged, and at least it's OK. 552 00:54:55,800 --> 00:55:06,570 You know, it's OK if it's somewhere like Aperture because they're, you know, independent. 553 00:55:06,570 --> 00:55:13,010 But if it's, for example, in some national institutions, you shouldn't really write for galleries because it's saying that, you know, 554 00:55:13,010 --> 00:55:16,620 you as a kind of curator of the national institution, are kind of, you know then 555 00:55:16,620 --> 00:55:23,910 elevating the work if you will, which at the Ashmolean, they're not so strict about this. 556 00:55:23,910 --> 00:55:29,520 I guess again, because we're part of the University. So I mean, writing in general is encouraged, whatever it is. 557 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,150 And I really enjoye that. And do it quite a lot. 558 00:55:33,150 --> 00:55:40,680 GB: Yeah. I mean, it's not uncommon for contemporary art specialists to be, you know, scouting studios and looking at young artists work. 559 00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:45,750 So do you find that takes up a certain amount of your professional life? LF: Yes, for sure. 560 00:55:45,750 --> 00:55:54,630 And I think for that reasons, it's actually good that I'm that I'm based in London because, yeah, there are so many artists in the city here. 561 00:55:54,630 --> 00:55:58,500 And so, you know, they're sometimes at the moment not as much. 562 00:55:58,500 --> 00:56:04,290 But usually there are dinners and kind of events and gallery openings and yes, studio visits, as you say. 563 00:56:04,290 --> 00:56:13,230 And yeah, I really like that part of my job, you know, just the dialogue with artists is something that I really, really enjoy. 564 00:56:13,230 --> 00:56:16,830 GB: It sounds like it's been central to your practise. 565 00:56:16,830 --> 00:56:24,480 GB: We've just had another interesting conversation for the past hour. 566 00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,560 Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your experience and knowledge. 567 00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:34,110 It's kind of remarkable how you've immersed yourself in Japanese culture for quite so long. 568 00:56:34,110 --> 00:56:36,480 And of course, we're all benefiting from it now. 569 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:43,410 Looking at the Tokyo exhibition, so I encourage everybody listening if they haven't already to go along and see that exhibition themselves, 570 00:56:43,410 --> 00:56:52,320 and no doubt they'll have their own questions. And you can always run into Lena in the street and interrogate her about decisions, 571 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,680 and we'll look forward to seeing the next round of exhibitions that you'll be involved with. So. 572 00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:01,630 Thanks very much. And I hope I'll see you around very soon. 573 00:57:01,630 --> 00:57:53,937 Yes, thank you. Thanks for having me. Bye bye. Bye.